Transcript of Jana Kramer | How Adversity Builds Determination and Discipline

When he was attacking me, he was on top of me where I couldn't breathe. And there was a scene where Austin was attacking me and he put the pillow over my head. Wow. Just like freaked out. He's like, I'm so sorry. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm like, yeah, I was just— but I ended up going out and crying because I was just— it was too— it felt too real. When we went to the preliminary hearing or whatever it was, my abuser was in court, but I never got to say anything to him. And so that scene where I'm speaking to Austin in it, being able to have that power moment and to, to say what I needed to say, it was, it healed me even in that situation.

What's up everybody? We're back here again at Nashville Creative Spaces at Rory Vaden's place, Brand Builders. I have with me today an amazing human being, someone who has really pushed through things and has been very successful in her careers. Multi-faceted talent. I have Jana Kramer with me. I've been following her career for a lot of years, and it's just great to sit down with her and chat a little bit. So, Channa, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I mean, you just called out Alex Dupré, and that made me laugh. Did you actually watch the show?

Did I watch One Tree Hill?

It's so—

do you want to go there with me?

I—

okay, yes, multiple times, all the way through.

Multiple times.

Obsessed.

I can't— oh, there's so many, because I, I never watched any of the seasons before. I mean, I only watched a couple episodes just to kind of learn, but when I auditioned, but then it was even afterwards I only watched a couple episodes, but I was like, you know what, I want to, I want to rewatch. I want to see what— because we go to these conventions and they're just talk about the show, and I'm like, I want to, I want to watch what the, what the hype is all about and see the show and, and understand it a bit. Because I didn't even know that the two were brothers for like the longest time, even when I was on the show. I was like, oh, Chad Michaels and Maurice, but that was your brother on the show? Like, it was just— I should have known so much. I should have done a little bit studying. But, um, I went to start and I'm like, there is way too many seasons and episodes. Yeah, like, uh, 44 episodes, like a season.

Yeah, I think like— yeah, it's like something like 22 to 25, and that's a lot. It's a lot. But no, um, it's one of my favorite shows.

Wow.

Um, I've watched it multiple times all the way through. In fact, I keep telling my wife, I'm like, can we do this over again? Can we watch it?

That's how I am with Sons of Anarchy.

Oh really?

I am obsessed with Sons of Anarchy.

So I'm a big One Tree Hill That's so funny.

What did you love about it?

I loved the, the diversity of feelings throughout the whole thing. It wasn't just rainbows and sunshine. Let's do this show about this, these high school people, and they're gonna fall in love and everything's gonna be peachy.

There's death, there's violence, there's, you know, betrayal, school shooting or school bombing too, or something.

Yeah, there was no school shooting things that— and then Um, you know, the dad, you know, they lit him on fire and like, like, so it's, it's very dark at times. Oh, then the car crash.

Oh yeah, I do know about that, you know.

And you know, so it's like when you see all these things, it really pulls you in. It's like, yo, any of this stuff can happen at any given time to anybody. And it made it super relatable.

Yeah. So yeah, that's why I loved Okay, how much did you hate my character when I came in? I, I, there was—

I didn't, I didn't like it. Yeah, it's all authentic reactions here. No, I didn't like it. I didn't like their character at the beginning, but I didn't either. Yeah, I was like, dude, Julian's taken, bro, like what's going on? But then you can—

oh, and you saw Julian then in Gaslit?

That's what— dude, I'm telling you.

Got it, got it, got it, got it.

Yes.

All right, I'm following.

Yeah, so it's, um, your character evolved.

Yeah.

You know, and I think that's what the great part about your character. But not at the beginning. I'm like, man, this, this poor girl, man. It wasn't a dislike, but it was like, she's got this void she's trying to fill right now. And, um, but you were a genius in it.

Thank you.

Yeah, you're good. You're great in everything.

Thank you.

Like, really, truly, truly. So, um, you know, that show, to me, that's I don't know, I just, I just feel like it just, it parallels real life.

Yeah, I should, I should maybe get my husband. We should, we should sit down and actually do it. Yeah, watch it.

Oh, 100%. I think I know more about One Tree Hill than you do.

Yo, 100%, 1,000%.

But it's funny because like, but I can relate as well because I, I shoot something, I do it It goes off, people love it. I don't watch it back. Yeah, you know, I, I, I did Jay Leno last June. I didn't watch that show.

Why not? I don't know. You should. That's a big deal. Jay Leno, you know, it was a big deal.

It was fun, you know. Then Tony Goldman was last week. That was fun.

I mean, incredible. He's of Scandal. I mean, I loved that show. Loved.

That's another, that's another one from start to finish, I think, 5 times.

Yeah, I could do that one.

I fell asleep. I started watching last night. I watched it again a little bit, but then I turned on A Country Christmas Romance.

Oh gosh.

And I fell asleep, not 'cause it was boring, because it was late. It was late. I needed my beauty sleep. But it was just like, you know, 'cause my buddy Matthew Hedden, he's like, where are you going? You don't know him. I don't know him. He's a very close friend of mine.

Okay, okay.

He goes, what are you doing right now? I was like, well, I'm getting ready to go to Nashville. I was like— he's like, what do you— what do you got? I was like, well, I have Janet Kramer. He goes, dude, would you please tell her I loved A Country Christmas Romance? I'm like, are you serious? He goes, absolutely, she was fantastic. But no, it was just like a— I started watching it, it was actually pretty funny, like the way it evolved.

But I was pregnant with my son in that.

Really?

Yeah, my son, my, my third son Roman. And, uh, the 2-year-old The 2-year-old, right? He's now 2. But it, uh, it was, was on Lifetime and then Netflix acquired it last year, so that's when it charted. It was like, wow, this is crazy. Uh, but yeah, I was, uh, very pregnant in that. No way. Yeah, a lot of flowy tops. And then when we're on the hay bale having that little sex scene—

sorry, I didn't, I didn't— yeah, watch that part, timestamp it.

Yeah, but, um, you ruined it.

I thought Colby was still giving you the cold shoulder.

No, he didn't.

Damn it.

But it was, it was so uncomfortable because 'cause I'm like trying to like hide the belly, like in that shot.

I spent years trying to hide my belly. It never worked.

It always showed.

It always showed. Can't hide it. But no, so, you know—

Tell your friend I said thank you.

I will, absolutely. But it was crazy how we connected.

Yes.

Right? And because I watched your new movie on Netflix, "Gaslit by My Husband," and I'm like, That's an interesting title. I go, wait, is that Janet Kramer? I'm gonna watch it. Ah, and then, you know, your, um, your co-star, um, Austin Nichols. Austin Nichols, also from One Tree Hill.

I'm like, Julian Baker from One Tree Hill.

I'm like, I am 1 billion percent watching this. It was so good. And I, and I love that it was a true story. And, um, the movie absolutely blew up. Blew up.

It was crazy.

and it was crazy to me because I didn't think you were going to read my message. I had no idea.

I read my DMs.

That's crazy. I wish more people were like that in the industry because there's a lot of relationships and friendships that you can make. And for the context for the audience, that was what, maybe 2 weeks ago?

Yeah. And now you're here.

And now we're here. We're in Nashville and we're hanging out. So a phenomenal movie. What led you to— to, you know, really go for that role. And, uh, you executed it perfectly.

Thank you.

It was, it was insane.

Um, I had done a couple movies with Lifetime before that, and when I was talking to the president and one of the senior, um, execs there, they said, you know, what kind of movies do you want to do? Because at that time I'd only really done Christmas movies and then one just kind of a thriller. And I said, you know, I really want to do a movie around domestic violence because I've been in a a domestic violence relationship, a few of them. And so it's just really important to me to raise awareness in that area. And they said, you know, we just got a script that just came to our desk that might be perfect for you. Wow. And it was Morgan's story. When I read it, I'm just like, yes, like, sign me up! This is exactly what I want to do. And, um, when we talked about who to have as the husband, I brought up Austin because I— he's my favorite scene partner that I worked with on One Tree Hill, but also just in movies too. Like, he's so— um, I felt, felt really safe with Austin, and I knew that to take on a role like that role, I needed someone to feel safe with.

Like, with the attack scene and just going through things that are going to bring up a lot of triggers and trauma from my past, to have someone that— and there was some— there was an incident on set that happened, and if it wasn't Austin, like, I, I would have been harder for me to really to manage. So, wow.

That's amazing.

Yeah, so it was. And I, you know, the Morgan story being a true story too is just crazy. I mean, I, I just spoke to Morgan as well, congratulating her on, you know, the movie doing so well and her helping people. And because that's really at the end of the day, yes, would— did we want it to chart on Netflix? Sure, because that, that's helpful, you know, for maybe future projects. But it was more to, you know, have people go, okay, I don't feel alone in this situation and I feel seen, and or, or that's happening to me and I need to get out.

You know, it's interesting because, you know, the overall goal for you guys wasn't charting, it was awareness. Like, here's her story, you're not alone. And I think when you create art like that with that intention, it does chart, right? It does. You do get the bells and whistles, you know. But I think it's very interesting, and, you know, I, I think it's also admirable that— because I didn't You know, I stay out of the tabloids. I don't— yeah, I don't know the— all those stories. But, you know, for you to do that when you had that multiple times in your life, I think, you know, that, that's such an amazing quality. But also, that's what made it so good. Like, it looked— there was a time where I'm watching a movie, I'm like, oh my God, Jenna's just getting her butt kicked, right? I'm like, oh no, it's a movie. 'Yeah, this isn't— this isn't actually happening.' Like, it was that good.

