Transcript of The Shohei Live Experience, Plus the Maxey-V.J. Show, Surprise NBA Contenders, and Early Trends With Tim Legler

The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fandil Sportsbook. We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where it is the last week of Halloween. So of course, we had to do a horror movie. We've done Halloween One, we've done Halloween Four. Naturally, we had to do Halloween Two, which is probably the funiest of all the Halloween movies. It was not intended to be funny, but it's belatedly funny. Me and Chris Ryan and Van Lathen broke down everything you'd ever want to know about this movie and why it is still held up in some pretty crazy ways. You can get that on Spotify. You can get that wherever you get your podcast. So go check it out. I'm going to have Tim Legler on here in a second to talk about everything that's going on in the NBA through one week. He's been lucky enough to sit courtside for a couple of the games. There's been a lot of story lines in play, and he's coming up after the break and after Pearl Jam, and after I tell the story about going to Game 3, Dodgers, Blue Jays World Series last night, which turned into some life experience.

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All right, so I went to game three of the Dodgers Blues Jays World Series last night in Dodgers Stadium. And by the time you hear this, game four might be about to happen. It might be happening. It might have already happened. Not the point. I think I went to one of the best World Series games, at least of this century, and maybe the last 50 years, and God only knows. We always do this with new stuff. We forget about some of the classics over the years. There's been a lot of awesome World Series games. There's nothing like being at the World Series, the theater of it, Nobody leaves ever, especially in a close game. It's one of those baseball. Nobody's thinking about, let's beat the traffic. People are just like, we're here, we're staying here. And the game itself, there are all these crazy defensive plays. It's just like a This is what you want to see when you're at the highest level of whatever sport. You want to see real artistry, just awesome defensive plays. Just everybody, even Vlad had a really great slide somewhere. I can't even... The whole game blends together. But Just some really good baseball across the board.

But then there's this Ohtani thing that is its own regular season subplot. This generation's Babe Ruth. It's just the thing that happened. It took way too long to get him on one of the signature teams to get him in some of these playoff moments. He finally gets to the Dodgers. We finally get to see him raise his level to match some of these magical moments. In the last round, he had one of the great individual games in the history of the sport. So then in this game, he's DH-ing. Every time he comes up, if it's an on time evening, nobody gets up. Nobody's going to like, I'm going to go run to pee. I'm going to go get drink really quick. It's just people in their seats waiting for him to bet. And he cranks this double. It felt like one of those games where momentum was going to be against the Dodgers, but he cranks just this hard line drive double in the gap, gets to second, does this whole thing, comes up the next time, hits a home run. And then the next time he came up, and I had awesome seats, I was right there behind home plate.

And I don't usually videotape stuff when I'm at games unless it's something It's like the last play of a basketball game. I'll do it where I'm watching and I'll hold the camera like this. But Ohtani came up, and I think everybody in the stadium actually thought he was going to hit home run, which I don't really remember ever experiencing that feeling before where there's a collective anticipation of, oh, yeah, he's probably going to hit a home run. Even Ortiz, who had some red hot moments in '04, who in 2013 team got so hot that the Cardinals just started walking him. I've never seen anything like this where it's not surprising that he's going to hit a home run. The only time I can ever think of other than a couple of Ortiz's hot streaks, was Barry Bonds during the height of when he just turned into a superhero for maybe some chemical reasons. But it just felt like every time he was up, he was going to hit the ball 600 feet or get a walk. And Ohtani is doing this now. I barely have the phone and I'm about to hit record and it's a new iPhone where it's like you could zoom back to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

And I put it on two and it's too close. I'm like, oh, shit, that's too close. I'll put it on one and I look up and the pitch comes and it just cranks another one. And people just were losing their minds. Nobody can believe what's happening with this. This is Tiger in the late '90s just destroying Augusta. This is Jordan shrugging at Magic in the '92 Finals. This last level of somebody being so much better at the sport than everybody else they're playing with that nobody knows how to even wrap their heads around what's happening. This is braided being down 23 in the Super Bowl and just like, I'm scoring every time from now on, and he just does it. And at some point you're watching going, this is never seen a sport played like this. Ohtani gets so he is the homer. People lose their minds. And then every time up after that, they walk him intentionally. And I'm watching. The next time he comes up, you can see the dugout. I'm watching the manager. I'm like, Don't walk him. Come on. You got to pitch to him. Everyone wants to just pitch to him.

And he does, the next time he comes up, you can see the dugout. I'm watching the manager. I'm like, Don't walk him. Come on. You got to pitch to him. Everyone wants to just pitch to him. And he does, the next time he comes up, intentional walk thing. They walk Ohtani, everybody goes, Boo. But it turns out it's the right move because if he's maybe going to hit home run every time he's up or hit a double or do something terrible and the other team is psyched up I'm like, All right, just put them on. Let's pitch to Muki Betts and Freddie Freeman. So anyway, it goes from being this awesome World Series Ohtani, yet again, putting his stamp down as the signature guy of this generation on top of all these great players. It's like, whoa, this is a World Series classic. And then the game just doesn't end. And it's getting colder. It dips from '68 to '63. But in Dodger Stadium, it's a little wind tunneling. So And everybody is not dressed properly except for the people that go to every game. So it's getting colder. The balls are starting to die.

The Blue Jays take out. Springer gets hurt. It looked like he hurt his oblique or something. They take out Kirk after the 12th. Bachet comes out at some point. All of a sudden, the Blue Jays look like they're an expansion team with Vlad Guerrero. So you figured they're basically never going to score unless the Dodgers are just walking people. And then on the flip side, the Dodgers, they're walking, they're pitching around Ohtani and Nobody else can basically either hit a home run or really do anything. And it's zeros after zeros. When you go to Dodger Stadium, I know, I certainly, when I lived back east and you'd watch the Dodger fans, you're like, they saw They leave after the seventh evening. It can't be overemphasized how hard it is to get in and out of Dodger Stadium. It's basically going to a football, to an NFL game that's an hour and a half away, even if you live 20 minutes from there. You can't get in, but you especially can't get out. And everyone who's at any Dodger game, you're always doing the calculus of, well, we could stay for the night, but that's another hour and a half in the parking lot.

And I'm not kidding, it's an hour and a half. So people are doing that calculus, but this is a World Series. You Can't leave. So people are there and everybody's doing the math. And I was thankful and grateful to be with people who were like, there's no way we're leaving. This is the World Series. So we're just like, you just give into the game. And the game's going and it's going And now it's like six hours, even with the pitch clock. And it's heading toward midnight. And you're just doing the math in your head like, wow, I might not be home till 3: 00 in the morning, but this is worth it. This is one of the great games. We're looking up, we're checking out like, oh, my God, if we get to the, I think it was the 14th or 15th inning, this will be the second longest World Series game ever. And you start putting that in context. They've been playing the World Series since... I don't even remember when it started. It was 1900, 1903. I used to know this stuff. Now I'm old. And you just think of all the different World Series games and you start thinking of the history.

It's like, well, I get to tell people I went to this. But at the same time you're going, but what's going to happen? Am I going to die in my seat? Do they need to start making food again? Do they need to reopen the refreshment stands, all that stuff? At the end of the Between the bottom and the top of the 14th thinning, they redid take me out to the ball game, the seventh thinning stretch. They just did it again. It was a double stretch. I've never been to a game where that happened. The longest game I've ever been to was in 2004, game 4, game 5. One of those games was 14 innings. I think it was game 5. I can't remember. Those two games just blend together in the 26 innings. But that one, there was no pitch clock, and that was my favorite team. I wrote one of my favorite things I ever wrote after that game. When it's your favorite team, it turns at another level. You're just basically getting a root canal for seven hours and you're having a heart attack the entire time. I bet on the Dodgers, but I didn't obviously care about who won in the same way I would have if it was a Red Sox game.

