Transcript of Ivanka Trump: My Dad Told Me Two Weeks Before He Ran For President! New

She was extraordinary. Um, my mother taught me a lot about just like bringing intention to what you do, bringing— sorry. And being the child of accomplished parents, most people thought that I would lack the ambition, the preparedness, but my mother taught me that being underestimated is not a bad thing. It's It's a very powerful thing, actually. And it almost always worked to the detriment of the person who underestimated me.

From real estate to her own multimillion-dollar fashion line, Ivanka Trump continues to carve her own path into the business world, succeeding at every turn. And then you learn 2 weeks before he announces, your father decides he wants to be president of the United States. Did you have any sense that this was at all on the horizon?

Not really. And then when he pulled the trigger, it was full steam.

But most people wouldn't give up an $800 million annual business to go into government. Why did you?

He asked us for help. He's like, "But I have to warn you, they're gonna come at you hard. They're probably gonna hate you." But one of the things I've learned in moments of tremendous pressure and scrutiny, where any slip-up is completely weaponized against you, is to find the signal in the noise. I just don't get distracted by the outside noise. That's probably the thing that has been most helpful to me in terms of performance and success, because you have a choice only in how you respond.

You've said politics is a profession pretty dark world. This is quite a difficult question to ask, but when you heard the news that there was an assassination attempt on your father's life, do you remember where you were? And like, what's that like as a daughter? Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins. The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show, The most shared episodes, the most rated episodes. I would love you to know, and the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make the show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so, so much. You don't do many interviews, do you?

Not really, no.

Why don't you do much media stuff or podcasting or interviews?

I actually don't know. I think I get sort of really locked in and heads down on what I'm working on that I tend to kind of put on blinders and just go. But I like to have conversations in longer form with people that I admire.

I think the reason why I I do this is because I see, I naturally see everybody as like a jigsaw puzzle. And you've lived an extraordinary life. You've lived an extraordinary, atypical life that, I mean, it's safe to say almost nobody on planet Earth has ever experienced. And so I think I asked that question, just to be completely honest, at the top, because the life you've lived that we'll get into is one that would've shaped you in a number of ways. And one of them is, I think, From what I read, things that you had said and different experiences you had as a child is just like trusting people.

You know, it's interesting. I grew up the child of wealthy and accomplished parents. And so I do think there's like a natural barrier that goes up. You're worried about people, especially when you're a kid, liking you for the wrong reasons. I see this now with my son. You know, he wants to be loved by his friends, and I appreciate that. That's good for who he is. Not for who we are and certainly not for what we have. So I do think being the child of famous parents and living such a privileged life, I had this guard and that guard served me really well for a long time. Like, I didn't have any friends despite the really tumultuous life that I've had, ups and downs, who really disappointed me. Meaning close, close friends who didn't show up for me or who changed because of my circumstances or what was happening around me. And I've learned for me, I mean, you were saying the purpose of life, for me it's the expansion and not contraction of the heart. And that's hard as you get older. How do you live a life of service and rooted in love and connection?

And I've learned more and more that those walls they don't serve you. And the only way to have connection, which is so fundamental to the human experience, is to build it, and that requires trust. So I have to trust people. Now, I have a good radar. I'm not foolish. I think I'm a very good read of people, and I think it's one of my strengths. And I think it's why I haven't been surprised by a lot of people. So I read pretty quickly, but I also have had to teach myself rather than grow sort of cynical as one tends to as they get older. I've really actually taught myself to be more trusting. And to the extent that means periodically I'll be burned, like that's— I'm okay with that trade-off because I think it will lead to more meaningful connections in my life.

Probably nets out better, right, in the long term?

I think so.

I have this photo here of a very small Ivanka.

So funny. I look at this and I see my daughter.

Really?

That was like the first thing when I saw that photo.

At what age did you realize that life for you was slightly different from the average person? Like, when does a child realize that?

Hmm. I think there was always a lot of media attention and scrutiny. You see it, you experience it very early on. I think my parents did a really good job trying to shelter us from it. And it was different then without social media. You know, not everyone— I think the experience our children have where anywhere they go, people have a recording device in their hands, their iPhone, and can take pictures of them. And, you know, it's so— you're so exposed during your formative years. And thankfully, I did not have that growing up. There were times I felt it. I remember I wanted to be a dancer, a ballet dancer. And, you know, my mom was an incredible skier. She skied on the national team for then Czechoslovakia, now Czech Republic. And so she really believed in the importance of sport for cultivating discipline. And so she really encouraged this. And I was dancing at Juilliard, the School of American Ballet here in New York. I was in The Nutcracker. And I remember I was probably I was, you know, like some small role in The Nutcracker. I was a party girl and an angel. Those were like the entry roles where you like dance at the party where the man with the nutcracker arrives and then you're in that angel scene.

And I remember being so excited and it was my first Nutcracker. And Michael Jackson had just moved into Trump Tower and was literally our neighbor in Trump Tower. And my father sees him one day, you know, passing in the lobby, I'm with him. I said, you know, my daughter's in The Nutcracker. You should come. You should come see a performance. So he comes to The Nutcracker with my father at the height of his fame to watch me dance. And now this, in retrospect, could be like, wow, what a cool experience. But I was horrified. Like, this is— I was so embarrassed. I thought we had ruined The Nutcracker. Everyone was dancing with one glove. People who produced the show were, you know, hysterical that everyone was dancing with one glove. I thought it was all my fault. And this was like just a wild childhood experience. I had things like that happen that were so far from normal that it's actually like comical in retrospect. But I think the, the day-to-day was like really grounded. My grandmother and, uh, and grandfather before he passed on my mother's side really raised us. My grandmother cooked every meal we ate for, you know, most of my childhood.

And, uh, Bubby. Yeah. So she taught me a type of unconditional love and tenderness. And I think more than anything, she was just this un— That's her. She's unbelievably nurturing. I'd come home from school, and, you know, before I'd be out of the shower, she would have laundered my clothes and folded them and put them back on my bed. She was always feeding me, and food for her was very much like an expression of love. I remember when I became a teenager and I'd sleep late later and later, she'd wake me up for lunch. Just like, God forbid I wasn't being fed at all hours.

But I can see she means the world to you.

She does. She's 98 years old, and, um, you know, her health has suffered, and, you know, it's, it's been a little bit of a difficult time for her. But I, I feel so strongly, for, for me and my children to have the experience to be there for her in just like a small fraction of the way that she was there for me is such an extraordinary privilege. And for them to grow up with her at our table every single meal each night and her telling her stories and stories of my mother who they sadly didn't get to know.

Are you okay? I can see you're crying.

No, I'm— yes, I'm great. I have a lot of love for this woman, Giselle. This doesn't happen to me often.

What is that mixture of emotions that you're experiencing?

Um, she taught me so much just about love, and we were talking before about connection, um, and, uh, you know, it's It's been hard to see her now as she, as she struggles, but, but she's— it's a blessing to have her in our home and living with us and very special person. Maybe I'll have a tissue. Thank you.

It's a real credit to her.

Yeah.

It's often a testament to the person and the value that they've added to your life and how they were there for you that you would feel the way you do about her. And that's so visible in your face. You know, she must have been quite formative.

Oh, for sure. For sure. So she's been— she's an amazing person.

You said that she, she was really taking care of you and under sort of the age of 10. Mother and father, I'm assuming, very, very busy.

Yeah.

Explain that to me.

You know, my mother was an incredible trailblazer, um, an amazing example for me of strength and resilience and glamor and determination and ambition. And she was a great mother too. But she would also say, like, she couldn't do it alone. And she wasn't pretending she could. So she surrounded us with people who loved us. We had two amazing nannies. One of them worked for my mother until the day she died. The other worked for my mother until the day my mother died and still works with us today. Worked as— after we grew up, she worked as my mother's personal assistant. So they were very much part of our lives and part of our extended family. And of course, my grandmother, who she trusted completely with us. So she showed me a lot at a time when, you know, not many women were doing what my mother was doing inside the boardroom and on the construction sites all the time, by the way, with 5-inch heels and, like, perfectly coiffed hair. So she made it look incredibly easy, but it was, and continues to be, very challenging to balance work and life like that, especially at a time where what she was doing was so singular.

