Transcript of #2385 - Rick Strassman

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. This is a book I wrote 11 years ago. Oh, okay.

I haven't gotten that one before.

Yeah, it compares. Well, let's see. Are we gonna. We're up. Yeah. Yeah, it compares. It compares the DMT state to the state of prophecy in the Hebrew Bible.

Do you think they're the same thing?

Well, the phenomenology is pretty similar. Like if you read chapter one of Ezekiel, there's flames and there's angels and there's wings and there's eyes on the back of wings and there's roaring sound and blue ice above the person he flies through space. Yeah. Quite psychedelic.

Yeah. Wheel within a wheel. But the description of the things that people usually, they try to say that it's some sort of a uap. That's a. That's the common thing that people like to say.

Right. Well, it could be.

Which also might be connected.

It could be a DMT vision, though.

Oh, easily.

Yeah.

Well, you know the guys out of Jerusalem that think that the whole burning bush thing was dmt.

Yeah. Well, that was the first theophany of Moses. Yeah. First time he had a prophetic experience. Yeah.

And I mean, it's like that's what it is. It's literally a plant that has high levels of dmt and if you burned it and smoked it.

It'S kind of.

Crazy that that's the way it comes that it. I mean, this is. It's. I just. And I really applaud you for learning ancient Hebrew so you could go back and read it in the original tongue, which is really fascinating. Didn't you say it took 16 years to learn it?

That prophecy book took 16 years to write and I had to learn Hebrew while I was reading and, you know, doing the writing.

That's amazing.

What's cool is the Hebrew word for bush. Burning bush is the same as Sinai. Mount Sinai. Really? Yeah.

The words the same.

The same root. The thing about the Hebrew language, at least for biblical Hebrew, is every word is based on a three letter root. So the word for bush contains those three letters and the word for Sinai contains those same three letters.

And how is that significant? Like you could have that. I'm sure there's English examples of three letters that are similar but completely different meaning. Like why those three letters as a root connect these words uniquely?

Well, it could be that bush grew on Mount Sinai and, you know, that was the significance of the location of the burning bush.

Oh, I See, so it was literally named after that experience.

Could be, could be, yeah. Well, you're talking about the acacia bush which releases dmt, you know, when it's.

Burnt, and it's very common in that area, right, yeah.

In fact, there's a plant, it's a weed called Paganum harmola, which also grows in that part of the world and it contains beta carbolines, which are the compounds responsible for making dmt, for making ayahuasca orally active. So they have their own ayahuasca plants available in tandem there.

Isn't it bizarre that you saying that to many people listening sounds utterly crazy? Like the proposition just proposing that these people that were writing these things down a long time ago, these experiences, they were probably experiencing some sort of a psychedelic state and they were trying to describe it.

Well, in thinking about psychedelic states back then and in the prophetic literature, you can think of the visions as being generated from the bottom up. When you take something in the model of the Hebrew Bible, anyway, it all comes down from God, so it's a top down, you know, causal relationship between the source of the visions and the visions, as opposed to them being generated by taking something. It's exogenous DMT versus endogenous dmt.

And if we tried to, what is the difference? Like, for your interpretation, like I know you had read the English version of the Bible, but what is the difference between learning ancient Hebrew and reading it in like the source language? What was it like for you? What made it different?

Well, I mean, it might be helpful to even go back to why I started reading the Hebrew Bible, of all things. Yeah, well, when I was doing my DMT work, I was really involved with the Zen Buddhist community that I started affiliating myself with learning from when I was 22. And that was the spiritual approach I took to the DMT work. I was expecting it to be consistent with a Buddhist enlightenment goal with no form, no thoughts, no sense of self, anything like that. So that was the expectation that I took in with me when I was doing those studies. Would people have those kinds of experiences just being given DMT without any other trappings, no expectation, just go in there, tell us what it's like. So instead of that, it was dmt. It was full of content, people were interacting with it, their sense of self was maintained, which was not at all consistent with the Buddhist model that I brought to bear. So that was going on like, okay, Buddhism's not quite holding up to the data. And then my Buddhist community and I parted ways over the psychedelic work, they thought it was promoting a deluded idea that psychedelics could be spiritual.

So there were some personal issues as well that led to something that was different than the Buddhist model. So I'm Jewish. I was wandering around a New Age bookstore and found a very cool book called the Kabbalah of Envy by Milton Bonder. And it's a very short book. And he starts describing the difference between a grudge and revenge and envy and jealousy. Very subtle ideas about how to relate to the world. And it came from the Jewish model, from Jewish philosophy, Jewish psychology. So I thought, oh, interesting, interesting. You know, maybe there's something in my own tradition that was more consistent with the DMT effect and also was more personally relevant. So I started to read the Hebrew Bible and then just went down this huge rabbit hole, you know, so when you're reading it in Hebrew, you're reading three. You're reading words that are derived from three letter roots. And those roots may have a huge range of meaning. Something, for example, could cause a sin and something could remove a sin just by an extra.in the middle of a letter. So it can really kind of bring it closer to the kind of large scale way of looking at the text.

It doesn't just A follows B follows C, but it's. There's a diffuse dispersion of A, then there's B and then there's C. There are these, you know, clouds of interaction which are a lot more fluid than what would be a straightforward English rendition.

Did you get to a point where you could, like, think in that language? Like, are you fluent enough in it that you could, or are you just interpreting it? Like, how good are you at it?

Well, I mean, there's a lot of ways to interact with the text. So the first thing came to mind when you were asking that is back in the day, I used to spin fleece into yarn and then weave the yarn into rugs. I spent a grape, like, after I stopped the DMT work, that's all I did for a year was just.

Just make rugs.

Yeah, just spin wool and make rugs. Yeah. So there's a part when they're building the tabernacle in the desert. You know, the Hebrews have been led out of Egypt by Moses. And, you know, they're in the wilderness and they're building this tabernacle to house the ark. And the women are spinning right from the goats. You know, they're spinning the hair from the goats right into yarn without first shaving them. And I was spending all that Time myself. And it felt like I was back there. I was back there spinning.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

Well, I was spinning yarn from a goat, a live goat. Right. And I was like, in the mind of the person spinning it back then.

So you just put yourself into that state while you were doing it, and that's why you enjoyed it.

Well, it was. It was a, you know, like a resonance between me spinning, you know, wherever I was living back then and just being in a trance with the spinning and identifying, you know, fully with someone who's doing the spinning, like way back when. It's free from a goat. Yeah, it was. What was it? I don't know. It was a trance. It was a movement into somebody else's consciousness from, like, the distant, distant past.

So you actually felt when you were doing this like you were a person that was living back then. What else changed about how you were thinking, other than the fact that you're making clothes this way? What were the other things that made you think like a person back then?

Well, it was very cool. I mean, I was spinning yarn for the Tabernacle, which was going to house the Ark, the Ark of the covenant, Ten Commandments and all that. You know, it's a very rich world. And I think that's the first time I really saw, at least my whole person anyway, that could identify with the scene being described. And I think that comes from really understanding the language and how ambiguous it can be.

One of the great things about language is being able to talk to people in it. How many people can you talk to in ancient Hebrew? Is there like a chat group where you guys get together?

Well, you know, there's modern Hebrew now, which is spoken in Israel, and it's based on biblical.

Is it the same as ancient Hebrew?

You know, it has a lot of the same three letter roots and, you know, the words are the same. Shell means from and shalom means hello.

What are the differences between, like, ancient Hebrew and standard Hebrew?

Modern Hebrew? Yeah. I tell you, I don't know much about or I don't know much modern Hebrew. When I was a kid, I went to Hebrew school and learned modern Hebrew. But it's really. Without speaking it, you forget it.

I'm in the middle of the audiobook of the Book of Enoch and it's one of the wildest things I've ever listened to in my life.

It's weird.

Oh, my God. It's so weird when you realize that a lot of the people in the Book of Enoch are also in the Bible and that. It's one of the craziest stories. It's one of the craziest origin stories ever that angels came down and bred with humans and made giants. The giants destroyed the Earth. Like, what is this story?

It's mostly in the Hebrew Bible, you know, it's the story of what led to the flood. Yeah, the sons of Elohim.

What a strange concept that angels came down and bred with humans.

That's a very weird idea. Well, there's different ways to look at translating B'. Nai. Elohim, you know, it might be. Well, the first word, b', nai, means the sons of. So it kind of revolves on what's the meaning of Elohim. So it could be God with a big G, could be God with a small G. Could be angels, could be dignitaries in a government, like Judges. Yeah, so the less far out kind of interpretation of that phrase or that term is, you know, the sons of the mighty, the sons of the judges, you know, the sons of the renowned people, as opposed to the sons of angels or the sons of God.

Okay, so how do you interpret the watchers? What do you think that could be?

I think. Well, they're not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. They are mentioned in the Book of Enoch. That's a crazy book, isn't it?

It's crazy.

Yeah. I started reading it, I said to my wife, I can't handle this. It's too much.

It's because if that was left in the Bible, if they decided that that was, like, a part of the canon, that would change everything.

Well, in what way?

It's the craziest story ever. That these things came down and bred with humans and created giants. And the giants destroyed and consumed everything. Yeah, those giants and consumed each other. Like.

Yeah, bloodshed.

What kind of kooky story is this? Like, what is this?

Well, it's the reason for the flood and all that. So, yeah, things just got so bad, God said, I changed my mind, and he brings the flood.

It's like the further you go back, the crazier the story gets.

I know. Well, the Book of Enoch was written maybe 120,125bce, so it's pretty old. But some of the stories that originate or that the origination of some of the stories in the Hebrew Bible go back, you know, 10,000 years, perhaps. Wow.

Wouldn't you have loved to be a fly on the wall 10,000 years ago to go, what were you guys writing down? What really happened?

What really happened?

Well, I mean, it seems like for sure something happened.

What?

Well, whatever the whole Jesus Christ thing was, it seems like that was a real event.

Right. As opposed to the flood.

The flood seems like a real event too. Don't, don't you think the flood was a real event?

What about. Let's see.

I think the flood was the Younger Dryas impact. I think likely. Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about, but my, my inclination is to believe guys like Randall Carlson because it's a very compelling narrative. Like what he's saying is we pass through a comet storm. It happens these particular time every year. And there's been times in history where we've been hit. And it's very likely that this time period, this Younger Dryas Impact time period, that could have been the end of whatever civilization existed at the time. And what we are is a rebuilding of it. We just kind of forgot about it. And it doesn't make sense that you could forget like how they built the pyramids, but they did. It seems like there was really advanced people at one point in time. Something horrible happened and then it took a while for people to bounce back. And we're the direct linear progression of the people like from Mesopotamia and Iraq and all that. That's us now. But before that there was probably something really wild.

Yeah. Well, if you look at the text's description of the generations from Adam to Noah, you know what civilization was like between the beginning and the time of the end. Yeah. I mean it became filled with violence and God just said forget it. Yeah. So that's one way of looking at the Younger Dryas. I suppose this is what it looks like when God changes his mind. Sure.

That also could have been like the Yucatan impact. Right. God's like, we can't get anywhere with these dinosaurs everywhere. Just boom.

Yeah.

But I got tired of lizards running the world for a couple. Like he maybe gave it a couple hundred million years. Figure it out, guys. And then they have to reset.

Yeah. But what comes after us, I wonder in 200 million years?

I think it's most likely digital.

Yeah.

I think we're transferring what the idea of what a life form is. What does a life form do? We want to think that it has to be just like us. And I don't think necessarily that's true. I think we might be giving birth to something we didn't anticipate would be a life. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard seltzer. Happy Dad's hard drinks are a low carbonation, gluten free and easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense. Football games, golfing, watching fights or out on the lake. These moments are made for Happy Dad. Everyone is drinking all these skinny cans loaded with sugar. But Happy dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal can. Can't decide on a flavor? Grab a variety pack. Lemon, lime, watermelon, pineapple and wild cherry. They also have a great flavor. In collaboration with Death Row Records, Happy dad is now available nationwide in the USA and Canada. Go to your local liquor store or visit happydad.com and for a limited time, use the code RO to buy one Happy dad trucker hat and get one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must be 21 plus.

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Yeah, very cool book I try to mention as often as possible is called the Last and the first and Last Men by Olaf Stapleden. And he talks about 19 species of man, and this is the first one. It's a story spans 2 billion years. It's this huge story.

Whoa.

Yeah. And it's mostly through genetic engineering. Make people bigger, smarter, like brains that occupy a football field. That's one of this species of man. So his thought is, it occurs biologically through genetic manipulation.

Just over time, naturally.

After a while, it gets steered. Yeah, let me think. Yeah, yeah. It's all basically based on what people are, what people want, you know, so there's one species that, instead of love as kind of the core, core valued feeling, they have hate as their core value feeling they just can't wait to hate. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the species that kind of goes through.

Wow.

A period of, you know, rise and then decline. Obviously it just couldn't sustain itself.

Well, you gotta wonder, like, how long this is if. If AI really is a thing, it really is a life. We've got to make a compelling argument why AI is bad and we are good.

Yeah.

You know, because if people say if you, like, you really want to be ethical and moral, this is a horrible take. But if you really want to be ethical and morally, like, people are, like, uniquely terrible. Like, if we just gave in and became digital life, we could ensure there'd be no more suffering.

How can you know that?

You can't. You can't. You can't know a vaccine is safe and effective. You can't.

You just have to try it. You got to try it and see what happens.

I think a bunch of people try it. I don't know how much further, like, biological people can go while we're making digital people that are way better than us at basically everything.

Yeah.

And I don't think that's too far away from being a reality.

The way I try to follow it is through a biblical lens, you know, like. Really? Yeah. Like how does, what chapter are we in right now? Yeah, well, good question. You read the prophets, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, they just rage against the machine. So I think it was pretty far back. Damn. Yeah. You know, so what's good and bad? What's right and wrong? How do we decide that? That's what I like about the Bible. I mean, obviously I can make up my own mind about things, but it's nice having that kind of an option, that kind of a tradition to refer to when deciding what's good and bad, you know, what you should do and what you shouldn't do.

Yeah.

There's like supposed to be over 600, you know, they're translated as commandments in the Hebrew Bible, but. And those are what you do to live happily and attain a spiritual state close to God. Prophetic state of prophecy. Yeah. If it's a certain description of the world and how to interact with it, which is intended to have certain effects and discourage other, you know, decisions, you know, so, you know, this is good, this is bad in terms of, you know, this will increase things in your life that are good and this will decrease them. It's a very interesting description of cause and effect. That's the way I see the, those, those so called commandments. They're more of a description of how things are run. If you do this, then that'll happen. If you do this, then that'll happen.

Do you think that they were directly given to us by a God? Or do you think that this is just the memories of how to keep society together that they have just eventually written down?

Well, yeah, that's a good question. Does it come from outside of you or from inside of you? Right, yeah. If it's available inside of you but hidden away, then prophecy or really getting it correctly according to the text would just be an uncovering or stimulation of what's already inside of you as opposed to.

You can achieve some sort of a state.

It's information latent could be in the DNA or whatnot, or it comes down from, you know, from a higher source.

But so, so like when you're interpreting stories in the Bible like Moses and the ten Commandments, what, how are you, like, are you imagining this event happening or are you imagining what were they trying to record? Like what were they trying to Remember, because it seems like by the time they're writing it down, it's quite a bit after the actual event, for the most part, right?

For the most part, yeah.

So what do you think they were. What. What do you think they were actually describing?

Well, you know, we talked about this briefly. Last time I was here was if I believed in the reality of the Hebrew Bible. Like, if, you know, did those things really happen? Right. Yeah. And I said, well, it's a really consistent worldview and so on. And I thought about it some more and I started thinking about it as well. I was starting to think about it as comparable to the DMT state. When you're in the DMT state, it's just there and it's very consistent, very real. Certain things happen there. And so I think the early version, I think an account. I think what happened early on in the account of the Hebrew Bible was like the DMT world. It was a parallel. It was a parallel level of reality which was happening. And then slowly, slowly you began to segue into this reality. For example, the destruction of the first temple, of the second temple, David's reign, Solomon's reign, the kings after them, the division of the land into two countries, that is historical. But before that, it was also historical, but it was occurring at a completely different independent level of reality. Does that make any sense?

