Transcript of #2499 - Marcus King New

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The Joe Rogan Experience.

Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night.

All day!

What's up, Marcus?

Good to see you, brother.

It's crazy to be here.

It's crazy to have you here, man. And thank you so much for the guitar. That's the dopest shit that anybody's ever given me.

Oh man, I hope you like it.

I'm sure I like it. I just can't play. And I would love to learn how to play, but I know my brain and I can't give my brain another thing to do.

You got a lot.

Well, the problem is I get obsessed with things.

Me too.

I'm sure you can't get as good as you got without getting obsessed.

Are you like this? Like, I don't like doing things I'm not good at.

I love doing things I'm not good at to get good at them.

Right. But it's just, it's not leisurely to me to play golf. Like, I can't enjoy it because I'm bad at it.

Well, you'll enjoy it if you get good at it. But the problem is to get good at it, then you got to get obsessed. Yeah. And then you got to take less. Like, Jamie's got a fucking virtual reality thing in the back where he whacks balls every day. He's a—

oh yeah, he's obsessive.

Recovering from hitting today, sweating.

Wow, hot. My drummer's a really good golfer.

Golf is one of those things that if you get into that, man, that's your whole fucking day.

Yeah, he goes out hours, 3 or 4 days a week on the road.

When I was living in Boston, I noticed that the comedians that really got into golf, their career kind of stalled. Because all they were, they were just playing golf all day, having fun, drinking, and then they'd go to the club at night, but they weren't writing any new jokes. They weren't obsessing on their career. They kind of stalled out a little.

When I still drank, I really liked golfing. Yeah, I quit drinking. I was like, I don't really like this.

When did you quit drinking?

Well, I quit a few times, but most recent time was like a year and a half ago.

Were you quitting because it was too— you were just off the rails, or like, gotta get your health in order?

It was kind of a combo deal, you know. Like, when I met my wife, at that point I thought that I could drink like a gentleman, and it just never really worked out that way. There's just something in me that just wanted to completely burn my life to the ground. Every time I drank, you know, a real destructive quality.

Oh, that's not good.

Yeah, yeah.

Fortunately, I never had that, but that is a thing. I've seen that. What is that?

I think it's— I think a lot of it is repressed emotions, um, and that's where they find you when you— when your brain is off the bottle.

Yeah, yeah, they go, hey Marcus, yeah man, let's get those problems out.

It seduces me. It's like, you don't need anybody, fuck everybody. That woman that married you, she— you don't want her.

Like, I think sometimes people do that to almost like save themselves from heartbreak. Sometimes you kind of like wreck it yourself.

It's like making fun of yourself before anyone else can, right? It's like that thing.

Yeah, right. Just assume it's gonna go bad eventually. Let's get this fucking train on the tracks right now. Crack, pour, break.

Yeah, that was, that was kind of my, you know, that was my approach for a while. I just, um, I don't know, man. I was just, I didn't want to feel anything. So that was all, that was where it would always end up. And I remember even asking my wife, like, A couple years ago, we opened up for the Avett Brothers in Raleigh, North Carolina. And at that point, I'd been sober for like 6 months. And I was like, I really think I can handle it. And then cut to— it's like famous last words. I chugged a jumbo White Claw. I started with a jumbo White Claw. And I just got completely hammered, blacked out. Pissed my wife off so bad. Like, I woke up. I was at our friend's house still, like on the floor, and she left in my bus. And like my wallet, everything was on the bus. I had no identification. She was like, you can fucking figure it out, man.

Wow.

And the bus turnaround come and got me. But yeah, she doesn't play any games.

So did you stop then?

Yeah, I did.

Oh, so one night?

Yeah, I had one night off the leash and I realized I couldn't handle it. There's just some kind of quality in me that's like, I can't stop, you know? And maybe someday I'll find that. It's like, I gotta get right in here, you know, and in here with myself before I can really consider that again.

I quit drinking for about 8 months just 'cause I realized I just wasn't feeling good. I was doing it 'cause of the club. I was at the club every night. And, you know, it's like one night someone would say, hey, let's do shots. I'll do a shot. I want to be, you know, cordial, hang out with everybody, sense of community. Let's all do it together. Come on, boys. And then, you know, two drinks, three drinks, go home, get up, feel like shit, work out, do it again the next day, feel even shittier the next day. And it's like, goddamn, I got to take some time off. So I took about 8 months off. I think I'm not exactly sure how much time I took off. And then I had like a drink with Dinner one night and I said, "This is all right." And so since then I've never gotten drunk. I've only had a drink or two.

Yeah.

You know, so I've managed it, but I was not an alcoholic. I was just realizing that all this fun was, it was messing up the rest of my time. I was like, what is it? There's an expression. That when you're drinking, like, the— you're, you're taking a loan out on the good times that you could have had for some good times you can have right now.

Wow.

Then you got to pay it back.

Yeah, with interest.

Yeah, well, physically, the problem is physically for me it just wasn't worth it. I just— I would be working out at the gym going, why, why am I doing this? I keep feeling like shit. And every time I'm working out, I'm pushing through all this, you know, toxic shit that I poured down my throat the night before, and my body's recovering from it, so I feel tired and drained. And then my brain wasn't working as well, you know.

That was— that's what it was for me, was like the anxiety and just like the dopamine depletion and just feeling just completely just like— and I'm somebody who's already struggling with like, that's why I drink in the first place. It's like my mental issues and just anxiety and depression, and then it would just kind of hit me tenfold the next day.

It's always interesting to me when someone with anxiety chooses a path in life like live performing.

Yeah.

Because if there's anything that gives people anxiety, it's live performing. And you're really good at it.

Well, thank you.

Crazy. It's like, you know, you're, you're picking this thing that you're really good at, but that gives a lot of people anxiety, and you have anxiety to begin with.

Yeah, I mean, it's like there's something to that. It's like Dan Soder, I always quote him on this, he's like, you know, I go around each night like craving the approval of like thousands of people a night. You're like, you didn't think I was doing that because I things went well growing up, right? Like, I'm fucked up. I need, I need all these people to tell me I'm doing a good job.

But I think the idea is that eventually you channel that, and when you get yourself to get the idea— some people have this idea that if you ever get yourself together somewhat, you know, I don't think anybody ever gets totally together, but you get yourself together somewhat, and then you don't you don't do it for the approval of it, you do it for the love of the art of it. Mm-hmm. The thing, and bringing the thing to people, and getting enjoyment out of having these people have a good time.

Yep.

I think you— I think that can be done. I think you can shift your focus from, I just want these people's love, to I want to give them love. I want everyone to have a good time. You know, I want to be up there just fucking having a good time, they're having a good time, we all have a good time together. I make their lives feel better for a brief moment. I feel better. Everybody's— This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Once you've got a great name for your business, you need a great domain, and Squarespace makes it easy to lock in a domain. You just search the name you want, buy it, and then you're ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird upsells. Go to squarespace.com/rogan for a free trial, and when you are ready to launch, use the code ROGAN to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Everybody's better off.

And that's the shit, man. Yeah, that's what I crave. And I mean, that's why, like, we just did a run of Texas Honky Tonks, which— that's what— that was kind of the goal, was just to get everybody in these sweaty rooms just for the purpose of just, like, enjoying music again, getting back to these sticky floors.

Yeah. Well, you reached out to me because we were talking on the podcast about how rock and roll is kind of dead. Fucking rock and roll ain't dead, come on. And I was like, I was like, all right, well, is there anybody that could tell me that rock and roll's not dead? It's Marcus King, man.

Yeah, I was, uh, my boy Ben Jernigan, he told me, he was like, you should text Joe because I'm an avid listener. I was like, you think I should say something? He's like, yeah, fuck, tell him rock and roll ain't dead, man. It's here tonight, Green Hall.

Well, it's not dead, but it's different. And a lot of the rock that's out now that's doing really well is like a Southern-inspired rock, which is interesting. It's like a Southern, almost country-like rock, like bluesy country rock, you know, Red Clay Strays, like that kind of shit. They're doing great. Yeah, it's like there's a lot of that out there, you know, like people, people are digging that kind of music, but there's just You know, when I talk about like rock, I mean like when I was in high school, it was all Van Halen, AC/DC, like that. There was so many big rock and roll bands, The Stones, you know, there was just so much of that out there. And it's odd that there's not a lot of big bands like that anymore.

I think it's coming back around.

I hope so. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me because like the classic rock is still like— we're in the green room and Freebird comes on, still everybody's going nuts. I mean, you know, I mean, there's classics— another Southern rock and roll band, Lynyrd Skynyrd— but there's, there's still like a love of that kind of music, but it's just, it's weird that it kind of, you know, it just didn't— I don't know what happened.

Well, it's interesting how cyclical the music industry can be. Like, I feel like for the first time in the last 10 years, like since Urban Cowboy came out, like, because I mean, for the last 10 years I've been going to LA with a cowboy hat on and I always get the same shit, like, well, where you want to park your horse? You know, like, what are you up to, cowboy? People just talking shit. But now I go out there and everybody's got a cowboy hat on.

Really?

It's like chic. Yeah.

That's interesting.

It's like in Vogue, like the cowboy thing.

And— which makes you not want to wear a cowboy hat.

Well, you know, it's just— I think rock and roll is kind of having a similar resurgence.

God, I hope so. I hope so. You know, I mean, there's got to be people out there that still love it, and I just don't— I mean, I just don't understand how there's no new big bands like that.

Well, it's interesting, you know. I was actually— I was in the gym watching Led Zeppelin at Royal Albert Hall.

Oh wow.

And I was like, this is a fucking jam band. They're jamming, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, it just— like, the Allman Brothers Band was a jam band. Like, they had guidelines And that's kind of how we do our show. Like, we have songs that we're playing just to get to that improvisational section where we can just kind of, you know, work with the chemistry of the crowd and each other on stage. And it's just, it's interesting to me, like, the way things have become subdivided, you know. It's like, you're not a jam band unless it's like Widespread or like Phish or like the Dead or something like that. But like, Zeppelin was a fucking jam band.

Yeah, in a lot of ways, yeah. Especially when they're performing live.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's— What is that band that sounds like Zeppelin?

Greta Van Fleet.

Yeah, Greta Van Fleet. They're fucking great.

They are great.

It's weird. It's weird 'cause they sound so much like Zeppelin, but they're really good. So like, I give them a pass.

They get a pass from me. I mean, they're my boys. I really, I really like those dudes. Like, we used to party together a bunch. They live in Nashville, and the guitar player Jake, he's, he's just the sweetest guy. Like, he gave me a housewarming gift. He's like really into pirate stuff.

Pirate stuff?

Yeah, he's really into piracy, and he gave me, he gave me like a, like a, like a musket pistol. Oh wow, what a pirate would have carried around.

I got a real one. Yeah, so like from the olden days.

Yeah.

Oh shit, that's gotta be worth a lot of fucking money.

Yeah, I mean, they're doing pretty well.

Wow, what is an old musket pistol run? How much can you get one of them for? See if you can find something, Jamie. Yeah, an old musket pistol. You know, when the conquistadors took over Mexico, that's— they had 12 of those. That's it.

12 guns.

12 musket pistols.

Wow.

Yeah, I looked that up on Perplexity. I was diving deep into how the fuck Mexico became Spanish. Yeah, you know, like what happened? How did it— like they lost like 100 indigenous languages at least. Wow, it's kind of crazy. But here it is.

What?

You can get one for $195?

Modern reproduction.

Oh, reproductions. What about a real one down here? Antique ones. Uh, 17th century Barbary Wars antique pirate flintlock pistol recently sold for $416. That's it? No, that seems crazy. That seems crazy. That's a—

it's pretty good for a gift budget.

I'd say it looks— based on how many reproductions and what you just said, there being 12 back then, there might not be that many of them that exist. They have to make reproductions.

But if this says antique pirate era muskets and it said it sold for $416, I mean, from the 17th century, maybe it sucks. Maybe it's some adeline. That's all they can get. But it's from the 1600s and it sold for $416.

I'll try to look it up.

Can you see what, what those look like? We'll see if we can get one. We should get one and put it on the wall. Oh shit, look at that one. Yeah, how much is that one?

I think that's the one that sold for $400.

That says $155.

What?

That's crazy. How are they so cheap?

There's the one for $416.

God, that seems like they should be almost priceless. I mean, this is from the fucking 1600s and it's sold for $400. That one sold for $200. Wow.

I think you can just go pick them up. There's a store in Austin. I bet they've got a bunch.

No way. Yeah. Really?

I went to the store. They've got a bunch of weird shit like this. They must— they would have to have them if they're only $300, I guess. I would say. And all kinds of armor and guns and cannons and weird shit.

What? What place is this?

It's called like Collector's— I'll look it up real quick.

There's something weird about those dudes who like want to recreate wars.

Yeah.

That's an odd thing. That's a very odd thing.

Yeah. I mean, I've got the facial hair of a Civil War reenactor, but that's about as close as I get.

Oh wow, that's in Austin?

Yeah.

No shit. Yeah, well, that's pretty fucking dope. Yeah, Collector's Crossroads popped in there one day to see what it was about, and they have little musket pistols.

They got all kinds of shit.

I wonder, how do you know the crossbows, swords? Crossbow is just a shitty gun. I'm not a fan.

What if it was a pirate's crossbow?

Yeah, I guess it's kind of cool. But it's just, uh, it is weird that we're really into like old, like, you know, it's interesting. You're holding something that's a piece of history, and what history is like, at the time this was the shit. Like, at the time this was like the coolest thing you can get. Like, 400 years ago, if you wanted to kill somebody, this was the way to do it. You had to get one of these things, which is very odd. Yeah, it's just very odd that Oh, look at all this stuff.

I don't know if it was George Washington shit there, but they had— that's what it looks like it would be.

George Washington swords?

I don't know.

We should get one of those for Shane. He's a big George Washington fan.

There you go.

Oh wow, look at that. That's crazy.

So yeah, I mean, I don't even know.

That's a weird one. Look at the handle on that fucker.

This is from Middle East, Central Asia. It could be—

oh look, it's got like a dragon mouth on the back of it.

That's pretty sweet. Wow.

Huh.

All right, so we need one of those. All right, let's take a road trip, Jamie. We should probably do it before this episode comes out.

Grab it tonight.

Yeah, we need to go down there today before this episode goes— fuck up their business. You go there, it's empty. All these dorks have fucking armor all over their house now. It's just people that are really into like the old wars and recreating old wars, I always I would want to know, like, what's wrong with you? Like, what happened?

Yeah, it's, um, I grew up with a kid that was like that, that was obsessed with like everything Army, Navy. But his father was in the military, but he had never gone into the military. They wouldn't, they wouldn't accept him.

Why?

I don't know. He was— I don't think he could ever pass the physical. He was a bigger dude.

Oh, okay.

His name was Maurice.

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I believe it, man, just based on my own experience. Like, I remember the Presidential Fitness Test. Like, that's a bad memory of mine, just hanging on the pull-up bar in front of all my classmates and not being able to do one pull-up, just hanging there.

What is the Presidential Fitness Test?

It's something they did when I was a kid. It's like they wanted to make sure that you could do like 10 push-ups or however many pull-ups or whatever.

How many pull-ups do you have to do for the Presidential Fitness Test?

There's different standards, but they literally— this was going on last week. They just started it up again. Donald Trump had like Bryson DeChambeau in the White House with a couple guys, Gary Player, the golfer. Well, they had kids in there also.

That's funny. It's funny because you I'd go, hey, why don't you do it? Let me see you do a chin-up, bro.

22 push-ups for a 10-year-old.

22 push-ups. That's a lot.

Yeah, 45 curl-ups. That's crazy.

6 pull-ups. That's a lot. What's a curl-up?

With the other way, like biceps, hands, you know, pull up with your hands.

45?

Yeah.

Come on. That's crazy. Wait a minute.

An 8-minute mile.

