Transcript of JRE MMA Show #170 with Michael "Venom" Page

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We're up. All right. Mvp in the house. Yes. The most enigmatic, difficult dude to solve in all of MMA. That's you, man.

Bro, you know what? I want to start simply because what you have done for me, specifically, I get a lot of criticism, a lot of hate, and especially obviously jumping when I first got into the MMA world. New to me, I'm just like, Okay, let me just be myself, do my thing. First fight goes well, land this crazy kick, goes viral, and I get nothing but hate, hate, hate, hate, hate champion, my style, champion in the points element of things. I just appreciate you for that.

Oh, my pleasure, brother. I appreciate you. It's almost like we called for you because there was a time in the early days of MMA, in the early 2000s, where I was like, this is what's missing. What's missing is point fighters, and people would mock me. I'd be like, No, I've sparred with these dudes. You can't hit them. It's a different thing. I'm like, They have a very specific skill, that skill of closing distance and being elusive. It's not like any other sport. It's almost like fencing and MMA and martial arts combined.

I always tell people that most of the combat sports in terms of kickboxing, the full contact side of things, is more to do with the... There's a fixation on power, knocking people out. Whereas our element is just the speed element. It's getting in and getting out, not getting in touch. Like you said, the tag feel, fencing, similar footwork. And But yeah, just not many people had decided to cross over to any full contact world, really. And he had the likes of Wonderboy Thompson.

Raymond Daniels. Raymond Daniels. You and Raymond were the most prominent ones in Him and Glory. Of course, you.

Yeah. Well, he did a little bit MMA. A little bit MMA. Mmm.

But you're more prominent in MMA. The point was that this was an element that I remember when I was doing Taekwondo and I would fight in tournaments, I would occasionally fight in point fighting I'd fight a guy like Mafia Holloway or one of these guys that were really good. I'm like, This is crazy. This is such a crazy skill. Very different. When I saw MMA where a lot of guys were just real flat footed and waiting, I'm like, There's a giant opening here. And then you came along and you really were the proof of concept. I was like, okay, this is it. You get a world champion at that who figures all the other stuff out because essentially striking is striking. You can learn throwing leg It makes differently. You can learn different stances and movements. The grappling is the big heat. That's the big hurdle. But once you can solve the takedown defense and some of the grappling hurdles, and you've actually got some mission victories, then you got a real problem because every fight starts standing up. Exactly. Every fight starts standing up with a big ass fucking cage. It's a big ass cage.

And I see guys like Kevin Holland. He's like, What the fuck do I do with this guy?

He hated every moment of I could feel it. But that's just part of my style is that frustrating people because it's just so unfamiliar. For someone like yourself, you would be in there, whether you're successful or not, you'd understand what's happening and you'd be calm enough still to be like, Okay, I need to know how to figure this out because I've experienced this before. For someone that's never experienced them, because there's few of us in the MMA world, who do you go to to train?

There's very few people that are really good at that.

Like I said, WNDY boy Thompson, he, a friend of mine, obviously me and him and us getting on. And he's even said people have contacted him like, Oh, yeah, I'm fighting MVP. I want to train with you. He's like, I want MVP to win. I can't help you, bro. Can't do anything.

It's good for the sport. It really is because think about there's certain techniques just come along like the calf kick, and all of a sudden How is this... People have been kicking legs for so long. How is this kicking a different spot on the leg revolution? We need to see that. I think the introduction of you is going to make a lot of these guys that are high-level point guys go, There's a spot there for me. Because there's always an advantage in the fact that every round starts standing up. As long as you have takedown defense, every round starts in your realm. And your realm is different than all the other stand-up realms. It's totally different. And if a guy is a plotting guy and he thinks, Oh, this is my world, that's not your world. It's your world against someone who agrees to fight the way you fight.

A hundred %. And I always say that because I've come up against guys. I was like, Man, he's got a big hit, a big punch on him. And I agree. I'm like, Yeah, I get it. But power only means something if you land. And my whole element is not being touched.

It's also fucking with people's heads. One of One of the things he did during the Jared cannon ear fight, after you hit him, you were like, Calm down. Calm down. I was like, Oh, no. Because you imagine just getting popped. Your eyes are running, your nose hurts. And this dude standing in front of you going, Calm down. Calm down. I'm like, No, he didn't. Oh, no. It's psychological warfare.

But that's the end. Obviously, that's part of my personality coming out and the entertaining side of me. And a lot obviously added to the criticism that I would get, which because of how I would make my opponents feel in terms of their frustration and then obviously the antics on top of it, so many people... The main term that came with me was like, 'Oh, he's fighting Cans. He's fighting Cans. My whole career was like, 'Oh, he's fighting Cans. ' But I always say to people is I'm just making it seem a lot less difficult than it actually is. These guys are super talented fighters. I'm just not fighting on the same wavelength and timing as them. As you said, these guys that plot around, they're so used to it. So when they're fighting other people, it looks very even. And when they're fighting somebody that they just can't get their hands on and they're getting frustrated on top of that. So It's the mental side, the physical side.

And you have a lot of power, so there's consequences.

Yeah, there's consequences.

It's not like your tippy-tappy, hip-patten them. Every now and then, the cyborg fight was one of the craziest knockouts in all of MMA history.

You know, One thing I actually wanted to do, I actually brought some gifts for you, but one of the things I actually wanted to bring for you was-Don't tell me you brought a piece of his head. He wouldn't let me have that. I actually wanted to... We Basically, I had a poker ball come. It was a very specific one, and they messed up on delivery. But I'm going to get it to you in Vegas. Okay. So when we go over to Vegas, I'm just making sure. Beautiful. I get that to you because, again, it's something that you've spoken about with me, and it's a big part of my history in MMA, just that cyborg fight.

That was the most gruesome injury I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of broken bones. I've never seen someone with a caved-in head.

The doctors were saying that what we were hearing back from, they said he's only ever seen that in a car accident, never in MMA.

That is so crazy. And that was his last fight. And I know after the fight, he was like, We're going to fight again. The doctor's like, Hey.

Yeah, because I think he was... That's a rap. Someone sent me something where he was supposed to fight again. I'm not sure what happened there, but he didn't... It was crazy. How could you fight again after that? What made it... I felt very bad, obviously, at the time as well. But then I didn't see him for another two years.

There he is right there. Boom.

That was just crazy. And the sound that was-It's only when I watched it back.

Give me the sound, Jamie. It's hard to breathe. Just about everything you need in a fight, you lose off the liver shot. It can't come. It runs into the jump in and it's over. It sounds like a baseball bat on a pumpkin. You know what I mean? Just what?

Yeah. The thing is, I didn't know. I keep telling everybody I didn't know what happened because obviously, you celebrated throwing a poker ball at him afterwards. I did not know.

You thought it was just a knockout.

Yeah, this was a knockout. And obviously, because I'm kicking his legs, I'm assuming maybe I broke his nose because I can see he's not out, but he's in pain. It must be something like that. It's only the next day that I found out. But, yeah, it was a bad one. That was a bad one. Yeah, it was a very bad one. And the thing is, like I said, I met him, I want to say, two and a half years later down the line. Obviously, this clip is just going crazy online and so on and so forth. I felt awkward. I didn't want to... But also, he had come over for another MMA show, but with one of his students. But one of his students was fighting one of my At the beginning, my coaches was like, 'Oh, do you want to go and, at some point, go and see him and say hello? ' I was like, Yeah, please. I'd love to because that's the last time I saw him. ' The fight happens and my teammate is known for his leg locks and breaks his student's leg. So I'm like, 'For fuck's sake? ' Oh, God.

So the officer was like, Do you want to go and see him? ' I was like, 'Oh, yeah, I'll I just felt like I needed to. Sure. I walked into the room. His guy's obviously upset for losing. He's getting sorted out by the medics, and he's sitting there, just looks at me and I'm like, Hey. What do you say? Like, unlucky. I was just like, Hey, he's like, shook my hand. I could just feel the energy wasn't right. It just wasn't the right time, but I didn't know when I would get to see him again. And I haven't again since. So, yeah, Yeah, it's just one of those things. I just felt bad. But what do you do?

There's nothing.

Yeah, what do you do? What do you do?

The guy's got a broken leg. You broke his head.

Just wanted to stay the fuck away from you and your true.

I mean, at least you're nice about it and friendly. It is what it is.

It's such interesting because you've trained with Marius, my coaches, one of my coaches, Marius, and obviously, he says to say hello. Tell us a lot. I love that dude. He said he trained with you guys. I think you guys trained for about four years with Eddie Bravo as well.

Yeah, I've known him for 20 years.

Crazy, crazy. Crazy. Obviously, that's a big part of my history now with them, them two, the brothers, Alexis and Marius.

Were you at the gym when Lee- Lee. When Lee Marius was?

No, I was just after. Luckily. But interestingly, though, at the time he was around, I was still very heavily focused on the points fight and kickboxing. But a friend of mine was training at shoot and he was like, You need to come and train with these guys. These guys are serious. But for me, MMA was just never going to be a thing that I'd ever see myself in. Really? I've always seen it as, I guess, your average fan back in the day and some fans now of ask brutal, man. And again, I'm a points fighter. I don't see myself being good enough or tough enough to fight these guys.

What changed?

Obviously, Mark had a successful career in the kickboxing, but it didn't really go anywhere. It's like you're fighting the same people. The amount of times me and Raymond have fought, We were like some of the top two guys. We're both in the competition. We both walk in the room, everyone was like, Oh, my God, are these guys going to fight? We were the guys. But I'm fighting the same people and it's just everything. Everyone hoping that you're going to lose or your fans are supporting you. And then I come back to reality, come off a plane, I've traveled, I've fought all the whole week or whatever, I've won a world title and I've come back home and then nothing. I come back home to just me being myself, just me being me, which I'm okay with. No recognition. But there's no recognition. There was no sponsorship. I paid to do everything and I loved it. And if I could choose the route again, I'd still do it because I absolutely loved it. But there comes a point I'm getting older and it comes a point where I have to... And I'm now starting to... At the time, I'm a kid, but now it's getting to the point where I have to work.

Now it's like, I can't do this forever, but At the same time, I know I want to compete for a living. I just didn't know in what. So then I said to myself, Okay, cool. I need to take a step away from this. I know while I'm in this, this will be a distraction. I'm not going to be able to focus on the thing because another competition that I'm going to want to win is going to come up and it's going to turn my attention. So I said, Look, I'm going to... I said to everyone, I'm retired. I thought, Let me say it to as many people as possible so then it's hard for me to turn back on it. So I'm just like, yeah, I'm retiring there, not fine again. Yeah, this is my last fight. And I said, cool. Started to go around looking at boxing gyms, looking at full contact kickboxing, looking at MMA gyms. And the first gym I actually went to was in Miami, coconut Crete, American Top Team. Because my sister used to live in that area because I got siblings over in America as well. So came out there.

In my head at the time, there's only few people from the UK that was doing anything in MMA. So when I was like, maybe I'm going to try MMA, I was like, obviously, I have to go to America. I'm lucky enough to have siblings that live over there. So I'm good. So get to America, get to American top team. I go in there, I'm like, this is where I'm going to start. I've met a couple of the coaches and just general chit-chat. I didn't tell them who I was or anything. Just saw the vibe. The facilities are amazing. I was like, Yeah, this is going to be my new life. And then I get back to England and a good friend of mine, Marvin Francis, was like, Just in case, just have a look at some gyms over here. You don't know. Just Because obviously I got things to sort out before I can just make the full move. So while you're doing that, let's have a look at a couple of gyms. And we did some research. We went to a couple of the Gracie gyms, went to a few other gyms that I was around.

Then I found London shoot fighters. I hadn't done any research. And at this time, I personally wasn't watching MMA at all. The only person I knew-What year is this? So I'd have been, what, 24? So what's that about? It's over 12, 13 years back. And I was trying to say that only guys in the UK would have been... Brad Picket was fighting. Solidfighter.

Solidfighter.

Michael Bisping was fighting, and nobody had achieved anything of big quality from there. Everything was in America.

Was Bisping still living in England or had he moved to America?

I think he was still in England. Yeah. But again, I was only learning it as I got more into it. But initially, I just thought, I made the decision without actually researching anything, which is very much like me. I'll just jump in headfirst. I'll figure it out afterwards. I literally said to myself, Okay, cool. I've got to London shoot fighters. The only person I knew was Chuck Liddell. That's what I've actually seen. I was like, this guy is just knocking people out. I could relate to that. I was like, he's a striker. Everything else I didn't really care for. I was a typical fan. When they got on the floor, I was like, Oh. I was like, for fuck's sake. Stand up. Stand them up. I've never been to a show, anything. But he's a guy that I like watching and I want I made a decision, I want to do it. Cool. Started in London shoot fires. And for some reason, the guys there... Because I've had good coaching in my upbringing, so I feel like I can hear sense. When I've gone to a place, I'm hearing how they're coaching and what they're saying, and I'm like, it just makes sense to me.

I was like, cool. I'm going to start here. I still want to go to America, but I'll start here for now and then just see where it goes. And I just fell in love with the place.

Was that the first time you did any grappling at all?

Any grappling at all. Wow. Didn't do... All I was doing every day was applauding people because I was tapping every two seconds. Every 2 seconds.

It's frustrating, right?

But I loved it, though.

Oh, you have a good mindset.

Yeah, it was weird. I enjoyed the fact that I'm looking at this guy like, if I saw you on the street in my head, I'm destroying you. But this guy just twisted me up into a pretzel.

It's a humiliating feeling.

Oh, so humiliating. But again, I crave... If I go back to the point side, from about... You met my brother outside. Him, He's the oldest of my siblings, sorry, of the boys. My sister's the oldest, then it's my brother. I got two other brothers than me. And at the time, we were fighting around, but they were winning everything. I used to get my ass kicked everywhere we went. Really? And this is every single weekend.

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For me, he was the more talented one. But I mean, every single weekend we're driving to Birmingham, to Manchester, to Scotland. We did trips everywhere. My dad started a gym and he was going around everywhere. Every weekend, it's like three hours that way, four hours this way. Coming back and I'm just got a boss lip and the medals are just like, they got all the medals and they're talking about how they spin, kick some guy and they did this. I'm just like, Yeah, cool story. I got destroyed for four, five years. When I I got to a qualifier's. It's in Birmingham. It was an IASCA qualifier's, and I managed to win that, which that in itself was success for me. I'm like, Oh, man, I qualified to go to the World Championships, I've already done well. Everyone else was supposed to do it. They're good enough to have the expectation of themselves. So then I get to the World Championships, and the way they seed fighters in the US was very different to the UK at the time. So I had one fight, another fight, another fight, and I'm winning, and I'm happy. I'm like, I must be in the finals already.

And then they're like, Okay, bring the Cedars fighters in. And there's a shitload of fighters, join your mat. And I'm like, Oh. My dad would tell me, he's like, Yeah, I think you're in the semis. I think you're in the quarters. And then he was like, Bro, just keep fighting. He couldn't work out. How did it work? How did it work? I don't know. Seriously, I I genuinely don't remember. I just remember just feeling tired, and I didn't understand why this was still going on, because in the competitions, three, four fights, you're in a final. I was at least 10 fights deep and still felt like I was fighting.