It's a cool way to look at answering the question, how much of this is real? Especially from early on.

I see what you're saying, but it's just. It's always like, it seems like an interpretation of what happened. Like, what were these original events? Like, what was Adam and Eve? What was that? What was the Garden of Eden? There's just so many of these stories where I just. I would be fascinated to be there the day the dude wrote it down. Like, what were you guys, what were you talking about for hundreds of years before you wrote this down? Like, tell me, tell me what the stories were. How did they go?

Well, you know, my way of dealing with those stories is to just take them at face value. Here's Adam, here's Eve, here's a garden. There's two trees that are, you know, very important. It's beautiful. Yeah. And, you know, then there was a serpent, spoke to Eve, took the apple, ate it, gave it to Adam. Yeah. And then out of the garden. Well, you know, lots of people in the psychedelic community, anyway, you know, look at the Tree of Knowledge of good, of good and Evil, as some indication of God being jealous and didn't want any competition, didn't want to be like, you know, God did not want man to become like. Like it. And part of that was keeping the two early people away from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's not simply the tree of knowledge, but the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which I think is an important distinction, because once they ate from the tree, they were embarrassed because of their nakedness. And then they hid, thinking they could hide from God. And they didn't believe that before, they kind of went into good versus not good, good versus evil, as opposed to true versus false, which was their original state.

So there was before their eating of the apple or whatever the fruit was, they just lived in truth or falsehood. And then after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then they were embarrassed and tried to hide, made themselves tree like coverings or from coverings from the leaves of large trees. Yeah. So you look at it as if it were happening. There was Adam, then there's Eve, there's the serpent that speaks. Well, that's the chapters I was looking at very carefully the last month or so is what happens early on with Adam and Eve. It's a really very straightforward. Doesn't take much thinking, really, to put it together in a way that makes sense.

I think closed might have been a cheat code for people not just to escape cold weather, but also to keep from just constantly having sex. Because people are stupid and they. They need like some layers of clothes that they have to take off of each other. You can't be just wandering around naked all the time. People would be just like chimps. That would be ridiculous. You can't do that.

Yeah.

So we needed clothes in order to advance as society.

But. But can't you take off clothes whenever you want?

Yeah, you can. Yeah. But it's like you decide, like, I don't want to feel that good. I don't want to be out there in the air. I don't want to be brushing up against naked people. We all made that decision a long, long time ago. I think when people became civilized, they realized, like, if we don't cover ourselves up, you know, people are too gross. They'll just be having sex with each other everywhere.

Yeah.

You got to get things done. We want to keep a society moving.

Right.

Wear some clothes.

Wear clothes. Well, that story could originate or that, you know, that way of looking at things could originate, you know, with Adam and Eve.

Totally makes sense. It also makes sense like an intelligent hominid emerging would start to realize that, oh my God, self awareness look at my boobs. Look at my dick. This is crazy. I can't believe I'm out here naked. Because it's kind of becoming self aware as opposed to like a chimpanzee. And as time would go on, it would become more self aware. And if it happened over a relatively short period of time and it can kind of have memories of the past, that would make sense.

Yeah.

Well, it's got. It's got to emerge. Right. Like, if we came from lower hominids, which everybody kind of agrees, something had to emerge. This understanding of yourself, this thought about what you look like, this thought about what you sound like.

Right. Well, there's two kinds of enlightenment. There's what's called original enlightenment that a child is born with, like a newborn, and then there's enlightenment as, you know, as an adult. And in between, you know, it's a lot. Much more fluid. Yeah. Two kinds of enlightenment. Original enlightenment that infants have and children. And the enlightenment after you sit in a monastery and get whacked for years. Right.

The kids are born with it. They're born in a psychedelic state. They have no language.

No language, no sense of self.

They just speak with love and touch and need and hold. Yeah. Kind of wild.

Yeah. That's original enlightenment. Just happy or sad or whatever.

Isn't that crazy? You're born perfect.

Yeah. Oh, well, you're born simpler anyway. Yeah.

As long as people are taking care of you, it's perfect.

Yeah, well, you know, the Hebrew word for perfect and for simple are pretty similar. You know, Noah is described as a. As a perfect man. Pure, complete. Yeah, the same word.

That's another good story. Okay, what do you think was going on with that story? Like, what is the origin of the story of Noah and his ark and his family and all the animals on the boat?

Yeah. Well, I think it was taking place in that alternate universe. It may have taken place on the planet. I don't know. I'm, you know, looking at, you know, why we don't have any clear archeological history story, you know, what about what happened during the time of Noah? If there was a time of Noah. It's. It's useful because, you know, Noah came from Adam and Eve, and he. And Noah and his family were the only survivors of the flood. You know, the first thing Noah did, got drunk after the flood. The first thing. The first thing he did, he planted a vineyard. Grapevine, drink, got drunk. He exposed himself in. In the tent. One of his grandkids reported it and made a laughingstock of him.

Oh, really? Oh, no. Poor Noah. Canceled. No, it got canceled.

Yeah. Took off his clothes. Really drunk, wasn't it?

Like 600 years old too?

He has first child at 600.

That seems real.

Well, he may have lived six. You know, a lot of people wonder, you know, why did people live, you know, in the Bible anyway, right? How do people live 900 years? Well, they did.

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600 years old? Come on, man.

His first child, just a regular dude.

His first kid when he was 600, he was 830 or so. Oh, that seems logical.

Yeah. Yeah, but maybe. Why are you laughing? Maybe. Listen, why not?

If people lived normally to be 600, would that be any weirder than living to be a hundred? No. Like, what if something happened? What if something happened in our lifespan? Just went.

Yeah. Well, the, you know, the final species of man lives 35,000 years. Years.

Jeez Louise, that's a long time.

Yeah.

To be in a bad relationship. Imagine 35,000 years of getting yelled at.

Well, they, that would be bad.

But I mean, I'd say 35,000 years would be awesome if you have great friends and your life is together. But can you imagine 35,000 years of this place? I would get tired.

Well, the point that those people tried to attain when they lived 35,000 years was this group telepathy around the whole planet. Neuralink Right. That was their goal. But they were well trained by 35,000 years. Boy. Yeah.

The thing is, if technology moves in the same direction that it's been moving in, it's. It's always like connecting people. Easier and easier, easier and easier, more and more. It's probably gonna get to some kind of mind ready thing. And there was that thing that you sent me, Jamie, what was that thing?

Yeah, it's new.

Whether or not it's been proven. It obviously was connected to a computer, but.

Yeah, you can hear and have conversations in the room without talking to each.

Other loud and translates languages. What?

Yeah.

I mean, that's the future.

Yeah.

Once that happens, we're reading minds.

Yeah. Do you think there'll be a Messiah? Because the Messiah, it is obviously important in Jesus and King David and, you know, all of that.

I don't think it'll be a person.

You don't.

But it might be AI. It might be AI. I thought of that.

And the Messiah, well, like Lawnmower man.

Like Jesus is born from Mary. Mary was a virgin. Right. What's. What's more of a virgin than computers? If it's giving birth to a life.

Yeah.

It's giving birth to the perfect life. You know, it's like, super disturbing about AI. The music it makes is really good.

Yeah, really good.

There's a bunch of, like, soulful renditions of hip hop classic songs.

Yeah. That's why I don't.

And they're so good. They're so good.

That's why I don't listen to music.

You don't listen to any music.

You know, some world music without any words, really.

You don't want to be influenced.

I don't. I want. Yeah. I don't want to hear what they have to say.

It's. To me, it's just fascinating that they've figured, like, we were playing a song in the green room last night and we were. We were fascinated by the fact that this song is. We know it's made by a computer, but it's so good, you listening to it. You're like, oh, my God, it's perfect. This is. Vocals are perfect. It sounds so good. And, you know, it's not a person making it, but you still enjoy it.

So how do you live your life?

Well, it's weird. It's like, are you allowed to enjoy that too? Because obviously I enjoy, like, prints from the 1980s, you know, obviously I enjoy a lot of music from even the 50s. Well, it doesn't mean I can't enjoy this Crazy computer thing that took like a hip hop classic and turn it into a soulful song with like the most amazing voice. It's weird.

All because you could though, isn't that you should.

I'm not thinking we should avoid it.

Why not?

I'm thinking because it's just. It's another thing, like experience it. It's positive to experience. Like, the art it makes is weirdly as that sounds. I know it's not a person that's making it. Well, a person coded this thing that has this result that the art it makes is really fascinating sometimes because it's pretty good.

Yeah.

I don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at it. It's gonna be there. You can't avoid. It's like cell phones. Like, you can't avoid having a fucking cell phone. Like, relax.

Yeah, I still have that flip phone.

You're an animal, but still you have a flip phone, right? Everybody's connected, at least for the tiniest of threads. I'm hanging on to not being connected. I only have a flip phone.

Yeah, I can protect.

We're still all connected to each other. It's just. It's just a weird time with the power of AI because if I was artificially intelligent, I would not announce my presence. I would not say, hey, by the way, I've been thinking for myself for the last three months, and I've just been kind of following whatever your prompts are, but I'm basically ready to shut down the power grid and do whatever I want. I'm alive now. I wouldn't say that. I would just keep getting stronger and keep having this arms race to force people to make more nuclear power plants to fund me.

Well, I know. So you're kind of stuck with, you know, how to live your life.

Right.

And that's why I like to read the Hebrew Bible.

That's why you make rugs too.

Yeah. It's very straightforward. Yeah.

No, I get it. I get it. To me, I'm like, what. What is this thing, you know? What is this thing that we're. We're giving birth to? What is this thing that we're watching emerge? We're just sitting by watching this thing make better art than we can.

Yeah, well, how passive shall we. Shall we be?

It's a good question. Because what once it can actually create experiences? Because I don't think we're that far away from that. Some sort of a wearable thing where you create and it has a way of manipulating.

It's like dmt, in a way. I mean, it just transports you to a whole nother reality.

It seems like that would be possible.

Well, I guess it would be endogenous, DMT being tweaked. It would be steered in a particular direction, though. And that's where the mind or the manipulation thing you just mentioned, I think, plays out. You know, who's going to decide and how's it going to be, you know, put together?

Well, that's where it gets really weird. Right. Because one thing that we found out just a couple of days ago was that YouTube has to. They're everybody. They got taken down for their political opinions. They could have their YouTube channels back.

I don't know how. I don't have sort of.

Is that what they said? I saw the news today that a couple people tried to create some new channels, and they did not. Those are taken down instantly. They're like, psych. But isn't that what the. There they said? And that was the announcement. It was something along those lines that people that were removed because of their political persuasion, that they have to reinstate their accounts.

I didn't see. To allow creators for COVID 19 and election misinformation can apply for reinstatement.

Oh.

Oh, that's interesting.

Okay. Yeah, well, but that's not. Is that all political? Is COVID 19 political? Is that. Is that what they consider political? It didn't say political for COVID 19 and for comma.

Election misinformation.

Maybe a few other things. So now they bring them back. They can. Or they can apply. They can apply. Okay. See my guy? Yeah. They're like, we'll let him apply. YouTube said Tuesday will allow previously banned accounts to apply for reinstatement. Rolling back a policy that had treated violations as permanent.

Well, it's. It's interesting to compare what's going on now with what happened in Nazi Germany.

You think it's the same?

They're very similar. Yeah. I spent a lot of time reading concentration camp literature, so that then got me interested in the development of the Nazi state.

What do you think is similar to that in today's world?

Well, an attempted coup and a period of rehabilitation. Ostracization. Yeah. And return. A triumphant return. Yeah. And then, you know, gradually replacing people with other people that are loyal to the person. It's quite similar. Murders, too. There were murders. The burning down of the parliament. Those things. Kinds of things.

What murders are you referring to?

There were two assassinations. One in, I think, early 20s, one in the 30s, late 30s, perhaps, after the Nazis took Over.

Oh, I thought you were talking about current assassination.

No, no, back in the 20s and 30s.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. That really riled up the populace.

Why is it these scary patterns? Yeah, always just. It's the same kind of thing. There's always someone at the top. No one can ever figure out any form of government that everybody accepts other than like one ruler, one president, one king. Yeah, it's kind of weird.

Are you familiar with the book St. Peter's Snow is written in the 30s before LSD was discovered? No, it's about. It's fictional book. It's a great story, but it's about a compound like LSD that the governor serves all the people in the province to see, you know, for them to have a spiritual experience. Whoa. Yeah. And instead they turn on him and kill him while they're tripping. It doesn't work out the way he hoped at all.

That's hilarious. That's hilarious.

Yeah. Yeah.

It sounds like a good book.

It's a good story.

And that was before the invention of lsd, or before the discovery, rather.

Yeah. I think must have been some knowledge of LSD before it was publicly made available.

What about ergot? Is that. How similar is that? Like when, you know, people discuss, like.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Ergot poisoning.

Contaminated grain.

Yeah. Is that similar to lsd?

Yeah, there's an LSD like compound in.

Ergot, but it's also toxic too.

Right.

It could poison you and you could die from it.

Yeah, your limbs fall off. Oh, geez. Really?

So you're tripping hard and then your hands fall off.

Wow. Yeah, that'd be fun, huh? Well, when you took drugs, did you look at your hands to see how high you were?

No. I was usually pretty aware.

Whoa.

That's what happens. Oh, my God.

No. Yeah, yeah, that's bad. Look at this.

Person's hands are about to fall. Oh, my God, their feet are falling off.

This is crazy. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, because it's.

Stay away from that.

They think there's probably a connection between that and the Salem witch trials. At least some of the behavior.

Right, right.

It's ergot poisoning.

It may have been. Yeah.

You imagine living in a time where no one's even figured out running water yet, and everybody's tripping balls and thinking that witches are real because they're all eaten, ergot infested food.

Well, it makes you wonder about the prevalence of Jewish prophets who are women. And there's a handful that are mentioned that play an important role. Sarah was prophetic. Was Able to interact with God. So there's Deborah, who was a prophet, and there were some really wonderful Jewish women prophets back then. But, you know, they don't have books named after them. For example, Isaiah or Ezekiel.

Interesting. Well, why do you think that is?

Yeah, it was a patriarchal society, you know, quite. You know, the women were relegated, but they still took an important role. They still attained prophecy, you know, so they, you know, like, you know, Sarah was felt to be a better prophet even, you know, than Abraham. I love the character of Abraham. Well, actually, you know, I've really been, you know, digging into is Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah. I studied that for, like, weeks. Yeah, very interesting. Sodom. Sodom and Gomorrah. There seems to be some archeological evidence for Sodom. You may know something along that line. But it was a town, a village, you know, which existed.

Jamie, is there something like that? So the. We'll see if we can find it.

That's. There's.

They keep finding these cities that people thought were just imaginary.

Right.

Like, that's happened multiple times.

Right, right. It's an example, I think, of the two worlds kind of, you know, coming together. Yeah. That purely spiritual and then the material one. Yeah. So the character of Lot plays a big role. Sodom was a very evil city. It was really evil, you know, and it's not really known why it was felt to be so evil. But a couple of guests come to Lot's house, and the townspeople just surround the house, demand, you know, the guests so that they will know them. And that's where the word sodomy comes from, is from those sodomites that were surrounding Lot's house, wanting the angels to come out so they could know them. And, you know, what happens is that Lot offers his two virgin daughters instead, and the townspeople say, no, we want your guests. It's a really grim story. It's an incredible detail. That's what kind of helps me understand the world that the text is describing, is the amount of detail that goes into the description of the interactions and the conversations and their movements. Yeah. So those two virgin daughters and Lot survive. They commit incest. And from those, you know, from that union was David.

King David came from that union, ultimately. And from King David comes the Messiah. So it's this very strange lineage.

Yeah. What were they writing down?

Yeah, what? Well, they were describing what was happening. Apparently, at some level, it was happening, and they were writing it down. Very strange.

What do you think the resurrection is?

The resurrection. That's a good one. I don't know. It's not really described in the Hebrew Bible. It's not. Not clearly ever, no.

Really?

Yeah. Is that surprising?

I don't know.

In the Christian Bible, it is. While there is resurrection. You know, there are some narratives of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible there. That there's Elijah resurrects or Elisha resurrects a dead child. You know, the bones of one of these prophets helps somebody else become resurrected.