Come on. Is that really— it says 6 pull-ups or 45 curl-ups, but curl-ups aren't that much easier than pull-ups, are they?

I remember when I was 10, they were.

What?

But that's just being a 10-year-old because your body, you only weigh like 60, you know. I don't know, kids are light, usually lighter than I am.

I was heavier than most.

Yeah, I was gonna say there are different standards.

I remember kids, some kids, bro, 45 is crazy. That seems—

it seems excessive.

That seems like a lot of reps. I don't even understand how that's possible, that that's the standard. I don't think I could do that.

Uh, actually, I think there are— those are sit-ups. It's calling it a curl-up because here it says it measures abdominal strength.

Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, sit-ups. Okay. Oh, why are they calling it curl-ups? Because it was like 45 chin-ups. So it's like there's pull-ups and chin-ups. Which one's a pull-up? Which one's a chin-up?

Pull-up hands over.

Okay, and then chin up.

And I was saying, yeah, that's what I—

45 of those would be bonkers. That's crazy. I can't do that. That's because like 6 pull-ups I could do easy, but 45— but 45 sit-ups is still hard. That's hard too. Well, that's a lot.

It's a standard, huh? Not every kid's there.

That seems like a lot of kids wouldn't be there for 45 sit-ups. Yep. What are they trying to do?

What are they doing to us?

I would fail on that too so they couldn't draft me. These motherfuckers are talking about drafting people. I was listening to Tim Dillon's show and he was saying that— see if this is true— that Palantir thinks that we should reintroduce conscription, conscription, that kids should start getting drafted again into military and they should have mandatory military experience for kids. I just don't understand why anybody would want to support that. That sounds crazy. Especially after this Iran war where everybody's like, why the fuck are we in Iran? And if you signed up for that, that sounds nuts. Is that real? Palantir's public call for the US to move away from an all-volunteer military and towards some form of universal national service that many observers interpret as reintroducing a draft or conscription.

Yeah, Tim got into this manifesto that I didn't— I haven't looked into this yet.

Why the fuck would a tech company be saying that we need to move towards a universal national military service? How about fuck you? How about fuck you, Yugo? Because you know, none of these tech dorks that are running these companies, they're not doing it. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah, throwing meat into the machine, right? Throwing people's children into these unnecessary wars. Fuck you.

It's scary.

It's very scary. It's scary that they would— like, how about let's figure out a way to use your technology so there's no more wars? Wouldn't that be a better goal, right? Instead of getting kids to fucking learn how to go shoot people they don't know. Sure, because someone tells you to. And how many of these— out of all the wars that we've been in since World War II, is it zero that made sense? I think it's zero. I don't think there's one war that we've been in since World War II that makes any fucking sense at all.

Sure.

And they're like, I think the solution is we need more people to be forced into it.

I mean, what would a draft look like? In today's culture? I mean, like, with inclusion, would it be like anybody at 18 years old can be drafted, or do you think it would still be just able-bodied young men?

That's a good question. I, you know, I'm for people doing whatever they want, but when it comes to, like, combat, you're gonna draft women? That would be fucking insane. That would be insane. So are you not gonna— are you gonna be sexist? Are you gonna— yeah, are you gonna go inclusion and say everybody has to do it? Well, then that'll be good for America because most people would say, get the fuck out of here, not a chance in hell we're doing that, right? I just don't understand how people that aren't elected officials that essentially just run a tech company would think it's a good idea to call for national military service. I've heard other people say that too. I've heard like podcasters and weird tech people say it's a good idea, and I don't know what the fuck they're thinking. I think they should have to go over there and experience war and then, and then come back and see if you really think the same thing.

Sure, I buy that. I mean, or at least go on like a USO tour or something. Go with Jeffrey Ross, see what it's about, you know.

Well, then you're just gonna meet people that are happy to see you. You need to actually see combat. I just don't get why we're even listening to them. You make software, keep doing that.

Yeah, it's interesting that they don't even have the— like, why would they say that?

No, it doesn't sound good. And it's also, they make weird surveillance software that a lot of people are like, but how much are you surveilling? How much power do you have? Like, Tim Dillon went pretty deep on it on the show, which is— I can't recommend enough. If you did not listen to the Tim Dillon Show, you're fucking up. It's the funniest fucking take on all the chaos that's going on in the world. I don't think there's anybody better right now. His, his podcast is fucking phenomenal. It's my must-listen-to podcast every week.

Yep.

It's so good. I just listen. But if you watch it, it's even more ridiculous. He was— he did this thing about them giving Ozempic to babies. Oh, it was so funny. It was so ridiculous. Oh.

My dad did Ozempic, and he said, he said, man, you know, like, you can eat through that. He's like, you just keep going. I mean, you won't feel great, but you know, it curbs your appetite, but you can get it down.

Well, Tim talked about it because he did it, and he said it didn't just stop his desire for food, it stopped his desire for everything, which I've heard. Um, so there's some people that think there's some good in these GLP-1s for addiction, um, because it curbs whatever that is as well. So it can help people with all kinds of addictions too, not just like food addictions, alcohol, but gambling, like weird stuff.

I heard that. Yeah, I did. I actually, I was doing it for a minute and it was around the time that I was like One of the times I was trying to quit drinking and I was working on a record and I was trying it out and it actually curbed my desire for a drink.

Yeah?

Yeah.

What else did it do?

Gave me really bad stomach cramps.

Yeah.

And also, I mean, that was like before I really— I just, I don't know, at that time in my life I just wasn't really concerned about what I put in my body, you know. I say that while I'm smoking a cigarette, but, you know.

But dude, you're smoking natural spirits. I think those are safe and effective.

Yeah, you know, additive-free.

Yeah, I just, I always wonder about these things when things come along to give people an easy fix. Like, okay, maybe it works, or maybe there's some sort of side effect. That's gonna fuck you up for the rest of your life. And for some people there is. I mean, some people are experiencing all kinds of wild side effects. Stomach paralysis is one of them. Um, Bryan Simpson got pancreatitis from it.

Really?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, he was sick in bed for like 2 weeks. It fucked him up. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, the long-term effects, like, you just have no idea because it's new. Mm-hmm.

You know, I've also heard that The problem is the dosages are too high, and what, you know, when you go into a doctor, they give you a standard dosage, and the way to do it, some people feel, is to make a much smaller dose than what they're prescribing, and that that's what you need. You just need a little bit of a curb to it, not like a complete cessation of all desire to eat.

Right. Getting to that, that high dosage really fast could probably be harmful.

Or have some fucking discipline. Yeah, how about try that out? How about try out don't eat as much? Same thing, right? Except this way it's not gonna kill your body or kill your stomach or make you go blind or what— what are the side effects? Because there's a lot of lawsuits. There's a shit ton of lawsuits that are coming down the pipe because I think people have gone blind. I think I might have made that up. Check that. But this is some wild lawsuits.

Yeah.

Where people are claiming bad side effects from this stuff, which, you know, makes sense. It's medication. People vary biologically.

Can cause vision loss.

Permanent blindness.

Yeah.

In one eye. Oh, well, you know, you got your other eye and now you got a six-pack.

Eye stroke.

Eye stroke. Oh boy.

Wow.

Woo!

Non-arteritic anterior ischemic optic neuropathy. I don't think I said that right. Sudden, painless, and often permanent blindness in one eye. Wow.

Icebox sounds like a punk band.

It does. There's the other ones. Side effects, acute pancreatitis. That's what Brian got. Gallbladder problems, gastroparesis, stomach paralysis, bowel obstructions, and potential thyroid tumors. Hmm. Mild GI issues are common. These severe complications require immediate medical attention, often occurring more frequently at higher doses. Yeah, that's what they're saying. It's apparently when you're getting it from a pharmaceutical drug company, you're getting it— that this is the argument for, um, compounding pharmacies apparently. And then, then there's a new one that's coming out. What is it called? Retuitide?

Retatrutide.

Retatrutide. And this one is supposed to be better because it doesn't cause muscle loss and it doesn't cause bone density loss and it's supposed to be more effective. Huh. Investigational.

I mean, I don't know. I just typed in Retatrutide.

Isn't that a weird word? Investigational. Once weekly injectable triple agonist medication targeting GLP-1, GIP, and glucogen receptors developed by Eli Lilly, showing unprecedented weight loss results of up to 24% in Phase 2 trials. They said this is going to be a trillion-dollar medication. Or have some fucking discipline. Yeah, go to the gym, eat better, be healthy. Do what Jelly Roll did. Yeah, you know, Jelly Roll's at the club last night. He's down 300 pounds.

That's fucking nuts.

He runs like 5 miles a day. He works out every day. He looks fantastic. He looks like a different person. It's like I knew him when he was like 500 pounds, and now I know him when he's in the 200s. It's like he's a different human. He looks different. I know it's still Jelly Roll, but it looks like a completely different man. It's nuts.

I remember when we did— I was in the house band for Kill Tony at the Garden, and Jelly came out and did New York, New York.

Yeah, I was there.

That's got to be a custom suit. That's a big suit.

Yeah.

And then the next time I saw him, he was like he is now. And I mean, hell, like what I did, because like I have an appetite, you know, like what I do now, like I, I'm basically doing like a keto diet because I like to eat a lot of whatever it is.

Me too.

So if it's like a big salad, I you know, or whatever. But I'm down like 25 pounds doing that.

Oh, that's nice.

Yeah.

Are you doing this with the help of a nutritionist? Are you just doing it on your own?

Just doing it on my own.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're laughing.

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, it's just, um, I've tried a few different routes, man. I've been, I've been, you know, husky since I was a kid and shopping in the husky department at Kmart, you know.

Is this, uh, do you think it's a genetic thing? Do you think it's the way you ate as a child? What do you think?

I think psychological, a lot of it. Um, it was like the only thing I had control of as a child is like food. It was like, and a scarcity mindset as well. Yeah, just like the way that I, you know, think about food is just, you know, probably not the healthiest. So for me, it's just easier to say like I don't eat these things, because like if I eat bread or something like that, it just hurts my stomach now, you know. And I just— I can feel like the difference when I don't eat it, you know. I just feel better, I have more energy. 100%.

Yeah, yeah. And once you get your body working on ketones too, the thing is you've just— your brain functions better. That's one of the more interesting things. That's why people take things like, um, like ketone— what is it, Ketone IQ? That stuff's great. Like, you just down one of those little shots and it puts you into ketosis temporarily.

Oh, really? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, they're exogenous ketones. I think the guy who just invented those just died. He was also a guy that worked for BALCO Labs. He developed the, the Clear, that shit that Barry Bonds took. Okay, the steroids. So this guy was a chemist, he was a scientist. I think someone— oh, I think Chris Bell Chris Bell or Mark— I think it was Mark Bell just posted about it on his Instagram page that this guy just died. This guy was like one of America's great chemists, and he developed a lot of these things, including exogenous ketones, according to Mark. But, um, that's one of the things that I noticed when I went into— when I did the carnivore diet, is that immediately my brain just started functioning better. Which is what I try to eat most of the time. Like this morning I ate sausage and eggs, and sausage from an animal that I shot. I like to do that. I eat like a sable. This is the guy. So this is Mark's Instagram. The greatest chemist of our time, and possibly any other, Patrick Arnold is dead. Patrick Arnold's the guy who made the cream and the clear for the Bonds and McGuire, all that Bonds and McGuire blasted home runs off of supposedly.

In addition to those incredible inventions, he also brought exogenous ketones to the market. What happened to that guy? How did he die?

That's an interesting picture to put up. Yeah, looks like Oswald looking at Jack Ruby.

He looks healthy. I want to know how he died. I wonder how old that picture was. Organic chemist. Androstenedione too. Oh, he, he had all those, uh, pro What are those pro hormones or whatever those things were that people were taking that weren't totally steroids but they were kind of steroid-like? How did he die?

Does it say?

Uh, he died at 60. Hmm, maybe he's experimenting on himself. Why don't you just put in cause of death? I know it should come up. You would think a guy who's working on like performance and fitness— does it say?

No, there's a Reddit post, but I don't know.

When you click on what happened— oh, to David Arnold?

Somebody else.

Oh, Patrick Arnold. Huh. So it just doesn't say how he died?

Nope. And it just happened, so there's not a lot about it.

Oh, okay. So it hasn't been released yet.

Yeah, doesn't say.

He made a lot of roids. You got to wonder, the dude is like doing so much work in anabolic steroids. He worked for Balco. They were the ones that were making undetectable steroids. You know about that whole story? This is back in the— was in the '90s, Jamie? The, the McGuire around 2000. So they developed steroids that were undetectable. So when they would test for steroids, what they would do is they would take— because when— I guess the way it works is when they're doing a steroid test, they're looking for very specific molecules. So they invented a molecule that had like additional things attached to it where it wouldn't show up. I'm probably butchering that, but essentially they were undetectable steroids. One of them was called the Clear. And the guy who ran the lab was called Balco Laboratories. There was this guy Victor Conte who eventually went to jail for that. And then when he— I don't know why he went to jail, but he got out and then became an anti-steroid sort of activist. And he was— I don't want to say activist, but he was essentially— he was ratting people out. And saying that this guy's probably doing steroids and this is how he's doing it.

And then a lot of athletes were using his company to use steroid-free performance-enhancing supplements that were legal. So he would show you what's legal and how to do it. He knew a lot about it because he did the illegal stuff too.

Interesting. Yeah, I've got— I've gotten a couple steroid shots like before a show, like if my voice goes out.

Like, what kind is it? Like a cortisone?

Or I guess that's what it is. It's like that one that they shoot in your ass cheek.

Hmm.

What does that do, like, for your voice when your voice just brings you back? Man, it's got to be rough when a fucking singer loses their voice.

Yeah. I mean, people have asked me before, like, what my warm-up routine is, and like, I've never had one. And I mean, cigarettes, a couple cigarettes. It used to be a shot of whiskey. If I was really in dire straits, I would take like a handful of sugar-free gummy bears and put boiling water on that.

Really?

And then the gummy bears would like coat my throat.

Huh.

Like honey, ginger, lemon.

Yeah, hot water and lemon is a really good one. There's something about that that—

really, it's like time off is what fucks my voice up more than anything.

Time off? Yeah, really? Oh, so like your vocal cords get out of shape?

Mm-hmm.

Interesting.

Because it's hard to like keep them up, you know?

Right.

Unless you're like going in your garage and screaming for 2 hours a night, you know?

That's crazy. I never thought about it like that. Like your vocal cords are essentially a muscle like any other and they develop over time and you get endurance. That makes sense.

Yeah. So like the pandemic was like the first time that a lot of us like had any extended amount of time off from the road, and we all started noticing, like, or at least me, like, I came back like hurting a little bit.

Oh, that makes sense. I saw Guns N' Roses in Athens, Greece, and Axl Rose, you know, has that crazy singing style. Yeah, it's like a— like, and that has to be fucking hell on your voice. And, you know, the show was amazing, but his voice is not the same. It's just— there's no way it can be.

Um, I know Steven Tyler, like, he's back.

Is he? Yeah. So he quit for a while because he was like, I can't sing, and then he healed up and now he's back again.

I don't know exactly what he did, but I, I played with him back in January and like, the boys—

really?

Boys back?

No shit, that's fucking great.

Singing his ass off.

That's fucking great. I love to hear that.

Mm-hmm.

I saw the Stones a couple years ago at Circuit of the Americas, and Mick Jagger can still wail. Yeah, he could still wail. That was a great fucking show, almost surreal.

He's got a lot of energy too, man.

So much energy.

It's crazy.

He has two trailer trucks that he brings with him that are just gym equipment. Wow. Everywhere they go, two big-ass trailer trucks just filled with gym equipment. They say works out 7 days a week.

That's awesome.

And he's 180,000 years old. He's still up there. Still. And Keith Richards, opposite approach— whiskey, cocaine, LSD, no problems. Still there too. So it's like, yeah, find something you love and stick with it.

