Transcript of TRADEMARK ATTORNEY ON HOW ENTREPRENEURS CAN PROTECT THEIR BRAND || ROSEZENA. J PIERCE || EPISODE 091 New

A trademark is a form of intellectual property, and a lot of people get it confused because there are 4 different types of form of intellectual property. So you have a copyright, which is a creative expression. Then you also have a patent, which protects your invention. So if you invent something new and novel or that's useful. And then you have trade secret. Trade secrets is the only form of intellectual property you would not file with the government because it's supposed to be a secret, and you got to take reasonable measures to protect that secret. Meet

Rosina. Pierce, known as the biz lawyer, entrepreneur, speaker, and founder of RJ Pierce Law Group. With more than 15 years of experience in intellectual property law, Rosina helps entrepreneurs, creators, and business owners protect their trademarks, defend their brand identity, and secure the value of what they've built. From trademark registration to brand protection, she empowers businesses to build with confidence and protect their legacy.

Trademark actually comes in different forms. So one, it could be your name if you're using your name in the marketplace. Also, you can trademark your business name. Your podcast name can be a trademark as well. A slogan like Just Do It, that's a trademark. I own Secure the Brand. Logos, so like the swoosh symbol. Fourth one is the sound. Reason why that's important, especially right now, because a lot of entertainers, singers, and actors are trademarking their voice. because of AI, and they're trying to protect their likeness around it.

What should an entrepreneur focus on?

Entrepreneur who logo—

what's the process in terms of trademarking locally within the state, federally within the country, and internationally as well?

For states, their process can be different, right? It depends because states, you know, have the right to make their own rules, and you are protected under the state. But now that we are in a technology age, we're in a digital age, we have social media. If your business is on social media, you probably need a federal trademark.

The Code to Winning Insights You Need Today to Seize the World Tomorrow. We have an amazing guest. If you are curious in learning about trademarking your business, this is the episode for you. In fact, if you're curious about learning about trademark and business law, all those topics, this is the episode for you. I have a special guest. I'm going to give you a brief introduction. of who we have in the studio today. Rich story, actually. Growing up on Chicago's West Side, her father was a law clerk. She knew at the age of 5 she wanted to become a lawyer. She passed the bar exam on her first try. A professor actually convinced her to start her own firm to serve the underserved. She filed over 6,000 trademarks ranked number 8 out of 33,000 trademark attorneys in the United States, built a 7-figure minority-run law firm, a single mother of 3, former licensed cosmetologist, and has worked with celebrities including Angela Simmons, Twista, and Sierra Gates. Without further ado, the amazing lady in the studio, we'd like to welcome Rosina Trademarking has been a very big, important part of people's businesses as well. And again, I've met a few people that you and I discussed before the interview that have utilized your services as well.

When did this journey begin for you?

Well, it actually began, like you said, since I was 5, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer, right? So when they ask kids, what do you want to be when you grow up? My answer was always lawyer. Um, going through high school, I always used to say international law, international business law. Didn't really know what it was, but I knew I wanted to travel and I wanted to do something more corporate level. Mm-hmm. I remember I went to a vocational high school and my major was cosmetology, um, but we had a Groundhog Day and I told my cosmetology teacher that I wanted to be a lawyer. So one of her friends was a lawyer downtown Chicago. So she sent me to shadow him. And I remember he was a general practitioner. And at the time, this was a while ago, he's like, excuse me one second, as we were in our meeting. And he was like, and he got on the phone. He's like, okay, okay, it's okay. Okay, okay, don't worry about it. I'm gonna take care of it. And he hung up and he was like, never practice divorce law. That was just about the day on VCR.

And I was like, noted. And so from there, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna do business. Law. I want to be strictly business. And then going to undergrad is when I was really introduced to intellectual property. So I majored in paralegal studies for my bachelor's degree, and I took a class, Intellectual Property for Paralegals, and that's when I fell in love with trademarks, copyright. So it started way before law school, was more so undergrad. And then once I went to— and actually, that professor, she was a trademark attorney. And she was like, you need to go to law school, and I'm gonna write you a letter of recommendation. Then I go to law school. From there, I knew I wanted to be a trademark attorney. So going to law school, I took all my required classes, but all of my electives were all surrounded around trademark law, copyright law, intellectual property.

Oh, wow. And what actually made you curious to try and pursue those specific as well?

Well, as a girl, I like to shop, right? And I like to just— I was curious about how things were advertised to us. And I like to— I was like, I would love to be a part of that brand. And, you know, in my young mind, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. So I was like, how can I merge the two? I remember, so 5 years old, when my dad was taking me around the lawyers and the law offices and things, My godfather, he was a lawyer, but his wife was a buyer at Marshall Field's, right? So Marshall Field's was like, it was our Macy's before Macy's bought Marshall Field's in Chicago. And she was a buyer and he was a lawyer. So I was like, how can I merge the two? And so for me, I was like, I would love to work with brands and be able to see them in a public light and know that I had a hand in it. And so that's where trademark law came

in. One of the, um, there's a lady that I, I follow on social media, and I've been following a lot of her, um, podcasting and everything she stands for in terms of brand building. She said one of the first things she did when she started blowing up and decided to actually make a business out of like her brand was that the first thing she did was before even hiring an accountant was hiring a business lawyer. She says it's the one of the biggest things that happened for her that actually improved the day-to-day aspect of things as well.

Yeah.

Did you always have envisioned when you were like in, in law school that you would end up taking this direction to become like trademark? I know you mentioned a bit with like your background as well. What really pushed you more towards actually like going for this specific field?

Well, like, I just had my mind made up. And so I, when in law school, I thought I was going to work for a big corporation. Yes. I had to work for a big corporation or I had to work for a really large law firm in order to integrate my career into that field. And so, you know, I made sure that I got all good grades, like in all my intellectual property classes, I got straight A's, you know, and made sure— I knew I had to just get good grades, keep my GPA high. And then I even did internships. I interned for one attorney who was a trademark attorney, and— but I knew I wanted to work at a big corporate law firm or have a corporate in-house counsel job. And what ended up happening, finishing law school, I had my daughter my last semester. My son was 11, my middle child, she was 7, and then I just had this infant. She was 3 months old. And by that time I had applied to over like 140 jobs and couldn't get an interview at all. Right. No interview at all. So at that point I'm like, okay, let me take the bar.

Take the bar. Actually passed the first time.

I heard that.

Yeah. With my 5-month— now she's at this time, she's 5 months. Cause I started studying. She was born September 11th. Um, we started studying for the bar seriously the day after Christmas. And we took the bar February, because I was like a spring class is what they call it. So I found out I passed April 1st. I thought it was an April Fool's joke, but thank God I passed. I remember walking out the bar saying like, I never want to do that again. And I was like, I think, I hope I passed. So when I found out I passed, passed. Now I'm licensed in Illinois. So before you get your law license, you have to take a professional responsibility class before you're sworn in to get the license. Mm-hmm. And, um, I had never had this professor before. And on break, you know, I was kind of complaining to him. And you got to remember, I finished law school in 2013. So this is when everybody was going back to school because the real estate crash had just happened, right? Exactly, yeah. And so the job market wasn't the best, but I'm like, well, I got great grades.

