Transcript of Sam Darnold: Top 10 Super Bowl QB? Matt Verderame Joins to Rank the Best New

And, hey, we're not done.

We're coming back next year. Sheesh, Leonard Williams, why are you doing that, man?

Can't you just enjoy the here and now? I don't know. I guess declaring We ain't done yet is a weird newish tradition, as is the hyperbole around how good the team that just won is compared to all the other past winners. But fine, I'll play ball. Where do the 25 Hawks rank amongst Super Bowl champs? Well, to start, behind the 2013 Seahawks, the 1973 Dolphins, who were tick better than the undefeated 72 Finns, the '77 Cowboys, the '2016 Pats, and the '08 Stealers, who had one of several defenses this century that was better than the 25 Hawks. But none of those teams are even in the top 10. Would you like to know who is Good. At number 10, the 2019 Chiefs, who only won 12 regular-season games. But in the postseason after D. Ford lined up offside, K. C. Was down 24 to the Texan with 10 minutes left in the second quarter before rallying to go up 28-24 by Then down 10 to the Titans early in the title game before rallying to blow them out, and down 10 late to the Niners in the Super Bowl before rallying to win by 11.

And by the end of it, Alma Holmes was already an all-time great. At number 9, the 17 Eagles. Poor Carson went Not literally, of course. He's quite well off as it happens. But spiritually, I mean, he was going to win the MVP, probably the Lombardi, too. Philly went 13 and 3, and in Super Bowl 52, beat the Patriots with their backup QB. Not that that should make you feel bad yourself, Jared Stittam. At number 8, the 84 Niners. Walsh's crew went 15 and 1 and killed Moreno's Dolphins, 38, 16 in the Super Bowl. I could have put this team up a little higher, but we'll get to another Montana-led team in a sec, and that one had Jared Rice on it. Meantime, at number 7, the 85 bears who went 15 and 1 with the most iconic defense ever. They allowed just 12. 4 points per game and pitch back-to-back playoff shutouts before shaming the Pats 46, 10 in XX. Super as they were, though, I do think they dodged a bullet by not having to see the 46 defense's, Aqua Kryptonite named Moreno, again. Next, at number 6, the 86 Giants. Yeah, the 14 and 2 Big Blue defense, headlined by the greatest defensive player of all time, LT in a season of heavyweight teams, hung 49 on the 49ers in a playoff game.

Isn't that rude or is it a neat little tribute to the Niners? Either way, Phil Sims and Company had the highest playoff point differential of any Super Bowl winner and whipped Elway 39, 20 in the Super Bowl. Next at number 5, the Ot 4 Patriots, who beat 15 and 1 Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh, then dumped the 13-win Eagles in the Super Bowl. 14 and 2, the League's second-rank defense. This is the Lombardi that made the Patriots a dynasty. At number 4, the Inexplicable 91 Skins, 14 wins in the regular season, then in the postseason played the 10-win Falcons, 12-win Lions, and 13-win Bills, and wrecked them all. Gibbs's gang led the League in scoring and turnover margin, and I know the analytics peaks love them, which is good because this team makes no GD sense to the naked eye. Mark Rippen with Ernest Biner? An old art monk? What in hell? Voodoo in DC. At number 3, the 99 Rams, who set the Super Bowl era record for best point differential and scored what was then a record, 526 points. With all due respect to Mahomes and Lamar Jackson and the 85 bears, the greatest show on Turf is still the most, oh my God, this is revolutionary.

The sport's never going to be the same moment of the Super Bowl era. Now, they weren't as dominant in their last two games, or they might have been even higher up, which takes me to number two. Here they are, the best San Francisco team of the '80s, the '89 Niners, 14 and 2, League's best offense, third-rank defense, wrecked real good Vikes and Rams teams in the NFC playouts, then humiliated L. A. 'S 11-win Broncos, 55 to 10 in the Super Bowl. Niners were so good that year, they didn't even need the architect Bill Walsh to run through pro football. And at number one, the 1978 Pittsburgh Steelers. Yeah, I'm biased. I don't care what you didn't say. But before the season started, the NFL decided Mel Blunt was too good, so they created a rule in his name that made it easier for receivers, which favored passing teams, which people thought would scuttle to run heavy Steelers. But instead, Terry Bradshaw led the league in touch downs and won the MVP. The 14 and 2 stealers then handled the reigning AFC champion, Broncos, the AFC second best team, Oilers, and the defending champion, a. K.

America's a legend team, and here's the best stat of them all. Over 19 games, they lost one game by seven points, another game by three points, and that's that. All of this is the same. Enjoy your Lombardi, Seattle. It counts exactly the same as the other 59. Now, with that out of the way, let's start the show. Yes, hi, and hello, my fellow football Americans. Welcome to Football America, presented as ever by our pals over at DraftKings. Draftkings, the Crown is yours. A lot to get to. We have Chaz Batch coming up, plus our pal from Sports Illustrated, Matt Verderam, to talk some Super Bowl era history. Looking forward to both of those. We'll get in on Aaron Rodgers a little bit at the back of the show with our guy Chaz Batch. In the meantime, it's episode 51. Who wore that number best in sports history, Gino Fuentes?

I was surprised by the baseball crop that wore number 51. You would think 51, that sounds like a linebacker number, an offensive alignment number. And Dick Buck has represented that one well, and Randy Cross did as well for the 49ers. But in baseball, it's Ichiro, it's Randy Johnson, it's Trevor Hoffman, it's Bernie Williams. It's a weird number to have baseball be associated with.

Does Butkis beat any of those guys? I'm not going to say no. Ichiro is up there. I think the best of that group, and no disrespect to Butkis or Ichiro, but Randy Johnson is the answer here. He is the most forgotten, all-time great starting pitcher. He's in the top five or six starting pitchers since World War II, and he doesn't get mentioned nearly as much as I think he deserves to. So that's who we're honoring with 51 in football, though. It's Butkiss, clearly. All right, fellows, you just heard me talk about. I get it. We all want to be able to say we just saw the best thing that's ever happened in the sport that we all love to watch there. Do you think the Seahawks deserve some of the buzz they've been getting as one of the best teams to ever win a Super Bowl? Gino, your house roots for the Hawks. I'll start with you.

