Transcript of USMNT Dominates Australia, Advances To Knockout Stage | Morally Abhorrent

Welcome, proud Americans, soccer fans alike, to Morally Abhorrent. We are live this Saturday morning. Hope everyone is having a brilliant Father's Day weekend, and it got off to an amazing start as the United States of America have won their group with the result that happened in Turquía-Panama last night. The US have one hell of a path And to get into more of that and yesterday's performance, our founding forefather Chris Whittingham. Welcome aboard, Chris. I am presently looking at the FIFA resale market here for a, um, you know, just your standard mid-July Tuesday afternoon in, in Dallas, uh, Fort Worth here. Looking at a semifinal for the United States men's national team, possibly because, folks, I don't know if you've got that whiz kid friend of yours to do all the machinations and possibilities on the United States side of the bracket, but it can get a little goofy. And we're going to get into that and we're going to start sounding a little crazy. But Witty, we are in the position now where we're taking 3 points with ho-hum performances in the World Cup without needing our best attacking player. That is really encouraging if you're a United States soccer fan.

And I think the rest of the world has taken notice that this is a formidable host nation. What was your main takeaway from yesterday against Australia?

I think it's exactly what you said, which is that the United States did not have Christian Pulisic. And I think if you had said before the start of the World Cup, Christian Pulisic is going to miss a full 90 minutes what is the scenario going to be for the United States? It is not you win the group with a game to spare, you're, you're the second team to qualify for the next round. I don't think that's what anyone would have possibly had. And look, I don't think it was as good of a performance as it was against Paraguay in the opener. It is an admittedly very tough bar to hit. Australia were, I think, much more resistant to what the US did, but I still think they pretty soundly outplayed them for at least the first half. The second half It's sort of interesting. We've seen them, the US, in both of these games have to manage moments. And I think in the managing of those moments, sometimes things get a little ropey. Sometimes they give away chances. Sometimes they kind of forget to possess the ball. But in the overall, they have been the better team.

And I think it's very easy to ignore how difficult it is to be the better team in a World Cup game, even with a lower level of opposition. This is very hard. It's really hard to win games. Do you know that before this World Cup the United States had only ever won 9 World Cup games in their history. That's including in 1930 when they shocked the world and actually won a few games. It was actually the last time, 1930, that the US won multiple games in a row. So it's really hard to win World Cup games, and the fact that this one looked relatively easy after the Paraguay game was very easy is genuinely stunning.

To speak to how difficult it is to perform well at this World Cup. Also, quite randomly, if the United States does qualify for the World Cup, they tend to make it to the knockout rounds. This is the 4th straight knockout stage that the US men have made it to in World Cups that they have qualified for, but they get so usually in a scrappy way, you know, not winning the group, drawing their way, getting the occasional win against the worst team in the group. This was a dominant performance so far in this group. They have 6 points. The only reason that they're not the first team to qualify into the knockout stages was because of the schedule. Mauricio Pochettino is now tied for the most wins as U.S. men's national team manager in the World Cup. Chew on that for a second. These things are hard to do, and that's why we're getting a little goofy in the group chat right now trying to plot a path to New York, New Jersey. I thought the decision to bring Pepe into the starting 11 was an interesting one, and it paid off right away. That goal was created because of the threat, uh, that Pepe presented and, uh, the U.S. attacking strategy without Christian Pulisic, which I thought, given what we saw against Senegal and certainly against Paraguay, would be heavily reliant on his individual talent, especially when you consider all the take-ons they successfully had.

This was doing it a different way, and it speaks to what Pochettino did in all these friendlies that got him a lot of criticism, was optionality, versatility, individual talents that are capable of playing in different places. And it came to fruition against Australia, I thought, at least in that first half.

Yeah. And that's such an interesting sort of thing to talk about now retrospectively, because coming into the World Cup, there were two things that you kind of had, which was a sort of lack of enthusiasm for the US team, which is now crazy considering that we're plotting a path to the final, but also genuine questions about Pochettino. And I think everyone who kind of knows him and sort of was talking about his sort of idea of management was basically in Argentina friendlies are friendlies, they are not there to be taken seriously. Whereas for the US, because there were no competitive games really after Copa America, there was the CONCACAF Nations League, but even that is sort of a, a place to experiment. It's actually a place that Pochettino learned a fair bit about this team and kind of knew that he had to turn over the culture of this team. But I think when you look at these games, they are a chance to look at different things and try different players and build a sense of competition And I think he was very much taking the longer view, and it required a lot of trust from American fans.

I can kind of understand why they didn't want to have that trust anymore, because you— when you lose 5-2 to Belgium, when you lose to Portugal and fairly comprehensively, when inexplicably in one of your 4 games that you have before the World Cup against a high-level opponent you're playing Christian Pulisic as a striker— why are you playing Christian Pulisic as a striker? And I think there's a little bit of it that's it's a red herring for other teams to prepare for, but it's also, let's just see what this looks like. And while obviously it would have been better, I think, for the tournament overall that the US came into it with a sense of enthusiasm, that we're here now, we're a week in, and the level of enthusiasm is as high as it has ever been. I went to a bar yesterday in Fairfield, Connecticut. Yes, it was a holiday, but it was still a Friday at 3 PM, completely packed. You could not find standing room in this bar. And it's sort of amazing how quickly that can happen. You're one win away, you're one good performance away, and now the US have two good performances.

And now, as you say, there is sort of that reasonable path towards going forward and advancing deep into this tournament. And, you know, what does it look like if you get to the last 16? Well, you know, probably your most likely matchup is Belgium. Can you beat Belgium in Seattle with that home crowd that we saw yesterday behind you and actually take out a good opponent? Like, I think the US can do that. And then from there you're sort of in dreamland and figuring out, all right, well, if it's Spain, if it's whoever, then easy, easy, easy, easy.