Thank you.

Yes.

I mean, it was— it was tough. The— the attack scene was one of my first abusers. When he was, um, attacking me, he was on top of me where I couldn't breathe. And there was a scene where Austin was attacking me and he put the pillow over my head, and it was just— it brought me right back to, you know, being that girl, um, and 21 with, you know, feeling like she's about to die. And I mean, I just my body remembered it.

Wow.

Just like freaked out, um, and like pushed him off. He's like, I'm so sorry. I'm like, no, no, I'm like, yeah, I was just— but I ended up going out and crying because I was just— it was too— it felt too real to that. And then the courtroom scene, uh, when we went to the preliminary hearing or whatever it was, I never got to— he was— my abuser was in court, but I never got to say anything to him. And so that scene where I'm speaking to Austin in it, that was— I didn't know that I needed that moment to— because I've done so much healing work from that moment. But being able to have that power moment and to, to say what I needed to say, it was— it healed me even in that situation. And that's why the emotions were so raw in it, because it was like I got to say that to my abuser and then close the door with it because he saw it.

Yeah, I'm gonna tell you right now Every one of them probably saw it.

Well, he didn't see it because he— it's, it's a sad story, but he— well, he ended up committing suicide. So, wow. And when he got out of prison—

wow, wow, that is, that is pretty sad.

Yeah.

But, but, you know, but, but, you know, for, for the sake of this conversation, you know, you being on that witness stand, it's— this is what I love about acting, you know, in art. I could see your emotion. I was like, "Wow, this is a really good job." And now come to find out, it's because you had multiple experiences with this. And there's a lot of women out there, like you said, that are going through this right now that feel alone. You need to go watch this movie just to know that there is a way out. You know, it was so compelling. And the thing that I really love too is that you're connecting with Morgan. Like, you're so real. And that's one of the things I enjoy about you. Because when I sent it, when I sent the message— this is back to the message— and I got a message back, and I looked at my mom because I was driving in my truck with her. I was like, you should roll back. I was like, it's probably your VA.

So I was like, oh, what's that?

Like a virtual assistant.

I don't have an assistant.

I know, like somebody, somebody. So do I. I really wish I wasn't—

that's my problem, dude.

You and me both. I mean, I think at this point I could probably afford to have somebody like, yeah, in my in my account, like really engaging for me. But right now I don't want to give anybody the keys to that. I was just like, because then you could tell it's not me. So I was like, hold on a second, let me see if it's really her. And then you're sending me voice memos 'cause you were out of breath.

Yeah, I'm like on a walk or running or something.

You were running with your husband. But no, it's really, to me, it's a part of your, personality to be, you know, to communicate and to— of course you can't get back to everybody because that's right, that'd be nuts. But, you know, to see you in your, in your conversations with Morgan on your stories is really cool because, you know, she's super excited and you're super grateful and you're proud of her and she's proud of you. You know, it's like this huge collaboration going on, right? And she wasn't on camera with you.

Yeah.

It's nuts.

Yeah. And I'm just, you know, I— that's her story, you know, but it is so many other women's stories too. Maybe not exactly the same, but, you know, someone who has been— I've just gotten so many messages from people saying like, hey, like, my therapist recommended me the movie and I just— I feel— I don't feel crazy, or I feel so seen. And that's— that is such the win with all of this.

How does that feel? Like, hey, my therapist recommended this movie.

I know, uh, I know. I mean, it feels, it feels great. Even my therapist was like, you know, I've already told a few people to watch it, but just to know again that it's really hard when you're in those relationships. I mean, we've all— I think we've all— hopefully not everybody, but we've been in those situations where we're like, am I crazy? Like, this is— it's when you have to doubt your reality. And I know that so many people have dealt with that. So sometimes to be able to see it is easier to go, oh, okay, that has happened to me, and wait, I'm not crazy. And sometimes to have that validation is really freeing for people. I know it is for me because so many times I'd be like, oh well, I, I must have said it, or I, I guess I did say it that way, because that's their way of manipulating you into doubting your reality. And when you have to doubt your reality, that's a problem.

It's so crazy you say that because it's a perfect example of the scene in the kitchen.

Mm-hmm.

Because I watched it, then I'm like, wow, she, she smacked the hell out of him. But that's what he made your character believe. And then later on, it shows that it was completely the opposite. And that's gaslighting at its finest. And it happens in these types of relationships. And to your point where that thought of, am I going crazy? Is this really happening? Women really start to go like, yeah, this is— I guess I just deserve this. And throw your hands up. This is where I'm at. And it was such a treat. My wife couldn't watch the attack scene. And it was like one of those things where that specific scene, and I don't wanna bring out those feelings, but it was, even for me, and I don't mind things like that watching it, that was a really hard scene to watch. I couldn't even imagine having to go through it and acting through it. It. That's, that's a lot.

It was tough. I mean, and that was, again, was the moment, like, when I felt that him on top of me, and I just, you know, the director was like, she saw, she's like, I saw the fear in your eyes, and then that your body remembering it, and I just had to go outside and just cry it out. And then just like my body was shaking, because, and, and I, I remember calling my therapist and going, all right, like, this is, this happened, and it just planting my feet and going, this is not happening to you right now. This is just your body remembering something that you went through and kind of going through those emotions. But yeah, I mean, that it, it's wild because even before I took this movie, I told my therapist, I said, I don't know. I'm like, this is so many years ago that this happened. So I'm like, what if I have no emotion? What if I've done so much work that I can't even— or I, um, and then if I don't, if I do have emotion, or if not, then what if I have too much emotion, and then I can't get rid of it too.

So it was, um, it was difficult. But again, this— the reason I kept going back to, the reason why I wanted to tell the story, it's the reason why I continue trying to advocate for DV victims, even the ones that are wrongfully accused and serving time in jail for violent resistance. So that's another thing where I'm trying to get more understanding, because there's just— people don't understand. Well, why didn't she just leave? Or why, you know, there's It's— there's so much context that people don't understand what happens to victims in those situations.

You know, and that's, that's a good point because like, why don't you just leave, right? Like, walk us— walk the audience through that. And the reason why I want you to do that is because there's somebody listening right now that's going through this.

Yeah, well, it's hard. I mean, you have kids. I mean, there's the amount of times that people have got into my DMs, which is one of the reasons why I read them, because sometimes I do respond when I can to, you know, some people that need help. And it's, it's the number one thing is when you have kids, it's really hard to walk away. And I know that from, you know, leaving my, my last marriage was excruciating. There's things that I would have never stayed if I didn't have kids. But again, when your reality is twisted and you've been in abusive relationships before and you've had that emotional and physical trauma, you doubt so much of your own beliefs. Like, post-divorce and post a lot of my traumatic healing was all about trusting myself. And that's to this day something I always have to go back to. It's like, no, I know, and I have to trust myself. But that's really hard when you've doubted yourself for so long because someone else told you how wrong and crazy you were for having certain beliefs. So, you know, so many things when you're in those relationships, things get turned around on you.

So then you don't leave because you're like, well, I I did tell him to leave, or I did, you know, I— so I deserved that, you know. And you go to that I deserved place, and it's just, you don't deserve it. You don't deserve the emotional, physical, any abuse whatsoever. Um, and unfortunately, in those situations, the trauma of someone consistently feeding those negative beliefs into your brain, you believe it. I mean, after my divorce, I was like, I'm worthless, I don't deserve anything, I deserve to be hit, I deserve to be told, because that's what I was told and believed. And it takes years of healing and positive words to come in, but there's still times when I'm like, nope.

So you still struggle with it a little?

Yeah, sure. I mean, there's still times when I'm like, you know, even in my industry now where it's— I have this scarcity mindset where I'm like, I had to say yes to everything, you know. But I'm like, no, but I don't now. And I, I And it's still scary to trust yourself because that intuition— I'm— I— you shouldn't trust yourself, right? You're being—

you've already been conditioned. Yeah, right. Your limbic system's like, no, like, I— nope, I'm supposed to be in turbulence right now. Yeah, I don't deserve this. Yeah, right. Like, I gotta be here. But I mean, that, that's crazy because you've done so much healing, you talk about it, but there's always that, you know, it likes to peek its head out a little bit at times. And I think that people need to be ready for it, um, because if you're not— you think you're bulletproof?

Yep.

You're not bulletproof.

Not bulletproof.

No. Like, there's things that come up all the time, you know, for me and for everybody.

That's life too. We all have our stuff that comes back, and that's what people like, oh, she's clearly not healed. And I'm like, nobody's ever 100% perfectly healed. Like, I used to get that comment all the time, like, why are you still talking about it? Shut up. You're not— you should be healed by now. It's like, that is the most ridiculous, dude.

Yeah, like, like, you should be—

yeah, I'm not in my corner crying all day, but yes, sometimes there's going to be a trigger that might come up. And what I have to remember is the things I learned from my therapist going, what is the truth? What is— what do you know to be true right now? How do you feel in your— like, those are the things you have to walk through.