All in a day?

In a day. Wow. Again, the Ayasca World Championship is in Orlando, Florida, and it was, at the time, the biggest points kickboxing competition. So there's thousands and thousands of competitors, kids, adults, doing forms, doing katters and all this stuff. Then you had the points fighting, the light contact fighting, and that was it. It just all day. Then it literally got to this, Okay, I won a fight and the guy was like, Okay, you're in the final next. The referee said that to me and I was like, I can't believe I'm in the final. And this guy was very good. I can't remember his name. He was young. I was, I think it was 12 or 11 at the time. I won the fight. I just collapsed to my back. I was just like, Oh, my God. Everyone ran in there because again, nobody expected that of me. I remember going in there, the trophy itself was 6 feet tall. And in my head, I was like, I just want one in my house. I managed to win that. But something, that competition clicked. So all the times I was getting beaten up, all the competitions I was getting destroyed at, it wasn't even close, I was getting destroyed.

I won this competition and I went back home and every person I used to get destroyed by, I was smoking them. Something was different.

Instantaneously?

There was a weird shift that just went click. Wow. And all the kicks that I'd walk into Phase first. I was like, Oh, actually, I can do this.

I was like, wow, you entered into the matrix.

I'd literally... To the point where I saw when I went back home, it was like 12. And for the year of that circuit, I didn't lose a fight. And this is from getting walked. That's crazy. And I'm fighting all the same guys that I grew up with.

And they must be like, What the hell?

Yeah, what the hell is going on here? Then when I was 13, I asked my dad, I was like, can I please fight in the seniors? And the seniors are 18 plus. And he was like... And he said it to me, he said it to me later on. He was like, as a coach, I knew you could. As your dad, I was like, hell no. And I begged him Every competition we got, I was like, Please, can I fight in the seniors? Please. And there was a big British Championship competition. And I beg, I was like, Please. He was like, You can do this one. And again, I don't think he... Remember, these guys are 18 plus, but all different sizes as well. I don't think... He knew I'll do well, but not as well as I did. So I won my senior division for my weight. And like I said, these are big men. But the problem is, in this competition, specifically, when you win your section, you go into the Grand Championship. And I'm like, Dad, you got to let me go. He's like, No, this is different now because they're the winners of Their division.

That was your weight division. Now, these guys are the winners of their own weight. You can't do this. I beg him. And I beat everybody and got to the final, and the final was really, really close. And I felt like I got robbed. And even my dad was like, he could never tell me no after that because I destroyed some of the best fighters in the UK at the time.

Do you think it was a confidence thing of having gone through that grueling tournament and proving that you could do it, and now you didn't have doubts in your mind anymore? Or was it you had just seen so many different high levels of competition that maybe your own expectations had risen? What was it that made that instantaneous shift? Because it's one thing to go and compete and do really well all of a sudden, and now I'm competing. But then you went and you were doing it against people that were normally beating you, and you're fucking them up. That's like a 50 % shift. That's a giant shift.

I would say one thing, obviously, I hated losing as anybody would, especially as a kid. And we also, and I think it's for all of us, we wasn't allowed. So a lot of the kids would fight first and then the seniors would fight. But because we were We all of our down together, we stayed the whole competition until the seniors were finished so we can drive back. A lot of the other kids were messing around when obviously, guys that I've known since I was eight years old that I'm still good friends with now because we were the kids playing with each other afterwards, just being all cool. But my dad was like, No, you represent me. You sit down and watch. So as much as we could play a little bit when he wasn't looking, but we had to try and get back to the match to make sure we were watching people. I feel like I'm a visual learner, and I feel like that helped me become that visual learner. As much as I was getting my ass kicked, I was also spending time watching amazing athletes at the time.

I think it's an important thing to mention that at that time, there wasn't video readily available like there is today. Exactly. I remember the first time I went to the Taekwondo World Cup, it was in Colorado Springs in, not 2000, 1980, I think it was '96. And the first time I went, I immediately got better just by seeing them, just by seeing everybody. I just went as a spectator. I hadn't beaten anybody to qualify for the nationals. So when I went there, the whole experience was just absorption. And I came back and I was much better, much better. I'd never seen those guys live, but my expectations for competition, my expectations for movement and speed, everything had risen. And at the time, I was 18. So when you're 18, your brain just... You just absorb. You just absorb.

I think even more so when you're younger. Yes.

Oh, yeah, when you're a little kid.

My first competition, I was five years old. So that is just many years I'd be in that body.

That's incredible, though, because your body develops with that. I started a little late. I started karate when I was 14, and then wrestling and Taekwondo when I was 15. But I wish I started earlier because I was with these guys that were younger, and they're a little bodies had grown, stretching, and they'd grown, punching and kicking. You'd develop into that.

Funny you say that. That's where my name came from. So Venom came from when I was nine, and The only kids that was in my dad's class at the time, mainly, were a few others because at the time, it was basically one class. He didn't really separate the kids and adults. It was just one class. So I'm trying my best, throwing everything in to hit adults. They're not moving, but I'm trying my best to just get some reaction. And then when I started hitting people my own size, even though I was losing because they were... Obviously, I was tall for my age as well. So if I was fighting kids slightly more naturally developed than me, but I had a whack on me.

That's a great way to put it.

You know what I mean? Even though I wasn't beating these guys, these guys were just way too fast for me. But when I hit them, they felt it. And it was one of my... Again, Marvin was literally just like, Hey, you got some venom in you, man. ' And we was very into like, kung fu movies back in the day. I was very creative mind. I loved just... Even with my martial arts, I learned a job like this, and now I have to add something. I can't do things conventional. I've never liked to do it. If everyone's walking that way, I'm like, I want to see what's over there. I don't know what's wrong with me.

Or what's right with you.

Or what's right with me. But I just got that. I was just curious Curious and creative. There's a film called The Five Deadly Venoms, old-school, old-school, kung fu classic. He would be like, Yeah, Five Deadly Venoms, let's make a move for each thing because he'd be like, Scorpion or Toad. I would make up weird moves and try to add it in. And that was always my thing. I'd see something in the movies and I'm like, I'm going to try it in there. This is all while I'm still getting beaten up, by the way, as well. But that never left me. So even when I started beating all these people now. I'm doing it with the style and flair of what more can I do? You know what I mean?

It's so perfect for martial arts for you, for MMA, because a lot of MMA is pattern recognition. You get accustomed to certain types of movements. I know this guy is going to do this. The calf kick is going to be available. I'm going to faint with this, and I'm going to throw that. I'm going to shoot that double here because I know he's going to come with the overhand, right? All these patterns, you don't have normal patterns. So you're moving around, your hands are down, you're sideways. And they have to make up new patterns as they go along. So they have to think. It's such an advantage. Yeah.

And I always tell people that the first time they're actually really going to experience this style is on the night. And you have to figure it out on the night.

Because there's not enough guys that have what you can do that also compete in MMA. There's might be five or six in the whole world, which is nuts. It's nuts. I had been saying this for decades. I'm like, This is the one thing that's missing. And then when you came over, I was like, See? This is what I'm saying. This is crazy.

You can't even hit him. It's weird, though. It's a blessing and a curse. Blessing, obviously, having the advantages of a fight. But sparring, headache. Earlier, a lot of people wanted to like, Let me see what this is about. Then the word spreads quite quickly. And I struggle with sparring. I think starting to come back now, people are a bit more willing, but I struggled with sparring. You just couldn't get sparring. Couldn't get sparring. And I see it from other people's point of view. It's like, well, I'm not going to fight anybody like that. So why am I coming over?

Yeah, but if you saw that, with your mindset, you would be like, I got to figure out what the fuck he's doing.

A hundred %. And my teammates are forced to. And a lot of them, they even say I'd spar you and then I go spa someone else, and they feel so slow because when I'm with you, my eyes are like this. I'm forced to be ultra alert, and then I go in someone's front of punch of the ass.

That's the thing, too. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. Your style is exhausting because you always have to be at high alert. There's no moment... Because there's so many times where you've done a shift in rhythm and it looks like you're slowing down and then you explode and crack people. You've done that so successfully so many times that if they've watched any tape, they know there's no moments where you could catch your breath. There's no moments. You're always putting pressure on people. You're always fainting. In the feints alone. See, people don't even know. When you're standing there, it looks like you're just standing there, but you're standing there and a guy's fainting and you never know when he's going to actually launch.

Your whole body is constantly tense. You can't breathe. That's just their energy bar just doing this without anything happening. Without anything, without any kicks landing. No punch, which is actually why I'm actually a big fan of Tom Aspenal as well. Oh, yeah. You don't really see that anywhere full stop, but definitely not in a heavyweight division.

No heavyweight moves like him.

No one moves at the end.

He moves like a 185.

It's crazy. With that explosive and that power, it's crazy.

Crazy speed for a heavyweight. Crazy speed. I love to see it. That's why the John Jones thing was being... John is, if not the greatest fighter of all time, but he's not the fastest guy in the world. Yeah. He hasn't, but he's just so complete, and his fight IQ is off the charts. Off the charts. Very well-rounded. Very.

Very well-rounded.

And wild. Opens up his world title fight with Shogun with a flying knee.

Yeah, crazy.

Wild. Just believes in himself, goes It goes for it.

Belief, confidence. Yes, goes for it.

I thought that was a complicated matchup for him. It is. Because that guy is not easy to get to the ground, Aspinal, and he's fast as fuck, and he's big. He's a legit 250 pounds, natural, he doesn't need anything. There's no way he can make 205 ever. He's fucking big.

Yeah, I got to train with him and I went down there and I was like, This guy, he's a tank.

It's a tank. So that's a problem. That's a problem when you're not really a heavyweight. As great as John is, and I think John beats most heavyweights that have ever existed. Francis is another problem. That's another problem because you're dealing with a real 265-pound, solid, natural, grew up in the sandmines.

His story is crazy. His story is something else.

When he told it on the podcast, he told the whole story of him going to Morocco and getting to Europe. That's a movie, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A crazy movie. I'm surprised nobody has jumped on that.

I'm surprised, too. Someone needs to. It's nuts.

Yeah, we'll do it.

But when him, he was a child working digging sand in Cameroon.

It's crazy.

Incredible. And then you have incredible genetics. And then you have just this fierce mindset from all the shit that guy's been through. That was another one. So there was two fights that I was really interested in with John at Everyway. Once he won the title, I was like, God, bring back Francis, please.

I just don't see that happening.

Sort out your difference. I wish I was running shit. I feel like me and him get along great. I just feel like, I don't know. I think sometimes it's the executives and the fighters. Dana generally gets along with people, like most fighters he gets along with. But him and Francis, it didn't work. I love the guy.

I've never- I've never got at a I'm not sure if it's meeting him, but he just seems very sweet, like a big friendly giant outside of the cage.

Yeah, exactly.

Big friendly giant.

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It's a fucking great guy. I'm always saying it's my experience with him.

But as a fighter, I'm like, Jesus, I can make it happen.

Keep him around. You got a gem.

That's more important.

It's an extraordinary gem. You want to talk about sellability. You want to talk about marketability. What's more marketable than a giant man who destroys everyone? He's the guy.

Yeah, so true.

Drove me nuts.

I know. Drove me nuts. I think everybody And I think that's added to people's frustrations with the Tom Aspinal fight that happened then after as well.

Well, that was not on the UFC side or on Tom's side. Look, John's a lizard. He knows how to play all games. In one of the games, he plays, I'm retiring. No, I'm back. Oh, now I'm hunting after you. It doesn't matter for him. He's going to get the same amount of money. He's still John Jones. It's all mind fuckery. Keep you guessing. And meanwhile, John's deadlift in every day.

You You know what I mean?

And partying. He's just so wild. But it's like that fight would have been amazing to see. But to me, the real-So that means it probably could still happen, though. I hope so. I genuinely hope so. You know they were talking about doing it at the White House?

Yeah, and then Dana said that.

Dana was like, I can't trust John to show up and be fine. Which is fair. You got to say, there's been a few times where things went awry.

However, it would be great.

Do it on a card where you have 12 other fights. That's what I say. Who gives a fuck? Let's see if it happens. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. That's true. I would be, let's go crazy. Let's fucking go all in.

I guess what would happen is that fight overshadows many fights. So if it doesn't happen, even though the fights are amazing, Still, people are like, it does.

But so what? I don't know who you would do. Ilio Tuporia versus Justin Gechi or something like that. Something crazy like that. You'd have a few other fights. It depends on what happens this weekend with Pereira and on It depends on what happens with Marab and Cory Sanhagen. Those are two very complicated fights. Beast. Yeah, very good fights.

Marab is a beast, man. Beast. He's such a beast.

Dude, he was talking to... I forgot who he was talking to. He did an interview. Oh, he was on Mighty Mouse's podcast. No sauna, no cold plunge, no stretching. Doesn't do any of that. Doesn't do any of that. Just no warmup. Shows up. I just show up, start to train. Just shows up. Shows up and fucking hits the gas. He He stays up to 1, 2 o'clock in the morning. His whole routine is totally contrary to everything that you've heard before. This is how he weight cuts. I stop eating. He just stops eating. He stops eating on Tuesday. He just stops eating, stops drinking water, keeps working out. The man's mind is a giant factor that I think a lot of people are looking at as cardio, which is an insane weapon. Of course, But the man's mind, the toughness, the mental toughness, that is Fort Knox. You ain't getting in there. You ain't getting in there. Remember that time? Who was it? He was mounted. I forget who got him, but he got him in a mounted guillotine, and he didn't... I think it might have been Ricky Simone. Or was somebody else had him, and he got out, and then he won the fight.

But he was being choked unconscious for two minutes. Yeah, and he's like, yeah. And he's kicking his legs and moving around. He's like, There's no quit in that guy.

Fucking zero quit. You have to put him out.

Zero quid. In the Marlin Mariah's fight, he was basically out on his feet in the first round.

Yeah.

And he just came back and stopped him. He's a monster.

He's a beast.

And he keeps getting better. Yeah. You feel like, Oh, a guy like that is so good. Look how good he is. He's better than everybody. No, no, no, no, no. He's still getting better. Yeah. He's not done. He's a project. He's like, What can the human mind force the human body to do?

How young is he now?

He's 34, I believe, which is in that lightweight It's a little bit more of a problem in the heavier weight classes, but I don't see any slump.

Like you said, his mind is- His mind is a fucking steel trap. But it's funny you said that because I don't really have structure either. Like I said, the weight cut, I do, but that's because I came in with no understanding of weight cut, and London Street was like, You do this.

You look so big for 17. How the fuck did you do that? How much are you cutting when you went to 170?

So even now, I'm massive now.

Yeah, you look like, let me guess, 220?

What are you weight right now? Yeah, it's about 215. Because I was going to do it in KG.

We never adopted that. So stupid. It's a way better system.

But I've never struggled to get down, though, because, again, I was just told. I guess it's ignorance as well, but I was just told to do these things, and it's like, okay, you do it.

When you start, say you get a call from the UFC.

Six to eight weeks out.

Okay. So you're not going to accept any two-week fights?

No. Well, it depends on the fight, and it depends on where I'm always training.

But middleweight, maybe you would.