I'm on law review for intellectual property. I got an internship. So I have some— And I can't get an interview. And he was like, you know, you really have to just know that you will be okay because you will go a long way serving the underserved. And I was like, I don't want to do criminal law. I want to do family law, being naive. But he was like, no, who's underserved in the practice area you want to practice in? And I thought about it for a minute because at this time, like, Instagram was probably just coming around. Oh yeah. Facebook was really new. You know, so it wasn't a lot of entrepreneurs around me or in the city of Chicago at that time. But I was like, maybe small business owners? And he was like, you'll go a long way serving them. And I'm not going to lie, that was not the day I was convinced I was going to be an entrepreneur, but that quote just stuck with me for the longest. And after continuously trying to apply for more jobs, even to the point of applying for paralegal jobs because I couldn't get a job as a lawyer.

Even after getting your law degree?

Yes. And then I was getting the email, oh, you're overqualified, that type of thing. And it probably was like maybe like a year out of law school, I was like, you know what, I'm just going to really take— no, I was a contract— I took contract jobs. So contract attorney jobs is like being temp and you're getting paid like $20 an hour or $28 an hour. So now I'm going downtown working these temp jobs as a lawyer doing doc review. Wow. And, um, I pick up a book and I start to read this book. Because I was like, you know what, this can't be the life. Like, I went to law school. Now granted, $28 an hour, this is the most that I, I'm making ever in my life. Mm-hmm. But I'm like, this is not going to get me off the West Side of Chicago or get my kids, you know, um, into a better living environment. Like, this can't be it. And I was like, you know what? Whatever I got to do, I just want to be a millionaire. And so I like went on Amazon and just like searched like how to be a millionaire fast.

And this book came up, The Fastlane Millionaire. And that book, you know, looking back, it was so special to me. One, it was special because, um, I didn't know, just I, I seen Fastlane Millionaire, I'm like, okay, it sounds like he's talking about some good, had good reviews. Mm-hmm. And once I got the book, I used to read it on the train. But this book was written by someone who was from Chicago. I didn't even know that. In fact, his name is MJ DeMarco. He's from Chicago, and he actually was the founder of limos.com. Interesting. And he moved to Arizona, and he talked about how he had seasonal depression. And, and the book is so good, and it just really kind of like shift— because I still wanted a job at that time, but it kind of shift my whole mindset. And he was like, look, if you're going to be a millionaire, you're going to be fast. You got to be an entrepreneur. And so that's kind of how the entrepreneurial journey started from there.

That's amazing. It's amazing. I know, um, I mean, I've been in the US for, uh, 12, 13 years this year. Um, when I look at law in the US, when you pass a part— when you pass a bar exam, it is only for that specific state. Can you walk us through, like, when you transfer over to, like, the state of Georgia, did you have to, like, do another exam before that, or You know what's

so crazy? When I moved to Georgia, and I was just figuring I can wait because they have law reciprocity. So Illinois and Georgia have reciprocity. So I moved to Georgia, but I did not know the rule is you have to live 5 years outside of the jurisdiction before you can waive into that state. And I was 4 years and 9 months.

Oh, you gotta be kidding me.

Yes. But You know what, it was okay because at that time I moved here July 2017, um, and I had cases in Illinois still. I was flying back and forth from Georgia with going to cases, um, back home still. I didn't charge my clients anymore because I felt like it's not their fault I left and moved to Georgia. Um, but what ended up happening was, um, I actually had an epiphany moment where I was like, okay, if I'm going to make $1 million, I have to niche down my practice. Mm-hmm. And I think it was like in 2018, at the end of 2018, I was burnt out. I was tired because I was hustling and I was doing all these different things. I was doing, um, business law, contract law. I was doing trademark law. I was doing real estate. I had an estates and trusts case, all of that. And so I, God told me, he was like, you just need to niche down and do trademarks. And it was kind of like the vision where, like, you see that picture where he has, like, the big teddy bear, but it's behind his back.

Yes. And he's trying to get the girls to give up the little teddy bear.

Exactly.

And the great thing about what I do now is because trademark law is federal, I can practice because I'm practicing under the federal law, and I can represent anyone across the country, but not only across the country, but across the world. So, and when I— and I was scared because I was like, okay, but if I niche down and I cut out all these things, I'm gonna cut out that money. But what I didn't realize was, um, so 2019, I decided January 2019, I'm only gonna do trademarks. I'm gonna close up all my other files. I'm only gonna do trademarks. And, and I hired a coach and she confirmed for me, Rachel Rogers confirmed for me, I needed to niche down. I think like 2019, we went to her house in South Carolina when she was living there. And she showed like a graph of like all the things she was doing and how she wasn't making no money. But when she niched down to that one thing, and it was just like, okay, I'm doing this right. And then I did trademarks. And then I will tell you, I doubled my revenue by the end of that year.

Wow.

And then by 2020, um, while the pandemic was happening, because then 2020 comes and I'm like, okay, it's March and revenue's still looking the same. And now they just closing everything down, including Disney World. So how this gonna happen? And almost before I could freak out, I heard God say, just continue to do what I told you to do.

That's so powerful.

And by August 2020, I hit my first million in the business.

Wow, absolutely amazing. And I think that's the beauty of the journey of being an entrepreneur, is the fact that it involves you taking a risk sometimes. But some, you know, people are afraid to take that leap of faith because you're getting out your comfort zone. And, um, that whole teddy bear analogy is very beautiful. I actually saw that, I think, last week sometime, because sometimes we want to hang on to something that we are acquainted or well acquainted with, that we know very well, not knowing that God has a better plan for us which is beyond our comfort zone as well. So thanks for sharing that beautiful testimony. Thank you. Which leads to this, uh, question right now. If you could walk us through what a trademark actually is, you know, let's walk through that before Figure out, like, how people can, like, utilize a trademark, um, business, like, advice as well.

Yeah. So a trademark is a form of intellectual property, and a lot of people get it confused because there are 4 different types of form of intellectual property. So you have a copyright, which is a creative expression fixed into a tangible medium. So that's where you will protect, like, your books, your poems, your photographs, things like that. But then you also have a patent, which protects your inventions. So if you invent something new and novel, or that's useful, that is what's covered by a patent that you will apply to the government for. And then you have trade secrets, right? So trade secrets is the only form of intellectual property you would not file with the government because it's supposed to be a secret, and you got to take reasonable measures to protect that secret. But a trademark actually is a symbol. source identifier for consumers to relate back to where a product or service come from. Mm-hmm. So a trademark actually comes in 4 different forms. So one, it could be your name. It could be your name if you're using your name in the marketplace or attached to products or services. Mm-hmm. So think Martha Stewart, Beyoncé, Meek Mill.