Yeah, when people come at you and say, you know, you're, you're— why are you still talking about it? You're oversharing. It's done. You should be healed. Like, those are unhealed Humans. And those are the ones that are sitting behind a keyboard and be like, how can I make Jana miserable right now? Or whomever, because I am unhealed and I am miserable in my life, so let me fight back 'cause it's the only way that I feel good. That's what those people are.

What were you saying though? I cut you off, I'm sorry. I don't know. About your stuff coming up.

Oh, oh, you, oh.

What's the thing that comes up for you?

Just little things like, I haven't said this one yet.

Okay.

Okay. And my wife's gonna laugh. A little small thing. Last night we were laying there, Mia sleeping, and we were holding hands. Yeah, we're doing all that. Yeah. Before I turn on the TV. And then she touched my face. I hate my face being touched.

Really? Is that from a certain thing that happened? Yes.

Okay, I'm gonna go there. Okay, I'm gonna go there. She's the only one that can touch my face, and my kids can touch my face depending on how rough they're being. If they're being gentle, I'm cool. But if they're like, I'm like, get out of my space. Get the fuck out.

Yeah, I tell you, I'll claw your face.

Um, no. So the dad that raised me is not my biological father.

Okay.

Um, I don't see it that way because it, you know, it was— he's the one that raised me. That's my dad. But my biological father, at one point, I remember, I think I might have been Mia's age. I was maybe around 6 or 7. And I have these moles here, you know, like right on my nose. Like, there's only one.

Barely see them. Oh, you took one off?

Nope. Oh, he held me down and like, like popped it. Like it was, you know, like, you know, like it was like a zit or something. So you got to get those off your face. And so like now when people— this is like a no-fly zone, you know, but those— but that stuff comes up. Like, then I have to realize, like, wait, it's my wife, I'm safe. Like, it's my kids, I'm safe. So last time when she went like this, I'm like, oh no, I let her do this. Like, and that's— and, and again, like, it's nothing compared to what Morgan or, or you—

no, but here, okay, this one thing my therapist— never compare, okay, your traumas to traumas. Because I'd be like, well, gosh, I mean, he choked me, but someone didn't— he didn't stab me like that one girl stabbed that, that guy, that guy stabbed. Yeah, you know, so it's like you can't compare, like, what— how it affected you, that's your trauma, and that's your stuff that hurts you. It doesn't make any of ours less, mine more than yours, or yours less than mine.

But that was just like the little things that come up, right? And for you, it was that scene. And for multiple people, these things flare up and we don't know why because a lot of times, even to the dumb comment of, "You should be healed by now." Like, no. You are probably 98% healed over that, but like there's still that 2% that's going to come out and try to play a little bit and test you.

It's in me, it's within us, you know. We— you have that, I don't know, possible insecurity of that because of him, you know, like that's— it's in you.

Yeah, it's wild, you know. And just even think like, I could never do this one of my children, right?

Well, that's what's going to make you the better parent. Not saying that they weren't a good parent, but that's— they're not great.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I saw him probably 4 times in my life, so.

Okay.

Yeah, but no, you know, like, but I also think that— and I haven't said this before, but like, I'm gonna say it. Like, damn, what are you bringing out of me? You know, he, he had 2 kids after me, and he's been there their whole lives, and I'm actually connected with him on Instagram. And not—

is there a jealousy with the kids because they had the father maybe you didn't have?

I think at the beginning I was like, well, why then?

With my sisters?

Yeah, but like, why them? Yeah, you know, but I mean, that was, you know, probably 17 years ago when I found out about it. Yeah, because I, I found him before I moved to Florida.

Oh wow.

I drove to Modesto, California because I'm from out in California. I just showed up at his house. So what's up? He's like, do I know you? You look familiar. I'm like, oh, well, I'm your son, so I mean, I hope you'd recognize me. He's like, are you here to— are you here to beat my ass? I was like, for a lot of years I thought that's why I would show up, but no, I just want to talk. And so like at the beginning I'm like, but why? And you know what I realized is that him and my mom's dynamic, that was their deal, and you know, they split up and It is what it is. And, you know, now there's no— I don't feel that any jealousy towards them at all. The beginning I did, but now it's just like we check in every once in a while. Like, Jamie's my half brother. Like, hey man, how you doing? Yeah, you know, uh, Michaela was my other— is the other sibling, right, that we share blood. And I— we're connected on Instagram, but we've never spoken. We've never Hi, how are you? Good to connect with you.

But, you know, those were times that, for a while, I had this fear of abandonment.

I was gonna say abandonment, yeah.

Yeah. And so, the root of that was, is no matter what relationship I was in, I did my damnedest to destroy it because I didn't think I was worthy of it. Oh, you're gonna abandon me too. I was like, well, let me get this out of the way so then I'm not hurt.

Yeah, so I would either do that or I would do— I'd be so codependent that I didn't want them to leave, so I would just stay and do whatever, you know, just been like, please don't leave me.

Yeah, you know, I'm right here. Hi. Yeah, that's so funny. I dated this girl in college that, um, we were on the tail end. I was like, okay, I need to, I need to cut this out.

Yeah.

And I went to school one day and then I went to baseball practice, all right? And I went to LSU, so our schedules were demanding. Like, I wouldn't get home until 6:00 PM.

Oh, wow.

Like, maybe, what am I talking about? I'd be done at the field at 6:00 PM, go get food, eat, come home, and she was still there. So like, I, you know, and then she kicked down my door one night. Literally exploded. It was the most impressive thing ever. Dancers are strong. Dancers are very strong.

Strong quads.

Yeah, very, just like kick that thing in. But like all this stuff makes sense, right? Because it wasn't her, it was just something that she was unhealed from, you know? And I don't know, as you get older, you start to understand more of where people are coming from.

Of course. And those are the conversations that I love too. And I see it, you know, even in conversations with my husband, it's like, okay, I see how, why he is the way he is because of maybe his family, you know. So all the, the family dynamics too, and then how that's ingrained in people. And I think it's just a, you know, it's as, as long as people are doing their work, I think that's a beautiful thing. And I think that is, if you want to keep learning and growing and evolving, that's because we all evolve and we all— but, but if you want to be curious about why you are the way you are and to, to learn and do better, I think that's a good quality.

And there's so much adversity baked into everything, right? Like everything that you've gone through. You know, we talked about Morgan's story. Like the amount of determination and resilience that you have to have to not just come out of that situation, but to face it in therapy is another level of resilience. Like that's hard.

Yeah. Therapy is some of the most grueling, hardest work ever, but it's so rewarding too when you get to the other side of it.

Yeah.

And even then, what, what does the other side look like? It's happier, but it's still— there's still little, little trails.

Well, your other side looks really nice.

Thanks.

You know, you guys at the lake house.

Oh, I'm so excited, right?

I know, I see it.

Just want to retire there.

I, I can see it. You have the lake house, you guys are— this, this amazing home. Talk to me about this chapter now.

You know, it's so beautiful, and it's still something where I told my husband the other day, I'm like, I'm almost waiting for the shoe to drop. Like, it's too good, you know?

It's crazy, isn't it?

Yeah. And he's like, no, he's like, you've worked really hard. Like, you should just enjoy this moment. I said, no, I am. I'm thoroughly enjoying it, and I'm scared that there's something bad coming around the corner.

What do you think?

Like, I don't even know, like I'm sick or I'm ill. I'm going to get it, you know, because it's like, it can't be this good. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, because I've checked— I'm checking off things that have been, you know, like my dream car, we got a lake house, we got, you know, it's like things are good, my kids are healthy. And, and I know life isn't perfect and there's struggles, and so I'm like, oh God, something bad's gonna— because that's what I'm, I'm always accustomed to, the shoe dropping somewhere.

Yeah, I know, I, I can relate. I was asking because I'm also that way. Okay, you know, I'm also like What? This is too calm right now. Yeah, like, what's up? Yeah, what the heck is going on? And I think that, you know, bad things are always going to happen for sure, you know. Um, hopefully they're not too catastrophic, right? Like, you know, getting an illness. Yeah, or something like that. Um, those are always like my biggest fears.

Yeah, same. My kid, it's like my kids. Like, I want to be— it's all— I want to be around for my kids, and then I want my kids to be healthy and happy. Like, if that is like, that's all I pray for every single night, like, truly. And it's, it's hard because I'm in— my biggest struggle at the moment is balancing my work and my family life. Yeah, you know, I just said no to a movie last night, and I woke up this morning and I've been, like, so emotional about it because I'm like, it's so hard because I'm like, you know, I love what I do, I love being an actress, and I didn't want to go away for a month to the Dominican Republic and miss a whole baseball season, a whole, whole— so whole softball season. But I'm like, uh, you know, like, this is the hardest thing because again, I love acting and I love being a mom, but I love being a mom. So I'm like, I don't want to miss the summers. Like, how many summers do you get with your kids and then it's done?

18.

Yeah.

And then they're all—

and my years are, you know, going, yeah, shorter and shorter. So I'm just like, I don't want to be away for a month.