So she, she really— my mother served as an unbelievable role model for me for what is possible, how to be an amazing mother who was loving and nurturing and fun and provides for children, and also to be unabashedly and doggedly pursuing one's goals in a professional capacity. So she did that when she was married to my father. She did that following their divorce and really was just an amazing mentor for me.

You're growing up in a context where your family are privileged, they have notoriety, and both parents are quite absent by way of them being so busy. And they're also kind of—

I wouldn't say absent, but, you know, my mother wasn't home cooking us meals. My grandmother was. But my mother was home when we ate them. And then she'd go out again. You know, her and my father were actively building their life and pursuing their passions. And for my mom, much like me today, you know, one of her creative expressions came in the form of design and architecture. She wasn't absent, and, you know, neither was my father. So he was filled a more typical of that generation male role, where he was less, like, present. But there was never a doubt in my mind that I was his top priority and that he was available to me. So I used to call him from the payphone at Chapin. It was in a broom closet. And never once did he not pick up. And sometimes his office would be filled with people of, you know, he'd be in the middle of a deal or a negotiation or some politician or whatever it was. And he'd always put me on speakerphone and then start the conversation by telling everyone how I got great grades. And I'd start to blush.

But he always picked up. They weren't absent. Did I what?

Miss him?

No, because I didn't feel like they— I didn't feel like he was absent. It was just different. Like he wasn't— attending all of our sports games. But by the way, few parents were, you know, 4 decades ago. There's a lot more sort of active participation, like the way I am in my kids' life, the way my husband is. I think it is, you know, a little different, especially for fathers today than 30 years ago.

If I sat Ivana, your mother, here next to us at the same age you are now, what would be the fundamental differences in in those individuals?

You know, it's funny, I think back now and, um, my mother and I are both incredibly similar and very different. So she had like over-the-top style and glamor, you know, and I think in some ways it was a reaction to the austerity and the control of growing up in a communist country and in then Czechoslovakia. It's like nobody was going to tell her what to do, nobody was going to tell her what to say, so she actually would make my father look PC and was hysterical. I mean, I spent much of my childhood being like, oh, Mom, please, please stop. You know, it was really interesting. Um, I feel like today, because my mother passed away, um, unexpectedly, um, from a fall a few years ago, there were just like— I had a lot of questions, and, um, And I really dug into her story and her history and really studied her almost in a way that I wish I'd done when she was living and I could speak to her directly. And I think I understand her, A, because I'm at a level of maturity and I have some of the same issues, you know, having young children.

And I think I understand her though better today than I did in some ways in her life. Like, I see her more fully.

And what did you understand more about her that you didn't understand while she was here after she passed?

She wrote a book in the final years of her life that talked a lot more about her childhood. And I think not uncommon for people who have experienced, you know, a lot of hardship, sometimes they compartmentalize and it's like forward only. And this whole part of her life she never talked about. And I think when you're younger, you ask a lot less questions. Like, now I would tell everyone who's listening, like, really ask the questions, especially if people are a bit of a vault and are less inclined to, to look back in the past because they, you know, all of her life experience very much shaped her.

This was a beautiful photo that I found of you and her.

That was in, in Mar-a-Lago. On my childhood bed. Very ornate. Yeah, she was really— I mean, she was impossibly glamorous.

I couldn't find a photo where she didn't look incredible. No, no, no. 9 years old, your mother and father split up, divorced. It was quite well publicized that your father had an affair with somebody. And this is actually where the quote that I referenced earlier about trust comes in, because Quite remarkably, reporters were waiting outside of your school to take photos of you and ask questions about your father's affair. And the quote that I read in GQ said— this is a quote from you— "If I didn't have that lesson, I don't know that I'd be tough. It taught me not to trust anybody. You can never let your guard down. And I never really have since that time." So that's probably the 25-year-old version of me.

As, you know, there's a lot of truth in that. In it. And I think certain defense mechanisms we create for ourselves are actually healthy, because it was healthy for me not to be trusting before I had honed my own instincts and had learned to understand people and read people. So I think there was nothing wrong with a 25 or 27-year-old with my lived experience answering that way. But, um, but I do like to play.

I completely understand though. Like, every part of me completely understands that reaction to that event at, like, 9 years old.

Yeah.

I mean, reporters being at your school, or just generally, you know, how that must have been as a kid in school.

Well, there was a level of aggression that, like, even today wouldn't exist with the paparazzi then. Like, to be shouting things and, like, reading quotes from tabloids to me as I'm leaving school. To put this in context, this— Divorce apparently garnered more headlines than the O.J. Simpson trial. So that was a lot. The difference is that once I stepped into my home, it was a safe place. You know, unless the TVs were blaring, which obviously they weren't during that period of time. So I think the difference today for parents, and that I think about a lot with my kids, is you just can't protect them in the same way. Like, social media amplifies everything. So while that experience with those reporters was extremely combative and aggressive and totally unacceptable in a way that I don't think society would allow today. Today, it's very much more in children's faces. They can acquire the information they need. And obviously, when you're young, you're curious.

Again, I'm trying to worldbuild in my head because I think understanding that early context helps us understand everybody. And if that was my early context, I think you'd see the fingerprints on me today.

Well, I think we're all— you know, I think about it with my own children. Like, I grew up with a lot of privilege, and I've lived an extraordinary life. And, you know, I never worried where my next meal came from. I never worried about being able to pay for the best school that I was able to get into. And so by so many metrics, my life was extremely comfortable and easy. And I do think back, like, some of the challenges, the moments that were disgusting or uncomfortable, or, you know, even just the fact of my parents' marriage being torn apart. I think those create the pressure that turns you into who you become.

Did you know what it meant at 9 years old? Because I, again, I transport myself back.

I probably— then you couldn't look things up as easily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, you know, I— I don't know what I thought. I think I was probably more scared than anything of like the mob and the lights and the surprise of it all.

Did you know what them separating meant? Like, did they have a conversation with you and say, you know, we're splitting up, or was it—

They did. And I think the experience I had, albeit it was televised, but it was very much like any other child who's 9 whose parents are separating. You start to wonder You know, will I be loved? Will I be forgotten? What does this mean? You want them to get back together. You're hoping, you're trying to create peace between them, rekindle the love, all the things that I think are, like, deeply normal and human.

And you found out about the divorce by seeing a newspaper on your way to school one day.

Yes. That wasn't the plan. They used to have the big news boxes with the newspaper.

So what did it say?

My parents had sat me down that afternoon. That's when they had intended to, but it had come out in the morning.

What did the newspaper say?

I don't remember. I remember the photo. There was a picture of them with a rip down the middle. It was not an easy situation for a child, but that experience I always look for like, what is the positive in any situation? And, you know, the positive for me and my siblings were we really, like, bonded in a different type of way because we were going through it together.

It must be so interesting being in your shoes because, look, me and you are both aware that people, they want to drive a wedge between you and your father. They want a headline. They want you to say something. I can see it within you that you have a real desire to be, like, open and transparent. But if I was in your shoes, I'd be thinking, like, everyone's trying to trip me out. Everyone's trying to make a headline on me and my life. They want to drive a wedge between me and my father. It's difficult. It must be difficult. Even I think about it as a podcast. The podcast gets big. I know if I say the wrong line, doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo, you know?

You know, I think one of the things I've learned under moments in my life of tremendous sort of pressure and scrutiny is to like find the signal in the noise. And that's probably the thing that has been most helpful to me. It can become quite turbulent. I find myself sometimes literally like dancing in the eye of the hurricane. It's been many years of my life, but there's a lot of like peace within me. So I just don't get distracted by the outside noise. And I think if you know what you stand for, then it really is just noise.

When did you have to learn this? Because am I right in thinking this is the first time that I saw the Trump family during The Apprentice? So obviously, you know, growing up as a kid, big fan of business. Yeah, we had the UK Apprentice, but the US one was much more interesting in my opinion. So this is when I first understand who your father is and who you are. What was the sentiment around you as a family at this point? Because again, people can't remember pre-Vortex.