They all have their name trademark, right? Okay. Um, but then also you can trademark your business name. So like Nike, right? Your podcast name can be a trademark as well. Um, and then a slogan like Just Do It, that's a trademark. Um, I own Secure the Brand, right? So because you need to secure the brand. And then, um, also too, what people— their logos. So logos, so like the swoosh symbol, right? I have a logo trademark. Um, now there is a technicality with logos that I think entrepreneurs should know, especially your audience if they're Um, having businesses and things like that. Now, copyrights are created from the creator who birthed the copyright. So if you go hire a graphic designer to do your copyright, you pay them and you tell them how you want it done. Do instantly you think you own that?

If I can repeat the question again.

So you paid them, you told them how you wanted to design it, but do you think you own that?

Naturally, people think that, and I would think that as well, because like they did it for me, so now it's under my name as well.

Exactly. But no, that's not the case. Under the law, it says whoever birthed the creation is the actual owner. So that's why it's important for business owners as we pay our graphic designers and we pay people to create copyrighted works.

So they own it.

They own it, but you can have those rights transferred to you in writing through a work-for-hire agreement or a transfer clause, but it has to be in writing because if you don't get those rights transferred to you, copyrights last 70 years plus the life of the author, which means it survives them in death. So if your best friend created your logo for you and said, you know, you could do whatever you need to do with it, and God forbid they die and they get a clever estate attorney, right, that wants to collect royalties to fund their estate, they can make you pay royalties on your logo because you never really owned it, the creator did.

That's wild.

Yeah, and that's what— and a lot of people don't know that, right? So you can trademark your logo, But also I tell people, just make sure you own all your assets in full. So think about Disney. When they have people creating animations and all these amazing things, they have them on a work-for-hire agreement, whether they're employees or, or independent contractors, because you want to own the asset. So I know you asked me about trademarks, but I like to throw that in there.

No, it's perfect because I had a follow-up question to what the difference is between a trademark logo and a trademark name, and what should a business do first? Mm-hmm.

So, and I didn't mention the 4th one, which is the sound. Okay. The 4th one is the sound. Reason why that's important, especially right now, because a lot of entertainers, singers, and actors are trademarking their voice because of AI and the things that's going on, and they're trying to protect their likeness around it. But what I tell people too, if you're— and that's a whole nother story— if you're using AI to create your logos and things like that, understand that our law, right, in the US says that the human— in order for it to be registered as a copyright, it has to derive from the human mind, which means, um, if you got your logo from AI, there's no protection over that, right? And most of the, the terms and conditions in, you know, those AI providers, they tell you, you know, you may not have exclusive rights to to this because it created it for you. It may be creating it for someone else. So that's why it's important to still have final human touch so you can have those rights transferred to you as well. But, um, going back to the sound, because people are trying to protect their likeness, I also encourage entrepreneurs just to be careful if you are creating your websites with AI and you're including images of people, right?

And AI is pulling from all data points. Like, how would you feel walking through Times Square and you see a photo of yourself attached to a Gap ad?

Like, why are they utilizing my image to try and make money out of that? Naturally, it'd be like, yeah, you'd feel some kind of way.

You would want to be paid for it, right? It's a violation of your right of publicity, right? And so you will want to get paid, or you at least need to. So as entrepreneurs, we got to be careful when we're creating these different assets with AI because there can still be legal ramifications for it. Which is why celebrities and entrepreneurs, I mean, you know, celebrities and actors and actresses and rappers and things like that, they're trying to protect their voice in case AI creates sound and music with their voices as well.

Very fascinating. Which, can we go again to that question when I asked, like, what should an entrepreneur focus on doing first, if we can find out the difference between Obviously the trademark logo and then the trademark name.

Yeah. So I would say it depends, right? The law is not a one-size-fits-all garment, right? And so if you have an entrepreneur whose logo is more visible and has more brand recognition, that might want to be prioritized over the name. Like for instance, my business name is RJ Pierce Law Group. A lot of people don't even know my business name when they become my client. They know me as the Biz Lawyer. They know Secure the Brand. right? And they may see my logo, right? So for me, my name as RJ Pierce Law Group may not be as important, but someone like a Nike, right, they want to protect that name because it's very distinctive, and they also want to protect that swoosh symbol. And it's also important because a lot of entrepreneurs, to save money, they'll try to put them together and merge them together. And I would tell them, depending on If your brand is distinctive, right, and if your logo is distinctive, you probably want to own them separately. Mm-hmm. Because typically, we're protecting our intellectual property, one, so nobody can tell us we can't use it, but two, in case someone else uses it and infringes on it, we have the legal rights.

And sometimes people don't just— they won't use your name, but they may use your logo and your slogan together, right? So you want to own them separately, independently on their own, in case people infringe on different elements of your business.

Lovely, lovely. Matter of fact, I met one client, um, that was utilizing your service. I've given you like 4 or 5 names. I forgot another one I'll tell you about because almost everyone I know uses you. But, um, I want to try and figure out to what extent is trademark law applicable in an international basis. The reason I'm asking that, um, There's a gentleman in Australia. I heard this from my best friend who was there as well, and he lived there a while. There was a gentleman there who actually had the name Burger King before Burger King ended up going to Australia. Burger King being an American franchise as well. However, when I ask this question is the mere fact that when he was there and Burger King ended up going there, he had already trademarked Burger King. So they could not end up selling him out or like buying the name or, or like, you know, removing that because they're trademarked within the jurisdiction of Australia. And so when you go to Australia, should you guys pay a visit there, it's actually called Hungry Jack's. Everything's the exact same. There's Whopper, there's everything, but instead of it being called Burger King, it's actually called Hungry Jack's.

So a small guy with one, one like a restaurant or like a fast food place not even franchised out, has the right to Burger King in the jurisdiction of Australia. Which shows you that even if you're small, you can go up against corporation if you have the trademark. So that's a testament of that, which led me to the client that I met. He was interviewing me on his— I hope he's okay with this— In-N-Out podcast.

Okay, yeah.

And he was telling me he was working with you. In a situation such as that, how, how applicable is trademark? Because it's not necessarily the franchise that is currently like in the west side of the United States, but he's got a similar name. How does that work? If you don't mind, like, elaborating on that.

So, I won't speak on clients' business because that is confidential, but I will tell you as it relates, if you are a brand owner and you plan on expanding to international territories, you want to protect in those territories as well. Now, a lot of times, as small business owners, people don't know that they want to expand. But funny story about Burger King, because I'm from Illinois, there actually was a small mom-and-pop restaurant back in like the 1950s. Mm-hmm. And they were the first Burger King. And then the Florida Burger King, which is the giant corporation that we see around, they actually came up, but they filed for federal registration. The Illinois restaurant only had state registration, which is why, like, it's so important now, because back then you had to show you had interstate commerce, right, is what they call it, right, where you were doing business in multiple states in order to qualify for registry. But now today, because we have the internet, if you have a business, it's a website, that interstate commerce is met, right? Mm-hmm. But back then, The Illinois state Burger King, they are out of Mattoon, Illinois, and there was some agreement that the Florida Burger King will never come into the state of Illinois.