Yeah, that, that's, you know, it's so funny because there was, um, conversations about me going on tour and doing some public speaking. I was like, well, do I get to go home? Like, oh yeah, you can go home. I'm like, okay, because, you know, I have children, I have a wife. Like, I don't— there's no way in hell I could be gone for 2 straight months. Yeah, like, I would be the worst public speaker on the planet by week freaking 2, dude. Like, I am— my company is empty. Yeah, my tribe's not here. Like, I'm uncomfortable. This is not good for me emotionally.

Yep.

You know, I do wanna share with the audience because, you know, you said, you know, I'm, you know, I passed up this movie. I didn't wanna go to Dominican Republic, you know, for a month and miss baseball season. Like, I need the audience to know that's the type of person you truly are. And I'm gonna bring it, that point home right here.

Okay.

When we started talking about 2 weeks ago, I was like, hey, you know, are you gonna be around the next couple weeks? And you said, um, no, you tell them what you said. Do you remember?

It was Derby Day. Well, I was supposed to go to— I was supposed to go to Los Angeles for the iHeart Awards and take another couple meetings, um, and I realized that the flight wasn't going to get me home in time to catch my daughter's Derby Day. So I said, Jolie, hey, sorry, Mommy's not gonna be able to see your Derby Day. And she was just like, oh, okay, no, it's fine. And because of what I do and the work that I do, I'm like I have to be very intentional of the things that I say yes to and the things that I— because they know, like, when I go, it's like, Mommy has to go, like, Mommy needs to go film this movie and, and work, because I love what I do. I think it's really important for them to see that too. But you also have to say no to things that, like— and I just was like, Derby Day is more important than going to LA.

So that's my whole point. Yeah, that's badass. Like, that, that I respect. You know, um, there was a red carpet event last weekend in Miami and I did the same thing. Yeah, you know, Getty was going to be there. It was like, I've never had a Getty Image.

Miami's fun too.

Like, dude, I'm just some dude. Like, I've never had a Getty Image. Like, I gotta go to this thing.

Gotta get a Getty.

Gotta, gotta get it. Gotta get a Getty. But, you know, I said to my, my good friend Matt, who's my publicist, I said, hey man, would you be totally pissed off at me if I didn't go? He's like, yeah, I want you there. I'm like, but no, for real, for real. Yeah, like, no, like No bullshit. Like, he's like, no, what's up? I'm like, I feel like I need to be home with my family, you know. I was in New York this week, you know, Nashville next week. My wife's behind the camera, you can't see her. Smoke Show.

Hey baby, Smoke Show. And she speaks— oh yeah, different language.

I know, that's my favorite.

I'm like, oh, she gets mad at you, does she just go—

well, that's the thing though, like, if she's mad at me, I prefer her to speak to me in Spanish because it's a turn-on.

Yeah.

If she speaks to me in English, I'm like, oh no, I know you're pissed, I don't like these words. Say some things that I don't understand completely, and I'm good. But I just said, you know, I'm— this is a good opportunity. There's some massive people in the room. You know, it was at the One Hotel in Miami, red carpet, everything. And I was just like, no, good for you. I need to be home. I need to be home. And we had a pretty good weekend. Good. That was good. It was good.

It's good.

And I didn't regret my decision.

Good. See, yeah, that's great. And I, I, I woke up slightly regretting my decision this morning, uh, but I do think that there is— I've worked really hard and it's nice to get to a place where I can say no to things, but it's hard to say no to things because I still have a very— I have a scarcity mindset too with money. But at the same time, there is an amount that I would be okay with leaving my kids for a little bit. It just is like—

but you know, what's your number?

I'm not gonna say it, but I'm just— but like, if they, you know, It does, because I'm like, if it's not worth it to me to leave, I, I'm gonna choose the baseball season.

No, 100%.

But my manager was like, well, then you maybe you should like shouldn't be an actor, you know?

I'm like, that, that's some bullshit.

I'm sorry, it really, really made me upset.

Right?

Because I'm like, I am an actor. I left— I have many— I can give you many situations where I've taken $0 to move the needle, where I've left vacations to go film. Like, so no, like, yeah, it's not fair. That's not a fair comment.

That's not a fair comment.

But you know, it's tough.

It is tough, you know. I've, I've had a couple publicists, and my first publicist, um, you know, kind of said some things like that to me before, like, you need to get out more, you, you know, you, you know, you gotta understand, like, your kids are gonna have to miss you. I'm like, no, they don't. Yeah, no, they don't. Because I know where this is going, and I know there's not a lot of real conversations on podcasts. And I know one day when everybody's done with the misdirection and done with the rage bait and the clickbait, they're gonna come right here, and then I'll be able to afford to fly them wherever I want with me. They're a part of it. I never wanted this thing to be, you know, separate from my family. And, and a lot of men, when they travel, they, they like that time away. Yeah, you know, sometimes I do like the time away though, and that's because I like to watch things that I want to watch. When I'm with my wife, I have to watch like Romper Room bullshit.

Love Is Blind.

I love Love Is Blind.

I do too.

Oh my God, I love that.

My husband hated it in the beginning, and then I forced him sit down and watch it with me one day, and he was just like, so we're gonna watch the next episode.

Yeah, we'll binge that thing.

I love it.

And it's so funny because I've become really good friends with people that are on that show. Yeah, like Clay Graves, Sandy, um, and Shane.

Face probably.

Yeah, so Clay is from season 6.

Okay.

And Shane is, I believe, season 2.

Okay, I started watching later.

Oh yes, the, the beginning seasons are the best.

Okay.

Yeah, now they're like kind of get, you know, I don't know, this last one was decent. I didn't finish it.

I like the last one.

I didn't finish it, but the, the one before last, it was an absolute train wreck.

That was tough.

Train wreck to watch. I'm like, come on. Yeah, come on. You know, it's like, God. But yeah, so that's the only reason why I love to travel alone sometimes.

I get that.

But I, I love when they're with me, you know. I love when they get to experience it.

Yeah. And most of the time I bring the kids with me. Like, they were just up there in Cleveland with me. I was shooting a film but it was just the Dominicans farther away. Yeah, it's harder travel.

Yeah.

I'm like, if this was in the States, I'd have been like, yeah, let's do it.

Yeah, you know, absolutely. But so that's the thing, it was a logistics thing, it was a geography thing. It wasn't— I'm not an actor, right?

I know, but they had to just throw that one in there.

Yeah, you know, um, what was your— so like, I mean, like that right there though, from your like representation, that's hard. Yeah, you know, because that's a test moment. Because I'm sure every bit of you wanted to, like—

I'm very reactive.

Yeah, me too.

But what I've learned, and this is, again, I'm gonna just say thank you to my husband for this one, he's really helped me not be reactive in the moment. He's like, take the night, write it out. And that's the thing, I always write everything out. It's something that my therapist always said, write it out but don't send it. So I write everything out in my notes, and then the next day I'll redraft it a little less emotional. But I, I did write something back this morning, and I said I don't appreciate the comment of not saying maybe I shouldn't be an actor. So there's many things that I've done, um, to, to prove that, you know, I'm doing what I want to be doing, and I'm— I work really hard. I said logistically, this just wasn't it for me, and I'm mom first, and if we're not aligned in that, then maybe we're not their best fit.

I love it. You know, when people make comments like that, it's not about you.

Yeah, well, they're, they, they're very much in the, like, you should be so grateful no one's getting offers. And, you know, they like to keep— and I get it, they want quantity. Like, work begets work, and I believe that.

Sure.

So much. And it's great, again, logistically. I just, in my gut, was like, I think I'll be very unhappy being there that long.

Yeah, you probably would be.

Yeah.

You know, and again, it's like you know, to the managers and stuff, like, that's a paycheck.

Yeah, it's a paycheck for me too, though. That's the thing. I'm bummed too, you know. I want to be working. That's the thing. Like, I would love to work. I just— yeah, that was tough.

It's interesting because it's like an ocean away.

Feels a little harder for my mama heart when it's an ocean away.

I totally get that. Like, I couldn't do it. I'd be like, all right, like, yeah, um, you're taking a month off of work and my husband can't do that, you know.

Like, my kids can't do that either. How could I call my ex-husband and be like, hey, can the kids, um, take off all their baseball season? Like, he'd be like, no. And I don't want them to either. That's not fair.

Yeah, no, it's so funny because, um, you know, Chris, fine, there's like, you need to move to Nashville.

Yes, you do.

My family dynamic, I can't. Oh, right, because, you know, yes, you know what I'm saying? And so it's like, do I want to live in Nashville? Because Jackie said yesterday, she goes, I would live here.

I'm like, so great. I'm like, it's so great. I'm like Can you convince your ex to move here? Maybe. Yeah, maybe.

I don't know. Jackie, get on it. She likes you better than me.

Um, but no, it usually is the case.

No, it's all— we're all, we're all cool. But, you know, I, I— for me, like, Nashville is a mini hub.

It is.

There's a lot of people here, you know, and it's centrally-ish located. Yeah, you know, I can get to New York, you know, I can get to California.

My daughter's She's like, it's not centrally located.

She's making noises. She's like, I want to move to Nashville.

She's got the cowgirl hat on. She's—

Koei bought it for her. He brought it in for her.

I didn't bring a gift. I didn't know she was going to be here.

No, no, it's okay. No, it wasn't a prerequisite. No, just, you know, Koei Red— I ran into her music about 2 years ago.

Okay.

And it's very— you know, she's from my area in San Francisco Bay.