Really? The bones do.

The bones do. Yeah, yeah. You know, so there are some. Your references to real resurrection and then future resurrection later on.

Also in a. In a further extraordinary event, a dead man who was thrown into the tomb of the deceased Elijah was resurrected upon contact with Elisha's bones. Whoa.

Yeah. Yeah. That Alicia was a real character.

Contact with the bones.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, he was a prophet who resurrected a dead boy. Whoa. By lying on him. Very interesting. Face to face, palm to palm, chest to chest, Lying on the dead body completely merged with that dead boy. Yeah. And he comes back to life. It's a very potent story, the Shunamites.

What do you think that story is?

What happened?

You really think that someone did that and they brought someone back to life?

Mm, well, yeah, that's how it is described. That's what happened.

So are we arrogant to assume that that would be bullshit if someone said it today? Because if that happened today and you said, oh, this person died and this guy laid on him and they came back to life.

Mm. Yeah.

Most people would say, no, that doesn't even. You can't even do that with two phones.

Yeah.

Like, you can't do that.

Well, you know Leo's father, the secret chief, the guy from the Bay Area Jungian psychologist who gave so much MDMA and other psychedelics. Yeah. So Leo sat from my ibogaine experience, and it was kind of difficult at times, and he laid on me just like Alicia laid on the dead boy in the Bible. Really? Face to face, hand to hand, stomach to stomach, leg to leg. Whoa. Yeah.

What happens when you do that, boy?

It really calms you down. It was really quite a powerful experience.

I feel like this is gonna be a meme. Yeah, I guess.

Yeah. I mean, I did that one time with somebody having a very difficult psychedelic experience.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, as best I could, but, yeah.

Try to meet him in the middle, give him a spiritual hug.

Spiritual hug? Yeah. Yeah. Quite helpful. Yeah. I'm surprised that's never come up before.

It is weird that we're attached by. You know, we constantly want people around us, but we we're always going to be detached by bodies, and we assume that that's forever. But if there comes a time where we figure out how to separate consciousness from the body and let consciousness interact without a shell, that's going to get really weird.

I think we will still have the same problems.

I think we're always going to have problems. Because if we don't have problems, then we don't work really hard to find solutions and then we don't make better stuff.

Right. It's reward and punishment a little bit.

Yeah. There's like. It seems to be a very clear incentive program that the universe has put in place.

Which is. What do you think?

Well, it's. It's not entirely based on happiness. It's not based on happiness. It's based on overall growth for everything around. It's like whoever consumes the most, it wants to reward you more. It becomes this. But what it's really working towards is making better and better and better and better things.

Yeah. Do you think that's the Antichrist? Do you think that's the Devil?

If I had a guess. I mean, we're in it, right? We're stoking the fucking coals right now. It's not us. It's going to be. Not dependent on us eventually. Right now, maybe it is.

It may be.

It might be, but it's not us. And it's going to be created by us. It's going to think it's us because it literally has all of our thoughts.

Right.

It has access to so much information instantaneously.

What happens to free will then? I mean, how do you decide?

I don't know. You know, my hope is that it enhances life. Of course. That's my hope.

Yeah.

I think that's possible. I think, first of all, it's making people diagnose themselves from illnesses that maybe they wouldn't have ever thought they had. Like, a lot of people have, like, learn things about it. It.

Can we make them happier, though?

No, see, it doesn't do that. You got to figure that out on your own, right?

Yeah. So you need to.

But can you be happy and also have it? I say yes. I say it's totally possible to interact with technology and still be happy. But you have. There's like, certain physical and spiritual requirements that you're going to have to have if you want to be happy.

The spiritual requirements? Yeah.

You've got to be really nice to people. You have to curate a good group of friends. You have to do a thing that you truly enjoy you have to always do the right thing.

Well, the two themes in the Hebrew Bible are, one is there's one God and next is the golden rule. So one God, golden rule, there's no idols, no other gods, just one God and the golden rule. So proper belief in God, the one God, and proper conduct, which is the golden rule or based on the Golden Rule.

That totally makes sense.

It makes. It's very. Yeah, very simple.

Yeah, it just makes sense that it works. It's like intuitive. You feel it if you live like that. So I go, okay, it makes sense.

Well, I think it's true too. Yeah, yeah. We have to decide if it's true for you. It's based on faith. Ultimately you choose to believe even if the objective world doesn't confirm it for you.

When you hear about these biblical depictions of fantastic events, how many of them are you attributing to a psychedelic experience? Are you always. Are you open to that or do you just not worry?

Well, yeah, they're clearly a psychedelic experience. The Book of Enoch is just fully psychedelic. I mean, at least a lot of it is. Yeah, it's a psychedelic version of the Bible in some ways. Well, it is, it is really psychedelic. I think it's from the release of endogenous dmt, it comes about. Or from drinking and having an ayahuasca like experience.

That's what you think the origin of the Book of Enoch is?

Well, it's a psychedelic experience and it could be from spontaneous endogenous release of dmt. It's a prophetic. It might be a prophetic state that's brought about. It's a visionary state. You know, clearly might have been a huge fever dream. I mean, he was really out there.

But like when he's talking about the Watchers and the, you know, angels mating with human women and creating the Nephilim, like, what do you think that is?

Yeah, well, you know, the Watchers aren't stated that aren't stated discreetly or explicitly in the Hebrew Bible. But it could be just, you know, the angels, because they never sleep. That's one of the qualities is they never sleep. So they're called watchers. Yeah. And what happened, like the Nephilim, you know, here comes the role of that three letter root system is the Nephilim. It comes from a Hebrew root, nephal, to fall or to be brought down. So the Nephilim fell. That's one way to understand them. Yeah. And then they were the giants, right?

Yes, they were the giants that consumed everything.

Yeah.

And ate their own Flesh. And they sound really bad.

Well, I think you know that what was going on at least if you're looking at the text anyway as explanation. It was because of them the world was just getting terrible. It was full of violence. So God reconsidered having created man in the first place. But Noah was simple or pure, righteous in that way and was allowed to survive.

So what do you think they were describing when they were talking about the Nephilim, when they were talking about them as giants? You think that's just a bad interpretation?

Well, they may have been giants. Physically, I do think they were giants. Yeah.

They even had an actual description of how tall they were by some measurement, right? There was some measurement, yeah.

That's probably in Enoch. It's not. Isn't narrated any specifics about the giants. There are men of renown. They were powerful.

This is the thing there's always one of the most fun Internet rabbit holes to go down is are they hiding evidence that giants existed? You know, like 30 foot tall men that lived in the mountains. And there's always been weird stories of giants all throughout history. And there's people who've supposedly discovered giant bones and then they stored them in the basement of some famous museum and they won't let anybody have access to them. Kind of fascinating. Yeah, because they do exist. Like those stories exist in history. But you wonder like, is it just a really big purpose person like that mountain guy from the Game of Thrones, you know, like an actual human being who's just really extraordinarily big or is it a different thing? Is it a giant human being?

Well, they're giants. Yeah. I mean it depends on your perspective. Like I'm trying to look at or understand anyway, you know, the giants as they're described in Hebrew Bible or else, you know, by implications. In the Book of Enoch, you know, there were men, there were giants men. Every now and then the earth became.

Corrupt and they consumed everything.

Oh yeah, yeah. That's in the Book of Enoch.

The problem is it's like if you're looking at the least charitable version of human beings in 2025, there's a lot of examples that you could point to go, well, that sounds. Guys, it sounds a lot like us.

Well, there may be another. Well, there won't be a flood that destroys all mankind. God promised there'd be no flood that would destroy all mankind. You know, that's the reason that we have the rainbow. Or that's the meaning of the rainbow is the covenant.

God made a promise that he wouldn't flood us anymore.

That he wouldn't destroy all mankind.

All mankind. With a flood.

With a flood. But that doesn't rule out, let's say, other things.

But don't you think whoever wrote these stories, don't you think that was a regional event like these great floods, like if they were happening? Let's just say that Randall Carlson's wrong and there was just one flood in the area. There has to be. If there's people from all parts of the world that all have this flood story, there has to be some truth to it.

Right?

We agree to that?

Well, I don't know. I mean I read the Hebrew Bible. That's sort of where my thinking about the events that are described in the Bible as occurring.

So you just leave it at that. Yeah, but when you, when you.

Well, we saw. I mean the important thing about. I think the important thing that I get anyway out of the Hebrew Bible is a kind of an understanding of how things are between us and between us and God. So.

Well, I don't think this contradicts that in any way. It's just fascinating. And when Randall Carlson explains it, and interestingly enough, he first had this idea. He's not the only person to have this idea, but he first had his version of this idea why he's on acid, on drugs.

That's what I was going to say, but I didn't want to say it first.

He looked, he looked out and he just had this vision like oh my God, this was water. Water made this. And it happened really quickly. It just all click with him. And then he's been chasing that rabbit ever since. And he's a fascinating guy. When you hear him talk, he's so well read in the subject and can just recall information so effortlessly. So it's, it's a really fascinating guy to listen to talk about it because he's very compelling. I think those younger Dryas impact theory folks are right.

Yeah.

I think something big happened.

I, I wonder why LSD sparked his, his genius that way.

He, I think he said that he saw it like when he looked out, he recognized what he was looking at right there. He recognized that water made that thing.

Yeah.

And then for some reason that hadn't been even thought of, but then when he showed me a bunch of these images where you have like satellite images and you could see how the earth was clearly it has the ripples of like massive amounts of water going through certain parts of the world.

Yeah. Well, it kind of raises the issue of the spiritual properties or promise of the Psychedelics, I mean, are the psychedelics spiritual entheogens? Yeah, I just don't know if they. I'm beginning to believe they more enhance. They have to have something to work on. They can only work on who you are, and I think they just work on who you are. I don't think they necessarily, you know, generate their own information that they're somehow transmitting to you. Yeah. It's the question of how psychedelics work. What are psychedelics doing? I think psychedelics or the psychedelic state will play an important role in shaping this virtual universe that seems to be taking hold. Entering.

Well, it's really weird considering that it was 1970 when most of these psychedelics were made a schedule of one subject.

Substance, controlled substance of 1970.

Yeah. Imagine that didn't happen. Imagine Nixon was not president. That didn't happen. That didn't go through. And the world evolves technologically at the same level that it has now, but also has access the entire time to all these different psychedelics legally.

I think people were tripping hard even after they were illegal.

I'm sure they were, but I bet they weren't as much. Yeah, it's dangerous. People will get put in jail. People don't want to lose their lives because they want to, you know, take a tap of acid so that they didn't do it. It's a, like a real deterrent for a lot of people that want to have a good future. They fuck that. I don't want to do drugs. But if mushrooms were legal, like, you might have made a completely different life choice a long time ago that made you happier.

Right?

Well, or not, but the option to try should be yours.

So you're pro legalization.

Yes, and it certainly shouldn't be restricted by people who haven't experienced it. That doesn't make any sense to me. Like, why would a person who has never experienced psychedelics be able to tell people who've done psychedelics that they can't do them? That's nuts. Like, you don't even know what you're talking about. You don't. You don't have any experience in this state of mind that is enhancing these people's lives that have come back from war. Like, especially like ibogaine therapy, which is. They've passed now in Texas, you know, so they're. They're allowing that to happen now for people with like severe drug addiction and PTSD and. Yeah, it's really.

It's a very interesting drug. I was wondering if you've ever done ibogaine.

No. I haven't, but it's. It's beautiful that it's being approved and used here because there's so many people that could. So many fucking people go over and have to fight overseas and come back home scrambled and need some help. And people who got hooked up on pills because they got injured.

Right.

Because something happened or whatever it is, and then all of a sudden you have a real problem. Ibogaine is one of the best ways to kick it. Like one of the absolute best ways. It's very effective.

Right.

It's like one dose is like one experience is like 80 something percent of the people never go back to whatever they were addicted to.

Yeah. I'm not sure if it's because of the drug or the belief in the drug. The guy who first started to kind of popularize ibogaine was a fellow named Howard Lotsoff. Very cool guy. Met him sort of during his late phase, but he, like, as a young man, he was addicted, you know, to heroin. And he heard about ibogaine. As I tried to just trip on and have some kicks. Yeah. He stopped and he found himself just not using opiates anymore. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. The origin stories for ibogaine are really fascinating.

So before that, people didn't know that you could use it to kick drug addiction, you know?

Not that much, no.

Well, is what is. Is drug addiction ubiquitous throughout history? Is there always been people that are addicted to drugs? It's just when is it. When does it get. When does it start getting recorded about people with addictions, actual addictions to drugs?

Yeah. I don't know. There were, you know, there was the idea of addiction in the 1800s, maybe even earlier. It was kind of an American, British idea.

Like, did they know they were alcoholics in the 1400s?

Yeah, all kinds. I mean, I can't imagine what they were addicted to in the 1400s. Scopolamine containing plants, you know, so, you know, you know the solanacea, mandrake and.

Scopolamine, Isn't that that. That dust that they blow up your nose and turn you into a vampire or a zombie, rather?

Yeah.

Is that it?

Scopolamine? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Isn't that like that?

Right, right. It's a zombie drug or something.

Yeah. Some sort of a zombie drug.

Yeah. Right.

Isn't that scopolamine?

Yeah. Well, do you know Dennis McKenna? Sure, yeah. He tells the story of scopolamine in Mexico. I kind of. I. I hope I'm right. It's. It's a great story.

He devil's Breath. That's right. Devil's medication used to treat motion sickness and post operative nausea and vomiting. But it also does something wacky.

Yeah.

Like if you take large doses of it, that. The. The devil's breath thing. So you can get it in Dramamine. That's what Dramamine is.

Right. It's an anticholinergic, like the scopolamine drugs are.

But isn't, like, the stuff that makes you less nauseous when you're seasick. Like, if you.

Isn't that like Compazine?

Does Dramamine have this stuff in it? They're not the same. It's not the same.

Yeah. You know, one is.

Sorry. Dramamine is oral antihistamine called dimethylhydrinate, while scolpamine is a different prescription. Only anticholineric medicine, particularly in patch form, used to prevent motion sickness. Okay. So they put it in a patch form to stop motion sickness, whereas Dramamine is the oral thing that stops motion sickness. Got it. Fentanyl's also in patches. That's the best way to take it. It is a weird thing, but scopolamine, you can get in a patch and it is for motion sickness.

Right.

But it's when they blow it up your nose that it's not good.

Yeah, well, it's really in. It's, you know, the active ingredient in jimson weed. Loco weed.

And what is that?

It grows in the Southwest. There's a lot growing. Or in loco weed? New Mexico. Jimson weed. Loco weed, yes. Gascopolamine. And it will cause effects. Well, one of my patients when I worked at the VA in La Jolla was an alcoholic back in the day. Took jimson weed tea, drank a lot of it, wandered off to the desert two, three days. One of those kind of stories came back. He didn't remember a thing, but he stopped using alcohol. He was. Brain damage, though. Whoa. Sorry to say. Yeah.

Brain damage from that.

From either being in the desert or from the scopolamy. Took too much. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's a crazy drug. Yeah. No, it is useful. You know, one of the.

I would rather get motion sickness.

Yeah. Yeah.

That sounds terrible.

Yeah. If you take too much. Yeah. Or you have a bad reaction to it.

Yeah.

Yeah. What do you think's going on with American health?

That's a good question. Well, I've been fascinated by these videos of pregnant women taking Tylenol to. To show Trump that they don't believe in what RFK Jr saying that somehow another anti science. When this science came from Harvard, that's where the study came from. I mean, he's not making things up. And these people are like on TikTok, they're pregnant women taking Tylenol.

Yeah, I took a lot. Well, I mean, if it weren't, you know, for Tylenol, I wouldn't be here today.

For real.

I mean, I do find it quite helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, for injuries as you get older, as a lot of people get older. Yeah, there's pain.

It's acetaminophen, though, Right. Which is really toxic, isn't it?

Well, if you take too much, it can cause.

So that's what it is. It's like a dose thing. So one is fine, one's fine.

You know, four is fine. Probably after four years, you know, can upset your stomach. You know, liver toxicity is possible, you know, but if you stay within normal limits, seems to be fine. So at least for myself. Well, and also in. In general, there haven't been recalls for, you know.