Well, we all know money talk and BS walk, and so eventually they did expand into that territory as they were expanding across the country. And the Mattoon, Illinois Burger King actually filed a declaratory judgment in the state of Illinois in federal court to kick the Florida Burger King out. And the court asked the mom-and-pop, the Mattoon, Illinois, how far do their customers come? And they said, well, about— I think it was about a 20-mile radius, they said, because they were right off Highway 57, which is a major interstate. And the court said, okay, well, you, Burger King, can't come within a 20-mile radius of their restaurant. But now, you, Mattoon, Illinois, can't go outside of a 20-mile radius of your restaurant. And that was back in the 1950s, okay? And if you look up and Google the original Burger King, Mattoon, Illinois, um, the family like recently sold back in 2015, but that restaurant is still open today. Indeed. And so that's why it's so important as businesses that we don't allow, um, anybody else to limit our legacy, right? Because imagine what that business could have been. And going to inter— um, international jurisdictions, right?

Uh-huh. It's kind of the same thing. like what happened in Australia for corporate Burger King, they're now limited. They can't, you know, capitalize in that market if that's what you're telling me, right? But there was another case with Supreme, you know, the, the, the, um, company Supreme, right?

With the shirts and like with the red and black and all that.

Yes, yes. And they were based— they're based out of New York. Now I think the difference with, um, Supreme, and I don't know the Australia case, um, too well, but if they were like copying Burger King's branding, even in the States. I think Australia should have dealt with that better, but I'm not familiar with that case. But with Supreme, um, there was some other company in Italy and they adopted the same brand. They, they filed for registration. They even found— they had a store in a mall in Italy and all type of things. And Supreme US went and fought them in the Italian courts, and the Italian courts actually agreed with New York Supreme. That's wild. That because they knew that they were trading off of their goodwill. So in certain— but internet, like every territory is different. They have their own laws. So you have, like, even when my clients are seeking international registration, we can go through the Madrid Protocol, which is a treaty that certain nations have with each other. But I prefer instead to hire local counsel in those regions because they know the law, right? And UK law is different from how China process applications.

From how India, how we process them here, how Canada process them. So everything is different. And also too, we do— I always ask people, will you build a house on land you don't own? Would you? No. Right? So then I say, so why do we build these businesses and these brands if we don't own them, right? It's essentially the same when you're building a business and you don't own the name. Well, first and foremost, before we even file the trademark, we're going to do the research Because before you go buy the land, you're going to do a title search, right? Exactly. And so, you know, we have to do clearance search, but also too, if you're thinking about operating in those different regions, you have to do the research first in those regions because under trademark law, it's also not what's the same, but what can be deemed confusingly similar. So you may have a brand operating in the US. Someone may not have your exact name in a different territory, but if they deem it confusingly similar in their jurisdiction, You can be denied just simply for that. So, that's why the research is always important, too.

Interesting. And then what's the process between— I'm glad you mentioned that Burger King example, because now, now we have the same exact name in 2 different states and also 2 different countries. What's the process in terms of trademarking, like, locally within the state, federally within the country, and internationally as well? Is it all similar process or? Obviously, you said you'd advise to do the local councilman. So let's stick rather with the local and federally for now.

So for states, their process can be different, right? It depends because states, you know, have the right to make their own rules and you are protected under the state. But now that we are in a technology age, we're in a digital age, we have social media. If your business is on social media, you probably need a federal trademark, right? Because you know, if you're in, let's say, Georgia, and someone is infringing off your brand, and you're getting calls at your business, and they're complaining about somebody, but they're in Florida, right, you want to be able to stop that. So that's why federal protection, I think, is better. It gives you more reach across, you know, state lines and things like that. Mm-hmm. But, you know, depends. Again, depends. state institution brand or maybe a state association, right? Like, so if you're like the Illinois Association of Real Estate Agents, right, maybe then you will protect your brand in Illinois because you are particularly in the state of Illinois. But I have seen state associations also protect themselves on a federal level as well, just so they won't be confused with other states and things like that.

That's perfect. powerful. I know this is actually personally for me. I have multiple different websites. I have for my marriage, I have for my podcast, I have for the studio when people want to rent out. I have multiple different stuff, but nothing is trademarked. It's just like I have a GoDaddy account for like 5 years or like maybe for 10 years, whatever it may be. Question, it's actually 2 questions for that. I'm tired of like doing these like 10-year or 5-year plans with GoDaddy. Is there a way I could ever like just trademark like a URL forever?

I mean, you could trademark it and you could own the trademark, but you still need someone to host your domain, right? And you also want to keep it up so it doesn't fall in the public domain and somebody else come take it. Now what I will say about that, someone just told me they spent $30,000 on a domain and I was like, but do you own the trademark? No. Okay, so here's the thing, you go buy a domain name And let's say you spent $30,000 on it, right? And just so happened you bought it from someone, let's say they're in the UK, or they're in China, or they're in Africa somewhere, right? But the domain name is actually infringing on someone's brand who owned the trademark in the US. Mm-hmm. And the moment you publish that website, and it looks to be infringing on that trademark, that trademark owner can now force you to turn over that domain name and don't really have to pay you anything. anything for it, right? Right. So you kind of just bought jurisdiction for the trademark owner to enforce his rights, because they can go through an international tribunal, it's called ICANN, to try to recapture the domain name rights and things like that.

There's a higher burden, it might cost a lot of money. But if you just bought the domain, they don't care how much you paid for it, right? But you're infringing on my rights. And that's the legal recourse for a trademark owner to have. And also, I would say that, you know, a lot of people, they just jump out and buy these domains and they don't do any research first. And you want to do the research, you want to clear the name first, or you will be pretty much buying someone's. Just look at what happened with Lamborghini. And there was this guy who bought lambo.com, and he was like, haha, I got lambo.com. You want to buy it from me, Lamborghini? And I think they were willing to entertain an offer until he was like, I need $100 mil or something crazy like that. And they— Lamborghini, rightfully so, was like, I'll take my bets in court. And they filed a lawsuit in court for the domain name to be turned over. And after the judge heard it, he was like, yeah, that's trademark infringement. Give it to him for free. You know, and so that's, that's just things.

That's the benefit of being a trademark owner though, as well. It doesn't have to be your exact name. It could be something deemed confusingly similar.

I don't know how you related to this law case. It's actually been proven to be true. It's within, I think, a brand from Austria, Red Bull. You know, the Red Bull gives you wings. We have to talk about it. I'm curious because you always hear this stuff about a person who thought they're going to get wings and they never got wings. And I've seen how many of these— Yeah, yeah, he sued. He sued and he won $13 million. And so right now it's like Red Bull gives you wings. It's like that, like 3 I's, right? So my point is there's always a loophole to this thing. Do you know anything regarding the case or is it—

I do. And some cases even lawyers be like, now how the hell, right? Like, did you really think you was gonna get wings, right? And it like, and sometimes like, you know, it's about the judge and him hearing testimony and things like, or she, um, she's hearing testimony, like, you know, I think this is the case, I think out of Utah with the young lady. I think it was Utah, but no, maybe it was Seattle, Washington. When the young lady who bought— she wasn't young, I don't think, but she bought coffee from McDonald's and she put it in between her legs and she proceeded to drive and operate a vehicle and the coffee got hot and spilled and burned her. Now we would think common sense, and maybe this was before cup holders were really prevalent, right? But I would think, well, common sense, you shouldn't have put it between your legs, but she actually was able to sue McDonald's. and win millions of dollars, and that's where McDonald's started putting caution, hot, on the cup, right? So sometimes you just have to be really careful, and with the Red Bull situation, it's really about advertisement, right?