I thought the Legion of Dunes was a better defense, personally. Maybe they didn't... No, actually, they did play better in the Super Bowl in their Super Bowl. They destroyed Payton Manning that year. I think it was 43 to eight, if my memory serves me correctly. Correct. Nicely done. They had a better offense, too. Sam Darnold, it's still- I think that's close, at least.

But I do think... So Sam Darnold, at, I guess, the height of his powers versus Russell Wilson.

Russell Wilson was a first down machine. I don't know if you remember that he had 800 yards rushing that year. He would routinely get to third and eight, third and nine, and he would get the first down. And then you'd have Marshawn running up your ass. It was two players after that. They were impossible to stop. They were impossible to get off the field.

Mike Fuentes is out on a cruise. That's what happens when football season ends. In his stead is Ethan Badowski. Ethan, how say you? You're a young fella. You probably have never even heard of some of the teams I mentioned there.

No, I've definitely heard of some of them. But to me- You have heard of some of them. The team that stood out, first of all, definitely- Do you know that the Rams used to play in St.

Louis?

I do know that the Rams used to play in St. Louis. I remember when the I'm smooth from St. Louis. Yes, I'm not that young. But they did win the Super Bowl the year I was born, which we were talking about earlier, which I know I'm sure made a lot of you guys feel old, that greatest show on Turf team with Kurt Warner and all those guys, Marshall Falk. For me, certainly, the 2013 Sea Hawks, I think, stand out as one of the greatest teams ever. They certainly have the most dominant Super Bowl- Don't do ever.

Do in your lifetime.

In my lifetime.

I don't weigh in. You never hear me talk about Otto Graham. Because I didn't see him play. So how can I have an opinion? I don't do that about Bobby Orr. I barely even know what Bobby Orr looks like. I've seen all the highlights, but I don't try to place him among NHL guys I've actually watched. So go with that. Use Dave as your guiding light here, Ethan, and the best team of your life.

In my lifetime, one of the teams that comes to mind is honestly last year's Eagles to stop the Chiefs from getting to the three-peat in that fashion. They were just unbelievable. It was hard to fathom when it was happening exactly what was happening, that they were beating up on this team. That, to me, is still a dynasty, even if they didn't get the three-peat. They are the team of this decade, of this era of the National Football League. And the Eagles made quick work them, destroyed them. What? 40 to 16 or something like that, Dave. To me, I think they have to be in the conversation. If the 2007 Patriots had won the Super Bowl, that would be an absolute no-brainer.

Well, of course. But also, you just heard- But they didn't do it. I'm surprised. But they didn't get it done. You Miami boys didn't come at me about the 72 Dolphins, undefeated though they were.

I didn't put them. I was so happy when they lost that Super Bowl. That is one of my earliest Super Bowl memories, is rooting so hard against that team so that the Dolphins could remain the only undefeated team of all time. But the Chiefs in general, I just think you would say all of those teams, pick any one of them, would probably be the best team in my lifetime because they've been the dominant force.

The takeaway for me is you're a son of a bitch because now I have to go back and I think you just have to remove everything I said at the top because I didn't even put last year's eagles in my top 15. I think you're probably right.

They belong to the guy who stick with the 2017.

They went with their backup QB. That's got to stand for something.

It was like, wait, our MVP When Phil Sims got hurt and Jeff Hostetler ran them the rest of the way to the Super Bowl, but it was Phil Sims.

We're talking... Carson Wentz was going to win the MVP. And he got hurt, and they didn't skip a beat. That has to stand for something, too.

And they beat braided At the height of his powers in a game, he threw for like 400 yards. He threw for 5,000 yards.

He threw for- Not 5,000.

4,66 in that game.

He threw for almost 500 yards in that game and multiple touch downs. I can't remember exactly the stats right now. I don't have them in front of me.

That Patriot team wasn't that good, but still.

Yes, but that offense was incredible. And they have a special place in my heart, that Eagles team, because that game was on my 19th birthday, and I was so worried that braided was going to ruin my 19th birthday. And then the Eagles went out and beat them. So that Eagles team will forever have a special place.

Gino, this Badowski makes everything about himself. I like the cut of his gym. Don't you know how things work in this show, in this world, Dave, that we live in, this middle art media world? Well, no. The only adjustment I'd like you to make is I appreciate spiritually that you're making it about you, but I'd rather you try to make it all about me because that would be the sweet spot for me. All right, you see, one game's result can change everything because if the Chiefs had beaten the Eagles a year 100 %. Mahomes would probably be the best quarterback of all time in a lot of people's opinions. Let's dig in on that subject and a whole bunch of other Super Bowl era history with our guy from Sports Illustrative and beyond, Matt Verderam. All right, here he is just in time to talk some Super Bowl era history. And I mean this sincerely. I don't know if there's anybody who does it better than this fella does, even though he's a little younger, even than Dave Damoschek, if you can believe that. He is the author of a great new piece in Sports Illustrated, The 60 Greatest Moments of the Super Bowl Era.

I contributed. I consulted my guy, Verderam, on this a little bit. Also, you can hear him on the Matt Verderam show on Patreon and that football show on KC Sports Network. It's our guy, Matt Verderam. What's the poop, fellow?

What's going on? How are you?

I'm doing fine. I'm doing fine. I hope you're enjoying. Are the Devils? Are there any new Jersey Devils playing in the Olympics right now? I guess Jack Hughes.

Jack Hughes, Jesper Brad, Jacob Markstrom, but the Devils, the Devils suck. So we don't even talk about the Devils.