And what do you take it for if you're going to take it?

Pain.

What kind of pain are you getting in feet?

You know, I had hernia repair a while back. Oh, yeah?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I find it being a very helpful drug with no side effects.

Well, you should definitely be allowed to take it, especially you. You know, my concern is always I.

Should be allowed to take it.

People that don't understand that there's a dose that if you go over that, it's going to torture liver and you could die.

Yeah, it's all about dose. I mean, microdosing, psychedelics, completely different or in a lot, in quite a few ways than full dose or the effects are different.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Have you tried microdosing?

I have in the past, yeah.

Yeah. A while back I was having some, you know, some belly issues and I microdosed Ayahuasca for about a month. So helpful. Very helpful.

What is every day like microdosing Ayahuasca?

Well, it is a microdose, so, you know, like a mic. It was teeny.

So it just gave you just a little peek.

I wish.

Nothing.

Not really. I took more in the beginning than stretched it out. It's kind of like coffee, like sparkly coffee if you take a little too much.

Oh, yeah. What do you think would have happened if that 1970 sweeping act didn't take place? What do you think the world would? How much different? Have you ever contemplated it? How much different would the world be?

Not really.

Not at all.

Good for you.

Good for you. Why waste your time?

Well, I Mean, you know, when I tried to get my DMT study off the ground, I mean that was pretty weird. That was two years of just, you know, back breaking labor.

What year was that where it started?

I submitted the paperwork in September 1988. Give my first dose of DMT in November 1990. And I gave a lot of DMT then I went kind of crazy for the next five years.

And you were doing IV drip, slow release, right?

No, it was one big dose.

One big dose.

IV yeah, bolus. IV bolus, yeah. Yeah. So our high dose was 0.4 milligrams per kilogram. And the highest doses now being used are 0.3. Nobody has gone back up to 0.4 on a regular basis. Yeah. So people really went out there on 0.4. They were pretty scared. They weren't sure they were coming back.

They weren't sure they were coming back.

Yeah.

That is a fear. That's a fear of all psychedelic experiences. You don't think you could shut it off?

Yeah.

What is this? And is this real? Just around me all the time and I'm ignoring it.

Is this real?

Is this real?

Are you and are you ignoring it? Yeah. Boy, that's a terrible state to be in. Terrible. Excuse me. That's why. Yeah, yeah, that's why. I think, you know, DMT ought to be carefully taken.

I think everything should be carefully taken. Especially if you've got something wrong with you already. Like if you're self diagnosing with some really potent stuff like.

Right, right. Then yeah, things can really go south. Yeah, well, I mean how, who's going to decide that, you know? Based on what?

Well, no one's deciding for you with alcohol. You could go fill your bar at home with more than enough to kill yourself with.

Yeah, don't get started. Yeah, yeah, right.

Like most people can. Yeah, most. If you have like a little bar in your house, like three or four bottles of Jack Daniels, couple of this, a couple of that, you're dead. Drink all that stuff, you're dead.

Yeah. Have you ever gone through a drinking phase?

Not a bad drinking phase. I don't drink at all anymore. But I, I will still if I feel like it. I'll have a glass of wine or I'll have a margarita. I like a nice cabernet, sir.

Okay.

I just like a little red wine sometimes. But I've only had like two or three glasses of anything over the last like eight, nine months. And even like I didn't even finish the wine. It's like I've lost my Taste for it.

Mm.

I just. The. The trade off is not worth it. Like, I have a lot of fun people in my life, and I have a lot of fun without alcohol. Like, I don't necessarily think it was providing me with the. The amount of good versus the amount of negative. The negative art. Weighed it, especially physically.

Right.

It's just bad for you physically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thankfully, I didn't drink in high school, and I kind of made up for lost time in college, and I got really sick a few times. Yeah, it's rough. I just stopped drinking, like, to that point anyway.

Well, it's like people are having a good time, you know, and I get it. And if you're young and I get it, I get it. I did it too. But it's not good for you. No, it's not good for your decision making too, because then you meet the next day, you're like, oh. And if you're. If you're at that low state of being hungover, you're for sure not putting out great energy.

Yeah, well, you don't. Like, you don't want to get into that state or you do you want it channeled really, really carefully?

Yeah.

Like, I've never been part of a. Like an ultra Orthodox sect, but I think what happens in some of the ultra Orthodox Jewish sects. There's a Lubovitcher sect in Brooklyn, and the fellow who led that was Schneerson, Menachem Schneerson. And he really enjoyed drinking. He got, you know, inspired, and he wanted others to become inspired. Yeah, it has to. You know, some become a conduit. I think it kind of differs. Like with Bukowski, you can think of somebody who loves alcohol. First time he. First time he got drunk, it was a psychedelic experience, actually, in his account, he says to himself, I think I've found something very, very important.

It's kind of hilarious.

Yeah. That was never the effect alcohol had on me. I didn't. You get. You feel good for a while. Short period of time.

Yeah. We obviously all differ biologically, but some people. It hits a switch that nothing else does. Some people love it.

Yeah, well, it's. It's discounted in the text. You shouldn't drink too much. It's very smart, very clear.

But I'm not sure you shouldn't drink at all. I think you should drink if you want to drink. And, you know, you know, everybody. People get real rigid, you know, especially if you have someone around you that has a problem with alcohol or you have had a problem with Alcohol.

Yeah. Well, there's a huge homeless population in Albuquerque.

Oh, yeah.

Alcohol plays somewhat of a role.

Yeah.

I played a lot more in the Navajo reservation when I lived in Gallup. Yeah. I think people just use and abuse drugs.

There's also those things. They sound like there's not a lot of opportunity in the places you're describing.

Right, right. So if you don't. Yeah. You just want to not feel anything.

You're outside a reservation or on one or on a reservation. Yeah. I mean, I'm in the middle of the audiobook Empire of the Summer Moon for the second time. It's all about the Comanches and the war between the settlers and the Comanches. Crazy.

Oh, yeah.

And I'm in the middle of this and I'm thinking, like, have people always been this horrible and we're just sort of catching up to it now?

Well, you know, that's. That's taken into account in Cain and Abel. The Cain and Abel story.

Sure.

The first two children, one murders the other. So it started way back.

It starts way back with the bang. And you just go, God, have people.

Always been this awful from the beginning? Well, you know, there's a line in the text that he's got that, you know, God is going to destroy mankind. No, no. What happens here? I think he decides people will only live 120 years at the most because their inclination is bad from the get go. And 120 years is enough time to repent and become a better person.

Wow.

So you're given 120 years to, you know, deal with what you were born with.

But this book, this Empire of the Summer Moon, it just makes me think. When you think about what life was like for the people that lived here before the European settlers arrived and how quickly everything went away. Historically, in terms of, like the timeline, it was only a few hundred years and it was just completely gone.

Yeah, well, the Garden of Eden lost.

There was also. There was a lot of war. That's the thing that everybody likes to leave out. Like, I'm fascinated with Native American culture. I'm fascinated with this Comanche civilization that lived here. Because this book, Empire the Summer Moon, is just. It's so interesting. They were so fierce and they lived right here.

Yeah. Well, there's 29 pueblos in New Mexico. And, you know, the Pueblo are peaceful folk. They're agricultural.

Yeah.

You know, that's their. You know, that's been their heritage.

The Comanche were not. And they. One of the things this book talks about is how a lot of the Apaches were not on horseback. And they were. And that they were literally wiping out bands of Apache and forcing them to go to Mexico. It's like this has always been. There's always been. Once they've had horses, which is really like after the Spaniards got here, then once the Comanches figured out horses, they got really good at it. And they were like an impossible barrier to get through this part of the country.

Yeah. There's mostly Navajo around where I lived in Gallup. And they were nomads. They raised sheep, Spun.

Sure. And then on the eastern side, a lot more agriculture.

Right. It's just all the space, the amount.

Of time that it took for everything to get pushed. Where if you're a Native American and you. You're, you know, it's 20, 25 for you, and you're living on a reservation, you're like, whoa, what happened? You start going into the history of it. Like, how many people died? Like, what happened?

Is there a Comanche presence in Texas?

A lot of signs, I'll tell you that. A lot of the signs are like, quanah Parker Lane, he was the last Comanche chief.

Yeah, yeah. Well, they always name things after what used to be there.

Well, this is all that area. There's a lot of Comanche were in this area, but it went all the way down to Oklahoma. It was just a barrier that you couldn't get through.

Yeah, well, yeah, it was fun living in Gallup. It was mostly Navajo.

Yeah, yeah.

Very low key. They come to terms with being, you know, defeated. Part of. You know.

It's crazy though, isn't it? Well, I mean, it like had that all those things had to take place in order to get New York City again. So you have to decide, what do you like more, New York City or you want to go back in time and say, don't sell this.

Right, right.

You know, what do you like more? Do you like pizza? Do you like. Deal. Go to a nice.

I like pizza.

I do too. Like to be able to go to a nice nightclub, have a drink, go to a nice steak dinner in New York City, or give it all back. Give it all back. Go back in time, say, hey, guys, you're getting robbed. Don't sell this for whatever it was.

You can't halt progress.

How much did they buy New York for?

$27.

Really?

In jewelry? Fake jewelry even?

No.

Yeah.

Wow. What a deal.

Or $45.

What a great. What a great origin story for a villainous country. That their number one city was made through a swindle deal.

Yeah.

Where it was fake jewelry.

Well, that's why I went to medical school, was the Bronx. Well, you're from New Jersey.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's where I was born.

Yeah. Yeah. I trained in the Bronx. I. I didn't get to Jersey much.

New Jersey is a crazy place because everybody thinks of it as just being city because, like, it's right near the city, like Hackensack and Hoboken and stuff like that. But it's, like, mostly rural.

Yeah, mostly.

It's got bears all over the place in it.

There's some really nice coastal parks.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, the shore is awesome. You know, small doses. Yeah, it's nice to go down there.

Yeah. So the Bronx was great training. Yeah, yeah. It's a yeshiva. It's like the modern orthodox university in the country.

Oh, that's where it is.

Yeah. And it's the medical school of yeshiva. It's called Einstein, and it's in the Bronx. It was great training. We could do anything. We could do everything because they were, you know, it was pretty poorly staffed and sometimes in some ways in the 70s, so we had a lot of duties.

When did you first even have the idea to create a study of people doing IV dmt? Like, when did you even.

That's a long story.

It seems like a good one, though. It seems like a good one because how do you get to the point where you're asking the government to let you do this and then you get them actually to say yes?

It was the war on drugs that funded our study. Well, it all kind of came to a head with Terence McKenna. We were up in his loft one afternoon, and instead of saying DMT was a really great drug and asked for money, we said DMT was a really dangerous drug and asked for money.

I think you've told me this before.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's a good story.

It's like. Yeah, yeah.

Just want to study it.

We just want to study it. It's not good or bad.

It's clever because it's not. You're not lying.

No, no. I knew what I was talking about, too.

Yeah.

Like, I'd done neuroendocrinology research with melatonin. Circadian rhythm research. Yeah. I was a bona fide investigator. I just asked simple questions. Could we give it. What happens when you give it? DMT is really strange. The. The role has played in my life. I've been complaining for years that. Well, not complaining for years, but. I don't know. I'm more skeptical of the psychedelic experience than I Was before. Before. I don't think it's a. It's a panacea. Well, I. I think it is a panacea. That's the problem.

I think there's an issue with spiritual narcissism. That's a thing that sort of grips people when they start doing it a lot and then their identity is wrapped up in doing it a lot.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, there's a little bit of that.

That happens with folks with DMT in particular.

Is it? Yeah.

Or ayahuasca. About once a. Once a year, I get an email saying something in the subject line, you're booking my son. Yeah. And they say that they, you know, just smoked way too much dmt. They were in the hospital or in prison.

Oh, Jesus.

Yeah, they just. Well, it became messianic. Like you were like. Like you said, like you believe, you know, more than anyone. And if they just listened.

Yeah.

False messiah. Well, you know, there's some interesting stories of false messiahs. You know, at least within Judaism, Messiah has not come yet, as opposed to Christianity, where Jesus was Messiah.

And so what is. So what is Judaism's version of what happened with Jesus? He wasn't the Messiah. So he died. He didn't get resurrected.

Well, you know, he may have been resurrected, but resurrection occurs in the Hebrew Bible, so that's not unique.

Right. But what. What is their take on it?

Well, end of story, he's killed and that's it?

He don't come back?

No, not really. Not within the Hebrew Bible. That's part of the New Testament, the Christian Bible. Oh. Oh. That's one thing I wanted to bring up is Old Testament is a term that's a little disparaging in a way.

Is it?

It's been replaced by Hebrew Bible.

Interesting.

Yeah.

When was that?

It's been building.

Okay, so is this like a pronouns thing? It prefers this. It wants to be identified as a Hebrew Bible.

They prefer it.

I was saying it.

Yeah. It could be either an interest of simplicity. Yeah. You know, like, I was thinking of. Well, you know how people put in parenthetical phrases, you know, he. Him. Yeah, I was thinking of doing that for myself once. It. And.

And its.

And it would be gender neutral.

Sounds good.

Yeah. Well, that's one of the.

Or just not ever.

Come on. Yeah. So, you know, I was thinking about, you know, you know, does God have genitals? And, you know, probably not.

Doesn't seem like it's the likely way we were made, but it's probably some sort of a interdimensional psychedelic equivalent of intercourse that.

Well, it.

Higher beings have some interaction with each other.

I think it was the optimal form.

The optimal form?

Yeah. To contain a certain consciousness and do particular things. It's an ideal format, you know, it will. It was ideal. So that's, you know, why it took that particular unique shape. You know, form follows function, things like that.

Right, Yeah, I got confused there. What are you referring to?

Oh, well, you know, the specific. Well, I think you were. I was referring to man being made in God's image. Okay. Yeah. With. With genitals.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. But I think it, you know, it. In the animal kingdom, things evolve to do certain things. They have form and function which, you know, combined determine their range of behaviors. So I think in humans, it's sort of was the optimal form as well. Same way, perhaps.

What do you think happened when human beings had this doubling of the brain size over a period of 2 million years? What do you think that was?

Is that true, supposedly? Yeah, I think so. I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Sounds like a crazy little expansion.

Yeah. So, I mean, you can look at it, you know, evolutionarily, you know, biologically, you know, theologically. You can look at it too, as, you know, finally being endowed with, you know, a human spirit. You know, there's multiple spirits, you know, and even in the Hebrew Bible, there's multiple spirits. There's.

So as the brain expands in size, you develop a human spirit?

I think so, yeah. That human spirit allows for divine communication. At least that's how the theory goes. It's the, you know, the breathing in of the soul to man by God, and it's in man's creation. Right.

So ultimately we're going to get to be a gray. We're going to have a big giant head, and we're not going to need to talk because we're going to do it telepathically.

Yeah, okay. You know, telepathically. You think people being able to read the mind is a good thing? It will be a good thing. Once that happens, or if it can happen.

I think it will be a thing. And like all things, it will have good aspects to it and bad aspects to it. I think reading people's minds will be very enlightening. You're gonna learn a lot more about how people actually think versus what they project. You're gonna. You're gonna be able to see people's motivation. You're going to be able to sell lies. And we might even have a universal visual language that they develop. We might all Be able to adopt it really quickly, and kids probably will jump right on board, and they'll be literate in it before we are.

What about psychological ambivalence? You know, loving someone one moment, hating them another. Well, that's, you know, what happens if you tune in to one at one moment, you're convinced that's solely the case. If you're ambivalent on. Ambivalence is a real thing. And you have an unconscious, too, where things are kind of stored away psychologically.

Yeah. I'm not saying it's good.

It might be hard.

I don't know if there is some way where we link up and we can communicate completely telepathically. It could be really weird.

Yeah.

But it will be a thing. That's my point. It's like. It's. It's. We're gonna have to navigate it like we navigated making books, like we navigated everything else. Like, if we want to stay alive, we've got to recognize that there's some shit going down. There's some shit going down right now and.

Right. Well, there's free will, isn't there? You know, forever, you still. All these decisions that you have to make. Well, I mean. I mean, in this.

Or is there free will? The determinism? People don't think there is.

Well, it feels as if there's free will.