Mm-hmm. And so, I mean, I wouldn't think it would give me wings, but I wouldn't think the reasonable person would think it would give them wings, but, you know, it can be a way of saying you're practicing deceptive marketing practice. Uh-huh. Because you're promising people they're going to get wings and they didn't get wings. So I just think that that's one of the outliers that, you know, we, you know, but also it's just really important as business owners when we are stating advertisement claims that we can substantiate them, right? And I think that's really the point behind that case. Like, you know, don't be making false claims. Don't be making fake claims. Because you can get in trouble in court, and you can get in trouble with the FTC. So it's very important that you, you know, you make smart advertisement claims and don't overpromise what you can't deliver.

That's so powerful. That's very, very powerful.

Yeah.

What is the most common way an entrepreneur loses their brand name after years of building it and could be prevented, could have been prevented?

The most common way that I see them is not securing their brand fast enough. I think you were going to ask me a question, but it got redirected. where you're going to say, when is the best time to secure it, right?

Yes.

And I go back to my question, would you build a house on land you don't own, right? Absolutely not. So the land is the foundation, right? So the, the building a brand, you gotta start. So before you invest your time, your money, and your energy, you want to make sure you own the name. Because what you're going to do, you're going to take that name and attach it to your corporation documents, Your business license, your, your actual, um, your bank accounts, right? All of your social media handles, your website. God forbid you're a restaurant and now you got signs outside the door with that, with that name on it. Um, God forbid you have a beauty brand and you sell beauty products and you just ordered 10,000 units with that name on it, because it's so important. If you're gonna build the brand, make sure you own it, because if you don't, someone can force you to turn over that sign that you just paid $25,000 to hang on your restaurant front door, right? They can make you shut down your restaurant and rebrand all your menus and things like that, your napkins and things like that.

They can force you after maybe you done sold 200 units of those products to now turn over the 9,800 that you have left so that it could be destroyed. destroyed because it's infringing on their brand name. So people always say, well, shouldn't I wait till I make money first? If you're willing to take that risk. Mm-hmm. But now, when we're in social media, and it's the wild, wild west, when people see a brand, if they like it, they gonna go duplicate it, and put it on their website, or put it on their social media page. You want to be able to have the legal recourse to shut that down, right? Mm-hmm. So I think, you know, I tell people, if you playing house with your business, like we used to play house when we was kids, it was all make-believe and pretend. Then no, you don't need to— none of this applies to you. But if you're taking your business serious, entrepreneurship serious, and you're doing this to build legacy, you are doing this to actually create generational wealth for your family, Mm-hmm. you need to protect that. We protect all the cars that we buy before we drive them off the lot with insurance.

So why wouldn't we protect our business name that we're going to post and blast to everybody before we begin to actually put that in the marketplace?

I love it so much. If somebody now comes to you today, let's say they make an appointment, they set it up as well, and consultation's there, and they want to secure their brand. Um, what is the first step that you walk them through, and how does that work, like, in order for them to make sure that they have that trademark?

So what we do first is walk them through the process, because this is a government process, it's a legal process, and this process at minimum can take 9 months, right? And people are like, oh my God, like, we're doing better than Canada. They take about 3 years sometimes. But, um, I— we walk them through the process and so that they have realistic expectations. Mm-hmm. The second thing that we do after we walk them through the process is we do the research and we issue them an opinion letter with the search results. And then we get on a one-on-one call. Not a lot of firms do this. We get on a one-on-one call with them and go through the results and let them know what their risk is and what the possible challenges may be if we file the application. So they get to make an educated decision with legal counsel and guidance to decide if they want to move forward with this name or if they want to not move forward with this name and maybe pick a new name and we do a new search. And we don't charge extra for a new search if it's our opinion they shouldn't move forward with the first one.

Now, we have some clients, they're already $50,000, $100,000 in and they like, you know what? Let me just see what happens, right? And we'll do that. And we also, if we think that there's going to be challenges, we create strategy and we talk about the strategy of what we can do to overcome the rejections and the refusals if they should arise. And so I think our clients appreciate that more, and we prepare them for what we tell our clients, the possible worst-case scenario, and we pray for the best. And so That's pretty much how we approach the situation.

I've always been very curious about, um, very common phrases that people may use on like jerseys. I want to make an example, whether it be religious, like In God We Trust, or like let's say for a sports or basketball, like, you know, shoot your shot, you know, like stuff like that. Let's say people end up like creating merch.

Yeah.

And like those are probably trademarked phrases, aren't they?

Well, that's a really great question. I'm happy you raised that because, OK, so when we file the application, the government, the trademark examiner, right, they work for the government, they will actually review the application. And they can either do one of 3 things. They can either approve it for publication. They can either issue an office action, which is non-substantive, just means like technical issues, or they can issue an office action and it's a substantive issue. One of the substantive issues that the government can raise is it fails to function as a trademark. Why? Because it is a common phrase used commonly in the marketplace, and so therefore no one should own it. So remember that situation where those guys was like, um, Kanye wore like White Lives Matter, and he was with Candace Owens, and the guys was like, we gonna shut that down because we actually own it. Well, no, they didn't own it. And I was like, this is a— like, it's a nightmare. Because a trademark law student, one-on-one, can tell you, first of all, you don't own it. You just filed the application. I just told you it takes the government at least 5 to 6 months just to look at the application.

So, you guys don't own it. And secondly, we all should know that White Lives Matter is going to be refused for failure to function as a trademark because Black Lives Matter is not a registered trademark because the government has deemed it failed to function as a trademark. When they decide that, they're basically saying that so many people are using it in the marketplace, it lacks its source identifier. Remember I told you a trademark is a source identifier to where consumers are— products— where consumers can relate back to where a product or service come from. If it lacks the source, it can't function as a trademark. And so that's so very important that people understand that. And that distinction. Now, there has been times we have got failure to function refusals and we have been able to overcome it. We have been able to argue on our client's behalf. And also too, if people in your industry, it might not be a common phrase used in the marketplace, but if they use it a lot in your industry and the government can find evidence for that, they can also refuse it for that as well. That's so good.

That's so fascinating. My mind has been blown. Yeah, I know I'm supposed to do for like the audience, but this is like personal education for me because I mean, you know, I had so many of those questions. So I'm glad you brought that up because sometimes people end up like doing stuff like, I own that thing by just switching up. And that was a good one because I know they came out of the UK, they were doing something, then they came here to the US with the same, uh, White Lives Matter thing during like the first administration of Trump. That is Very fascinating.