Middleweight, yeah.

You have taken some short notice fights.

Yeah, for middleweight, which was the first one. It was the first one or the second one I did. The last fight, maybe. But I would take short notice fight depending on where I am. In training. In training. But I just like to have a rough idea. Even right now, it's like trying to get... I'm bugging people. Because I've come from a circuit where we fight weekends. Every weekend we're somewhere. It keeps you sharp. Yeah. And then this is probably the most frustrating thing for me. Obviously, started in the Bellator and you're training all the time. Then you have a fight and then you're training. And a lot of my fights, I don't take too much damage. So I'm ready now. Give me a week off and I can come back. And then it's months and months. I'm like, Who am I fighting? Who's this?

The The problem is you're a hard sell. When people get a call, you're like, Shit, I'm going to have to learn how to dance in six weeks.

Fuck. And that's the thing. So I'm hearing, and I assume I assumed wrongly that when I get to the UFC, that is going to disperse. Everyone's going to be gunning for me. I'm going to show everybody that this guy is a can. He only fought people that weren't his level. It's still the same. I think, and obviously, the more I fight, the less people are putting their hands up. I think even Whittaker said, which I respect, to be fair, he came out. I don't even know. Wait, somebody sent me something, but he had said, Yeah, I would it be interesting to make in that fight? Yeah.

At this point in his career, that's just a setback waiting to happen. Yeah, it's not. And his style is very similar to his style.

Exactly, yeah. That's a real problem. I'm a massive fan of his as well. I love his... Obviously, he can tie in the wrestling way better. Yeah, I love his style.

I do, too. You got to realize, that guy, he's been in it for a long time. He had two fucking wars with Yoel Romero when Yoel Romero was made out of metal.

Yeah, that guy's son. He's still fighting. Still? Yeah, Yeah.

He's 48 years old, fucking people up, looking like he's 30.

I would have to swap what he's doing in a second. You know what? He wouldn't.

When he was in here, he came in the studio. It was the most amazing thing because Joey Diaz translated for him. It was him and Joey Diaz going back and forth. Joey's Cuban as well, of course. When he was here, he had to be 230 pounds. His neck starts at the top of his ears. One of the things that he said, he was talking about the Cuban system.

He goes, You have to be on my jean.

Because he was talking about the system of you get more food if you're at a higher caliber of athlete.

Just to get more food.

The athletes, yeah, man. The athletes that are the lower caliber, they eat a day. In his caliber, he's eating three times a day. He's like, So every day, every day, they're coming for you. You have to be on my chin. And I was like, Oh, my God. And he had to look in his eyes, man. Bro, we are soft in the West, bro. We're so soft in the West. What the hell is this? I'm not a fan of communism. I don't believe in it. But damn, it creates a fucking beast. Alexander Karelin. I don't know if you get this There's two things you don't get that with. There's substances for sure taking place. And then there's also a regimen that they have, both the Cuban system and the Russian system, where they had figured out the balance between unbelievable hard work but technical ability and recovery. They didn't go meathead style. In America, we went meathead style, and we burnt a lot of dudes out, but the dudes who survived were just the killers of the killers. But they probably could have made more killers like the The same as the Russians did if they did it more technically.

It's the same. So again, shoots. They're the first MMA gym in the UK. I think it's like '95, '97, '95.

I got a London Shoe fighters T-shirt from 2003. Yeah, crazy. I couldn't find it. I was looking for it today.

So like I said, they've been around. I'm going to tell him. They've been around a long time, and obviously, I think they fought every major competition that's ever been out. They've done boxing with the likes of David Hay, Derek Cheturah now. Even Dylan White did a kickboxing fight with them. Myself, Lee Murray, John Hathaway, even Carlos Fumola was the first check guy before Yuri to be in the UFC. That was them guys. They done a lot, but they're the meathead style. They are like, yeah, everybody will learn.

Anything to produce Lee Murray. Yeah. You got that That guy in your gym. It's a problem. Just the echoes of that guy's style will permeate through that gym for decades.

That guy is just an angry man. He was an angry man. At the same time, you needed somebody because my coaches are beast. You needed that militant force to be able to manage that and cope with that. And that's what my coaches, they are. People used to come to our gym and we're just like, who's ready? And if you don't do, I'll do it myself. That's the one thing I always respected about them. Even with the fitness machines that we had to do, the scores are crazy. I see people in other gyms posting their scores. I'm like, Is that it? And they're celebrating it. And I'm like, We're forced to do this? The hell is that? But he'd push you, but he'd also do it himself. He'd jump on a machine, that's a glamor. Just smoke it, five-fives, back-to-back, and then running and this and that. We have to do all of it because he's doing it. And he's not doing He hasn't got a fight.

That's the way you lead.

Yeah.

And he led that way. Especially with killers. Exactly. Yeah, that's the problem.

They demand respect.

Right. And they have to know that you're real.

Exactly. Yeah.

Otherwise, you're just some pontificator on the sidelines with a fucking clipboard. Fuck off, bitch.

Which is more nowadays. I'm seeing a lot of... And to be fair, I'm a fan of a lot of these guys, the fight and nerds. And again, I'm hearing that they had, I forget, a data analyst or something that's in. And he does like this. He studies this. And I think that's cool I feel like we should add elements of these things as well. But obviously, I've just grown up by this iron, Sharpe's iron.

It does. It's undeniable. Iron sharpens iron. There's outliers. There's a guy who will come out of a gym with nobody, and he's a monster. There's just a few of those guys that exist in the world. But for the most part, if you look at a gym like American Top Team, for example, look at how many animals have come out of that gym. So many. Pantosia, who I think does not get the credit he deserves. I think Pantosia is one of the greatest ever. Fucking guy's a monster. When that Japanese cat came over from Rising, and he just rag dolled him. He had no business. And then the Kai-Kai or France rematch, you see the difference between when they first fought and now the difference between a dominant all-time world champion. When he's on a card, people don't freak out. I'm like, God damn it. Just because he's 125 pounds, get that shit out of your head. You're watching one of the greatest ever.

But that's the thing. It's the marketability of people. This is what I knew I had to get right as well. I say that to my teammates as well. I'm like, Do you know how you're going to market yourself? If I beat people up, it's It doesn't always just... Unfortunately, it should, but that's not what's going to get you. If I have to, as a promotion owner and the person managing everything, I'm either going to pick you that's beating everybody, but nobody cares about, or this guy that's pretty decent, but everyone's making noise about. I'm going to pick that guy. So you need to be able to market yourself. And I knew that from the jump, and this is before, really, social media was massive, massive. It was a thing. But I said to myself, Okay, I need to look in. How am I going to market myself? Because we don't have that much time on the mic. The interviews at the time, I don't feel like people got the recognition. People just cared about the fight. They just wanted to watch a fight. They didn't care what you said beforehand unless you're arguing or shouting.

There's beef.

Unless you grab that mic and go crazy.

Yeah, you got to go crazy.

Chael Sonnen was the first guy to figure it out.

Oh, he's the best. He figured it out before anybody. He's the best.

Anderson Silva, you absolutely suck. He's the best fighter.

This is why he's on the mic now. Yes, but it was perfect.

It was perfect. But there was balance with that.

He's the king. For me, there's perfect balance. It wasn't too far. It was Exactly what you wanted. Exactly what you need to market a fight and to promote himself.

Yes, I agree with you.

But again, it's weird, though, because I think authenticity is important when you do that as well, though. And Conor McGregor is the next person for me that's delivered that.

Oh, 100%. He took it to a whole another level.

A whole another level. Every time this guy's on a mic, he'll say one line and I'm like, T-shirts. Easy.

T-shirts. How about when Jeremy Stevens is yelling at him and he goes, Who the fuck is that guy?

You can't beat this guy. Why did you even open your mouth?

It's so funny, man. It's so funny.

And you need to be able to do that. Before I even had my first fight, I spent hours. I was a big WW fan, and I felt like the Rock, Dwyane Johnson, out of all of them, was the best at marketing himself. He had the crowd in the palm his hands, every word that he said, and it was simple sayings. And I was like, Yeah, I studied this, studied this. I was like, okay. And even like his stance as he'd come up, jump on the ropes and put his hand up and just stand there. Look around. You know what I mean? He just demanded eyes. So again, I just came to, okay, what could I do? So I was like, okay. Venom, the snake. I was related to a snake. Okay, I was like, okay, yeah, let me do this. Okay, I got a stance that I can do. Okay, I need a saying. Okay, what can I say? Because again, I used to listen to people on After Fights, and I didn't hear anything they said. They're like, yeah, I'm good. I beat that guy. I'm like, Here, thank you for my sponsors. Who?

Who were your sponsors? I didn't hear anything. So I'm like, it has to be concise. I have to say specific words and just I write this stuff down. But again, I speak to my team. It's like, Bro, what are you guys doing? You need to do this stuff and understand that this is a part of your game. You've got five seconds after the fight on the mic. If that, what are you going to say? What message is going to land? What is going to make you memorable? And I do things on my walkings as well. I need people to remember. They're watching 16 fights on the night. Why do they remember me? Yes, my style is exciting. That's cool. There's this weird guy. He does some weird stuff with his arms and he's quite cool, but they're not going to remember my name. I need other things to keep them coming back. God, there's this guy in the way and he stood above this guy, put his snake hand up. And then, oh, that's the same guy that did the dance because now you're getting it from different places. That's the guy that threw the pokeable.

Oh, what's his name? The more times you keep hitting them with different things, the more times they're more likely to really buy into you. I think this is why I was able to create a big enough brand before even touching the UFC, just because I paid attention to that.

You were the one of the first guys to make a name for yourself in Bellator because Bellator, it was hard to break out. There were some wild fights in Bellator that never got recognized. At all. How about the Eddie Alvarez Michael Chandler fight? Beast. Fucking crazy fight. I feel like those guys left a lot of who they are there.

In there, yeah. Unfortunately, yeah.

We got them after. Chandler is still remarkably durable, but that's just a discipline thing and a hard work thing.

I think he's just accustomed to, like you said, he's trained in a certain way his whole life. He's always going to have that athleticism.

But he's 38 now. I wish he had not been in Bellator. Look, I'm all for competition. I think competition is important. I don't think there should be a monopoly in the MMA business. I think it's bad for the athletes. Definitely. I love the fact that PFL overpays people. Keep doing it. Give them a million dollars. Everybody get a million dollars. Everybody gets a car. I wish there was more organizations. I hope One FC succeeds.

It does help. It helped me as well, even in my negotiation.

Fucking everything. However, there's a caliber of athlete that I feel like should only be in the UFC, and you're one of those guys. Thank you. I appreciate. There's a caliber of athlete where I want to see how good they really are. Patchy Mitch is a beast. He's a bad motherfucker, but so is Mario Bautista. Mario Bautista had the perfect game plan to fuck up his party. But that dude, when he was in Bellator, was of that caliber. I was like, I want to see him over here, man.

I personally, and obviously because I've experienced it, for me, the first time I got nervous in an MMA fight was my first fight.

In the UFC?

No, my first fight ever. And then after that, I was like, Oh, yeah, this is the same as when I was fighting the kickboxing. I'm cool. I didn't get the nerves again. The first time again since then was the first... No, sorry, weird enough, the second fight in the UFC against Ian Gary. Now, the first fight, I don't know why. I don't know what it was, but I was quite relaxed. Then the second fight, I was like, Oh, it's something, a reality hit me of like, Oh, you're in the UFC. The people are going to demand a certain thing from you. And you got a reputation of before, of the knockouts, of the celebrations, of the walkings, of the this, of the that. And then I just let that put a weight on me.

Really? Yeah. That's crazy that it was the second fight.

I can't even explain as to why it was the second fight and not the first one. And then even the third fight, I still had that, man, I'm not performing the way I want. And I felt like I'm eager to impress. And I never felt like in Bellator. But at the UFC, I'm like, I'm trying my best. I literally have to sit. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, it's weird.

It's the same thing. It's the same thing. Cage, cameras, people. Same thing. Same thing.

But the magnitude of it, I don't know. I'm guessing.

It's what we all grew up with.

It's what everyone grows up with. It's like, this is where, like I said, there was always question marks around my name. I was jumping Jumped knees and this and that. Always question marks around my name still. But then now I'm here. It's like, oh, actually, these guys can respect me now. Actually respect me now because I'm here. Yes. And then I was just trying too hard, trying too hard, trying too hard. The last fight was the first time I was like, You're back. I'm back. And this is why I just keep getting me back in the cage because I swear to you this, I'm back to where I used to be and how I used to feel.

It's just an issue of getting guys that are willing to fight you that are of a certain caliber. Exactly. Because obviously, right now, you're pretty big. So for you to get down to 178 again would be a real problem. Are you committed to 185 or are you open to either one?

I want 170. I can see a clear pathway, Then after my last fight, I messaged Hunter and I was literally like, Look, let me fight. It was Morales. I was like, Look, another undefeated guy. Perfect fight. He's a beast. I'm ready. Let me take him. I said, What I could do after that is in December, I think I said, no, March next year. I was like, Yeah, give me that for November. March next year, usually come back to the UK. Let me fight the winner of Leon Edwards and Pratas. I was like, another great fight there. And then you've got July card. Obviously everyone's going to put their hand up to be on that. But I said, if you guys want me to be on that, again, I'll fight for whoever you want in that top range. I don't care who it is. Pick somebody, I'll fight them, and then I want a title shot. Or you give me the title there. But I'm like, I can see a clear path to what I want. And it's just everything seems slow, which I Like I said, I didn't expect coming to the UFC.

I thought that was going to be-I think there's just too many athletes.

There is a lot.

I think they have on contract more than 500.

Damn.

How many athletes does the UFC have under contract?

Throw that into-But then also, I think, obviously, I'm managed by a paradigm with Aldi, and he said he feels like the Paramount deal, they're having to integrate that now as well. And I'm like, I didn't think about that. But every time Bellator, because Bellator kept getting new partnerships, it did slow things down a little bit.

Oh, yeah, that would make sense. That doesn't start until January.

But obviously, they're sorting out contracts and things from now. And then they have to try and align the shows. And I'm guessing, obviously, I don't know, but I'm just saying it just feels even slower than before. And I'm like, That sucks. Yeah. And I'm I just want to be back out there. I don't care. And this is why I'm happy to take-674. Wow.

674 fighters under contract, and they don't have fights every week. They have fights almost every week, but not every week. Just think about that. So you have 52 weeks. You have all these fighters. Fighters want to fight multiple times a year.

I appreciate that, but I'm MVP, man. Let's go.

I am with you. I'm with you. I always say that I wish I was a matchmaker, but I don't because it's the hardest Yeah, I'm sure. I used to talk to Joe Silva back in the day when he did it. He fucking hated it, dealing with everybody and managers and people flake out, then fail drug tests. God damn it. And these guys, what they're doing right now is very difficult because what Mick Maynard and Sean Shelby are dealing with is the volume is so much greater. And there's so many more really good guys. In almost every division, guys are coming in from the contender series. That guy looks like a World Championship caliber fighter.

Talents.

Talents off the charts right now. And it's because they get to watch. These are the kids that are growing up watching Anderson Silva. They're growing up watching John Jones' first fight. They're growing up watching the early Chuck Liddell fights. It's totally different. When they're play fighting with their friends, they're in stances that look right.