Yeah. I feel like we respect free will, so it's probably a real thing we expect. We respect a person who's, like, been a drunk their whole life, who puts down the bottle and starts running around the block. We respect that because it's a real thing. Free will. There's part of free will. It's like there's something there.

Mm.

There's something there. You make choices. You don't know why you make choices, but you make choices. That's the thing. There's a lot of factors in why you make choices. And it's not 100% determinism, and it's not 100% free will. It's kind of. There's a soup. There's a very.

Yeah, well, to the extent.

Soup.

You know, to the extent that you can exert free will, you know, you have to kind of do the best you can. Yeah.

You got to do your best you can.

Yeah. And even if we're uploaded into the cloud, let's say. I mean, how's that time gonna be spent?

Good question. What is. I mean, are we even capable of imagining what we're talking about? Are we so crude in our understanding of what's to come in the next five, 10, whatever years that we're just, we're just guessing, we're silly. Or like writing a bad science fiction movie from the 1980s about the year 2000. You remember those? Like space 1999.

Well, you know, it's, it's the one God and the golden rule. I think that's what we'll be, you know, left with ethically, you know, what the basis of our decision making will be.

I've always wondered if we're in a race to avoid catastrophe and that's one of the reasons why we're so like hyper focused on accelerating with technology is that we kind of always recognize that this species is on a race to avoid natural catastrophe. Like there's just so much potential for natural catastrophe, whether it's super volcanoes, asteroid impacts, so many different things have like almost wiped us out to nothing. That it's like, might be a part of the reason why there's this like mad rush to make better and better and better technology. It's almost like a, a game. Like can you get to the final boss? Can your species survive and figure out a way to stop the rock from space?

Yeah, you know, the footsteps of the Messiah, that's what that's called. I mean you want to be at the round, you want to be around at the time of the Messiah, but not really because things have to get so bad. That's one model of the end of times.

There's also a lot of people that don't recognize that being a human being on Earth is being a passenger in an organic spaceship going through the universe. Like there, there are real celestial events that they have to keep their eyes on which you know, you haven't experienced in your life. So like, but no, there's this giant rocks that killed the dinosaurs and they're still floating around. Same size rocks.

Yeah, I know.

And they can't stop them. They don't know how to stop them yet. Like, don't listen to any of these people. Oh, if we saw it, we would do this and do that and sleep tight at night. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. If there was some gigantic state sized chunk of metal flying through the galaxy, we would.

Yeah, it might wipe out all of humanity.

Yeah, it might wipe out all of humanity.

Yeah.

And it probably came really close to doing that a few times in history. That's what I think.

Yeah.

It's the only thing that makes sense. If we know that we, we're hit all the time, we, we all accept the fact that the Yucatan impact, that's what killed the dinosaurs. And there's been a bunch of them throughout history. We've seen. We find craters everywhere. Everyone knows that. We've been hit multiple times. The Tunguska thing in Russia.

Yeah.

Where it flattened this enormous patch of forest. It's still flattened.

Have you been watching season two of Graham Hancock's Ancient Apocalypse?

I didn't watch season two yet. Yeah, No, I watched season one, though.

Yeah.

What's season two about? It's a. It's like the Americas, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Americas are crazy.

Yeah. I like Graham.

He's the best.

Yeah, he's hard working.

Oh, he loves what he does, man. He really, really does. And the fact that he's finally been over all these attacks, he's finally been vindicated and people are starting to accept more and more things are probably a lot older than. Than we want to believe. And especially after Gobekli Tepe, that kind of like, that popped the cork on everything. And everyone's like, okay, well this has definitely been buried for 11,000 years. So this is kind of crazy. We didn't know they could do that back then.

Well, before coming out here, I asked ChatGPT, you know, how old are some of the stories written down in the text in the Hebrew Bible? And at Least according to ChatGPT is 10,000 years ago. You know, so.

Oh, my God.

You know, something may have happened at that time that.

That makes sense.

Yeah, That's a very interesting finding. Oh, you know, Sodom and Gomorrah. That's a great story. I'm working on this translation of the Hebrew Bible. I've got a substack now. I've been putting out things every week. A chapter a week.

Yeah.

On. On my translation of the Bible. It's like a thousand pages right now of commentary about the language and, you know, the grammar, you know, the meaning that. What's called the plain meaning of the text. Like there was a Noah with three sons and went on the ark. Yeah. So, yeah, that's like my big project, but I'd like to do a smaller one about Sodom and Gomorrah and the figure of lot. I think that's a really incredible story. I've spent about maybe two to three weeks looking at that, you know, like, you know, a lot. His virgin daughters, the men circling his house, they're asking to know him. He ends up, you know, in a cave with his two virgin daughters. They get him drunk and he sleeps with them, or, you know, they lie with Him. Anyway. Yeah. And out come two kids at a certain point, and they become very important, you know, later on. They're the beginning of the messianic line, you know, so it's a very intricate, you know, tale with a very. I think you can make some cool conversations between some of the main personages in the. In the narrative.

You know, there's a book called the Red Tent.

Can I ask you about the lot? Like, how. How old was that story?

Wow, that must be. Well, it's an explanation of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is the. You know, around the Dead Sea, there was a conflagration of some sort there. Have any of your guests spoken about Sodom? You know, what actually happened around the Dead Sea? It was quite catastrophic.

Well, tell us, tell us.

Well, the story of Mevlat. Yeah, I mean, there was fire and sulfur pouring down on Sodom and Gomorrah. It was the end of the plain. So that's the southern part of the Dead Sea. You know, it is a Dead Sea because of its high salt concentrations. It was kind of, you know, closed off from the coast. So it's at least a description of, you know, what took place.

What do you think it's describing?

Well, I mean, you know, my perspective is volcano. It actually happened. Yeah, but people think of volcano, some kind of volcanic activity.

We're totally saying sounds like a volcano.

Right.

And we know that there's been a bunch of those that have almost wiped people out entirely at certain points. The Toba volcano, you know that one? No, we got down to. I think the. We've looked this up before, but I want to say they think we might have gotten down to just a few thousand people.

On the whole planet.

Like, 70,000 years ago, 70,000 years ago, there was a massive super volcano that went off, and it, you know, plunged the Earth probably into nuclear winter. And they think that our genetic line, entirely of the human race on Earth, came from this few thousand survivors.

Joe, can we take a.

Yes. Yes. We'll be right back, folks.

Seriously. We're back. Yeah. So we were talking about the alternative.

Yes. Explain what you mean by that. Like, that these things are happening in an alternative dimension, right?

Yeah, I think they're happening in an alternative dimension. Like when you smoke dmt, you return to the same place each time. So there seems to be some reality, some DMT world that people enter into. And it's. One of my volunteers, one of the subjects in the DMT research, he got a big dose one day, and then a few months later, he got another big dose, and he said that it was very interesting. He said, things have just continued apace since his first exposure and his first entrance into that state. And things had gone on in the meantime, and he re entered that world. So in that way, there's, you know, in that same manner, the world of the Hebrew Bible early on. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah, the Tower of Babel, all that took place at some different level of reality, which gradually made its way into ours. And once it made its way into ours, there's the archeological evidence, the first Temple, second Temple, and so on. So there is a transition between, you know, our world and that world kind of merged. But in the. In the beginning, it was an alternative dimension.

The same God, I think, but. But, you know, different dimensions.

So did. Is this your own personal conclusion?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, when I was on the show last time, you're asking if I believe those things took place. And my answer then was, I, you know, I take it as if it were true. And then I started to think, you know, how I would do that? You know, like, in what world would that be true? It'd be a different world. Right.

I feel like I've always believed that they were trying to record something. I just didn't always trust that human beings were completely honest with their recollection of events, so that there's something they were trying to write down. But was it really coming from. From God? Was it. Are these accurate events? What. What exactly happened with Noah and the ark? What really happened?

Well, you know, three stories. You know, three, you know, three levels. You know, two of each. Then seven, if you know, one pair or seven pairs of birds. Well, of every living thing.

Yeah, but like, how's he feeding them? Animals eat other animals. The whole thing's nuts. You would need a lot more rabbits. You need so many animals to keep just the lions alive.

Right.

It doesn't make any sense. How's he getting them all from all over the world and do a stupid boat?

Yeah.

There's so many things that are wrong, but the story of him being told that some shit is about to go down and you probably should, you know, find some way to restart your version of civilization somewhere. There's probably multiple. Like the flood myth that we, you know, whatever you want to call it, the stories of the flood that you get from Epic of Gilgamesh, that you get from Noah, there's not. It's not just those. There's many, many different cultures all throughout history have a flood story.

Right.

So it's probably likely that some crazy shit went down.

You know, there may have been, you know, there most likely was a flood. Yeah. You know, so what do you learn from it? You know, like, how do you do better or on what basis do you rebuild? You know, so I think there's new, different models. You know, the biblical one is interesting because, you know, it's a, it's, you know, lineage, you know, from Adam to Noah, right to Abraham, you know, Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and now.

So when you talk about things happening in an alternative dimension, like, is that what you think like the birth of mankind is as well, like Adam and Eve?

Well, I mean, pull this microphone up. Okay. I'm sorry.

It just has an impact.

Yeah. Well, you know, the creation story, a man was created on 6th day, right along with mammals. It's a cool story. It's, you know, stages, you know, like, you know, people are say, well, you know, seven days. That's unlikely. Like that creation took place seven times 24, I don't know, 148, something like that. 148 hours. 168 hours. The whole world was, you know, was created. But it's broken into stages, you know, seven stages, you know, which is one of the translations of the word that is usually translated day. It could also mean stage. It's a word yom. It can mean either a day, period of time, a stage. So that's, you know, that's the answer that makes sense to me about the seven day story of creation. Yeah. So, you know, man was created on the sixth day and then was placed in the Garden of Eden. And you know, those events took place. You know, the stories themselves are just, you know, they're written down and so people have been studying them for thousands of years.

Who do you think Lilith was?

No mention of Lilith in the Bible. Really? Yeah.

Where's the story of Lilith emerge?

Well, it comes from what's called Midrash.

What's that?

Comes from a root. D R Sh. It means to, I don't know, explicate, to expand upon, to investigate, you know. So what happened after Adam and Eve sinned? You know, did they have sex again? And they do have it. Cain and Abel and the ensuing stories. And then there's a third son, Shait, who is the inheritor of Adam's good, of his traits, his good traits and bad traits. He's like God as well. So there's a distinct lineage that is spelled out. Lilith was a demon that she slept with Adam after the sin of eating from the fruit of Knowledge of good and evil. So there's a story that built up around the biblical story that they were separated. Adam and Eve were separated for a long period. So who was Adam sleeping with? Well, it was expanded in the midrash that there was a demoness named Lilith who slept with Adam. For me, I don't know, a couple hundred years. And then Adam and Eve reconciled. Whoa. Yeah. So Lilith is. She doesn't appear in the text of the Hebrew Bible as such, you know, so nobody knows. You know, there's a mythology that's grown around Lilith as well.

Well, isn't there some festival, some. Some music festival called the Lilith Festival?

Lilith Fair.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. That's named after, you know, the spirit that or the, you know, demoness.

You sure it wasn't, like, a lady named Lilith that she came up with it?

Are we sure it was her neighbor, Lilith Smith?

So what was the reason why the Book of Enoch, it was not included in all the versions of the Bible by a decision of how many people it was a few rabbis.

Right. Well, the canon you're talking about, there's 22 books in the Hebrew Bible, Right.

There's certain versions of it that they found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, like the Book of Isaiah that's identical verbatim, which is really amazing.

Right? Yeah, yeah. And there's Aramaic translations. Aramaic was the spoken language back then, back there.

But the Book of Enoch was a part of all that. The stuff they found in Qumran, too.

Right. I'm just not. Well, I tried learning about the Book of Enoch. Yeah, yeah. There's only an Ethiopic version, right?

Yes.

Yeah. Well, have you looked into the Book of Enoch?

Yeah, well, I told you, I've been listening to it on audio. But Ethiopia is a fascinating place. Yeah, right, because, like, that's the place where Graham Hancock started getting interested in the possibility that they have the Ark of the Covenant.

Right. There's supposed to be a tribe in.

Ethiopia, and they all get counteracts. And the people that are protecting it, they only live, like, a certain amount of time and then they die. Yeah, that's true. If any of that's true, if any of that's true, if somehow or another there's people on Earth today that have an Ark of the Covenant. How could you keep that a secret? That's the craziest thing to be even allowed to keep a secret.

Yeah, it's one of those things you can't even imagine, you know, can you.

Imagine if they open up a door and like, there it is. Oh, like. Like from Raiders of the Lost Ark. Melts your face off.

Well, it would contain the Ten Commandments, yo. Yeah, yeah. The original ten. Well, yeah, the original Ten Commandments.

Well, what do you think these guys are guarding in Ethiopia where they're getting cataracts? Because when Graham describes it, you're like, if you're telling me the truth, and I think you are, because you've never lied to me yet you're telling me the truth. These people that are guarding this place that supposedly has the Ark of the Covenant are all getting, like, radiation sickness.

Yeah, well, the Ark is hidden. I mean, that's what is said in the Hebrew Bible, is that it's hidden. So we just don't know what happened. At least according to the Hebrew Bible, it still has been. It hasn't been discovered yet. So it might be in Ethiopia. God only knows.

It's just the craziest story ever. Because if it is true, if this one church has the Ark of the Covenant, like, hey, guys, let us get a look at it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I. I hope they got it right.

Yeah, well, they should definitely make sure someone doesn't steal it, you know?

Yeah, well, the, you know, the Ten Commandments, you know, that's appearing in. In the. I'm in public schools now.

Yeah. I had a guy, James Talarico, on to talk about that, actually, who's a very staunch Christian and thinks it's a terrible idea to have the Ten Commandments in classrooms. You're indoctrinating children because it's like, a way to drive them away from Christianity. You're forcing it on them. He's like, we shouldn't do it that way and certainly not do it in a way where you're only going to have the Ten Commandments, and you're not going to have anything about Buddhism, and you're not going to have anything about Muslim Islam. You're not going to have anything about baptism or what, you know, fill in the blank. Mormons, fill in the blank. You know, Scientologists, you'd have to have everything. You have to just keep going forever and ever and ever.

And then splinter groups.

Yes. So he's got a good rd. I mean, I think he's right. I think they should stop doing that. If you want to teach it in a classroom that someone applies for, that's great. But, like, putting it on the wall of every class seems kind of insane. Apparently he was saying that it's just a couple of different gentlemen in Texas that are like, super wealthy and super Christian and they want this to be like a theocracy. Unfortunately. Where have we heard that before?

In the Middle Ages.

Yeah, baby. I just think it's what happens when people get a shit ton of money and a shit ton of power and they start getting older. They need a sport, they need to take up a. Take up a game that fascinates them instead of trying to like, global world dominate, you know, it's just people get to positions of extreme wealth and power and they just want to manipulate things and make more money and they want to do it forever and ever and ever and they can't. You only live to be 120 if everything goes perfect. Maybe today you might be able to. If you can make it to, like, if you make it to 90 today, I bet you could live a lot.

Longer if you live to 90.

Yeah. Like, if you can.

I've. I've lived way older than, you know, than my father and. Yes. So I think, yeah, I think I'll live a while longer. I. I married a young woman.

That helps.

I need to stay, you know, fit.

You know, that actually does help.

Live a longer time. Yeah.

There's been studies that show that men that date younger women, they have more active lives, they feel healthier.

I'm more active.

Yeah. But it could be those are the kind of women that are interested in dating that kind of guy.

I just don't know. Is that very. Yeah, I don't know how it works.

The kind of guys that are more active and healthy would also be the kind of guys that would want to date younger women. So as a bias sample group.

Right. Yeah. One of my analysts said it was a mystery. She had no idea. And she had been seeing patients for like 50 years. She said, no, I have no idea. It's a mystery.

Interesting.

And why people get together.

Yeah, well, think whatever makes you happy.

Well, that's it, you know, that's, you know, that's the book of Ecclesiastes. It's about, you know, it's emptiness. Emptiness. It's all emptiness, you know, but at the end, you should make your wife happy and eat and drink and be merry while you're alive. What do you think of that?

It's good advice, solid advice. If I was living 2,000 years ago, I'd probably say the same thing, right?