We'll get, we'll get there in a second. I still want to chew on what happened a little bit yesterday, but I will let you fantasy book our path to MetLife. Don't you worry about it. But I want to pin you down a little bit on the decision to not play Christian Pulisic at all, and then what they ended up doing, uh, with him being absent. I know a lot of people are playing the result. I, I can tell you honestly, even if the United States men's national team lost that match, I am good with the decision to not play Christian Pulisic given his history, given his tend to overcompensate for an existing knock, and it usually just cascades into other injuries that are more detrimental to the team. So what'd you make of the decision, and then how they played specifically without them and how they tailored their attack?

Yeah, I, I actually, in terms of the decision to rest him, I completely agree with you just in terms of his history and in terms of You know, it's a calf injury. Calf injuries can get bad really quickly. They seem reasonably confident that it's not going to be a long-term thing. He was still training off to the side, so it's not like he wasn't doing anything. But I don't think this game was worth the risk, both in terms of— even if you lost the game, you still have a good chance of at least getting out of the group. We saw Türkiye struggle again last night against Paraguay. I think probably the information of everything that has happened goes into that decision. Both in terms of they were so dominant in the first half against Paraguay, there's no need to risk it in the second half. You played 45 great minutes, you're 3-0 up, you don't need to risk it. And then you see how the rest of the group plays out. Can you beat Australia without Pulisic? Probably. You just have to do it in a different way. And to sort of get into the Pepe decision, I have to be honest, I was completely shocked by it.

I think there was a lot of theories that were floated out there about who would replace Pulisic, how they would do it. I don't think anyone that I heard said Ricardo Pepe is going to be the one to do it. And you basically go to the 3-5-2, you move into a two-striker setup. With how deep Australia defends and with three center-backs, you have to occupy those center-backs and give them something to think about. It allows Balogun to get out wide, and he creates the run for the opening goal as well. And so I was genuinely shocked that that was the plan that Pochettino went with. But like you say, he has a different set of variables that he can sort of bring into this team, and you can play with wing-backs, and much more the attack goes through Dest and through Robinson. I thought Weston McKennie also did a superb job of getting into wide positions and creating well, because one of the things we saw from Australia's first game against Türkiye was just a complete frustration, a complete inability to get into good areas that aren't shooting from long distance, to actually find ways through them.

And the US actually got into the cutback zones, into the good crossing positions. They played well to actually open up an Australia defense that kind of seemed like it was going to be impossible to open up. So for everything that you could have maybe said— oh, I actually thought that the most obvious replacement would have been Tim Weah because he has similar dribbling ability. You mentioned that dribbling, that take-on ability. That was, I think, the thing you miss most by not having him. They didn't have it yesterday, and yet even still they were a threat, which I think goes to show a level of versatility which honestly is stunning there. And it's sort of fascinating to take it through the perspective of non-Americans on social media. That are going, wait a second, Pochettino has this team coached up. He has this team playing like Spurs in 2015 or Southampton in 2013 when he really earned his bones as a manager that looked like he had a, like he had a future and they had promise. So the fact that he is in that position now as, as being able to turn this national team— it's very hard with the limited amount of time you have to coach a national team to have multiple game plans, but the fact that you're there with a team that's capable of handling, that has taken it on and actually has been performing well is genuinely stunning.

So yeah, I, I was, I was shocked by the decision to bring Pepe in. I know you really rate him as a player, you love Pepe, and I think he showed that he had the versatility to play in that two-striker setup. And the two of them, despite the fact that they'd actually never played together under Pochettino, which it goes to show the fact that there's still things to be experimented with, and also that health has been a big problem for both of those players in the last few years. The fact that they've never played together until yesterday, and yet they made it look relatively smooth I think speaks a lot about what Pochettino has been able to do with the team.

Yeah, I do rate Pepe, but, uh, if you would have told me that that was how we were going to use him, uh, I would have said bring in Weah. I thought Weah was the obvious play there, and I, I gotta react to what I'm seeing here. Really, I was ready to, to give in once I saw how the US fought back against Germany, right? Because the way that Senegal match went, I perked up a little bit knowing that, okay, Number 10 looks familiar. We have something here. But maybe that was just an off night for Senegal. They didn't take it seriously. Then they let in the easy goal. I'm like, all right, maybe that was a fraud. And then they immediately settled into that game and, and bossed it for stretches. Then you have what to date is the most impressive U.S. men's national team performance in a World Cup ever against Paraguay. I was ready to give myself over to this manager and trust him and Look, as you mentioned, I like Pepi a lot. I, I don't know if that suits his abilities best. I quite honestly was a little surprised by the performance he gave, and pleasantly.

And I'm not a Pochettino guy dating back to all those stops that you highlighted, but I got to give it up to the guy right now. It seems as though his entire plan throughout the warm-up ramp-up phase to this World Cup So far so good. It is paying off. I'm glad you highlighted McKinney because I thought in a sea of great performances against Paraguay, he looked like he was struggling at times to keep pace with everybody else. That was not the case, at least in that first half for the US. I thought he was getting deep, box to box, really opening things up. I was really impressed with him. I honestly Witty, my man of the match here is Chris Richards. I think this guy's becoming a superstar for the United States. He's already in an upper echelon tier, uh, when you talk about that back line for U.S. soccer. Give me a little bit here on Chris Richards and how impressed you are with the young man.