They know what they're doing. And they know the names of every submission. This is so true.

They're calf-kicking each other in the fucking schoolyard. It's a totally different world. Very true. And those kids are going to grow up, and that's going to be integrated into their neuromuscular system. And they're going to learn. There's guys coming along that are like, elite black belt level jiu-jitsu, elite stand-up, elite wrestling, takedown defense, cardio off the charts, and they're 22. And you're like, This is nuts. Now it's just about whether you can compete, whether you could pull it off and keep your head together on fighting days.

Which is, again, I think is Something that people don't speak about enough.

Listen, Aaron Pico is as talented as they come. That dude is a fucking vicious boxer, incredible wrestling, gold chip prospect from the very... But Laron Murphy is another guy. I was saying before that this is the guy that's not getting the credit he deserves because you got all these loud killers at 145. But you got this one dude that does everything perfect.

Yeah, and he's beating everybody. He's beating everything. Etching away. Etching away.

He doesn't take damage, and he's clever, and he's slick, and he does things. Every technique is perfect. There's no fat on anything. There's no wild winged punches. Everything's tight. That spinning elbow was a work of art. He just knew Aaron Pico is a train. He's come, bang.

That was crazy.

But that's the difference between someone who can compete at the highest level.

Yeah, and it's custom to it. Right.

It's the knowing when to hit the gas and when not to. Pico is just all gas, no breaks.

Yeah, go ahead. Like you said, it's similar to Michael Charnler again. Yes. Just in that rage mode all the time.

All gas, no breaks.

You need to take your time.

But that's a wrestling thing, too. They always want to break people because in wrestling, you can do that. You can have that mentality where you're constantly eating the gas because you're not going to get knocked out with a flying knee.

Yeah, true. Changes.

Yeah, because you get that. That's how you compete. You get this mindset of, I am going to fucking dominate. I know what I did in training for this. My gas tank's off the charts. My aggression's off the charts. I'm a killer. I'm going to dominate. I'm moving forward. The problem was with a guy like Laron, it's like, you think he's backing up?

Bam, he's coming forward. Oh, the timing.

The timing. It was just like, oh.

But Pico even stepped right into the elbow.

It was ruthless.

It made it 10 times worse. Ruthless. Yeah, that's my thing. The car crash effect when you create those collision moments.

For a guy like Laron who's not a big marketing guy, not a big It doesn't say wild shit on the microphone. It just steady professional does his job. He needs to do that. He needs this spectacular thing where all of a sudden everybody goes, he needs to fight Alexander Volkinawski. And that looks like that's what's going to happen now because of that one performance.

Which is I'm so happy for him. Me too. He's a cool guy, man. I'm so happy for him. But this is why I tell people, if he had just a little bit of chat, a little bit of show your personality or something, just give me something.

You have that, though.

No, but you know what it is? I always say everyone... Demetrius Johnson, for me, is one of the greatest. Of all time. All time.

Of all time. Another underappreciated guy because he's too small. Because he's too small, yeah.

But I feel like underappreciated because you can't market him in the exact same way as you'd market a Conor McGregor or somebody else like that. But he's a gamer. I'm like, shed a light on. There's a massive, massive community of gaming. That industry is billion dollars deep. Market this guy because he goes back home and he's just like... Yeah, he's one of them. He's one of those guys. But again, we didn't see. I don't feel like we saw any of that until afterwards when he was doing his own thing. He's now obviously doing a lot of his YouTube I'm so happy that he's getting the recognition.

It was when he went to one that he started doing more of the game and stuff online.

No, he had been doing it, though. He had been doing it in the UFC as well? Yeah, but again, it's just more, I guess-They didn't capitalize. Yeah, that's what I mean. Certain people or you have to... What is your thing? Not everybody is just the fight, and they have things to wind down. You know what I mean? Yeah. Find that out. He's killing everybody anyway. So how else can we market? Instead of being like, Can't market him the same. He doesn't talk. He doesn't say anything. There must be something there. There has to be something else there we could look into.

Well, it's interesting because some guys, their personality is no personality. Like Pereira. His personality is Stoneface. Just Stoneface, destroyer, death machine. Here he comes, Amazon warrior. Like, literal, actual Amazon warrior. Like, not a faker. His fucking family comes from a tribe in the Amazon.

But then that's what he markets, though.

Yeah, I guess that's what they market.

But it was because of-No, but he markets that as well.

He markets it. He walks out. That walk out. Oh, yeah, that's true.

Bro, I do it myself. When he's walking out, I'm just waiting for him.

That's true.

And that's what I mean, though. You're selling your story with just something so simple.

That's actually a very good point that I didn't even think of. His walkout. His walkout gives you that. His walkout is maybe the best in the sport. Yeah.

And that's what I'm trying to say.

And that music, the jungle music behind him.

You just to walk.

Just this Amazon warrior.

It's simple. Everyone can relate to it. It's consistent. So I'm always going to, oh, that's the guy.

And you see kids in the audience throw the one, two, three. They do it.

Like I said, because I'm a big wrestling fan, I see it's It's those moments that everybody will remember and everybody will do.

When Stylebender came in to the undertaker. Beast.

But that's what I'm trying to say. It's those things that people just don't. And I'm talking the fighters themselves. Obviously, I feel the UFC can do their bit as well. But technically, you're already on the platform that's going to show you to everybody. So then it's your job to figure it out as well.

Another aspect of the game, like strength and conditioning, all these different things. Exactly.

Just think about it.

You're a professional. Figure out how to Look at yourself. You are the product. The problem is, though, it does lead to cringe moments. It's not everybody has your personality. And some guys try and it's like, yikes. Shit.

You're going to take a risk. You got to take the risk. If it goes well, it goes well. Yeah. It goes well. So as he said, Alex Pro, technically, we wouldn't care if he walked out of that and got knocked down. We wouldn't give a shit.

Yeah.

But he's a killer. Yeah.

That fight this weekend is very Very interesting. Yeah. So here's the downside to fighting all the time. Fighting all the time with your style is a very different thing because you take so little damage, which is another huge element. I would tell people that if you have a kid and your kid wants to learn martial arts and they want to eventually be an MMA fighter, I would say two things. Number one, wrestling. Take that kid and teach him how to wrestle, because if you could just develop takedown defense and understanding of grappling, at least you have a base from the time you're real little. Exactly. That should be your base because it's the most important aspect of the fight. If you can't grapple, a guy can take you down, and he can hold you down, and you can't do shit about it. Number two, learn how to point fight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Learn how to point fight.

Learn distance control.

There's a different thing that you guys are doing. People think of Billy Blanks as Taibo. You got to go back and watch Billy Blanks when he was a fucking karate lizard, dude. Yes, exactly. He was a lizard, and he was hitting people where you couldn't hit him. All So the old-school guys were all light on the feet, blated style, and they had this leap in ability that if you're used to a guy standing in front of it, it's a giant problem, and you don't have the timing to solve it. You could go two, three rounds deep before you start actually landing it.

Exactly.

You can't do anything to them. It's a giant problem. I would say you want to be the person giving the other person that problem.

Exactly.

Then you can learn all the other stuff, too. Learn your boxing fundamentals and your tie and knees and elbows. But But if they're nowhere near you and you can hit them, you can close that gap quick. You have a blitz.

So I mean, understanding that distance control. Yes.

And also the feints, the stutter steps.

Those things change the game. Yes.

There's so much movement in that style of fighting that just gets lost when people are plotting and just teeping each other in the stomach and kicking their legs. But it's funny.

People always used to go on about me and Wonderboy Thompson fighting. And I'd always say, it won't be as exciting as you think For us, me and him, there'll be moments where we're bouncing, faking, and we laugh at each other because we saw what would have happened if one of us went. But the crowd's like, the fuck is going? Fight. The fuck are you guys doing? Smiling at each other. They don't get their fight that's going on in the moment. And I say it, it's not as exciting. Two pluses don't always give you that plus. Not always.

But you still want to see it.

Of course. People always want to just...

It's also like, fighting doesn't have to always be ultimate excitement. That's why I say no stand-ups ever. When a guy takes the guy down, that person on the bottom does not want to be on the bottom. They want to be up. If they can't get up, tough shit. It's only five rounds. Every fight starts, ends it up, which is a giant, giant advantage for a striker. Because otherwise, they wouldn't even be able to get themselves up. So none of that. It's got to be pure. It's got to be real. You can't have ways that a guy won only because the rules set it up for him to get to a better position. I agree.

The only thing that I find slightly frustrating in that element is I don't mind the wrestling. I think the wrestling is a beautiful art and is, like you said, one of the most important arts to dictate where you want the fight to go. But if you're taking me down, try to kill me.

I agree.

Try to finish the fight. Don't just take me down and just...

I agree.

I've had people like, grabbing my legs and looking at the clock.

Here's the thing. If they're not good enough to kill you, right? What if they're good enough to take you down and hold you down, but then they just have to be real defensive afterwards and they'll throw a little pitty pat? I know.

That's the only element that I just-But here's the thing.

They're not good enough to do more. Do you know what I'm saying?

But you must be, though.

Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe only good enough. You're so good, and they're just good enough to hold you down. But if they've reined up and started reined, and then you fucking framed off, you got to half guard, you got back up to your feet. All of a sudden, we're dealing with this shit again. Fuck that. But if you just stay on top and don't take any chances, now you can't do shit. Yeah, I agree. It's boring as fuck.

For me, it's not even a boring element of it. I still enjoyed that aspect. If I was watching, I only enjoyed that aspect because I know what I'm looking at now. I'm like, oh, he's got... Okay, he's got his wrist egg. Okay, I can see what he's trying to work to. Okay, no, you didn't get it. I'm still in the fight, whereas some people, I guess, if you don't get into grappling, you're not going to know what's happening other than they're just lying there. So I get it for them. But for me still, it's just that the aim of this game is for me to beat you. And I mean, knock you out, put you to sleep. I'm trying to show you that I am the stronger man as a warrior, and that's not by holding you. That's not by holding you down. Holding you down to get you to a position to land this elbow and hold you down to get this position to land this part. Yeah, but just to...

I completely agree. However, even though I'm a fan of yours, if a wrestler who had that boring style took you down and held you down for three rounds and wanted a decision, I'm like, damn, he did it. He did it because he can't do it any other way. If he can't stand up with you, he's going to get fucked up, and he can take you down anytime. Why would he ever let you up? If losing position is dangerous, so if you're very explosive and you're very good at grappling, you're very good on the bottom, you've gotten submissions off the bottom. If a guy rains up and starts throwing shots, but he feels like his base is gone, and he just wants to clench and hold on and maintain position, and he maintains position with this shit. You're on top and you're doing this shit, just little movements. He's still getting away with that. He's still doing that.

Yeah, I agree. Because that might be his only right for you.

But the thing is, he's not good enough. Where then you have guys like Khabib. Khabib gets you down. You're getting fucked up. You're getting fucked up constantly.

Everybody loves that. Everybody loved it. He's talking to you. He's creating a space by still pinning you.

He's crushing your legs in between his legs and he's fucking whaling on you.

That I can appreciate all day, every day.

I can, too. But some guys aren't good enough. They're still fighting. They're in there. They're not good enough. There's guys at a world-class level that are not going to be world champions, but they might be able to beat a guy who could be a world champion if they can do that thing.

It sucks. I know. But it's real. It's hard to class you as a world championship fighter then.

I think you're a world champion of the wrestling. Okay, well, let's talk about Hamzat then. Hamzaat Drink a Stupe of Sea is a perfect example of that. You got an elite grappler who dominated the fight with very little damage.

When I dominated it to the point where you're in the worst position you could be in in MMA. You're in a crucifix. Over and over again. Every round.

Over and over again.

You can't do shit about it. You let him just...

You can't do shit about it.

So do you think that he's worried about him exploding? Because in my head, I'm like, the fight ends if I elbow the shit out of you right now.

I think he's worried about the chaos and Drick is getting back to his feet. They wanted to just win. This is the whole thing because he came back to his corner, apparently. And this was told to me secondhand, but I'm pretty sure it's true by a reliable source that he was saying, Can I box now? I was like, No, you're not fucking box. His team was like, Take him down. Look, if you got that clear of a dominance, That I still agree with, though, as a coach is saying, no, take him down.

But I'm saying once you are in that position-Smash.

Smash.

Your whole thing is smash. Smash the shit out. This is what the hell?

I think they just wanted that win no matter what. Because it's such a big deal. Hamza finally got a shot at the title. What is the clearest, most intelligent... If you're betting a billion dollars on this fight, what's the best way to victory? Fucking just take him down. You can take him down anytime you want to. Hold him down, punch him a few times. Make sure you're in dominant position so you're not going to get stood back up. If the referee starts talking to you and telling you to start a little bit of this, do a little bit of that, fake a submission, don't throw all your gas into it. Do whatever the fuck you got to do, but get that goddamn title. Fair. Right? And then there's going to be some guys that he can't do that, too. And that's where things get interesting. Yeah.

But who would you say that is, though? Because his wrestling style is just- Crazy. Yes. It's crazy. Yes, it's crazy.

So Brandon Shab had been to his training camp, and he called me up. He goes, Bro, we got to talk. He goes, I just got back watching Hamza train. He goes, I've never seen anything like that in my fucking life. He's like, Dude, when I'm telling you he's mopping the floor with division one, all-Americans, world-class grapplers, jiu-jitsu black belts. He goes, He's mopping the floor with people. He goes, It's nuts. Because they asked me if I wanted a spa with him. Shab goes, Fuck you. He's like, Fuck you. I'm not going in there. He goes, he was mauling people on the ground. He goes, I've never seen anything like it. He goes, It was crazy. He goes, He's so high level. Yeah.

I had the privilege of going to the gym in Dubai and training alongside him and I saw it for myself. Yeah, I was like...

It's a shocking level of grappling. Yeah. And when you can achieve that shocking level of grappling on world-class MMA fighters, why wouldn't you do it? This is my thing, my take on it. If you just want to win and make as much money as possible and keep doing that, you should finish guys whenever you can. But if you don't think you can in the path to victory is grappling, this is still a sport. If it wasn't a sport, there'd still be headbutts.

There'd still be all the- There'd still be stamps and stuff.

Yeah, stamps, soccer kicks, all the wild shit that used to be. You'd still be able to wear shoes. Who gives a fuck? But it's a sport. If it's a sport, we've got some rules. I just don't think there's anything wrong with winning by the rules. It's not my favorite style. My favorite style is either a knockout artist or a submission artist. I like a guy who just finishes everything. Olivero when he was-Yeah, when he's in his In his prime, just kill it. Catching triangles and Darces. Oh, my God. He was a monster. He was so good. When you watch a guy who's an elite, world-class submission artist and the fight goes to the ground, it's just a totally different thing. You You're in real... Fabrício Verdu when he was in his prime, when he caught Fedor with that triangle. Bro, that was-Catching Fedor with a triangle is crazy. If you know how explosive that guy is and how fast he is and strong. What a great grappler he is. But Fabrício Fabrício Verduim is another guy who doesn't get his due. When you think about all time goats, you think about Noguera, you think about Fedor, and you think about Minetaro, and Fabrício Verduim tapped them all.