I know, it's so funny. Like, it makes me think of like, we went out with Willie a few times, and Willie's got like Like most artists, he's got like 18 tractor-trailers back there. But like, I don't know if you've been to a Willie Nelson show recently. It's like there's nothing on stage. I'm like, what's in all these fucking trucks? I never really got to the bottom of that, but there's like 7 or 8 truck drivers.

That's all weed.

It must be all weed or something.

Go in, there's all grow lights. Yeah, he's got that drink that they sell.

Oh yeah.

He's got that weed drink, Willie's Remedy. Yeah, and Ron White brought some to the green room of the Comedy Mothership, and someone was saying, oh, you can't get it, that's not real. I'm like, it's real as fuck, dude. That stuff's very legit.

It's real.

Yeah, it's very— I don't know what the rules are, the laws are.

I don't know, almost starting to become like a gray area.

It should be. I mean, they just made it Schedule 3. Okay, so what that means is— and I mean, listen, it's a great step in the right direction. I'm very happy that the president did that. It really should be regulated the same way alcohol is. It should be for adult use, 21 and older. It shouldn't be— maybe I wonder what the issue— well, I'm sure there's a bunch of issues, right? There's like lobbies that are trying to keep it illegal. Like there's the alcohol lobby that doesn't want it legal because it cuts down on alcohol sales. And I know they lobby to try to make sure those laws stay in place. And then unfortunately, you have prison guard unions that lobby for it, which is fucked, right? They want to keep their job, and so the way they keep their job is to keep people locked up. And the way they keep people locked up is keep laws that don't make sense. Like, fucked up. That's a— that's an evil fucking— that it's— it just doesn't make any sense. If you can buy alcohol, you should be able— like, I'm not saying you should drink alcohol.

You don't drink alcohol anymore. More. Like I said, I took months off. It's like, you should have some self-control, and I know some people don't, but get your shit together. You should— but other people are fine with alcohol. They go to the bar, have a drink or two, go home, go out to dinner, have a drink, go at home, have a drink while they're watching TV, and they're fine. Yeah, it should be a personal choice. No adult should be able to tell you what you can and can't do and be able to lock you up in a fucking cage and if you don't listen. That's nuts. And in a free country— in this country is as free as it gets in this world— there's no way weed should be illegal. It should be regulated, and it should be only for people that are adults, where, you know, you have to be 21 to be able to buy it. Look, it's never stopped kids from getting alcohol. They still get alcohol. It's not stopping kids right now from getting weed. They can still get weed. But if it was legal and regulated, first of all, we'd get taxes from it, and that would be huge for every state.

You'd get a ton of tax money that you're not getting right now. And also you would keep people from getting locked up for their own personal choices, which is just insane.

Yeah.

I mean, not a lot of people get locked up for personal use these days. That's pretty rare. But there's still— there's just way too many laws.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting too, like, if you have like um, like CBD flower, like technically that's legal.

Yes.

So like if you just put some of your cannabis in a CBD container, like, are there ways to like test that on the side of the road? Like if you get pulled and they search your car?

Not on the side of the road, but they could confiscate it and then test it, I think. But there's weird things about like legalization of— I was watching a YouTube video about what Texas's laws were, and Texas's laws are the amount of THC by volume. So the thing about that is if you get like gummies, like a, a 10mg gummy will pass that by volume and be legal. So are you saying that people can take 10mg THC gummies and that's legal? Yeah, because they'll fuck you up. Like, if you don't smoke weed, a 10mg THC gummy will have you going, ooh, dude, take 2 of those and who knows what's gonna happen to you.

I just watched this movie that a friend of mine was in, this movie, Lainey Wilson, and we watched the movie, and I don't want to spoil the movie for anybody, but it turns out that The girl, like, she went to jail because she was impaired while driving, and she was impaired by weed gummies. And I was like, that's kind of gay.

Mm, well, depends on how much you took. Yeah, but if you take 200 milligrams to get behind the wheel, you're not even exactly sure what the road is.

200 milligrams is a lot. Yeah, right.

So that's pretty impaired. That's, that's equivalent to like 8 shots of whiskey and then getting in your truck. Yeah, right, you're impaired.

I guess you're right.

I don't think you should drive on weed. I definitely don't think you should drive fucked up. But it's like the same— like, I don't advocate drinking and driving either, but if you have like one drink and drive, like, you're gonna feel like a little relaxed and lubricated, but I don't know how much you'll be— and it also varies on who the person is. If the person is used to drinking all the time, one drink is not gonna do a damn thing to them. But for some people, one drink will make you drive stupid. You'll do stupid things. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's all a personal responsibility thing. That's the bottom line about all of it. And yeah, you shouldn't be out there drinking and driving. You shouldn't be out there eating 500mg edibles and fucking driving in a car. No, no.

I remember one time my drummer had this like THC spray. Have you ever fucked with that?

Oh yeah, we had that back in California. Yeah, like breath spray.

Yeah, and I was still drinking at the time, and me and my wife were both just hammered, and we were on this ferry. Like, the tour bus goes on to the ferry, and the ferry carries you over from France to the UK. And we were like sitting in the lounge area on the ferry— lounge area on the ferry, rather— and he had this spray, and I was like, it's not doing anything. Me and my wife both kept just spraying it. No, I woke up in my bed just like in a cartoon, just like completely removed from reality. Just— and yeah, it was a bad, bad scene.

I remember one time I took a— they had these THC breath strips that they used to sell, and the problem with these things— and this is back in the pre-legalization days of pre-2016— in California. And so each store you would get weed at, like, they would have medical stores. So you could go to a doctor and say, "Hey, doc, I got a headache." And they go, "You need medicine." And they would write your prescription, and then you can go. And, like, there's always reasons to have it, just like there's reasons to have Tylenol. Do you get a headache? Yeah. Well, then you need it. Do you have a backache? Yeah. Well, then you need it. So you could get it pretty easy. And they had these breath strips, and I took one when I got on a plane. And I closed my eyes when I was lying on the plane, and I was watching neon, like, cartoon characters that are made out of neon light, and they were having sex. It was an orgy of car— and I was just lying there with my eyes closed watching these cartoon neon characters fuck. And they were fucking in, like, complete blackness, like, void.

So it was just the colors of their weird bodies just banging each other, and then they would shift shapes and another one will pile on, and they were I was like, this is crazy. It was very psychedelic. It was almost like— but when I'd open my eyes, the world was normal. Yeah, it wasn't like I was— the world was wiggling and, and I was just sitting. I didn't have anything to do. I was flying all the way to New York. It was a 6-hour flight. By the time it landed, I'd sobered up. But I was like, this is crazy. Like, how much is in these fucking things? Because they're not making them in the same labs where they're making fucking Tylenol.

Sure.

You know, I mean, it's some hippie, some dude who's like pouring weed into a machine and can't remember whether or not he put weed in there because he's high as fuck, so he adds double. They're very inconsistent.

It's like the microdoses that I used to get in Macon, Georgia. I was like, some of these are stronger than other ones. He's like, yeah, depending on the day. My boy Hubble's like, uh, you know, he's gonna ride it for whatever it is.

Well, that's why we need legalization regulation. That's the beautiful thing about whiskey. You get a glass of whiskey, you get a shot, you know exactly what that shot's gonna do. Shots of whiskey have been having the same impact on human beings for hundreds of fucking years.

You can quantify it.

Yeah, and that's how it should be with all these things. But the problem is when they're outlawed, you know, some of them are, you know, a glass of wine, some of them are fucking moonshine. Like, you need regulation. And it's the idea that there's laws against people's personal choices, just fucking stupid, man. There's plenty of laws that are good. Don't murder people, don't rob, don't rape, don't do this, don't do that. That's great. Don't vandalize. Great, great laws. Makes sense. Better society. Laws on personal choices, especially things that you might enjoy, like having a joint with your wife, you know, after dinner and just sitting there and watching Netflix together. Like, the fucking armed thugs can burst into your house and take the joint away from you? Like, who are we protecting? Who we serving? Who we protecting and serving with that? That's dumb. Yeah, it's just bad for society, and it creates this business. Once a business is established, the business of enforcement, once that business is established, that business doesn't want to go away because now you have a bunch of people whose jobs depend on enforcing laws and forcing these things that don't make any sense, and they want to protect that because that's their livelihood.

So now you got a quagmire. Now you're in a fucking terrible situation. There's no easy way out other than ripping the Band-Aid off and making it legal. You're also propping up the cartels. That's the other problem with it being completely illegal in this country federally is like, well, guess what? It's— there's still a demand for it. So legal companies that actually employ people and give the employees health care and, you know, have rules and regulations, no, they're not making it, so they're not growing it. So instead you have fucking cartels that are growing it in California on public land because if you get caught, it's just a misdemeanor 'cause it's legal in California. So literally, I think it's more than 80% of all the weed that's sold in the United States that's illegal is grown in California on public lands by the cartel. And they use toxic pesticides and herbicides. They use all kinds of shit that you're not allowed to use in normal farming. And, you know, the only reason why it exists is because we've made these stupid fucking laws. So now that it's Schedule 3, it's in the same category as like Tylenol with codeine, which is not bad.

It's better, certainly better than Schedule 1, which is ridiculous. So now hopefully once they do more testing and more studies, they can get to a point where federally it's legal and regulated. That would be the best case for everybody, just in the same category as alcohol. Get all that tax money from it and then don't make criminals out of American citizens that just want to make personal choices. This episode is brought to you by OnX Offroad. Ever wonder how to reach these epic mountain lakes or tucked away dispersed campsites? With OnX Offroad, you'll find legal open trails around you and even better, guided trails mapped by real offroaders. Each one includes photos, terrain descriptions, and difficulty ratings so you'll know if your vehicle is capable before you go. Unlike other apps, OnX gives you turn-by-turn directions on the trail, and their new dispersed camping layer shows where you can legally set up camp. You also get private land boundaries, public land overlays, and the ability to download maps for offline use so that you're never guessing even when you're off the grid. It's a powerful tool built for serious off-roaders. Try OnX Off-Road for 50% off.

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When did it, uh, when did it get scheduled as, uh, Schedule 1?

Well, the whole Schedule 1 thing, this is, this is what I talked about when I went to the White House recently, which is a hilarious thing to say. For a retard like me. That I helped get things scheduled. I mean, when it all goes down in the history books, they attach my name to this, it's gonna be really confusing. They're gonna be like, fucking that guy? What? How? What the fuck happened? So when, in 1970, the Richard Nixon administration passed the Controlled Substances Act, and it made DMT, psilocybin, LSD, all these different things, it made them Schedule 1. So that they— the idea is that there was no benefit, including ibogaine, which is crazy, which means it has no medical benefit and harmful and addictive, all these different qualities that they attach to it. But the only reason they did that was to target the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. That's what they were doing. They didn't like the fact that these people were causing trouble and then they were organizing, you know, marches and doing all these different things that were disrupting the government. And there was also this movement where people like, why are we living the way we're living?

Like, this was the '60s. Like, why are we doing what we're doing? Like, well, I don't want to be like my parents. They're not happy. You know, I want to live a life that's like freer. I want to be filled with love and joy and I want to, you know, have a good time and follow the Grateful Dead around. Like, so A lot of people in government were very concerned with this new movement. And if you go and like music is a great example. Like if you look at the music of the 1950s and then you look at the music of the 1960s, like what the fuck happened? Yeah. Like if you look at the music of 2016 and the music of 2026, not much difference.

Right.

Right. It's all great. It's all, but it's like, it's not, there's not some revolutionary crazy new change. But you saw that from 1959 to 1969, there is a radical difference, a radical difference. 1950, you got like, you go from Buddy Holly to Jimi Hendrix, right? Like, okay, what the fuck happened? Something crazy must have happened. And it's drugs. It's psychedelic drugs.

It's like the stoned ape theory.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, our modern society.

Exactly.

See it.

Exactly. And this terrified the administration. And they were really worried that they were gonna completely lose control of the country. And so they passed this Controlled Substances Act. And that happened in 1970, and from that time on, we've been fucked. You know, for 56 fucking years, we've been under the grip of this stupid fucking law that was passed by the Nixon administration that didn't make any sense. Some of the drugs that they added to aren't even psychoactive. They just threw a bunch of stuff in there, and they missed a bunch of potent ones. Yeah, they missed 5-methoxy DMT. They missed 5-MeO-DMT, which is one of the most potent psychedelics, if not the most potent psychedelic. You used to be able to buy that online. Oh wow, dude, there was a company that you could order from, and they would send you a fucking jug of it as big as this. Now the amount that gets you blasted into the center of the universe and introduces you to God is like the size— it's like the size that goes on your pinky. Yeah, like your pinky nail, like that amount. You smoke that, you'll see God.

Wow.

And you could just buy a fucking jar of it online. There was a company called the American Chemical Company— American Chemical Company or American Chemical Corporation— and you used to be able to just buy 5-methoxy DMT, and they would just send it to you like a jar of vitamins.

Wow.

Buh! And then you could go to head shops and buy salvia.

Oh yeah.

So salvia is a fucking insanely potent psychedelic, which by the way is also sage. Like sage is the same family, the same genus as salvia. So like think about it, sage meaning wise, like like an old sage.

Yeah.

And meanwhile, that is one of the most potent psychedelics in the world. And so kids were going to head shops and buying salvia. I don't know if they've made that illegal now. They probably have, right? Is salvia illegal now?

I think, uh, I don't know.

So Ari Shaffir on Brian Redban's podcast. Do you know the story?

No.

Okay. Ari Shaffir went on Brian Redban's podcast and took a giant hit of salvia. And went under for like 10 minutes. And when he came back, he said that he had lived 6 months under the water with bre— like with a, a, a, a, a, a, entire different community of human beings under the water, had relationships, had a job, like had a 6-month experience and then came back in that 10 minutes. And he was so confused. He was so baffled. He's like, I had a life under there. I had a girlfriend. I had friends. He goes, I had all these experiences.

No shit.

Yeah.

Ari's crazy, man.

He's crazy. He's fun.

He came out to my show in New York. He's the man.

He is the man. But I mean, that's, that's how potent this fucking salvia stuff is. By the way, a lady had a very similar experience recently who went into a coma. So she was in a coma for an extended period of time. I wanna say it was like a few months, and when she came out, she had a whole life that she said she had triplets and she had like— she was married, all these different things. Here's the story: She asked for her triplets after waking up from a coma. Doctors say they never existed. When she woke from a coma, first thing she did was ask for her three daughters. Medical staff was stunned. The response shattered her entire world. Just like that, the children she had nursed, watched grow, and deeply cared for over 7 years were gone. So she was placed in a medically induced coma for 3 weeks, and what followed was a dream of a lifetime, quite literally. She was obviously not aware that she was in a coma. Instead, she slipped into a dream and a lifetime unfolded before her eyes. Talking to the outlet, the teen recalled having extremely intense dreams and nightmares.

She was not aware that she was in a coma at the time. So those dreams became her reality. So she became a mother. She said it felt so real. She felt the physical and emotional pain throughout the hallucination. I could feel so many things when I dreamed about giving birth. I felt the stress. I also felt a lot of pain in this dream. I gave birth to triplets who I named Mila, Miles, and, uh, Miley. Miley died shortly after birth. I felt so awful, overwhelmed with sadness and guilt, she recalled. She remembers the first skin-to-skin contact that she had with her babies. It was incredible. I felt an overwhelming wave of love, she added. In her dream, she lived for 7 years and watched her daughters grow up. Each had their own personalities. One was quite shy, the other was a bundle of energy. I remember walks, meals we shared, and bedtime stories. She loved them with all her heart. And then she woke up from the coma and was told that her children never existed. That's when they told me they didn't exist. I was in shock. I was so convinced that it was real that the time I saw my parents again, I told them they were grandparents.