Yeah, I think at this point, which is incredible to say because there are stars in the attacking part of the pitch, because Pulisic came out of the game and the U.S. still managed to score a couple goals and still managed to perform well, I think that necessarily each individual piece of the attack is not necessarily essential. Look, the US, the US is not going far if Pulisic doesn't come back healthy and doesn't get back to playing well. But I think that Chris Richards might be the most indispensable player in the team, which is incredible considering that for years we thought that was Tyler Adams. And I still think he is fairly indispensable in that midfield, but Richards is now to the point where I, I don't think the US can perform well without him. And, and we have seen them play okay Miles Robinson has filled in, Mark McKenzie has filled in. But Chris Richards is a level above at a position that has been very difficult for the US to find solid players in since like Matt Beasler was good in the 2014 World Cup, since, you know, Aghouti Onyewu and Carlos Bocanegra. It's been a bit of a struggle at that position for a while now.

So the fact that Richards, you know, he had the promise, he was at Bayern Munich, you know, and but it's not a guarantee that just because you're at Bayern Munich, you're going to develop into being a good player. You have to find the right move after that. And Richards at Crystal Palace has turned into an incredibly solid defender in a system that works. And you now have that sort of feeling of, oh, Australia can pump as many crosses as they want, Richards is dealing with all of them. And he dealt with 5 or 6 in the air yesterday, and Australia just have no chance against him. He's well positioned, he's, he's tactically aware of being in the right place, and he's just— he's big, he's tall, he can win his physical duels with any striker. And in, in that scenario where a team is just going to pump crosses against you, I, I think he's in— he's one of the very best in the world. And he is one of those players now that he's played well at Palace. Obviously they won a European trophy this year, they won the FA Cup the year before.

You already kind of are in the shop window as a result of that. But strong performances in the World Cup kind of take you in that next level in terms of perception, you know, in terms of just the American fan, but also with other European clubs that are thinking about, you know, there's always a need for center-backs who can physically dominate, you can play the ball on the ground. And Richards is one of those players where as long as that ankle holds up, I feel really good about the United States going forward. And it's sort of one of the things that is a real benefit of having won the group after 2 games is now they enter a game against Türkiye. You know, we talked about the ankle doubt coming in. I believe he picked— he picked up a yellow card yesterday. So I think it's a perfect scenario now to rest him for the 3rd game so that ankle can continue to heal. And so you don't risk suspension for that round of 32 game against whoever it may be. There are a couple of players that are on yellow cards. I hope none of them play a minute in that third game against Türkiye because Richards is that important to the team.

You can't lose him for a knockout round game.

Yeah, I want to drill down on what you would do for the upcoming third group match, um, but, um, let me, let me discuss with you a little bit that backline in general, um, because we're always going to be worried about that Tim Ream counter. I think There was a moment against Paraguay where he got caught, and also he put himself in a really bad position. Not— he's not a pacey player at all. That's a huge issue with him, where he overran an attack and he got caught. Look, this is— it's only a matter of time that it's going to catch up with the United States backline, and I'm not sure we have a world-beating keeper this, this tournament to, you know, stop one of those great chances on the counter. This is something that you're prepared to live with along that back line. I think at this point we kind of have to trust it, right?

Yeah, and, and you're right, there was that one moment where they got in behind, and it was because Ream actually— if anything, you would back him to hold his position well and be in a good position, you know, to, to hold that offside line. But he was the one that messed it up among that back three of Freeman, Richards, and Ream. He was the one who was kind of that step behind. He tried too late to step forward, which actually kind of sends your momentum the wrong way. Not that he has the recovery pace, but the US did well to kind of scramble drill, and that is also part of Richards' role, which I think you have to live with it because Ream is so good in distribution. He's so good with his passing and playing out of pressure. We saw Australia try and pressure him yesterday and almost funnel the ball towards him. That makes no sense to me because he's very good with his passing. He had one of the best passing performances we've seen from a US player at a World Cup against Paraguay, and he is essential. So part of that Richards role— and that's kind of one of the things that— the thing that I didn't mention in terms of what he brings is that ability to have the recovery pace to cover for him, and that is part of his job.

The reason why the US play in a back 3 as opposed to a back 4— Pochettino would love to defend out of a back 4 if he had 2 center backs that were pacey enough and strong enough in possession in order to play with the back 4. He would do it, but he doesn't have them. So you have to have Ream at 38 years old because he's useful for his passing, and you have 2 more athletic defenders next to him that can cover if he makes a mistake or cover if you're in transition, and it actually works reasonably well. So yes, I think it is absolutely worth the risk because you don't have an alternative. You don't have a left-footed ball-playing center-back that is as good in possession as Tim Ream is. It is worth remembering, and I heard Matt Doyle talking about this on another podcast, where he was saying that, remember a few years ago when Manchester City played Fulham in a game and Ream was excellent in the game, and Pep Guardiola actually said to him after the game If you were 24 instead of 34, I'd buy you because you were that useful as a left-footed passer of the ball.

That is the level at which he is a distributor from defense. So this is an absolute top drawer passer, which is not normally what you value in a defender. And maybe different iterations of the US, he wouldn't play, but in this setup, in this system, he is essential. So yeah, you have to deal with that risk and you have to hope that it doesn't bite you. And if it does bite you, that you have enough attacking firepower to counteract it down the other end.

So I heard Australia's manager complain about the officiating. By the way, you never really see an official get pickle juice trotted out to them or get stretched out by, uh, one of the players on the pitch. But I thought Australia was going to be better, and that was largely based on how impressed I was with their performance against Türkiye. And Türkiye, now 2 matches in, we see they're a total lemon in this tournament. So we're obviously fully bought in. We're, we're feeling the red, white, and blue. We're, we're catching our breath. But help me contextualize these first two matches a little bit, given now all the additional data that we have. We have a lot of performances that are built on the back of a bad Turkey A team. So are we overreacting here, uh, a little bit? What, what is your treetop view on this entire group? Because it does appear very favorable for the US.