He tapped all the greats. All of them.

Tapped them. Tapped them.

All the greats. Didn't just win by a decision.

Tapped Fedor when Fedor was Fedor. People were like, Whoa, that's crazy. Fedor's a beast.

Bro, he was a monster. Stoic warrior from Russia. No expression.

He was the earliest, the first of his time.

Way ahead of his time.

First of his time.

Way ahead of his time. Ability to catch submissions off his back with lightning speed. He had a lightning fast arm bar.

Yeah.

And power on the feet.

Yeah.

But he walked down Crocop. Yeah, it's crazy.

Crazy.

It was stand up.

Yeah, Crocop's head kicks were insane. Every kick.

Every kick. But Fedor was blocking them so intelligently, too. He was using that high block with his knee way up like that to catch that left kick. They caught it shin to shin many times. That was a crazy fight. But Fedor in his prime was so good, man, because he was the first guy other than Minetaro. Minetaro, but he was more dangerous on the feet than Minetaro. But Minetaro on the ground was one of the first guys super dangerous off his back. Off his back, yeah. Yeah, just super lethal guard. When he beat Bob Stapp, that was the nuttiest fight in the history of MMA. Bob Stapp was 350 pounds with abs.

I was going to say he's like your Inganu nowadays.

Babe, But way bigger. Yeah. Way bigger, but not as skilled.

Yeah. No, he's got Francis's improvement because in his earlier stages, I was just like, Yeah, he's got power, but he's technically like- Francis basically beat Tyson Furie in a boxing match. Crazy, right?

Basically beat him because I scored it for him.

I scored it for him, 100%. They could not let that happen.

He dropped Tyson Furie with a left hook and then dance in front of him. That's skill. He wasn't ready for Anthony Joshua because Anthony Joshua was a different thing. He's got more one-shot knockout power. He took it more seriously, too.

He likes to switch in. But again, this is where the boxing is. If you don't have that intellect in the box, and that footwork and foot positioning is put your foot on one side, you're going to get killed. You're putting your foot on the other side, you're safe. You can manage the power and see the punches coming. But he kept switching stances by just leaving himself in just the wrong positions.

Yeah, he wasn't ready.

He wasn't ready. There was a lot of hype off the Fury fight.

Also, Joshua got to watch him box in the Fury fight, see some patterns. Fury, I think, probably took him lightly. Yes, I think so. He's one of the greatest of all time. This You guys never had a boxing match? At the beginning of the fight, it's like, time to go to school. Like, oh, really?

And then he got stunned. He just got stunned and that was it. He's not working.

You talk to any fighter, they will tell you the worst times of their life is when they thought that a guy was nothing. And then in the middle of fight, they realized, oh, my God, I'm losing. They took a guy lightly and they didn't get up for the fight. Then they went in there and that dude was fired up and ready to go.

You can't take anybody lightly, though. No.

Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, another perfect example.

Yeah, 100 %, no. No one thought. This guy was partying every day. Yeah, exactly.

He did not take it seriously at all.

He did not take it seriously at all. You got the big respect for Buster Douglas on that one, though. Oh, my God.

It was one of the greatest performances of any heavyweight title fight ever.

To want to walk in and do that as well.

The fact that that guy could do that the whole time but only did it against Mike Tyson is nuts because he was one of those guys, and we all know them, that is super talented and just never realizes their full potential. You know guys in the gym, you'd see him sparring.

I talk about this all the time. I've had so many people, obviously, I've got to see over the years that are talented. And again, it's the same thing, but can you do it when it counts? Can you do it when the lights are on? Can you do it when there's pressure and it means something to you, your friends, your family, money? Can Can you still do it? That's when it counts. But I've seen guys that are... There's a guy, actually, and I always talk about him just because he was super unique. And weird enough, he got to the UFC on a short stint, Galorba Fondo. I don't know if you ever remember him. He only had two fights, but he fought Charlie Ward, and I call it Hadukin. He just grabbed him and threw his head into the floor. Oh, Jesus. And it was a KO. He actually never got the bonus for that. I don't how he didn't because I've never seen anybody just throw someone's head down. You need to watch it at some point. Boom. There you go. Oh, God. If you keep it going and you see how he finishes, look, he's like,Wow.

That dude landed hard. That dude landed hard.

And if you see the finish, this is how athletic this guy was. Just watch. Light work. Just a little-Perfect landing. Yeah, perfect landing. Now, I had to deal with this Every day. And that was nothing. He's super explosive. But again, he's a striker, very weird striker. His kicks are like his hands. He can for ages. I was sparring him one time and me and him, I'm the guy with him. When he steps in, my eyes do this. And I'm like, okay, I have to make sure because a kick will come from anywhere. And we're sparring, going back and forth. And I'm in my element and everything slows down for me. And I see his head drop down and alarm bells are going off. And I'm like, he doesn't shoot. He doesn't go for takedowns. But I'm feeling alarm bells going on. I'm like, something's going wrong. I don't know why this felt this slow. Something is wrong. And I've never done this block in my life. And I went like this, X block. I've never done this in my life. Never been taught this. My body said, throw your hands.

He did that and did a-Cutwheel kick.

Front flip.

Oh, jeez.

Landed on his foot and ax kicked me. If I didn't do that, I'd be sitting here in two right now talking to you about the story that I once used to do MMA and this guy split me in half.

And he's front flip ax kick.

He's in a front flip ax kick. On his Instagram, I don't know if you will find it, but on his Instagram, there's clips of him doing it on a bag, and he literally flips, lands on his foot, hits the bag, and he's just standing. But he did it. I've blocked it. Now, even that alone, because I've now blocked it, you should fall off balance. He took his foot off and carried on sparring. Everyone in the gym was like, what the fuck was that? What the hell was that?

I never even thought anyone could do that.

He's another person that in the cage, he never showed this stuff. I've seen him, someone on a single leg, and he's run up the cage and slipped off the single leg and kicked off the cage and landed behind the person. When I talk about this, it sounds like I'm exaggerating. He used to do stuff That is only in games. And this is why everyone used to love.

Just watching him do that flip, I believe every word you're saying. Because that was crazy. The landing was crazy.

Yeah, like it was a feather.

No, he landed soft on one knee? Yeah.

He was insane, but just never showed it. Wow. Is he retired? Yeah. He teaches and stuff now, but he just... And it's a shame, man. He was a fun character. Like I said, an amazing person to train with because he made me better. And he got the few people in the gym that could actually kick me in the head and catch me because usually I'm good at seeing. I got good eyes. And he's just, it was just something else.

Crazy that you knew it. You had I don't know what happened.

But as Alvin said, if you don't do this, you're going to die today. Wow.

That's crazy that you recognize that of all movements. Yeah.

But again, because he never shoots. He's a striker. He was sprawling and start doing his jiu-jitsu from there. Never really shoots. And he just went like this. And I'm like, What's going on here? I don't feel like sprawling. Something's wrong, but I don't feel like sprawling. Oh, here you go.

Oh, my God.

That's crazy. Yeah, he does one and he lands it.

That's crazy. Boom. That is so crazy.

Imagine doing that during a sparring. It doesn't make sense. I'm talking he's hit in the bag. Boom, look.

That's crazy.

I tell people, people feel like, you're talking rubbish. You can hear that. If that hit me.

That is so wild.

And I wish he was able to show this stuff.

What an explosion you have to have to pull that off. The amount of force you generate. Yeah.

And who would see that coming? I still don't, to this day, know how I saw it coming, but if he did that, and again, he goes into... He went into these fights and it would be relatively basic. He wouldn't show all of this stuff.

So he would tighten up in fights?

Yeah, he'd just tighten up a little bit. He just wouldn't express himself in the same way.

Did anybody at that time work with a mental coach?

No. From our gym, the only person I know did it from our gym was actually Alex Reid. But he is a weird character anyway. Funny guy, lovely guy. But he used to have therapists come and do this stuff. At the time, I feel like I didn't care for it because he just made it seem lame. It's just because it was from him. But I understand more so over my time, the importance of the mental aspect of things as well.

Maybe if someone could explain to him or if you could have a conversation about what goes wrong when he competes. What are the thought process when he competes and what could be done different to change that thought? To combat them, when those thoughts come up, to have a tool, have a mental toolbox. Where you go, No, we're not going to entertain this guy Positivity. We're going to stay positive. We're going to stay Zen. The most important thing, don't ever give in the anxiety. Don't let it get to you. Don't let it follow you. You're positive, you're breathing, you're moving. You're a killer. Keep moving and just have someone with him, maybe, initially to coach him through those movements.

I wish there was some... But again, also maybe the gym that he's in with us at London shoot, that's not a thing. We beast that. The thing is, he still look amazing up into the fight. He'd get to the fight and you'd be like, Bro, I can't wait for people to see this. And he'd get there and you're like, What are you doing, man? And it was frustrating because he was still super talented. He still, he won one. I think he lost the next one and then that was it. But even his previous fights before that, he's got some exceptional fights.

But just never-Not what he's capable of doing.

I've never seen what I've seen in the gym on stage. Wow. Never seen. And he still got signed to the UFC. Just because he was still talented. And obviously somebody saw his talent and was like, Yeah, I want that. And nobody's ever seen what I've seen this guy do. And all of our teammates are like, If you've seen that, everybody would be throwing money at this guy. Just make sure he's on the next card. It's crazy.

It's really crazy. Because it seems to be like that in almost every sport, but in fighting in particular, because it's the biggest mental hurdle. There's no team to fall back There's no, I guess we lost tonight, boys. No, you got fucked up in front of the whole world. And that's the sport that you're in. You're in the sport with the highest highs and the lowest lows. So that pressure is just It's unexplainable to the average person.

Yeah, you can't explain it, really. This is why I try my best to focus on the element of fun, because I feel like when I'm dancing, smiling, laughing, joking, everything slows down and everything's enjoyable. There's no stress. And anytime I feel slightly stressed, you might see me dance, which is interesting because people just think I'm just doing it for the other person to mock the other person. And sometimes it's just, just stay chill, man. You're here. You're here. You don't need to do anything more than this. If I feel a little bit like, oh, that was a bit... And my mind starts going, no, no, no, no, again and then go back to enjoying yourself. But I know some people need to be in this angry state and just psych themselves into it. And I don't even need to be angry at my opponent. And I think that comes from the fact that I used to have to fight my siblings. It's not based on anger. I love them. But my dad, he used to say, That's not your sibling on the map, but straight afterwards, make sure you pick that person up, make sure they're good.

And again, my brother would beat me up, my other brother beat me up. My sister would beat me up. Everybody. But I still had love for them. So I never needed anger to thing. And the fact that my family did this thing, and even my nephews and stuff now, it's generational. It's just something that keeps us all together and we're so close. It's not based on being angry, just based on learning something, enjoying something, and doing it with people that you love. So that's the way I can make it fun. Everyone loves this whole tense, and I don't.

I think what a lot of people don't understand, too, is the hardest part of it is the day of the fight. It's not the fight. Once a fight starts happening, then you're there.

You're in it.

It's not scary unless you're getting fucked up. When you're getting fucked up and you know the end is near, you want to see ultimate bravery? Khalil Roundtree in the last round with Pereira, when Pereira is putting it on him, that's ultimate bravery. Because he knows he's getting fucked up. He knows he doesn't have much time. There's nowhere out. His skill set is all in stand up. I mean, he can take guys to the ground, but at this point, that's not going to happen.

It's not happening.

His face is broken up. Busted up. And Pereira is doing that Cobra thing where he gets Cobra-style, he teams back, slams in. It was terrifying. But that's that bravery in front of the whole world. A lot of people, they're not sure if they have that. Yeah, fair. And so there's just the pressure of that in front of the whole world like that.

So maybe they're in there just like, just do enough.

Exactly. They're scared.

Which shrinks you.

And sometimes super duper talented people are the most scared because it came too easy for them. There's a thing about super duper talented people that for some reason, that gift comes with a curse, and that curse is that it came to you too easily, so you never really developed.

Understand the grind.

Yeah, the real will and drive to overcome, just make these little tiny wins every day to pile onto a skillset. You're just a lightning bolt. You're a lightning bolt, and then when it's time to actually fight, you don't know if you've been tested. You don't know who you are yet.

I think I get that a lot, though, as in people are always like, he's just naturally talented. And only when I tell people that, I used to get my ass handed to me.

But this is the thing that I've always said. Guys who grow up with brothers, especially older brothers who can kick their ass, they're ready to fight at all times because they're fighting in their fucking house. They're ready to fight with guys who can beat them up their whole life. Just that alone sets you up for competition in a different way than someone like, I grew up with my sister. We didn't fight. It's like, no one beat me up at home. It's totally different because you're accustomed to being around hostile males who are dominating you.

Was it older or younger, though?

Younger sister.

Okay. Because my older sister would still beat me out.

My sister never got into martial arts. I was the only one in the family got into it. But if I did, if I grew up with a bunch of brothers, I'm sure we'd be beating the fuck out of each other.

Yeah, weird enough, we had to do it. That's one thing. Again, he'd always say, This is not for out here. This is for in there. If you got an issue, verbalize it. And if you still have an issue, we can sort it out in there. But yeah, I'd be annoyed at my brother. We'd have fights every now and again, but nothing crazy.

But it's just the accustomed, being accustomed to just constant back and forth. How about, Fuck you? It's like it's in your house. It's in your house.

It's where you sleep. I was the wind up. Oh, yeah? But I couldn't fight, so I had to do it some other way.

So you had to talk some shit. Yeah, I had to talk some shit. You also had to be a little tougher because you're the smaller one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's part of the thing. What's crazy about John Jones is his brother-He's got two older brothers, no? Well, I think one of them is younger. Isn't Chandler younger? But they're all beast. Yeah, of course. Both NFL, no? Yeah. So you're growing up in a house of beast. You better be ready for some hostility. You got to be ready for some aggression. There's a giant benefit in that as far as mindset, because the mindset, you're accustomed to hostility. I mean, all his brothers are super freaks, just giant athletes. And so he's in this house with highly competitive males his whole life. So you're totally accustomed to competition. Whereas with some people, competition is like super Super overwhelming. And it's a test you don't want to take. You almost don't want to find out if you're good enough.

I think even the school system has slowly, over the years, they've slowly taken out certain things that challenges people in a way that gives them that gift of being competitive, especially in the UK. I'm not sure about in the States, but in the UK, they changed the rules. This was just after I would have left, to not allow to pick teams because Because then people will feel bad if they got picked last. I'm like, If you're shit, I'm not picking you. Get better. This is real life.

That's how it works in real life. That bad feeling of getting picked last. Lionel Richie was talking about that yesterday.

Oh, serious?

Yes. Lionel Richie, before he was in a band, it was always like, he was the last one to get picked for this. He was the last one. He was talking about that openly. But look, that's what created Lionel Richie.

A hundred %. Again, I think we, again, over there, I'm not sure here, but we model, like the kids. Then they think you surround them in cotton wall. Then the real life hits them and they're just like, what?

It's the opposite of Yoel Romero.

Yeah, exactly.

You become a machin. It's the opposite. It's the opposite of that.

