Transcript of The Five Success Wounds: The Mental Roadblocks Holding You and Your Business Back

By the time I was 24, I was managing $80 million in advertising revenue. And 3 things happened in succession that really caused me to change everything. The first is that my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer at the age of 60 and given 3 years to live. The second is that I was sexually harassed by my direct manager at Google. And then the third is that it became very evident that I had a problem with alcohol. What might look from the outside as like a typical 20-something, but from the inside it was like, Severe anxiety, depression, and alcoholism.

One thing you say which feels personal is firstborn daughters. The eldest daughter is way more likely to burn out. There is a big success wound there.

That's almost like an example of what's called being a parentified child. And the research shows that the child who is expected to behave as a parent, a co-parent in the house, that is then correlated later in life with an increase of perfectionism, a decrease of self-esteem, and the expectation expectation that, again, my worthiness, maybe yours, of like love and belonging to my parents was being like the responsible older sister.

So good. Okay, let's get into the success wounds. Every single woman listening to this is about to see themselves described very well.

Oh, good. Okay. So these 5 are like the most common constellation of behaviors or archetypes that show up as a means to keep us safe, certain, and in control. So the first one is the grinder.

So you talk a lot about the women that have this success wound. They often come from big companies, you know, McKinsey, Google, fill in the blank. A lot of my listeners actually don't have anyone else to blame. They are the ones that built the businesses, they built the launch calendars, they put the deadlines in place themselves. But I would argue still have very much of the same success wound. So in that situation, what is to blame? What's underneath that?

Yeah. So the success wound in its kind of like basic definition is the pain that comes from mistaking success for self-worth. And it's a belief that we all inherit as kids that our worthiness of love and belonging is contingent upon what we produce, achieve, and, and do rather than the inherent goodness of who we are. So, you know, as we grow up and maybe, um, decide to start a business, That can become intensified, probably in my experience, so much more when you are a small business owner and when you are trying to build your business than when you do work at a, you know, a Google or a McKinsey. Because that, first of all, that identity of being a business owner is so tied to who you are such that the outputs, your results, what your clients think about you is a, feels like a direct reflection of your value as a person. Whereas sometimes, you know, uh, you can hide behind, well, the Google brand or the McKinsey brand or like that corporate brand. But there's nowhere to hide when you're a business owner, and so it can feel so personal, it can feel so deflating when things don't go your way, and that is what causes us to really ride like the highs and lows of entrepreneurship.

And so, my work with a lot of my clients is to help them hold, you know, their business objectives and their ambition in one hand and their self-worth in another hand and have them both, you know, kind of flourish in the way that we want them to. Yeah.

Yeah. And one thing I really love about your book and the way you talk about all of this is you actually don't need to quit the job or burn the business down to do this. In fact, 60% of the career women you worked with didn't even quit the job, but they changed their approach to it. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yes, that's right. And that's what I find to be so, um, heartening about this is the fact that you don't have to shut your business down. You don't have to leave the job that you've built that you care so much about. Fulfillment really comes from how you work, not necessarily what you do for work. And I know that might be a little bit like, are you sure? Especially for people who are so passionate about what they do. But passion and purpose and loving the content of your work is only really 40% of it. The other 60% is how am I approaching my work? So I have an example of a client. Her name is Sarah, and she was about to leave the business that she's just spent 14 years building. I'm sure you hear this all the time. It's like, I'm at a breaking point.

Been there, done that.

Yeah, been there. Yeah, me too. And it's like, She said, I feel like my clients have become my bosses and I've just, I've created the same cage that I thought I had left 14 years ago. And so she was, she was like, I'm coming to you to be like, should I shut this down? Or, you know, what can I change? And we really got to work. Um, I gave her this test and this is something that anybody can use. I call it like the $10 million test. So I was like, Sarah, imagine I had a blank check for $10 million and it has your name on it.

Mm-hmm.

And all you have to do is figure out a way to shift your working patterns and shift your relationship with work in order to get that $10 million. I was like, what are all the things that you would do? And she made a list that day. She was like, okay, I guess I would, you know, set expectations differently at the beginning of my client relationships. Or, you know, I guess I would shut my laptop at 8:00 PM. Or I guess I would maybe cut the toxic client that has been like the good paycheck, but You know, it's become too expensive. So she had, at the end, she had like 30 different actions that she could take. And slowly but surely, like week over week, she did those and she was able to really reposition the business that she had.

So good. Okay. One thing you say, which feels personal, is firstborn daughters. The eldest daughter is way more likely to burn out. Now I really believe this too. I see this a lot. In fact, I seem to make friends mostly with eldest daughters. And I'm one of 8. I'm the eldest daughter of 8 kids. So I see this. And I think there is a big success wound there. Can you go into a bit of that?

Yeah. Yes. So I am not one of 8, but I am one of 3. And I have a much younger sister. Like, I have a sister who's 8 years younger. And for whatever reason, I'm curious if this was your experience too. I felt like she was my baby in a weird way. Like, I liked to dress her. I liked to play with her. Did you have that relationship?