It was the biggest show in the world at one point. It was this massive phenomenon. You know, he had been very famous in sort of New York, and in real estate, and in business circles, but this kind of, like, expanded awareness of him beyond those New York circles onto a global stage. So there was a lot of attention and a lot of excitement. You know, he was very similar to how he is now. He said exactly what he was thinking, which could be polarizing at times, but it's part of what people loved about him. I think the thing about my father and my mother is they're, like, deeply authentic. So you can disagree, but there's a certain amount of, like, respect for the candor of it, um, and the lack of fear to say what you're thinking, because so many people are sort of afraid to be their true selves.

You're more delicate with your words.

Yeah, but I know exactly who I am. That's why the noise doesn't affect me. I'm really proud of the fact that, you know, I've lived through some incredibly intense times where people are taking cheap shots and swinging, and I don't punch back because I don't believe in sort of spending my time in focus, like being combative, like jumping into that particular arena and to like the nasty swirl of social media. It's just, it's not for me. And I've been consistent in that my whole life. And I feel like that sets an amazing example to my children.

Where did you learn that? What is it that you've read? What are the sort of—

You just have to be yourself and you have to be true to yourself. And it's like, I don't allow that noise to distract me. We were talking earlier about stoicism. I think like Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is so informative on so many levels. I mean, here you have somebody who was literally an emperor and he's writing this journal in a tent in a battlefield. So his perspective is amazing. And he once wrote that the soul becomes dyed the color of its thoughts. And I think about that all the time. The cost to me of living in a way that's inconsistent and not aligned with what feels right, what models the right thing for my children, what feels inherently true to me, It's too expensive. It's too expensive for my soul, so I won't do it. So, you know, there have been times when the incoming, and I say, "Well, but that isn't right," or, "This isn't right," or, "I want to correct it." And then I say, like, "What's the cost of doing it?" Thoreau has another great quote. It's something paraphrasing to the effect of, you know, "The cost of anything is the amount of your life you're willing to exchange for it." I focus on those things that, like, elevate my soul, my joy, my happiness, my connection to the people people I love and care about.

Have you always been there? Because you seem more stoic now, but, you know, I have—

like, I'm much more naturally like this. Like, I feel things, like, a lot of things.

You're a bit of an empath, right?

Oh, for sure.

Okay, yeah, it makes sense.

Uh, so I have not always been like this. Like, I had to work to be like this, and I had to, I think, mature, and I had to gain, like, confidence. And it took me a while to really let people in, and I think it was after my children were born that I really experienced a different type of love. It like cracks you open and you're never the same, you know? And you want more of that feeling. Like, I'm very intentional about everything that I do. Even sitting here today, like, I have zero interest in spending 2 hours having a conversation with somebody I think is like a bully because they get good podcasts, you know? Like, I like having conversations with people I think are interesting and curious. But in business as well, like, I'm, You know, I do less things and I do them with a lot more focus and intention.

You've lived an extraordinary life and it's a very anomalous one, but actually the lesson there about being intentional in every sense of the word, not just with what you do every day, but also what you let occupy your mind is one that I think everybody listening might derive a lot of value from because we live, everybody lives on a spectrum of the world clawing at them to deviate from who they are. One end of the spectrum, if I take myself back to when I was, I don't know, 16 years old, the world, other than my mother telling me she wanted me to go be a doctor, lawyer, whatever, the world wasn't really pulling me away from myself. But then on the other end of the spectrum, I'm 33 now, every time I have a podcast guest on, someone's mad at me. And everything I say can be spun in whatever. So you also, on this side of the spectrum, you have to get really, really clear, as you said, on who you are and what matters.

Well, I think that's key. If you don't know who you are, the mob wins.

Oh, 100%.

Because they tell you who you are.

Yeah.

And then you start to believe it. Once you know who you are, you feel sorry for the people who are like screaming at each other on social media. It takes like a beat to get there. Like, I think it takes a lot of work to really understand yourself. And I think sometimes modern society, it that praises sort of speed and fast pace and, you know, accessibility and being available and responding quickly, then people wonder, like, why don't they know themselves? Like, why aren't they connected to something bigger? And they're not taking the time. I take time to shut down and, like, really go inward and ask myself every time I have a big decision, like, what feels right? And even if it's hard to make a decision, like whether it's a no or a yes, if it feels aligned with your values and who you are, like, it never is a mistake, ever.

You grew up in the, you know, with a family and a father that are very prominent. At some point, do you have to make the decision to become your own person? Like, because I was wondering if in that context, you— there's a pressure to kind of, like, be the same person in every regard, to believe all the same things, to live the same life, to go the same path. Is there some point in your journey where you go, do you know what, I've actually got to, like, figure out I can see a little smirk in the corner of your mouth.

Well, no, I think about it with my own children because as a parent, it's very easy to see them as— you know, a lot of parents, they view their children as extensions of themselves, and I really try not to do that. Like, they are their own people, just like I'm my own person. Sometimes in the context of a broader public narrative, everything's sort of commingled and related, but we're all our own people. We obviously have conditioning, we have learned behaviors, we have some of which are great, some of which we spend part of our adulthood unwinding. But we're all, like, fundamentally unique and special. And I work really hard to make sure my kids see themselves, each of them individually, that they know how much I love them as, like, perfect, complete human beings, not I love you because of this accomplishment or because of this sort of external validation that you've received, because you're sort of perfect as you are and like in your essence. So my parents taught me a lot, a lot. I love them so much. I'm like them in some ways. I'm very dissimilar to them in other ways. But even though I was like the peacemaker in our house, I was also like very true to myself.

And they create— and I give them credit for this— they created an environment where, like, dissent was okay. And so I could agree or disagree and share it with each of them and do so respectfully and privately. And that was our home.

You started off in real estate. You worked in a— sounded like to me you were basically an intern at a different real estate company before moving into the family business. And in the family business, you know, heavily male-dominated space, I heard you talk about how actually being a woman being a woman in that context proved to be, in your mind, an advantage of sorts. What is the context there? Again, I'm in 2026 right now, so I don't have the perspective of what it was like to be a young woman in the real estate industry, presuming in New York, some sort of 20 years ago.

Well, I think I was, like, underestimated twice. First, being the child of accomplished parents, there was an expectation that I— on one hand, some people thought I was like a savant. Because I was their child. But most people thought they would be, um, that I would phone it in, that I would lack sort of the thought process, the ambition, the preparedness. So I, I always worked like twice as hard as everyone else to sort of prove my worth and prove my ability to, to be in these rooms where truthfully oftentimes I was in them before I was prepared to be in them. So that was, you know, on my mind, but I think being underestimated is, is not a bad thing. I think it's like a very powerful thing, actually. And it almost always worked to the detriment of the person who underestimated me. So I think if you're somebody who's prepared and somebody underestimates you, well, guess what? They're not. So when you're dealing with people who are extremely accomplished, like, do the work, like, know what you're doing, because probably they haven't done the work when they know they're dealing with you. And I think as a young woman in in real estate, especially, you know, there were women in sales and there were women in marketing, but there were very few women in development and construction and finance and acquisitions.

And I think I harnessed both in the belief, some of it may be stemming from my own insecurity, but the belief that the people would underestimate me, I harnessed that like sort of fear, that sentiment, and I used it to sort of propel me. And I used it to give me motivation. And drive. And then I also would use it against the people who underestimated me, just because I was always prepared. I was overprepared. I always did the work.

I heard you described as, from people that worked with you at the time, a natural-born dealmaker. And this kind of overlays with what you're saying there, that if someone underestimates you, they're actually setting themselves up to be Surprised or—

Well, I'd prefer to be underestimated than overestimated any day of the week.

Give me specifics on what environment that creates for you to then win in a deal.

I think in negotiation, it's incredibly important to know what the other person wants. Sometimes you can learn that through research. Very infrequently, though. You have to listen. You're probably a great negotiator because you're an incredible listener. Silence can also be a weapon. People get very uncomfortable in moments of silence. And then they start talking. And I think the more you can get a person to share with you what they consider to be a win, the more you can potentially accomplish something where you give— where you really have, like, a mutual win-win. Like, I've seen negotiations where you give up very little, but the person feels incredibly happy because it's what they want.