Whoa. It makes you, like, wonder, like, what is reality? What is this thing that we're currently experiencing? Yeah, and we're currently experiencing this thing, but what, what is this? Is this everything? Is this the whole thing, or is this like one channel? On an infinite radio, and just while we're on that channel, we think this is the radio, right? But maybe there's— maybe when you go to sleep, maybe that's just as real as being awake. It's a heavy thought, but the idea that you just shut off every night is bananas. Yeah, we look forward to it. Oh, can't wait to just go away.

Go away.

Can't wait to not exist. And if you don't, like If I don't get enough sleep, I'm like, whatever, whatever happens during the dream time, the sleep time, the recovery, I feel it. I've— my waking life, like, I haven't done what I'm supposed to do by sleeping for an extended period of time. So my— this reality is compromised. This reality, I'm dumber, my memory sucks, I'm more tired, I don't have any energy, I can't wait to go to sleep. Can't wait to shut off so I could pay back the void. Pay back the void, the time I owe into the dreamland of bizarre dreams.

Yeah, just the symbolism of dreams too. I've been having a lot of crazy dreams lately.

Like what?

I dream about snakes a lot, which is a good— snakes— a good sign.

Is it?

Yeah, dreaming about snakes evidently just represents like shedding your skin. Going into something new, you know, growing.

Or you're surrounded by people who want to get you.

Or maybe that. Yeah, which both can be true. You know the music business. Yeah, there's a lot of snakes.

Isn't it every business though?

Yeah, I mean, just the idea, like the business side is just so in contrast to like the artistic sensibility. You know, an artist is supposed to be— not supposed to be, but just like psychological, our makeup is more just like open and just more just like giving and wanting to share your craft with somebody and more emotional, you know.

Yeah.

And then having to be like a shark and having to think like these snakes.

Contracts. Yeah.

Sign the dotted line, Marcus.

You're gonna make so much money, Marcus.

It's only 7 years. It's just 7 years.

With an extension. With options.

With options. How's about that?

You'll be free. Don't worry about these song rights.

Yeah.

You'll have other songs in the future.

Right.

That will be even better.

Okay.

Bet on yourself, Marcus. Take the money. Don't you want a big house? Don't you want a fancy car? You need a Rolex.

Have you ever seen Late Night with the Devil?

Yes. Yeah, that's the talk show.

Yeah.

Yeah, that is great, man. Who made that?

That's a good question.

That's a really good movie.

We watched it on the bus one night.

I was like, Whoa, that was like 2019 or something.

It was heavy.

Yeah, this was 2024. Oh, it's an Australian movie. Jack Delroy, the host of a failing— it's in 1977. Jack Delroy, the host of a failing late-night show, decides to film a Halloween special. However, the broadcast takes a dark turn, unleashing evil into the nation's living rooms. Yeah, it's a dope movie. It's really fun. It's fucking scary shit too.

It was scary.

Yeah, it was good, bro. You know what's fucking scary as shit and really good that I just found out about from my daughter? There's a new show called— well, it's not even new, it's like 4 seasons. It's called From.

From?

Yeah, it's on Apple TV. I don't know if it's an Apple show, but it's on Apple TV. It's with the dude from Lost, one of the dads from Lost, Harold Perrineau.

Lost also from—

he's been in a lot of things. Yeah, he's great. And the show is fucking terrifying. It is. It's very original and very weird. Um, so it came out in 2022. Interesting.

Season premiere on Epix.

Oh, okay. What's it on now? Is it just on Apple TV?

Release— FX, MGM Plus.

Yeah, so it says in 2018 YouTube Red. Remember we were talking about YouTube Red?

Canada, it's on Paramount Plus. India, it's on Amazon Prime.

I was on all over the place.

Huh, where MGM Plus is.

So it appeared on Epix. I don't even know what MGM Plus is. Maybe that's just the company, that's the production company. So in 2026, they renewed the series for a 5th and final season. It's fucking good, man. It's good and it's really scary. It's really scary and fucking creepy and horrific. It's about these people that are stuck in this town that doesn't make any sense. Like, the town doesn't make any sense, and you can't get out of the town. And at nighttime, people come out of the woods, but they're not people, and they're like these monsters. And if you let them into your house— you can't let them into your house, but if you let them in your house, they butcher you and tear you apart. And people, they try to trick you into letting you— letting them into your house. Like, I'm not doing it justice. It's like, it sounds stupid, but here's the pitch. But it's, it's really scary, man. It's really scary and really creepy to the point like I'm watching, I get anxiety and I don't like watching shit like that before I go to bed. Yeah, because then I get like weird dreams and I start getting— because it's like children are in trouble in it and I'm a father and when I see children in trouble I get— I fucking freak out.

You know, there's part of you like the sheepdog and you know, just like, right? So it's, it's a good show though.

My wife gets on to me. I like— it's like Forensic Files. Oh, puts me out.

I love it. You like that before you go to bed?

I don't know why.

That's crazy.

That's my comfort.

How people murdered people? Yeah, I remember that show on HBO, The Autopsy Show. That was like one of the first ones.

Okay, do you know that show, The Autopsy One?

It was this guy, Dr. Michael Baden. And what he was was a forensic scientist that would catch people that had murdered people and got away with it. They would exhume bodies and find things, and it was all these different cases of where someone had gotten away with murder, but then they discovered how they did it. It was very, very interesting. Wow. Because people are fucking weird, man. Like, you know, a lot of like wives poisoning their husbands, like multiple husbands died of similar ways and Yep. Nurses that poison the people under their care.

There's some fucked up people out there.

There's some fucked up people out there, man. And the crazy thing is they get away with it. That's the crazy thing, is for every one that Michael Badden catches, how many of them get away with it?

Yep.

Like, what percentages of murders in America go unsolved? Let's put this into perplexity. Our AI sponsor and find out what the deal— what do you think it is? What percentage of murders go unsolved in America?

Oh, that's a good question.

I mean, yes, 50, 60%. Whoa.

But I don't, I don't know how you would quantify it. I guess you'd find out, well, someone gets murdered and they don't catch anybody. Oh, right, right. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, it's half. Wow.

So you're saying there's a chance?

So you're saying there's a chance?

Approximately 40 to 50% of murders in the United States go unsolved. Means that roughly half of all homicide cases do not result in arrest or resolution. So, uh, I was talking to somebody and someone who lives in their community got arrested because the wife went missing and they got the wife's DNA from this guy's chainsaw. They have no body, they have no evidence other than there's some DNA on his chainsaw. And you know, he's playing stupid, so he's in jail now. But everybody that knows him and like, like these, these friends of mine, they know the family. They knew him, they knew her. Shit, and he's just in jail and they don't know if they have enough evidence to convict him. And so he's been in jail for a while now and they're trying to gather enough evidence for trial, but all they have is like DNA. I don't even know what that means, like how much DNA, like did he clean the chainsaw and not do a good job? I don't know what that means, but they got—

she like out like trimming hedges.

Who knows? That's the thing. It's like you could use a chainsaw and accidentally scratch yourself, like you don't have to cut yourself, it doesn't even have to be on. Like if you're move— if you're, you know, taking a chain— I don't know why the wife would be taking a chainsaw out into the— I mean, some women are capable and they do it, but my wife, you know, accidentally scraped your arm with this chainsaw and they went over every blade with a swab, they probably could find your DNA and go, oh my God, you did it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what happened, but apparently these people that I know believe that the husband chopped this lady up.

Oh really?

Yeah, they think he did it. They're fighting a lot.

And I remember when I was a kid, my sister used to— and like, Shane's actually got a really funny bit about how diabolical older sisters are. And just my sister used to say I hope you go to jail for something you didn't do.

Whoa.

I hope you get wrongfully convicted for something and you're in jail forever. Jesus Christ. That's a terrible thing to say to somebody.

What did you do to her to make her say that to you?

Who fucking knows?

That's so dark. I hope you go to jail for something you didn't do is so evil.

Wow. We're very close now.

Are you?

Oh yeah.

Well, she was a kid.

She was— we were kids.

How old was she when she did that?

When she said that? She's 2 years older than me, so she must have been like 9 or 10. Oh, but people say things, kid stuff, at 9 or 10.

They're just being kids.

Yep.

That's a diabolical mind though. Like, that's how you want someone to suffer? You want someone to emotionally suffer for something they didn't do forever?

Her and a neighbor boy— it was a vacant house across from mine, and they like locked me in the back fence, and my sister was like, this is where you live now. Well, they were like, unless you break that window. And I was like, I don't want to break the window. And like, sure enough, like they said, well, we're not letting you out of this gate. And I probably could have waited it out, but I was like 5 or 6, so I just said, all right. So I took a brick to the window and they're like, well, we're gonna go tell on you now. Wow, really fucked up.

What the fuck does she do now?

My sister's actually— she's a badass, man. She's— she drives for the Department of Transportation. She's got her CDL. She's awesome.

Sounds like she has some devious thoughts in her mind.

She's—

yeah, sounds like she should write books.

I know, she's so smart.

That sounds very creative. Yeah, you know, like she's manipulating a 5-year-old into breaking a window so she could tell on him.

But as a 7-year-old— yeah, no, she's, she's awesome. But actually, I had a good friend I told that story to, and she loved it so much she got me a a welcome mat from my house that said, "This is where you live now." That's fucked up, man.

Where did she learn that kind of behavior?

Probably my mom.

Oh, was your mom like that?

My mom was pretty wild, yeah.

Yeah? Mm-hmm.

Oy.

Yep. I had an interesting upbringing.

Most artists do. Especially most interesting artists. I don't know a lot of interesting artists that say, "My childhood was perfect. It was amazing. There was so much love and everybody was really supportive and understanding.

We talked a lot about stuff." Spoke about our feelings mostly around the dinner table.

There's always some sort of element of psychological torture involved. Or some kind of abandonment or some kind of Sometimes, yeah, uncle, whatever it is. Yep, something ignoring you. Yeah, and just not making you a priority, making you not feel special, or making you feel like you're a burden. There's something, something that causes you to like want exorbitant amounts of attention from strangers.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah. But look, that's where the great stuff comes from, which is really wild, like there's this concept that you cannot have good without evil. And I think there's something to that. I think it's just part of the human condition. For whatever reason, you don't appreciate good unless you experience bad, which is why rich kids are fucked. You grow up rich with everything you've ever wanted. There's no struggle. It's so difficult for those people to ever be exceptional. Because they don't have the motivation. They don't have that. They haven't experienced the bad, not in that way. Like, I remember I went on a hunting trip with my friend Steve Rinella and Brian Callen. We went to Alaska and it rained every day. It rained for like 6 days. We were soaking wet. And we came back to LA and it was sunny, and I was driving my car and I had to call my friend Steve and I said, dude, I have never been happier. The sun hits my face. I'm so appreciative. I'm so— and I've never felt like this. Like, it's always like this in LA.

Yeah.

But it never meant anything to me. It was just, yep, another day in LA. Gotta go to work. But this one day I was like just filled with gratitude and I was so happy. The sun on my face felt so good and warm and, and I realized like, oh, you have to suffer. In order to really appreciate the good. Like, if it's just all good, you're not gonna appreciate it. You don't— you need evil people so that you really appreciate the people that are beautiful and that you love, right? You need people that suck so you appreciate people that are kind. Yeah, you know, you need people that are mean so you appreciate the ones that are nice.

Yeah, just people that are on the level. Just people that are like no agenda, just kind people. And it is that duality that kind of gives you perspective. That's what I meditate on every day is perspective.

That's why I wonder about the music business and then even the comedy business. I think kind of any business. I'm sure it's the same with the music— rather, moviemaking business as well. It's like you almost need these rotten vampire cunts that are— you know what I mean? It's like, so you punk band, but so that like when you see fellow musicians that you love, like you give them a hug, like you embrace each other, like, oh, we're cool. Like, you know what I mean? It's like we're together now. It's all right. We're okay.

It's trauma bonding.

Yeah, we're away from the cunts. Yeah, we're away from the vampire cunts.

It's like my boy Charlie Crockett, you know, Charlie always says like, you can do what they do, but they can't do what you do.

Mmm, Charlie's great.

He's a fucking—

he's an interesting dude too. Very interesting dude. Very interesting life, like the life that that guy had and playing street music for so long and finally getting discovered. Mm-hmm. Very— like, again, but that's how you get a person like that. When you talked about his childhood, how fucked up it was and crazy he was, basically just on his own from the time he was a teenager, just running around, just singing songs.

Yep.

You know, like, that's how you get a person like that.

Yeah, you can't create a Charlie Crockett in a lab.

No, or a Jelly Roll. You don't, you don't create those in a lab. They got to go to jail first. But it's like I mean, Jelly's like one of the most beautiful people I've ever met in my life. He's one of the nicest, sweetest, kindest, warm, affectionate people. Everybody hugs everybody, tells everybody he loves them, and he means it. And because he's been through hell, you know, and that's, that's how you make a person like that.

Jelly's in like a constant state of like, like when you run into somebody after they've had an ayahuasca experience.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

He has this constant, like, gratitude.

Yes.

That I feel like kind of fades even with people who have, like, ayahuasca journeys or experiences.

Yeah.

You know, he's just— I don't know, there's something really pure to that.

Yeah, he's maintained it, especially now that he's on this, like, health journey. I think that sometimes the momentum of life takes over and you kind of forget those beautiful moments. You're grounded in these moments where you realize, like, God, I'm so lucky to have a beautiful family that I love and friends that I love and be able to do what I do for a living. God, I'm so lucky. And that feeling, like, sometimes it goes away because you're dealing with this and that and contracts and fucking— then the New York Times wrote a hit piece on you. Oh shit. And you forget, you lose your perspective. But I almost feel like you need all those other shitty elements to just reinforce the good elements, that there's this constant sort of mechanism that's going on where there's this constant process of pros and cons, of negatives and positives, and they're duking it out to see who rises. And the more the negative comes at you, the more it has this creative desire inside of you to excel with your music or your art or whatever it is that you do, to just push past it. I mean, think about some of the great songs that people have written just about the struggles that they've gone through, just even in the music business, you know.

Yeah, like Leonard Skinner, Working for MCA. You know, there's a lot of those songs like that, or it's just like people just want to tell you what the fuck they've been through.

Yeah, La Chic, Freak Out?

What's that about?

They weren't like— they weren't allowed to get into Studio 54. They wouldn't let them in. And the song was originally written as Fuck You, you know, da-da-da-da-duh duh duh fuck you!

Oh really? Yeah, instead it's Freak Out.

Yeah, and then I ended up being a major hit.

That was because they couldn't get into a club? Yeah, that's pretty crazy.

Pretty crazy.

Yeah, yep.

But it is just about threading that needle of like wanting more for yourself but for the right reasons. And that's something that I think about every day. It's just like having a virtuous reason to want more, you know, not just for the sake of having it or for hoarding wealth or anything like that. It's like, I want to work to where I can get to a place where where, you know, my wife and I can have our own bus and raise kids on the road, you know. But you can't do that unless you have a certain profit margin on the road, you know. So I'm always kind of trying to think of, like, virtuous causes to want more, you know. Because in reality, you know, I should be grateful for everything that I do have. But also speaking of that, you know, and trying to meditate on the things that I'm grateful for every day.

That's a good perspective. I think people get trapped in working towards a result instead of thinking about the process, right? I try to be process-oriented. I try to like think about whatever I'm doing, just try to be better at it and do a better job at it. And I think the other stuff sort of takes care of itself if you have the right people. And that's where the evil cunt vampires come in. Because they'll steal all that goodwill. Like, if you leave the door open, like on that TV show, on From, you let them in.

Yep.

They'll fucking tear you apart.

I'll tell you.

Yeah.

Just— and it's hard because you don't want to become jaded, right? You don't want to become like— I feel like I meet a lot of people out there who, like, they're open and they're kind, but they're not interested in making any new friends. You know, right? It's like they have their circle, and on one hand, I kind of understand that. I get that, you know, but it's hard, you know. You got to maintain a certain level of perspective not to become like angry.

And yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard. And it's hard to know who you can let into your circle too. Like, you got to give people a stress test, you know what I mean? Yep, it's almost like you have to give them a baggie and then have a fake cop grab them and say, where'd you get it? Marcus King gave it to me. Oh, gotcha, bitch.

I ran into this guy recently, and basically what happened was like, I was on Jam Cruise years ago, and I was super fucked up, and I was supposed to sit in with this band called Naughty Professor from New Orleans. And they're like, that's a great name. They're so good, and they're just outrageously talented musicians. And I had gone out on an adventure that morning on a catamaran. I didn't know what the fuck a catamaran was. I didn't know if it was land, air, or sea vessel, right? So we go out there, turns out it's a boat, and we go like snorkeling in the Cayman Islands, and we're just like looking at all the fish, and like my girlfriend at the time and a bass player friend of mine from a band called Lettuce, his name's Jesus. So out there with my girlfriend at the time, his name is Jesus?

Yeah, not Jesus.

Well, his name's Eric, but he goes by Jesus.

Oh boy, Eric. Oh boy, how did Eric get in your circle?

I don't think it's a messiah complex or anything. I think it's just a nickname that stuck. But they were tripping on acid, and I was drunk on rum and beer and just out there waiting. And like, when we came up for air, the boat had— or we had drifted quite a ways from the boat. And like, we couldn't get their attention. And like, the waves started crashing and like a storm started rolling in.

Oh, fuck.

Waves. And like, you know, I'm not the strongest swimmer, you know, but we were, we were basically, you know, we were treading water out there for like 40 minutes.

Holy shit, dude.

Yeah, we were, we were gonna drown. And finally the dude jumped off the boat and came out there, and then he was like yelling at me because I didn't have flippers on. I was just out there with just my shorts on and some goggles. And he signaled for the boat to come around, and they pulled us up out of the water. So after that, we were celebrating our life, you know. So I got completely hammered. And then I was on the boat and I was like, well, I need a pick-me-up, you know, because I got to sit in with these guys and they're like college-educated, like, jazz musicians. So this guy comes over, he's like, hey man, you need a jatouski? I was like, yeah, hook me up. And he pulled out a spoon and he digs it down in the bag and I go to take it and it's like a small little mountain. I was like, give me a little more. And he gave me some more. Big snort, my whole face went numb. I was like— and it stung. I was like, whoa, what the fuck was that? And he was like, ah, dude, just a little blow.

I was like, no, it wasn't. And like, he said, yeah, it was. And I grabbed him by the shirt and I said, what the fuck did you give me, motherfucker? And he looked at his buddy like, well, I had him, you know, like this. And he said, hey, what bag did you give me, bro? And he was like, The blue one. He's like, "Oh no." He looked at me and I was like, "What was it?" He's like, "It's ketamine." Oh! So I went totally the wrong direction. But I ran into that guy at the Grand Ole Opry. He came into my dressing room and was like, "Hey, remember me? Wrong bag?" I was like, "Yeah, I remember you." Yeah, I don't like you. Yeah, you kinda— Put me in a weird spot.

What was that like, taking ketamine after you almost died?

Man, it was heavy, you know. I basically, like, from what I recall, like, I became part of the boat. That's how I remember it. Like, my feet were like in the deck, you know, and like I was moving the whole boat with every step that I took. That's what I remember.

Whoa.

Yeah. But there was this one guy that kept trying to get me to come play a festival in like New Mexico, and I kind of put him off the whole week, and then he ran into me and like I just remember his eyes getting big like saucers. I don't know what I said to him, but it was some crazy shit. It wasn't English at all, probably ketamine talk.

Ketamine's a weird one, man. Yeah. 'Cause there's a lot of people that are doing that right now for therapy.

Yeah.

Like Neal Brennan, a comedian, the co-creator of The Chappelle Show, he was the first person to tell me about it, 'cause Neal's had depression problems most of his life. And we were in LA, and he said— we were in the hallway of The Comedy Store, he goes, "I've been doing ketamine therapy for depression." And I go, "How's that working out? Is it good?" He goes, "Yeah." Yeah, yeah, but I didn't know what to expect. He goes, I thought, oh, you know, it's in a doctor's office. It's probably gonna be just— I'm probably just gonna close my eyes and I'll feel— he goes, no. He goes, it's fucking a full-blown trip. He goes, tripping balls in a doctor's office is fucking strange.

I bet.

He said it worked though for a little while. Like, he's done a bunch of different things. He did a ton of ayahuasca. He's done a bunch of ketamine. He did like magnets on his brain. I think he did like a bunch of different things to try to like rewire the way his brain works. Yeah, like whatever it is.

That's a, that's a journey I'm on, you know. I'm on antidepressants and I want to get off them.

Which ones you on?

I'm on Cymbalta.

What does that one do? Well, is it an SSRI?

Yeah, so it basically just kind of a It's for a chemical imbalance, you know. But like, the best work that I did to combat my depression and anxiety and stuff was microdosing, you know, mushrooms. Yeah, like, that's, that's the most progress that I'd seen in my life. And, um, I'm gonna figure out some kind of strategy because, you know, like, being on antidepressants and them telling you like 'Well, don't just stop taking them all at once, or, you know, you could have seizures and shit.' I'm like, 'I don't like that. I don't want to be, like, you know, enslaved by a drug, by a pharmaceutical drug,' you know?

Yeah.

And it's like, also, like, now you just take this the rest of your life. It's like, what's the end result here?

Yeah, Theo Vaughn's going through the exact same thing. And last time he was on the podcast, he was explaining it to me. It freaks me out because I know Theo has had conversations before, like, even publicly. He had a Netflix taping, and it didn't go well. It was like they actually never— they shelved it. They never used it. You know, there was all these stories from people that were there saying he bombed. I think he just had kind of a breakdown. And then he was talking to the crowd, and there's a video of it where he said, you know, the people were shaking, "Hey, we still love you." He goes, "Thank you. Look, I'm just— I'm trying not to take my own life." That's what I'm trying to do right now. Yeah, and like, you hear stuff like that and you just go like, oh Jesus Christ. I've known too many people that I didn't think were gonna kill themselves and then did. And then he goes down these spirals where he starts talking about world events and freaking out. I'm like, oh Jesus Christ, like, I gotta help this dude. And so I send him things about people getting off of them, and apparently there's some doctors that specialize in getting people off of them, but Here's the thing about that chemical imbalance thing.

That's not real. They used to think that that was what these things do, that they treated a chemical imbalance. But then recently, studies have shown that that is not what they do. They don't exactly know what they do. And they kind of numb you in some sort of a way that helps some people. And I've had some friends, and I don't, you know, I don't want to make any blanket statements because I had some friends that were suicidal. Ari's one of them, and he got on SSRIs and it helped him. He got on— he tried a bunch of different ones, found one that worked, got on track, and then his career started taking off. And then as his career started taking off, he started feeling much better. He was on a good positive path in his life, and then he slowly weaned himself off of those, and now he's off of them. So I think that might have saved his life. I also know other people that have been on there, on those things, and taken their own lives. So I don't know, because that's part of one of the side effects, is suicidal ideation.

It's one of the side effects. But see if you could find anything about the chemical imbalance not being true, the chemical imbalance reason for taking SSRIs. It's— they've measured like levels of dopamine and serotonin and people that take— it's not— that's not what it's doing. And they don't even exactly know why it works. And it's a huge business. That's part of the problem. And it's also part of the problem these doctors are incentivized to prescribe people these things. I had a friend that went to a psychiatrist and was talking about their life and things not doing well, and immediately Immediately the doctor tried to prescribe him SSRIs right away, like right away. Here's something that you're never going to get off. I'm going to give it to you right away. First meeting. And he was like, well, I don't mean, shouldn't I like try exercise? Shouldn't I try diet? Shouldn't I try just drinking water? And, you know, like I read something about like magnesium and red light therapy being far more effective than even SSRIs. There is no good evidence for the simple chemical imbalance like low serotonin that directly causes depression or automatically means someone should take an SSRI, but SSRIs do change brain chemistry in ways that can help some people.

Um, but so for decades, depression was popularly explained as a serotonin imbalance in the brain. Large reviews of the research have not found convincing evidence that people with depression have consistently low serotonin, or a specific measurable imbalance that explains their symptoms. Experts now describe the chemical imbalance story as an oversimplified or outdated way of explaining a much more complex condition. And here's the other thing about depression: it has to be connected to the state of your life. Like, if you have a terrible job, you're in a bad relationship, you have abusive parents, you know, and you live in a shitty neighborhood. Who— why, why would you be happy?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, I'm depressed. Oh, you need a pill. No, do you? Is that what you need?

Right.

Well, it's quite possible that you're eating processed foods and you have all these other things that we talked about— shitty life, shitty house, shitty job, shitty neighborhood, shitty parents. Maybe you just need to make your life positive.

Mm-hmm.

Like, figure out a way to get your life in a positive direction. They've shown that exercise is way more effective than antidepressants at actually helping people with depression. Just exercise. Just fucking go on a nice long walk every day. Do some cardio, you know, take a fucking yoga class. That's way better for people than these goddamn pills. But these doctors are financially incentivized to prescribe these things, and they prescribe them and hand them out like candy. And again, I think for some people it helps them.

And that's the issue, right? I mean, if it wasn't a financial incentive, I think it would be like, take these for 6 months, you'll be better.

You know? Yeah.

It wouldn't be like—

Forever.

This is you now.

Even 6 months, it's like, okay, how long does it take to get off them?

Right.

Because I know a guy who was on them and it took him a year and a half after he got off of them before he felt normal again. For a year and a half, he was fucked up because he was on them for— I think he said he was on them for 10 years, and then for a year and a half he got off of them. And it just took that long before he finally, like, balanced the ship out, like, whatever waves he had to go through for a year and a half. But he was like, whatever I'm doing, I'm not going back on those goddamn pills. So he rode it out and came out on the other end.

It's fucked up too because it's hard to compare your experience to other people because everybody's brain chemistry is different.

Yeah.

So you could have two people on the same medication like you were, you know, saying earlier, like, um, it's hard to even quantify. Like, I even talked to my own sister or like other family members about, you know, their depression and their, you know, mental health, uh, journeys. And it's just— it's interesting to think, like, you could say, like, it's hard to disprove it, you know what I mean? Because somebody could be doing well on it. But it's also like it takes 2 weeks for it to really get into your system. And I had to try like 3 or 4 different ones before one really, I felt, felt like me, you know? Like, even at my grandmother's funeral, like, I just felt nothing. I just felt numb. And like, I didn't notice it until I got into a situation where I was like, this woman raised me and I can't feel anything.

Wow.

It wasn't until like a heavy moment like that that I was able to kind of have that perspective of like, I should be feeling something right now. So I put those down, and then it's like 2 weeks later I was having dinner with somebody and like this song came on that just brought all of it up. There was this melody, this Wayne Shorter melody that just uncorked everything and I was just sobbing at the dinner table, you know.

Wow. Um, what did you feel like before you took them and what was wrong with the ones that you didn't stick with?

Well, I don't know if it was a matter of like maybe the dosage was too high and it was just kind of creating a block. It's like you got to feel some emotions, right?

So how did you feel before you were taking them? Like, what was, what was bothering you that you realized you needed to take something?

Well, I think a lot of it had to do with just like substance abuse, but I was feeling really anxious and really suicidal and just really, really depressed, you know, and just this overwhelming sense of dread every day. And just also just a lot of helplessness, like just trying to go into different doctors and just like trying to figure out like, what the fuck is it that's gonna finally, you know, take this away? But also realizing like I rely on that a little bit, you know, for what I do for a living, you know. So there's kind of that, you know, rely on the feelings like the depression. Yeah, all that, you know, for writing and for creating.

Um, God, that's a fucking conundrum, ain't it?

Yeah, being fearful that it's going to take your drive away because you don't have anything to create for, no substance. Right? So it's a— it is a strange battle. It's one that I still kind of deal with, but I'm just in a much better spot on the journey.

So which ones did you try, and what was wrong with the ones that you tried? They just numbed you up?

This was like 6 years ago, so like 2020. I can't remember the name of the specific medication. I'm sure I have an old bottle of it somewhere in my house, but yeah, I don't know. I just—

what did it do? It just made you too numb?

Just made me feel numb.

And then when you found one that worked, what did that do differently?

So the one that I'm on now, I mean, like, if I go a day without it, like, I like withdrawal symptoms are like fairly severe, just like headaches and just like complete like body tingling sensations and just like it's really scary stuff. It's just, you know, so I'm gonna have to wean off of it slowly over time like I already did.

Yeah, I wonder if ibogaine would help with that.

Well, I mean, you know, it's like I was saying, like microdosing mushrooms was like the first thing that I actually felt some kind of lasting result. Like now, like when I get an anxiety attack or something, I can recognize it as something just coming from an outside force, you know, an energy that's not aligning with me.

Mm-hmm.

And I can recognize it, I can work through it, where like before I would just get a little overwhelmed, you know. But I think also just like not drinking and like having to socialize with people and having to have a little exposure therapy to like social interactions and life in general without just masking myself with drugs and alcohol, mm, has helped a lot too in that growth.

So when you first started taking it, you— there's all the stuff that you're doing in terms of like abusing alcohol and substances and that, which definitely causes you to feel like shit, and it definitely causes a lot of people to have like all sorts of angst and anxiety and just fucks with you. This stuff alleviated that?

What I'm on now?

Yeah.

Uh, I mean, you know, it has kind of, and I'm afraid of like, you know, if I get off of it, are those emotions gonna come flooding back in, you know?

So did it stop those emotions?

It—

this is all, by the way, while you were drinking, right? You're not drinking. And how long has it been since you've drank?

Like a year and a half.

Okay.

But I mean, those, those emotions do come back every now and again, even while you're on this stuff.

Yeah, but it significantly curbed them.

Mm-hmm. But it's like, you know, at what price? I mean, I was talking to my boy Ernest about it because You know, he's kind of a kindred spirit. And like, you know, just talking about like, I'll be working out and like getting after it, feeling good, listening to the Stones or whatever. And like, I noticed like in my gym at my house, like, I guess they used to have a punching bag hanging up there. And just like, you see something like that and you just take a mental note of like, that could probably hold my weight. You know, it's just like these—

Oh, you mean to hang yourself?

Yeah, like these thoughts just kind of come, you know, and it's— I don't know where they come from. They just pop in, and as quick as they come, they go.

And this is before you taking the medication?

No, I mean, this is like a month ago, you know?

Okay, did you have those thoughts before the medication?

Oh yeah.

Okay, so they're still there. Yeah, so whatever it's doing, it's doing a little bit. It's—

I mean, it's got to be helping to a degree.

Do you think it is?

I think so, but I think it's, it's really just about like your will and like your mental— just your ability. Just like we were talking about like with diets and stuff, you know, like does Ozempic help curb, you know, appetites? But you could also just exercise and just have willpower. And I think mental health can be of a similar thing.

One of the things that people are finding about Ozempic is it actually curbs your desire to be in love too.

Ugh.

Yeah.

That's a nasty thought.

Yeah. You don't enjoy anything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What I'm hearing about these SSRIs is like, uh, like genitalia, like paralyzed.

I saw that.

Yeah.

I saw that on Twitter. Some lady was talking about her. She got off of it and her clitoris is numb. She can't have orgasms anymore.

That's fucked up. Yeah, if that ever happens, just like, you know—

Well, the problem is I don't know if it comes back. Yeah, so you can't wait for it to happen and like which medications cause it to happen.

Yeah.

Um, if you do get off of it, have you talked to your doctor? Like, what is the protocol?