Oh, okay.

And it's, you know, she grew up writing hooks for rappers. So she has a lot of pop and hip-hop in her country. And when I found her on Instagram, I played it for my wife and played it for me. So Mia's been obsessed for like 2 years.

How awesome.

Yeah, so that's sweet, you know. Um, so that's why— so they've, they've, they've talked before, they've done FaceTimes and things like that.

I love that. But, um, well, we will welcome you with arms wide open.

Yeah, no, absolutely. No, it's just great to be here and have this conversation with you. You know, you mentioned your husband helping you with things. Like Jackie's done that for me, because I sense that you and I are a lot alike. Like we look very polished, very kind. I think we can be a little bit of a monster when you come at us.

So my thing is I am, I'm a Sagittarius. What's yours? What's your sign?

I'm a Scorpio.

You're a Scorpio, okay. So it's not that I'm stubborn, but I am stubborn. Like, there's—

she's arguing with herself, ladies and gentlemen.

Yes. Um, but I also— I, I'm at a point too where I almost like, I demand respect now. Like, I have been so disrespected for so many years that I, I want respect from people. So when I feel disrespected, that is when I get puffy, you know, because I'm just like, no, like, I, I've— I, I don't deserve that. Like, I know what I deserve and I don't deserve that. Uh, but I— my first initial reaction is always like, I get— because I, I know every opportunity that I've— a lot of the opportunities, I won't say every, but I've got them for myself. Like, it's, you know, when I meet a producer, I'm like, all right, what's our next project? Like, I'm a— I'm Michigan, I'm grit. I was raised with nothing. My mom had 3 jobs. Like, I didn't come from money. I, you know, was the sole provider for a very long time with my kids. I pay my ex-husband child support, you know, like, I have to work, I have to support the family. And so for me, it's, um, when I either feel disrespected, I will get a little— but I, I'm just— I'm— my therapist calls me Scrappy.

She's like, you're very Scrappy, like, you're gonna get stuff done. Um, but yeah, I can be really emotional at first, which is why he's helped me just be like, don't be reactive, don't send that right now, because I would just straight up be like, how could you say that?

Yeah. You know, that's so rude, which is also a decent question, and it's not incorrect that it was disrespectful, but like, are you gonna get what you want out of it?

No, not at all. That's the whole thing. It's like you don't ever get that. And then you don't— he always said this too, he's like, you don't look as powerful when you come from that point of view.

Wow.

He's like, if you want to be respected and have— be powerful, don't come from it from, from that angle. Take a beat, compose yourself. And he's a coach, so he's all about like composing yourself and like, you know, sometimes he doesn't do it either the best way. He's Scottish, like, yes, you know, he's also human, fiery too. Yeah, human. But no, he's been really helpful with me to just lock it up. And a lot of times I— lately what I've been doing is just going really inward and, um, and really trying to say, okay, what what I've closed the door to, something will open somewhere else. Like, I have to believe that.

Yeah, I mean, I agree with you, you know, and everything that you're saying about your husband, my wife has done for me.

Yeah.

Because I was so quick to respond to everything.

Yeah.

And respond with emotion, but having a spouse that can literally coach you through things and help you grow is super important.

Yeah.

You know, it always confuses me, it's like, you know, when you said that you're always having to defend yourself, it's like, why at this point do you even have to do that? I'm an outsider and I can clearly see that you proved yourself. Yeah, like, like that, that is something. Like, do you think that's gonna continue to happen?

I don't know. What's it gonna take? My buddy, you know, Kellan Lutz, he's, he's a really great actor. He was in, um, I mean, so many things. But he, uh, we were talking this morning and he goes, you know, he goes, I've gotten to a place where my response is, it's a pass. And then my agent manager will respond with a bunch of stuff, and he goes— and he'll just say, I understand, but it's still a pass. He goes, you don't have to over-explain yourself in your gut decision because you know as a mom, as an actor, what your answer is, and you don't have to explain it. So I was like, I love that, you know. I'm like, yeah, why did I send this? You know, it wasn't super emotional, but it was longer than it needed to be. Yeah, why can't it just be But I am so much a people pleaser as well.

That's it.

And I'm so much of a yes person to say yes to everything that I, I'm still learning to trust myself in going, no, my gut says no. And I understand what you're saying, but it's a pass.

Yeah.

And being like firm and committed in that decision, I really struggle in that piece, like, and I'm wanting to like learn how to just stand firm and be like, okay, that was my answer and that's that.

I admire that. And that's where I'm striving to as well. Even to say no. Yeah, like saying no to Last Saturday was very hard for me.

Yes. Yeah, totally.

Because like, I don't know who I would meet in that room.

Yep.

I don't know what could have come from it.

Totally. And I— now, same thing, I'm like, what if that I could have done another movie with this other producer, director, the movie I just said no to, you know?

Yeah, but it's like, but that's not our job. It's not our job to worry about those things, you know? You can only do the best you can with the information that you have in front of you. Yeah, and I think that's an interesting point for the audience because I think we're all searching for the next thing. Everybody's going through adversity. Everybody's probably scared in the world we live in right now, you know? Like, there's some things happening that I'm like, am I, am I in a movie? Like, what's going on? But like, the, the, the most important thing is that you are there now. Like, wherever you're at, be there.

Yeah.

And it's very hard to be present. Yeah, it's very hard, especially for creators, because our mind's always going like, what's next? What can I do? You know, who can I contact to bridge that gap for another project? But I think what I'm starting to learn, and I hope it sticks, is not everything is going to be the next big thing, right? And if I have to pass on something, it's okay.

Yeah.

You know, if it, if it raises my excitement level, I'm all in. Yeah, like coming here, right? You know, you were the first one I talked to, and I'm like, oh, wait a second, I know Koe here.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many people here.

I know Fillmore here. And so I'm like, all right, dude, we'll do, we'll do, you know, 2 hours one day, 2 hours the next day. And I got excited about it, and nothing else mattered. Yeah, it was a full-on yes for me. Even the, the fact that I had to leave my 2 biggest kids because they can't miss school. Grades are what their grade they're in, and they have extracurriculars. And then it was like even to the point where if, if Mia and Jackie couldn't come, I'm still going. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So one of my theories, and this is something that my husband again brought up to me last night, he goes, this is what you say all the time. And I knew what he was going to say. And I say this to my friends, if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no.

Dude, my, my—

I live by that motto.

So my friend Pat Sickens, he's also a partner in my company, He goes, dude, if it's not a hell yes, then it's a no.

Yeah.

And this was a hell yes.

Yeah.

Having this conversation with you, with you, was a hell yes for me. And I appreciate knowing that about you because that makes me feel like, like, well, damn.

Yeah. Well, our time is valuable too. Yeah. Your time is valuable. Everyone's time is valuable. And I think that's too where, you know, my biggest thing is trusting. And this is what my husband said. He's like, listen, if you want to go, he said, we will support you. We'll bring the kids for a week if we can, you know, like we will do what we can to support you if you think this is the right move. He goes, what does your gut say? And I think that's something where, again, not trusting myself for so long, it's like not listening to that first gut instinct. And I'm like, well, my first gut instinct was no, not to do it. And it's like to lean into that and to trust yourself, I think that is like the biggest takeaway. Because you're— I do think you have that innate ability to go, okay, let me gut check this, let me see how I really feel about this, and lean into that.

That's interesting for the audience because I think what you said probably resonated with them, and it resonated with me too because for the longest time I didn't trust myself. Yeah, you know, but what are some things that you did to kind of shift that paradigm to be like, no, I can trust myself? Were there activities, exercises that you did?

I mean, there's so many. Like, a lot of things was the— this is kind of silly, but like one of my biggest things that worked for me in my healing trauma was I was at this retreat center and I, um, I carried a bunch of rocks and on the rocks it was like, I deserve abuse, I'm not enough, I'm stupid— any, any negative thing that I believed about myself, we put it on the rocks and I'd put it in this backpack and then I hiked 2 miles to this river and I carried the weight of all the negative beliefs on my back. And it was like this quiet walk. And when I got to the river, she was just like, I want you to take the rocks out. I want you to throw the rocks that don't serve you anymore, and I want you to call out the negative to the positive of what it is. And so I went through most of them, and she's like, if you want to hold on to a few rocks, you can. She's like, if you're not ready to let them go, you don't have to let them go.

The one that I had the hardest time throwing was that I didn't deserve abuse, and eventually I ended up throwing it. But I say all that is because that was the start of me going the positive thoughts. Like, no, I, I am smart. I do make good decisions. I am a good mom. I, I have to make hard choices sometimes, but I know I'm going to do the right thing. And I know it's such a silly concept, but when you speak positive into yourself, and it's gonna just quiet all the negative. So I don't think, uh, sometimes I don't make the best choices, but you know, I like to go— because we're human, right? We can't all do it perfect.

But yeah, it's boring.

Yeah, yeah. But like And of course I have thoughts. Sometimes the negative ones will creep back in, but most the time I've been working so hard on being more positive and just being confident in who I am and the decisions that I'm making. I'm in my 40s now. I feel more confident in certain things.

You're in your 40s?

I'm 42.

Really? Wow.

So yeah, it's just— I think that has been one of the best things. And then just again going back to just trusting yourself and how you feel and— yeah, gut checks. And I love therapy.