Well, I mean, that's what we thought when it was drawn in December. We thought that this was going to be a group that the US could get out of. But I guess the thing that sort of gives you that level of enthusiasm and that level of hope is that the US, even when they have been in reasonably favorable positions— I don't think that their draw for the World Cup in 2022 was that bad, and yet they didn't go out there and beat Wales as they probably should have done. They're better than Wales. They should have beaten them. And I think that is what usually happens, is the US gets into a position, and the feeling that you always have is kind of of a sports team that, you know, is the Jeff Fisher Tennessee Titans. They're sort of perpetually 8-8. It's perpetually a struggle. It is perpetually, you know, disappointing. And so that's kind of what you— that's sort of like the baseline expectation that you have. So when you're blown away by a performance against Paraguay, when you comfortably win a World Cup match, it doesn't matter against who, when you comfortably win it, when you deliver upon— okay, when this thing was handed to us 8 years ago, when the World Cup was given to the US 8 years ago You're thinking you're the host nation.

The host nation usually benefits from that. Russia made the quarterfinal in 2018 because they were the host nation, among other reasons. But, uh, I think that there were— I think there's that level of, okay, you're a host nation, can you go out and deliver? And the fact that they are delivering— and I think also part of that feeling is the inspiration that they are giving to all of the, the country, to, to sports fans who very rarely watch soccer. That's what it really is, the thing that has me sort of emotional and wrapped up is I saw a tweet last night. I was on a scroll at 1:30 in the morning after Türkiye confirmed that we were going to win the group, and I saw really the one tweet that stood out to me was this one guy who said, my 7-year-old has been playing baseball his entire life. He's never picked up a soccer ball. He's never thought about soccer. And now he's in my backyard shouting, I want to be like Füller and Balogun. Like, that's the kind of stuff that really gets people excited. And so I think that's just sort of that emotional feeling of, oh my God, we're actually doing it.

Yes, in theory. You're in a group with Australia, Turkey, and Paraguay. You should win that group. You're better than all three of those teams. It's not very clear to see, but to actually go out and do it is a completely different thing. And how many times have we expected the US to do something, to take a step, to, to make a leap forward, and they don't do it? So I think that's why you're that level of excited. And also, I, I've watched all 32— at least a portion of all— is it 32 games we've had now? Yeah, 32 games of the World Cup. I haven't seen too many teams that perform better than the United States, and that is against similar levels of the, uh, similar levels of opposition. So there's like that part of it as well where you're watching all these teams and going, I don't know, I saw Brazil last night, they played Haiti, oh, okay, but like if we get into a knockout round game against Brazil, like I'm not gonna say that there's no chance. And, and look, Brazil will still be favorites, they're Brazil, but it's not no chance, which I think is probably different than what I was expecting coming in, where if you played any of the real heavy hitters in the tournament, I still think there's one or two that maybe the US don't stack up against, but it's not no chance.

Which is why you start to get crazy, because there is such a wave of momentum and a wave of energy that when the US returns to that stadium, if they do for the round of 16 to Seattle, there's going to be that level of enthusiasm there that it just feels hard now to imagine someone coming into our building, which is so cool to say, our building, and saying that you're going to win there, because there's— it's all US enthusiasm now.

Yeah, this is where, um, the U.S. sports fan has an inside track. We've been so beaten down by the system that we know how it works. So this price gouging actually works to our experience advantage in this regard. So I think we're actually going to have genuine home field advantages in these knockout stages, and that is a great equalizer when it comes to certain talent disparities. But even when it comes to Brazil, as you mentioned, I mean, they certainly will have the best couple of players on the pitch by far, but the rest of those players, I'm not seeing a difference. Like, the floor has been raised when it comes to the US Men's National Team's weaker players, right? I think that the, the tide has risen here. Let's take a brief look at Match Day 3. I want to see full rotation. As you mentioned, there are guys on yellows. We do not want to see Christian Pulisic at all. I think we agree there. What are you looking for in this match outside of the obvious rotation? And, um, how do you see this match going? Do you even care?

Well, I mean, yeah, it's kind of wild for the US to play just a complete dead rubber. It's, it's utterly irrelevant for Turkey too. At least if Turkey had something to play for, it'd be interesting. Interesting, but they're out of the tournament, they're eliminated. They might fire their coach by the time they play that game. So it is kind of insane that the US gets to that position with almost nothing to play for. But I think there's an amount of— you want to keep the enthusiasm going, you don't want to go out there and get smacked 3-0 or something. Um, but you're right, I think anyone who has any injury doubts— so that's Richards and Pulisic— and anyone who has picked up a yellow card in this tournament should not play, because if you pick up a second yellow card in the group stage, that means you get banned for the round of 32 game. So Tyler Adams picked up a yellow card in the first game, he shouldn't play. Chris Richards, who obviously has the injury thing as well, he shouldn't play. I believe, uh, Balogun has a yellow card, I should probably double-check that.

But, but there— but I think anyone who has any of those doubts— the other thing too though, just in terms of the game and in terms of how you play it, I do think that it is still worth playing some of these guys that don't have those concerns. Because yeah, Balogun picked up yellow, Anthony Robinson picked up a yellow yesterday, and in the first game against Paraguay, it was only Adams that picked up a yellow card. So those are the guys that I would worry about. I will say though, just in terms of the time in between, you have a game to end the group and then you have your first game of the knockout round, which will be on July 1st in Santa Clara. You have 10 days in between. I don't think it's necessarily good either to rest everyone, to have everyone on 0 minutes before that game. So even if it is— yes, you make 11 changes to the starting lineup or 9 changes or 8 changes, but you still bring on some of those guys that don't have any of those concerns with injury, a yellow card, as a sub, just to kind of keep them fresh, to keep them game fit, to still have them feeling like, like they're, like they're in the tournament and that they haven't rested for 10 days.