Um, well, weaning off of it. Yeah, my doctor always just says like, I don't know, he just— every time I talk to my doctor, it's like every few months we check in and he's like, well, yeah, how you feeling? You know, how you doing? Uh, I'm like, well, I'm okay. You know, just kind of feels like the same. Um, kind of want to get off of them. And he's like, well, you know, if you want to do that, like, you're gonna have to go Slowly over time, but, uh, you know, are things good? And I'm like, yeah, things are fine. He's like, well, you don't really want to change things if they're good, right? You know, that kind of thing.

And you worry what—

yeah, I worry about what's going to happen if I—

yeah, what's that going to be like getting off of them? Because the thing about it is, like I was talking about this guy that was on it for 10 years, like that year and a half was rough where he was experiencing all sorts of problems because his body was just kind of in shock. They did be on— he'd been on SSRIs for a decade, and then all of a sudden he's off of them. It's like, like the way Theo described it is like the floor was missing, like the floor fell out from under him getting off them. He got off them for a while and then got back on them. He got off them about a year ago for a little a while and then got back on them. But he wants to get off them, he just doesn't know what to do.

And I mean, hell, it's like, it's, it's like a— it's literally a plot device, you know, like the show The Ozarks, you know, mm-hmm, like the crazy brother, mm-hmm, he's pouring his medication down the drain. Yeah, and he goes fucking nuts, you know. It's like somebody being off their medication is kind of a pejorative term. Right?

Yeah.

But I'm like, yeah, I kind of want to get off mine.

Well, it depends on what medication, right? I guess schizophrenic. Yeah, if it's antipsychosis, I guess, if you've got psychosis. Have— do you exercise?

Yeah.

What do you do?

I usually do 20 minutes on the Peloton and then a different muscle group every day.

Oh, that's good. That anything cardio-wise is great for depression, supposedly. And even weights. Weights are supposedly really good for anxiety for some reason.

I've noticed.

Yeah.

There's a real definitive difference when I'm working out versus when I'm not.

Yeah. Man. So, like, do you have a strategy for when you're thinking about doing this or how you're gonna try to do this?

Well, I was thinking I'd probably do it when I had some time off, but— I'm working the rest of the year, but honestly, man, being on the road is kind of my, my constant. So I think it's something that I could probably accomplish while I'm on the road, but I'd hate to have like a breakdown.

Yeah, fuck that. Like you're in Nashville about to do a show. Yeah, I got to cancel the show, right? Yeah. So it's, it's hard to determine, you know, it scares me, man, because And again, it scares me because doctors incentivize to keep you on them and promote them and get you to do them. Also, and they've been prescribing them for people, they don't want to ever think that they're doing something bad.

There's a justification process in there somewhere.

100%. Justification process, financial incentives, there's a lot going on there. And then there's also this position that they're in of expertise where they're explaining to you what you should and shouldn't do and how it works. And when you're like, this is fucking up my whole life and I can't get off them, like, oh, it's just— why, why slow down? Like, isn't everything doing well? Just keep, keep on the same path, Marcus. Everything's fine, Marcus. Bye. Click. Got a new patient calling. Oh, hi, Jenner. Do you— yeah, it's, it's very weird, man. It's very weird that our society is so hypermedicated.

Yeah, yeah. And injectables are the, the wave of the future. Mm-hmm. Even like, like my boy Chevy that works for me, he's, um, he used to work in pharmaceutical sales and he's like, everything is injectables now because that's what's hot because of like the Ozempic craze. So like every medication is like peddling injectables because like the wave of like peptides and Ozempic and all that kind of stuff. Now it's like It's trendy, which is really interesting to me. That is weird, because I grew up with my dad having type 2 diabetes, and my grandfather too. And, you know, just seeing them inject like insulin and stuff, I was like, yuck.

Well, type 2 diabetes, the thing about that one is you can cure that.

Yep.

You just gotta stop eating like a pig, which is crazy. I know a bunch of people that have stopped themselves from having type 2 diabetes.

Yeah, and that's, that's a goal that I'm on, is preventing myself from ever dealing with that. Yeah, I don't, I don't eat sugar or anything.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, I gave up sugar.

Well, again, the ketogenic diet is supposed to be good for depression too. Do you take supplements? Are you taking magnesium and multivitamins and all that jazz? Oh yeah, that's good. So it seems like you're doing a lot of the right things, man.

Yeah, man, I'm, you know, I just—

I don't want to be a prisoner to pills.

Yeah, and I love my wife, and I'm just excited to have some babies, and just, I want to get myself— like, her career is taking off, and my career is going really well, and like—

does she take SSRIs?

Mm-mm.

No, that's good.

She's very anti, like, any pharmaceuticals, which I really admire about her.

I was just reading something about SSRIs and the development of children. Children's brains when women are pregnant and they're on SSRIs. Apparently there's a bunch of issues.

Yeah, I could see that.

I mean, look, man, there's millions of people on those things. There's a giant business, and they want to hide all the side effects and hide all the negative aspects of it and hide the impact that it does just to the overall psyche of the nation. When you've got— okay, let's just take a guess. How many people do you think in this country are on SSRIs? With liberal women, it's like 80%. But it is— the other 20% need them. Well, like, what's the percentage of people on SSRIs in America? Let's guess, man.

I'd say like— I would go even higher. I'd say like 60 to 75.

Really?

Yeah, 60 to 75% of the country Yeah. Wow. I don't think it's that. I think it's under 30.

It's too many.

It's too many. Yeah. It's definitely too many. But there's also a bunch of people that are looking for a quick fix when there's a bunch of factors to why you don't feel happy. Like we were talking about before, there's lifestyle, life choices, situation that is beyond your control, like where you're born, where you live, the job that you have, where you, you know, if you're in a place of limited opportunity, and you got a bunch of shitty people around you and life sucks every day, it's hard to be happy. Mm-hmm. It's hard to not feel depressed. So then there's the question of like, how does one develop the, the tools to get out of that situ— situation and get somewhere else? And for a lot of people, it's something that helps them break out, whether it's starting a business or being a musician or an artist or something that gets you out of there. And then you start getting around more positive people and then you make more positive lifestyle choices, but you just can't expect to be happy if your life is shit, right? 13%. Okay, I was way off. American SSRI prescribing. But I bet in your business that's why you think of it, because yeah, I mean, artists, I bet it's a lot higher.

13% of US adults report taking an antidepressant in any given 30-day period. SSRI is the most frequently used class within that group. Yeah, okay, so 13%. So that's 2015 to 2018.

I asked for an update for 2020.

It said it's about the same for 2026.

I mean, yes, I asked, is there any updates in 2020? And it basically said the same.

So about 13%, still a lot. 1 out of 10 people on crazy pills is a lot.

Yeah, and In, in the arts community though. Yeah, like within the artist community. The last data that I remember reading was like 70% of like artists struggle with some faction of mental health. But, um, I—

that makes sense.

Yeah.

And then there's also the newest element that targets your mental health and goes after it, which is social media. Yeah.

That's a rough one, boy.

That's a rough one. And so many people treat that as if it's no big deal. Like, you're shooting heroin into your eyeballs every day with that stuff. Yeah, man, not good. So many people are in there. Yeah, all day, every day. And then reading a bunch of negative shit about them and getting angry and upset, and then yeah, carrying that weight around with them all day.

It's easy to say like, don't read comments, but It's easier said than done.

Yeah, you know, yeah, especially if you have it on your phone. That's the thing, like, you got to not have it on your phone. If you have it on your phone, you're gonna go to it. But then the problem is if you use it for touring and for posting information, keeping your fans engaged, you know.

Well, the algorithm also serves you like you got to engage.

Mm-hmm.

Like, anytime you talk to a social media group, they're like, what are your engagement levels like? Like So they want you on the app using it, commenting, responding to people, because if you don't and you choose not to do that, then they're like, well, can we go on there for you and like respond to comments? I'm like, no, I don't want you punching in any bullshit. So I'm like, I want to be on there and be myself. And like, if this is a tool that I have to have, I want it to be me, like authentically. But you know, It's a necessary evil.

Yeah, but it, it ruins so many people's brains.

It rots you.

Yeah, it really does. And it's also— you're absorbing so much negativity just from what's going on in the world. Like, on any given day, if I open up Twitter and I just start reading what people are upset about, it's just like, oh my God, the whole world is falling apart. Everyone's mad at everything and everyone and every little whatever fucking social issue, political issue, world issue, economic issue. Everyone's blaming everyone and everyone's pissed. And then there's so many grifters and psychopaths that are just on there all day using it, stirring up bullshit. Fuck, man.

I know, it's, um, yeah. You think I could use the bathroom?

Fuck yeah, we can use the bathroom.

We'll get into this. Yeah, we got a lot to say about—

we're gonna pee, folks. We'll be right back. And we're back, ladies and gentlemen. Where were we? Depression, everything sucks, stay off social media. Yeah, let's talk about music.

Let's talk about some music.

Damn, that's— how does it take so long?

You seen that James Brown interview from the '80s when he's got those big glasses? Oh yeah, I'll talk about some music.

That fucking interview is amazing.

It's the best.

When he had just got arrested and—

I'm out on love.

Yeah. Aren't you out on bail? I'm out on love.

Yeah. And he starts talking to the women in the thing. He's like, why is that, ladies?

Yeah, no, it's hilarious.

That's the best.

Clearly high as fuck.

Yeah, something going on there.

James Brown was an original. When you first started doing music, how old were you?

Man, I was probably like 2 or 3 years old when I started fooling with it. Really? Yeah.

That's crazy.

Mm-hmm. My grandfather played, my uncles, my dad still plays, you know.

Wow. So were they professional or they just did it for fun?

My grandfather, so he was a career serviceman. He was in the Air Force and he was a staff master sergeant. And he played honky-tonks on the weekend. He was in charge of booking all the NCO clubs on the base. So he would book like Charlie Pride or Johnny Cash, Barbara Mandrell, and his band would open up and then back them up.

Oh, wow.

So he was a country and western purist.

Did you get to go to any of those shows when you were young?

No, well, so this was, this was back in the '60s. My dad's 73, I think, now. He was born in '53, and I was born when my dad was like 43.

Oh wow.

So by the time I came along, everybody was, you know, a lot of my family traded in like, I think they associated music with a lot of the secular lifestyle, so they kind of when they all got born again and into the church, that's around the time I came around. So the music was really associated with church, but I was really interested in that other stuff.

Isn't that interesting? I wonder why there's a division.

You know, I think about it a lot. I think that's the closest you can get to divinity, you know, is music, really. Allowing yourself to get that close to something. And the conviction that you feel in a church, you know, that's a good common thing for everybody to get on the same level.

And yeah, that's part of the church experience, that everybody having it together, experiencing it together as a group, being together live in a room with a great musician on stage when everyone's enjoying it together is very much a transcendent experience. Yeah, it really is.

It's like drinking the Kool-Aid, man.

Yeah, it's like there's a beautiful moment where you're all experiencing it together and you're all clapping and cheering or you're all dancing and singing along. It's a beautiful moment.

It really is.

Music is like a drug, man. It really is. It's like a beautiful drug. Like the right song when you're on the treadmill, you're like, Fuck yeah, you could just keep going, you know, tear a door off the hinges.

Yeah, if I hear like Little Feat's Skin It Back.

Yeah, yeah, there's certain songs that just give you fucking energy, man.

Like Bitch by the Rolling Stones. Oh yeah, that song, if I need a pick-me-up in the morning, that song comes on.

A great weightlifting one is Prison Sex by Tool. Oh yeah, oh, you know that song?

Tool's a band that I never really delved into, but I know Danny Carey, and, um, I know them because of my buddy Brent Hines. Did you ever listen to Mastodon? No, man, I gotta send you some, some choice cuts. But okay, Brent was— he was the fucking man. He just died back in September. Oh, um, I took him on the road right before that, which was—

oh really?

Which was messy.

Oh really?

Brent, he and Mastodon kind of had a mutual agreement that he would leave the band, so he was doing his solo thing, and like, he's one of my heroes, you know, and I was like, I'll take you out, sure, and like, he just threw it together somehow, and then I ended up having to kick him off the tour, which like broke my heart, but he kind of forced my hand. The night in question, like, I walked outside and he had this little tour manager named Angela, and she was crying, and my tour manager was holding her and she was crying. I was like, fucking A, what happened now? She said, I walk into the dressing room and Brent pee on the floor, and I said, no, no, you have to stop. So then he pee in his mouth.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

And like, I know. So you just have to picture my boy just like pissing and she's like, "Yep, stop." And then he's like, "Oh." And he just like—

And he puts this in his own mouth.

And like, at his funeral I told Matt Pike from Asleep, I told him that story and he was like, "Yeah? Like, and? Normal." He's like, "It's a party trick." That's a Wednesday move. And I was like, "Yeah, no, it's hilarious, but it really offended her and she got very upset." and the whole thing just fell apart.

And you know, that was the last straw. That was pissing in his own mouth.

That was what did it, really. But you know, get him some paper towels and fix this. I was ready to fix it, but like his whole band and crew, they were like, it's not working.

So what was he doing?

He was just, just partying a little too much, you know. And I mean I really, I love that dude like a brother, you know. I miss him. Miss him a lot.

Sometimes it takes a really wild, crazy, off-the-rails person to make music or make any kind of art that just moves you, drives you crazy.

Yeah, I mean, he was a true artist, you know. Like, he was insane. Yeah. You gotta have friends that your wife doesn't particularly love you hanging out with. Right?

You know?

There's something about that friend.

Yeah, that's a lot of my friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But those are the ones that make the magic. Yeah, there's something to it. And again, that it is a magic thing. You know, and this is coming from someone with no music. I have no talent. And so for me, like, watching it and experiencing it is a pure experience because I'm not like, oh, I don't like how he played that chord. I don't like how— I don't know anything about music. I just know I love it.

I mean, Rick Rubin, you know, he's held on to that.

Mm-hmm.

He wants to be, you know, and I think he has been like the, you know, the voice of like the consumer.

Mm-hmm.

He hears what the consumer wants to hear, and he knows what he likes. Yeah.

And he's got a very interesting mind. You know, he's a very interesting person to talk to. His perspective on things is very unique. I like him a lot. Yeah, really like him a lot. I like talking to him a lot. He sends you the wildest text messages. He— in text messages? Oh yeah, he sent me some fucking conspiracies that are often— sometimes I have to say, hey, that's not real. But every now and then he'll send you some So ones that make you question reality.

I like the thought of you talking Rick off of a ledge.

Not necessarily talk him off a ledge, just letting him know that some of the, you know, it's hard to know what's real and what's not real out there in the world if you're not like deep into the bowels of conspiracy theory movement.

Yeah, you know, right.

But again, a guy like Rick, like his sensibility, like he He has a— it's like a very valuable position. A person just with a unique mind that is just helping shape how music gets produced and created. Mm-hmm. And because like, whatever it takes, whatever it— I mean, it's not a science, like a math thing, or it's not carpentry, like you have to level this and square that. Like, no, man, there's like some weirdness and there's love in there and hate in there. There's, there's, there's a lot of stuff that is intangible. It's hard to describe like why this is better, why this is good, but when you hear it, you know. When you know, you know. You know, there's some riffs, you know, there's some riffs that just like, oh my God, like the beginning of Voodoo Child's Slight Return. Come on. Yeah, come on. Just the beginning, you hear it, you go, oh yeah, yeah, dude, yeah.

I mean, Dan Auerbach's another one who's just—

oh yeah, I love those guys.

Perfected the riff. Yeah, Josh Homme. Yeah, Stone Age.

Oh yeah.

You know, Rick's a funny one, man. I love his philosophy on music too. He just, he looks at it the same way that Colonel Bruce Hampton looked at it. Colonel Bruce Hampton and Rick both believed that music is like pro wrestling, you know.

Is Colonel Bruce Hampton the Colonel from Elvis? That's not different. Colonel Bruce Hampton.

Colonel Bruce Hampton, he was kind of like— so Billy Bob Thornton put him in a movie, in Sling Blade. He was— I can't remember his name in the film, but yeah, Colonel Bruce Hampton. There he is. He died on stage at the Fox Theater.