I think I was talking to it My brother as well earlier about how they say, I forget the saying, it's like, tough men create good times, good times, and the whole cycle of that. It's very true, though. We're creating too much good time for people, and everybody's completely complaining about everything.

Exactly. When things are really good, the problem is whatever is bad, even mild, becomes a giant thing. Then you're dealing with microaggressions.

People get crazy.

They look for all kinds of grievances everywhere they go. When you are involved in hard competition, you're not interested in any of that stuff. At all. Because it's just a giant distraction. The real thing is so difficult. And that's why I think even though it's uncomfortable for kids, I think wrestling in high school, any competitive sports in high school, martial arts, especially.

A hundred %. I've been an advocate for ages.

So valuable for you.

For ages, I've been saying this.

It's okay to lose.

It's okay to lose.

It's actually good for you.

Very good for you. And you need to learn this stuff. Like I said, as soon as they're out of your care, they have to experience that anyway. You can't... And I used to do this even when I was teaching. We're teaching a jab or something. Teaching a jab and we're doing a slip in drills. And you're jabbing like this. I was like, you're not helping anybody by jabbing away from their face because now this guy thinks he's amazing at slip in punches. And then we make him smart and he's like, Doosh, doosh, doosh. Move your fucking head. I'm doing what I usually do. So I'm like, It's better that you hit him in the gym so then when they go out into the real world or they go into a competition and whatever, they're actually good at these drills that I'm giving you. You're not helping by trying to be helpful. You don't have to hit hard, but be accurate, get them used to it, and then slowly speed up. I say this all the time, but it's exactly the same thing. People need to go through those actual trials and tribulations in certain areas so that then they can be ready for it later on.

100 %.

And this idea of protecting them and everybody gets a participation trophy. That's so bad for it. That feeling of bad from losing is beneficial. It's just like the feeling of being tired after you work out. That's how you get in shape. It's all good for you. Exactly. It's all good for you. You're getting into an emotional shape.

But this is why I feel a lot of people are trying to take shortcuts for everything. Nobody really wants to do the hard work. Yeah, nobody wants to do the hard work. And I get it if it's really excessive, you let it get to a certain point and it's like, okay, you need to at least some help to get to a certain point to then work out. But you need to work.

You need to work. And it's good for your brain. We have, for whatever reason, a whole series of human reward systems that are built into our brains from the times that we were all living in tribes, thousands and thousands of years ago. And in This brain, it requires tasks. It's enforced in your brain that if you go out and you make arrowheads and you hunt the deer, you have food, your family's a grouse, so you have tasks. So they're whittling the stick and you're into it. And you better be fucking into it. Because if you're not into it, you're not going to eat. So if you have a life where there's none of those things and you're sitting there in front of Netflix, on a channel, of course you're depressed. Of course you're depressed. Your body is not getting any of the stuff that it needs. I think it's only. Your mind isn't getting any of the tasks that it needs.

Someone was telling me, it's the reptilian mind that looks for dangers, that seeks dangers, because we're not in a society that has those dangers. We look at our dangers are now, this person looked at me funny, or this person...

Or even worse, your phone.

Yeah, it's even easier now.

People are commenting on you. The haters are getting me today.

To be fair, it's funny. The first time, this was still earlier. My comments were from YouTube initially. I had an Instagram, but I didn't really use it like that. So after my first fight, I was super-pumped. Because like I said to you, I was so nervous after my first fight. And I always say, Look, if you watch all of my walkouts of being like, Yeah, vibes. Yeah, I'm just happy to be here. My first fight, I was like this. I was dying inside, Joe. In my head, literally, I was like, Why did I decide to do this? I was like, Why am I here? I was stressed. The whole walk was the longest walk, and you'd never seen me so tense. And then the second I got in there and the bell rang, I was like, Oh, yeah, same thing. Okay. Then I started to feel myself and the vibe, my energy started, the MVP that we obviously come to know now came out. For me, that was just like, that was great. But in terms I just lost Raul. Go ahead.

You lost what you're talking about?

Yeah.

No worries. It happens all the time. But that was interesting that then the second fight was the one that it really overwhelmed you.

That was in the second That fight in the UFC. It overwhelmed me.

So the first fight you ever had was when you walked out.

That's when I walked out.

The first fight you ever had.

So that was me against... No, not UFC. Me versus Dishman. And I just walked out. And seriously, I just had nothing But fear inside me.

And what athlete was he? What did he do?

I'm not sure. He was a kickboxer or something. Didn't see my first fight. I had, I think, three pullouts before I got to that fight. Probably three weeks before, three different people. At that level, it happens all the time. And I had fights online. So my coach was like, Are you able to take these down? They're randomly filmed from so many random people. So I wouldn't even know where to begin to find out to try and get them taken down. If anybody did research, they would see that I had 720 kick. So it made sense while people was pulling out.

For people that don't understand what that means, that's not a 363 kick.

This is one of them. This wasn't even the first time I did it. Where is it? Yes. Is it coming up? It'll be after this. Okay, yeah. Okay, it's going to be... Yeah, I said just before this.

That's crazy. That's such a crazy kick. That dude is sitting there going, How the fuck did he hit me with that? He put his hands on his knees and everything. How the fuck did he pull that off?

So I understand why people would look at that and be like, No, not yet. But this guy stepped in and I felt so bad, negative, going forward, walking in. But then once I was in there. But if you see the walkout,. But even here, I'm super tense. It was only until I started bouncing that it was even a thing.

What was the thing that was bothering you the most about doing this?

Just my decision. Why did I do this? I don't know, specifically.

But once you got lose.

Yeah, once I got in there, I was like, cool.

He had an obvious game.

Yeah, he was trying to take me down. He wasn't strong. So I was like, yeah, I'm just push off. I was feeling good. And I think after he felt my strength, he was like, Okay, It stood back.

That's such a problem. It's such a problem. I'm watching you move here, and I'm thinking, what do you do? Oh, you can't do anything. You can't do anything because he's so far away from you. And Like that, when you try to close a distance on him, or rather, he tries to close a distance on you, and he just can't. He just can't get close. Look at that. That's just nuts. That's a terrible puzzle to try to solve in real life. Yeah. Wow, look at that dive. That's pretty good, though. You got a hold of your ankle. I mean, that shows you how much you wanted that takedown. Yeah.

Until this happens.

Oh, boy. The best part is just this standing there. That's amazing. Look at this. This is amazing. That's amazing. That's the best not walk off KO ever. That's a standoff KO. You You realized. That's crazy. You didn't even look at him. That's amazing.

You just staring at the crowd. It's funny when people ask me, Why did you stand there? What if he came back? I was like, I landed the kick and I stood still and I was thinking he might come back, so I'm going to spin the other way and land another kick. That It was the game. And then when the referee stepped in, I was like, Perfect. This looks good. It did look good.

It looks slick as fuck.

But that's the thing. Okay, that's where I remember I was going. I went crazy viral for that. Everyone was like, Who's this guy? And I was like, because of the relief that I had, because of how tense I was, I was like, Oh, my God. That was for me, ticking the box. I can actually do this. I can actually make a career of this because I wasn't sure. And got home. What did jump online. I'm seeing a video of crazy thousands of comments and this and that. Okay, maybe the next comment. Maybe the next one? Nope. Yeah, people don't like me.

They didn't like you for that video?

I felt like I had murdered someone's child.

For that video? Yeah. Okay. It just shows you why you shouldn't read comments. No, 100 %. Because you're only getting the opinions of the dumbest motherfuckers alive. If you just saw that. So let me tell you my thought when I saw that, because when that clip went viral, I went, finally. This is proof of what I've been saying for a long time. They have a different thing. The really elite point fighters have a totally different thing, and you can't even get close to hitting that. And we're seeing that now. That was the beginning of it. Because even though Raymond had really good success in glory-Yeah, he was amazing. He did a great success in glory, but it was different because you're in a small ring, it's roped off, and he wasn't accustomed to leg kicks yet. He had that one spectacular jumping side kick, spin back kick to the face.

He nearly hit me with one of those. He was very famous for his double back kicks. Oh, my God. And then every time again, he would hook it. And he's not people out in the points game for it. Everyone's seen it. I remember, I think it's the first time I fought him, and I was young, but I had a reputation. He's the keyword was the guy over in America that had a reputation. And we know we've collided. I was like, I don't care who this guy is, man. I was feeling myself. I was killing everybody for ages. I remember faking, moving around, moving around, faking, faking. Got him in the corner. I was like, oh, perfect. Boom, blitz. Same thing. I was like, something's off. Boom, did this. But normally the first kick is light. Both stamps. I was like, Shit. Not only was that fast, but that was powerful as well. And that just got into my head. It threw me right off. I didn't want to commit to any of my strikes. And just from the first moment, he let that go. I was just like, yeah.

He was very dangerous. Dangerous. Very dangerous.

Dangerous.

And he was another guy that proved that point, that this is a completely different skillset. And if you don't know How to deal with that, you're in real... They took the elite guys. They took the Nicki Holskins and the Joseph Valtuini, those guys, to figure- Nicki was beast. Yeah, just chopped the legs. Nicki was so technical. He was tight, hands up high, chopped the legs, chopped the legs.

He was a beast.

Chopping the legs, man, is a totally different ball game. As soon as the legs start getting chopped, you're like, oh.

You can't bounce anymore. But that's the thing. It's weird because I started to utilize that as a way to win fights. We're not obviously taking the leg kicks, but only giving you that option. So everyone's like, yeah, but that's an awkward style. I was like, Yeah, but when I stand in front of you like that, you don't think to do a punch because I feel way too far away. So you're not doing a punch. The only thing you have is what's in front of you is a kick. So it's like I got used to timing kicks as you're kicking, collision, going in, or just pulling just off and then putting my foot in slightly deeper. And then just pulling off and then putting my foot in slightly deeper. Now I know I can pull this trigger when I'm ready. And you're getting more and more demoralized because you're not landing. You're throwing a kick, you're swinging around.

And there's only one thing available.

And there's only one thing available. So I have to keep pressing that same button.

And the idea of you shooting on It feels far. Yeah, too far. It feels very far. That's the Hamza thing. It's like Hamza shoots from the middle of the fucking octagon. That guy's got a crazy shot. That shot he hit Whittaker with, and the one he went with... Who is it? Oh, the Leech. When he picked up the leech, he picked him up, carried him over to Dane-a-White. It's like, I kill everybody. Like, whoa, this is nuts. He was another guy. They're like, How the fuck are you making 178?

Yeah, he's a big boy.

When I first met him, I was like, What are you talking about? You're not 170? Yeah, big boy. I fucking hate the weight cutting. I hate it. I hate it with a passion. I hate it more than anything in the sport. I think it should be eliminated, but it's too late. I think people should get down to a healthy weight and fight at the healthiest weight, whatever the hell that is.

Do you think there would be a way to combat that? Because obviously, in boxing, you have to weigh in multiple times now.

Well, some fighters make you do that. Like Javante Davis, he made Ryan Garcia do that. He wanted to make sure that Ryan Garcia didn't rehydrate. Mayweather did that to Canelo, too. It's just a G move.

Yeah, that's small. That's when you're the A-side.

You're the smaller, you're the A-side. I'll fight you, but you got to wait 143 when you get in that fucking ring, bitch. Guys will take that fight for that big paycheck, but it's not a good move. But I just think that it's legalized cheating. I just think that it's cheating. Look, if you're a 155-pound champion, but you weigh 190 pounds, that's crazy.

I agree. And if I didn't have to wake up, because if you don't join in, you're fighting monsters.

That's true. But they would have to fight Monsters, too. Everybody would have to fight a person that weighs what they actually weigh.

No, I agree with that. But I'm just saying with the The fact that people are weight cutting, when I got to this arena, I'd prefer to just report what I weighed at.

Yes.

But because everyone's weight cutting, I was like, You have to.

You have to. You have to do it. Look, when you are fighting at 170, For people that understand, I'm short. That's 30 pounds less than me. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's just a giant advantage that you can't give up. And when you're doing that across every single weight class and every single World Championship, the last guy that I know that didn't cut weight was Frankie Edgar when he was a 155-pound champ. When Franky Edgar was a 155-pound champ, he weighed 155, and he moved like a ghost. He was all over the place. He was fast as fuck. He had great endurance. His recovery was incredible because he could take a great shot because he wasn't dehydrated like everybody else was.

That's the thing. I actually feel great at middleweight.

Yeah. You definitely have the size for it.

Yeah, I'm naturally that way. But it's weird, though, because people's body types, because they are cutting, they're still slightly stuck. Not necessarily frame-wise as big as me, but they're just slightly stockier. And obviously, as you say, the guys that want to come in and just go...

They just want to clinch and get you down. It's a giant advantage.

It's an advantage if they're going to be that much heavier than me as well. Moving people. Even in my last fight, when I got taken down in that last round, trying to get a scan in here, trying I didn't move him. I was like, Jesus.

Kananair is huge.

He's a big boy.

He's one of the only guys that's got KOs in three different weight classes.

From heavyweight, light heavyweight, middleweight.

He's huge for 185, but it's another perfect example. I think, look, there's something to be said for the ritual of doing it for a lot of fighters. It means a lot. And you could choose to cut less so that you're more healthy the day of the fight. But everyone concedes you have to cut something. I just don't think that's smart 24 hours before a fight in a cage. Why would you deplete your body purposely? Because it's basically like getting drunk. It really is. You're dehydrating shit out of your body.

Seeing people just look a mess.

And you only have three, five, 40 hours to rehydrate between the weigh-ins and the time you're actually going to fight. If you're lucky, you have 40 hours. That's not enough time.

I can do it. I don't care to do it. I can do it. I agree with you. If If everybody was like, Okay, let's all just do it at our weights.

Well, imagine if people did dehydrate and rehydrate it, and we started calling it cheating. You know what I mean? I mean, it would be if people got caught and they looked at it the same way people look at people getting caught with steroids.

Fair, fair, fair.

Because the reality is right now, you can't do it because of the weight class limitations. There's too many weight classes where you're at. So 85 to 205, that's nuts. That's 20 pounds. For maybe Maybe people who've never grappled, they don't know what that means, or never been punched, they don't know what that means. But that's a giant amount of fucking horsepower and gravity on top of you. If you've got weight classes at a reasonable space, I feel like 10 pounds is good. I feel like every 10 pounds, you can get 45, 55, 65, 75. If you're in between, you either add muscle or you lose weight. You stop lifting as much weights and do more cardio. You'll get down to that right. Yeah, naturally. But that's what you are, what you actually are. If we did that, there would have to be some a hydration thing where they just show up and weigh you. People show up and drug test you now. Yeah, drug test. Yeah. Like, drug-free sport. They'll just knock on your door. Hey, Venom, what's up?

Can you be in this?

Let's talk.

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Yeah, just show up. What do you weigh? Get on the scale. Then you get on the scale. 190? Bro, you're a banum weight. This is crazy. Because there's dudes that are out there doing that. Oh, I know.

A hundred %.

We always talk about Glacin Thibau. When Glacin Thibau was 155 pounders, he looked like a bodybuilder. He looked like you weighed 200 pounds when he got into the cage. It was nuts, man.