So yeah, you know, I think, you know, the exercise you did with the rocks, I think those things— I know they work. Yeah, you have to commit to it. Yeah, you know, because, you know, the thing that I imagine when some people listen to it, they're like, oh, they roll their eyes.

Yeah, oh my God, of course I've burned papers.

Oh yeah, write a letter and burn it, what the hell is that going to do? Yeah, nothing with that attitude. Yeah, but if you really connect to the exercise, yeah, and you're like, okay, I'm gonna write this all out and I'm gonna feel the emotion of what it is I'm writing on this rock.

Yeah.

And then I'm going to feel the emotion of pulling out of my backpack because I don't have to carry this shit anymore. Yeah.

And I walked back, by the way, 2 miles with a lighter backpack, and I didn't feel the weight.

That must have been nice.

That was great. I was like, how does this feel? I really like this.

Like, wow, it's like starting to get cramped in my traps. I don't feel that way anymore. But when you commit to something, you know, like you did, even the one like, I deserve the abuse, like holding on to that rock and not wanting to throw it back in that— throw it in that water working through the fact that you did not in fact deserve it and finally releasing it. That's what makes things so effective. Not just, all right, cool, yeah, thanks. Like, that'll never work. Yeah, right. But, but that's, that's a good exercise, you know. And I, and I hope the audience like listen to that, whatever they choose, right?

If they want to write a letter out to someone who's, you know, abused them or I had a funeral service basically in therapy for my, for my ex, my ex, like my last marriage, you know what I mean? Like I had to, I had to literally write a eulogy, like my therapist. It was so silly. Wow. But it was so great because it was a death, you know, and things like that help you heal and move on.

That's crazy. So you guys heard that.

I know it's so silly, like some of the things I would tell my friends, they'd be like, okay, that's a little weird, but I'm like, and it worked.

You know, it's funny because like I, I think it applies in a lot of different areas, right? So there was, I think about 3 years ago, I was going through a really hard time when I was building the show. You know, I was super out of shape and then, you know, we weren't making any money. We couldn't, couldn't monetize this thing. Like, couldn't figure it out.

Yeah.

And I was just, you know, we were really struggling. And, you know, I had this conversation with a buddy of mine and I recently had him back on my show. What I didn't know is he was taking notes the whole time we were talking, right? And he pulled out his little pad on my show where we did like maybe a month and a half ago, and we did this exercise, this visualization exercise. And he's like, who are you? What do you see? Where are you at? What are you wearing? And I'm like, I'm wearing tight black pants, tight black shirt. you know, red and black, uh, red and black Nikes, you know, like with white accents. And, you know, I'm vascular, I'm in shape. And he goes, what are you wearing right now? I was wearing the exact outfit. He's like, now look at your vascularity. You created your reality 3 years ago right now. How can you say you're not winning?

Wow.

And so like, that's the thing, right? Like when you commit to something and you go through the action with intention, doesn't matter what it is— therapy, building something— like, yo, it's gonna work.

It may not work if you put your— yeah, the— all your energy and effort and love into it.

Yeah, put your back into it, girl. You gotta put your back into it. You gotta— you gotta do those things. And so like, when people say therapy doesn't work, it's because you're not putting into it. Yeah, you're expecting to go—

or you don't have the right therapist. I've also had—

well, yeah, not— yeah.

Great therapist too. It takes a couple times. Like, don't get discouraged if the first one you don't connect with. Like, that's okay.

How did you find the right therapist for you and everything that you're going through?

Oh, she was such a godsend. Um, I was having really bad anxiety. Uh, it was when I was in my last marriage, and my friend just, um, said, you know, you should really go to do EMDR. And I didn't really know much about EMDR, but she is an EMDR specialist, and And then I was just like, can you be my therapist too? Like, she's incredible.

So yeah, I've always wanted to— I haven't done that yet.

Oh, EMDR, it's great. It's really, really, really great.

Yeah, I, I've really wanted to, um, because there's still some things, you know, like my reaction sometimes.

Yeah, like they would do what you spoke about with your face, like they would, um, walk you through that and then maybe that would help your— the intensity. So it's all about like lessening the intensity of how that moment, trigger, trauma, yeah, makes you feel. So it might help with that, you know.

Yeah. What I also really want to dig into is like— and my wife says this to me all the time— is like, we had it, we had a little bit of a conversation Friday. And by conversation, I mean like it was, it was a little intense.

Yeah.

Sometimes I say things and react certain ways, and I don't understand that I'm doing it, right? Like, I don't understand my tone.

I Mm, yeah.

I'm like, no, I just said this.

Were you in our couples therapy yesterday?

Was I, was I there? Yeah, maybe.

I think it's a guy thing too though.

Is it?

I don't think men understand their tone. Again, my husband's Scottish, so that's already pretty tough. Like, he's harsh. Yes, you know, it sounds angrier than he's intending it to be. But I do feel like you guys can be a bit defensive when women just want to have a conversation. Or be heard.

Hey, quiet down back there.

Am I right about that? Sometimes we don't— we don't want you to fix it. We don't want you to— you know, it's really about hearing us. I think that's— yeah, we have that issue at times as well where I'm like, I just need you to not come back either with a fix or someone help me over here.

Someone help me.

He's drowning all by himself. Yeah, is that about accurate?

No, it is, you know, and Chris is just watching me get beat up over here. Um, but no, I think that, you know, the thing is, is that sometimes I feel the way it comes out when I'm approached with it, I was like, can you say it differently? But then I hear, well, if I say it like that, you still have this reaction. So maybe it is a guy thing. Maybe, maybe we are just, you know, maybe it's like we feel shamed when our women are like saying, yo, this is what's wrong, this is wrong, like, you know, this is what's going on right now.

Well, I think we have to also deliver it in a way where it's not— like, I've learned in therapy too how to deliver it where my husband doesn't feel— that hopefully he wouldn't take it as defensive. Like, hey, when you brought this up the other day, it really made me feel like frustrated, and so I'm just— would love some clarity around it. If they get defensive, that's then— yeah, you're, you know— yeah, your fault in it, I guess. Um, but you should then go, okay, my— our therapist is always like You guys are not the enemy. So take a beat and go, okay, she's not trying to hurt me, she's not trying to say I'm doing something wrong. What is she— what is she wanting me to hear right now? And to lean in to be like, okay, can you explain that a little bit more so I can understand how I could have done that better? Or, you know, like having the conversation instead of just being like, what do you mean? You know, or like dismissing it or being defensive or trying to—

no, that's the thing though, it's, uh, it's so hard.

It's so hard.

Of course it is hard. Yeah, I just want to chill. I just want to like—

but our therapists say the best relationships are the ones that can have arguments but repair.

Yeah.

And that's where it's like, if you can repair well, your marriage will be well, basically.

Yeah, I think. And, and I don't know what her thought is, but I feel like, you know— and she won't get on camera.

She's so beautiful.

I know.

Good job.

Thank you. Winning.

Not saying like you couldn't, but I'm just saying, you know.

Oh, trust me, I've heard that too. How'd you pull that one off?

It's just stunning. You like her cheekbones? My gosh.

I know, tell me about it. Come here, girl.

Come here, mamacita.

Mamacita.

That's about all I know.

Poppy. Um, but you know, I forgot where I was going with this. See, I love— see, I love the side chatter. Like, that's what I love about what we do here, you know. It's just, it's not put together. We're just— we're a mess.

Um, after Friday night, yes, your fight, did you repair?

I feel that I—

did you repair well?

Because that is, in my opinion, yes.

Did he repair well? Okay, good.

So the night of, no, stubborn as an asshole.

Like, I was like, no, but, but What could you have done better in that moment of being the asshole? Did you think of her as the enemy? Did you?

Yeah, I did. Um, I—

was she being the enemy?

No, I misinterpreted something.

So that would have been a good moment to then ask for clarity, right? So that you didn't go straight to your—

I reacted. I know.

Why? Men, men, men, men, men, men, men.

Great show.

Good show.

I miss that show.

Good show.

Damn, so funny. So funny. Okay, so no, I think, you know, when I misinterpreted something, my perception was something was said, then I went harder and doubled down on that word, and it was, it was not good. It was not good. But like, you know, we, we argued and then eventually, like, we get back on track and we, like, walk through things. And then I'd misinterpret something she would say, and I— and then she would misinterpret something that I would say. Then we go backwards. But at the end of the night, it was— I'm sure there was that residue of something happened, but it was also like nothing happened. And since then, I've been more aware of, like, maybe my reaction in this certain situation needs to get better. And I feel like I've tried to be more patient since then. I don't know, I just feel more at peace. Like, okay, hopefully that was the conversation that needed to happen so I can be there for her more and not be this super reactionary person. I'm not perfect. I'm going to have times where I backslide. There's going to be times. But it's like, overall, I feel like I've been less of what she would call frustrated or annoyed towards her.

Yeah, well, I also think that's an inventory check that like we have to do on ourselves in those moments. Like when I react a way that I don't want to react, I always go— or if he does, I'm like, did he have a stressful day today? Did he lose a client? Did he gain— like, is he— is this— is he, you know, what is going on in his world? Because I think we don't— we let those things come into our Yeah, arguments. Sure, sure.

Like frustrations over career.