You don't want to? I mean, I'm chomping it a bit to get back to NHL action so much. I've become a curmudgeon about Olympic hockey.

I'll get the Whalers sweatshirt on for you as we. We're moving out to West Hartford here around Memorial Day, so figured, get a little Hartford Whalers gear to fit in with the locals.

Good for you, man. And congratulations on another great season of covering the NFL. Great stuff from you in San Francisco/Santa Claire, all the rest of it. We're talking about where this Seahawks team stands in history. What's specifically weigh in on the defense? I feel like people are a little over the skis, as good as the Seahawks defense was about where it ranks, even in the last quarter century.

Yeah, look, I mean, When you look at the league and you look at the history of it, if we're talking, even to your point, the last quarter century, they're not the 2000 Ravens. They're not the 2015 Broncos. They're not the 2013 Legion Boom. They're not the best defense in their own franchise.

I agree with that. I'd also put the Jags ahead of them, 2017 Jags.

That was a very good defense. I mean, your stealers, when they were winning a couple of Super Bowl, yeah, with Paulo Malo and Harrison, everybody. Yeah. I think the Seahawks defense is a very, very good defense. I don't look at them and say they're a historically great defense. I thought they had one of the best defensive Super Bowl ever, for sure. But over the course of history, listen, This year is weird. There's a lot of metrics out there, the analytics, that'll tell you this is one of the best teams ever. My argument with that is everybody spent all year saying that nobody's any good. They were definitely the best team in the league. I think they were the deserving champions. They were absolutely a worthy champion. Do I think they would have beat the Eagles from a year ago? No. Do I think they would have beat the Chiefs from 2022? No. So, yeah, they were an excellent football team. I think, though, that it has to be noted, the league was pretty horrendous outside of themselves, the Rams, and who else would even throw in there? After those two teams, it's a cliff to get to the next team.

I agree with you. I do want to say, because Seahawks fans can, like most fan bases, get caught up in their feelings, you're trying to diminish us and whatever. No, but I do think that this is a weird element. I said at the top of the show here, it's a newfangled tradition to be gluttonous. If you just won, you have to immediately declare, Don't worry, we're coming back for more. Just enjoy that. It's real hard to get just that one. And then it's also everybody, the media and I guess, influenced by the fans. They have to weigh in because I think we deep down, as I've said before, and that's why the Nike ads around LeBron were so great way back when about I am witnessed. I think we want to be able to say, and it's why everybody puffs their chest out about their era's best. I saw Jordan, so he's better than LeBron. No, no, say the people from the '60s. Bill Russell was better than them all. I think we all want to say we saw the best, but I think we get a little wild and out of hand with how good the Seahawks were.

They were a very good team, obviously. They went 14 games. The other thing that came out of Super Bowl week that caught my ear and immediately made me think of you because you're dorky like me and you love to try and contextualize. The reason, I think, I don't want to speak for you. The reason we love history is because it provides context to what otherwise would sit in a vacuum. It's easy to say, See, the Seahawks are the best I've ever seen. Yeah, you have amnesia a little bit. Let's go back in history and actually see where they fit in there.

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And Our guy, one of our favorites here, friend of the show and all the rest of it, Ryan Clark, said that if Stafford had won the Super Bowl, he would be one of the 10 best quarterbacks of the Super Bowl era. And of course, that's easy to throw out there into the vacuum and say, Yeah, Matthew Stafford has had a great career, and he is a Hall of Famer. It's another thing who you are implying he ranks ahead of. So I thought we would hold, if not his feet to the fire, we would take a look and see where Matthew Stafford and otherwise rank there. And I have a number of different approaches to this. In fact, I think I really bugged you last night when I was texting you. Different ways we could have this conversation, top 10, top 15 or whatever. I did a thing at the NFL like a decade ago, By decade. So at Super Bowl 10 here was the best quarterback in the history of football. And it was Johnny U, I think, is who I had. And at Super Bowl 20, it was Bradshaw. And by 30, Montana had jumped past Bradshaw.

And so it goes. So let's do right now, shall we? Let's see if we can, correctly between the two of us, divine who, in fact, the top 10 QBs are. Is that a simple enough approach to it instead of getting into by decade and all the rest of it? I do want to do something- Are we clarifying this by Super Bowl era? By Super Bowl era. Again, you and I- We have you, Bill Lachman and Sammie Ball off this list. Right. Well, and again- Otto Graham. I should say this, too. I know I've said it a million times, but if you're a new listener to it, Here's how I know that what happened before the Super Bowl era began didn't matter. In 1962, the defending champs, the Green Bay Packers, Vince Lombardi and Bart and all the rest of it, lost to a team of college All-stars. Lost to college players. Imagine that. Who didn't even know each other. College players beat the defending champs. Ergo, nothing that pro football had yet to really ripen, even in the early '60s. It was a different matter by the time we got to the Coliseum with the Chiefs and the packers showing down.

Okay, so first one is easy. I know we'll have a match here, right? Yes. Your number one of all time is Grady. Okay, we don't have to spend time on that. What is interesting immediately is number two, that if you get in the wayback machine, or not even in the way back, but just go back 13 months. If Mahomes wins the Super Bowl, I A year ago against the Chief- He's two.

If he wins that game, he's two.

Oh, is that right? You don't think he jumped... I think the conversation to what I just said five minutes ago, witnessing history, people would put him up there.

Well, listen, if he won that game, they three-peat, right? So that's a huge feather in the cap because no one's ever done that. That's a legitimate thing. But for me, as we sit here, Mahomes is on the Mount Rushmore, but I would put Montana, too. I would put Montana, too.

Saucy. I love that one.