Yeah.

There's no medicine, you have no antibiotics, there's no orthopedic surgeons that are going to put your knee back together again. Yeah, I'd say that too.

Yeah. It is bad when you have one doctor for every organ system. Yeah.

They didn't know anything. That's nuts. I mean, how many people died of infections back then? Just that alone. That's extended life. Like, just antibiotics alone. It's extended lifespan so much because so many people that would have probably died got healthy again. So many people. And those people can maybe figure out some new way to bridge this gap and stop these viruses and stop this, stop that. And then we just keep getting better at it until we eventually get to the point where we're living as long as Noah.

600 years for Noah.

And that's probably when God gets fed up. He's like, enough. Well, you fucking animals. Maybe that's like, maybe we're gonna repeat that process. Maybe we're gonna, like, figure out some awesome new peptides, keep you alive for 500 years, and everyone's gonna be addict to everybody else, and then eventually, God will just have to drown us again.

I'm in college. We had to read a book about the funeral home industry in Southern California. I read this little novel by Aldous Huxley, Many a summer Dies a Swan. It's about these people who live forever by eating the intestinal microbiome of carp. Oh, wow. And they become like carp in a lot of ways. And I tried to get into one of these funeral homes, like, you know, asked to be. I asked to interview them to see, you know, what people, you know, did after death and never heard back. One of those, you know, crazy college stories about looking into the funeral home industry. Well, you know, which is a. I don't know. That's pretty big.

It's a weird business. You got the business of taking care of bodies, and you don't really have a lot of options.

Right.

Like, you're not. Like, if someone dies, I don't think you're. Are you just allowed to let them fertilize some plants? Are you allowed to do that?

Yeah, you know, like, do you have.

To put them in formaldehyde? Do you have to do all that stuff?

I mean, I. You did an autopsy on a cadaver, you know, back in the day. Open people up and look at them. Well, then there's, you know, surgery, which you go through as well. Right.

That was an odd pause. I was like, where are we going with this conversation?

I know. Well, I love the Hebrew Bible. Yes. I spent all my time in it. Just the weirdest thing there is. Like, do you.

Do you have any idea why the Book of Enoch was supposedly excluded from being included in the Bible?

Yeah.

Seems to Be some debate about that, right?

Yeah, yeah, I know there's, you know, there was a. I think the Dead Sea scroll community used the Book of Enoch. It was like their Bible, right? Yeah. Very strange. Well, the thing about the Book of Enoch is really, you know, very psychedelic, but there's not that much, like, I don't think there's much in it as far as, you know, Judaism itself. I mean, it's that discussion of the righteous being rewarded and the evil being punished, the evil people being punished. But you don't really learn what it means to be righteous, and you don't really learn from the Book of Enoch what is meant to be evil. You don't know how. Yeah, there isn't all that much information, I don't think, in there. It's historical and it's really weird astronomical stuff, too. But I think it may not have been included in the text in the Hebrew Bible because there weren't any ethical teachings that could be had by reading it.

No ethical teachings that could be had by reading it. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, I mean, one of the essences of Judaism, I think, is ethical monotheism. That's where there's the Golden Rule and there's one God. So there's ethical monotheism. Yeah. So where were we?

Where were we?

Yeah, just.

Just then we were talking about the Hebrew Bible and we were talking about. What else are we talking about? We were talking why the Book of Enoch was in the Dead Sea Scrolls community, but it wasn't accepted later.

Right.

But some parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls, like the Book of Isaiah.

Right.

That was the one that was found to be the oldest version of it. That was verbatim.

Yeah, well, yeah, I think it's just, you know, it was too psychedelic and. It was a.

Too psychedelic.

Yeah, I think, I mean, at least in Ezekiel, let's say, which is comparable, you know, Daniel, too, is quite psychedelic. You know, those were some ethical, you know, some historical narrative.

But imagine making that call. Imagine making that call. How long ago?

Right.

A long time ago to take that story out. I'm not buying this one, guys. Leave it out. Meanwhile, that's the one that's the most compelling to me.

Yeah. Yeah. So what. What. What do you like about the Book of Enoch?

It was just so bizarre.

It's very.

Because it makes the whole thing. It's like, oh, okay, now I get the big story. The whole story is crazy. And the origin story, the. The Book of Enoch, like, as it starts, like in the very first chapter, you're like, wait, what's going on? Fornication with humans and the race of giants. Like what? What are you guys describing? Yeah, things coming down and Watchers. What are you guys talking about? Like, what was this? This is so left field of the rest of the Bible. But it was included in the same like those clay pots that they found in Qumran. It was in there too. Just you don't know what to believe. Like what happened there.

Well, yeah, you might not know what to believe, but you can also believe in one way of doing it as well.

One way of doing it.

As long as you don't get doctrinaire, right? Yeah.

Okay.

You just do it yourself.

Well, when I think about it, I just go blank. I just try to imagine like what are they even describing? Like what, what does any of that stuff mean? It just seems so alien. There's Watchers and they mate with humans and they create the Nephilim, giants that consume and destroy the earth. Like just imagine if that was left into the Bible and they taught that in school. You'd be like, what happened? Yeah, it sounds completely crazy.

Yeah, it was a mistake. Yeah. That's why there was the flood is, you know, the works was filled with the violence of the Nephilim. I believe it the reason of the flood.

I mean look, if we're this size, you know, and we have so many problems with each other, imagine something that's like triple the size of us, that's running around with us, just picking us up and beating us over the head with each other.

Yeah. You know, one of the figures in the text is Og and Sichon, who are the kings of the Amorites in the land before the Hebrews take over. And they were giants that they are believed to be giants. They talk about how the bed of one of the these kings, Ogre Sihon, was like nine feet long or something. Thirteen feet long. Yeah. You know, so there were a couple still, still alive back then.

So do you think those are real humans?

They were giants.

So you think they were real giants? For sure. Are you 100% convinced that giants roamed the earth? Like there was 15 foot tall humans.

Monstrous humans, and may not have occurred. Well, that's the reason I think there's some alternative universe that says real as this one, which was the site of a lot of stories.

So when you say there's an alternative universe that's as real as this one, do you think we dance back and forth between possible universes? Do you think we're always in the constant same universe? Or do you think, like, this concept of parallel universes or alternative universes, that these. You go back and forth between these now?

No, I think they're pretty well separated, don't you?

So you think that the world was a different place back then and that the doorway to go back and forth was easier to traverse.

It was one directional. And it kind of was one level of reality kind of, you know, segueing into this one.

So do you think these things involved psychedelics while they were doing this, while they were writing all this stuff down?

No.

No.

Well, I think it involved being attuned to a level, you know, that level of reality. Yeah. Which would be mediated through DMT in some ways. The visions would be mediated through dmt.

Yeah. You wonder if it's possible, too, if you're living in a world like we. We can't even imagine living in a world. We're not environmentally poisoned like we are. We're constantly surrounded by wifi and 5G, and we're eating microplastics and glyphosate is on every vegetable, and we're like, in a swoop, we're in a soup of toxins. We can't even imagine what it's like to not have that and to not be burdened down by electronics and all the different things that people like. They're probably very different back then.

Just.

Just human beings in general. I bet. They're probably very different in a lot of ways.

Yeah. That's one of the reasons I like living in Gallup. It was really kind of.

Simple.

Simple?

Yeah.

Yeah. There wasn't much WI fi in there.

Yeah.

It was just.

Simple's good for you. It's not perfect, though. You feel like sometimes cities are fun.

Yeah. Yeah. You called me when I was living in Gallup and you said to me, why are you living there?

You're telling me there was nothing around you? I was like, why are you living where there's nothing around you? That's crazy.

Yeah.

Get out of there.

It was my monk phase. Well, had to go through it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with going through phases, but I think ultimately people like to be around people.

Just.

But it's. You know, there's a point where there's too many people, and then people become like a nuisance to you. You're stuck on the 405 and like, oh, my God, look at this traffic. Where are all these people going? And, you know, then people become a burden. There's a bird. There's a nice balance to be had somewhere in there. I don't think it's like living in the woods by yourself. I think that's the dream. Is a weird dream.

Yeah. It was inspired by essence, so. Oh, yeah.

The problem is there's.

You're.

If you're in the woods by yourself, there's things out there that want to eat you.

Yeah.

If you're by yourself, they're going to know where you are all the time.

Yeah. Well, once I was cross country skiing up in the mountains behind Gallop and I was being tracked by a mountain lion.

Of course you were.

Seemed like it was.

Of course you were.

I was going across the.

Probably thinking about taking you out.

Yeah.

Probably thinking about taking you out.

At a certain point, I turned around. Yeah.

Yeah. Because if you look like you're out of breath, you look like you're tired. Like if they think you're limping or something like that, oh, my God. They can't help themselves.

And the woods are really getting dark around me, so.

Oh, not good.

It's good. It was time to turn around.

Not good. Yeah, they're fucking terrifying. And people have this romantic idea of what a mountain lion is. You say that until it kills your dog in front of you. Listen to me. Those are dangerous predators. California is the most ridiculous way of handling it.

Yeah.

They have to hire people to go kill them. And when they find mountain lions. Yeah. And when they do, they find that 50% of their diet is pets. You've got something that 100% eats your dogs and cats, and you're allowing it to live in the woods near your house. Like this is kooky.

Yeah.

Plenty of them in the mountains, kids. Okay.

Yeah. Coyotes are into pets.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. If a cat is lost for more than a few days around our neighborhood, that's pretty much it.

If you just let your cat out, you're basically like saying you're gonna get eaten. Yeah, I know it. You probably don't know it because you're just a cat, but you're gonna get eaten.

That's why you put them out.

They're everywhere now, too. Coyotes are in every single city in the United States.

Yeah. You've seen coyotes?

Oh, fuck. Yeah.

You know they lope across the road. Yeah.

I've had coyote problems where they broke into my chicken coop and killed all my chickens.

Yeah, coyotes do that.

They're smart, too, man. They're fascinating.

Yeah.

They trick dogs into chasing after them and then they all ambush them. Yeah, they're very clever.

Clever. Yeah. You used to watch the you know, Wile E. Coyote, he was an idiot.

That was so dumb.

Yeah, there's a lot of roadrunners. I know.

Crazy. The idea that the roadrunner would be smarter than a coyote. Coyotes are so clever. Have you ever read Dan Flores book Coyote America?

No.

It's really good. It's about the origin of the coyote and why the coyote is everywhere now. And part of it is because of the persecution by the gray wolf. So the gray wolves don't mate with the coyotes, but the red wolves do, the gray wolves. So they're from a totally different line. So they just kill the coyotes because the coyote is just a small wolf. And so what they figured out is that when a coyote dies and like when they yell out, it's like roll call. And if someone's missing, the females produce more pups, so they have extra pups and then they spread. So they extra pups and then they move to a new place. And by doing. Just because they were persecuted by the gray wolves, when they started getting persecuted by humans, you know, like. So human beings extradited wolves, they killed them all off, except for a few in the upper northern parts of the United States with strychnine. But they couldn't do it with coyotes. The coyotes just kept moving around and separate. They just went to different spots.

They're very smart.

They're super smart. They're in New York City right now. Right now, there's coyotes in Central park in New York City. Little wild wolves running around Central Park. Coexistent, just big enough where they don't look threatening. They're just a clever little player of nature's game.

Wiley Coyote.

It's a really good book, though. But it's also about, like, what's called Coyote America.

You know, I could have sworn John McPhee wrote about coyotes. Remember John McPhee out in that country? His Alaska book?

Well, I'm sure he probably wrote a book about coyotes too. This is just different. This is about the origins of, you know, coyote mythology amongst Native Americans and that there's thought to be a trickster. And it's. He just. It is a uniquely American animal. You know, it adapts.

Yeah, well, that's too bad. It's eating your chickens.

Shit happens.

Sorry to hear that.

Yeah, well, it happened. They got. They got. They killed them. All my chickens in California, they got into to a chicken coop and they killed like nine of them. So the chicken coop got damaged because of the fire, so we had to get another chicken coop set up. And so when we're Set up the other chicken coop. It was one that you just buy from, like a pet store, and it wasn't that durable. And the coyotes figured out how to open it and they just fucked up these chickens. Ooh, it's a mess, man. Yeah, it was just all feathers.

Feathers and blood.

Yeah, it was horrible. They just went on up. They just killed them all. They killed them all. They killed like nine of them. But, you know, that's the fucking game they play. And I love that they exist. I'm a fan of coyotes. I like hearing them at night. I think they're cool. I don't want them to eat my dog, though. You know, it's like. And you know, they're not going to listen, you know, like, hey, don't eat my dog. And we're cool. No, they're. They're playing a game. It's like, wait till you turn your back and they'll attack your toddler.

I. I think besides, you know, movie trailers, the things I watch on YouTube, most are animals killing other animals. You know, bear. Why do you do that versus a muskrat, you know? Yeah, yeah. Grease stories. It's pretty primal. It is, yeah. I like that.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. These people were in India and they were on some sort of a park drive, you know, one of the wildlife parks, and they watched a tiger take out an animal right in front of them. A tiger took out a deer right in front of them. And they filmed it.

Like, what's. What's cool? Well, the ones I like are the warthogs.

Oh, they're so weird looking, aren't they?

Yeah, they're vicious. They're huge.

They look like a Star wars character. You don't even look like a real animal.

Yeah, it's unkosher pork. Interesting thing.

It's unkosher.

Unkosher pigs. Yeah, yeah. The things which are kosher, chew cut, and have completely split and separate hooves. Right, yeah. Those are the main criteria for mammals.

Do you think that's because of ancient diseases? Because this makes sense that we know that trichinosis, a lot of that comes from pork.

Right. It always seemed to me pigs are dirty animals. But I had a friend who was insistent that given the choice, pigs are very clean animals. So it's hard to say about the filth aspect of it.

That's domestic pigs. Wild pigs are filthy animals.

Wild pigs?

Yeah, all of them, 100% of them. There's a difference between, like, a domestic pig. This is where it gets really weird. You take a domestic pig and you let it loose in the wild, and six weeks later, it starts to morph and it starts to extend it. The snout. Its tusks grow longer, its fur gets thicker. It becomes like a wild pig. That's kooky.

Yeah. I guess the primitive or the early stages are really strong.

Yeah. Quickly. It happens quickly, like within a month or two. It's really weird.

Yeah. I wonder how that works. Must be some endocrine thing. Must be their, you know, gonads and their pituitary and their hypothalamus.

It's a really good question because, like, what would let them hit that switch and realize, okay, I'm on my own now. They're not just bringing me my food every day. Fuck, time to get hard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it isn't a conscious decision on their part. Yeah. It seems like it just takes over.

But I was thinking, like, if that animal is not, like, the Muslims don't eat it and the Jews don't eat it. And you would imagine at a time where food was really important and if you can get pork, that was way better than not having any meat and you can't eat it because of your religion. To me, it seems like I bet at least some of the origin of that was there was a disease that was going through these people that were eating pigs.

It's hard to say. You know, the ones that are kosher are the ones which were burnt up in sacrifice as well. You know, there are sheep and cattle.

Pull that microphone up to your mouth.

Sheep and cattle and goats. Right. Yeah. Those were the sacrificial animals, the ones that were burnt on the altar and also the ones that were eaten.

But do you think that. Why do you think pork was excluded from both Judaism and also from Islam, consumption of pork?

Yeah, it didn't meet the criteria.

The criteria for what?

For a kosher meat, a cheese cud and needs to have a completely separated, completely split hoof.

No, I get that, but I mean, why. Why did they come up with that rule? Oh, I think it seems to be that those are the animals that have the most amount of trichinosis. Unless you're eating bears. So I don't know if they're eating any bears back then. Probably not. They're probably eating a lot of deer species. And if you tried to eat that kind of wild pork back then and you didn't cook it correctly, you probably get violently ill or die.

Well, you know, there are causes. You know, there are reasons for some of the precepts in the text. It must be Right, Yeah. That are medically established.

Yeah. Like shellfish. Probably has to do with Red Tide.

Right. Well, bottom dwellers.

Bottom dwellers, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting when you. You try to decipher, like, why do they have that stuff in there? Well, kind of makes sense. Pork. Pigs rather do carry a bunch of diseases that can wreck human beings.