Yeah.

Right? Now, when you're dealing with, like, a negotiation that's purely price, that's kind of different. That's, like, a very simple transaction. It's, you know— But very few negotiations Negotiations are purely that. You know, one of— first and foremost in a negotiation, like, make sure you understand what the other person wants because you may be able to give it to them at very little cost, and then everyone's happy. And I also think there's a lot of value in, like, authentically building relationships. So, you know, some of the best deals I ever did were derivatives of really, like, getting to know someone, like, authentically and genuinely. And they want you to win, you want them to win. I want them to win. And those are really beautiful types of transactions. And I believe in a lot of the projects I'm working on now are about creating things. I like building tangible things. I like creating things that uplift. I like solving challenging problems. And you don't do that alone. You do that through partnerships. You do that through coalitions of people who share your passion and interests, and that's very rewarding.

When you hire people, what are you looking for for your businesses? Are there— I mean, everyone's got their own hiring bias, and it often stems from their past experiences, who's burnt them in the past. When you're looking to hire someone for one of your organizations or for some of the projects we'll talk about in a second, what are the key characteristics?

I think first and foremost, you want someone with a strong sense of self and a strong orientation towards agency. Agency, like somebody who has agency. It's very hard to teach people. You know, you can have a brilliant person, but if they don't have, like, good judgment or if they're not, like, a self-starter, it's very hard to give them that. It's very hard to sort of give them good judgment. And some of it's like street smarts, right? We talked before about, you know, how can you both be trustworthy and not be disappointed or burned too often? You have an instinct about a person and you can read a room, and that's like EQ skills. Those are, those are a little bit harder to teach. So I look for that. I look for good people at the end of the day. Like, I don't want to do a deal with, I don't want to work with people I don't enjoy that I don't think are like good people because I don't want to spend my time with somebody who I don't trust or who I don't respect. So that's like really core and fundamental for me. You know, for somebody who's working with me, I actually tell my kids this all the time.

Because I think so much of the outside world is like, impress me by what you do, like impress me by what you accomplish. The grades, the trophies, the badges of like external validation and success. Like our whole life is oriented towards that, the validation that comes from the outside world. So like I always want my kids to know like how I'm gonna validate them is like, be a good person. Like you wanna impress me? Like be a good person.

Was that the case for you?

Probably not.

I look at the Trump family, for me as an outsider, it looked like a competition between siblings. And even when I think about your father—

Yeah, I think because we're so competitive and hard— Yeah, no, I think it all, like, worked out. And we're all— I like to think, you know, my siblings and I grew up with good values. But no, like, we were in a more— like, I was, like, very competitive with my siblings. Like, you know, my mom was, like, a disciplinarian. There was, like, a high expectation of, like, performance and success.

And when you're in that— when you're calling collect your father, he's reciting your great grades to the room of people he's in.

Yeah. No, no, no. That was— that mattered. And it matters to a lot of parents. And by the way, it's not bad, like, having an incredibly high standard. And to some degree— Yeah, and I think, look, I think it's a lot of parents, like, I think especially, like, my mom was an immigrant to this country. There's, like, a high standard. And she didn't, like, humor fools, right? One of the things I'm most proud of, I look at my daughter, and there's no bar I could set for her that the bar she sets for herself isn't higher. So, like, I actually view my job as a parent with her is to, like, give her permission to not, like, strive for perfection.

You go on to build a business in the jewelry industry and fashion industry. There was— I was reading about— there was a point in your career where you were offered a job by Anna Wintour.

Yeah.

At Vogue. And I think your father did kind of want you to go in that direction, but you wanted to go in the real estate business direction.

She called me actually on the day I graduated from university. I went to Wharton School of Business at University of Pennsylvania, and she offered me a job at Vogue, and I was like incredibly honored and flattered and groggy because she called me at 8 o'clock in the morning, which calling a college student at 8 o'clock in the morning, you might as well call them at 4:30 in the morning, you know, like that was— but I was like deeply aware from when I was a young girl that like I wanted to go into real estate. Life has taken me in different directions, and interestingly now I'm returning with some amazing projects back to my real estate roots, but I love architecture. I love design. I love it as an expression of self. You look at a city skyline and it's an expression of, like, a vision for— of hope and optimism and the amount of courage that took to build each of those buildings. And it's extraordinary.

But you did go into the fine jewelry at 26 years old, and then at 33, you launch Ivanka Trump. And you were in a huge amount of major retailers, including Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus. And that's really also— that's what I knew you first for. I knew you for running a fashion business, which was doing exceptionally well. I think from what I read, it was making hundreds of millions of dollars. And then you shut it down.

Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of like lightning in a bottle. I caught a moment. So I was still sort of leading the charge at our family real estate business. I had young children at home. Or was just starting to have children when I first launched Fine Jewelry. Ultimately, we ended up having 11 different categories: apparel, footwear, sunglasses, fragrance. But we created an accessibly priced line that was feminine and beautiful, but for, like, a multidimensional woman. Like, at the time when I was coming up, the outfits that women were buying for work were so far from aspirational and they couldn't transition with the woman to the date night they would have that evening or after work drinks with their girlfriends. It was like nobody was posting on Instagram like what they were wearing to work. And so we thought like, let's bridge the gap and create something for a modern woman. And it caught fire and it was—

How big did this business get?

An amazing success. We were doing close to $800 million in sales annually. Um, when I shut it down, when I went into government, it was great.

But you were doing $800 million in sales annually when you shut it down.

Yeah.

Why did you shut it down?

I went into government and you always have to sort of be moving forward. And I had built a team of women who were oriented towards forward momentum, and I had to put it on ice. And this was all just part of the rules of complying with the Office of Government Ethics. So they basically look at everything you have and they say, sell this this, put this into a trust, do this, do that, do this. So you do that. And, and for my own business, they weren't allowed to use my image, they weren't allowed to grow the business in terms of new accounts or internationally. And that was fine for a moment, but at the end of the day, you need like growth. And so I thought it would be easier to end on a high note than to allow the business to sort of stagnate. And I also felt like for myself, I'm always looking forward forward. Like, I don't like to look back, and, and I feel the experience of, of this new experience— I mean, serving was so expanding.

Most people wouldn't give up an $800 million annual business to go into government. Why did you?

You know, I—

it's your baby as well, you know.

It's like, yeah, I, you know, I thought about the version of me in 40 years, that when asked the question to serve by my father, who at the time knew no one in Washington, D.C. at all, said no and just proceeded with life as usual. And that didn't, like, sit right with me. So I had no intention of serving. And a few weeks after he won, he asked Jared and me to go with him and sort of help him navigate this new environment. And my eyes grew big and He joked with me, he's like, "But I have to warn you, they're going to come at you hard. They're probably going to hate you. You're too young, you're too—" And he like rattled it. I'm like, "Oh my God." I'm like, "What?" That was like the anti-sale. But, you know, he asked us for help. And I feel incredibly privileged that he gave us the opportunity to serve a country we love so much. We hadn't been expecting it. We hadn't set up our lives for it. We were loving the path we were on and the work we were doing. But you also, you know, can't put your head in the sand and like life had changed.

As much as I'd like to say like, oh, he wins, business as usual, there is no business as usual. Your life has changed.

You didn't choose this though. In fact, you didn't choose most of these things. I look at your life and I go that from a very young age, you've not chosen the context which you've been thrust into because of your father's ambitions. And I mean, I can see it in your face that it kind of rings true.

But I think that's true for all of us, right? To some degree, like, our path is determined by our circumstance. I— Not really.

Not really in the same way.

This is a little bit different with politics and the presidency, but—

But even from 9 years old, you know, you're not choosing to leave school and have reporters treat you like that. And you're not choosing these other things along the way. And then your father decides he wants to be president of the United States. It's not like he had a political career where he, like, built up slowly.