He won four Super Bowl Look, I know you know this because we talk all the time. Montana, people look at his numbers and go, What? He only threw for 4,000 yards. Montana was an absurd player. I would argue the 89-9ers are as good as any team that's ever walked on a football field. Go look at the playoff games that that team played. It was a joke. They were playing teams and beating them like they were the worst team in the league every week. Montana, to me, is still number three. He went 4-4 in the Super Bowl. I do think that it's an argument with him and Mahomes because Mahomes has already been to more Super Bowl, and Mahomes is a transcendent player. But for me, until Mahomes wins another one, I would put Montana, too.

I like that. The devil's Damosheck push back to Montana Montana is, and I think it's a fair point to make, is that he never lost a Super Bowl, but also he got knocked out, and the Niners got knocked out. In some games, like the '86 Giants, beat him 49 to three. I mean, he got knocked out halfway through that game. They were getting killed.

They lost to Wade Wilson. That was the one. That's the worst one. That game, that team should have walked to the Super Bowl, and Anthony Carter had the day that he had, whatever. But yeah, I would put Montana, too.

Okay, so at least our top three, and I doubt there would be very many people who would push back real hard on, braided, Montana, Mahomes, or braided, Mahomes, Montana. That would be the way I go. Okay, now let's get into it here because here's where I think it starts to get spicy, and it becomes a lot more subjective about what you like in a guy and how much you're going to involve the numbers and otherwise. At number four, you have?

I have Peyton Manning. I think. So here's the argument of Manning, four and against him. He was in the regular season. You could argue he's the best quarterback of all time in the regular season. More MVPs, all time, a single season, touch-send, a single season, yardage, all that stuff. He was not a great postseason player. He was a very mediocre postseason performer. The two Super Bowl, he won. The last one, he got carried, too. And the first one, he got a lot of help. Now, in the ASG title game, he played great as that game were on, and he slayed the braided Dragon and all that. You could go a lot Here, am I?

Given that history, I always thought that's the nails performance of Peyton Manning's career. Oh, no question. It's a defining- He throws a pick six at home. He has all the pressure. And then belt his back.

Yeah. No, I think that's a defining one. I have him in four. I thought about Elway. He went to five Super Bowl. Look, Moreno is the weird one, right? Because Moreno went to one, but everybody agrees he was spectacular. I'll go Payton Manning.

Okay. Payton is hard to to argue real hard against for the reasons you just cited, but you also provided the other side of it, which is not a small matter how you perform in the postseason. I do think, I mean, the one he gets comes against Rex Grossman and the bears. If you go back and watch that game, and I'm dorky enough to say I have gone back and watched it, man, that game is hanging in the balance. I think we remember it differently, not like Rex Grossman was great that day. I mean, obviously, the bears first points come on the opening kickoff. They weren't a world beater, but man, that game was real tight. And I don't think paid Manning even really should have been the MVP of that game.

Dominic Broads should have been.

And then he just, you or I would have won that Super Bowl with the Broncos had we been under center in the January of 2016 and February of that year. I'm going to go Aaron Rodgers here. And it's funny because they're very different stylistically, but you could say the same thing about the two of them. If Payton isn't the best regular season quarterback of all time, I think Aaron Rodgers is. I think Aaron Rodgers, if you rank the best individual QB seasons of the Super Bowl era, I think Rodgers has two of the five. I think He's a four-time MVP. Yeah. And he's different now. And I think he's weirdly, not weirdly, I think we would mostly agree with this, everybody out there, that the last three years have served to tarnish his legacy a little bit, no matter that he He won 10 games with Pittsburgh, the Jets years were a shame and all the rest of it. Even his departure from Green Bay put a stink on him. He self-imposed all that. Still, though, I mean, those years he had with Green Bay, and A lot of those seasons, Jordy Nelson is number one.

It's not as though he was throwing the ball to Jerry Rice.

No, never had a Hall of Fame receiver in his career outside of Adams, who they didn't win with, of course. Adams will walk in. But when they won, it was Jennings and Driver and Nelson. They were very good players, but they weren't transcendent. He actually was going to be my number five.

Oh, great. I'll also say this as you jump in. I think he is even the evidence of Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen. I think not raw athlete like, Man, that guy would win a decathlon. I mean, for football. Aaron Rodgers is the most gifted guy I've ever seen.

No, there's no question that he's one of the most talented. He's right up there. I have at five because he won four MVPs. He went to a Super Bowl. He wanted. He was a Super Bowl MVP. He was great in the game. Look, the knock on Rodgers is obvious. He never got back. And in the playoffs, he's had some bad games. But that being said, to your point, the Jets in the Steelers years, those years over the course of history, they're going to fade. They're going to fade. Nobody cares if Johnny United's played for the Chargers. Nobody gives a damn. It doesn't matter. Nobody remembers those years.

We can argue that point. I can go I went through several late chapters that damage the way we regard some legends.

Some guys, I think that's true. But when you're talking about the truly all-time great... I don't care that Joe Namet sucked on the Rams. You know what I mean? Joe Namet, that's a whole other conversation. But Look, I have Rodgers at five, four MVPs, a player that at Brady's apex, people argued that is Rodgers better than him. If you're arguing at that point... To me, if there's an argument, are you better than Tom braided for a stretch of That's something. So I have him at five, right behind Manning.

Okay. And at number five, I will go with the guy who is one of one, all due respect to Jim Kelly and Frank Tarkenton. He is alone on that pro football island. Dan Marino, Lombardi-less, as I keep saying, Verderam, he's going to get some company within 5 or 10 years. Some other Hall of Fame level guys who guys will have gold jackets, but no Lombardi to their name. I go Marino five here, and So that brings us to your number 6.

I have Elway. I have Elway at 6. Elway is a weird guy because he's the classic example of you look at his stats in today's day and age and you go, Wasn't that good? Look at his numbers. He didn't have 35 touch downs in a year. I caught the back end of Elway's career growing up, but I'm enough of a freak that I've gone back and watched probably 50 John Elway games in my life. John Elway was Mahomes before Mahomes. The ability to just go to any spot on the field from anywhere. I am going to throw the ball across my body and hit Mark Jackson 55 yards downfield. I think because he went two and three in the Super Bowl, and let's be real, the three Super Bowl, he lost a in those games. Those Bronco teams had no offense. They had nobody. I mean, who's the best player he played?