Yeah, I have siblings. My— I'm 34 now. And my youngest brother is 15. So I did move out when I was 13, lots of chaos in the household, but still had a very different relationship with the younger ones. It was less of that sibling, you feel like you need to take care of them. And it's just different.

Yes, exactly. So that's almost like an example of what's called being a parentified child. And the research shows that it's really the parentified child, the child who is expected to behave as a parent, a co-parent in the house, That is then correlated later in life with an increase of perfectionism, a decrease of self-esteem, and the expectation that, again, our, my worthiness, maybe yours, of like, um, love and belonging to my parents was being like the responsible older sister. Um, and so this study actually came out like this year. It's very fresh. And they said that it's not necessarily birth order, but it's that parentification that's correlated and causal with those later in life, um, outcomes in the workplace.

So.

So most often it is the firstborn daughter that's parentified. But if you're listening and you're like the second daughter, or maybe like the third, or maybe your older sibling had mental health issues or behavioral issues or something, and you were expected to rise up, you could have the same impact too.

Or if you had to parent your, your, your parents.

Yes.

I see that a lot too.

That's a really good point. Yeah, that's exactly right. So, um, you know, in my upbringing, I remember this one time my brother, he might kill me for saying this, but like he was caught smoking weed. And I knew, I knew it for like a year that he was doing that, but I kept the secret. And I got in more trouble than he did because I kept the secret. And there was an expectation that I would have, you know, shared that, like maybe convinced him not to, essentially like be a parent to him.

Yeah.

And that was like a real paradigm shift for me. And I was like, okay, I guess I have to be again, like the responsible one, the one that takes on things that aren't mine to own. the one that behaves in a more mature way. It felt like my childhood like ended in that moment. And so no wonder we grow up into adults that later in life are expected to, you know, pick up the slack or maybe do the, do the work you paid somebody else to do, right? Like take ownership over things, which of course can be a huge asset, right? But the downside is that it can lead to burnout and disengagement later on.

And I also see it not just in the workplace too, but just general over-functioning in relationships, people pleasing, You know, taking on way too much, thinking your worth is in how much you do. How much do you see this? Yes, in the workplace, but then just affect every part of these women's lives?

Yeah, it really is endemic and like chronic. So the way, like the, almost like the paradigm that I view this through is that success wound. So if you just like link it over, we all have these images of the ideal or like a good working woman that we should be. I'm curious for what, what yours is. Mine is like this idea of the effortless entrepreneur, that her revenue goes up and to the right, you know, like quarter over quarter perfectly. She's invited into all the right rooms, all the great podcasts. It's like effortless, right? Some of the clients that I speak with are like, you know, the image of the perfect working woman is like the well-balanced woman who can do it all.

I think that's mine.

Yeah, she's a great mom, she works out, she can take care of herself, and she has this multimillion-dollar business. Yeah, tough, right? But again, that is what links to, you know, this notion that we develop early on of like, I need to live up to an ideal of success rather than who I actually want to be. And so that can then turn us into entrepreneurs where it's like, if it is, if it's not all systems go, if I'm not always living up to my sky-high expectations, then I'm not enough. And that, uh, that's the trap.

I think that's the root of so much, just not feeling good enough. And especially too, as a working mom, when you are split in so many different ways, it can be really challenging to ever feel like you're doing enough. Does— do you feel like the work you did on yourself before having your baby— I mean, you were writing this book when you were pregnant, it was probably the best medicine— how's that impacted how you parent?

Yeah, a couple different ways. That was like the big question that was on my heart, and a lot of people, you know, are curious about, which is like Um, how do we raise kids that love to achieve?

Mm-hmm.

But also love themselves? And that was the question. I was like, what, you know, what is that? What even, you know, talking to some of my, my, um, uh, clients, they're like, my parents did their best. It was all very well-meaning. We're not, you know, pointing a finger. I always say our success wound is not our fault, but it is our responsibility.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think, you know, some of the research says that when we're parenting our kids, the part of the brain that is responsible for intelligence and achievement is not the same part of the brain that's responsible for resilience and relationship-making.

Wow, interesting.

Yes, and so when we're reinforcing for kids intelligence, grades, and achievement, we're growing that part of the brain. But when we're reinforcing to them things like resilience, like how do we make meaning from setbacks? You fell, you got back up. And we have to be that for our kids because they can't make meaning from these, like, you know, these things. It takes that level of maturity to be like, You didn't make the JV, but look at all the friends you've made in this other sports team, or, you know, stuff like that. And then, um, the other part is relationships. How do we make friendships? Because resilience and relationships are, are the biggest factors that determine long-term happiness and success. It's not achievement and intel— intelligence. So just really being aware of how am I reinforcing resilience and relationships with my kid and like modeling that a little bit. Um, and how am I making meaning of even like my successes for my kid?

So good. Okay, let's get into the success wounds. I have a feeling I know which ones I am, but I would love for you to explain the different wounds. And then maybe you can, if you want to diagnose me, feel free. Um, but I really think every single woman listening to this is about to see themselves described very well.