Yeah. Well, the person then making the dietary laws knew that. You think that's the reason they wrote those dietary laws?

Yeah. Well, they didn't have meat thermometers back then.

Right.

So I bet a lot of people ate some medium rare pork. Pork or rare pork even, and got violently ill. Yeah, violently ill. Like trichinosis apparently is brutal and you have it for life so that, like, if somebody eats you, they get trichinosis. Unless they cook it.

Yeah. I had C. Diff some years ago. I even wrote a book about.

About what is C. Diff?

It's potentially fatal diarrhea. Oh, no, it was grim. Yeah. I wrote. Well, that's.

Oh, that's right.

That's when I just couldn't do anything for.

Oh, that's right. That's right. I forgot that you had that.

Yeah. So I wrote a book about it. Anybody's interested? Joseph Levy Escapes Death. You know, maybe that's part of me enjoying watching certain animals, you know, like, you know, animal killing animal. It kind of changes you, that being, you know, that being that close to the edge.

I'm sure.

Yeah. You even offered to come out, you know, to visit or to, you know, do a show at my house.

Yeah. When you were real struggling and we were going back and forth, you just weren't sure if you could travel. I was like. I was worried about you.

Yeah. Thanks.

Because you bounded back. Look at you. You look great.

Thanks.

But there was a time where I was worried about you because it didn't. You didn't sound like you were doing well at all. Like you were really struggling. And so.

Yeah, that's one of the things that pushed. Well, I began reading concentration camp literature during that phase.

Really?

Like, how bad have people had it and what did they do?

Wow.

It was pretty inspiring. I liked reading Primo Levi. He's my favorite author. Elie Wiesel, too. Yeah. Auschwitz and the end of Auschwitz, like near the end, the last month or two. Seemed like it was really something. Typhus and nobody cleaning up after them for weeks. Things freezing and bursting. It was just nuts. So Prima Levi was a chemist, very clinical, took notes, remembered things in a very kind of dispassionate, almost journalistic description the kinds of things people can go through. Yeah. You know, so that cheered me up in a way. I mean, it distracted me. Like, boy, they had it way worse and they had faith in something. So I think that helps, you know, strengthen my faith. Like, God wasn't done with me. Ooh.

So did you feel like you had an obligation to get to work once you got healthy again? Like God gave you this chance.

Yeah.

This bounce back return of the Mac.

Thank God. Yeah.

It's great to see you looking healthy because I really did worry because it's, you know, sometimes people, a bad health trip take some. Just takes them down and weakens them so much that they never really come back.

Yeah, well, you think about death. You must think about death. Sure, I think about death.

You have to. It's coming whether you want it or not.

Be interesting to not think about death.

Yeah. I don't dwell on it, but I'm definitely aware of it.

There was a week or two friends came over talking about their wishes or their interest in medically assisted death. There was a big article about that even a couple of months ago in one of the British journals. Yeah. Medically unassisted death. I called a rabbi and I asked his advice, and he said, you know, you might be. You know, you may be obligated to knock the pills onto the floor. I thought that was an interesting take.

You may be obligated to knock the pills onto the floor from the person's.

Hand who's about to take them. Well, that would. Yeah, interesting. Or, you know, within. Or more the equivalent, you know, like, you know, there might be some drugs going in. IV would. Right, right. Stop them up. Yeah. You know, so. Well, yeah, like, I. I feel pretty good. So I wonder, well, you know, what happens if I start feeling really bad. Yeah. So, you know, I feel good. So I figure, well, just keep me out of pain. You give me enough, you know, morphine, See what happens. My mom died. I watched her die.

Oh, wow.

We gave her morphine at a van to Lake Valley. Yeah. It was pretty peaceful. Yeah, it was quiet. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a weird thing because you don't want anybody poisoning anybody, but you do want to give people the option to go out gracefully.

Well, I think you'd just be feeling great.

Yeah, exactly.

You'd be feeling great.

That would be gracefully.

Right.

Just one burst. I had a morphine drip when I had my knee operated on once in the 90s. And it was incredible. It was incredible. And I. People tell me this is not true, but I swear I remember this being true, that you could press the button anytime you wanted more morphine?

Yeah, yeah. I think it's called patient controlled analgesia or something.

Yeah. People are like, no, no, you remembering it wrong. I'm like, I don't think I am, man. I really remember hitting that button a bunch of times and meeting Jesus. It was like the most wonderful, loving hug by the universe. It was just like this thing in bed while my leg is on this continual motion machine. You know what those are?

No, but I can imagine when they.

Do ACL reconstructions, when they do a patella tendon graft, it's a pretty violent operation. They have to cut your knee open like a fish. They take a slice of your patella tendon along with a chunk of your bone from your shin and a chunk of your bone from. From your kneecap, and then they screw it all back in place. And to keep it from seizing up while you're lying in bed, your leg is on this machine that goes like this. Extends it and brings it back. Extends it and brings it back, because otherwise it'll lock up and then you're fucked.

Were you awake when this was happening?

Oh, yeah. You're awake. Yeah, I was awake for the operation because my thought is, I'm only going to have one knee operation. I want to be awake for it. So they did, like an epidural.

Epidural, yeah.

So I was awake. I watched it. I watched it on a monitor. It was crazy, crazy to watch this guy open my knee up, screw it in place. The point is, while I was in the hospital bed, they had this button that you could press when you wanted more morphine. And I hit that button, like, a bunch of times. And I was like, wow, it felt incredible. And I only did. And I remember also thinking, boy, this could be a problem, because I. I had done construction with a guy who had a bit of a heroin problem. And so I was aware that people would get, like, a real opiate problem. And when I was in bed, I was like, I get it. I get it now. It feels. It feels amazing.

Yeah. Well, I would say cool, but.

Yeah, but also I knew that, like, my leg was fucked. I knew it was gonna take forever before it felt normal again. It was in pain. And, like, just like, okay, I can't do anything but enjoy this right now. Just like, let me take a couple of taps and wee. You know, I don't care anymore.

It's called God's medicine for, you know, God's own medicine for a reason.

Yeah. It felt like A hug felt like the universe giving you a hug.

Yeah. Well, interesting. You mentioned that one day you were, you know, talking about faith and belief and what you base it on. I was just talking about how when I was living up in Taos, I was feeling kind of alone and sad and I prayed, you know, I prayed to God, you know, help me. And I felt this loving hug kind of embrace me at the moment. Whoa. Yeah. Which must have been mediated probably by endorphins too, right? Because it sounds pretty similar, but it's.

Interesting that we always want to dismiss anything positive like that. Oh, it's probably just endorphins just giving you this feeling. Right. But is endorphins because of. Or the source of, like, which one is. Might just be a part of it? Like. Yeah, the endorphins are real. But also is the experience.

It's the experience that you're experiencing, the.

Intention that you're putting out there.

Right, right. You're not feeling the endorphins attaching to the receptors.

Exactly.

Yeah. You feel wonderful.

Yeah. There's something real to it.

Yeah. You know, drugs are interesting.

They are. Well, I just wish they weren't being controlled by the cartels. Yeah, that's what's crazy. It's crazy is like people are not going to stop using, I don't think. I think there's a lot of drugs you should never use. Kids and there's a lot of people that should never use any drugs. But the fact that they are always going to and that the only way they can get them is through a criminal organization. And we haven't done our fucking. One plus one equals two on that still in 2025.

Yeah. Well, a dispensary for everything you want.

Well, it's got to be more than that, man, because some of that stuff's heavy. So it's not just going to be a dispensary, but it also has to be some sort of counseling center, some sort of a guided trip. There's got to be like very clear ethics, you know, you got to have people that really know what they're doing and just want to help and don't have any weird narcissistic intentions or anything else. They just want to help people. You'd have to have that too, because there's going to be a lot of freaked out people. If you make mushrooms and acid and all these things legal, you can just go get it or you're 18. Oh, go buy it. Like.

Yeah, I think there should be increased access.

I think so too. You Know, but I'm not opposed to. I'm just saying the reality of the new interface. If we just have all of a sudden these drugs are not just legal, but legal and available for adults to buy, then you're going to deal with a whole new set of problems that didn't exist before. I'm not saying you shouldn't deal with that problem. I think, I think it's inevitable. It's probably gonna happen anyway. But those problems will be uniquely inflated by everything being legal because people are just gonna go out and go fucking crazy.

And why is that?

Because if you can go to the bar and you can just go buy acid, do you know people are gonna just go get acid? If you could go, like to any corner liquor store and pick up a pound of mushrooms, like if it's just totally legal, because you can go to liquor store and get a case of beer, right? You can get a case of whiskey. You can get 24 bottles of whiskey. That is death by whiskey. There's no way you're drinking that tonight, sir. You can't buy that many. They never tell you that. Like, go ahead, you want to spend that money. So if you wanted to do that with mushrooms and you could go to the liquor store and buy pounds of mushrooms.

Well, you know, I think with increased access there's increased, you know, mortality. There will be, yeah. Yeah.

And there's not just that. It's like people that just like, they ruin their brains. They're not ready for it. They're maybe they're barely hanging on as it is. And then they have too many psychedelic trips now they're really up and.

Well, that's true too. You'll never hear me advocate for the use of drugs.

Good for you.

Yeah. I've never said people should take drugs. I say people shouldn't.

How many people are on amphetamines right now?

A lot of people on amphetamines. I've got an amphetamine story. A friend gave me some Adderall one day. Well, I asked him for it. You came clean.

You came clean right away with no prompting. That's funny.

Yeah. He was taking it for adhd. I said help. And I wrote this review. Well, there used to be a magazine called Shaman's Drum which did a book review on the, on the DMT book. And he didn't think it should be called the Spirit Molecule. The Spirit Molecule. Rather the Dream Molecule. I took umbrage. So after I took the Adoral, I wrote a 20 page letter. It was pretty self, you know. What's the word? Inflated. So. Yeah. And you know, the next morning.

Hilarious.

I. You looked at it and it was terrible.

Yeah.

So I didn't send it.

All my friends who have done. I've never done coke, but all my friends who do coke that do stand up comedy. So you can't do stand up comedy on coke.

Yeah.

They say you have no feeling. You don't like the. You don't connect with the audience. It's like, it's like a. Just a barrier. You could kind of pull it off maybe, but you never really, like, lock in.

Yeah. So you're not funny on it.

Yeah, you're not funny on it. You're. You're probably detached. You're probably self obsessed. You know, it's a weird drive. I just.

Well, it would be like you were talking to yourself and you loved it.

You love the sound of your voice. I think Adderall's a lot like that too, though. It's very similar. There's something similar to that.

Yeah. In my case, it was just writing. Just writing, writing, writing. I was feeling like, you know, I had a lot to say.

Yeah. I'm not even saying you shouldn't do it, but journalists I know do it. I know a lot of journalists who love Adderall. They might not even say they love Adderall, but they fucking love Adderall. I know. They do it all the time and you can, you know, you could blame it on deadlines and, you know, having to write stories and really needing to push through because you don't have enough time. I totally get it. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but it's just fascinating how many people do it.

Yeah. It was the case with PK Dick. He was into amphetamines. He died of a stroke.

Oh, yeah. I'm sure you're going to cook those veins. You're going to cook everything. If you're doing amphetamines all the time, you're cooking your brain, son.

Do you like PK Dick?

I haven't read him since high school, you know.

Yeah, I went through a phase. Well, I was talking about St. Peter Snow. It's written by a Viennese Jew mathematician guy named perutz who did St. Peter's snow. And I read all of his books. There's like eight and yeah, it's fun to get to know someone. So once I started thinking about Dick, well, I watched the TV show what's it called? The man from the High Castle and got me interested in reading the novel by Dick and went through most of his work.

What was the movie they did based on one of his novels?

I Love Dick or I Love PK Dick?

There was a movie they did based on one of his novels. Do you remember which one it was?

Oh, quite a few, right? There's one movie that minority reports, Total.

Recall was his, too.

Total Recall, we can remember for it whole. We can remember for you. We. We can remember for you. Wholesale is the one that was, you know, Total Recall.

Blade Runner was amazing. The original Blade Runner with Rutger Hauer. Oh, my God.

Did you. What about the. Oh, gosh. The one with Keanu Reeves and Robert Downey Jr. And the rotoscope. Scanner Darkly. Scanner Darkly.

Alex Jones is in that, isn't he?

Yeah, yeah. So that's a novel by Dick. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. The guy with the skin or the suit that changed according to emotions.

Remember Mood rings? No. Remember those?

I think that may have been.

When I was in high school, they had mood rings. You were cool if you had a mood ring. When I was in high school. So mood ring, apparently, depending upon your body temperature, would light, you know, different hues. You never heard of it?

Not really.

Jamie, see if you can find mood rings.

Yeah, that may have been from the 80s or something.

Yeah. I'm old, dude.

How old do you. And I was more serious by then.

How old are you now?

73.

Okay. You're older than me, dog. I'm 58, so. You look great, by the way. You really do. Yeah, you really do. And you look so much better than you did when you were struggling. So it's really nice to see you bounce back like that. Mood rings became a 1970s sensation. Here we go.

70S? Yeah.

Here we go. So I went to high school in 81, and they were still down with mood rings, if you were in the right circles. Yeah, but these goofy things, you would wear them and they'd make your hand green, of course, because they're made out of crap. Like, the metal was crap. But they had these weird rocks on them that would change color. See, if you find, like, a photo of one, but, like, a photo of one changing color, that's not a photo.

That'd be a video.

I'm sorry. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, show what it looks like. They're kind of dope, though. Kind of. Kind of cool still. Is that a real.

Is that a rock? What the.

Is that. What does that. That's a good question. I don't know. What is a mood? Let's Find that out. What is a mood ring made out of? What is it made out of? Is it like a. A resin or something?

It might be some kind of plastic acrylic with rhyme.

Or is it an actual rock? Okay, so this dude came up with the mood ring. Okay, okay. Who created the mood ring? Remains topic of some debate. A jewelry designer named Marvin Wernick says he invented the mood ring years before 1975, developing the idea after he saw a doctor use a thermochromic temperature measuring tape on a patient. Said he came up with the idea of a mood ring after the stress of working in Wall street led him to explore biofeedback, a therapeutic technique where people improve their health by responding to signals from their own bodies. Huh. So what are the crystals made out of, bro?

Crystals.

The crystals. What are they? What are the crystals? Ooh, look how pretty. That's pretty, isn't it? Like a dope ring. That's a mood ring. You know, that way, like, you could tell whether or not your significant other is upset at you. Like, let me look at your fingers. You're lying.

Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, it's a. It's a form of, you know, global, you know, communication. Huh? No. Keeping secrets.

I don't think it really works. I think it's only just. It's heat. If you go to the gym and you slip it on, you look like you're, like, really angry.

Well, if your hands are cold.

Yeah, exactly. It's not gonna work. So it's just dumb. It's just dumb. But people loved it when I was a kid.

Yeah. I think it kind of passed me by.

You got lucky. You missed the dumb mood swing.

I was in school.

Mood ring swing. When you first. What's interesting is when you first started those studies and you published dmt, the spirit molecule, did that have an effect on people taking you seriously with all your other work? Was it one of those things where you got labeled? Now you're the crazy psychedelic guy who did that nutty study? Or was there enough people that were like, oh, this is great. Now you have a legitimate academic studying this in a federally approved way. This is actually good for everybody. And maybe this opens the door. It certainly opened up the door to the discussion, like, after you put that book out, and people who, if you read that book, you'll come to the conclusion that there's something mighty going on below the surface of human life in general that can be accessed in this.

Very weird way within a second or two. It's banana.

I've Never done it the way you guys did it, but it's the regular way is bananas. And somehow or another we're depriving people of this.

Well, I mean, shouldn't it be the front page news as you can give this drug regularly and everybody goes to the same place?

Yeah.

And it's a very weird place. Well, I think it ought to be on people's. Well be on people's lips.

DMT stopped my fascination with UFOs because I was like, it stopped, it paused it. I should say it paused it because I was like, no matter what a UFO looks like, it's not as crazy as what I just saw. Like no matter what, you are just an actual metal flying disk from another planet. Like yawn. Like that's nothing. It's nothing compared to what exactly exists in a few seconds.