Vardaram. Vance Johnson. As you know, I am huge on postseason QB wins, and that they are not a part of the conversation. They are the number one factor. Elway did. It's better for where he stands on a list like this to have gotten those two late in his career. But those were Terrell Davis trophies. They were. He was great in '33. The second year, it wasn't '98, but '99, Elway was real good, and that Broncos team was a tick better, probably, than the '98 edition. But as you said, it's not always Elway's going all the way. Elway, the '89 team was a little bit different. But those first two, Bronco's teams of the '80s that went to Super Bowl had no GD business anywhere near the big game except for him.

No, those teams were ridiculous.

Samy Winder was their feature. It was fat Samy Winder. And like you say, Vance Johnson and Steve Watson were catching the person.

Clarence K, that team was ridiculous. The team, the Browns were a better team, both years. And the Broncos were able to beat them. The Broncos were actually favorite over Washington. People forget that. And then Doug Williams went beserk in the second quarter, and that was the end of that. But I don't hold it against LA that they got killed by the Giants and the Niners. They should have gotten killed by the Giants and the Niners. Those teams, I just finished talking about the 89 Niners. In my opinion, I think that might be the best team that's ever walked on a field. The team was unbelievable.

I just named them number 2 on my all-time, yes, Verder.

I'm sorry, you're not too far- Who was number 107, the Pats? No? Okay.

No, there's another team in there. Take another guess, see if you can get it. Really? No.

Well, you're a Stealers, you're 78 Stealers. You're 78 Stealers?

Yeah. There you go.

Okay. So they They were great. They were great. Brad Chal's the MVP.

You understand, if I said, if we did a different exercise here, Verderam, and I said, name for me the 10 best teams of the Super Bowl era, not one season team. I mean, greatest-Right, overall collection.

Eras ever.

Yeah, Out of those 10, you would definitely include the '70s Cowboys, the '70s Raiders, maybe even the '70s Vikings, and amidst all that, and the '70s Dolphins, too.

They would definitely be in there. Right, and the Stealers beat all those teams.

Amidst all of it, the team that was head and shoulders above them all, Verderam. That's why they're on the list. And call me biased if you want.

No, the Stealers are the best dynasty of all time.

I've got at number 6, I've got Payton, and then at number 7, I've got Brett Favre.

Okay. 7, I had Moreno, so we're pretty close. I had Moreno at seven. I think Moreno is the only quarterback, in my opinion, who's retired. I mean, we'll take out guys who are still playing, who's retired, who didn't win a ring, who I don't really hold it against them. That guy was unbelievable. People do not understand. The 1984 season that that guy had, that's like if somebody threw for 7,000 yards this year. That is our running back ran for 3,000 or something.

By the rules, if the rules were The same apples to apples comparison. That is still the best.

It's unbelievable. Go watch when he played the 85 bears and just lit them up like a Christmas tree. Nobody could score in that team. Marino was sublimate by the fact that Shula was about 100 years old and just stopped adjusting the last 10 years of his career. They had no run game, and the defense, like John OfferDoll is the best player on it, got hurt every year. I have him at seven. Moreno, much like I just said about Mahomes for a few minutes, he was a transcendent player. Moreno was just a dominant force of nature. The worst thing that probably happened to him was that '85 AC title game. They should have beat them. I actually asked Nat more about this years ago. I think if you win that game, how do you feel about the bears? We would have won that game. He was like, they blitzed nonstop, and Moreno would have just killed them the entire time. No one else. They got their rear ends beat. But I have Moreno at seven. I think Moreno has to be in the top 10, even though he didn't want to see.

I got to tell you, fellows, This conversation would be better. They always say that if you want good drama, you need some conflict. And Verderam and I park our cars in the same garage over and over and over again and make the exact same points about why we think these things. I'll go, I'll just to round out mine. So wait, I'm at seven with Farr, then I go Elway at eight. A lot of his big rallies and all of that, he's a gunslinger. Him, Farr, Rothsberger, they very often would throw their teams into trouble and then play hero and get their teams out of trouble with big fourth quarters. But still, L. A. And then, here's a fun one. You ready? First modern guy, Josh Allen. I'm putting Josh Allen in there. I'll say you. Okay.

I'm not putting Josh Allen there. So we're going to be different there. I'll give you a... So at 8, I actually have a guy, I have Troy Akemen.

Underrated. I'm with you, man.

I know people love to do this whole thing. I was like, Well, you know he had that offensive line, and I'm at Smith. That's fine. That's great. Everyone who won a bunch of Super Bowl also had a great team around them. Mahomes and braided in Montana weren't doing it by themselves. But Akemen, you can make a real argument, Akemen is the most accurate passer ever. Akemen was just a real surgeon out there throwing the ball. He was tough as nails. He was the leader on a team that needed a leader, a team that needed somebody to, Hey, man, we got to pull this thing together. I had Akemen at eight.

Let me just I can say this to you real quick about Troy Akeman in support of where you're going here. It's not a small thing that for all the powers that those Dallas Cowboys had on their side offensively, they didn't have a lot of separators. Alvin Harper was that. He was a combat catch guy. And go watch big games and watch Troy Akemen put it on Michael Irvin down. Every time. I mean, 25, 30 yards downfield along the sidelines. Like, that ball is a pick or it's out of bounds or it's uncatchable if 99% of great quarterbacks through it. He had a remarkable ability to throw dimes to Michael Irvin, who, for all his powers, like I said, was not a separator. So go ahead there.

Number nine, I have Steve Young.

I like this one.