But I had Dodger fans, friends at this game that it was like they were operated on. And you don't know it's going to end. The stress at some point, I don't know how long human beings can be stressed out for. It certainly happens in hockey where you have, and I mean, the most famous one for me when I really loved hockey was the triple OT game that Peter Kalima beat the Bruins in game 1, 1990. But in hockey, that's really hard, but at least you have a break. It's a root canal for the entire overtime period. And every time something happens, you're convinced it's going to be the worst thing ever, the best thing ever. And it's just this roller coaster. But then it stops and you get to like, all right, I have 20 minutes now to regroup mentally. I can get a drink. I can go to the bathroom. In baseball, it's like three minutes. We're doing another half-inning, guys. Let's go. And Toronto is batting at the top. So you're trying to just get through that ending. And then the Dodgers comes up as well. Maybe it happens here, but nobody can get a hit on the Dodgers.

Everything's dying in the warning track. And there came a point where we were like, How long could we make it? Because I was just not leaving. But it was like, Could there be a triple seventh-inning stretch? Could this get to the 22nd At one point, well, I'd be telling my great grandkids that I went to this game. I probably won't be alive for great grandkids, but hypothetically. Anyway, everyone is just in disbelief by the 15th heading. And then it gets to the 18th and we're looking it up and it's like, wow, this is the longest World Series game that's ever happened. And I know from experience with the 2018 World Series, when a game goes this long, you start thinking, whoever wins this game is going to win the World Series. When the Red Sox lost the previous longest game ever in the 18th morning, which was Nathan Avalde, he should have been on the Red Sox for the rest of his life after he pitched in that game. But when they lost that game, I just assumed they were going to win the World Series, lose the World Series. It felt like it was three losses.

So I knew from that experience, because the Red Sox came back and won the World Series over the next couple of games, I knew that it wasn't life or death. But all the Dodger fans that are around me, I think you start to feel it a little bit because they were going to run out of pitchers and they couldn't have pitched Ohtani because you can't really fuck with him. He's the DH. He's going to pitch the next game. And so at some point, we're all talking about, are they going to bring in? Who would they bring in if they had to bring in a position player? It would be Muki Betz. Muki Betz, who's one of the great athletes in the history of the sport, who's just playing lights out shortstop yesterday, even though he's second Mace, center field, right field, wherever he plays, he's one of the best in his position. Yesterday, he's just playing awesome shortstop. But we were wondering, maybe it's Moukhi. Maybe he's the one who pitches. All of it was amazing. The one thing that we were pretty certain of was the only guy who could beat the Dodgers was Vlad Guerrero, who's absolutely terrifying.

And we were sitting really close to where the Blue Jays would go in the on deck. And you're just watching this, dude. He's just this mammoth, mammoth guy. He's turning around. He's engaging with the crowd. He's so fucking confident. And there was this unbelievable moment in the game. They bring in Kershaw. They're running out of pitchers. Kershaw has this sadly storied playoff history with the Dodgers, where he's one of the most beloved Dodgers of all time, but has one of the... It's basically the Karl Malone of baseball. And the Dodger fans are very sensitive of it. They love him, but they also don't trust him at all. So he comes into this game to pitch to the lefty. I don't even remember where it is. It was like the 12, 13. At some point, you can't even keep track of what ending it was. They can't even tell you in the scoreboard what it is. You have to squint to see the numbers. And Kershaw comes in. And all the Dodger fans are like, not like this. Not like this. This can't be yet another terrible Kershaw moment. He can't be the one that loses this.

So he comes in and you could feel how tense it was. You could just feel it. Did It's just a different level. And I've been for Boston teams in games like that where somebody comes in or you're relying on somebody that you don't trust. And it's the worst fucking feeling in the world. We had it in one of those, I think it was game, it's either game four or game five. Again, those two blend together for me. I don't remember which one is which anymore. But Wakefield came in. I think it was the 14-inning game. Wakefield came in and he's throwing a knuckleball to Veratech, who didn't normally catch the knuckleball. And somebody's on third base. And Wakefield was the guy who had given up the Boonhomer the year before, which was just not his fault. And nobody even really blamed him as the goat because he was so awesome that year, the goat of the game. And how nervous people were for every Wakefield knuckleball, not knowing if Veritech was going to be able to stop it. It was just a feeling in the park that I'll never forget. The other one was when Curtis Laskana came in.

I think that was game four, who was the last pitcher in the team, and we actually needed him to get out. And it's just like a different level. So anyway, the Dodger fans had this, but it was on a whole other level because it's Kershaw, and they have all this baggage, and they just love the guy so much, and nobody wants him to be the go to the game. So he comes in and his first pitch is a ball and it goes like, silent in the crowd. And everybody's thinking like, oh, no. I can't describe how dead it got for a second and a half. Where everyone's just doing the math of like, oh, my God, if he walks in the winning run and it's Kershaw, this actually could be such a bummer that it'll swing this series. Anyway, it gets to 2-1, and then he miraculously gets out of it. And the relief When that came out, it was almost like more relief than when Freddie actually hit the walk-off. So we're watching it. We're watching, we're watching. And every time the Dodgers are up, I'm with my friends and we're going, if there's a walk-off.

If it seems like a walk-off, we're up the steps, we're out. Because then it turns in an escape from New York. You have to get out as fast as you can in the parking lot. Every 10 seconds you can get out of the parking lot before other people is like another five minutes. And if you don't get out in time, you're just there for two hours. So we're like, all right, we have our plan. If there's a walk off, we're up the stairs even before it lands. And the catch was the home runs, you just couldn't read them because it seemed like the Blue Jays had had one. It seemed like Will Smith had had one, and they would just die in the morning check. So Freddie cranks one on the 18th. And we're like, oh, that's good. And the crowd's going nuts, and it's carrying, carrying. As As it's landing, we're flying out of there because it's an escape from New York, and it still took over an hour to get home. We thought we played it perfectly. We didn't. Got home, 1: 30. This is why I have these big bags under my eyes.

I couldn't sleep after it because it was just too much fun. I love sports. I don't care who's playing in a World Series game, the atmosphere of it, and how locked in everybody is, and how nobody leaves, and every pitch and every moment matters. And you just go to games where you want to see there's something special like Ohtani, or you want to see the most dramatic game possible. And somehow last night had both. And it was just awesome. I have no idea who's going to win this World Series, especially if Springer is going to be hurt. I think that's really... That should be enough for the Dodgers. And they may never pitch to Ohtani again. By the time you hear this, they may have walked Ohtani five straight times. They won last year. They won a real World Series last unlike the stupid strike one, unlike the 1981 lockout. Last year was a real one. This one going back to back would be incredible, obviously. But the Ohtani thing puts in another stratosphere. What's happening with him, and it's not just in LA, I think it's everywhere. It just doesn't matter the sport when this happens.

When there's somebody who... People who don't care about sports, people like my mom know what's going on, that's the last of sport can get to. This is what the NBA is so desperately searching for right now. They have all these great stars. They don't have the Ohtani. That's just the water-cooler guy, the guy that you have to go out of your way to see, the guy who has all these magical moments inside him, and you don't know when they're going to happen. Wembeya might be that guy for the NBA. There's real signs now that this could happen where it's just something we've never seen before. The Ohtani thing, something we've never seen before. Somebody who has a flair for the dramatic, who's just really, really, really, really special. And it's just a shame that it took him this long to get to the Dodgers and to these big moments. But I was so glad I went last night. I'm in my mid-fifties. I watched a lot of media members when I was growing up that seem like they stopped caring about sports in the same way and got more negative, and maybe they'd seen too many games, had too many interactions with players.