Oh, good. Okay. So these are the 5 ways that the success wound shows up in our business or in the workplace, in our working habits. It is the ways that our psyche attempt to protect the part of us that feels worthy, hurt, not enough. So these 5 are like the most common constellation of behaviors or archetypes that show up as a means to keep us safe, certain, and in control, but end up stealing our joy and fulfillment in the same— at the same time. Okay, so the first one is the grinder. This is the person who wants to have more, do more, be more. This is what most female business owners You know, the trap they fall into.

Okay.

So this is like, I'm working really hard, but past the point of diminishing returns.

Right.

I've lost the idea of like, what's most essential? What are my OKRs? What are my priorities? I'm just this like productivity machine and my head can't hit the pillow at night unless everything's checked off my to-do list, unless all of my emails are responded to, and they get a high from doing more. That's the grinder. Then we have the pleaser. This is the person who's constantly wondering like, are they mad at me? What are they thinking about me? How's my standing? For an entrepreneur, this would look like needing to please her clients and like a bad review or a snide remark could send her spinning for days or weeks and make her feel insecure or like her, you know, livelihood could get taken from her.

Yep.

This is the person who's always wanting to, you know, keep the peace and people please and probably has social anxiety or an anxious attachment style, another Areas. Their notion of success is being liked. They want to be universally liked and approved of. Then we have the hider. This is an interesting one. So this is the person who might look successful from the outside, but secretly harbors bigger or different dreams for her career.

Ooh.

So it's not that she's necessarily playing small. It's that she knows that there's like more for her or different for her, for her. And so For her, success is looking like perfect or in control. And if she fails, then she feels like a failure. This is the one that I fall into most often. And this, I feel like there's so much more I could do in my career, but I like making things like really manageable and having my hands around them. And I fear almost like the bigness in a way, because that feels like I would then be out of control. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you see this with people?

I see it a lot.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Like, I'm just gonna like keep it all manageable and small because I'm scared of what could happen if it gets Yes.

And then there's that secret desire of actually wanting the big thing. And then we get into it and there's always one foot on the gas, but one foot on the brake. And we have to figure out how can we take the foot off the brake so we can go, but then not go into burnout.

Yes, yes, exactly. Okay. I need help with that. Um, and then we have the seeker. So this is the person, we all have a girlfriend like this. They call you up and they're like, Natalie, I finally figured it out. Like, it's gonna be like, I'm gonna change my business model and my audience to be like about this instead. instead, or I'm gonna open the flower shop. It's like, it's like the 6th career pivot or business pivot, and they haven't stayed long enough to like have that success. In a corporate environment, it could look like job hopping over and over again, but for business owners, it's like repositioning or rebranding over and over again because they feel either bored or stale, and they have that like restlessness that can't be quelled. And by the way, the next rebrand isn't going to solve your problems. There's something else deeper that's going on.

I see this one all the time, especially in the early stage of business when it's hard to get something off the ground. They hit that resistance and pivot.

Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, we gotta stay, we gotta figure it out.

Exactly, exactly, totally. Um, and then we have the work hard, play hard. So this is the person— this is what I was when I was at Google. This is the person who lives on the pain-pleasure seesaw. It's like they work so hard to be the best and to look— have it look great from the outside Monday through Thursday. And then when Friday rolls around, it's like, I deserve the glass of wine. I deserve the expensive vacation. I deserve, maybe even for entrepreneurs, it's like investing 6 figures in my business in order for it to look a certain way. Um, for them it's a lot about like appearances and wanting to be the best cuz you only live once. But you know, there's a little bit of like that addiction to the next thing. I like to call these like the former party girls, the people who have a lot of like zest for life and energy and ambition. And they need to be aware of that, like, addictive personality underneath all of that.

Yeah. I think I'm a mix of the grinder and work hard, play hard.

Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. That was going to be my guess.

Yeah.

Was the grinder, work hard, play hard. Now, the primary difference, if people are wondering, like, what's the difference between the two? Because both work really hard. Grinders tend to— and by the way, you can be multiple, right? Like, it depends on, like, the season or phase of your life.

Yeah.

Grinders tend to get a high from like, again, checking something off their to-do list, whereas work hard play hards, like they live for the, like, you know, the high and, you know, the exhilaration of the treat. Yeah.

So someone's listening, they're identifying, okay, I have a success wound. This is interesting. She's speaking directly to me. Now what?

Yes. So we need to look at the psychology and the neuroscience behind fulfillment next. So Um, you know, the Brooke sitting in front of you and the Natalie here, we're not one singular self. We actually have 3 parts of our psyche, and they're constantly either at odds with each other or in harmony with each other. And the first part of our psyche is called the wounded self. This is the part of us that holds all of the pain, shame, hurt, embarrassment from, you know, our years growing up. It is constantly whispering to us like, I'm not enough. Then we have the second part of our psyche called the protector self that is determined to protect that wounded part from ever feeling hurt, threatened, or interfered with. And so it, that is the part of us that adopts the grinding, hiding, pleasing, seeking, working hard and playing hard because it doesn't want us to feel, you know, be viewed as incompetent or a failure or something like that. Now, the thing about our protector self is that it's constantly calling the shots.