Yep.

Or whatnot.

It's like, for sure, you know, so I know if like when I was in my head the other day, like if he would have came at me, I'd have been like, what, what? Like I would have been more— yeah, probably like more wrong doing something right now, you know. It's like, but that's not his fault. I'm in my own head. Yeah, I'm not explaining that I'm dealing with something that's— I'm struggling with.

Do you realize how hard that is?

Like, oh, it's so— it's vulnerability, and it's the toughest thing to to feel that, at times.

Marriage, in general, is like, you have two separate human beings that also live separate lives, like, for work and stuff. And then she has her day, he has his day. And then you come home at the end of the day and everybody's brought back together. And it could be very contentious, right?

And throw kids on top of it.

Then throw three kids on top of it.

Sports.

Sports and—

All of it. Dinner time, 2-year-old.

Exes?

Yes.

Like external factors that could, you know, I mean, good God, man, I think we're killing life here. That's a lot. That's a lot. But I mean, the fact of the matter is, is yeah, you just show up, you do the best you can, and hopefully you can admit when you're wrong and, you know, fix things. But no, I just, the dynamics is just like the communication aspect of life in general, but especially in a marriage. I think a lot of people really struggle with it. I know I do, um, again, because no one's perfect. But being open to maybe the fact that, you know, the other person doesn't have to be right and you don't have to be right, but you can seek to understand.

That's always my thing. I'm like, you will never unders— like, you might not ever understand, and I might not ever understand you, but I want to, I want to listen and try to understand. Yeah, like, I, I don't— I might not think it's right But I can listen and I just want that same thing back.

I think there's a 0% possibility that men will understand women completely and women will understand men completely.

Oh, of course.

There's no shot. We are wired way too differently. You just have to understand where someone's coming from, perspective, right?

Yeah, and I think it's again, like making sure that like you're not the enemy. She's not your enemy. He's not my enemy.

Are we in a counseling session?

I know, are we?

Seriously. So what's—

and repair. It's all about repair.

So how do you feel? How did that make you feel?

I know.

No, I love these types of conversations because they're— they, they evolve, right? So I think about this whole conversation is like, okay, we started here, then it evolves into this, and it's all for the simple fact that someone on the other side needed to hear that. And it's really cool that way. Like, that's what I love about art. It's like, even what— like, obviously even what you do like you're doing it, like you're, you're, you're in a role and it's serving a purpose. Because I think there's a lot of people out there that watch movies differently. Yeah, I watch movies completely differently than I used to. What can I learn? How does this fit into my platform? Is there a shot I could even talk to this person? And what can it serve my audience?

Um, can you get Jason Sudeikis on? And for Shrinking, do you watch Shrinking? Oh no, what happened?

The most genius show.

I'm obsessed with it. I cry, laugh, like it is literally my favorite show. You need to get him on.

Which one? Okay, so sometimes I know faces but I don't know names.

He's the— not Harrison Ford, obviously. The other, the other—

that's Jason Segel.

Oh, Segel. Sorry, I said Sudeikis. Jesus. Jason Segel. You need to get Jason Segel on the show.

I would lose my mind. My, um, publicist met, um, Harrison Ford, Matt Uriel, the other day. Or I think that's his name, right?

He's the—

he's Brian in the show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And apparently he said yes.

Oh my gosh, please tell him I'm like the largest fan of that show. Dude, I love that show. Harrison Ford is amazing. Jason Segel is amazing. Jesus.

I was like, wait a second, I'm having a hard time here.

Yeah.

Um, that's a great show.

It's so— and that's what I'm talking about, like those kind of shows. Like, I watch TV now because I'm like, okay, that show makes me laugh, it makes me cry.

It makes me—

has the therapy aspect in it. I'm learning something, I'm reflecting. Like, that is my favorite.

I looked at Jackie one night and I'm like, I don't— I'm, I'm literally about to lose my shit. I'm gonna cry, I'm gonna cry, I'm gonna cry. Because it's so—

again, so good.

We can go all the way back to One Tree Hill. It's the same thing. These bad things happen and like we're literally watching real people acting out these situations that people go through.

Yeah.

And it, it can help because, you know, like, damn, other people are struggling with this stuff.

Yeah.

But no, that, that show is really good.

It's so good.

Have you seen Platonic yet?

No, I'd like it. Yeah, you like it.

It's funny.

Okay. It has, um, I'm usually not a comedy girl. I usually like the dramas and the, like, the thrillers. Yeah.

But it's my bestie. I, I am like all about twist my brain as hard as you.

Oh, for sure. Like Mobland, like all of those, like Ozark. I'm obsessed with all of them.

Genius show.

So good.

Genius show.

Like, that's the kind of show I would love to be on. Like, my whole thing is I want to be on a TV show. Like, that is my dream goal. Back— I want to be back on a show.

Yeah, so that'd be great to see.

Thanks.

That'd be really great to see.

Yeah, like Friends and Neighbors. I love that kind of like has a little comedy in it.

But yeah, go watch Platonic. It's okay, it's a comedy, but it's Seth Rogen. I like Seth Rogen and Rose Byrne. No, Byrne from Bridesmaids.

Love.

Yes, she's awesome.

She's fantastic.

Incredible, incredible show.

I feel like that's the only comedy I could do. Well, maybe— I mean, like, she's incredible, but like, I'm not like a slapstick kind of— I could never do Jackie's not— I don't ever audition for comedy. Like, I'm just not like—

well, I don't think it—

I don't think Rose Byrne has like a dryness to her that I would love. She's good to play.

She's really good. I couldn't see you in a comedy.

Yeah, I'm just— yeah, I think I have too—

you're funny because I'm with you in person. You have a good sense of humor. I'm not saying you're a deadbeat. I'm just saying I don't know. I don't know if the world's ready to see you in a comedy.

Yeah, no, I, I want to— I want to do more.

Yeah, you want to do more?

I, I need it to connect.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the thing. Like, it's— that is also like, acting is such therapy for me too, in a way. Yeah, like it helps me.

That's awesome. I mean, these conversations too, for me, like when I have conversations with people like you and then other guests, like there's things that I work through real time. And the thing that I love about podcasting— you have a podcast, the Wine Down Podcast.

Yeah, it's been 8 years.

Oh really? Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, I thought I've been going a long time.

Yeah, 8 years. So I get it, like in the beginning it's like, you know, you weren't making money, and then afterwards you're like, oh okay, like this But then, then I'll— then a lot of people have podcasts, and so it's, you know, the fluctuations with it is interesting.

Oh, the podcast industry. Yeah, so fun, isn't it?

It is. It's difficult. I mean, I've thought about quitting the podcast many times just because it's, uh, a lot of times things are taken out of context and then it's just a headline, and that makes me really frustrated when it's out of context. And then sometimes too I say things that I'm like crap, I should have added— I shouldn't have said it like that. It's already out, and then it's—

yeah, it's— oh well, oh well, let it eat, girl, let it eat. Yeah, nothing I really say turns into a headline because I'm not a name yet, but I'm sure at one point if I say something, I have to be very careful because, you know— and I'm still careful now because, yeah, people like to go back in time.

Yes, they do.

Listen, they— he's doing so good, she's killing it. Let me fuck her up. Yeah, let me find a way. Yeah, shoe drop, shoe drop. You did this in 1995. I was 13. Yeah, no, I was like probably 15. Anyway, I digress. But like, that's the thing, it's like, you, you know, and, and try not to beat yourself up about that though, because—

oh no, no, I, I just, I, I do, like, there's been things where I'm like, I should not have said it like that, because I do hold myself to— I don't like to be prejudged. Like, you can have your opinion after we meet and hang out and talk or whatever, but I don't like it— someone who just prejudges someone. And sometimes I've done that in the past, and I'm like, I just went against what I believe.

Your only flaw as a friend is you haven't followed me back on Instagram yet.

Oh shoot, have I not?

Your husband does. We're besties. We're besties, me and your husband.

I will do it as soon as I leave. I'm so sorry.

Unbelievable.

I know, I'm so bad with that. I need to get better.

It's hard. Like, do you—

like, I try to stay off as much as I can, but I do go in my DMs because they're kinder in DMs.

Yeah, they are. Yeah, I, I don't get a lot of hate in DMs. Like, it's, it's really nice.

Yeah, the DMs are usually like 99.9% are sweet.

Yet I don't get it yet. I'm sure at one point.

Yeah. Oh yeah, and I just straight up, I'll block.

Oh yeah, I don't deal with it. Like, yeah, yeah, you don't like it.

I said something earlier today and I honestly can't remember what it was, but I was just like, block.

Do you know where people are really mean?

Oh, I don't even want to bring up the website.

YouTube and X. Oh yeah, they're—

yeah, okay, I was thinking of another thing, but yes, I don't even want to say it because I don't want to give them—

okay, off camera I want to know. Okay, yeah, I was on Piers Morgan one time. Yes, he was. Twice.

Okay. And after the first time, is he great?

I liked him. Yeah, he's cool. Yeah, but the panelists— so then also was on with Tommy Lauren. Okay, which we become friendly.

Great.

I was on her show. Um, me and her husband have connected, you know. Um, but there's just— it was about the, the show Adolescence.

Oh, okay. What were your thoughts?

Um, it was a great show.