I still love this stuff. And you go to a game like that and it's worth it. It's worth not knowing how long it's going to take to get there. It's worth not knowing how long you're going to be in a parking lot waiting to get home, especially having cool seats for a game like that. Really, really special. I've talked about Dodger Stadium before. I still think Fenway and Wrigley are the two ballparks that stand out. And Dodger Stadium, parking aside, is probably the third for the moments like that, especially because they've had cool moments in that stadium Stadium, and they do a really good job of bringing the old guys back, which the Celtics do. Some franchises do it. You really have to have the history and you have to have the great players in your background to be able to do it. But like, Oral Hirschheiser was sitting near us. Kofax was right on the other side. You look around, it's like just Steve Garvie was signing autographs. Everybody who meant something to the Dodgers, they figured out a way to get in the ballpark somewhere around. And you really feel the history when you see these games, not to mention Magic Johnson's there.

I mean, obviously, the LA celebrities that are there. But they've done a really good job, I think, of embracing the past, leaning into the stadium, leaning into all the great players they've had over the years. And it really does feel like a special franchise, which I've always felt the Celtics are like that, too. It's one of the reasons we wanted to do Celtic City. It's like the era, the players, and then how you keep protecting the legacy, all that stuff. I think the Dodgers do a good job with that. The Yankees do a good job with that. I got to hand it to them. There's some teams that understand it and do it correctly, and I do think the Dodgers are one of them. But last time, I think just an unforgettable, unforgettable sporting event, and I will always remember it. So I'm glad I went. I came home. I was so wired. I was watching a cable at 2: 00 in the morning sitting on this stupid massage chair we have, trying to crank out my back. My wife sent me my Life 360. We have Life 360 for our family. And she sent me a screenshot.

I think it was the top of the 18th, and it just said I was in the exact same spot at Dodger Stadium for eight hours. And I'm just going to screen save that and put it in my iPhone album because there will never be another game like that. So awesome World Series. I hope the rest of the games are as good as that one. I want to tell the story. And it was an honor to be in the photo of the second home run. They had this really cool photo of the O'Tani bat flip, and you could see us in the background. I'm like, That's great. I'm framing that. Anyway, we We are going to take a break. We're going to come back with the one and only Tim Legler, and we are going to talk basketball. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fandil. Fandil is with you for every tip off as we dive into this awesome basketball season. Every day to start the season, choose your reward. You can play it safe. Go for it. Feel bold. That's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control. So what better are you?

I think there's some really good NBA future opportunities right now, even one week into the season. Brooklyn, 17 and a half wins under. I don't see how they get to 15 wins. The Bucks are still minus, 104 to win 45 plus games. Okc is almost 5 to 1 to win 70. San Antonio to win 50 plus games, plus 164. And sadly, the Celtics are plus 116 to miss the playoff on Fandil, and that might actually be a good bet. Don't do that because I told you, just do it because it's smart. However you play, Fandil is giving you the power to choose your reward and own your game every single day to start the NBA season. Head to fandil. Com/bs to make your choice. Must be 21 plus present, select states are 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Opt-in required. Rewards are non-majorable. Restrictions apply, including bonus and token expiration leg requirements and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook. Fandil. Com. Game problem, call 1-800. Gamble or visit rg-help. Com. Call 1-888-789-777. Com. Or visit ccpg. Org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Little Caesars, the official pizza sponsor of the NFL.

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Prices may vary. Delivery available from participating locations with online orders only. Copyright 2025 LCE, Incorporated. All right, Tim Legler is here. We're taping this on early Tuesday afternoon Pacific Time. He's going to be popping on The Ringer all through the year on my podcast and on Zack Lo's podcast. Couldn't be more excited to have you board. And congratulations on being on the top ESPN team. I feel like we've already seen you a lot.

Yeah, I appreciate it, man. Yeah, we have. It was a big opening week for all of us. We got new partners in this, too. So it was a big opening, splashy week for the NBC, Amazon, us, ABC, everybody. So it's off to a great start. Really excited to be part of that crew. And we got two under our belts now with Mike and myself. And we're happy with the start we've had. And we know it's just going to get better and better.

Well, people don't realize what a mean guy Mike Breen is. Just mean to everybody, just snaps at people. He's just really an awful person.

Is there a He's the guy in the business, Bill. Is there a better guy in the business than Mike Breen?

He really is. He might be in the running for most liked person who's in sports media, which sports media could be a hornet's nest. But people agree I have very few things, but one of them is I like Mike Mike Breen. All right, so I want to start here. I sent you a bunch of things I want to talk about, but I did not send you this one. I think we have the most talent right now, not only from a top player standpoint, but maybe even a top 35 to 40 standpoint. There's so much talent everywhere. And the only time I can think of that was like this, was that early '90s, which is ironically when you were in the league, where we just had all these future Hall of Famers. We had all these great in their primes. You could see with the dream team, but you could also see it in the playoffs. You can see it in the All-MBA stuff. It was just a unicorn time. And it feels like we're coming back because this WMDBE level Those guys, the under-25 guys are now ascending, but we still have the other group of guys.

And then we even have some of the old guys like Curry. I can't fathom how much talent we have. And I'm flipping around League Pass, and it's Charlotte, I like their team. They're going to win 25 games. And you look at the talent, you're like, I like these guys. Have you noticed that even from the games you're going to? Like, holy shit.

Yeah, because can you ever remember a week of the start of a season that had as many huge scoring outbursts as we just had over the past week? And that includes from a team standpoint, some of the numbers these teams are putting up, but mostly from an individual standpoint. We've had some unlikely guys have 50 point games already in the first week. We've had some other guys like, Okay, our first game. We get Shea Gildas-Alexander. He goes for 55. You're like, Okay, that's not shocking. But you get Austin Reeves dropping 50. Lory Markinen has had a 50-point game. Aaron Gordon had a 50-point game. So the shot-making capabilities across the league, the number of guys that have a lot of high-level shot-making in their bag, whether it's off to dribble deep or mid-range or whatever it may be, there's just more dudes that can check into a game and make shots at a high level than we've ever had in this league. And when you combine that with what these teams are all trying to replicate with pace and style and spacing and the whistles, which we're going to talk about, I think, at some point today.

When you add all that up, you get what you're looking at now, which is the league is tailor-made for guys that want to add these types of things to their game and ability to shoot the ball with escapability off the dribble first to create their own, the step back, the side step three, all of these different shots they can go. The runners and floaters and the array of shot making that guys can make now on the move toward the rim. There's just more guys on the court that can do all of these things. And yeah, it's been pretty eye-opening. It's been like this for a couple of years for me, but I don't recall ever in the 25 years I've been at ESPN, this is my 25th year, seeing a week at the start of the season like this in terms of these box scores that are just absolutely popping off the page.

Yeah, I was trying to think of reasons other than sometimes talent just comes in waves, which certainly happened your first few years in the NBA. We just had a lot of talent. There might be 40 reasons for that. There might be no reasons. It might just be luck. But I do feel like when you think about how the league shifted, basically right around when Curry started to hit with the Warriors and we started spacing and the whole concept of a big man started to change. We had all this trial and error for 12 years, and now the league plays the way it plays. But then you also have all these people coming in through AAU high school, college that are trained to play that way. And I watched somebody like VJ Edgecombe coming in who I really liked in the draft. I thought this guy has a chance to be a star. He'll come in. He'll be an awesome athlete. He'll be a defender. He'll be athletic. He'll be a work in progress. It's going to take some time. He was running offense for Philly last night. I watched the second half of that game.