I think that might be worth considering. But yeah, this is going to be— there are going to be players who play in this game against Türkiye that I couldn't have imagined would have played a single minute in the tournament, which is great because it means that if there are injuries, at least those guys will have played a little bit. Um, I think Pacho want to keep some things going, but I would still imagine it's at least 7 or 8 changes to the starting 11 because, as we said, it's completely meaningless game, which is stunning in the World Cup. It doesn't affect your matchup at all, doesn't affect goal difference, it doesn't affect the other team. It is basically a training session, and I think that's how they have to think of it.

There were a lot of people that when, uh, the groups came out, bought their tickets to Turkey, USA, thinking that that would decide the group and ultimately the US's fate in the knockout stages. And now they're getting a glorified friendly, although it's, you know, Poach can make history. He can become the winningest US men's national team manager in World Cup history. I think Freese definitely has to play. He hasn't been tested all that much. I laughed out loud when they said, and that's Freese's first save of the tournament so far inside the first 3 minutes against Australia. Uh, to close the loop on Australia, made a lot about the officiating. I, I didn't really have a problem with the officiating. I thought it was pretty fair. I didn't expect Aussie, given everything we know about that country, that mentality, and how they've played in knockout tournaments, are a lot like the US. They don't dive when you think they should, and there was a lot of flopping around, a lot of complaining, which made me think that, man, the US is as good as I'm hoping for because they're inside their heads and these people are begging to the officials to get any kind of break, to kind of level the playing field a little bit because they know they're overmatched.

Did you question the officiating at all?

No, but I mean, you can see what Australia were trying to do. To your point, they were trying to buy decisions. They were trying to, you know, con the referee into thinking that Anthony Robinson swung an arm out at Matthew Leckie when he very clearly didn't. I think that there are a number of moments that— and look, I'm not going to say that we're perfectly unbiased here. But look, I, I watched those decisions, and I think you watch them back and you see a series of players trying to buy decisions, which is, as you say, not really the Australian way. And also, I think, was sort of suggestive of a team that was completely desperate and looking for some way to, you know, win a penalty to try and get their way back into the game. Because realistically, they just don't have the creativity to— if the US sit behind the ball— to break them down. They just didn't really have it yesterday. They had a couple moments, and there were a couple moments in transition. We talked about the one with Ream, but for the most part, it was a team that was outmatched.

And so what happens? You start trying to play the ref, you start trying to figure out all these decisions. I actually kind of thought the US in the game were almost completely unable to do anything on set pieces because anytime there was any contact, the referee was giving a free kick going the other way. There were 6 or 7 times the US had their free kicks disallowed for a foul given through some contact, not a lot of contact. I think there's a lot of players who play in England who are used to a lot of contact being allowed, and that is certainly being sort of tightened in this tournament. You don't see as much of that contact going on. So no, I don't think there was any heinously wrong decisions or the— or Australia got screwed. It was definitely a physical game. I think the US knew going in, they learned from the friendly that they played in Denver last year that Australia is going to get after them. It's going to be physical. You have to hit back. You're going to have to put tackles in. You're going to have to not take any shit.

And that is exactly what they did. And I don't think that the referee was any kind of storyline in the game. I just think Australia were beaten. They were beaten soundly and they were trying to figure out some way to get back into it.

Before we get into projecting what the knockout stages may look like, I want to ask you a general question about this World Cup. Look, I call them like I see them when it comes to baseball. They had issues with the game. They've largely corrected those. Basketball, well chronicled, their issues with the game. They're trying to address tanking. But, you know, the style of play and the math kind of crack in that, that sport has given it problems. With soccer, VAR was looked to be as a solution for a huge problem, but it's also caused a whole new bevy of problems when it comes to the pace of the game. I got to compliment this tournament so far, and I know people are anti-water break, and I get that, especially when it's in a dome stadium. I'm not here to argue that. I'm actually embracing the charm of holding up 4 fingers for the 4th quarter, but I get you there. I don't want to have this huge discussion, but when it comes to the things that have bothered me from the, the club level with VAR and the long delays and the, the offside uncertainty, I think this tournament's done pretty well in limiting the amount of time that those things have stopped the action.

What's your takeaway?

Yeah, and I think as well, they're trying to figure out the other time-wasting stuff. We saw it in the Turkey-Paraguay game last night where multiple times there were throw-ins that they took too long, you hand them over to the other team. The goalkeeper took too long to play a goal kick, you give a corner to the other team. The referee was also kind of hilarious and how he administered the game. But yeah, I think you're trying to figure out time wasting, which I think is a genuine problem, especially the goalkeepers faking injuries and all that stuff. You're trying to get that out of the game. But yeah, I think VAR has largely not gotten involved in kind of the way that it does in the club game where it's interrupting the game and saying we're going to try and find things where there otherwise weren't. They're letting the referees referee the game, and if something is heinously wrong, they go in and correct it. Um, I actually thought the US kind of was— they were a beneficiary of it in terms of the actual decision, but in terms of how it was administered, it was kind of one of the few refereeing faux pas of the tournament where a free kick is taken and then, uh, a VAR review commences, and it kind of slowed the game down.

But it ultimately went the US's way, and it kind of led to some fun cheers. No one got mad about it. But yeah, I mean, for the most part, that offside decision, which ultimately led to the second goal being allowed, it's given on the field, which is kind of what you want, where you want the offside— if it's going to be given, you want it to be given on the field so you don't celebrate crazily. And then the VAR is sort of this big celebration when they announced that it was a good goal. But yeah, that was, that was pretty quick. The level of technology that they have in FIFA has certainly improved. I think as the technology improves, particularly in offside, if those things can be done quicker, if not almost immediate like it is with Hawkeye in tennis, that I think completely improves the experience of celebrating a goal where you don't have to look and, oh, is it— is going to be given? Does the referee have his finger to his earpiece? Are you worried that it's going to be disallowed? So yeah, I actually think in terms of the officiating, other than the Paraguay game last night, which was kind of a joke where I was laughing out loud at how bad the refereeing was, um, it has largely been a well-administered tournament.