Mm-hmm.

In our careers and in our businesses, um, because if we're working from a place of our success wound, of fear of not being enough and scarcity. But then we have this third part of our psyche called our true self, which is the part of us that is naturally and effortlessly confident, courageous, clear, calm. She knows who she is, what she wants, and how to get it. And she is the part of us that maybe even had that idea early on and was like, ooh, what if I, did start this business, what could it be like? And so, for so many business owners, it was like we started out working from our true self and following that calling and that intuition, but then our protector self kind of stepped in and started calling the shots later on. And so, the work that I have with my clients and the aim of my coaching and my books and everything is to help like relax that protector self and let our true self call the shots more often than not in the workplace. Now you might be like, maybe not you, but other people listening might be like, oh, true self, like that sounds like a little woo-woo.

Like what good is that gonna do if I have like real revenue goals to attain? So, um, are you familiar with the 2005 Steve Jobs commencement speech at Stanford?

No.

He had this iconic commencement speech when he was, he was ill at the time. And wild enough, my dad had the foresight, 'cause I grew up in Palo Alto too, where Stanford is. to take us all to see this commencement speech when I was a kid. And he stood up there and said 2 famous things. He said, one, you know, you can only connect the dots looking backwards, and that the best part of his ability to lead at Apple and create incredible products and to create even the iPhone and the, and the iPod was his ability to trust his intuition. And even his predecessor, Tim Cook, said, I'm an analytical guy at heart, but the most important business decisions I've ever made have come from my knowing and a state of regulation. Tim Cook said that, right? And so this is the part of us that is able to hold a higher perspective, that when we're grinding is able to pull up and be like, actually, I really need to deliver on these 3 things this quarter, and that's what's really gonna move the needle. Or actually, I'm playing small in my business, in my hider a little bit.

I need to just figure out this one funnel for this course and like let that be enough. Or if you're pleasing, it's like, you know what, actually I do need to like set, reset expectation and like recontract with this one client. And your protector self will never say that because your protector self wants to keep itself in business. It wants to keep doing those things because it feels out of control if it doesn't. So that's a sign that you're working from your true self when you're like, wait, hold on, I need to take opposite action here.

And what was the second thing he said?

Um, he said, well, sorry, it was kind of 2 different ideas. It was like, you can only connect the dots looking backwards, meaning like you have to always, you know, take a look at retrospect and pull up to a bigger perception. And then the other thing was like, you know, the best decisions he made was from his true self.

So, so good. I am such a big advocate of parts work. I think it is so game-changing. And I do think for ambitious women like us, one of the hardest things to do is to take the protector part off of the driving wheel and put her in the back seat. And I think, because I see A lot of the content I put out there right now around that millennial identity crisis and career crisis goes wild, and I get a lot of feedback on it. And so it's been really interesting to talk to women around this. And I think one of the big issues we are having with taking the protector part from driving the vehicle to put him— putting her in the back seat is we don't know who that true self is.

Yes.

And from a very young age, especially as women, we haven't really been praised for the true self.

That's it.

We've been praised for achievement, for, you know, how we look, for fill in the blank. So many things that might not have been our true nature. Because if your true nature was loud, you were too loud. If your true nature was, um, you know, being the boss, then you were bossy. If your true nature was very assertive, then you were angry. There was always a label put on you for most women So what do you see as being the key to actually figuring out, oh, this is my true self. And I, you know, maybe I'm in my mid-30s and I've never actually stopped to get to know my true self.

So there are kind of 3 of the quickest ways to access your true self are through your zone of genius, your values, and presence. So first of all, your zone of genius is not just like a CliftonStrengths Finder or what you were praised for. Your zone of genius are your natural gifts and talents that you come to the world with that intersect what people need from you. Um, and so understanding your zone of genius can be done very simply. You can take out your phone and you can text maybe 10 people, a cross-section of people in your life, like a business partner, somebody who used to work with, a friend, a family member, and ask them these 3 questions. You can say, you know, when am I at, when have I been at my best in your eyes? What shows up in the room when I do? And is there a topic or area of interest that you see me particularly adept at or light up around? And so that's the quickest way to access your true self is through tho— that, um, state of flow that comes from finding work and finding activities that allow you to express that zone of genius.

The second is through your values. Your values are the things that are most important to you. It's the things that like you hold most dear in your life. And a lot of people just stop at values, but I like to think about what are the feeling states in your body that are created after you've set those values. So if you have a value of family, for example, which might be one of your values, it's like, what's that? It's that state of like playfulness and presence that you get when you're having a tea party with your 4-year-olds.

Mm-hmm.

Or for me, it's like the, the giggles and the laughter that my son and I have at the playground, right? Like that, that turns a value into a state of being and how I want to, like, live that value. And then finally is understanding our, the neuroscience of our true self. So, um, our brains are constantly scanning to make sure that we have 3 needs met. And those 3 core needs are for connection, safety, and satisfaction, which I find so interesting.

Yeah.