He was running their offense when Maxie was out. And it has a level of sophistication at age 20 that I wasn't prepared for. So do you think that's a piece of that, that they're just used to how the game goes at this level and they just come in and can fit in, or are these guys just freaks?

No, I think it is a lot of that. I think they're sitting there watching the league, some of these guys, and they're seeing this league is now tailor-made for the opportunity That having that offense represents, and they're jumping all over it. Now, what you don't know, when these guys come to the league, I also loved Edgecombe, and I thought it was really almost divine intervention for Philly. Look, I like Ace Bailey, too. Ace Bailey might turn into a really high-level NBA player. But it's just funny how that played out for Philly once Ace Bailey is like, Well, I'm not even going to come interview. To me, if I'm running a team, that takes you out of the equation for me. If I hear that as right, and I think that led to it now, it's like, Well, then it's definitely going to be Edgecom. And obviously, these people in Philadelphia know a lot of these are my knucklehead friends who love the Sixers, and they're losing their minds over this guy. You left out the part, they tried to trade it.

They tried to trade it for a month and a half, and they, All right, we'll take Edgecom, and now he's awesome.

That's a great point. So in a lot of ways, it's almost like they were forced into a corner with this pick and him being at that point, the obvious guy to pick, and they picked him. So you see I love the talent. I love the athletic ability and the strength. But what you don't know until you see a guy take the court in the NBA is what's his confidence level like from day one? Some guys just hit the ground running with that. They don't have that overly deferential gene, and they just go and they just play. That's what Edgecom is doing. So everything is funneling in that direction for him right off the bat. The guy's sensational 34 in his first game. And he really hasn't led up since. Other guys, they have all the talent, the size, the skill, whatever it may be, and the situations there, they're getting minutes. But there's something about the wiring that takes a little longer for them to understand and recognize it's okay for me to be an alpha right now on this trip, on this possession in the open floor. Just go and not think. Let muscle memory take over and just be what you are as a natural athlete and player.

Some guys get there earlier. And Edgecombe, he got there immediately. As soon as he walked out of the tunnel the first night in Boston.

Yeah, that's comfort is... So think about comfortability and confidence. And when a guy can come in and have both of those things, would Usually, it doesn't happen for rookies. We have multiple guys who are like that this year in this rookie class. Dylan Harper is like that now. I don't know where he's going to be, but he knows how to already play with them without the ball. Edge comes like that. Kniple It's just the ideal third or fourth guy for any team. He can basically do whatever. And you just go down the line. And then Flag, who I want to talk about later because I really have an issue with what they're doing with him. But Flag is another one who's really comfortable. Flag, I think the Sunday game, at one point, he did a Tatum put fake forward, step back three. And I was like, you're 18. What the fuck was that? You should have that in year five. You're shooting that now in a third quarter? I couldn't believe it.

I first laid eyes on Cooper Flag when he was about 14, 15 years old, and I started telling everybody I knew about him then. I'm just like, just wait till this guy's ready for the draft. At that point, of course, you don't even know where he's going to go to school. You don't know any of that. I just know that when you see, what jumped out to me immediately was this dude has a competitive toughness about him. Like an edge. And he was a target every time he walked onto a court at the AAU level. Every team was looking at him. They were talking to him, starting with the opening jump ball circle. He's got somebody in his ear telling him what they're not going to let him do to them tonight. And he's been hearing that since he was literally 12, 13, 14 years old. And some guys can handle all that, some guys can't. He clearly could. Then it became a matter of, he's got the athletic ability, the size, the toughness. He loves playing defense. That jumped out to me, man. He's got a lot of want to. Then you just don't know how much will he add between now and the time he's 18, 19 and he's ready for the draft.

And he added a hell of a lot. Now, I think his shooting is going to be streaky this year. He's going to contribute to them in winning ways. I think a lot of nights without necessarily having big scoring nights, the shooting is going to be up and down and all over the place. But what's not going to be up and down is that guy's desire of competitiveness and winning attitude about how he approaches the game. That, to me, is what stood out more than anything else. So the confidence level is there, but it doesn't happen like the way it's happening for Edgecom very often. This fast where you get into that rhythm and everything's going in early. So Cooper Flagg will be fine. I think he's a can't miss, but obviously, he hasn't had a great start offensively here.

Well, I would say 90% of that is they're asking him to be the point as a part of the team and run fast breaks. I just think that should have been a year, four, year, five thing. I know they don't have Kyrie back. It almost makes me wonder if Kyrie is coming back this year and they're like, We're just going to take our lumps with this until he figures it out, and then we can play Dilo on the side here for 25 minutes a game, but we need these other 20 minutes from flag. It's a team that I was really bullish on them because of the defense and the size, and I just think it's going to be choppy, but I'm not giving up on it. But the one thing with him, his ability to rebound, bring the ball down and find somebody, either a cutter or three on two fast break. He's doing stuff that is pretty high level. But then you watch some of the pressing stuff that's happening, which was one of the things I wanted. We could talk about it now. I'm shocked by the... And this started last year. Now it's really happening this year is teams pressing and teams trying to put miles on the best players of other teams.

The Celtics did it in the Pistons game where they had Hugo González just bug the shit out of Cade. Just follow him around everywhere, really put the miles on him. And it's something I feel like Indiana started, and now more teams are doing it. And they're using deeper benches and just trying to put miles on the other team. That's one trend. Are there other trends you're seeing other than that one?

Well, I want to talk about that one for a second because you're right. And a number of coaches that I talk to, and I got a chance to talk to all of these guys at the coaches meetings, a couple of weeks before the season started. And now I've had two games, so there's four more coaches you could talk to about these things. And the metrics pointed out, the data shows them that that stuff matters in terms of attrition over the course of a game and pressuring up on these guys, particularly guys that are constantly initiating and always have the ball first in the backcourt. It's going to affect guys less if you have a secondary ball handler that could do that at a high level, or if just these are some guys that are really high-level players, They'll run up the floor without the ball a good amount throughout the game, and then they get into action from there. But there are guys in this league, if they're on the floor, it's almost always in their hands coming up to court, particularly after made baskets or dead balls. They're seeing on film and just the numbers bear out, it matters over the course of a game, and it wears guys down a little bit.

In the case of Cooper Flag, the thing that I really loved about him when I saw him in Vegas was, and I know he wasn't playing against NBA rotational players for the most part, but he was able to handle the ball against smaller, much quicker players who could beat him to the spot. But he didn't have any problem manipulating the ball off the floor against that. And That really stood out to me. Like, man, I didn't know he had that command of his handle where he was not affected by the pressure of some of these guys that were in that 6, 4, 6, 5 range that were really quick picking him up. Didn't seem to faz him at all. I agree with you, Bill. I think it's too much to ask out of the gate for a guy that's trying to find his confidence as a player at this league. A lot of pressure, a lot of eyes on them to now say, Okay, can you also please help facilitate and coordinate and orchestrate where guys are going to be and get guys shots? It's not that natural to them. There's a big difference between being a ball handling forward and a point guard.

Those are two entirely different things. When I got the Angela Russell, I said, Hey, this is a perfect pickup to buy time until Kyrie comes back. D'angelo Russell has played some high-level basketball in this league at the point guard position. Let him play point. Let Cooper Flagg have some situations where he gets to handle in ball screen and handle in transition if he takes off the glass himself. That's a weapon for your team. That should not be, to me, his focal point on walking up situations. I just think it's too much to put on his plate right out of the gate when you've got a guy like Dianesla Russell sitting there.