It's like he woke up one day It was drinking water from a fire hose for all of us. It was a lot. Normally you cut your teeth on, you know, some local election as a family, have the experience. The first time he ever ran for office was president and he won. So it was a radical adjustment period for all of us. But boy, did it— Did you think he'd win? Oh yeah, I did. I mean, it was hard to believe myself because everyone was saying that he wouldn't. And I'd say, well, these people probably know what they're talking about. He felt like he would. And, you know, so for me, that time was extraordinary because I really believed— you know, I lived in New York City. I thought I was surrounded by diverse minds and opinions and perspectives and viewpoints. And I really thought I had sort of a lot of exposure to ideas. And his campaign, like, ripped it open for me in that I realized, like, the bubble that I was in. And suddenly I got out into the country, and I heard from people who had very diverse divergent views on a number of issues.

Some of it reinforced my existing beliefs. Other times it completely changed my perspective and orientation. So it was extremely mind-expanding. So when you ask, like, oh, why didn't I go back to what I was doing? I think, like, you know, you, you get thrown into something and you learn and you grow and you change. And, um, and I felt as challenging it was as that moment in my life to, um, to say yes when, when my father asked us to, to go help him, I felt like it was an amazing privilege to be able to serve.

So New Year always has a strange energy to it because people start talking about their goals, fresh starts, and new habits. But the reality is that most people carry the same ideas they had last year into the new year. I'm guilty of that too. And they still don't end up doing anything with them. And I get why. Starting something new, especially especially if it's a business or a project, is overwhelming. Before you start, you're looking for the perfect moment and to be the perfect version of yourself, when really what matters most is taking that first step. If you had an idea for a while, a product, a store, something you've been sitting on, our sponsor Shopify makes it easy to get started because you can build your store, sell on socials, take payments, use AI tools, and manage everything all in one place. So if 2026 is the year you finally back yourself, go to shopify.co.uk .co.uk/bartlett and start selling. And you can sign up for a $1 per month trial right now too. Just go to shopify.co.uk/bartlett. I promise you, you don't need to have it all figured out. You just need to start.

I run multiple companies that have multiple sales teams, and one of the things as a founder of a company that's often confusing is you find it hard to figure out where sales are. So about 10 years ago, I started using Pipedrive in my former company, and it's also the reason why I switched over all of my commercial teams my current media company called steven.com to use Pipedrive as well. Not only do they sponsor this show, but they've been an incredibly effective way of scaling our sales engine over the years. Pipedrive is an easy-to-use intelligent CRM, and at its very core, it makes your sales process visible through one dashboard, a visual pipeline showing every deal, what stage it's in, what needs to happen next, and it's all in real time with no delay. It doesn't magically close the deal for you, of course, but it does replace complexity with clarity. If you wanna join over 100,000 companies already using Pipedrive. You can use my link for a 30-day free trial with no credit card payment needed. Head to pipedrive.com/ceo to get started. That's pipedrive.com/ceo. I'll see you over there. I watched interviews going back to the 1980s where it sounded like your father was playing with the idea.

I remember that Oprah interview that's subsequently gone viral of him saying that, um, if it got so bad in the US he would never rule it out totally. He thought he would win because he's never gone into anything to lose, as I think you said. And even 1980, in an interview with Rona Barret— can't pronounce that name— he said, "Maybe I'd run for president. I don't know." Did you have any sense that this was at all on the horizon? Not really.

That's interesting. No, it was, you know, it was actually where we discussed things that weren't sort of the normal, "How was your day at school?" It was— we spoke a lot about real estate and about and about building, and we were going to go into the family business. And I do think he sort of toyed with it in his mind for a while. I do remember once thinking it was real. I was 16, and I was at boarding school, and I called him up. I go, "Oh my God, I read that you're going to run for president. This is going to ruin my life." I think I was, like, hysterical. And he's like, "Don't worry about it. Not happening." You know, I think he was— I think it was— he was thinking about the options he was given as a voter, and he was dissatisfied. And I think he was beginning to formulate his perspective on what he would do differently. But it was not— my childhood, that was not an ambition of his that was at least articulated to us. You know, some of the ideas— you mentioned that Oprah interview— he was talking about trade policy being deeply unfair to American workers.

His viewpoint remained consistent over time and remains consistent to this day on exactly that, about trade policy. Many of the things he articulated then are very true for him to this day.

Then in 2015, when you were 33, my age, you learned 2 weeks before he announces that he's going to announce that he wants to run for president. Again, how do you receive that? Is there not like an existential panic? Like you had when you said—

We came together as a family in Bedminster and he shared with us his intention and he asked me to introduce him. And I said to him, I'm like, well, are you really doing this? Are you really going to do this? He was coming down the escalator and I'm trying to like introduce him and give this speech. I'm like, is he going to get up here and actually do it? It was so quick. But I think, you know, I think he had debated it in his mind for a long time. And then when he pulled the trigger, it was full steam.

Life hasn't been the same since in many respects.

No, it hasn't. But it's been— I mean, it's been an extraordinary ride. There have been highs and there have been lows, but we've done a lot of living. So a lot of living, a lot of living, of which you spent 4 years working in the White House.

Some of your sort of key headline achievements are doubling the child tax credit from $1,000 to $2,000. Benefiting 40 million Americans with an average of $2,200 per year, helping secure paid family leave for federal workers, helping pass the Great American Outdoors Act, which is one of the largest conservative bills since the National Park System was created, leading efforts to modernize career and technical education, providing $1.3 billion annually to over 13 million students, and helping to pass 9 pieces of legislation combating human trafficking and child exploitation, and then it ended. Were you happy it ended? Because I sat with Michelle Obama, she seemed happy.

I left it all on the field, you know. I, I don't look back and say, like, I, I don't have regrets. Like, I worked as hard as I could, and I'm incredibly proud of what I was able to accomplish in, in those 4 years, and Like, I don't regret it in any way. But it's, you know, it's a sacrifice to my children. And it's hard work, you know? So I feel both incredibly privileged for the opportunity, but also I don't have what they refer to as Potomac fever. You know, there's some people that once they have the experience of being in those rooms and close to that type of power, they just, like, hang around around the hoop constantly, like cycling back in. I feel like I wasn't expecting to serve in this capacity, at least not at this stage of my life. My father asked me to help him. We uprooted our lives and went and did just that and scored a lot of wins. I mean, you think about something like the child tax credit, 40 million American families benefited from that policy, an average of $2,400 in their pockets. That's extraordinarily meaningful and consequential, and I'm so proud to have been able to do that.

9 pieces of human trafficking legislation, the work that I did around vocational education and skills training, which is all the more relevant as we sort of surf the oncoming tsunami that is AI. You know, the fact that we were able to get the private sector to commit to skilling or reskilling 16 million American workers, the fact that we We were able to facilitate the creation of a million apprenticeship opportunities in the United States. Like, these are deeply meaningful. So I'm so proud of my service. I feel deeply honored that he trusted me to pursue these different verticals and to work alongside of him. I know that it's really hard. And for my children, you know, my first responsibility is to be their mom. It was true then as well, of course, and, and I did the best I could every single day to be everywhere I needed to be. But my kids are a different age now, and there's a finite period of time before they leave our home. I think, you know, I look at my teenage daughter, she's 14, and even if like a quarter of my interactions with her through her closed bedroom door.

Like, I need to be present and I need to be there. It's not theoretical for me because now I know the sacrifice that they would have to bear, the cost to them of if I went back into service, and I'm not willing to let them pay that price. So for me, it's like actually a rather easy decision. I made it immediately, you know, that that in this moment I'm where I need to be. It's also a different time, you know. Now my father has a deep bench of people raising their hand who want to help and participate. That wasn't true before. He's really refined his policies, his beliefs, and has a lot of conviction in terms of what he wants to do. So, so I feel like for him it's amazing. He's got the team he needs. And, um, and for me, I I think, you know, my priorities are my family, and that just feels really good and right for me.

What weren't you prepared for? I asked the same question to Michelle when she was here about, you know, you get that phone call from your dad and he says, come, come help. One has a vision of what that might look like, but there's surprises. Michelle talked to me about so many of the things she had no idea would be the case.