Wow. In Detroit.

No, in Atlanta.

Oh, okay.

His story is he was born with two birth certificates. He was just a wild man. He was just— he was all about, like, instead of instruction, he called it outstruction. And like, Billy Bob worked on a documentary about him in like 2003, and he was just like— his whole philosophy on music and just like why we do it and just pointing out the hilarity of like the business and like the coffee getters, as he referred to them. You know, we have a whole industry built around coffee-getters now. You know, all the people that got the suits, their lattes and stuff in the morning, now they're calling the shots. And that's a weird place to be. But Colonel Bruce Hampton, I, you know, I just— what I do now is I just buy copies of his documentary, basically, Frightened, and I just give it to people who aren't hip to the knowledge. So I'll send a copy down here.

Yeah, it's called Frightened.

It's called Basically Frightened.

Basically Frightened.

Colonel Bruce Hampton story.

Is it available anywhere? Like, is it on Apple or Amazon?

It's not streaming anywhere.

No.

So I just, I just collect the DVDs when I can find them.

Oh wow. Is it a— can you buy a DVD anywhere? Like, if people are listening to this and they want to get a hold of it?

Yeah, like eBay.

That's the only way.

That's the only place I've found them.

Really?

Yeah. And you'll be bidding against me.

I always keep buying copies of it.

Yeah. Every time I give one away, I buy another copy. Wow. Yep.

Here's a final thread on Reddit. People looking for it and someone's like, just mail me the DVD and I'll copy it for you. Like, you can't find it anywhere.

Wow. It would be cool if it were to be streamed somewhere. It's a fascinating story.

Why is it $15 on Amazon? But I don't know that.

Whoa, it's gonna be even real, right? They might just send you a fucking brick.

But he was somebody like, you know, Widespread Panic, that was like their guru, you know.

Really?

Colonel Bruce Hampton, Jimmy Herring, you know, Othill Burbridge, who I'm in a band with now, you know. He started with Bruce, really.

I've never heard of him before.

You know, it's just he's one of those guys that, you know, he was like to the Southeast, he was like our Frank Zappa, you know, like our Sun Ra.

Oh wow.

He's just all about just the outrageousness. And you know, I have a lot of friends who spent a lot more time with him than I did, but like he was one of the first people that took notice to what I was doing. When I was like 15, you know. And then I remember like being in Germany and finding out that he'd passed away on stage, which he predicted. He did? Yeah, he said that's how he was gonna go.

Well, if you keep performing long enough— now, Carlin died in a hotel room on the road.

Really?

Yeah.

I'm gonna have to download this for you real quick. Quick.

Oh, there you go.

It's unlisted on YouTube.

Oh, perfect.

Oh, it won't be there tomorrow though, after this episode gets released.

Yeah, can you download it?

I can try it.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, just download it too. I'll figure it out though.

Okay, Jammy to the rescue. Sorry folks, if you're getting this, you might be able to find it still.

I found it.

Yeah, maybe good luck, somebody can upload it on one of them other social media platforms. That's cool. I'm interested in checking it out. Well, I love music for inspiration, you know. It's, it's one of the unique art forms that inspires you to create, inspires you to go do things, you know. Whenever I see a live band or a live performer, I can't wait to go do something. I want to go write, I want to go perform, I want to Paul Mooney, who's a great comedian. You know Paul Mooney is? Yeah, he used to write for Richard Pryor. He was one of the real OGs back in the early days when I came to the Comedy Store. I was kind of blown. It was one of the guys I was always nervous around being around until he liked me. It's like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, Paul Mooney hates you, you're fucked. But he gave me that advice once early on. He said, if you want to entertain people people. He said, go be entertained. He goes, you want to entertain, honey? Go be entertained, homie. Go see some other shit. He goes, go see something that gets you— go see a great movie, go see a band, go see something.

Be entertained.

That's what— that's what my process is like in the studio, man. Like, this last record we did, like, we had a projector and we'd play, like, you know, a giant with James Dean, or we'd play like Easy Rider, Big Lebowski, or like films that like inspired us, films that we like really gravitated towards. And all the while, you know, waking up in the morning and reading East of Eden and just like some of these great architects of Americana and just like being inspired on every turn, watching live concert footage of bands that we love, Marshall Tucker Band, Skynyrd, whatever the case, just inundating yourself with inspiring stuff, you know, just something to get the juices flowing, yeah, to summon the muse, something to— sometimes we would play just the footage of like Midnight Cowboy or something, and we would, we would record, you know, in the mindset like we were trying to score this film, you know. Oh wow, just to kind of get a different approach.

I forgot about Midnight Cowboy. What a wild movie.

It's a good one.

Yeah, that was back when Times Square was dirty. Yeah, now Times Square is one big Applebee's.

That's when people would go and watch pornography together in a theater.

Yeah, not only that, but it was a thing in the early days of pornography where couples would go out and like Johnny Carson went to see Deep Throat. Yeah, there's like famous people went to see the film Deep Throat in the theater.

Yep. What was adult entertainment?

How— but how weird is that, that pornography— like, there was always stag films, right? Like, that was the thing that they used to make, like, in the early days of movies. They would film people having sex and you could watch it like at a stag party, which was like a bachelor party. But then people tried to make films, like artistic films, that had people having sex in them, which is really interesting that we, we find that abhorrent. Like, people don't like that in today's society. We don't mind— like this, this show From that I was telling you about, bro, the violence is horrific. The gore and the violence is crazy. That's okay.

Mm-hmm.

Just don't suck someone's dick. Don't make them cum. That's terrible. Do you remember the movie Bad Bunny? No, not Bad Bunny. Was that Brown Bunny? Brown Bunny. Remember the movie Brown Bunny? Brown Bunny was a Vincent Gallo movie that he made, and there was a real sex scene in there. Like, real— like, how do you say that lady's name? Chloe? I don't know how you say her name. She's a really good actress, and she blows him, like, for real in the movie. Like, it's a real scene, and the movie's a real movie. But then when it came to the sex part, they actually did it, and people were horrified. Yeah, I mean, it's so weird. Like, if it was violence, like, if it was a scene where she beat him to death with a baseball bat, mm-hmm, people would be like, wow, what a crazy movie, right? But it was a scene where she blows him, people like, this is outrageous, outrageous. And I think that movie ruined Vincent Gallo's career.

Really?

Yeah, because Vincent Gallo had been in a bunch of movies. He's a really weird guy, like a very interesting guy. And after that, he kind of dipped away from Hollywood, like he kind of vanished in a lot of ways. And that was the big thing. I remember reading these articles on how outraged people were that they had actually seen real sex in a movie. Like, it's so strange that we don't mind violence. Like, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Brad Pitt takes a lady's head and bashes it into a mantelpiece and fucking brains her.

Mm-hmm.

Fine.

Fine.

No outrage. No— everyone okay?

Everyone's okay.

But if he fucked her, like, actually pulled her pants down, you see Brad Pitt's penis in her vagina, you're like, this is crazy! Something that we all do.

Yeah, but the simulation of it is fine too, right?

Simulation of it's fine. Yeah, like if it was a sex scene and you just see his hips and her face, like, oh, and they're kissing, fine. Why don't you see actual sex?

Mm-hmm.

Even if it was like him and his wife, like if he made a movie with him and his wife and they decided to have actual sex in the movie, people would be like, this is disgusting. Get this fucking smut off the screen. But if they had a movie with him and his wife and she shoots him, you're like, okay, that's fine, didn't really happen.

Right.

Weird, right?

It is weird. I mean, hell, I did a commercial for— like, I did a shoot for this car and like they couldn't have me in the car while it was moving for insurance purposes, so they had to like make it seem like I was in the car while it was moving.

Insurance purposes. That's crazy. But that's more of a financial thing.

Yeah.

Are we— but the weirdness about sex, the point is, like, see if you can find that footage of all the people that were in line. There's like an old— there's a YouTube video of an old news report of people in line to see Deep Throat, right? And again, Johnny Carson was one of them. I think they even interviewed him after the film. Like, they, they went and watched people fuck and like it was a movie, like, you know, you're watching The Joker or something, right? Very odd.

It is odd. And they got that name Deep Throat from the Watergate.

Did they? Yeah, I thought Deep Throat was afterwards. I thought, I thought the Watergate thing was after.

I don't know, I could be wrong. Chicken or the egg.

Okay, so Watergate was what, '70?

'74?

Was it?

'72.

Oh yeah, so the movie came out first.

Okay.

And so that was after this. So that's interesting too, and you think about like '72 was not that long ago, and people's ideas of pornography were very different back then.

A lot of my favorite venues in the country were porno theaters first.

Comedy Mothership, bro. All right, yeah, was a porno theater at one point in time.

And like, people cared about like the quality of like the audio production in those films. And like, you know, and these rooms sound really good.

Variety Playhouse in Atlanta, it's one of the best scenes in American Werewolf in London. Okay, do you remember that movie, American Werewolf in London? It's a great fucking movie. One of the best scenes, they're in the middle of London and they're in an adult movie theater and these people are watching pornography. They're watching a smut film. And while these people are fucking, he turns into a werewolf and kills everybody.

I gotta check that out. Oh, it's great.

One of the greatest movies of all time. That wolf that we have in the lobby, that's a recreation. Oh really? Of American Werewolf. Okay. That's what that is.

The thing with Johnny Carson and Deep Throat, I think, is like a conglomeration memory.

Is it?

There's a weird— there is a photo of people waiting in line to see the movie.

Mm-hmm.

But it's like, this is it on the screen.

Mm-hmm.

But there was a video of Johnny Carson talking about it after the fact during his monolog that he went to see it.

Oh, so there wasn't a photo or a video of him at the movie theater?

I don't think so, man. I'm looking for it. I sort of remember what you're talking about. I think, remember, we might have read an article that listed all of this stuff together.

Mm-hmm.

What was that play where they had like— everybody was like naked and it was like really a big deal? Was it like Hairspray or something like that? I don't know. In the late '70s, my dad told me him and his friends went to go see this like Broadway production or Off-Broadway production where like everybody was like nude and it was like this really, you know, it was like this really racy thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And there was a preacher up front just like really just giving them hell, man. And then he got up closer and he realized it was his uncle. My great-uncle was up there just motherfuckerin' them.

That's hilarious. Widely cited overview, many works are quoted, note that several mainstream celebrities appear to have seen Deep Throat, including Martin Scorsese, Brian De Palma, Truman Capote, Jack Nicholson, Johnny Carson, Spiro Agnew, Frank Sinatra, and others. Barbara Walters later mentioned seeing it in her memoir. These references are usually brief, but they're pulled into many articles about the film's cultural impact. But that's what's so interesting. It's like, that is not, not normal in today's society to even think that a bunch of people would say they went to go see a porn film.

I think this is also So Midnight Cowboy, which is where you guys started this, 1969, which is before this, and won Best Picture as the first X-rated or NC-17 movie. So they started a little bit of a trend then.

Mm, interesting.

Only 3 years later, you know.

So why was Midnight Cowboy X-rated?

The reason?

Yeah, like what was, what was so explicit that they had to make it an X?

I would say a little bit has to do with marketing, but I don't know if there's a reason. I'll see if this is a reason.

Marketing?

Yeah, it'd make people want to go see it, right?

I guess. Oh, this is crazy. This movie's crazy.

It's not standing out here. All right, right here. After consulting with a psychologist, they told to give it a next homosexual frame reference. And its possible influence on youngsters.

Wow, that's crazy. Today that would be celebrated, right?

Oh, there's a rape scene. I haven't seen this movie.

I saw it in like the '80s. I haven't seen it in forever.

Yeah, but even, I mean, like in that film, it's like a distant thought that Jon Voight's character keeps going back to, like the rape scene. Whereas like, when was the last time you saw it? Um, a couple months ago probably.

Oh really?

But like, fucking, uh, The Deliverance just plays on AMC on TV, right?

Right. Which is another rape scene.

Nothing's edited out.

Squeal like a pig.

That one fucked me up when I was a kid, I'm not gonna lie.

Oh yeah, very much so.

Not to mention it like supposedly took place like in the Appalachian like backdrop, which is like where I grew up. I was like, that's fucking happening like here.

Because of then shocking sexual content, even more importantly, its frank portrayal of homosexuality and hustling— hustling meaning having gay sex for money— which the studio and censors saw as potentially corrupting to young viewers. The film includes scenes and references to male prostitution, homosexual encounters, and brief but explicit situations including implied oral sex and nudity, which went far beyond what Hollywood had shown in a mainstream drama up to that point. Huh.

Maybe now it would get just an R, but also that would be with this never existing, so.

Now it'd be celebrated. It's a film celebrating sex workers. Yeah, it's weird. It's weird what was, but it's also weird that there was a movie that was an actual porn movie that a bunch of people just went to see and talked about. Like today, people want to pretend they don't even watch porn.

Yeah.

Meanwhile, I think last check we did— well, I know we've done this before, Jamie. Like, what percentage of the internet is pornography internet traffic? Take a guess at that. I bet it's way more than SSRIs, right? Don't you think?

Yeah, I haven't— I haven't guessed right so far, so let's see.

50%. Oh, I don't think it's that high. I would think— I would say 30. Okay, I'd say 30% of the internet, but I could be wrong. I don't remember. 30% of the internet traffic is pornography. Let's say that. Maybe it's 40.

This is saying that's a myth.

It's a myth.

I don't— I mean, I haven't read through this yet.

That's a bunch of people lying about jerking off.

The 30 to 40% thing's a myth, apparently.

Okay. Porn makes up a small share of sites. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but traffic.

That says it.

Um, 30-40%, uh, widely stated. But what is the— what about traffic? The amount of internet searches? Yeah, but no, but I mean traffic, like the amount of bandwidth.

All right, then it's getting lost in this word because I used—

I used traffic.

No, I used traffic.

Yeah, you did. Why do we see higher numbers? See, 37% of the internet is porn. BBC reported tracing one of these popular figures back to single content filter company press release, not an independent audited measurement. Some advocacy. I bet now today, because of YouTube and the amount of streaming that goes on with like Instagram and TikTok, I bet it probably isn't as high as it used to be, the percentage-wise, because there's so much more content that's being streamed now than ever before. Porn-related searches are 13% on the web and 20% on mobile devices. That's funny. It's more on mobile devices because people can hide in the toilet. The content filter company—

okay, the claim comes from this.

Yeah, we read that. We already read that.

I just said so it could be just made up to begin with.

Yeah, it could be, but there's got to be like a number. I don't know, like the internet traffic.

I don't know how you'd get that number.

So some advocacy or internet safety groups cite very high traffic shares and storage figures example, nearly a third of all internet traffic, but these are rough, sometimes opaque estimates rather than peer-reviewed measurements. Hmm, okay, so it's at least 4%. So it says roughly websites, 4 to 12%. That's a lot. Just 4 to 12% of the whole internet is jerk-off websites. That's crazy. But the volume in terms of the amount of bandwidth used, right? But I bet if you went and watched Deep Throat today, it'd probably be pretty pedestrian, be tamed.

Yeah, it probably would seem just like softcore, right?

Yeah, like one of them Showtime late-night movies.

Yeah, I mean, it is something that I, you know, I like to save all that, you know, when I get home off the road, see my wife. Yeah, you know, it's something that it had originally.

The woman had an unusual birth defect that came from a doctor who has an unorthodox solution to make the best of her situation. That it?

Is that the Deep Throat?

Yes, yes. Well, that she could just take it—

some birth defect—

balls deep downward to her chin. That guy Harry Reems, he was like one of the first famous male porn stars. I think he went on to be a real estate salesman or something. Like, if you're one of those people that gets famous fucking, right, that's— that has got to be a very weird—

yeah, is that where the porn mustache comes from? Oh yeah, got it.