Yeah, and I think they'll move away for it, maybe run more of the half-court with them. But I watched the self-tax put this on Tatum slowly over the course of five, six years, right? Where he... And last year, he was really good as a point forward of finding people and creating stuff. There's still a last level, though, that I just don't think you could ever ask for somebody like that who's not a natural point guard. There's still true point guards. They're taking care of everybody. They're thinking about everybody. They're like, oh, Anthony Davis hasn't had a shot in four minutes. I got to get him one or he's going to stop playing defense. There's these little things that you just can't expect somebody like Flag to know, right?

Let me sum it up this way. That's a great point. And here is the difference psychologically. And I actually talked about this, and the guy that I used as an example of somebody that can do it at a really high level who I love watching play was Alonso Ball, who joined the Cavs this year, right? And here's the difference. Guys like that that have been doing that their whole life. When there's one eye in front of them, or it's two-man action, they're running. Either way, they're already scanning and anticipating the next reaction of the next defender. And they know what these chain of events are going to lead to, based on what I do, this is what should be open. And there's multiple reads taking place. And all it's about is the next defender that's not in the initial action. Whether that's the ISO guy in front of him, he's looking at the second defender defender that's going to be the help guy. If it's a two-man game he's running, he's thinking about the next defender that's going to get into the paint or whatever they're going to do based on the action they're going to run, and he's thinking about making a play for that guy on his team.

Scorers that can make plays, it's a totally different thing. Their playmaking comes after their own scoring has been exhausted. Those options have been exhausted. Now, as an afterthought, okay, there's a play to be made. Look, some of those guys do it really high level. They can give you those 35. 8 assist nights. But the assists come after they have hunted for themselves. And now something organically happens for a guy. That's different than thinking the game the way that I describe, when you're already manipulating the pieces defensive with your eyes and you're understanding what the next thing is going to be, and that's the chain of events is going to dictate where I throw the ball. That's a totally different level of thinking, of facilitating and running a team that most scorers at a high level at the NBA level aren't going to really do it at the level of the guys I'm talking about that have played that position their entire life.

Yeah, at some point it's a seesaw. And when you have the ball, the seesaw is either going to be like, I'm more of a scorer. I'm more of a creator for other people, right? My favorite players were always the ones that were always thinking about creating for everybody else and then could shift the seesaw if they actually needed to score. Jokuj being the ultimate example of that, but Bird of Magic. We've had a lot of those. I'm glad you brought up Lanzo, though. Kim on the Cavs is a really intriguing wrinkle for this season that I didn't... You never know if he's going to be healthy. They don't have their full team. It's going to be a while. But I just think he's one of the most... If he's one of your nine guys, he's so additive when he's out there. He's just so much fun to play with. And the better... I don't think he's ever been on a team that had players like this. And it just Just made me think like, man, when they get everybody back, what lineups are they going to use? Are they ever going to have a drop off when you have Garland and Mitchell, but then you have Alonso as this third guard?

I actually think that team has a higher ceiling than maybe I thought. Now, who knows if he could stay healthy. But did you notice that?

He definitely is somebody that I paid attention to the acquisition, and I've always been a huge fan of his. Really, really cheered for him, making his way all the way back from what he went through. Most guys wouldn't have had the will to do it. So I pulled for guys like that because he loves it. And now you see the acquisition, and they lost Ty Jerome. We had a very good year for them, and they bring Alonso Ball. And I'm like, Okay, that's interesting. Let's see how that looks. And then I talked to Kenny Atkinson a few weeks ago, and just talking about their team, their season, and whatever. And what he was saying about Alonso Ball and what he was seeing led me to think going into that first game we called Cavs-Nicks, that now I was really anticipating his impact. And it's so obvious when he got on a court. Yeah. And Bill, here's how I describe him. And there's not that many guys I would describe in this way. His sole reason for existing on a basketball court is to make guys better on his own team. And man, as a shooter, did I love I love when I played with guys that even tried to think that way.

It's just so fun to play with them because it's really like he's going to take his shots and he's going to read defenses and he'll do his thing. But it's really all about if you're willing to expand energy offensively with running and cutting and movement, then he is going to absolutely make your life easier and make everything easier for you as a scorer. And I saw it even that night. His advance passes are on that level with a Jason Kidd, a Steve Nash, where the ball is thrown on a rope up the sideline 30 or 40 feet. And it's a subtle thing you don't notice, but it puts so much pressure on the defense running back that it leads to awesome secondary offense. Alonso is so good at the advanced pass. And I think you're right. This is going to be one of those role player acquisitions that we're going to be talking about having a major impact all season long. I think Al Horford is another one of those in Golden State. Those are going to be two examples of guys that join teams and systems. I know. I didn't mean to put you in a bad mood with the Horford talk.

Too soon, Ledler. Too soon for us.

I know. I hear you, man. Especially with the start they've had.

Especially when you see the Celtics big Guys, we'll take a break and I have a whole bunch of stuff to throw you. And now it's time for Don't Settle, a new segment presented by State Farm. You may think that insurance is all the same, but let me tell you something. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. Don't settle for just any insurance when they're a State Farm. It's a little like the Patriots right now. The Patriots are six and two. They hired a new coach last year. The team wasn't very well coached. They could have stuck with them another year, but they thought to themselves, why are we just going to settle with this? Mike Vrabel is available. He's one of the best seven or eight coaches in the league. We have a franchise quarterback. Let's bring in a real coach here that can maybe transform the culture of our team, turn us into an immediate playoff team with this fourth-place schedule we have, and build something around our franchise guy, Drake May. They did not settle. And guess what? It worked great. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team on the football field.

The Patriots sure didn't. Shouldn't be the same for your insurance. Don't settle for just any insurance when there's State Farm. Like a good neighbor, state farm is there. By rule, because this is a basketball podcast today, we have to spend at least 5 to 10 minutes on the Spurs, which not only the most interesting story of this season, but is the water-cooler topic this year, is the League Pass team that has to be on if you're watching multiple games at once. And what WENBI is doing, I remember for the year on Fandil, he was 12 to 1 to win the MVP. Now, he's one of the favorites. I guess we're here. House and I talked about on my podcast on Thursday where it's like, I guess we're here. I guess he's one of the guys now. Jokuj, Yannis, Luka, SGA, whatever order you want. Do you feel like he has to be with those four guys now from just what you've seen in four games?

There's no doubt about it. I would have said that after probably the first half of the first game because I'm He was sitting there like everybody. Obviously, he shut it down last year, and we saw things last year, too. I had already thought about him, even in a limited amount of time we saw him last year, that I felt like every time I watched Wembeya, there was something he did in that game that I would say that's the only guy in the league that could have done that. He gave me at least one of those every night. The anticipation was there. Let's see what this looks like this year. What has he added? They had already said he got stronger, and that really translates more like functionally stronger than necessarily body mass. Functional strength is a real thing.

He seems like leg stuff, right? He seems sturdier and just something's different. His base is on his balance. His base is better, yeah.

When he drives and he's got a defender riding his rim and his hip and his rib cage, he's not pushed, where he's not going in a straight line to the rim anymore, where he would drift off toward the baseline and shoot something off balance off one foot. He's releasing the ball when he wants to now. He's playing through some of that contact, so it's more extended toward the rim, and it just improved his efficiency. So he's stronger. I saw the first half of that first game, and I'm going, I don't know what exactly teams are supposed to do offensively against this. And it's translating to them being four. No, look, they've played three bad teams. And if you throw Dallas in there, maybe even three and a half bad teams right now, because I think Dallas will be okay. They're not very good right now. And then three other not very good teams. And it's okay. But let's look at what's really going on. You can't score in the paint against this team, and they're not giving up anything at second-chance points. They're okay in transition, mediocre. When you can't score in the paint against teams, now you're relegated to just taking even more threes than you want Lower efficiency shots, probably because you have more guys taking them, but you don't want taking them because you can't get to the rim.