Steve Young is the most underrated player, in my opinion, to the Super Bowl here. You name the position. I think he's the most underrated player. The guy won MVPs, won a Super Bowl, ran into the Cowboys. The Cowboys, he easily could have won a couple more. Mobile, he would be great in today's game, even more than he was because it's a mobile. I agree with that. Another guy, super accurate, super tough. I mean, really, in a lot of ways, other than he was much more mobile, it was like Akemen in a lot of ways. It was pinpoint accuracy, tough, would hang in there. Now, listen, he had a great team around him, obviously, just like Akeman did, just like a lot of these guys did. But Young, for me, is not... I I think Steve Young gets so overlooked because he came after Montana and he only won one, and it wasn't two or three. Steve Young was a great, great player.

I am not what I want to be true. I am talking about the reality of Steve Young. He was great, but because he went to the USFL and he went to the Bucaneers, he didn't get good. I think his spiritual, his pigskin doppelganger, Roger Stawback, who had the same thing. He went to the Navy and he was back. It was a backup and all that. So he doesn't get going either. I have them tied behind Matthew Stafford. You know what? I'll put them ahead. That duo goes ahead of Matthew Stafford for me. And I am spicing it up a little bit with Josh Allen because I have to obviously project ahead what's going to be for him. And I don't know that he's ever going to get to a Super Bowl, and that would ding him. But if he gets and plays in one Super Bowl, I think we're going to look back on that guy. And you talk about the era, Steve Young could have won more, if not for the Cowboys and all of that. I mean, Josh Allen is in there with Lamar. You know who he's in the lead with. So the standard is pretty high up there for him.

And I'll throw two more names in there that I have tied side by side. And then there are a couple of other guys I want to ask you about. It's splitting hairs. Terry Bradshaw and Ben Rothsberger. I think you got to put them in there. You go four for four in the Super Bowl as Bradshaw did. I don't care what you want to knock him. He handed the ball off a lot. He also threw a 64-yard game-winning shutdown pass to Lynn Swann, an instant before he got not cold in Super Bowl 10. Then he comes back in Super Bowl 14 and throws a, what was it, a 79-yarder to John Stalmer. Seventy-three. Seventy-three-yarder, forgive me. I should know that, not you. He's the only guy to do that up to a point deep into Super Bowl era history, and he did it twice, throwing deep balls in fourth quarters to win big He was not some passenger along for the ride. Then Rathesberger, talk about the standard. He's in the AFC with Tom Brandy and Peyton Manning, and he goes to three big games.

All those are legitimate. Look, I think you could... For me, for 10, you could talk about Fahv. The only problem I ever had with Fahr, Fahr just made a million mistakes. Fahr went through so many... He was great. I mean, he went three MVPs in a row.

That's why I have to have him in there. That's fair. That's the three straight. He was the dominant figure.

I will be fair. I'd probably put him at 10, but just to be a little, to use your word, if I could speak, to be a little spicy. I'll put Kurt Warner on there.

I have Kurt Warner listed. That was one of the guys I was going to ask you about.

Kurt Warner, another guy, delayed, right? I mean, packers, he gets caught, and he's an Iowa bar and so on and all this crap. That guy was as good as anybody for a period of time. And I think it matters. He went to three Super Bowl's with the Rams and the Cardinals. The Rams were a tire fire. People forget how atrocious the Rams were in the '90s. They were the bangles in the NFC. He gets there and they win a Super Bowl. He was, along with Faulk, the reason why they won a Super Bowl. They went back two years later. He was the MVP again. Then he goes to the Cardinals and everybody's like, Oh, his career's over. He took them to the Super Bowl and had them in a position to win the game.

If the all-time play in Super Bowl history in my book, the State Antonio catch, doesn't happen, the 9 and Even Arizona Cardinals win Super Bowl 43 because he pulled it out with Larry Fitzgerald against the best defense.

To me, Warner gets... Water, he's got a weird career because the middle of it, it's almost like a donut. The middle of it's nothing. But he was spectacular with the Rams, and he was great with the cart. It's the fact that he took those teams there.

I've got him a tick ahead of it. The name we didn't mention that I think people get raw about is Drew Brees. But if you're talking about circumstantial QBs, doing it in a dome and all of that, I think Drew Brees benefit him.

He drew a million times. He was a great player. He was wrong. But yeah, his numbers are a little inflated because Sean Payton- At seven and nine, three straight years.

That's bad.

He's a little bit Dan Foutsish. Where you're like, Yeah, great numbers, great player, Hall of Fame, all that, deserve it. But not quite, to me, the other guys we talked about.

Yeah, not Especially rugged, obviously. The other guy we should chat out since you did Fouts, I'll say, Warren Moon should be involved in these conversations. Tremendous player. Another late start guy. All right, listen, we're late in getting you out of here. I could do this for another four and a half hours. Whenever you We're going to sit here and just chop up. Let's circle back.

We'll do top 10 list. We'll do top 10 list. We'll do top 10 list. We'll do the head of us.

Oh, yeah. We could go over this a million different ways. In the meantime, Matt Verderam, as good as it gets, if you love pro football, make sure Matt Verderam is a part of your life and your football watching and schedule. Until next time, Pally.

Take care.

All right, there he goes, Verderam. Your thoughts, Gino and Ethan, Ethan and Gino, how say you? A lot of information there.

I didn't remember the 1989 49ers because my intro to football really started around the Dallas Cowboys, those 92, 93 teams. I went back and started googling and Wikipediaing while you guys were talking about it, and man, they were fucking good. They destroyed people in that playoff run. 55-10 was the Super Bowl, but they beat someone 30 to three. I think they beat someone.