Yeah. And you know, another thing that I think people should know, because we see it a lot on the registry as well, you cannot trademark a living individual name without their consent. And even when you file your name as a trademark, you have to give consent, right? So 2 things. One, we see a lot of people trying to file trademarks for Trump or President Obama. Like, if they haven't given consent, they're living individuals, you can't. So the thing with the Diddy situation where somebody was like, No Diddy, I filed that trademark, y'all can't use that trademark now. And I'm like, well, that's going to get denied. Why? Because you don't have consent of Diddy to use No Diddy, and that's his name. And they're like, well, it's not his real name. His real name is Sean Combs. But when we in the marketplace hear Diddy, who do we think of? It identifies with the individual. Exactly. So that will be an issue as well. So a lot of times people will try to trademark other people's name, you're just wasting the filing fee if you don't have the consent. And if you get it through, because we have had some people who get things through, um, they— it's always up for cancellation.

And if you committed fraud on the government— so your trademark can be registered and you don't have to do anything until your 5th and 6th year anniversary, then your 9th and 10th year anniversary, and every 10 years after that. Hmm. Once it's registered for your 5th and 6th year, That's where you will file incontestability, where now your trademark cannot be contested unless you can prove fraud, right? Anytime someone can prove fraud, they can always contest the trademark. So if you said that this person gave you consent, or it doesn't identify with a person, and that person can prove otherwise, that's an issue too. Now, if you're considered a living legend and you die, right?

Michael Jackson.

Michael Jackson, Bob Marley, right? You cannot go out and use their name or trademark their name without their estate consent, right? So Bob Marley, his family has done a really great job protecting his legacy and his name. Bob Marley's family have sued a coffee company for using his name without their permission, because you got to pay this estate if you want to use his name, right? And so as a living legend, um, your estate actually own the rights to your name.

Is there a database where you can try and see which names and stuff have already been trademarked? What's it called?

uspto.gov. So it's the United States Patent and Trademark Office, and it's .gov. And be careful, do not go to .com, do not go to .co. They're all scams, right? And that's another thing, because the USPTO is a public website and anybody can see this information, When you file your application, the scammers are going to come out the woodwork. They're going to try— if you are doing it yourself, they're going to call you, they're going to act like they're a government official, they're going to try to say if you don't pay them right away, they're going to cancel your application. First of all, if the government call you, they would never demand that you make a payment over the phone. Mm-hmm. You will always make all of your payments through the uspto.gov. Anybody call you, whether they calling you telling you somebody then in jail, all the scammers, right? If it's urgent, you gotta pay right away, like, that should raise your spidey senses to say, hold on. Mm-hmm. Get off my phone and let me figure out what's going on, right? Um, because the scammers is real and they're real even in trademark law. Um, after you file your application, you're going to get so much scam mail, so much spam mail.

Um, when we file our clients' application, we list ourselves as the attorney of record. We don't even put our client's phone number on the application anymore because the scammers have started calling applicants by their phone number.

That's wild. There's a— I follow sports a lot, and this is something that also blows my mind. I don't understand why I even have like an hour and a few minutes with you. I have so much of questions. So you've been killing these answers. I've really been appreciative. So there's a soccer player in England right now. goes by the name of Cole Palmer. Uh, he's very— he's a very, very good soccer player, plays for a team in London called Chelsea. So he has a celebration which is a very trendy celebration because his name is Cole Palmer. He's known as like Ice Cold. So whenever he scores a goal, he does this like celebration.

Oh, I got issues with that. I'm gonna tell you why, but go ahead.

So he does a celebration and it's, it's, it's, it's pretty cool, especially because One season he was completely killing it. I think he was a young player of the season at one point. And last year, towards the end, something came out which was tweeted saying that he had trademarked the celebration. That's a question for you now. How on earth does that work? How do you trademark a celebration, something that's so popular like that?

So it's crazy because when you said that, I'm like, wait a minute now, Chicago Bears, Caleb. The Iceman, you know, every time he scored a touchdown, that's— that was what he was doing.

When did he do that?

Um, last season.

Exactly, from Cole Palmer.

I'm not accepting that. I don't know if that's what— I don't know that. I don't know that because the first time I seen it, it was from a Chicago Bear. His name is Caleb.

Okay, so that explains why he did that, because his celebration was so trendy that NFL players, even basketball players, were using it. I mean, we know LeBron hasn't trademarked the silencer, you know, that whole like, um, when he scores like randomly, he does like, like once every like 2, 3 seasons.

Yeah.

And Ronaldo's got the most popular celebration in all of sports, like this, you know. But I'm glad you mentioned— but how does that work though?

So you actually can trademark your body motion as a logo, right? Um, it has to be a design mark. So of course, like him rubbing you're not going to catch the motion, right? But think about Michael Jordan, the Jumpman logo. That's the silhouette of him, right? Um, someone else who did it was Usain Bolt. So if you remember, like, after he run and he pulled back, he trademarked that. Um, and then recently in sports, since we talking about sports, uh, I, I hope I don't say his name wrong because I'm— the Bears woke me up, okay, because I'm from Chicago. But Saquon Barkley. Did I say that right?

Barkley, I think. Barkley.

Okay. And what does he play for, Eagles or something?

Yeah.

And when he did that reverse, like, so he trademarked that, like his reverse huddle move. So like, it's like, it's like, like if you Google it, it's like just like him flipping in the air, but it's like catching him in that stance, right? So you like, it's a design mark, really. That's what it is. So, you can trademark, like, your signature, like, if you have a signature pose or a signature statue that you adopt as a person, you can do that. And normally how it's done is as a design mark.

But, you know, what drives me nuts is that some people have done this thing before, before it became trademarked, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And then one big public figure ends up, like, taking it and taking it to the next level. So, it's so unfair.

But then also, too, Because it— you do have— and that's what I want to talk about when we talk about failure to function as a trademark. Um, but who was the first to attach it to a product or service? Hmm. That's the question, right? That's the test, right? Because even when you go— that's why it's so important that if you have something that's going viral, that you protect it right away. Like, if you feel like it's going viral, like, look at what just happened with the very cute, very demure, right? Mr. Tenderness, right? Um, all these sayings was going viral, but Because of social media, thankfully, we know who these originators are. But if it loses its source, it fails. So if you feel like, oh my God, this is catching, everybody's saying, you need to trademark right away so you don't lose the source.

Another example, which we learned, you know, that girl that went viral 2 years ago, Haqq Tour.

I don't know that one.

Okay. Have you heard about that, Caleb? The Hot Tour Girl.

What did she do?

It's funny, you know what's crazy? I've asked like 5 women, nobody knows about it.

But all the men in the room know about it. Like, tell me what's going on, what'd she do?

This was, this was my algorithm for 3 weeks. She was popping every single day. So they met these guys, um, interviewers, and it was outside. It could have been Nashville. She was, I think, from Tennessee or something like that. And, um, she was, um asking the lady, what can you do to try and keep your, you know, keep your man happy or whatever it may be. She obviously said something explicit which became viral, and it became like a court case between the team that was interviewing her and actually her. So she was just saying she became like a Huck Tour girl because she was doing the actual— I have to

go look that up. No,

nobody was— oh, it's 100% of American eyes.