This is what it looks like, a suffocating defense that really demoralizes you. I've seen some shoulders drop against the San Antonio Spurs so far that you don't typically see at the NBA level, literally getting dispirited with how difficult this is looking to get to the rim. And also then the way he's scoring at you and making you feel so small on the other end of the floor. It's really been like, wow, moments. I can't believe the way that guys are sagging their heads, dropping their heads because they're that frustrated with what this looks like to them on the court. So, yeah, man, there's no doubt out. Wemby is in now must see category, and that team is going to be as a result.

Yeah, he's surrounded by these pitbulls, basically. And they're on their own, really, really athletic, aggressive, scary defenders. But then they're back by him. And the Cornet thing was big, which any Celtic fan knew that that was going to be good for them. They can play them together, which I was expecting, but they actually make sense because Wemby drifts a little more outside. He's way closer to the rim offensively, Which I think was my biggest frustration with him. And they really tried. You can feel the geometry of that shifting. Then they have this weird Fox situation because I want Dylan Harper to play. There's really something there that I think they need to tap into now. Castle went up a level. I think if you talk about who went up a level this year, he would be on the first team for that. And now they're going to move Fox in who's been an All-Star, who's in the prime of his career, who just signed a new contract. I think that's It's going to be a good thing, right?

Oh, yeah. It's going to be a challenge to figure out how all those guys are comfortable. That's the thing. Because they all, and even Castle more so this year than I saw him last year at all, just with the ball in his hands as a playmaker and reading high ball screen, just different loops.

All that stuff. All kinds of advanced stuff, yeah.

Fox is more of like... He's more of like an engine, go get mine score. He can facilitate. But even in Sacramento, a lot of the real facilitating took place through Sabonis. Dian Fox just goes. He's got this elite speed and elite pull up mid-range. That's his game. Harper and Castle are different types of players. Fascinating to watch all of them. And I'm curious when they have All three at their disposal, how those minutes get allocated.

Yeah, it's funny when you're thinking of nitpicks for the Spurs before the air and we're like, Oh, the shooting is going to be an issue. It actually doesn't matter. These guys are the most frightening, athletic, giant, weird team that anyone's going to play all year. The demoralizing thing is interesting. I'm going to look out for that when I'm watching because- Well, can I give you two examples of it?

Yeah. So go back and if I were you, and you You can catch this just if you just get the highlight reel from each of his games. Because it'll be an eight, nine minute tape of just him and the stuff that he's doing, right? So take a look at some of the reaction from Zion in that game against the Pelicans. Take a look at some of the reaction of Anthony Davis in the Dallas game. Look, I know the Dallas game, I saw more of it after the score got a little lopsided. So maybe that was part of it for AD. But there was definitely this look of almost submission defensively against him. I was like, Wow. Look, it's early in the year. They don't have all their guys. Kyrie is not out there. They're down 25. I get it. I'm not making a big judgment on Anthony Davis. I'm It's actually more complimenting Wembenyama because if you're doing that to a guy of that caliber that's that good defensively, and his reputation is that good defensively in this league, and it's just like what you're doing to this team makes them look futile. And then with Zion, it was more like what he was doing to Zion defensively against Zion.

Zion's not used to that.

Because they're just bowling over everybody and getting any shot he wants in the paint. And guess what? That's not happening.

Put his shoulder into your sternum, move you, and then he's great. He's got that. He extends it out to his left hand. He's always great touch shots with English. He puts on it high off the glass. And he was putting his shoulder into the sternum. Actually, on Wemby now, it was more like his belly button than his sternum. And then Wembiya Mbappi is giving ground, giving ground, giving ground, but still reaching over the top of him like an umbrella. And so Zion, when they would still try to shoot it and get it blocked. And you could see him shake his head and start shuffling back down the court. Like, on defense. So frustrated. He looked very young. He looked like a very young player getting frustrated, right? And these are two guys that are elite players in this league. And that's what Wemby Gnama is capable of doing to you.

Yeah, that's a really rare level to get to. You were in the league after Jordan came back, when him and Pippen were together that first season, and they were doing some stuff defensively, athletically, where it was almost like watching a great NFL defense or something, where they just ruin the quarterback's brain. But in this case, these were really good NBA players who were just like, I'm broken. Can you just take me out? You saw it.

And I wonder if the one of you can get to that. That was the only team, Bill, that I ever played against Those mid '90s Bulls teams that when you would foul them, and now they're going to the line when they've got Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, that group, Harper. And now they're going to the line and you're going, oh, my God, here comes this press. You never worried about getting pressed in the NBA. Most teams that have tried to zone press, and they would go like a one, two, one, one press, that doesn't work at the NBA level. The teams that have tried that in the past, you You're given up so much easy, fast stuff the other way. But yet they were so long and so fast and so aggressive, and the rules allowed a little bit more grabbing and holding and slapping and that stuff in the backcord. It was like, oh, man, the last thing you wanted to do was break to the ball in the backcord in the corner and catch the ball. So you do anything you could to avoid that death trap down there. Again, it's that feeling of, man, this is a little bit overwhelming, this defense, because you haven't seen anything like it.

That was the best defensive team I ever played against. And I played against the mid '90s Knicks teams, those Pacers teams, the Heat. These are great defensive teams, but nothing really, to me, was really on the level because of the athletic ability, quickness, and length of those Bulls teams. And now it's like a different level of demoralization with what Wemby can do with the ground he covers and the amount of coverage in the lane. I don't know what that even looks like to these guys on the court. I'd be fascinated to drop into a virtual world and see what that looks like with Wemby on the court, putting his arms out to the side and how difficult that must look to score.

Yeah, there was a moment in that Dallas game where Flag, who's played against everybody, and obviously, he has a ton of confidence. And you could tell, he's like, Fuck this Wemby guy. I'll go right at him. And he had this one where he took him and he was about to shoot and Wemby's giant spider arm came out and he just stopped. But he had already picked up his dribble and then he had to turn and get rid of the ball. And you could see him he couldn't compute what just happened, which seems like that's every game where these guys who played basketball their whole lives. They're like, I'm going to do this. Oh, I guess I'm not going to do that. Help? Anyone?

And I want to see him. I want to see, so now I've got a little bit of a sample of it with the two guys I mentioned. Now, if that starts happening on a regular basis where it's just this overwhelming frustration for some of these guys, it's going to be fascinating. The other thing he's changed, Bill, we're talking about he got functionally stronger. What has he added? He's meaner. I love it. He's meaner because he's a little older, man. He was young, foreign-born player coming into the league, super-hyped, really thin, and guys trying to get up in him when he was handling the ball. He had a lot of turnovers that first 15, 20 games he played. We're like, Okay, I guess that's seven, five handles not going to work in this league after all. Some people drawing conclusions on him right away. I'm going, he's like, nice. He's shocked in a way. What do I do? He's got none of that. He shed all of that stuff. He's got this nasty edge to him now where he is walking onto the court and he wants to rip your heart out. He wants to do the things we're talking about.

I want to demoralize you and frustrate you. And I'm coming for you. Every trip, he didn't have that until this year. And so it's really going to be fascinating to see what this guy's season looks like.

There's some ceiling stuff with that team. I was looking at the FanDuel stuff, which always tells you, has the market caught up with what I think I'm seeing with my eyes? For their division, which their division has Houston in it, it has Dallas, Memphis, New Orleans. And I was like, I feel like San Antonio versus Houston, not only for records, but for the division, to me, that's a toss-up because I think they're as good as Houston. And I know it's small sample size schedule hasn't been great yet. I don't really care. I think they're as good as Houston if Wemby can play 65 to 70 games, but they're plus 210 for the division. It's like, nobody believes it yet. And I think it's because people just want to see Wemby play for three straight months. Can you think of another reason? Because from a talent standpoint, they're with Houston, I think.