Okay.

But it was also very heartbreaking because there's, you know, they talked about the manosphere and how—

so sad.

It's, it's wacko.

Yeah.

But I got torched.

Why?

I got torched. I was called a covert feminist, and because I allow my wife out of the house to work.

I'm sorry.

No, no, no, I'll repeat it. Um, yeah, exactly. Um, covert feminist, um, because my wife should be at home homeschooling my children and I should be out making the money. Can you like that? But, but again, that's the genre of that actual episode would bring those people in, right? And so I got torched on it.

Why though?

Torched. Someone said, oh, also Sean French, I love seeing my wife get dicked down by another guy because that's what she— because I said I'm glad she works because that's what she wants to do. Yeah, I mean, can you believe that? It's so—

people, that's harsh.

Yeah, I was like, dude, I don't know if I could do this again.

I'm like, and I have you know, best friends who, who do stay home and, you know, they, they homeschool there. And, but, and that's great too. Like, I think it's all wonderful. And yeah, but I just wish people would hold those judgments and comments to themselves.

Well, I mean, again, we— I don't know if they were bots. I don't know. I don't, I don't know. Yeah, but I mean, I know actual people would retweeted and like just torched me. And they were—

you've made it, people.

I made it, you know. So I was like, oh my God, what do I do? And then my former publicist says, welcome to fame. I'm like, oh yeah, this— you can keep this shit. Yeah, I'm sensitive. Like, I'm a real human.

Yeah.

Um, but like, you know, those, those people are always going to come out. It's the only time I ever experienced that this isn't fun. Like, this is not okay.

Like, this is very hard for me to deal Yeah, it was, it was really hard for me to deal with too. I mean, I've got, you know, some haters, and, uh, I used to always want 100% approval rate.

Yeah.

And I just know now that that's will never happen, and I have to be okay with that. Yeah, I am now.

Yeah, no, that's good because—

but you're never gonna kill myself and be like, okay, they think, they think I'm too this, so let me act now like this on my socials, or they think I'm being this way, okay, so let me, let me be this. And I'm like, how about I just be myself? But it's hard because I'm like, I want them, I want them to understand, I want them to like me, I want them to Of course.

Yeah, we all have this tendency to want to be liked, right? But like, one of the things that I like about you, and you know, I was telling my wife about, like, I was like, dude, I want to be friends with her because she's so real.

Thanks.

You know, like that— don't let these idiots, you know.

Well, no, it became like exhausting, and I was just like, this is— I'm gonna, I'm gonna mess up. I'm gonna say things I don't, because I remember one thing went really public and I was horrified by it, and I called— I don't have a publicist because I'm again too cheap with it, but she's, you know, because she's there They're so expensive. I love, I love her, but she, you know, I didn't really have anything going on at the time too, and I was like, all right, I don't really need one. But I said, oh my gosh, so I need to make some apologies.

She's like, just don't say anything, let it just let it go away, let it eat.

But I'm like, but they're gonna think that I'm— she's like, they will be on another story by tomorrow.

Yep.

And they were. But it still kills me inside that people might have a perception because I said something, you know?

And I'm like, yeah, well, it's so funny because I'm pretty tied into everything because my job is to understand What's going on out there in the industry? What's the commentary? I don't even know what you're talking about.

Oh, okay.

I, I was a couple years ago. Yep. Don't, don't even know.

Okay, great.

Don't even know. A couple years ago, that's like a decade.

I know, but it still eats me because it's not who I am. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I do.

Like, and that, it still bothers me to this day.

Yeah.

Because I'm like, that is not my, like, soul and my heart. And like, I, you know, I, I, that's not who I am.

Yeah.

But, and I think we all messed up, and I think, okay, I really learned from that. And yeah I did a DM to the person. They never— I don't think they ever saw it nor responded, but that's fine. I at least did it privately.

You did it privately.

You did it for you. I am so sorry.

I am so sorry. See, it takes a big person, you know.

Anyways, we're friends though. We will follow— I will follow back when we are officially friends. And I like your wife, she's awesome.

Yeah, my wife's great. My wife's great. I wish we were staying along. Does she have a nosebleed? Oh, a little monkey.

Sweet thing. Are you okay?

My daughter has a nosebleed, guys. She's behind camera. I love you, baby. Oh, um, you guys have to come back and come over and—

or come to the lake.

I would love to. I would love to. I'm here until tomorrow.

Okay.

Um, but no, we'll come back. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I was— I think I'm gonna be back up within a couple months.

Great.

So definitely take you up on that offer. Do the lake house. There's a— there's We gotta wind down here, but wind down.

Wind down. I see what you did there. Wow.

There's one thing that struck me in our interview that I connected with the movie, and I wanna talk about it.

Okay, go for it.

And I didn't go back to it until this time because it just wasn't the time flow of conversation.

Okay.

But your son's song, your 7-year-old, You sang in the hospital in that movie when your baby had passed.

Yeah. Wow.

I pay attention.

You sure do.

I pay attention.

That's a good one. And you know what's so funny is I started singing that actually post that movie because I have lost babies before. And so that scene also was very, you know, hard. And so there's a song that I won't take credit for it. My ex-husband actually, uh, came up with a song, the song we sing the kids, uh, every night, or mostly every night, and, uh, when they were babies, every single night. And then I started singing that song after that one, and it just was like a full circle—

wow—

moment with—

that's really cool.

Yeah.

Are you still singing too?

I mean, like, for fun. Okay. Yeah.

Okay, cool. Yeah, cool.

Wow.

I, I mean, thank you for being comfortable and showing your emotion. Oh, you're like, oh, don't worry, I'm locking it up right now.

Lock it up.

I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Um, I look forward to our friendship and meeting your family and, you know, kicking it at the lake house. And, um, but I'm also looking—

I'll be there since I'm not filming anymore. Apparently I'm not an actor anymore.

She's not an actor anymore. She doesn't want to work.

I know I do want to work.

I know, I know. I want to miss baseball, but you're going to work.

I'm going to work.

You're gonna work. Like, you'll be in something. You're gonna be—

we're gonna manifest TV. Can we manifest that? Yes.

Okay, I want to—

what do you want? What do you want to manifest? Getting Jason Segel on the show? Harrison Ford?

Well, no, that'd be awesome. That'd be all great. Like, you know, guests on the show would be great, but for me, what it's really about is I do want TV.

Yeah. Okay.

I've always wanted TV.

Like a podcast, TV? Like, what do you, what are you thinking? Or are we an actor too? I don't know.

I don't, I don't, I don't know. Everybody says like, you'd be good, you need to be on TV.

Yeah.

So I think for me, like, how it may start, and the way we see it starting, is me hosting. Yeah, like, uh, like a show. And I don't know what it looks like, but I also want to do meaningful things. So I think, you know, acting in, in some show, I think I would love to do that. Even if it's just my own show and we're, we're, we're streaming this type of stuff, like whatever it is, I'm open to it.

But well, don't forget the little people on your way up.

Don't forget me when you get that TV show. Let's—

that—

I'm in. Like, hey, there's this no-name in Florida, he's never acted, but you have—

I need his wife. I mean, I mean, she won't do it.

She won't do it. She won't do it. So you'd have to, you'd have to settle me.

Okay.

Yeah, she, she won't even come on camera.

Done deal. I know.

I think having an episode with her would be like—

oh, I think that would be like your most downloaded episode. I would listen to it tomorrow. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think that it would help people.

Yep.

You know, but hey, I mean, if you're not into helping people in their life, then, you know, you don't have to do it.

It's fine. She's helping your daughter with a bloody nose.

I know, seriously, that's selfish. It's— that's just her. It's, it's her daughter. You have to do it. I'm just— no, no, but no, again, thank you.

No, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Um, like I said, this But I'll say it again, thank you for thinking of me and, uh, having me on. I really appreciate it. I know your time is valuable, and so I do appreciate it.

Well, no, you're valuable. Your valuable time is too.

Jesus, is this an awkward—

like, that's an awkward moment. That's a blooper, people. That's what they call that. Take that, put that in the outtakes. No, your time's valuable too, and, um, I just appreciate you being so down to earth. And, you know, again, it's like, yo, reach out to you as someone who's a fan and has watched you in a lot of things and respected your work, and now we're friends. It's kind of crazy.

Heck yeah, follow back, dude.

Follow back, yo. Hashtag that shit.

So gotta get a Getty.

Yeah, I gotta get a Getty one day.

One day, maybe on our TV show. Yeah. Oh damn, there we go.

Full circle out in the universe. Now let's just work hard and see if it happens. But, uh, so everybody, thank you for listening and watching. Please go watch the movie Gaslit by my husband and you will not be disappointed. You know, there's some moments in there that could be really triggering, but it's also real life and it's a true story. And so check out Janet Kramer in that. And if you haven't watched One Tree Hill, go back and watch those things too, because those are awesome.

Take you about a year, but go for it. Yeah, I'm kidding.

It take us like 2 weeks. We get after it. We don't stop when we're tired. We stop when we're done. So, but anyway, guys, thank you so much for listening. Share the show with somebody you know, love, and trust, especially with someone who's gone through, um, some of the things that we talked about today with either emotional or physical abuse. Um, be there for them, share this with them because they aren't alone. And until next time, guys, stay determined.