I wasn't prepared for— you're not prepared for any of it. There's nothing that trains you for the experience. And I think one of the things you realize pretty quickly is like power, just like money, makes people more of what they already are. And you see that very much in playing out in politics and in life, right? I also think you realize people are just people. Like you look at, and I had exposure to some of the great leaders of business and now I was being exposed to to leaders on a global stage of countries. Sometimes they were monarchies, other times they were elected democracies, and then all sorts of variants of that, you know, were. And you realize at the end of the day, like, people are people, you know. Some of them, their kids don't speak to them. They got in a fight with their wife that morning. They're, you know, they're just people. And now some of them feel extraordinarily historical. Historic. You meet a person and say, this person feels consequential. Others of them, you leave and say, I wonder how this person ever got elected to this, you know, high office.

But I think it removes the veil and the mystery, and I think it removed for me a lot of any of, like, intimidation I may have in, like, interacting with another human being.

Your security situation must have changed quite considerably. It did, yeah. You know, because politics is a dangerous game. I think I heard something that said being that being president is the most dangerous job in the world when you look at the fatality rate. And obviously we've seen political assassinations in this country even in recent times. But your father was also shot at, hit in the ear when he was on the campaign trail more recently. What's that been like? And what does it actually— can you give me any specifics on what that actually means? When you become involved in politics, how does life change from a security perspective?

Yeah. I think, well, it changes radically. Now we're protected by U.S. Secret Service, and I'm so grateful to the men and women who take care of my family, took care of my father, protected him, and risking their own lives to do so, and now do so for me and my children. So very grateful to all of them. But it's scary. We live in very troubling times. And like, you know, the fact that there is a correlation between service and violence is terrible in and of itself. But that's the world we live in. So, you know, I have to acknowledge that reality and defend my family as best I can and make sure they're protected. And I'm very fortunate the Secret Service are the best in the world at doing that.

Where were you in 2024, in July, when you heard the news that your father had been shot in the ear? There was an assassination attempt on his life. Do you remember where you were? And what's that like as a daughter? What are all the feelings and thoughts?

I was in Bedminster, New Jersey, and there was a lot of commotion, and the televisions were on, so I saw it all on TV. Almost immediately, not in my house. I actually don't love watching television, but out by the pool in the bistro. And it was almost real time. It was before he had stood back up that I had seen what was transpiring. And two of my children were there. So, you know, my first reaction was to turn them away. But it was incredibly difficult. Interestingly, I knew real time in that moment that he was fine. Like, I had— I just knew that, like, it wasn't his time. So I was horrified and I was scared and I was protective of my children, but I also So I didn't believe, like, the worst possible outcome had transpired, thank God. And thank God it hadn't. And then I saw him that night when he came home from the hospital because he was also staying. That morning he had left from Bedminster, and that evening he returned after he left the hospital. And it was late. 1, 2 o'clock in the morning. And Jared and I stayed up and we met his, his car as he was pulling in.

And I just feel, feel like just incredibly lucky that he was protected on that day. But it's, you know, when you can't take things for granted in life, and I've learned that in numerous ways, that being one of them. When my mom passed prematurely, when my husband had a scare with cancer. You know, all of these challenges that remind you how finite and how precious every moment of this life we live are make you realize you just can't take anything for granted. And I think as you move through them and, you know, God willing, you're able to and we were so fortunate that day that, that this was a failed attempt to take his life, not a realized one. But you just— I think you, you recommit to sort of love and connection and to a recognition of how short our time here on Earth is and how you have to value Someone shooting at your dad and trying to kill your dad.

This is quite a difficult question to ask, but it's like, if— Most of us will never be able to relate to the fact that members of the public want our parents to be deceased. And that's the reality of the situation for your father, is someone shot at him, was trying to execute him publicly. And I wonder how that, again, doesn't make you be negative to the world? Because I don't allow it to.

What does that accomplish, being negative towards the world? I think that brings more negativity into the world.

Even for the person that shot at your father?

There's a lot of sickness there, and I, you know, I think that forgiveness is a difficult thing in, in this regard, but I think you have to— his living was a blessing, so I could look at what happened and be rightfully traumatized by the experience. And nobody could really argue with that, but you have to— you have to move through it. And on the opposite side of that is the fact that he's with us today, that he didn't die, that my father is alive. And that is an extraordinary blessing for me as his daughter. Daughter. In life, you have a choice only in how you respond, and I choose to see the positive outcome that, that transpired and dwell there.

The mind plays out scenarios, right? The mind plays out the scenario that where he, he didn't make it, whether he turned his head in the other direction, the bullet hit him. And you presumably have played out that scenario of what how different life would have been.

Well, seeing it on repeat for months on television, on the news, was certainly not the easiest thing. And that's part of why I just— even before, I never loved watching the news. I'll read the news, but no, I mean, he's here. You know, really felt like a miracle and a blessing, and that's what I focus on.

I can see the emotion again in you, which is, again, it's fascinating to me because I've I've heard, you know, people around you speak about it, but the emotional toll seems to be more still sort of present in you about that incident than it does about other people that I've heard speak about this. Well, he's my father.

He's my father, and he almost lost his life that day, but he didn't. And I feel truly grateful for that.

And in this second season of his presidential career, you decide that you want to pursue Many other things, many other things, many other business developments and real estate developments. You step away from politics in 2022, I believe. You announced that you would not be returning for the third election campaign. You said, this time around, I'm choosing to prioritize my young children and the private life we're creating as a family. I do not plan to be involved in politics. You also said on Lex's podcast, politics is a pretty dark world. There's a lot of darkness, a lot of negativity, and it's just really at odds with what feels good to me as a human being. I was thinking this earlier on, about 30 minutes ago. I was thinking your nature, as I've known you, seems to be the antithesis of this type of world. Like fame. Totally true.

You know? There's this like gladiatorial aspect of it that's just like not for me. I care deeply about policy, about helping people, and I think there's all sorts of ways to do that. And I'm doing that now in the private sector, but— I don't like politics, but I, I do care about policy quite deeply, and I've tried to focus on, on that element of service.

And do you feel the need to express— you never do, because you don't punch back at the world publicly, which is, I think, something to be admired. And I've learned actually quite a lot from everything you said there about not feeling the need to, like, punch back at the world.

It takes Training. It like takes real training. I was actually reading, uh, recently, uh, about the crow, and I thought it was like a great metaphor for life. So crow's like a highly intelligent animal, extraordinarily so in some cases, but it can get aggressive and territorial, and it's one of the only animals that will actually attack an eagle. Like, a crow will go and just sometimes because it's being territorial and other times for fun, and the crow will actually like mob the eagle and it will land on its back and it will start pecking it. And the eagle's response to this, which naturally the eagle's many times over larger than the crow, isn't to like twist and turn and knock the crow off or defend itself and then go on offense. It's just to fly up. And it flies up while the crow continues to, like, just peck at its, at its back. It flies up and up, and the crow is not built for high-altitude flight. So at a certain point, as the eagle flies up not expending any energy in the counterattack, the crow just falls off. It can't sustain the altitude. So I, and I kind of love that analogy for life because you have a choice, you know.

You can turn around, you could fight back, probably the eagle would win. Or you can just, you know, play the game on your own terms. And I think about that sometimes, and I thought it was like a brilliant metaphor for dealing with the noise.

And you trained that muscle for sure.

So there was a time when you did care for sure, because there was a time when I was just like confused. I'm like, well, but I didn't even do that. Like, what are you talking about? Like, I don't even know what you're— and then there's a sense of, well, that's unfair. Fair. Like, that's an unfair attack. And then you realize, like, a lot of it's unfair, especially in politics. Like, it's just like a team sport, and people attack, and, you know, and, and people also, you know, put you up on a pedestal. And you just can't get distracted by either. You just have to be yourself, and you have to fly up, let the crows fall off, and, um, and that's it. That's all you can do.