The rehydration. I've seen people cut ridiculous amounts. And then, like you said, the way they rehydrate.

But it's also a lie. You're not 155 pounds. You're 200 pounds. That's what you actually weigh. And I understand why you do it. I understand why everybody does it. But there's got to be a better way. The worst I ever saw was Travis Luder when he fought Anderson Silva.

I don't remember that one.

He lost, but he had Anderson down. Travis Luder was an elite black belt, and he was in the ultimate fighter. Wins the ultimate fighter. I mean, dominates everybody. Dominates people on the ground. Everybody that I talked to, trained with him. It was like, guys on a whole another level as far as jiu-jitsu. And the day of the weigh-in, he can't make the wait. And he's so dehydrated that his lips are cracked, and he's He's not walking to the scale. He's shuffling. And I'm watching him. He missed the first time. And then this is one of the second or third time that he tried to make weight, and he eventually didn't make weight. So even if he beat Anderson, he wouldn't have won the title. But, bro, he had him down, and he was on top of him in the beginning of the round. For anybody that's ever rolled with Travis, if he was healthy and he has you down on the ground, you're fucks Bill. That guy's good. He was really good. But it was just the weight was way too much. He was You just drained. Then 24 hours later, you're supposed to fight one of the greatest fighters of all time.

And it depletes the liquid around your brain as well. So you're taking a shot, so you're not going to take it as well. Exactly. It's a lot.

Yeah, I agree. You're tired. Your endurance sucks. Everything's all fucked up. Everything's all fucked up.

But it's why I get down very close to my weight because on fight week, I'm very low.

What do you weigh? If you're fighting 185, what are you weighing?

185 is easier, though. So 190. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I don't like to cut to you.

What about 170? When you're at 170?

I get down to probably about 182, 183. Not that bad. Not that bad. And then cut down from there.

That's not that bad.

Yeah. Again, I don't like to overstress myself.

Pereira weighed in at 185 and fought at 220.

He's massive.

Fought at 220. Yeah. Weighed in at 85, fought at 220. Yeah.

Like you said, that's a lot.

That's insane.

That's a lot.

That's insane. That's so much fucking weight. And what does that do to you?

I've seen people. I can't even remember what fire was. He was in Bellator. And he was banging the sauna to get out, and his coach was holding the door. Oh, God. You need five more minutes. And the guy is kicking the door like, bump. He's like, I'm never doing that. I don't ever want to feel like that.

That's so crazy.

So many guys black out. I've seen people passing out and stuff.

Brian Ortega was just in an interview talking about that. He essentially almost... How did he describe it? It was like 30 minutes where he was in real trouble for his last weight cut. Yeah, he's like, it's just He just got really wrecked. People have blacked out before he hit their head off the tub.

He was the lady that fell off the scales, wasn't it? She stepped back off the scales and then her legs just went. Oh, I don't remember.

30 minutes coma.

Oh, sugar.

Due to his weight cut for Aljamain Sterling. Holy shit.

Yeah, this is too much for him. Why doesn't he just go up?

Well, that's the problem is the guys at 55 are jacked. I think he dialed in his diet, though. He looks a lot thinner now. Pull up some of those photos he's got on his Instagram. He's been taking photos lately. He realized he can never do that again. So he's lost a lot of body fat.

Oh, that's good. I think sometimes it is the discipline of it as well.

Yeah, look at him now. Look at him now. Way Way leaner. Big difference. That's where he needs to be.

He hasn't been like that in ages.

Yeah, that's where he needs to be.

A hundred %.

He likes to live that good life.

Same. Even when you said about having random weight checks, it made me consider a certain burger sometimes.

Yeah, but they would have to give you an out-of-shape clause. No, of course. Give you 10, 15 pounds in between fights. But then once you start training, they should be able to randomly show up during those six weeks and go, All right, Michael, get on the scale. 174. Okay, good to go. Good to go. We're inside of 6 pounds. Because what you actually cut, what you're saying at 85 is perfect, in my opinion. That's nothing.

I don't like to be...

Five pounds is just a good weight sauna session. It's not that much. You're not losing a ton of weight. You're not killing yourself. Maybe you ride the bike for a half hour. What do you do?

I literally do a 30-minute jog. It's really low with a sauna suit on. Straight away, I take that off, go straight into the sauna, 15 minutes, then wrap, 15 minutes, then wrap, and I'm done.

See, that's perfect. That's actually probably therapeutic.

It's not bad for you at all.

That's probably actually very good for you because you're giving your body all this recovery from the sauna and you're getting a nice little cardio Vascular workout, but nothing crazy. You're giving yourself a lot of heat shock proteins. You're not killing yourself. But there's guys, man, I've seen them. They look like, okay, here's the worst one, the worst one. Other than Travis. Travis was the worst because I watched him shuffle backstage. But the visuals is T. J. Dilsha when he went down to Flyway. He fought Henry Cehuto at Flyway, and he looked like a dead man.

Yes, I remember this.

He looked like a hostage that had just gotten released and had not been fed.

Fed for ages. Yeah. He looked fucking terrible. Because he gets quite jacked as well.

Yeah. He fucked up. Yeah. He fucked up. Look at what he looked like on the left. That's crazy.

That picture right there. That's what I mean. He's quite big there.

Right. But that picture. That picture. That picture is fucking crazy. That's a prisoner of war. You know what I'm saying? That's not a guy. Look at what he looks like now. That's what I mean. Yeah. Well, now he's a fucking tank. Now he's a tank. The one on the right is not fair because that's how he retired.

Yeah, he's finished now.

He's probably a buck 65 now. He's fucking jack.

He's massive.

But he's another guy that doesn't get the credit that he deserves. When he fought Hannon Burrell-I love this style.

Pure flow style. It's the level changes of the up and you don't know where he's attacking. It's not linear. It's not just I'm going here or I'm going here. Switching stances constantly.

I used to love watching his style. Have you ever talked to Ludwig? No. You should meet Dwayne Bang Ludwig and talk to him because Dwyane is the one who coached him in that style. Dwyane, who was an elite kickboxer himself and fought in the UFC, at one point in time, I had the fastest ever knockout in the UFC. I think it was a five or six-second knockout in the UFC. He was one of the fastest ever. Just step back, one right-hand plan. But Dwyane was a beast. But maybe even better than he is as a fighter, he is as a coach. And he doesn't have that style. This is what's crazy. He devised that style. So this is Dwyane. Watch this.

There it is. Nice.

So you could call it six seconds. I don't even think it was six. I don't even think it was six. But the point is Dwayne's style, he learned from Boss Rutin, and it was like Dutch kick boxing style. But he realized Dwayne is this consummate studier of fighting, and he realized that the best way to fight is to overwhelm them with possibilities and options, but have a whole system of how to do that. So his system is all about switching stances and combinations while you're switching and turning and moving, but he's got it mapped out. The dude came over to my place with a binder, this thick binder of techniques. And he's full on egg head with this shit. And T. J. And him just locked up. And the fruits of that labor was the Henn and Burrell fight. Go to that fight, Jamie. Because I feel like this was one of the finest Championship performances at the time. I thought it was the best I had ever seen of a guy who was an underdog going into a fight. Henn and Burrell at that time, a lot of people thought was the pound for pound best.

It was him and Jose Aldo. They were talking about those two guys together, and T. J. Just went in there and worked them. It was like a sparring match. He went in there super loose, just moving around, started cracking them.

Yeah, it's a fun watch, though.

Just get me in there. This is like Henn and Burrell was the boogie man. Everybody was scared of this dude. He was so fucking good.

Look how he starts.

Step in with an uppercut. Just movement, constant movement, overwhelming you. And look, always on the tips of his toes, moving around. He didn't back up at all and never gave Hennie Burrell the chance to get some momentum going. And at the end, when he eventually stopped him, it was just a fucking ruthless combination when he took him out of there. But if you knew how difficult it is to be, look at that right-hand, right off the bat in the first round. At this point, Henn and Burrell is like, Oh, no.

I'm in problems.

Yeah, because nobody had thought that TJ was going to be capable of doing this. Tj was a really good up and coming fighter, a really good contender, but this was his finest performance, and it was in a world Championship fight against the guy that everybody thought was the man. T. J. Just beat that ass. If you go further, see if you can go to the actual stoppage, Jamie, it's like, further in the fight. At this point in time, T. J. Is just styling on them. Just standing right in front of them and popping them. Look at that. Not getting hit, staying right in range, dropping down.

Look at his head movement.

Look at that head kick. Oh, my goodness. Beautiful.

Look at this.

It's Artistic. It's fucking beautiful, man. Yeah, I love it. It's a beautiful stoppage. One of the best championship-winning performances in the history of the sport. Yeah, easy. In the history of the sport.

Yeah, beautiful.

But that dude, unfortunately, had two bum shoulders.

Oh, is that what it was?

Yeah, forever. Even when he won the title, his shoulders were fucked. He had torn super-spanatises in both of his shoulders.

I've done one on this.

It got to the point where he never got it fixed. It got to the point where they were just popping out. By the time he fought Al Jamain Sterling, he told the referee in the locker room, my shoulder's going to go out of pocket. Oh, yeah.

That's crazy to go in there knowing that that's...

So now he had to retire, and he had multiple operations on his shoulder, and he can't even reach over his head. He gets his arm that far. That's how fucked he is now. Three months ago, he's got to get another one.

Oh, yeah. You can see.

Jeez. Oh, my God. Get another soldier. They're going to cut off the head of my humorous and turn the head into a plastic plunger.

I hate it. That sounds like a bit too much. I hate it. It's like surgery for anything.

He has the worst shoulder injuries I've ever seen. I know there's been a lot.

Was that from before?

It was from wrestling. I think it's just from having torn shoulders and just trying to rehab them and not getting them surgically fixed. You can have some things loose in there and strengthen everything else up and be functional, but not if you're going to be a world Championship fighter. The problem with a lot of those things is once it tears and pulls back, you can't get it back in place. So then you have really complicated surgeries. They have to take a piece of your ham string and stick it up there or some other part of your body and reconstruct what was supposed to be there. And then you have to slowly build range of motion into it. He got to the point where he was too tough for the injuries that he had, where he should have probably got him fixed immediately, and maybe he could have prolonged his career.

It sounds like he went back in in terms of getting back into training a bit too quickly. I feel like the rehab can work. I know, obviously, there's certain things you're going to need surgery for, but there's a lot of my stuff I've managed to bring it back.

I don't think he had surgery until after he was done fighting.

Oh, so he didn't even have surgery?

No, he had surgery on one of his knees because He blew his knee out in the Sanhagen fight. Or I should say Sanhagen, after talking with Sanhagen about what happens in that 50/50 position, Sanhagen blew his knee out. Okay. So he put him in a position where if TJ didn't give in, he He was going to get his knee fucked up, and he chose to get his knee fucked up. But that was Cory putting him in that position. So he had to get an ACL reconstruction. But I don't think he got the shoulder surgeries until after he was done fighting. He might have gotten one and then tried to fight again. But the problem is, his shoulders were fucked, man. They were really fucked.

But that doesn't look fixed. For you to be having to...

No, it doesn't look fixed. But I think that's all they could do with it. That bad? I think it was that I'm looking at an article from right after that fight. It says his third shoulder surgery since 2019. Okay, so that's when he started getting them. And when was that fight? When was the last fight that he had? That was like 2023? The Aljo fight, I think, was '22. Okay.

Ufc 280.

Is it 2022? That's when this article was from me. Okay. So he had those shoulder surgeries. And then I know he's had a ton since. And since you look on his Instagram page, every few months, it's him and a sling.

Well, here we go, trying again. I know guys that are like, Surgery, surgery, surgery, surgery. Unless I'm forced to, I don't ever really go down a surgery route. I always try and figure it out a different way. Like, I've had, weird enough, it was both my shoulders, but one was super spinators, the other one was rotator cuff and some lat injury as well. But just slowly, to the point where I couldn't do a push-up. In my last couple of, was it Bellator fights? Yeah, my last few Bellator fights, I couldn't do a push-up. I could still hit in certain angles. I was fine, but I had no strength in that direction. While you were finding? While I was finding, yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. So literally, I'm getting like that, my arms would just start shaking. Why didn't you do something about that before you thought. I was doing rehab. I was like, As long as I can hit you, I'm fine.

That's so crazy. Going into a fight with that a major handicap.

I've had worse, but-What's the worst? I don't want to say it as an excuse. But the day before my Ian- Gary fight, I couldn't stand on my left foot. Why not? Up till today, I don't understand it. I had the UFC PI working everything. They did shock therapy, they did acupuncture, they were doing everything. If you see the fight, I literally had a... If you see the fight, I literally had an ankle supports on. They said, You're allowed the ankle supports. You can't really have it tape. But I had it taped under the ankle support. But obviously, I couldn't just do one ankle. So you had to do both of them. So I had to do both of them. The day before the fight, I'm not sure if I did anything when I was cutting weight, twinged it or something, but I don't remember anything distinct happening, but couldn't walk on my foot.

So it was your ankle?

You twisted your ankle? It was my ankle or something. And they were working on it.

I was in You don't have a single instance where it went?

I don't remember anything.

All of a sudden, it just hurt.

It hurt the night before. When you woke up? It hurt the night before. So on the way in, it hurt. And I was walking around and I was like, it hurt, but it didn't feel like anything drastic. And overnight, it just got worse and worse and worse.

Probably exaggerated by the weight cut, right?

Maybe, yeah. And then literally the next day in the morning, we had to go to the PI. My coach was like, Bro, you can't bounce I'm going to have to pull you flat. I was like, There's no way I can get pulled from this fight. It's not happening. I was like, It's not happening. Wow. I went out there and he's like, I'm bouncing. I'm trying to adjust myself and bounce. They did the tape that he was going to use for the fight, and he said he'll come in and do it again just before the fight. I was just like, adjusting. Obviously, I had a- Still had a great performance. Yeah, I had my... My videographer, Kishan, he filmed... We're doing a documentary, so he's filmed all of it as well. I was like, I'll wait till it comes out as known, but not even to say as an excuse because I was able to adrenaline, just I'm in it now and fight. But there were certain things I was being cautious of and not wanting to do. But yeah, it was just irritating. But that's probably the worst in terms of how close to the fight it was because it's the day before.

But I've had injuries in the buildup and I'm like, if as long as I can throw a punch and throw a kick, I'll make it happen. That's the thing that people don't understand when they watch fights.

Sometimes guys... This is one of the things about the rematch this weekend, Ancalaya versus Pereira, is that Pereira supposedly had a fucked up left hand in Rotovirus before the last fight.

I believe it. He looked off. He looked off. He definitely didn't look himself.

But Ancalyev looked really good.

A hundred %. I don't want to take anything away from Ancalyev.

When someone looks off, it's like Roy Jones. People go, Roy Jones didn't fight anybody. No, no, no. Roy Jones fought everybody, but he made him look like they were nobody because they were fighting Roy Jones.

Exactly.

So is that what's going on? Is his ankle eye of that good? And so we don't know. So we got to see him fight again.

I'd only say No, it's because towards the fifth round, it looked like Pereira could do some stuff. It's like, okay, you're actually now landing that calf kick a bit more now. It's like, why didn't you start like that?

He didn't have the gas.