They beat the Rams who had, if I remember correctly, had 11 wins that year. They were not jive. It was Montana versus Jim Everett. Otherwise, the rosters side by side were pretty comparable. And they also whipped the Vikings, who were real good that year, too. And by the way, Verderam mentioned that the Chiefs almost, or you actually mentioned that, Gino, that that the Chiefs would have three-peated, which would put them on a different plateau, a different plane in Super Bowl era history. But that was also true of the 1990 Broncos. Montana gets knocked out late in the stick, and the Giants then go on to the Super Bowl, and Scott Norwood happens, and all the rest of it. But the Niners very likely would have won. I mean, the Bills were a real good team, too. But I think the Niners win that Super Bowl, and they would have been the 3P team. Then I don't think the Niners could trade. At that point, I don't think they could have traded Joe Montana if they'd won three Super Bowl during his time there. Anyway, Ethan, what stood out to you?

Yeah, the concept of trading Joe Montana is just so insane to me. Just like trading Wayne Gretsky or trading God for If the Patriots had traded Tom braided. I mean, look, when you talk quarterbacks, in my lifetime, my lifetime is basically Tom braided. I was born in '99. Braided took over in 2000. So growing up, it was always braided, braided, braided, just being the most dominant guy. Me being a Dolphin fan, I always hated him, and I was always the guy that would say, Rogers is better, Rogers is better. It was me and Dan. It's the Michael Jordan. One of the reasons I loved the show so much growing up is because Dan was the only guy that was out there saying, Rogers is better than braided talent-wise. But obviously, when he wins seven Super Bowl, there's not really much you can say, Dave. There's not really much you can say.

You have grown up. You've spent all your time on the Big Blue Marble as a Dolphins fan, you've never seen Dan Moreno play.

I have watched Dan Moreno highlights, and let me tell you something, I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like that. There's one game that stands out to me. It's the game, his first game back after the Achilles injury. Against the Patriots. Against the Patriots in the mud. The Marlins had just moved in to... If you're a dork. Yeah, go ahead, Dave.

I think there are a lot of people who talk about how great Moreno was and where he belongs in history. That is an important note you just dropped there, Ethan. I think it's year four, five, somewhere around there of his career. He could run. He wasn't Michael Vick, but he could take off and burn you until he had the Achilles injury. After that, the next time you see him and for the rest of his career, he's fat. He has those big hip pads, and he's got those big childbearing hips.

Dave, he threw five breakdown passes in that game.

That game was intense.

Each one of them has more of a laser than the last one.

It's just on a freaking rope.

That was against Joe Bledso, right?

It must have-Yeah, it was against him. I want to say it was 94, so it must have been Bledso, yeah. But him just ripping these in there. And so, yeah, I'm not sure I've ever seen in my lifetime a passer quite like Moreno, but I think when all is said and done, Mahomes, he's not going to stop winning anytime soon. I'm sure they're probably just going to win again next year.

We already stopped winning. He stopped winning this- I know people get Cavalier. Well, right. The people get Cavalier about like, he'll get his. Will he Definitely.

I don't know. I think he'll be back. It would not surprise me at all if he's healthy by midseason this year, back to 100 %, and they just take off, pick up right where they left off two years ago.

Okay. So do you just project ahead 8, 10 years for us? Is Mahomes the greatest quarterback of all time?

I would say so. I think once he wins one or two more, people will start putting him in because he's so much... He's so clearly... Maybe not so clearly, but I think people recognize he's more talented than braided in terms of an athlete and a passer, that once he gets close to him in terms of the amount of Super Bowl, I think... People already say that Jordan is better than... I think- Or LeBron is better than Jordan. He's got two less rings or whatever. I know.

But I think if we get in that territory- That's because people want to witness it and they want to support their area.

And they want to say they saw the greatest 100 %.

I think what finally did it with braided for me was when he won that Tampa Bay Super Bowl, I was like, I can't deny this. Undeniable. Yeah, at this point, you'd be stupid to argue against it.

That team was also so good. We didn't realize how good that team was until they won. And you were like, oh, my God. Kind of like the Seahawks team. You didn't realize until they won. That was the best team in the NFL all season long. Dominant, great roster, top to bottom.

I lost the thread there towards the end about where I have Stafford. I guess I have Stafford still behind the tied group of young and Stawback is, I think I have them nine, and then Rothsberger, Bradshaw, 10, and then that kick Stafford. Right on the cusp, though, not as far out as a lot of people had. Is there any current player, QB, that I didn't mention? I said Josh Allen, Werther. I'm just going to dismiss that. Lamar, Burrow, Herbert?

Yeah, I don't think Burrow and Herbert will end up in that range. But Lamar is so transcendent in terms of his skillset.

You've seen the best of him, though. I agree with that. I think Lamar, I don't think he's ever going to use his legs the way he used to.

I don't know that he'll ever win the Super Bowl. To get up into that echelon.

Well, same goes for Allen, and that's exactly right. I think that it is going to be... Lamar is a spectacular, as I said at the very top of the show, what the hell are we looking at? How are you ever going to play traditional football again after you see that is available to you in football? I think we've seen that from Lamar now, and I don't know how much more we're going to see of it, especially given the injuries.

I'm not saying he's going to be horrible.

It keeps happening.

It keeps getting hurt. I'm not saying he's going to be horrible.

I hear he's just going to have to- He's just going to have to change his game.

He's just going to have to change his game.

That's right. I think that's what you're going to need from him if you want to succeed. You're going to have to say, Lamar, take the foot off the gas here in there. All right, good talk. Now let's talk about another guy who I think still counts as active, at least that's the word on the street, is that he's going to come back for yet another season to the Pittsburgh Steelers. I'm talking about Aaron Rodgers, of course, a guy who used to play quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers, is a guy, Chaz Batch, who has some thoughts about Aaron Rodgers and beyond, one of the great human beings out there. Here he is. My conversation from Media Row last week at the Super Bowl with our pal Chaz Batch. Look who we have here. He is… By the way, before I introduce you, you know what I would love to do? I know this is a big ask, but can you pull some strings for old Dave here? Me, Chaz Batch, Bob Pompiani, three-man booth in August for the Steelers preseason game. That's what I'm talking about.