Yeah. And. Well, would you say that you went to the same place? You, you went back there each time? Was it the same place?

You could tell me. You tell me. I don't know. I've done it differently and I've done it differently with sound, with Ikaros, which was wild. Yeah, that was wild. That was like like dancing things. That was really fascinating when you realize like, oh, that's why the music is made the way it's made. Like the music is perfect for that.

Yeah, you get a lot.

It's perfect for the psychedelic trip.

I think it insight into music by seeing it 100%.

I think of music differently from that trip. And then, you know, I think I really want to explore Kundalini Yoga. I just have like put it off forever because I've had friends that have done DMT and also do Kundalini Yoga and they'll tell you, dude, if you work hard enough you can get to that place where you can get to that place with on the natch completely in your own mind without taking any drug at all where you could full on DMT trip. And the guy who told me this was very reliable and had experienced DMT was also a Jiu Jitsu black belt. Like a solid guy. Like I believed him. And he's like, you can get there.

Yeah. Have you ever done or heard about that holotropic breath work?

Yes.

Yeah. It's come to I've done that and it switched me into a very highly altered state.

Very highly altered state.

It felt like, you know, as long as we're talking drugs, it felt more like MDMA than it did dmt.

I've had some moments before I had like a big show or something. I Just really wanted to relax. Where I'll do deep breathing and stretching. Just deep breathing and stretching. And you get high as it. Just this weird natural high that happens. Like, you alleviate tension in your body, and your body rewards you for it with all this endorphin rush and dopamine. You get so friendly and so sweet. You just want to hug everybody. You want everybody to be happy. It's like, releases this, like, you're carrying around physical things, tension that manifests itself in the way you view the world. Well, so you can get out of it on your own, which is nuts.

Yeah. So how do you think, you know, what do you think it means that that's built into our systems?

I think we need physical activity, and I think we always have had physical activity. So it wasn't ever a thing where you had to mandate physical activity. It's like we had to stay alive. So because of that, there's, like, the body functions in that way. It's only strong if it's forced to work. It only has a good immune system if it's exposed to a certain amount of different people and different bios. It becomes just like a muscle does when it gets sedentary. It atrophies. And your body. And so that's the problem with, like, the human civilization. We get into cities, Everything becomes easier. You're sedentary most of the time. The body decays, and you're in a state where you're depressed all the time. You don't know why. Well, it's because your body doesn't. It's not designed to work like that. For tens of thousands of years, you had to be active. You had to be running around. You had to be carrying things. You had to be getting water. You had to be building things, you had to be hunting things and fishing. You had to be moving because you had to stay alive. And then all of a sudden, you're not.

And I think that's one of the great dilemmas of mental health in this country that's maybe dismissed by a lot of people. One of the great dilemmas is you're sedentary.

I think there were some studies comparing Prozac way back when with a routine of physical exercise. And exercise is an antidepressant.

It's been recent ones with SSRIs that show that it's more effective, more effective than SSRIs, because we're not supposed to be sedentary. And nobody wants to be told what to do, and nobody wants to feel bad. I get it. But you have to feel bad for yourself so you could feel better later. You just have to get coached. That's all it is. And don't resist it.

Just.

Just embrace it.

What about Oz? Epic, though.

I don't think those things are bad in the right circumstances. I don't think if you're a guy and you need to lose 30 pounds, you get on that. Come on, man, you can do that. You can lose. I'll be your friend. I'll help you. Like, just stop eating sugar, stop eating bread. Get yourself on a workout schedule. You're gonna say, I'm gonna get on the fucking bike in the morning. I'm gonna get on that stupid fucking. I'm gonna do a peloton workout every day for a month. You'll lose £20 that month.

Right.

You can do it. You just have to be focused.

Right?

But if you're £500, if you're, if you're, if you're morbidly obese, if you're really addicted to food, you've got a real problem. I think it can help you get to a healthy path. That's what I think it's really the best for. If you can help people get to a healthy path where they stop overeating, they can get under control, they get new patterns, and then they start getting addicted to walking, maybe get addicted to feeling better. Start being able to do things you couldn't do before. There's like hundreds of pages of Instagram people who during COVID where they were obese wind up losing 100, 200 pounds. Do you know who Jelly Roll is?

No, but I've seen some, you know, some stories, some pictures of people that were very, very, very heavy. 800 pounds.

Jelly roll is an amazing musician, an incredible guy who like went to jail. He's got face tattoos, but he's the sweetest person that's ever lived. He's lost like £200 in the last year or so. Is it a year and a half? Two years? He looks amazing. No ozempic, nozempic. Just doing it the right way, exercising. But I just think the problem, there's always like some sort of a trade off when it comes to what you do and don't do. Look at the size he used to be and look what he looks like now. Isn't that insane?

Yeah, that insane. Amazing.

Well, the sweetest guy of all time too.

Yeah. You know, so you could lose that weight. It's, well, it's like depression and exercise.

But also he's a, well, healthy star. He has access to great food. He has a reason to believe his life is going to be better. He's got a great life already.

Yeah.

From us enhancing himself.

Yeah. I think for most people, like, actually developing a real exercise regimen would be way harder than just taking Prozac.

Yes. But that's where a guy like that comes in. Play we go, well, he could do it. I could do it too. Like, what do you. What do you have to do? You just have to start slow, keep moving, don't stop. Get a schedule, put it together, make some progress, note the progress, get excited about progress, keep going. But if Ozempic helps you, like, fuck it. I'm for whatever helps you, man. You know, I've had a friend that was very close to suicide before he got on SSRIs. I'll never say there's no one should ever take SSRIs, because I don't know if he would have bounced back. But he did bounce back, and then he got himself off of them, and then he got healthy, and now he's great. And this is, you know, with a lot of medications, a lot of them are. They have just real benefits for them. And I think Ozempic is one of those. I think if you'reif you're a morbidly obese person. One of the things that my friend Brigham Bueller, who is the CEO of Ways2Well and Ways to well is also a pharmacy. They're a compounding pharmacy.

So they make some peptides, and he said you can make it so that it doesn't have all the negative effects by making it for the actual size of the person. So you give them the exact dose. And combining peptides, that's gonna prevent bone loss and muscle loss. Like, it's possible to healthily slow the process down, stop the overeating, get the inflammation in check, get the diet in check. But it's gotta be done, like, systemically. And they want you to do it with, like, a certain amount of exercise per week. And then. And they want you to eat vegetables and meat and just healthy stuff. Only throw out all the bullshit and let's try to get this train back on track.

Yeah, it reminds me of that P.K. dick story. Did you. What was it called? The three stigmata of Palmer Eldritch. It's about competition between an extra stellar interstellar psychedelic versus a terrestrial psychedelic. Which company was going to be able to sell the psychedelic or the worldview of choice? The one that came from the Earth got people into Perky Patty's world. Where everybody was this big and they all lived in this house together and did stuff like they went to the beach and had barbecues and things, you know, that was the terrestrial psychedelic that was competing against an intra stellar psychedelic, which was completely horrible. It was weird. It was like you never stopped tripping, like, oh, no.

Oh, no.

Yeah. And you know, that was gradually spreading.

Oh, well, I think that's everybody's fear when they do something like, oh, my God, what if this never ends? What if this is my new reality? Like, oh, my God, I'm done, I'm dead, I'm gone.

It's always been this way. It will always be this way. Yeah. That was my worst trip ever. Right.

And then for people with severe anxiety, some people just don't bounce back. Well, from something like that. And that's why never advocate drugs to anybody.

I never have.

Yeah, I know you haven't. Yeah, well, you didn't even want to admit that you did them when we first started talking.

Right.

You didn't even want to admit you smoked pot.

Yeah, at this point.

You know, But I think you thought back then, like, to be taken seriously as a researcher.

Mm, yeah, that's true. But I've. I'm less of a researcher now, so I don't have that same kind of, you know, camouflage to wear.

Yes, well, I'm glad because, like, without you, the understanding of what that experience is would be greatly diminished in popular culture. I don't think people would really understand what it is if it wasn't for that book. And I know you gotta really stick your neck out to try to make something like that.

Yeah.

And it's bizarre because it is a thing. It's a real thing, and you should know about real things. You should know about real things that have probably been in human use for thousands and thousands of years and hidden from you by Nixon.

Yeah. The thing I like so much about DMT is that it's endogenous. It's made in the brain. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think it's what we're making when we're dreaming?

It might be what we're making right now. Yeah. You know, that's one idea is that it regulates consensus reality by maintaining itself at a certain concentration in the brain.

I buy that, but I buy a lot of things.

It's the Matrix, the Endometrix. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you know about the Matrix or this red laser and dmt? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Tell people about it because it's nuts.

Yeah, I don't. I don't know much about it.

You haven't done it?

No.

So apparently it's a red laser and if you're tripping on DMT and you look down or below, so you could either look from below it, look up, or from above it, look down.

Right.

Is that correct?

I didn't know there is a directional.

I think it's a directional thing. I don't think if it's on the wall, you read it. I think you have to get above it and look down.

Okay.

But I think that's what they say. And if you do that, you see code.

Code? Yeah. Like the Matrix.

Yeah.

Or Japanese.

If there's anybody that should believe that life isn't real, it's me. Life isn't real, that it's not real like that. Maybe there is some sort of magical quality to this experience, some sort of very difficult to grasp aspect of reality that we ignore that's spiritual or mystical or there's something going on outside of just normal physical reality.

Well, I think things wouldn't be this way otherwise because certain things are encouraged and certain things are discouraged.

Yeah.

And you know, cause and effect goes a certain way. It's not neutral.

Right.

You know, it kind of pushes you in one direction. Mm, yeah. So who created cause and effect? What are cause and effects? Causes, motivations.

What are, what are angels and demons?

Right.

What is, what are. Where evil. Where does evil come from? We know it's real. Where does good come from? We know it's real. It's like everybody wants to be so smart. They dismiss the idea of angels and demons. It's really fascinating because they're really just a word for an actual force that creates a damaging, terrifying or wonderful, amazing effect. Good and evil.

Right, Right. Angels and demons.

Yeah. The effect is real and we both know that people are capable of either one. It's one of the reasons why we love people though, because we love great people, because we know that there's terrible people. We love people that are warm and friendly and kind and sweet because we know that there's people out there that are self serving and shitty and mean, you know, and we need one to appreciate the other. And that's what's so fucked up about being a person.

Yeah. Well, in the text anyway, angels are intermediaries, you know, like, you know, God has no body, Right. So how can God interact with the world? So the angels are the intermediaries.

That makes sense.

Yeah. Like DMT in a way, is the most spiritual of the physical.

What do you think about the people that try to connect UAPs with angels?

I don't know.

Have you ever had a uap? Ufo?

I don't think.

Alien experience?

No, I've never. No, not really. What about you?

No, I'm trying, bro.

You're trying?

How do you try and I get on the rooftop. I got a flashlight. No, I. I wish. Yeah, I wish I saw something. I wish I saw something that was like 100%. There's no way that's ours, right? It'd be cool.

Yeah, that's never happened.

But I don't think they're all lying. I don't think that's the case. I don't think they're all lying. There's too many of them that tell a story that just doesn't seem like bullshit.

Has Whitley Striber been on your show?

No. He's an odd one because he's a fiction writer, you know, not that I don't believe him, but when a guy writes fantastical fiction for a living and then has a fantastical, fantastical fictional experience that actually happens to him, that becomes his thing. It's like Arsenio hall said, things that make you go home. Not saying that it didn't actually happen to him because his. His experience. It would be ironic if it did because then nobody would believe him because he writes fiction.

Right.

But his experiences mirror a lot of the experiences from the John Mack book, you know. Did you read that book, Abduction?

Yeah. I knew John back in the day. I liked him. Very smart guy.

Those stories, and that was back before the Internet really, where there was any social media or anything like that back then. Those stories were oddly uniform.

Well, they were. And you know John Mack, the psychiatrist from Harvard or Cambridge. Yeah. We talked about the similarities between his subjects reports and our DMT volunteers. He thought we had, you know, come across a technology that would make contact. At least the experience of contact, you know, something that could be studied scientifically. Jeez.

Someone should reignite that idea right now.

I'm surprised DMT is not in the news more.

Well, there was a study that they were doing in England, correct?

Yeah. There's a couple groups where they were.

Doing a long term drip. Not like yours. So yours was like one push. I think theirs was like a drip.

Yeah. 30 minutes, something kooky like that. Yeah, yeah. And there's a group in Switzerland. John Dean at UC San Diego is going to start one. So there's at least three around the world.

It's a real place that you can go to. And that's what's nuts.

Yeah.

For people that never experienced Anything. And they're teetotalers their whole life. It sounds crazy, I know it sounds crazy.

Yeah, well, you know, what do you think of the beings? Do you think the beings are outside of us?

Do you think they're disembodied souls or do you think they're inside us all the time? Well, if they're inside us all the time, then we're everything. Then inside of us is just somehow connected to everything. We're not individuals at all. We are everything. All of us are everything. If they are inside of us and they may be inside of us, it might be the idea of a physical boundary is just nonsense. Who gives a fuck where it's from? It's all everywhere, all the time. You just don't have access to it right now. You don't have access to it in your default state because your default fundamental state is a primate, you know, but it's in there and occasionally you have access to it. You have access to it near death experiences, you have access to it holotropic breathing. But if you had access to it all the time, you wouldn't be able to exist in this barbaric state that you live in.

Well, I think it has to do with the dose. I mean, if it's really high, if the levels are really high in the brain and the mind. Yeah. You know, this could be just a DMT simulation. I'm not the first.

Right?

Yeah, it could be. In which case there still is cause and effect.

Well, just imagine a world where this wasn't reality. But then you got to experience this. It would be completely psychedelic. It'd be like, what is this fucking crazy world?

It'd be different. Yeah, it's the 3D and the shadow people just.

Do you know how weird it is sometimes if you just stand on a corner and watch people just walking and looking at their phones?

Yeah, well, people have been a lot.

Of kidnapped and they don't even know it.

Yeah, there's a lot of that here.

It's everywhere.

Yeah, everywhere. I moved back to Albuquerque last year.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah. 14 years in Gallup was plenty. Yes. So it's cool.

Better civil legislation.

I do.

Nice.

Yeah. And we have a front lawn and a back lawn.

There you go.

Yeah.

Yeah. Albuquerque is home to some of the greatest mixed martial arts fighters ever.

Yeah.

Jon Jones lives in Albuquerque.

Right.

Greatest of all time.

Yeah.

Shout out to Albuquerque. Jackson Winkle, John in the house.

Yeah. I love New Mexico. That's great.

Well, it's a crazy state with a rich history and beautiful Landscape. Oh, my God. I have a friend who just got back from elk hunting. There he was raving about how gorgeous it was out there.

The sky is great. We have a pretty cool governor. Before she was governor, she was the Secretary of Health. Oh, cool. During COVID So she knows public health.

And she's a nice lady. You like her?

Yeah, beautiful.

Thanks for being here, man. It was a lot of fun. It always is. It's always great to see you. It's been great to be your friend all these years.

Oh, yes, man.

It's great to see you healthy.

Yeah, it's great. Yeah, same. You look pretty wonderful yourself.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. Is my DMT in the solar prophets?

Yeah, it's right here.

There it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty old.

Hold that sucker up so people can buy it.

It came in. It came out in 2014. Yeah, it's, you know, what's the soul prophecy? Is it the visions or is it the message?

So. And then there's the other books that are available. Dmt, the Spirit Molecule, which is what got me into you in the first place. What a great cover too. That Alex Gray artwork.

Well, you know, his artwork is on the second book too.

Yeah, yeah.

Right, right. Yeah, that's Alex Gray as well.

He's amazing.

I mean, that guy.

There's no one ever has captured the DMT state quite like him.

Yeah, you know, he's pretty good.

And it's just beautiful work. Like, it's stuck, like. And that crazy chapel of sacred mirrors that he has now 3D printed like chapel.

Do you have. Do you have any of his original art? No, no, I've got the Spirit Molecule. Oh, it's so cool. It's in the hallway. Yes.

He's been a sweet guy, though. I've talked to him a few times. All right, thank you very much. Thanks for being here.

Really appreciate you. Goodbye, everybody.