And I actually think FIFA usually gets this stuff right. Is sort of at club level. And when the game gets out to all the different associations who'll have different styles of play, who'll have different levels of examination and scrutiny, that you'll ultimately start to see the problems. But I think this tournament's been great from a gameplay standpoint, from a flow standpoint, and kind of all those things that you had concerns about.

Yeah, I think it's, uh, far surpassing the expectations that, um, maybe we applied too much of the outside stuff to this tournament and didn't give the American people and the sport enough credit that once these cultures got together and once these matches started and once America and their existing infrastructure when it comes to these stadiums, once they had an opportunity to highlight themselves, they would take the ball and run with it. And I think so far so good. All right. It's, it's time to take a turn into crazy town here. Chris Wittingham, let's look at this knockout stage path that has us going all the way to New York, New Jersey. Uh, the United States largely saying, uh, on the West Coast they don't make it to the Eastern time zone, um, if they, if they pull off a dream run here. So let's drill down on what this dream run looks like with the very first knockout stage. What is, what is the math telling us about our most likely opponent? And if you want to throw a couple options out there as we get a little further on, on who that could be on our side of the bracket, go ahead.

Let's get into it.

So the easiest, cleanest scenario for the next round, the round of 32, is if Bosnia and Herzegovina beat Qatar, which is likely given the fact they had 2 players red-carded and given the fact that Qatar are terrible, uh, that it is likely that Bosnia and Herzegovina beat Qatar. And in that case, it will almost certainly be Bosnia in the next round for the US. I have my sort of live table where I keep track of all the results And right now it is the US against Bosnia.

Well, that's a, that's a little, that's a little of a tough break that we have to play two countries. That's pretty unfair.

But yeah, I mean, but you know what, the US has had all sorts of challenges and they've managed to fight through them playing two countries. And by the way, we have experience playing two countries because we played St. Kitts and Nevis before, we played Trinidad and Tobago before. It can be difficult, but the US, but we're experienced through it. We've got experience of playing two countries. So, so Bosnia is definitely the most likely in terms of that. Um, if they lose that game or draw that game, then it kind of opens up. And unfortunately, it seems like the most likely team, uh, that would fill that void would be the third-place finisher in Group I. Now unfortunately, Group I is the one with three really good teams, which right now it's Norway, France, Senegal, and Iraq. Senegal losing that game to France right now are currently the third-place team. They would have to win and accumulate a level of goal difference in order, to, to get into that place. They'd have to beat Iraq in order to do it. Um, it could also be Norway that lose, uh, their final 2 games of the group to France and Senegal, uh, that falls to that position.

That would be less ideal. That's a much more difficult game.

Chris Richards versus Erling Haaland.

Oh my God, that'd be a great matchup. Yeah, I mean, and, and Alexander Sorloth as well. You have to deal with him, who's a good striker in his own right.

I mean, that's a lot better than what we usually do along the back line. Um, you have someone with, uh, some, some measurables there, but he's going to be a menace in the air. That's going to be a difficult, um, group to come against.

So yeah, no matter what, the US are rooting for Bosnia. I think if— for sure. I mean, yeah, Bosnia gave Canada a really tough game, um, but I think we saw in their, in their second game of the group that they're not necessarily this, you know, big contender. They had a player red-carded against Switzerland. Switzerland eventually opened them up. I think if the US play Bosnia-Herzegovina in Santa Clara, that they should probably be able to get that done. So then you look ahead to the, to the last 16. Uh, that game would be in Seattle, and it would be either— it would be the winner of Group G or a third-place finisher. So right now Group G is the one with Iran, New Zealand, Belgium, and Egypt. All of those teams are currently on 1 point, uh, because they all drew their opening game. Belgium drew with Egypt 1-1, and Iran drew with New Zealand 2-2. Uh, so Belgium still have to play Iran and New Zealand. You would definitely favor them to be the one that gets out of that group as the group winner. Right now though, because of the, the fact that they all drew the opening game, that actually would be Iran.

Iran would be playing Czechia in the last 32, and the winner of that game would play the US or Bosnia and Herzegovina. So that's sort of the ideal situation is— I mean, Belgium weren't great in that game against Egypt. They eventually figured it out when Romelu Lukaku came on, but It's not a team that even though they beat the US in March, I necessarily fear based off of what we've seen from them in this tournament. And I think it's not necessarily a slam dunk that they even win that group.

So I agree. I agree. I kind of like Egypt's chances in this group, which I think plays better to the US when you talk about just individual talent. So I, I'm not— Woody, I'm not too sure Belgium is better than Egypt though.

Yeah. I mean, we saw them play a game and Egypt were pretty probably better than them for 65 minutes. It was only when Lukaku came on. But if you're relying on Romelu Lukaku this year, do you know how many league minutes Romelu Lukaku played this year? 40. He played 40 minutes of football this year, and now they got to rely on him to play 3 games, 4 games, in order to get to a game against the US in the last 16. Heavy minutes when he has hardly played and is sort of a walking injury. So if, if he is the singular thing that makes them go I worry quite significantly, uh, for the Belgium national team. But that really is sort of the pool of teams we're talking about. Even if it's Czechia, I mean, Czechia were not any kind of impressive, and that can change, and we'll, we'll see it as the, as the scenarios develop. But yeah, so it's really the winner of Group G that you're most concerned with. But that group, I think, can go in any direction. And if it's Belgium, that I think is exactly the kind of game that coming into the tournament I said, this is what I want the US to do.