Connection and safety makes sense, but satisfaction is fascinating. This is research from Dr. Rick Hanson. He wrote a book called Hardwiring Happiness. So our brains are constantly like, am I connected here? Am I safe here? And am I satisfied with what I have? And so we actually have a choice in terms of what we tell our brains, like in terms of how we tell our brains those needs are being met. And so one quick thing that you can do is just like take a pause and be like, you know, consider in what way are you safe, you know, in this moment looking around the room? In what way are you connected, connected to the people around you, connected to the relationships that you have, or maybe the mission of your work? And in what ways are you satisfied? And that satisfaction piece is the most kind of like subjective and elusive, but what gives you satisfaction even just like in this moment? And so it's more than a gratitude exercise, it's more than a mindfulness exercise, it's rewiring your brain to be like, I am safe, I'm connected, and I am satisfied. And that allows for the state of our true self to come forward.

What about the fear that if I take this protector part and I put her in the backseat and I let my true self drive, my business might fail, my revenue's gonna go down, you know, I'm not gonna be as successful because what has driven me, that profitable trauma response, is the thing that gives me energy, is the thing that keeps me pushing. What if I heal So hard that I am no longer a success.

Yeah, I love that. Healed so hard. I'm no longer—

I healed so hard, I'm a failure.

That's so good.

I healed so hard, I lost my ambition.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Healed so hard.

Um, first of all, I totally understand and I totally relate and I've been there. It reminds me of this time when I had just left Google and my, unfortunately, you know, my father had just passed away and we just did a big move to Australia at the time. Um, and so I no longer had my, uh, community. I no longer had, uh, you know, my, my father, and I was in like a whole new country, let alone place. You know what it's like to move cities, but moving countries, as you know, is like something totally different.

It's different.

And doing both at the same time was a lot. And so my success wound went into overdrive. It was like, in, you know, I'm just gonna fill all of my time with work and launching my business and getting this to scale as quickly as possible. And so that's what I did. I went to an endless amount of networking events. I, um, you know, uh, set the goal, the crazy goal for myself to like reach $500K in my first year. I like hired a team and as a result I spent, I think I spent, um, like $300,000 on, on things. And I think only like $50,000 of that was effective.

Mm-hmm.

Because I was spending in a way just to like patch up problems.

Yeah.

Like I wasn't spending in a very intentional way. Um, I was ignoring the grief that I was experiencing, and so I wasn't sleeping very well. Um, and there was a moment where I was like, maybe I should just go back to Google. So I say this just to share that when I was operating from that state, I was spending more money than I was making. I was not sleeping, and I got the worst review— reviews from clients ever than ever before, cuz it was clear in my energy and my presence that I wasn't there for them. I was there to make money. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

And people can feel that.

They can.

And so I really, I, I, I shut everything down for a bit. I ended up like doing a whole lot of soul searching. I went to therapy, I healed that, I learned about parts work, and then I relaunched from a state of greater regulation and intention. And my, my definition of success was no longer the revenue metric. It was much more about like, how can I connect with my clients, enjoy what I'm doing, and do it in a sustainable way? Because the ironic thing is that's when I was gonna be, that's when I got to 500K, right?

Yeah.

And so it's, it's a bit of a mind game and it's, it goes against everything our culture tells us about success. And that's really where the leap of faith comes in.

Another thing you say is that imposter syndrome and burnout actually aren't the root cause, they're a symptom. I'm so curious about this one because I know the women listening and myself included, We've burned out so many times and we think we learned the lesson and then it happens again and again and again. And I have seen that just trying to avoid burnout and sleeping well and eating well, that is not going to cure the burnout. It does run so much deeper than that. So can you talk about that?

Yes, definitely. So if we peel it all back, if my definition of success is purely based on outcomes other people's perceptions of me, how well I'm living up to the expectations set by a culture or set even by myself, then no wonder I'm going to try to control every last detail and make everything perfect. Or no wonder I'm gonna get into the room and feel like I don't belong there or I'm a fraud. Because when our outcomes are tied, what we do is tied to who we are, Mm-hmm. Then there is no possibility that we're not going to become perfectionists, and there's no possibility that we're not gonna feel like frauds in the meantime. So again, this, this is how, you know, there's so much literature around like burnout, perfectionism, imposter syndrome as being the thing to solve, when in reality it's that success wound. It's that like relaxing the protector self and bringing that true self forward that is the key to solving so many of the biggest kind of like women's career issues.

And so tapping a bit more into your story, was it hard to— tell me a little bit about being at Google and was it hard to make that decision to leave? Because by all accounts, you were a massive success there and what you were doing was driving big impact and that must have felt amazing to your ego. But deep down, I'm sure your true self knew this isn't actually my path. But those are some great golden handcuffs. My husband previously was at Medat. Very great golden handcuffs. Very difficult to leave when you're doing well and you're at the quote unquote peak of your career. Can you walk me through that?