I don't know if I'd agree that they're necessarily there from a talent standpoint, but I think Wembe and Yamma alone makes up for anything. If you look at head-to-head matchups, maybe- That's what I was factoring that in, though.

They have a top five guy. Houston is not.

I thought maybe you were talking just one through eight looking at all those guys. Okay, yes. So when Mignonne makes up for some of that. That's going to be the fascinating thing for me to see. And I'm just glancing at this. I mean, this is crazy. Unless Oh, here they go. They play them Friday, November seventh. So that's going to be a first opportunity to see what that looks like because Houston has the potential to be top three, top four defensive team in the league. They've got athletes and size that they can throw at him. Quickness. The changing ends of the floor can be something that they can use against Wemby. I'm fascinated to see it. But look, it's four games in. It's been absolutely jaw-dropping. Some of the things we've seen out of him. Again, the schedule has been favorable to get off to this start. Let me see them play some of the true top-tier teams in the Western Conference. Then you'll get a much better idea of the sustainability of San Antonio winning to where are they more than a playing team? Is this a top six team, top five team, top four team?

Did you change your mind to that extent? I'm probably going to need to see about 15 to 20 game sample size to come to those conclusions because some weird stuff happens right out of the gate with some of these teams, and some it's not sustainable. And then other teams have been really bad that you know we're going to be better. So I want to give it a little bit more time.

Well, here's the problem. I'm more easily influenced than you, and I'm more impetuous. So I think they're there already.

I think that used to- Look, by the way, there's nothing wrong. It's smart to make the prediction now because- I really feel this way.

I really think they're a 50-win team. I genuinely do. I think they're loaded. I'm in disbelief.

If you hit that, you're going to look pretty damn smart. People are going to be like, Wow, Bill called this after a week, 50-win team. And if you're not right, I don't think a lot of people are going to hold on to that. So I think it's worth the risk to make that prediction.

Before the air, we did our over-unders, me and Zack Lo and Joe House. And one of my locks was San Antonio over 43 and a half because I was like, I just have too much talent. I can't imagine if Wemby is going to play. The ceiling for them has gone up in what I watched. I think that Houston Houston game is a really interesting game to point to, though, because you're right. On the one hand, Houston's got big bodies to throw at Wemby, and we're going to really see him get tested in a different way. On the other hand, San Antonio has all these defenders and people to throw at this Houston, we don't have a guard situation where it's like, Durant is going to bring the ball up this time. Thompson will bring it up this time. It's like, okay, are you going to still do that when we're pressuring you 94 feet and bringing in waves of dudes and we have Wemby. So in a weird way, they're going to pick each other's warts. And that's just a good rivalry to begin with.

I totally agree with that. I think you might... Listen, I had them at the under on that number because I saw that number, too, because I thought they were going to be around a 500 team. I'm not 100% convinced yet. They're a 50-win team because I want to see them play better competition. But here's what is undeniable. If Victor Wemenyama stays healthy and he plays 70 to 75 games, if he gives them that, they're going to be top five defensive-rated team in the League without question. There's going to be a lot of nights. If you don't make enough threes against them, you can't beat them because you're just not going to score enough points inside 20 feet. That's what I'm looking at now with San Antonio. I think that part of the equation is sustainable because they've got good perimeter defenders to go with it, funneling it to this guy. That's going to give them opportunities on nights when they don't shoot well to win games. So that's going to be there. Now, let's see what great defensive teams can do against them. And that's what I need to see.

If you were Houston, would you say, fuck it and use your assets and try to get a real guard and be cutthroat and use the Van Bly contract and use some of the Brooklyn Phoenix stuff and really try to get somebody who could change your destiny and make you a title contender right now because they're not without a guard.

A couple of weeks ago, I said, and I think some people in Houston lost their minds. And I said, if Reid Reed Sheppard turns out not to be able to take that leap this year, and first of all, I like Reid Sheppard a lot. I think Reid Sheppard is going to have a nice career in this league. If it turns out he's not quite ready, and they see that after 20 games, when you've got Kevin Durant at this stage of his career, you didn't bring him in to think about any long term horizon beyond this season. You're thinking about winning it all this year and next year, and however many years he plays. But every year, you're recalibrating to win a championship. So if Reid Sheppard is not quite ready to do that, and you're going, Man, this run your offense by committee through Ahmen Thompson, Durant, and Shengun, is just not good enough, particularly in tight games in the fourth quarter when you got to really execute and organize and make great decisions on the break and all the stuff you have to do.

And no fast breaks. You're not getting any fast break points at all if you have no point guard.

That's exactly And I said then, if that's the case, they may look to make a trade and try to bring in a point guard. And I do think that's true. Now, we're not ready to quite do that yet. We're a week in. But let's look at this as you get to late November, early December, and see what's their record in crunch time games. What is their efficiency in the last three minutes of close games? That's going to tell you if they think what they have is good enough or not. And if it's not, would not be surprised one bit if they went out and had a point guard just because of where you are with Kevin Durant in this stage of his career and how long are you going to have him. And you got to try to win it if you have him on your roster. It's that simple.

Well, we saw it the same way. You have to give Reid Sheppard 20 games. They're going to be a playoff team. They don't need to panic. But when it gets to mid-December range, Christmas time, and also you're going to have a couple of teams that either have decided, We suck, or, I didn't realize we weren't going to be good. Maybe we should make a trade. The Celtics are a really good example of this. I don't want to trade Derek White, but the Celtics aren't good. I thought the Celtics were going to be like a 8, 9, 10 seed and win a playing game when Tatum came back. I don't think that's happening. And I actually wonder, I was going to talk about this with you later, but we can talk about it now. I actually wonder if the way they built the team was a really stealth tank situation. They can't rebound. They can't protect the rim or rebound. I knew this going in, but my stupid Celtic brain was like, Oh, they're going to shoot threes. They'll play with pace. They have the infrastructure. They're not going to get stops. They're not going to be able to rebound.

And at some point, you got to look at Derek White. And I know I'm not the first one to bring this up. I'm not the last. But at some point, you look at Derek White in his early 30s, who's a winning player who's awesome, who would be great on Houston and could be a missing piece for them. And And it's like, is that a trade that makes sense for both sides? That's the stuff that we don't know now. But around Christmas, if the Celtics are 10 and 22, maybe you start thinking about it.

Well, first of all, I was with you in terms of what I thought their ceiling was this year. That's about where I had them. And again, that probably sounds 500-ish, right? That's where I was thinking. I was like, okay, man, this team is used to winning games. They still got a toughness there. They've got Jalen Brown to be the main guy. Derrick White is a great next option. They're going to be fine. They're hard to guard because of their style. Here's the problem, and this was the one thing I was worried about. It's looking that way early. It's one thing just to say, this is the way we play. We're going to keep playing that way. We're going to take 46 threes a night, and that's what they're doing right now. They're shooting 31% on those. You know why? Because the quality of the shots aren't as good. Because they don't have Jason Tatum is not out there. Because you don't have Jason Tatum. Jason Tatum was the magnet to create leverage defensively to shift the defense and to make you accountable in communications. That extra body being 4 feet closer to the action meant a longer close out to the role player on the weak side.