Even though I don't have final decision, I like where you're going with that thought.

Look, yoi in double, yoi. The terrible towel poised to strike, and so are the Steelers. Look, Cope Jr, right?

Hey, that's it. I'll leave that to you. We'll add a little other twist to it. I look forward to that. That's a nice idea.

Chaz Batch, I don't like to do it because I think, sincerely, you get a little embarrassed when people point this out about you. But you are one of the great human beings to ever be a part of the NFL or be in public life for all you do, for all the kids in Pittsburgh and otherwise, man, what a meant you are.

I appreciate you. Thank you very much. And it's exciting. We're the Best of the Batch Foundation. We now have celebrated 26 years of being around. We're an educational foundation, and we actually serve over 3,800 kids in nine counties throughout Southwestern PA. We're an educational-based foundation. We focus on our steam program. We say steam instead of stem because we include the A for art. Super excited about it. And we just went from 5,300 square feet to 33,000 square feet. So when you come back home, you got to come to our tour to see everything that we're doing and figure out ways that we can collaborate. But if anybody wants to learn what we do, they can go to batchfoundation. Org.

Love it. Congratulations on that and continued success. I really did maybe a decade or so ago when I first got wind of what you were doing in front of Christmas time and going around with a big truck and trying to ask sporting goods companies, can they spare basketball or anything else? I said to the bosses at NFL Network, I'd like to go and cover this. I looked into it and was told, Oh, no, Charlie doesn't like cameras following him around when he does that. He's not doing it for attention.

The reason why we didn't follow on delivery day, because the one thing we do is collect the toys, we wrap, and then deliver on Christmas Eve. The one thing we don't want to do is be intrusive on the families with cameras showing them. We're not publishing a clearing house. Like, Hey, here you go. We try to be respectful that way. But that process, ultimately, is something that we share, is because this year, as we celebrated 20 years of that batch of toys, is what we call it, we impacted 411 families. It was 1811 kids to be able to now wrap presents for. To make that program work, it took over 17 1,500 volunteers to make that happen. So when you see all of the support, you are truly humbled and grateful for all the support that we truly receive, and we wouldn't be able to do it without the help of others.

Man, oh, man. Look at you. Look at what you did. Look at what you built. Good for you. I just talked to Matt Hasselbeck. Now I ask you, whose career would you rather have had? Eli Mannings or Tom... I'm sorry. Let me do that again. Whose career would you rather have had? Dan Marino's or Eli Mannings?

Oh, man. For me, I'm going to be biased because I'm a huge Dan Marino fan, and he was a guy that I followed, that I wanted to be as a kid growing up. I understand the Super Bowl and those type of things, but man, I'm biased Dan Marino.

All right, you're a front runner then. I mean, I get it. He was pretty good. Let's talk about another one of the all-time great quarterbacks, Aaron Rodgers. Do you like the idea of 43-year-old Rodgers as QB1 for Mike McCarthy and Company?

I like the idea. Number one, last year, I didn't think he had a bad season. I know there was 27 touch downs, maybe seven or eight interceptions. But now, as we fast forward, he did that with limited help on the offensive side of the ball. But now being able to add those pieces, you're bringing an offense that he's very familiar with, that he spent 18 years with. What better way for him to come in and help the young guy, Will Howard, is that guy? What better way for him to now follow and emulate what somebody in that system is doing? I just want to see the transition happen the way that Brett Favre did to Aaron Rodgers, Aaron did that to Jordan Love. Now, can Aaron do that with Will Howard?

Wait, there is a lot of buzz on the banks of the Three Rivers about sixth-round pick Will Howard. You think that he really could ascend to being a viable option, a QB1 in the NFL?

Well, Well, right now, the grade is incomplete. I'm not sitting here saying this guy going to be a Hall of Famer. What I'm saying is based on what I saw in practice, I think he can. Those are the intangibles. The problem is he got hurt at the wrong time right before the preseason game, so we don't have a chance to evaluate him during those three games. Obviously, the Steelers have seen enough of him, number one, to draft him in the sixth round. Obviously, what they saw the second half of the season in practice to say that they're now willing to now make that move. You had an offensive mind like Mike McCarthy, and now you implement that. Then what It's a better way for Mike to help set him up, possibly for the quarterback of the future as that franchise quarterback. I'm saying it's a long way of saying it's incomplete. I don't know, but there is a strong possibility that things could be better than it is now.

Well, I don't want to push back too hard on you and be glass half empty. The thing I didn't love about Roger's past season was any team with a pass rush, he clearly was getting rid of the ball. He was prioritizing that. Which, by the way, when you're in your 40s, you understand your mortality better than when you're 22, and I assume that's what it has a lot to do with. I think you make the glass half full argument that there is a lot of loot now and draft picks and otherwise to try and build up that offense a bit. Is that the trick?

Yes, build up the offense, and you can do that with the six rounder because you still have him under a rookie contract. What I'm looking at in this particular perspective, trying to judge Aaron out of the last system that he was in versus one that he won four MVPs with. I'll take the ladder on that.

There he is, everybody. Chaz Batch, one of the guys, one of the great guys in pro football and otherwise. Congratulations, Pittsburgh. He's all yours. Chaz Batch, legitimately one of the great guys in pro football that I've met, not just in pro football. In fact, a great human being, as I say. All right, there he goes. Here we go to Out the Door, and we will not be back for the first time in what? Twenty-something week, something like that. We will not be with you on Monday because there is no football weekend to react to. We will be back on Friday. Be on the look out for me on the Dan Lebitard show as well. We'll continue to try and get as much football content in front of you throughout the springtime. We'll continue to buzz about the draft and free agency and all the rest of it. And for now, for Gino and Sup Campbell and Ethan Badowski, thanks to you for filling in. Good luck watching the Olympic hockey there. We'll talk to you next week. Until then, my fellow football Americans, thanks so much. It's been a thin slice to heaven.