And that's interesting. I have to go look up that case because—

Her name is Hayley Welsh. So she's known as the Hug Tour girl. They end up trademarking Hug Tour Media. She was signed up by Jake Paul. She literally went from no social media to 2 million in like one night. That's how crazy.

And I bet you the argument probably was the person who was interviewing her, right? She probably thought she had some rights it because she was the creative media, right? So the copyrights under it, right? The creative expression and the video is what put it out. But she's saying, well, I said it and I'm using it. That's my trademark.

And she won it though.

I bet, because she said it, right? And so, um, it can get interesting like that. So, you know, as you are creating creative works, just know who owns the copyright. But because she said it and she probably started using it, She owns it as a trademark.

Wow. So I want to know, let's say somebody's curious, um, in pursuing this thing. The best part about it is the fact that you said you were also like in Utah. You mentioned a variety of different states and all that. Um, if somebody now is listening and they want to try and trademark their brand, um, because I think when we think of trademark, we're thinking like, oh my gosh, it's going to be like $100,000, it's going to be— so people just push it aside as well. What are the estimated fees for the process for this kind of stuff? Yeah.

And I will say this. Um, I told you I couldn't— yeah, I couldn't get a job, right? But I absolutely love what I do so much that my firm has been ranked in the top 50 in the nation for the last past 7 years by Paxdia. And so I went from begging for a job to actually creating jobs and actually outranking some of the firms that I applied for. Okay. And then I say that too, because I have also been recently ranked as number 8 out of 33,000 trademark attorneys in the country. Um, and, and that's by Husky AI. And, um, I would say I— it still sticks with me today to keep serving the underserved, right? Uh, eventually I am gonna, you know, create an expansion of my business where we work with enterprise and corporate clients. But for entrepreneurs, we charge— it starts at $1,997. And sometimes we run specials and things like that, and that includes us doing the rates. Only $2,000? Only, right? And, and here's the thing, as the Black woman on the top 100 list, right, I'm probably the least paid, right? But I'm okay with that for now because I want to help entrepreneurs.

And also too, a lot of people just don't have this education and they don't know, and it's still prevalent where people are still going out building businesses, building brands, and they don't even— they don't do this first step first, right? And not only is it only $2,000, that includes the filing fee that goes to the government. Mm-hmm. So we— right now the filing fee is $350. Donald Trump is your president, so it might go up soon. But, um, it's— that includes the filing fee as well. But also what I will tell you is, um, That we also offer Affirm, we have Karna, we have Afterpay. So it's no really reason why you should start your business without doing this research, without, you know, at least staking claim to the rights. Now, the Trademark Office does say you either have to be using it or have a bona fide intent to use it, because I know a lot of people say, well, I'm not using it yet. But if you have the name Right. And you know, you're about to build this brand after doing the research and we do the clearance search, you can file an intent to use so that way, you know, you have protected your rights, um, from the onset.

So yes, only $2,000. It's supposed to increase very soon, but right now it's $1,997.

But still, like I was expecting, I mean, cause it's trademark, it's something that like you helping somebody earn, own the rights. You know, so I, I'm, and my assumption, obviously I went the $100 to try and like play it safe, but I was assuming it was at least in the $15,000, $20,000, because this is a big deal. You know, you know, somebody paying, I mean, people pay domains they don't even own.

Yep. Someone just told me they paid $30,000 for a domain. They don't even own the name and then be hesitant to pay for the trademark. But, um, someone I met at the podcast summit had just told me, yeah, I just got a quote for, uh, quote for $17,000. for my trademark. And I was like, yeah, so, yeah, so certain people, it varies based on who you're working with. But I will tell you, we actually— I know you said 4,000 in an interview, but we have filed over 6,000 applications to date. We have a very high success rate. We do the research, we sit with our clients, we talk with our clients before getting the application filed. Like, I don't want it to be any excuse why you didn't secure your brand. So, you know, and also the thing that I'm sure people are like, well, how many classes does that include? So we got to talk about classes. So there are actually 45 different classes.

I was going to ask that.

Yeah. Yeah. 1 through 34 is like— I'm ready to answer all the questions before they even get them in their mind, right? So 1 through 34 is products. 35 through 45 is services. Now, a lot of people, when they hear 45 classes, oh my God, I need all 45. No, you don't. Right? The Class 1 is like chemicals. You're not making chemicals, you're not producing chemicals, you don't, you know. And I would tell you, most clients— the most I have seen a client need within their brand is probably about 5 to 6. Now that's where it could probably go up in price because the $19.97 covers one application, one class, right? But if they're going to add on another class, then we'll do it at a reduced rate. It won't be you know, um, very less because we still have to pay $350 per class to the government as well. And we do the research and we file them separately. And that's a practical reason.

No, but that's— I'm glad you touched on those 45 different trademark classes. But what is the most dangerous mistake entrepreneurs make when they file without understanding what class they actually need?

Oh my God. So I was actually in an event Um, it was a big room full of people, maybe like I would say about 500 people. This young lady, she stands up, she has the mic, and she's like, um, I own this brand, this is my clothing line, and she's pointing to herself and she says the brand name, and she's like 2 rows ahead of me. And so in good fashion, Trademark Lauren, what did I do? I went to the uspto.gov and looked up her trademark as she's talking, right? And she's like, you know, I filed my trademark, I did it myself. And as I'm listening to her and looking up her trademark— so I told you I'm from Chicago, the west side of Chicago, and I probably look younger than what I am, but I grew up in an era where we didn't have washers and dryers, right? Mm-hmm. We had maybe the washing machine in the basement, and my grandmother hung our clothes out on the back porch. and we had a clothesline and clothespins to dry our clothes. Okay? That's where I come from. Well, this young lady, not knowing the difference between the classes, she actually protected her brand for a clothesline.

So she probably thought she was protecting it for a clothing line, which is a completely different class from a clothesline. Okay? So now if someone go and file, let's say not even her name, but something similar in the actual apparel class, they may be awarded it because the examiner is going to say, well, there's no conflict there, because certain trademarks can coexist in the marketplace. Mm-hmm. That's why we have Dove Chocolate, Dove Soap, MAC Makeup, Mac Computer, Delta Air Lines, Delta Faucet, Pandora Jewelry, Pandora Music. So you just protected your brand for a clothesline, not knowing you're— you haven't protected your brand at all, and it should have been protected for a clothing line, which is a different class.

There's a Big Mac and there's a MacBook, you know, and stuff like that. And what about stuff that are just like part of the dictionary and just used like a glass of water? Like, you know, how do you trademark water? Because everyone's been drinking it all this time. So how do you trademark stuff that have existed before even—

I rolled my eyes because there's a certain trademark bully out there with the name that describes the person, and they want to attack everybody. But like, they need to watch out because we're gonna come and cancel that mark if y'all keep playing with me and my clients. I'm not gonna mention them just to be professional. But what I would say about that is certain trademarks, you cannot protect generic or descriptive marks, right? Okay. So like, if you say I want to protect water and you selling water, you can't stop other people or your competitors from using the word water because that's what describes the product.