Do any of you remember a conversation I had on this podcast with anthropologist Dr. Daniel Lieberman? It was one of the most viewed conversations conversations of all time on The Diary of a CEO. And interestingly, the most replayed moment of that entire conversation was when I talked about a specific pair of shoes that I wear. They're called barefoot shoes, and they're made by a brand called Vivo Barefoot, who have become one of the sponsors of this show now. All of their shoes have significantly reduced support, which gives my feet the opportunity to strengthen just by wearing them. And research from Liverpool University backs this up. They've shown that wearing Vivobarefoot shoes for 6 months can increase foot strength by up to 60%. So if you want to start strengthening your feet, which are the foundation for the rest of your body, head to vivobarefoot.com/doac. And if you do that, I'll give you 15% off when you use my code STEVENB15. Use that code at checkout, and I'll also give you a 100-day money-back guarantee. Steven B, 15. Enjoy. We have finally caved in. So many of you have asked us if we could bundle the conversation cards with the 1% Diary.

For those of you that don't know, every single time a guest sits here with me in the chair, they leave a question in the Diary of a CEO, and then I ask that question to the next guest. We don't release those questions in any environment other than on these incredible conversation cards. These have become a fantastic tool for people in relationships, people in teams, in big corporations, and also family members to connect with each other. With that, we we also have The 1% Diary, which is this incredible tool to change habits in your life. So many of you have asked if it was possible to buy both at the same time, especially people in big companies. So what we've done is we've bundled them together and you can buy both at the same time. And if you want to drive connection and instill habit change in your company, head to thediary.com to inquire and our team will be in touch. You are very different from your father. Now listen, I know you, you know, you I love your father deeply, and I've watched you in every interview you've ever done to talk to that love.

And I have zero, exactly zero desire to ask you any questions or ask anything that's gonna try and drive a wedge or get you to say something that I think, you know, is not fair. But the thing I find interesting is that, like, how you make your way in the world and, like, become your own person when you do have this derivative noise that's trying to define you through things that you have never even actually done. Yeah. And I just find that fascinating, like, how— Life has clearly made you a Stoic for this very reason because you have to deal with, I guess, to some degree, being characterized in a certain way for actions that you yourself haven't taken. So one has to become a Stoic or else how could one possibly survive? Like we all deal, I think, on microscopic levels with like— Found the eye of the hurricane.

Yeah, yeah. I think, but like, I sometimes like feel a lot of gratitude for it because I think sometimes you keep being taught a lesson until you learn it. And I think, as somebody who always wanted peace and harmony. And I think I needed to, like— maybe it took this level of intensity to be like, "Okay, you know, like, peace and harmony within the context that I can help facilitate." You know, like, I can't control something so much bigger than that. So sometimes, like, maybe that was my medicine, you know? Did you go to therapy? Not in my childhood. Childhood. In— actually, as an adult, I have a lot of friends who are unbelievable, either teachers, professors, therapists, and I have like a very growth-oriented mindset, as you could probably tell. Like, I'm always looking to learn about myself and about the world. And so they've provided unbelievable perspective for me over the years.

I ask that because I imagine there's lots of people watching now contend with their own struggles? Yeah. Similar to that, dealing with the outside world or—

I think therapy can be amazing. I think you have to have the right therapist and somebody who helps you sort of process and move through. I don't think it's like healthy to linger too long. Like, I think you have to move forward.

When did you decide to start seeing a therapist?

Um, in my adulthood, like as an adult. And it was more just as like another tool for me, in the same way that I meditate. You know, I view it as, as an opportunity to like to do an internal inventory.

Was there a catalyst? There's often a catalyst when I interview people. Something happened, they realized that they needed more tools, you know.

You know, I think some of the challenges around Jared's health. I just left Washington. Our life was in flux. Jared was diagnosed with thyroid cancer for a second time. And then my mother passed. And I wanted to make sure— I'm really good at, like, being tough. And I'm really good at at kind of compartmentalizing. So it was more just like a check with myself that I was also taking time to like, you know, sort of like look inward and, uh, and like nurture myself. So it was not— it was not particularly like formal, um, but it was more, you know— and I think when you can speak to people you trust who are knowledgeable and just make sure you're like taking time to like really heal and not just move forward.

You strike me as someone that spent a lot of time being tough on the outside.

Um, because I'm like tough and super soft at the same time. Yeah, but I see that. But I, I've kind of— but that's like where, you know, I have to like watch myself from— because my life has always had such intensity, like I can like move through things. Like I sometimes have to pull myself back and say like, process. Because I don't believe that you ever put something in a box, I think that thing that you're hiding from yourself is with you every time you make a bad decision. And like driving the bus, you know, like it's— you may not be like fully conscious of it, but it's, it's like there. So you better unpack it, um, and as close to real time as possible, I think, the better. Yeah.

And in your context, I imagine as well you can't just offload like the average person does in every context. Yeah. Because there's consequences to that, whether it's trusting people, whether it's the media trying to get something on you, what, you know, whoever it might be. So, and then, you know, you're in a family where, you know, it's important to keep a straight face, especially in public a lot. And I was watching the footage from—

yeah, people think I'm like, have like a sort of like a stoic look in public. I'm very—

yeah, but I, but I haven't spent time with you behind the scenes. You do, you have this sort of a bit of a dichotomy in the sense that your— there's a real, like, pure, um, soft, empathetic soul. And then it appears to me that life has demanded, for the survival in the context you've been in, that you pop a mask on in front of that to keep a straight face and a tough demeanor and to not punch back and to suppress that in certain contexts. Because frankly, you kind of have to if you're in the shoes that you've had to fill. And I guess one can keep that, that mask, that tough exterior on too long.

Yeah, to the point that I think you actually see it with a lot of politicians. They feel inauthentic because they are, you know, they've experienced so much that they, they never allow the masks to slip. Yeah, I think one of the things that makes my father so unique is how is he so authentic in a world where so few people are, like, in that profession, that realm. And they're like, almost like you look at— they feel like they're robots, the way they speak, the way they interact, the way they engage. Oftentimes you see that when you're with them one-on-one, as, as you do, as it comes across, like, on a debate on a television set. Um, so I think there's a balance. Like, I don't think you need to be like, your most vulnerable self in the public? Like, why? Like, what is— I think you want to be authentic, but I think, like, you should— like, you have to guard things about yourself, about your family. And I think that's, like, healthy and good. And I do think there is a part of me that's like, there's never been, like, uh— there's no room for error, you know?

Like, even as a child, like, growing up in the public eye, I was always nervous about doing something and embarrassing my parents. And then politics, and you have to be perfect. And any slip-up is completely weaponized against you. So you become very careful publicly. I think the mistake, though, is people get confused and they lose a sense of themselves, and they bring that into their relationships, like, off the public stage. And, and I think that's really unfortunate.

You mentioned One of the catalyst moments for you seeking out some sort of more professional support was the death of your mother in 2022. Another beautiful photo of her wonderful hair as well.

Try not to cry again. It's okay. She's extraordinary. She was extraordinary. It's okay. She lived a good life though, you know. I tell myself with my mom, she like really lived. She had fun. Um, so she taught me a lot about just like, you know, the presence I talk about, about just like bringing intention to what you do, bringing— sorry. Um, she, uh, she was very herself and she was very joyful and she loved to dance and she loved to play. And so, um, she lived, uh, she lived a good life.

It's a really— it's an unbelievably tragic way to lose a parent, is suddenly and unexpected when they are strong. I mean, it says a lot that your grandmother, which is her mother, still alive, almost 100 years old, and she lost her life at 70 to falling down the stairs in her apartment.

By the way, I said my grandmother was 98. She's 99. Wow. Crazy. It's amazing. Yeah, no, it's, it's very challenging. And, you know, grief is just losing a parent. It's, it like hits different, you know, um, especially unexpectedly, especially sort of post-COVID, which like kind of robbed so many of us of so many years. You know, some— for some people, they sort of sheltered together, um, and it actually created connection between generations. And, you know, unfortunately, I was— she was in New York and I was in Washington, so, um, there was the— there was distance there, just geographically. Um, but, um, but, you know, I, I I really, like, we really, I was telling you before, we really keep her memory alive. Like, I really took the time to think about her, not through the eyes of the child who idolized her fully, but through the eyes of an adult who saw her clearly, her strengths, her challenges. And like, I think about like my role as a parent to my own children is to sort of stand guard against, like, to, to make sure they're exposed to all the elements of her that were amazing and, and share the stories and remind them.