Yeah. So I grew up in the Bay Area in the '90s when really that culture was all about like intellect, big exits. My friend's parents were moving from like these small little bungalows to like these huge mansions like overnight. There was so much money that came into this culture very, very quickly. And so I was imbued in my cultural upbringing that success equals, you know, hard work, sacrifice. If you can build it, you can do it. Like very kind of like intense masculine energy. And I learned lessons like that in my, in my school too. I went to this great all-girls school, but it was very intense. Like from the age I, you know, you enter at grade 6. So I was barely 11 and I was going to school with 18-year-olds. And next to my little locker where I would bring my lunchbox, it said Berkeley, Cal, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Yale. Like that, in my childhood brain, I was like, if I'm not that, I am a failure.

Yeah.

Like that is what my expectation is. And so whatever your version of that is, you know, for some of my immigrant, um, you know, uh, clients, people who have immigrated, I had this client who immigrated from Korea. She's like, success wasn't, you know, optional, it was survival.

Mm-hmm.

It wasn't about like the nice Ivy League, it was about like, we need to work hard in order to survive. Um, for others it was like, success equals options and freedom, um, and getting out of my small town or getting away from my alcoholic parent or something like that. So, we all have our story of what that means. Um, but I took that gold star chasing mentality into my first job at Google, where I felt like every answer to every email, Every time I raised my hand, there was a referendum on my worth as a person because that habit was so ingrained growing up. And so, by the time I was 24, I was managing $80 million in advertising revenue, and 3 things happened in succession that really caused me to change everything. The first is that my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer at the age of 60 and given 3 years to live. The second is that I was sexually harassed by my direct manager at Google. And I chose not to report it because I was up for promotion and I didn't wanna rock the boat or anger or embarrass or threaten, um, these people that had that sense of control over me.

Because without that promotion and without Google, I didn't know who I was. And then the third is that it became very evident that I had a problem with alcohol. And so, and the consequences of my drinking were becoming really dramatic. I was waking up places I didn't know where I was. I was even like doing drugs before going into the workplace. And I was very much in my work hard, play hard. What might look from the outside as like a typical 20-something, but from the inside it was like severe anxiety, depression, and alcoholism.

Yeah.

As a means of treating this.

Yeah.

And so I got to work on, you know, recovering, and I've been 10 years sober. And it really started to help make me realize, sure, I had a problem with alcohol, but I really had a problem with my addiction to success and external validation. And that's really what brought me to this low, low, low point. And so, um, it was slow, but really the paradigm shifted such that I could see that the kind of the, the structure of this organization, although I think it's a, genuinely, I think it's a great company, was not conducive to my true self. My protector self just kept getting activated and activated. My success wound got activated and activated. Um, and so it no longer became like, how am I gonna make this work financially? Or sure, okay, the golden handcuffs, which you know, there's always more stock on the table. That's how they keep you. But it was much more like, if I don't create a new, like, uh, business, career, relationship with success, I might die. That is really how it felt. And so my soul was really like calling me to leave. So it wasn't hard to leave because it felt so inevitable by the time that I was, you know, 3 years sober.

But I will say it took 3 years to get to that point.

Yeah.

And I very slowly, intentionally, Viewed Google as the venture fund for my business and was able to pivot very intentionally.

Were you nervous speaking out about the sexual harassment given it's such a big company, so well known? How has that process been?

It was really nerve-wracking writing about it because even my publisher was like, are you sure you want to do this? Um, they're like, can't you just call it your supervisor? Can we use a different word? I was like, no, this happened. If I do that, then it's, it's glossing over something that so many women have experienced. I ended up reporting it before I left because it was right around the time of Me Too. It was like 2018. I don't know if you remember, but there were—

Oh, I remember.

Okay.

Yeah.

There were all these walkouts at Google and Meta and like all this stuff that had come out in the company. And so that gave me, that gave me a voice to report it. There was an investigation, he was terminated, it was found to be sexual harassment. So, uh, not, that's not everyone's experience, but I was believed and there was action that was taken. And so I think if we're going to talk about like these events happening, we also have to share that sometimes the, you know, there are good things that can come from reporting it. And that was the case for me.

I'm glad to hear that was the case for you. Yeah, it is, it's very brave of, to speak about that happening at such a well-known company and putting that into your book and saying, well, actually, no, this is the truth. And I think it does, like the MeToo movement, it gives more women the courage to come forward. I think that movement was just one of the best things to come out of that era.

Yeah.

So that addiction to success, it's a tough one because it is the one addiction that really rewards you.

Yeah.

You know, an addiction to alcohol or drugs, which I'm not going to speak on as if I understand because I do not, but the effects of that are not positive. Correct. I do want— yeah, I do understand addiction to success very well. the results of that are very positive for the most part. How have you found navigating both addictions, the differences and the similarities?

You know, there's something that I learned in recovery rooms that has been a key to career fulfillment and something that I teach a lot. You know, I would leave the halls of Google and I'd scurry down— I worked in Manhattan, and there's this meet— there are like You throw a rock, you can hit an AA meeting in New York. Like everyone's an addict.

Yeah.