Yeah.

If you got rotovirus, your gas is very low, and probably your energy level feels very low.

So he's conserving energy. So this is what makes this fight so much more interesting because hopefully he's had the camp he is. Ankliv hopefully comes in looking exactly the same way he did that last fight. Or better.

Or better. He's going to be better because he's going to be the champion. I think there's a thing that happens. Daniel Cormier has expressed this, too. It's like a 30% bump when you become the champion. When you were talking about when you won that tournament, also you were better. I think there's that when you get the championship. Hopefully, you're going to get to experience that.

You'll get to experience that bump.

But I feel like we're going to have to see, and it's a very intriguing one. Because Pereira, if you heard his left hand, that's the doom punch. Exactly. That left hook, that's death. That's the one. That's the one. If you look at his highlight reel, there's so many left hooks.

When he catches people with that, even when he grazed Jamal Hill. I still don't get it now. He grazed him.

He's got a A hell of a punch on him, man.

You got a hell of a punch.

The Yuri Prohaska one at the end of the first round, Yuri was like, Yo. And then he headkicks him in the beginning of the second. Yeah, he's got ferocious power.

That head kick was fast. That head kick was fast as well.

Boy, I hope he's healthy. But I heard he's super heavy coming into this week. Oh, is it? I heard he's like 230 going into this week. But for him-I guess he's got a lot to cut. Yeah. Some guys can do it. I don't know what the fuck they're doing.

Well, I guess if he was able to get to middle weight. But also sometimes it makes you lazier as well. Like, oh, I can do that. I can eat this. And then you get close to the time. A bit of work now.

Well, he has talked about moving up. Again? Yeah. And so has Uncle Lion.

Oh, yeah, actually, he has. Yeah.

Akaleya just said that recently, that he wants to defend the title a couple of times, then move up to heavyweight.

I think it's a bit too small.

Maybe, but if you put size on and he gives himself enough time, he's got the skill set and Aspinal is going to need some fucking challengers.

Yeah, fair.

Unless Cyril Ghan beats him.

Yeah. But then does he need... I always say the time that Jon Jones took off to get to heavyweight, does he need that time? Because it takes a while to put on size like that. Not sure. It takes ages.

Not when you're over in Russia.

Fair. Enough said.

Real difficult to get those fucking drug testing guys on a plane. If they do, everybody knows when they're landing. Fair. Good luck. Fair. Still going into the bathroom while those guys pee. You will accept a glass of urine. I will hand it to Fertale. He handles it to you. This is clean urine. I'm not accusing him of doing that, but I know it for sure. It happens. Listen, it was always the joke about guys going over to Thailand. Why are they going over to Thailand? It was a good training. And also really hard to get those USADA guys on a flight.

I know that. I thought it was a lot of speculation about that. I just don't care enough because, like I said, I don't really have a schedule for anything, even the good stuff, the things you're supposed to be doing. I'm just like, I'll do it.

So you're not like a supplement guy?

At all. I don't take protein shakes at all. No? Nothing? Nothing.

Nothing. That's crazy.

Never. Never I've been into it.

Multivitamins?

Vitamins, yeah. But again, I just forget to take them. Seriously, ADHD mind. I'm just like...

You should have someone who makes a little packet for you. Yeah.

So I'm going to get my wife to do it soon because She's very into that. She's very into her fitness and stuff. She's a Pilates Instructor. She's got her own Pilates app and stuff. Smartly, well, I don't even know if she even intended it that way, but she blew up over COVID because she set up her app at that time and now everyone's at home. Perfect timing. You know what I mean? It's just perfect timing. She just blew up her app circle, Cloud9 Collective, and she does Pilates for Women. Have you ever done Pilates yourself?

Yes, I have.

Bro, I did a video with her and got her to train some MMA, and then she's like, okay, you come and do this for lies. She killed me.

It's a lot more difficult than I thought.

It's so much... But I didn't know. But it's weird muscles. Yeah.

Inside of your leg muscles.

But that's what's actually helped with a lot of the rehab side because It's those muscles that we bypass. We go to the big muscles. We want to work these muscles. And it's all those little ones that are not getting worked. And those are the ones that are injured. Stabilizers. Stabilizers. And I didn't know that it was a man, I forget his first name, but called Something Pilates, who started it for men in war to help recover guys in war to get them back out to war. But it's become such a female-led sport.

Well, that goes to speak about what I was talking about with the Russians and being technical. You know who was really into Pilates? Kovalev. Remember when Kovalev was the light heavyweight champion, the crusher? He was fucking everybody up. He was big in the Pilates. He was doing Pilates all the time, and everyone was like, Wait a minute. What?

That guy? The strength from Youget can get from anywhere because like I said, those smaller muscles that help facilitate the bigger muscles, it's crazy.

It's the same people that look down on yoga like, Bitch, go to a 90-minute hot yoga class.

Okay, I I did that. It's hard. And I was like, I'm going to go to a yoga, a hot yoga. I was more thinking it's nice to get the sweat going and stuff. I remember the lady, she's like, Oh, yeah, go to... If you go to that side of the room, it's quite hot. So if you're new to it, just go to this side of the room. And I was like, This woman, whatever, man.

Get over that hot side.

Let me go to that hot side. And she's like, Oh, if you ever feel faint at all, you don't have to continue, you can just sit down. I was like, What's she talking about? It's not that hot in here.

Google me, lady. Bro.

I think three moves later, I slowly just moved the mat. I didn't want to go too far, but I moved from the hot side of the room to the middle-ish, closer to that side. And then there was one move, I was just stretching, and I literally just got light headed. I was like, Shit, this is real. It's real.

It's real. You see all those little ladies in there and you think, Oh, this is easy. It's difficult.

My wife is strong as hell, and I'm just like, yes, it has to be from that. And the When I do this, I did a session with her this morning because she does some great sessions. When I do sessions with her, she kills it. I have to say she's smart in how she's done it as well because actually, something I didn't know because on her rap, she's done a cycle I'm thinking, specifically for women. I didn't realize that women have a, obviously, I knew women, 28-day cycle and men have a 24-day cycle. 24 day cycle, 24 hours, and they have 28 days days. So there's specific times that they should be training harder than they shouldn't be training, or they should be doing this, or should be doing that.

Based on biometrics?

Based on just them as a-Time of the cycle of the month. Time of the cycle of the month. But again, in my head, I'm like, There's girls that are training our class, and they have to train and do everything that we do. But we forget that we're just doing it based on that. Men can just keep going.

Women should think about that when they're scheduling fights.

A hundred %. That should be a thing. And as I said, she did it for plot. And I I looked into it and I was like, oh, there's actually... Even down to ice baths, great for you. Not for women, though. Really? Not all the time. But if you look into it, so there's specific times that's okay for them, but they shouldn't put their body under that stress in the same way that we can.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. So when I started looking at it, there's loads of things that we forget that a lot of times it's done from a male point of view. Forgetting that we're just different.

I never would have thought about that in terms of their menstrual cycle and fighting. But of course.

Yes, of course. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Wow. So, yeah, she's put it on. So individuals can actually be like, it was scheduled and say, look, you're good. Specifically for you, are good to train intensely today or No, you need a very relaxed session. And these videos, she's got hundreds of videos on her thing that will come up and be like, this is for you, this was for you, this was for you. But again, it just made me think about the women in MMA, like you said. It's the same thing scheduling. Even down to for them, weight cutting At a certain time, you're going for the elute of your face, they're holding weight. It's just different. We don't have any of those issues to worry about, but we get them to do the same structure as we would do.

That's a very good point.

You know what I mean? They should be more information about that, even for the female fighters.

Yeah, they should actually be... Their coaches should be setting fights entirely based on... I wonder how many fights they would have won that they couldn't really train right because they were cramping up.

We're just different.

I've seen some videos of you. You do a lot of pliometric stuff as well, right? And is that something you've always done?

Well, it comes with just the... This is why I feel like I can bounce on my cars for ages, just because of that constant. And it seems to be a thing now. I didn't really understand it well enough. It was just how I trained.

Did you train like that from the beginning?

Yeah, just because of the points fighting style, it's a lot of that shifting. Right.

But back then when you were doing that, were you just doing the martial arts training or were you doing specific-Marshall arts trainingMarshall with pliometrics.

With pliometrics. The reason why we did Plyometrics more so is because we were also doing a lot of our catters. We did martial gymnastics, so the forms. I had to learn how to do these crazy kicks and stuff in which I would then... This is why I would try 720s, not because I just randomly decided to just throw it out today. It's because we were drilling them just for catter, though. And I was like, well, if I can do it for catter, then I can... Surely I can find the time to throw it when I'm fighting. And I would be brave enough to try and attempt these things in the points fighting world. And there's a couple of kicks. I keep telling people, there's a couple of kicks that even for me, I haven't even shown you what I can actually do yet. There's a couple of kicks that I know I can land. And usually it's easier on people that are well-trained. So usually the better writer, it's actually easier to hit them just because they are very traditional. They're very well trained. They have patterns that I can pick up on them. I'm like, you're going to step this way and you're going to do that.

And I always tell people, I call it attaching strings. The first minute of the fight, not too much happens for me because I'm faking this, that, that. But every time I'm faking something, you twitch. I'm like, this means this. You twitch, this means this, and I'm just touching strings to you. So now I'm moving you. You just became Pinocchio. And that's important. This is why, like you said, all those fakes, but those fakes mean something. Like you said, I'm getting that information from you. Okay. Yeah, he wants that. If I do this, he wants that. Okay, I see it. Okay, perfect. Now I got it.

Yeah, that's what's so important for a casual fan to understand, that there's a whole game taking place. If you could play it, you would understand what he's But you're just seeing movement, random movement. You're like, Hit him. Why don't you hit him? Meanwhile, if you knew, you'd be watching something beautiful.

Yeah, exactly.

You're watching a dance, a snake charming.

That's it. It's part of the identity, man. It's part of the identity. I try to tell people, though, but yeah.

Do you know when you're fighting again? Have they given you any an idea?

Like I said, I pushed out information. I keep chasing up to find out, and I haven't really heard too much back.

They're You're announcing some fights now, right?

That's what I'm saying. It feels like things are slowly starting to happen. I'm still waiting.

So Prates is going to fight Leon Edwards? Yeah, that's been a good time. So 170, which is what you're looking at the most, right?

Yeah, I want to get back. I know I'm big now, but You can make it, though. I've seen you make it. I can make it. And you're just trying to get it. I want to get back down. And you're just trying to get it. I can make it. I want to get back down. And you're just trying to get it. Yeah. I want to get back down to 170. Just because, like I said, I feel like... I think JDM is a great, an amazing fighter. I just feel stylistically, I beat him.

It's a very good style for stand-up for you. That's for sure. He's very complete.

Very complete. Yeah, he's very, very good. Yeah, very complete. I really like his style. And very smart. You can tell he's very smart. He has been specific to the opponent. He's like, Okay, yeah. But like I said, that's one of the advantages. It's going to be very difficult for you, even as smart as you are, to figure that out.

Well, that's why it's exciting for you with any stand-up fighter. As soon as you're fighting a guy who likes to stand up, it's like, Are you sure? Are you sure you like to stand up?

I tell people this all the time.

Welcome to this new thing that you've never experienced before.

I made these guys wrest, man. I made all these stand-up guys wrest, and everyone's like, I'm going to strike with you.

Well, listen, brother, I can't wait to see you in there again. I'm a giant fan. I'm so happy You're at the UFC now. I know you do a lot of stuff online, so tell people how to find you.

Yeah. So again, it's all the social media, Michael Venin page, everything, Instagram. I don't really do Twitter as much or X, sorry. My Facebook, YouTube, I'm doing a lot of stuff. Itm, actually, I'm doing a film company. I always try to set myself up for the next stage. My creative mind won't stop even when I-Do you want to make movies? I'm making movies. Really? I've already made two short movies. Wow. And again, the same- Congratulations. Thank you. That's awesome. Thank you. And I want to get into acting as well.

What are they about?

The first one was actually about an athlete's mindset. One thing that I find with films, I think people lazy watches nowadays. They find just explosion, explosion, action, action, action, and crap storyline. But I want story telling, again. And this one is just more about an athlete's mindset. I did it through the eyes of a runner, just because it's slightly different. I didn't want to just go down the same lane as MMA. Did it through the eyes of a runner and just how toxic you want and your need to be the best, how it can look like. Again, go into that one. I'll let people watch that one. That one is just called Runner. The next one is called Wait. It's about what anxiety can look like from a position of waiting for good news and a position of waiting for bad news and how the parallels work and look almost identical. So you're literally watching two point of views. So these two.

So this dude's just freaking out, waiting for...

Yeah, he's That's fucking cool that you're doing things like that. Thank you, man. That's very cool. Like I said, I'm a creative mind. I need to express it in some way. I know when I leave, I'm not going to be one of those guys that retire and want to come back. I retire and want to Come back. If I say I'm done, then I'm done. Well, that's great. And I need something else to go into.

Nothing better than having something you look forward to that you actually enjoy and love outside of it. Because it's hard. It's very hard for guys to end. It becomes your identity.

A100 %.

And the thrill, you know more than anybody. The thrill of doing that is above and beyond almost anything else you experience in life.

My thrill is, usually, for me anyway, it comes from expressing art. And we call it martial artist. As much as people see the Sometimes the blood, the knockouts and stuff, it's art. We just watched TJ Diller show. That was art. Art. That was pure art. People don't appreciate that side of it. I love to paint pictures, and I'm like, How can I continue Painting pictures after this stage of my life. I'm like, okay, yeah, cool.

Well, listen, man, if you make movies like you can fight, I'm in.

Trust me. We're doing big things. My camera guy, Kishan Lakhayne, it just worked. The synergy He's just worked. He's directing films like he's done it for 20 years, and he's just unbelievable. That's awesome. We're going to do some magical things.

I love hearing stuff like that. I really do. I really do.

Like I said, I got a gift for you. Anyway. What do you like? Red or black? You can have both if you want. What is it? Just a T-shirt. Oh, nice. It represents who we are, hands down, martial arts. There's guys that do this, and everyone mocks all the time. But it's obviously my brand. So extra large. Large? Yeah. Let me see. Large.

Thank you very much.

Here you go. Thank you. Then also, I'm into everything, but I got a beef jerky company called Snapdown Snacks for snapping people, wrestling, snapping them down.

Snapdown Snacks.

So Snapdown or Snackdown and some Snapdown. Thank you very much. Thank you. Here you go, man.

All right.

Fantastic. Yes. Enjoy. Let me know what you think.

How do people find that company?

Is Is it a website? Yeah, just snap down on... Snap down snacks. Yeah, yeah. Affluent fuel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're in the UK next or when you're in the UK next, let me know. I got a Mexican restaurant as well, Ixal. Wow, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's great. You're invested in all kinds of things.

We actually had Kendall Jenner's 818 tequila featuring in there. We're going to have Jason Momoa come in end of this month with his vodka, Mele Vodka. Look at you. Moving and shaking. We're everywhere.

All right, man. I'll see you this weekend. Yes. Thank you for doing this. Thank you, man. My pleasure.

I really enjoyed it.

I did, too. Thank you. Bye, everybody.