Oh yeah, he had a crazy 'stache. 1947. Wow, what's he up to these days? Did he? Yeah. When did he pass away?

2013.

Wow, didn't live that long. All that fucking, wasted all his jizz. I bet he shaved off his mustache and he was just anonymous, just drifting in and out of traffic. Nobody even noticed him, you know?

Right.

Weird life, having sex with people on camera.

Should we add that to the wall?

Oh, look at that. Everyone's got arrested. When would he get arrested to?

If we add it to the wall, probably for Indecent something.

Yeah, we should add that to the wall.

Memphis, you got to be up to some no good to get arrested in Memphis.

What did he get arrested for? Too much dick.

This is his appearance in Deep Throat led to his arrest by FBI agents in Memphis. Conspiracy to distribute obscenity across state lines. Whoa, whoa, he called it forum shopping. But I don't—

what does that mean? Forum shopping?

A legal term for the practice of litigants taking actions to have their legal case heard in the court they believe is most— oh, to give them a good judgment.

They're trying to fight.

They were trying to get him convicted, I guess, trying to make an example of them. So they found a court that would take the case.

Like for obscenity?

Yeah.

And then overturned in court. Miller v. California. Reams is granted a new trial. Charges were dropped in August.

Wow. So they just—

defense argues the first act to ever be prosecuted by the federal government for appearing in a film.

It's like the Lenny Bruce is slinging dick.

And then all these people got behind.

Very— Shirley MacLaine, Warren Beatty, Richard Dreyfuss, they all got behind him. Jack Nicholson, Ben Gazzara. Wow. Dick Cavett.

He was in Grease. That's the coach.

Wow. He was in the movie Grease the Musical? What? In 1978?

Out of fear his notoriety would jeopardize the film's box office, he was replaced.

Oh, he was cast and he was replaced by Sid Caesar. That's hilarious. Wow. After an 8-year— in 1982, after an 8-year hiatus from porn, Reems returned to the industry and performed in the film Society Affairs and reportedly received a 6-figure salary. How weird.

Way back then.

Weird. It is. The whole pornography thing is very strange because like people want to watch other people have sex because people like having sex, but it's like—

but you can't talk about it.

Well, you know, if you say you like it, people like, fuck is wrong with you? And then they watch it.

But if we could destigmatize it and like not give people unrealistic ideas of what happens in the, in the bedroom and, and note it as something that is entertainment, you know. I think it's entertainment.

The fear is that the women that are in it, they, for the rest of their life, they're always gonna be thought of a certain way. And the men skate, they don't really have a, like, they're thought of as seedy, but they don't thought as like, you know, girls that got used. Well, I think what's going to get weird is AI porn, because then you can watch porn and there's no victims, right? There's no person you feel bad for. Like, oh, that poor girl. Everyone's going to know that she sucked dick on camera. She took it in the ass on camera. It's not a real person. So then maybe you can watch that and remove any kind of victim.

Yeah.

I don't know. People are fucking weird.

People are weird.

I'll tell you one thing I've never tried, and I'm not going to. I don't want it. Nope, not gonna do it, is VR porn. Because Duncan told me, dude, have you ever seen VR porn? It's fucking amazing. Like, not gonna do it. I'm not gonna sit there with fucking goggles on, jacking off.

Joe hasn't left his house in about 6 months.

I mean, you imagine you're watching porn and the people are fucking 20 feet high in front of you. They're banging, and if you can move around in it, like you can move around in other VR, you can get like really close to watch the dick go in there.

Like, that's one thing I haven't tried either.

VR porn? Good for you. Stay away. VR in general is weird. You know what's really great though is VR games.

Oh yeah.

Have you ever done any VR games? You know what Sandbox is? You ever heard of Sandbox? Sandbox, they have one in Austin. They had one in Woodland Hills, right down the street from our old studio in LA, and it is a place where you go. It's like a big-ass warehouse, and you go to these rooms in the warehouse, and they have fans set up, and it's all like these, these walls, like it's all boundaries. They put a haptic feedback vest on you and goggles, and they give you rifles, and the plastic rifles, and then you get dropped into this virtual reality world where you fight zombies.

Oh shit.

It's fucking dope, dude. It's nuts. When the zombies attack you, they run at you, they claw you, you see blood splatter in front of your eyes, and you gun them down. It's fucking crazy. There's one called Deadwood Mansion. That's my favorite. And the Deadwood Man— there's a couple different Deadwood games. I think there's 2 or 3 now. I think there's 3. I think there's 3. There's 3 zombie games that you can play. That's 3 different ones. No, it's here. Here they have one in Austin. Yeah, it's out at the Domain. Yeah, it's out of the Domain. It's fucking so fun. My family hates it because they get like sick and I want it. That's all I ever want to do. So on Father's Day, I make everybody shoot zombies with me. Like, it's Father's Day. What do you want to do? Shoot zombies. Like, no, like, come on, we have to do it. Yeah. It's f— once you do it, it's fun.

Father's Day's coming up.

Tournament, Joe.

Tournament?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, uh, at one point in time, I had the number 3 score in the country.

No shit?

At Killing Zombies. Yeah, I went ham one day. One day I was just locked the fuck in. And the key is, I'm gonna give you guys a pro tip, if you're doing Deadwood Mansion, get the shotgun.

Okay.

The shotgun is overpowered. The shotgun kills more things than anything else. It's way better at it. But the game is nuts, man. I mean, there's, there's zombie rats that come running at you. There's fucking people that are attached to the walls and they shoot down their tongue and wrap it around your neck and they're pulling on you. Show them a clip of it. It's crazy. It is a fucking— it is, it's really fun, dude. You'll, you'll love it.

I'm gonna take the band to do that.

Yeah, that's what you could do. You could do it like 6 people.

He's going there for like band activities.

It's a good one. I bet they have multiple. I don't— I only know of these two of Austin. In LA.

The one I pulled up is in Atlanta.

Oh, there's one in Atlanta? Yeah, they have to have them all over the place. I don't know, I have no idea why it's not everywhere because it's so fun. It's one of the most fun things you could do with your friends. We've done it, my wife and I have done it on double dates. Like you go do that and then you go have dinner. It's like, it's great, man. It's great. It's really fun.

They got a ton of locations now.

Oh shit, they're all over the place now. Yeah, that's great. See if you can find a video of Deadwood Mansion. Oh, Deadwood Phobia. Oh, that's the newest one. That's the third one. Oh, there's a Squid Game one. We've done that one too. The Stranger Things one. They have so many different— Deadwood Valley, that's another one that's really good. The Deadwood Valley one, do they have a— yeah, there we go. So check this out. So this is what happens. You get dropped off into this city. And the zombies are there. And so this is, this is you. It's like it's cut between you with the guns and then like, this is what you see. This is what it looks like. So, but this is more like a video like showing you what it looks like on the outside. But when you're in it, wish they would show you what it looks like. That's what it looks like when you're in it.

Wow.

And these dudes are chasing after you, you're gunning them down. It's really fun. But again, there's a bunch of games that you can do that— survive the horrors. You gotta save the heroes. There's people in there that you have to save, and there's other people that you have to kill. It's dope. It's really fun.

It's badass.

So that's a good use of VR. Don't be looking at 10-foot vaginas.

Look at—

go kill fake zombies.

You get stuck on a train, and as the train's running down the tracks, they're jumping onto the train and trying to get you. You have to gun them down. It's really fun.

That seems like something like I could get into. I never played any video games growing up. Really?

That's crazy. How old are you?

30.

How's that possible?

I mean, I just— I never had much interest in them. Like, when I was young, I don't know.

Do your friends play video games?

By the rest of the band, they all play, you know, and you just say, "Nope, not interested." I was just never really into it, man.

Well, this is different than a regular video game. Like, this is very physical. Like, you're running around, you're in a room that's bigger than this room, and you have your haptic feedback. You also have fans that blow air at you, you know, like, see, like, if it's also to cool you off too because it gets hot as fuck and you're running around, you got this vest on, and when you get grabbed, the vest vibrates so you feel it like, "Oh." That's sick. Oh yeah, it's really fun. But it's probably good that you never got into video games because they're so time intensive. They rob you of your life. You think golf robs you of your life? You don't have to leave the house to play video games. Look at Jamie over there. How often do you play video games, Jamie?

Not that often.

No? No. I thought you were a junkie.

I actually haven't played in weeks.

Ooh.

Maybe.

But you were hooked for a while, right?

It's a fun—

as I'm thinking in my head, I'm like, I grew up playing video games, but I also wish I was fucking sick at guitar. So there's a fucking trade-off there. And most people I know who are sick at guitar aren't good at video games or play them.

So that's a very good point.

I did make— I made an effort like a year or two ago. I got a PS5 and I got Red Dead Redemption. I was like, I'm gonna fucking do it. I'm gonna play this game. And I just got— I was like, I feel like I'm just doing chores. I asked my drummer, he's like, yeah, it's pretty much what it is.

Oh, Red Dead Redemption. Yeah, you gotta play something like a first-person shooter, you know, play like Quake or something like that. Like, what's a— what's the big first-person shooter that the kids play today, Jamie? Fortnite. Fortnite's been around forever. When my kids were in like grade school, Fortnite was big. Yep.

And they just made some weird— I don't— I'm I stopped paying attention, but like Star Wars is now in Fortnite, and the games that they made for Star Wars are just like, nope, it's just in this thing now. You just play it in here.

Wow, really?

Yeah, it's like they download Stormtroopers and lightsabers.

Whoa.

Yeah, my nephews are always hitting me for, uh, what do they call that, like Fortnite bucks or V-Bucks? V-Bucks.

They want V-Bucks so they can play more. Yeah, there's Robux. My kids were always into Robux for Roblox, so you could buy things in Roblox. But apparently now there's like pedophiles have gotten into Roblox. They try to message people.

They ruin everything.

They do, they do. Creeps ruin everything. But there's some very fun video games that you shouldn't ever do because it'll fuck with all the other things you do. Like, not getting into golf, not getting into video games— again, Jamie's dead right. That's probably why you're so sick at guitar.

You can make a guitar gently weep.

Well, there's other things, like there's certain games where you can play guitar, like Guitar Hero.

That's not the fucking same.

No, no, no, but haven't people learned how to play guitar, an actual guitar, because of Guitar Hero?

There's a game called— there's technically a game, it's like a training aid called Rocksmith, which is way— it's, uh, you actually have a guitar and it's plugged into it, not on Guitar Hero, just hitting 5 buttons.

Oh, just matching red to red, blue to blue, and that's a timing thing.

But as you know, transfer—

it doesn't— oh, but it would— I would imagine that a game that would teach you how to play guitar with an actual guitar would be dope. Like, if you got like, you know, like these games, like the sandbox game Deadwood Mansion, they— you get a gun And if you got really good, like, Staccato has a VR gun game. Staccato, they make pistols, and there's a VR gun game, and you get a plastic Staccato. And when you're playing this game, like, you're actually pointing the trigger, and when you pull the trigger, there's actually like a muzzle jump. So your reticle actually jumps up and down a little. Your red dot jumps up and down a little bit. That was— that would be exactly like it would do if you actually shot a gun. So they have to like recenter it. Bang, bang, bang. And so you could run around doing things and shoot stuff and shoot targets.

And that's here too.

Yeah. And you know, but that's a game that you can get for like Meta VR goggles, like consumer VR goggles. And so you doing that could get better at shooting guns because you're shooting a plastic— doesn't weigh the same, but it's the same shape, the same form. It's a plastic gun. I mean, what they really should do is make one of those things with the weight of an actual steel gun so that you're accustomed to the actual feel of the thing.

Yeah.

And then, God, why can't they do that? They should be able to do that. Maybe I'll talk to them. But if you did that, like, that would be a skill that would actually transfer over. So if they could do that with a guitar, if they could figure out a way to attach, like, computer sensors to an actual real guitar, This is Rocksmith.

This is, uh, there's levels of it. You can slow it down.

And what are you playing? Real songs.

You pick the song.

They're all real songs, right? But what is the interface?

A guitar.

Oh, an actual guitar?

Yeah, it's plugged in with the USB cable to the computer.

Oh, it's their virtual guitar?

No, no, this is just— I showed you what it looks like on the, the game, but right.

What is it? But it looks like an actual guitar.

It's a real— whatever guitar you want to play. Ah, it's your guitar. It's not, it's not a fake guitar. Oh, guitars are just things that vibrate strings and expel—

oh dude, that's dope—

expel a digital sound thing.

That's, that is dope.

But I think pretty sick.

After a while you'd have to abandon that, right?

But yeah, he's good at guitar. I mean, he said he'd learn that.

Did you learn by lessons or did you just learn by playing?

So initially I just learned by just sitting around the house watching cartoons, playing guitar. My grandfather would teach me something, he'd give me like a project basically, or my dad would leave me a record to listen to and it was just his old record collection. So a lot of Allman Brothers Band, a lot of Skynyrd, Marshall Tucker Band, that kind of thing. And then I would just sit at home all day and just go over it. And then later when I was in high school, I studied jazz theory with Steve Watson at this— it was like a vocational school for the arts called the Fine Arts Center in Greenville, South Carolina. And I'd go there in the afternoons and study jazz theory, which was which was really beneficial because it's good to put a vocabulary to the things that you kind of knew, you know, but you didn't know how to quite name it.

Right.

Just kind of learning the, you know, the vocabulary, learning, you know, what things are called, and then expanding upon that, you know. Yeah, music theory is a valuable tool.

Yeah. Does it help you in writing songs?

It can. It helps in like, like in Nashville, they use something called the Nashville Number System. So like you go into a session and like it's all based off of the major scale. So like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and then the 8 is just the octave of the 1, right? So they'll say like we got a 1, 4, 5, you know, and it just represents what the chords are.

Yeah.

Wow.

This is where math and stuff gets really interesting. You go down this rabbit hole forever. You could bring Terence Howard back in here.

Honestly.

And then you bring in ancient Egypt and say this is all vibrations and you could probably translate hieroglyphs into some of this music theory stuff.

It's fucking weird.

Terence Howard trying to find the one. Yeah, like in a beat.

That's hilarious.

But the first time I used the number system was with Auerbach.

Oh, really?

Yeah, because Dan, like, his house band for a long time was the remaining members of the Memphis Boys who played on like Son of a Preacher Man by Dusty Springfield.

Oh, wow.

And like Suspicious Minds, that kind of thing. Gene Crisman was 80 years old playing drums. Bobby Wood, keyboard player Billy Sanford, and his second session in Nashville was Pretty Woman, and he wrote the riff. Oh wow. So I walk in, I was early to the session, and they were still— they were finishing up their first session of the day, which was John Prine. And I walked in, it was just like, whoa, wow. Dan was like, that Marcus, get his ass in here and play some slide guitar. So they threw a chart in front of I just had to pretend I knew what was going on. Yeah, that's where you got to rely on your ear. Mm-hmm. But it's conversational too. Like, if you don't really know what's going on, like, you don't want to say much.

Yeah, right. That's fascinating, man. Yeah, I'm scared of music. Not, not really, but I'm scared of practicing it. I'm scared of learning it because I just feel like it would be very rewarding.

It is.

And I'd get very obsessed. Yeah.

Something to it.

Yeah. Well, listen, man, I'm glad there's people out there like you doing it.

Man, I'm just thankful.

Well, that's the best attitude to have. That's what I think. I think gratitude is the best attitude to have.

Yeah.

Anyone that's doing what they actually want to do, what's going to propel you forward and and keep it going is probably gratitude. Yeah, just be happy that like you're able to do one of the coolest fucking things in the world for a living. Kind of amazing.

Just— and don't be an asshole.

Don't be an asshole. That's it.

You'd be surprised how hard it is to follow that one.

I know, right? A lot of people fail. Well, thank you, Marcus. Thanks for being here, brother. It was fun. I enjoyed it. What's that?

Oh, thanks for having me.

Anytime. Let's do it again.

All right.

Bye everybody.