Same in LA. So I would like leave for my lunch meeting and I'd go to a, excuse me, I'd leave for lunch and I'd go to an AA meeting and they'd talk about not, they wouldn't talk about the alcohol, they wouldn't talk about the drugs, they wouldn't even talk about their drinking story, but they would talk about something called the spiritual malady, which is considered a God-shaped hole that all human beings have. that addicts just treat with drugs, alcohol, and substances in order to feel full or filled or satisfied or enough. But then I would leave those meetings and I would go back to Google and I'd look around to my team and to my colleagues and even just like to my managers and directors and the VPs. And I was like, God, all these people are addicts.

Yeah.

It's just wearing business casual. And so what I learned is that addiction is a spiritual malady. It's a God-shaped hole. It's a disconnection from our true power source, which I believe is, you know, divine in some way. If you wanna use it in psychological terms, it's a disconnection from our true self. But addicts need to, you know, fill with a power greater than themselves, a power greater than their ego. And so that is a lot of the work that I suggest ambitious women do, which is to have a whole new relationship with success and their self-worth that's based on something that's bigger than their ego. In an ideal world, is maybe something spiritual or meaningful. I call it an aligned ambition statement, which is an intrinsically driven statement of like, it is enough when, or I am successful when. I say that I no longer have the privilege of drinking. I no longer have the privilege of deciding what's enough or what's what's good. You asked me how my book launch is going. I have a definition of success for that that has nothing to do with my book sale numbers. And actually through my whole launch process, I didn't find out what my launch numbers were because that's like kryptonite for me.

Yeah.

It either would take the wind out of my sails or it would make my ego so big, I'm the next Brené Brown.

Yeah.

You know, like it would either be so big. So my definition of success is like my power comes from my being, not my doing. And as long as I'm showing up present and connected, and, um, then that's enough. Because the irony is that when I'm in that state, then everything tends to flow better from there.

Yeah, that was going to be my next question, is now that you are on the other side of it, and now that you are, you know, in recovery in the different ways, how are you managing growing a business, being an author? You know, we all know a book is a huge catalyst to business growth and opportunities and all of the things that we want to say yes to. And so I'm very curious how you are keeping your addiction to success and your success wound on a leash.

Mm-hmm.

In that arena.

Yeah. So again, so I take a look at, okay, which of the 5 behaviors am I falling into? And like any given day or week, again, I tend to be more on the like hider pleaser side of things. Yeah. Wanting to keep things like small and manageable. Whereas somebody else who might be like a grind, fall into the grinder or the work hard, play hard, they might easily like oversubscribe or overwhelm themselves. So that's why I love like an archetype-based or a type-based approach, because the medicine for me might not be the medicine for somebody else, right? Like my medicine is to slowly, intentionally take small steps outside my comfort zone. So, you know, for example, what that has looked like is, you know, it used to set— I used to send one like networking email or one pitch email and then have to hide under covers for the rest of the day. Like my nervous system was like, I'm gonna die. I'm going to die. Or like one social media posts. Like, see, I'm just like crawling out of my skin. Like, that's what it used to be like.

I get it.

Oh my gosh. And so, but that's now my comfort zone. Yeah, thank God.

Yeah.

And it doesn't send my nervous system into dysregulation. And so my work is to slowly, intentionally take small steps outside my comfort zone because I tend to be more of the hider. The grinder might need to say, okay, I need to only do like one new thing at a time, right? Like, I'm only launching a book. That's new. Like, I can keep the other things running, but I'm only gonna launch a book, and then that's gonna be launched, and then I'm gonna launch a course, and that's gonna be launched. And that allows me to do like one thing truly excellently instead of like 5 things all at the same time.

Yep.

Um, or a pleaser, you know, they might say yes to everything and everyone because they don't wanna, you know, they don't want a bad review or they don't want people talking about them behind their back, when in reality they need to say something along the lines of like, I can care for people without carrying them. That's big for coaches too, right? It's like how my client's doing is how I'm doing as a coach. One of my mentors said, like, you can't care about other people's opinions and do your job at the same time. Those two— you can't do those two things well at the same time. And that's been clarifying for me too.

And how are you balancing that with future goals of knowing that you want to grow your business? You have these goals. How are you keeping the checks and balances?

So, I often think about, you know, uh, so I will do like regular business planning and I recommend this all to my clients too. I'm like, okay, what are our goals, right? Like, what are our revenue goals? How are we gonna get there? I'm a huge fan of something called OKRs, which are objectives and key results.

Yeah.

It's a very well-known goal-setting system. Um, we did it at Google all the time, so I just bring it over for my clients and myself. I say, okay, what are our revenue goals? How are we gonna get there? You know, what are our operations goals? How are we gonna get there? What are our people and culture goals? How are we going to get there? And then, and we're going to work on that every single day. And then at the end of the day, what is my how? How am I going to get there? Not just in terms of key results and metrics, but what's, how am I going to show up every single day? And so, I'm constantly toggling between those two. I'm willing to let, you know, smaller goals go.

Yeah.

For the larger picture, for example. So I'm always asking myself, um, as a former work hard, play hard, what's the biggest bang for my buck? Like, what is the thing that I'm going to do today that's going to drive like so many, so much more of the results? So I'm a huge fan of setting goals, and I also have to hold both. I have to hold my aligned ambition there at the same time.