Exactly.

But you can't protect, let's say, Apple, and you're selling electronics, right? Because it's arbitrary. You're not selling the actual apple, but you're selling like Camel cigarettes, BlackBerry, right? So as long as it's not the actual thing that it describes or defines, then you're using in an arbitrary way, then you can protect it in that way.

Boom, boom. And I want to steer Reiterate again, you did mention 70 years plus the lifetime of the person that trademarked something, right?

No, that's for copyright. So each intellectual property has a different life and time span, right? So for copyright, it's 70 years plus the life of the author who created it, right? But if you transfer it to the actual corporation, it could be 95 years or 120 years under the corporation, right, of ownership. That's a copyright. But a patent will last 20 years. If it's a design patent, it will be 14 to 15 years about. But a trade secret, remember I told you, as long as it's a secret, it will be protected under the law. Mm-hmm. Think about Coca-Cola. It's been around since the 1800s. Mm-hmm. But also, a trademark, as long as you use it, you will not lose it, but you have to continuously renew your maintenance and your documents, like I told you about, between the 5th, 6th year anniversary, 9th and 10th year anniversary. And every 10 years thereafter. Coca-Cola has been registered since 1893. Mercedes has been registered since 1903. So you can trademark your brand and it can outlive you. It could be a legacy play, right, for your generation and generation after that. So, yes.

My mind's blown on this. It really is. Speaking of sports again, um, we, we I mean, the World Cup's been here. Unfortunately, the wrong team won today in Atlanta, and I gotta go watch Argentine jerseys walk up and down the streets of— that's a story for another day. Um, the soccer stars are probably the biggest public figures around the world outside the US. Like, like Cristiano Ronaldo's got the biggest following on social media, I think 685, like, million.

Wow.

Uh, number one, and then followed by his rival, who's Messi, are like 590-something. No, he's past 600, you know, which is ridiculous because everybody knows them. Like what LeBron is to America, Ronaldo is to the world, but times 5.

Oh wow.

And so, um, right now when they sign any stars, like in Europe, they have managers and agents that own, uh, or like that help the players own their likeness and their image rights.

Yeah.

And it's something that's been ever so popular in the last like 15 years because social media has just like been such a big thing in helping build people's brands as well. And I've just been very interested because sometimes players can sign into a team, but the team does not own the image and likeness as well.

Which is a blessing.

I know, right? Like, and for those that don't fully understand that, can you just give a quick summary of what I just explained? Because I don't even understand. I just—

Well, and it really can be for sports, it can be for an entertainer. And I think it's so popular here now because recently the NCAA, as far as like college leagues and things like that, they passed where players can now do NIL deals, right? And that was so big because at one time they're playing, but they can't get paid and things like that. People want to endorse them, or they want them to endorse their products and services. And so now it has been a great thing because— so your name, right, is your name, which you will want to own the trademark for. And why? As I'm going down the streets of Atlanta, all I see is jerseys with Massey on the back of it, right? Unfortunately. But you don't want everybody to be able to just sell your jersey with your name on it without you capitalizing off of that, right? So you want to make sure that whoever's producing those jerseys, they have a license to use your name. And in order to have that power, you want to own the rights to it. And so that's why under your name, you trademark it.

Okay. And then as far as your image and likeness, they have to have permission to actually use your image or likeness, especially for commercial purposes. You know, I told you I'm from Chicago, and this very famous case— I used to work in Dominick's at the Chase Bank inside. But unfortunately, Dominick's grocery stores are no longer with us anymore. But they one time they use McDonald's— Michael Jordan, his picture in connection to like some steaks they were selling, like in like the food paper or whatever advertising, and they didn't have permission to use his name, his image, or his likeness for commercial purposes. And Michael Jordan sued them and he won, right? Of course. And so, right, it just— and that's what it comes down to. If you're going to use my name, image, and likeness, regardless if I am a soccer player, if I'm an actor, if I'm an entrepreneur, you have to have my permission, and we have to work out something where you pay me to do that.

So powerful. I mean, I can't believe time has flown by so fast. We're like an hour and 15 in. I just have 2 questions. Is that okay? Yes. It's just about, I think, um, What's been the most rewarding part of being an entrepreneur in this journey?

For me, it's being able to determine my journey and where I'm going, right? Like, really, no one has control over that but me. And that just has been powerful for me. Because typically, like where I'm from, like, you kind of have to conform to like, other people, like rules or constraints and things like that. Now, as a lawyer, I'm always a professional, you know, I'm gonna always follow my code of ethics and things like that. I'm not doing anything crazy, but I get to determine, you know, my firm, it's based out of Chicago, but we, we, we're open from 10 to 6:30 PM, right? Like, I get to set the hours, I get to decide who I want to work with, right? Um, as an entrepreneur, like Like, every client is not my client, right? Like, if you're very— if you're not respectful to me or my team, um, because one thing I tell my team, we offer Chick-fil-A service. We want to try to be the best we can be for our clients, and we, we deserve a level of respect. Everybody does. So I, you know, that, that is empowering to say, no, I don't want to work with you because, you know, it's, you know, we demand respect here, right?

Yes, we do.

Um, and so it's just having that type of freedom to do that, but then also like having a vision of something that you have never seen done before and just knowing that God is powering that to come to a reality. And I think like entrepreneurs kind of more so can understand that, right? Like everybody may not understand it, they may not get it, but God gave me this vision, and I am— I know he's behind me and he's powering it. And I think that's a blessing, that as an entrepreneur, I hold that something special that he has given to me. And it's so crazy that at the end of the day, he's helping me, but it's also in turn helping all these amazing entrepreneurs become owners of their brands in a way that has never been done before.

That's amazing. Amazing. Well, Rosina, I always ask all the entrepreneurs that I interview, like coast to coast, all in the US as well, winning means something different for every single person I've interviewed. For like you yourself and your journey, everything you've done, what does the term today, like winning, mean for you?

That's a good question. For me, winning means not quitting. So my father always told me, quitters never win and winners never quit. And I've been doing this business now for 13 years, and there could have been a lot of things that took me out from this journey of entrepreneurship, right? It's not easy, right? Especially if you have a team that's relying on you, and you know, there's just things that you deal with, but you figure out a way. I have become, as an entrepreneur, I don't like focusing on problems. I like focusing on solutions. And so for me, winning is just not quitting and making sure that I understand that the vision God has given me, if it was impossible, he wouldn't have given it to me. So therefore, I will not quit. So therefore, I will come out a winner.

That's so powerful. If you could let our viewers know where they could get a hold of you, social media, your law firm, how they could start, if there's any like materials that you might have, could you let our viewers know where they could do that?

Yes, absolutely. So I am Rosina Pierce. My firm is RJ Pierce Law Group, but you can easily find me on Instagram @thebizlawyer. That's T-H-E-B-I-Z lawyer. But also too, you can visit our website at securethebrand.com. Again, that's securethebrand.com.

The code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow. Rosina J. Pierce, thank you so much, man.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.