It's It's not about getting to a state, it's not about getting to a semifinal or getting to a final or to a quarterfinal. It's about beating one of the big teams. And while Belgium is not one of the biggest teams, they have some talent. They have some really good players. Jeremy Doku, Kevin De Bruyne, Charles de Ketelaere, Leandro Trossard won the Premier League with Arsenal. They've got some really good players.

Doku's going right. Doku's going to go right. Let's get the scouting report out there right now. Doku's going right.

Yeah, he's going to dance over the ball. He's probably going to go right. But Either way, I think with the US, I think that is exactly the kind of game that I will measure them up against. If they're really ready to take a step in this tournament, it is to beat a team like Belgium in the last 16 game with a massive home field advantage in Seattle. And then once you get to the quarterfinal, that's when you're kind of all over the place. So, uh, the, the quarterfinal, if they get there, uh, would be in Los Angeles, would be at SoFi, and it will be most likely the winner of Group H, which currently is the Uruguay-Spain group where everyone's on 1 point because Spain shockingly drew against Cabo Verde, I think you kind of become a massive Uruguay fan going forward then. Because if Uruguay beat Spain or draw with Spain, ended up with a superior goal differential or goal scored figure, then, you know, you're playing Uruguay in a quarterfinal potentially. Or it's the runner-up of Group K, which is the Colombia-Portugal-DR Congo group right now. The runner-up in that group would be Portugal, so obviously that'd be a fun one for a quarterfinal.

Or the runner-up of Group L, which is the England, Ghana, Panama, Croatia group. Uh, we would think Croatia can get there, but they have to, they have to beat Ghana and Panama. So you're kind of looking at a band of Croatia, Portugal, maybe Colombia, and then obviously Spain is kind of the worst-case scenario for a quarterfinal, just because I still think that they're really good even though they drew with Cabo Verde. You kind of need that poor start to continue if you're to get into that position. So that is the, that is the level of team that we're talking about in terms of getting there. You're hoping for an ideal scenario where maybe, you know, Belgium slips up, Spain slips up, and next thing you know, you kind of have a path to a semifinal without having to play one of the big teams, which sounds fun. I kind of am taking the Dan Lebatard approach to this where let's have some fun. Let's, let's play, let's play the most difficult path. Let's play some proper teams. And if we lose, we lose. But let's measure ourselves as a footballing nation against the best teams, because I think that we can.

I think that we can hold up to it. And ultimately, it is the only real measure of this country in this sport is if you can go out and beat the best teams. If you go out and beat the best teams, then everyone in this country and everyone around the world goes, American football has arrived. It has arrived in a real and legitimate way because at their home World Cup, they were able to deliver against the best teams, teams that we would not have expected previously. That they could beat. So that is kind of my hope, but there is still a world in which Uruguay win the group, which Spain slip up, in which, you know, Croatia is that runner-up, where you have a path against teams that you wouldn't have considered among the very biggest favorites, uh, all the way to the end.

Yeah, the US will be underdogs. Well, they'll be plus juice in all of those matchups. I don't want to necessarily say underdog if it's Croatia. I think both teams would be plus juice, but again This is where our experience with the ticketing industry helps. It only furthers the chance that we'll actually have a home crowd, which is a great equalizer. And while those teams, I will readily admit, many of them more talented than the US, not to the levels that I thought before the Senegal match. Dude, this is a horse of a different color lately with the US. All right, so we plotted out the course and then we go to Dallas. We obviously win that. Uh, it deepened the heart of Texas. And then once we get to the final, I mean, we're just flatly not going to lose a host nation final. No, so we plotted the course. We'll finally get the star above the crest. So let's talk about the, uh, the eventual losers, the rest of the field here in the World Cup. Um, lots of action since you and I last spoke. What are some of your macro observations about the tournament?

Uh, recently Brazil looks like it righted the ship to a degree. The injury to Rafinha is concerning the Hendrik memes have me laughing, but Vinicius is going to be a threat to pull off something sensational every match they touch the pitch on. Tell me your, your main takeaway so far from the tournament.

Yeah, I think it really is the fact that there aren't too many teams that we've seen so far that have put in 90-minute performances of dominance. I think that every team kind of has something where you go, they've got to figure some things out. And look, maybe for France that was just sticking Michael Olise in the middle of the park instead of sticking him out wide. And then he created a bunch, and Mbappé scored a couple goals, and they look fine, and they figured out their problem. Spain have to figure out their problem of health. They have to get Lamine Yamal and Nico Williams back. Maybe with them back, they look like dominant Spain again. But if you look at some of the other teams in the tournament— Brazil, you kind of mentioned it. I was watching that game late. It was like the 87th minute. That's 7 shots against Haiti. 7. Which is like— people would have thought that game is 25 shots, 6-0, and you're dominant. And I think that really is The biggest takeaway that I have sort of in the overall bigger picture is that all the teams that we were really worried about that would embarrass themselves, that looked like they were nowhere near the level, have risen to the occasion, have risen to— we're at a World Cup, we cannot go out there and embarrass ourselves, we're gonna go out there and play.

I think Haiti is kind of one of those perfect stories. Even though they haven't scored a goal and they've conceded 4, they competed and were probably better than Scotland. They competed and survived against Brazil. Uh, you look at some of the other teams, obviously Cabo Verde being one first ever World Cup. It's a nation that just doesn't have a big footballing tradition, and yet they survived against Spain. That I think is the number one thing, that expansion to 48 teams did not mean that all of these teams were going to show up here and be embarrassing and say, oh, this doesn't feel like the World Cup because, oh God, who wants to watch these teams? There have been a couple of games like that, like Czechia-South Africa was a pretty bad game, um, the Ghana-Panama game was a pretty bad game, Switzerland-Bosnia was bad until the red card happened. There have been some stinkers But I think for the most part, I think it really has showed the capacity of nations to, with sort of improved standards all over the world, with improved pitches, with improved coaching, with improved players, with recruitment and all this stuff, that there are going to be no nations that truly embarrass themselves.