And do you have a practice for, you know, you were saying that, that God-sized hole. Do you have a practice for the spirituality or That specific thing that helps keep you connected and not chasing that hungry ghost and everything else?

Yeah, I mean, 2 things, certainly meditation and prayer, and doing that on a regular basis, making that a non-negotiable for myself, understanding what my non-negotiables are on a daily and weekly basis such that it's no longer— I love a non-negotiable. Maybe it's because it's the addict in me, but it's like, this is something that's like a bottom line behavior. It's not up for debate, right? In the same way that we're so good as business owners of being like, well, of course I'm going to respond to my client, or of course I'm going to like, you know, I don't know, update my CRM. But so often we lose those things when it comes to our own personal life. So meditation, prayer, and then something that I recommend to all of my clients that's also in the book is that visualization of like, I'm safe, I'm connected, I'm satisfied, because that really rewires our brain and our nervous system to ascribe to that. And then finally, the other beautiful kind of truism, I'd be curious about this in your experience, but I love to view work in my business as a spiritual practice too, right? Because, you know, God is everything or God is nothing.

Like it all has to be spiritual. There's not like just certain things that are and certain things that aren't.

Mm-hmm.

And so if how I show up, like it's almost like very Buddhist, it's like how I greet my client is how I greet, you know, everybody around me. I'm going to kind of like show up, you know, with full presence and focus. And, um, then the other thing is like, again, for my hider or for the grinder, it's like, how am I taking actions that are in alignment with my true self and what God would have me be in this business too? Does that resonate?

It does, yeah. And one thing you say is, am I working from my wounding or my wholeness? And I'm curious For the woman who is currently sitting at her desk, she's got a full launch calendar, she's got the goals, she's got so much going on. She hears that, it stops her in her tracks. How does she in real time check in with that and make that adjustment?

Yes, a couple things. So one, our ambition is like a lamp. It requires a power source in order to illuminate. And so we only have 2 sources of power. It's our our wounding or the wholeness of our true self. So for somebody who has, you know, a full calendar, a full launch calendar, um, first and foremost, ask yourself, like, you know, if left unchecked, like, how would I pursue this, right? Another way of asking yourself, like, what is my protector self saying I need to do in order to feel safe, certain, and in control? It's probably gonna be like, you know, work long hours, make sure— take, take on everything instead of outsourcing it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, making sure, like, taking every sales call instead of, you know, allowing other people to do it. Well, like, at least what I do, like controlling everything. So, okay, if that's how, you know, left unchecked, that's how I would, you know, approach this. Um, 2 things. One, how can I take the opposite action? So just that one question, how can I take the opposite action?

That's good.

Because it really is, you know, action that builds confidence, not the other way around. And so the confidence that you're going to feel in your business and in your life is going to come from saying things like, okay, When I am feeling, you know, the need to control everything, what's one thing that I can outsource to somebody else? If I am going to, you know, want to pull an all-nighter, can I actually shut my laptop at 10, even though it's going to feel like I'm going to freak out and I might wake up at 4? Can I do that? And can I take like, again, one intentional micro-risk like every single day? And that micro-risk again might be delegating or outsourcing or doing something like that, but that's what's going to create wholeness and confidence over time.

So good. Your book is so good. I devoured it. I really, really, really loved it. And it's not just, you know, so it's not just a diagnosis. It's very much throughout the whole book, very tactical, very practical. I think everyone listening to this podcast should grab it. So I'm going to put the link below. But you also have a coaching program too. So can you tell us about both?

Yes, definitely. Thank you. So Healing the Success Wound is the book, and it is about like the neuroscience, the psychology, and the spirituality behind what it takes to actually be fulfilled and end the cycle of never enough and that constant chasing. Um, it talks about the archetypes, but it gives like very clear steps to heal our success wound and ways that we can work in a way that honors our wholeness rather than our wounding. Um, and then my coaching program, um, I work one-on-one with people, but I also have a group program that I'm launching in a few months called Finally Fulfilled. And it's, you know, I love it because it's like, you know, really aligned women coming together talking about how can we create wholeness within our lives and our careers and work from the healthy part of our psyche more often than not. And after, you know, being at Google for so many years, like, I know I'm talking a lot about spirituality. I'm very practical and like business focused too. And so I love marrying those two up.

I think that what— that's what makes you different is being able to bring in both. Because the two, you need to integrate both. And if we are too black and white, it's all ambition or it's all inner work, something struggles. And that's not the end of it. I think when we're in the black and white, we're fully missing the integration. We're missing a step. We might think we're done, but we're really missing a step. And I think that's what you do so great, and that's what I really resonated with so much in the book. So I'll put all the links below in the show notes. But where can everyone find you and your website and things?

Yeah, um, you can find me at Brooke V. Taylor on Instagram, brooketaylorcoaching.com, and brooketaylorcoaching.com/book if you want the free resources in the book in a digital format.

Amazing. Thank you so much.

Thank you.