Um, and also to, like, kind of like a lioness, stand guard against the passing on of, of, you know, challenges she had and, and struggles and And so I try to do that with my own family.

Have you grieved properly?

Yeah. 'Cause you're very busy. I think it's, no, I think it's super important. And that's part of the reason I really got introspective. I think wherever there's discomfort, that's where you have to go. And, you know, I would talk about her and start to cry, just like I'm still doing, but in a different kind of way, you know? Like I was avoiding, for a moment, a very short moment, because I recognized in myself, like, the discomfort. And, like, you have to, like, unlock that. And you have to really make the time to think about and talk about and process.

On the business side of things, you have started in 2023, I believe, at 41 years old, you co-founded Planet Harvest with one of your friends, Melissa Ackerman, inspired by your experiences creating the USDA PA's Farmers to Families Food Box program during COVID-19. When I look at all that you do, you're doing this incredible project in Albania to develop the land there. You are investing in technology companies. You've got this Planet Harvest project, which is incredible. And then you've got a family, which you talk about standing in guard in front of them and so on and so forth. How do you balance all of this stuff? How does one balance it?

You don't. Like, balance is elusive. Like, I think of balance, it's like a scale, it's gonna tip. You're one child's flu away from, like, complete imbalance, right? Where you get the call from the school nurse and your son has to come home unexpectedly, or there's, like, a roadblock in a project you're working on, You know, you can't— striving for balance is not like a practical pursuit. I think what I strive for is to live a life that aligns with my priorities and to have more days than not that I feel like I've done just that. And I think if you get that right most of the time, you're doing pretty well, because balance it doesn't work. It's just like our lives are too hectic and there's too much outside of our control to maintain that equilibrium.

I'm so curious as to where you've, you know, I know you've read a lot of stoicism and you read a lot of books and you've been to therapy, but you know, you contend with a lot, businesses, investing, the real estate projects, all the family stuff, the broader noise. Yeah. And you've really— much of what I've learned about you is that you've really managed to center yourself on yourself. You've managed to sort of pull yourself inwards in a world that pulls all of us outwardly. And is there a particular book you might advise people to read about this, or is that— or they just have to have life hit them?

Well, I think, you know, religion for many people provides a beautiful framework, whether it's the Bible, the Torah, the, you know, of, of like, be a good be a good person. Like, really live a purpose-driven, meaningful life. So I think there's so much wisdom there. And I think, you know, we talked about the Stoics. I think they're some of the great guides. I also love some of the Eastern philosophies. Like, I love Lao Tzu, and the Tao Te Ching is an amazing— it kind of reminds me of like the— it's like similar to the philosophy of of jiu-jitsu around just sort of presence and not sort of fighting what is. You know, so much of suffering comes from a rejection of like what is, like fighting something that it just is fact, as opposed to sort of that which is within our control. So I'm actually very drawn to sort of Buddhism and Taoism, and I personally feel like very alive. Like I think you look at, if you think back over the last week, and I don't know what this is for you, but you think back over the last week, maybe even the last month or the last day, like when you were in like a flow state, when you felt most alive, like that's your medicine.

Like that's like you in your essence. But so I try to also like put myself in those situations as much as possible. And make sure to bring that into my life.

I'm fascinated by Planet Harvest. Thank you. Because you could have done so much with the leverage and experience that you have, and you chose to build a business called Planet Harvest, which you can find at planet-harvest.com, that is helping to reduce food waste and creating change for farmers across the country. Why, of all the things that you could have aimed at, and I know you're aiming at many at once, but why is Planet Harvest central to your mission at the moment? Thank you.

I mean, this is truly like a mission-driven passion and pursuit of mine. And I think I told you before that like there's nothing better than being obvious by being contrarian. And that's sort of how Planet Harvest was born. I saw through the COVID pandemic, I got really close to the farmers because I created this farmer-to-family Food Box program that created grants that would enable farmers to sell their perishable produce to third parties, distributors, NGOs, churches, who would then get it to the last mile of needs, ensuring that when people needed food, the food in the fields wasn't going to waste by being tilled under, as we saw in the early days of the pandemic. You know, the supply chain shut down, so the restaurants were closed, the airlines, the hotels. So the farmers had no place to send their food and couldn't afford to take it out of the fields. So we created a grant program to enable that connection. But it really got me very close at a farm level to the farmer and their experience. And obviously that was a catastrophic time when there was just zero demand. But I started seeing even in a normalized situation on the amount of waste that happens on a field level and the amount of food, beautiful, nutritious, perfect food that's left to rot in the fields while so many communities want for that form of nutrition.

And I met a woman who's CEO of the company and we decided to co-found an effort together to utilize this excess and create demand for it and get it into the ecosystem. Of systems supporting the environment, supporting these great American farmers. I'll just give you one example. I mean, strawberries. 400 million pounds of strawberries every year get left in the fields, not even taken out and given, not because they're imperfect. They just don't meet a really rigid cosmetic specification that's defined by retailers oftentimes 20, 30, 40 years ago so that everything's very standardized. It's just a great way to solve a problem, provide incremental revenue for farmers, which is so needed in such a tough business. So we're really proud of the work we're doing there.

It's a beautiful, beautiful course. I'm going to link below if anyone wants to learn more, as many details as they can about the project and ways others can get involved, whether they're retailers or farmers or anyone that's interested in getting involved. Avonka, we have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they leave it for. And the question that has been left for you— it assumes you are a parent, so thankfully you are— um, is if your oldest child came to you and said they wanted to follow in your footsteps, what are the 3 pieces of advice you would give them that would increase their probability of happiness and success?

Oh, that's a great question. Um, I think first and foremost— That's your eldest? Yes. Arabella, is it? Arabella.

So what would you say to Arabella? She says she wants to be an entrepreneur and an investor and—

I think first, you have to love it. I think especially if you want to be an entrepreneur, like, the amount of work and dedication and grind, the challenges, the responsibility as you build a business for other people's livelihoods, it's enormous. And it's— It's, you know this, I mean, it can be very heavy to carry. And I have never seen someone at the peak of their game who doesn't absolutely love what they do. And I've seen a lot of brilliant people, I went to school with many of them, who were way smarter than anyone else in the class who flamed out by going in a direction that they were capable and proficient in, but not passionate about. So it has to, you have to You want it, because if you don't, somebody who's less, perhaps less capable, perhaps less smart, they'll work twice as hard. And like, you can't compete with that. So that's number one. I think number two is you can't imitate anyone. You have to be yourself. And we've talked a lot about like knowing thyself, but actually Naval, who's a friend of mine who's great, He talks about, like, as an entrepreneur, the importance of authenticity and how it's like, it's the key.

Like, when you're copying, you're losing. Like, you have to be yourself and then nobody can compete with you. And so I think you have to sort of find yourself, be yourself. You can't be derivative of anything else. Of course you can learn from others, but you have to blaze your own course. And as an entrepreneur building something new, you have to have also like a tremendous amount of resilience through that process. And, you know, it's, um, that's nuanced in and of itself because that doesn't mean like you have to wear blinders and go when you know it's right. But you have to also— I mean, they talk about the famous pivot, right? Like, like, you also have to pivot sometimes, right? So it's not, not to like a fault. You have to still be receptive to to sort of incoming information. But for the most part, like, you have to go. And I think for a young person, I would tell my daughter, you know, you're gonna have to believe in yourself before the world believes in you. Like, you can't wait for the world to believe in you because if you haven't believed in yourself, you'll never get there.

So you have to start. And that's why, like, I love talking. Like, one of the things I've been doing a lot of is investing in technology businesses, AI, robotics, incredible fields founders and entrepreneurs doing, building generationally defining products, um, and, and developing these amazing ideas. And I love seeing the belief and the conviction they have in themselves. And sometimes, like, it's like their experience doesn't match, like, their confidence, but, like, you have to start somewhere. And if you don't, like, believe in yourself, you'll never get out of the gate. So, so believe in believe in yourself, charge forward, and then when you start putting up some Ws and getting some wins, like, the rest of the world may or may not start to believe in you as well.

Ivanka, thank you. Thank you.