I think that is such a win for FIFA that, you know, wanted to embark on this 48-team World Cup. And you can say that it was greed, and you can say that the long-term goal is to get China and India at this World Cup at some point. But for the moment, for what we're watching, I look forward to watching every game, which is not necessarily a given. That will be tested tonight when Tunisia take on Japan at midnight Eastern. But I am still probably going to stay up for at least the first half of that.

Oh, witty. But we got a storyline for that one.

Yes. Your boy, your boy, Hervé Renard is back.

Even if the action on the field isn't delivering, the sideline shots alone are going to be worth staying up for all night long. And also Japan just—

oh, and by the way, Mike, that game, Hervé, with the mountain of Monterrey in the background. Wow, wow, special.

If we can somehow get Freeman in there too and just have like all of the aggregated, uh, tweets over the last 4 years, my head might explode, and I'm not even sure which head. Um, Japan's precision against, uh, Hervé Renard, uh, taking over a team that has this really defensive-minded, uh, uh, culture. And then who knows what the hell happened in their last game. It resulted in the firing of the manager. I am curious to see that. I think that Japan's skill individually really flashed against, uh, Netherlands. You— it's rare that you can see preparation and, and just an entire soccer federation's planning and precision play out for a team that is trying to equalize talent disparity. I really love what I see out of Japan. This has been a really fun tournament so far, and I'm with you. Look, Curaçao, you can say they don't look like they belong, they got beat 7-1 by Germany. Let me tell you something, so did Brazil as a host nation. In terms of like embarrassing teams, you get that every World Cup, be it, uh, the round of 16. You'll see some embarrassing performances sometimes. So I, I don't think that the expansion has meant for more bad teams.

Look, Türkiye looks like the worst team in the tournament, and many people had them projected to win this group. So I'm all for World Cup matches. I'm the guy standing in the crowd meme. I like the World Cup. Give me more matches. And if it's going to be just an absolute drilling, that's cool. I'll be playing player props and I'll find my way to have fun. I, I, or I'll be shitposting on the internet waiting for the memes. I think all of this is great. I think it's a foregone conclusion that we're going to 64. I'm sorry for the purists out there.

If anything, every bet that FIFA has made so far has paid off, and that's a shame, especially for a property that's called morally abhorrent, including on the United States, which I think is one of the other major takeaways, is I think there was a real fear that forces bigger than the American people would make this a difficult World Cup. There have been a few stories of that, but for the most part, people are going to the games, people are enjoying themselves, people are culturally assimilating. There have been great, great stories of Algerians in Kansas, of Scots in Boston, of South Koreans in Guadalajara who have been able to enjoy the culture, who have melded with other cultures. It has been an incredibly welcoming World Cup. It's been a fun World Cup to take in on social media. I'm not really a vertical scroll guy, but yet I've kind of redownloaded TikTok because I want to take in all this fun stuff that's happening all over the country. I think a lot of people have been impressed with, oh my God, there are— how many stadiums do Americans have that all look— I mean, look at Seattle yesterday and you just sort of look at an overhead drone shot of Seattle and go, you know, it's a— it's an NFL stadium.

But people are wildly impressed at just the sheer volume of stadiums and infrastructure and how cool everything looks and how great— how great AT&T Stadium is. I think like, from my perspective, obviously I think I face more with, you know, people that cover the game around the world, and the reaction has been, wow, this country is impressive, impressive from a sporting standpoint, and that the people have been welcoming, that all these fears that you had before the tournament of, oh, you know, like, what's it going to be like on the ground? The, the reality is that on the ground, amongst the people, the people have made this tournament successful, have made this tournament welcoming, have— and now with the US doing well and getting people on board, there will be watch parties all over the country. There will be people that have World Cup fever. It's the only thing that I can talk about, and I appreciate that. I work in soccer, and so people want to ask me about it. But I still think like it has reached a level that I wouldn't even have anticipated, and it's based largely in part with the US having success.

But it's also every stadium is full, every game is fun, every game is widely available on broadcast television. And it is just this perfect bar, you know, watch party, go hang out with your friends and watch the games in the middle of the summer. All these cultures coming over, all the cool— so it has, it has ticked every box from an experiential standpoint. And I don't think that was a given, as you say, especially given the name of this program, which is apt in the buildup to the tournament. Um, but it has absolutely been just great fun and a great advert for the United States at a time in which it seems very difficult to come across those.

Yeah, shout out to the American people and shout out to all the thirsty bars out there just whoring themselves out for attention from Scottish fans. It's crazy.

I mean, are you going to go to the Marlins game on Monday? Are you going to go? I feel like you kind of have to go.

I would, I would love to be there, but I'm probably the only other place on the planet that I'd rather be, which is in Guadalajara for that DR Congo. I want to be a match, but look, I'm a partner in a local venue down here. We're all guilty of it. Scotland, Tartan Army, come on out. Drink us dry. We love it. It's like walking the street in Southeast Asia right now. Everybody's just showing their buttholes to Scottish fans. Hey, we have drink specials. It's incredible. Whitty, I love you, brother. We'll catch up again on Morally Abhorrent. Thank you for all the knowledge you dispersed here on this show. Always love having you. Thank you to our audience. We've got an occasional cadence. We'll try to preview match, uh, Match Day 3 in the groups. I'll figure out a way to do that. I'm headed to Mexico, uh, as I mentioned, for DR, Congo, Colombia, but we'll do our best to continue delivering content. Thank you for supporting. Thank you to Danny Benitez for engineering. We will see you again soon.