That meant a difference between a contested and a semi-contested or an open shot. That's a big deal to role shooters. Those guys that are standing out there waiting on the ball, when you've got action taking place that Tatum is initiating and there's this big shift in the defense, and now the ball comes your way, that extra half count matters a lot. And now you're seeing that with So I'm worried like you are. And then there's not like there's this physical dimension to them defensively where you're like, okay, that's going to keep them afloat every night. That's not really been there. Look, Derek White and Prate and Pritchard are really struggling to shoot the ball right now, and they hit a heater at the same time. That's going to help a lot, but it's not going to improve the overall quality on average of the shots you're taking. And that is why they were so lethal from the three-point line most nights. That's not really there now. And so here we are, one and three. And I texted you a couple of years ago. They're 0 and three. If they lose this next one, man, but they got to win.

Oh, man. I was on so many Celtics threads about If we lose this New Orleans game, the next three are Cleveland at Philly and then Houston the next night. And it was like, are we going to go all in seven? Is this going to be... What happens if they go? But they got one, but I'd find it hard to believe unless just shot 25 for 50 from three that they're going to win any of the next three games. On the flip side, this Philly thing, and we didn't do locks either way. The Philly over under for wins was 42 and a half. It's like, great. I have no idea what's going to happen with this team. But I leaned under because I've been beat. I just don't see it. I don't think he's going to stay healthy. Did not see the VJ Maxi thing coming. What's really interesting is the style and how fast they're playing. And then what happened with Maxi. Where if you're going to make the list of like, Leap guys this year, he's the number one. I mean, it's not even close. He looks like a different guy, and he was good last year.

This year is different. This year, he's looking like he's moving toward that Mitchell Brunson group which I would not have expected. What are you seeing with Maxi?

I agree. That's a good group to put him in. And I'm looking at a guy that is one of the quickest in the league from 30 feet to the rim. He's just an absolute blur. You cannot keep, especially going to his hand. He's got unlimited range. He shoots it incredibly well going left off the dribble to the point where most defenses aren't willing to extend on ball screen. So he gets that shot whenever he wants. The one thing he's getting this year pretty regularly is getting calls, which we're going to get into. A lot of guys are getting calls, but he's getting the whistle this year, the benefit of the doubt on a lot of stuff he didn't last year. Now, listen, he's playing out of his mind. They're winning games. I don't think they're doing it if he doesn't He isn't doing that at the same time Edgecom is playing the way he is. It's the combination of the two of them has been this relentless onslaught from the guard position on teams that no one has really been able to figure out here early in the year.

Do they put up 136 on Orlando? I know.

I watched every second of that game at no point. And then, Orlando, by the way, last year, in teams I saw live, I saw, I don't even know, probably 26 teams live last year, I would bet. Orlando impressed me more than any team in the defensively. It was an ABC game at Cleveland when Cleveland had that long winning streak. It was like 15 games or something. I remember that. And Orlando snapped that streak. They did it primarily because they just absolutely got up in Cleveland, who at the time was on a heater like you couldn't believe. Their efficiency was off the charts. They were average like 125 points in their previous 20 games. And Orlando completely got into them. I was so impressed with how hard they played. So you're talking about top five defensive team. They, at no point against Philly, did they contain the basketball for the entire game. At every time you looked up, someone was getting beaten off the dribble on the perimeter. And then Philly, just the freedom and the free wheeling mentality, up the floor, even after made baskets, they're throwing one pass ahead, and Kelly Ubre just shoots a 28-footer with no thought to it.

So all of these guys are clicking. It's set up by Maxi and the way Edgecom has played. There's a spirit about this team in the city right now, these fans are flipping out over how fun they are to watch. You've had very little out of Embiid, nothing out of Paul George. It doesn't matter. And yet the fan base has almost taken the approach. I know all these guys. I talk to these people that love the team all the time. They're just like, Man, I don't even care anymore. This is a breath of fresh air to watch this. This group of dudes having fun, playing fast, so good offensively with this joy about them. You still have these guys in street clothes. Everybody has got one eye on. But right now, they've been one of the best stories in the league to this point because of the way Edge comes played and the start that Maxi's had.

Yeah, I was at the Dodger game for 100 hours last night, so I missed all the basketball. And I woke up this morning, had coffee, and I'm still a mess from the night before, but I was like, All right, I got to watch two fourth quarters, and I have time to watch one half. What am I going to watch? I was like, Clearly, I have to watch the second half of Philly or Orlando. I want to know What's happening, and I watched the whole Philly-Boston game last week, too, is what you said. They're just pushing, pushing, pushing. And they have Maxi, who's basically the craziest downhill running back in the league right now, where he's just going and you can't stay. Nobody can stay in front of him. They flipped that Celtic game last week. I thought the Celtics had that game, we're going to win by 10. And Maxi just brought them back, made crazy threes, just kept pushing, pushing, pushing. Then VJ is in it. And they have this style that, not to be a dick, makes zero sense for Joel Embiid, the way they're playing. It's almost like they're two teams now.

And maybe there's a way to meld both of them, and maybe he plays two 10 minutes stretches each half, but he doesn't make sense with this team. In a weird way, I agree with you. I know a lot of Sixers fans, too. And all of them are like, I don't care. I love VJ and Max. I don't really care what happens anymore. I just want to see these two guys. So they're going to navigate it. But I think they're clearly a playoff team with those two guys if they play like that.

I think what's going on right now with their fan base is the lack of availability. It's just worn on them over years. And here's where the issue they're going to run into. It's going to be a problem for them. You get a guy like Paul George, for instance. So this team is playing great, fast, fun. All these touches for Maxi and Edgecom, Quentin Grimes and Ubreg, the next two guys, and they got all the freedom in the world. And now, okay, at some point, Paul George is going to play, and Bede is going to be out there certain nights. Everything looks different. It bogs down more. Not that Bede is not, obviously, more dominant player, guys are MVP in this league. But it slows everything down. It's less touches for these fun, energetic guys that are putting up numbers. In Paul George's case, I can't imagine if this team, I don't even know when he's going to play or what their record is going to be, but if their record is really good and this, he finally sees the court, and all of a sudden, it bogs down and he gives you a 4 for 12-er.

Why do you think the Philly fans will handle that if he's slowing the game down? During the game in real-time, they're going to be turning on him.

It's going to be a mutiny. It's going to be a mutiny. And now what happens is, I've seen this because that's the city I lived in for so long. You go to these games in any of the sports teams of Philly, and you feel the heaviness being transferred onto the court from the stance. And now it becomes very difficult for that player to navigate through that. And I'm worried for Paul George.

Especially Paul George, who I wouldn't say is incredible with adversity.

It's going to be a very interesting situation. This is the best case scenario. Everybody was sitting back and waiting to see what was the start of the year going to look like to feel like. Here's what's crazy, Bill, you can talk about all these over-unders. So went through 29 teams when I was doing mine. And then I saved them for last because I said there's one team in this league whose range is 24 to 54.

It's the Philanthropus 76. Highest ceiling, lowest floor. It's like a 40-story building. You just have no idea.

Yeah, it's incredible. I still think we still don't know that. It's been a great start. But at least it's more hopeful that if... Because I'm thinking on that, 24 was my thinking of. B, again, it gives you 25 games. Paul George hurt most of the year. They're going to do it again, 25 wins. But now I'm going, wait a second. If those guys do have those kinds of years physically, now I look at this team and go, this style And this level of explosive firepower, they're going to hang in more games than they could have a year ago. And so they're going to win more games. So it's not going to be the worst case scenario for that team this year.

I went through this Edgeco One thing is so unusual and so unexpected. I went there, I went basketball reference as that stat head where you can look up careers. And I was just looking up guards, 21 and under first year. How rare is it? Because in your head as the year has passed, you're They're like, Oh, Dwyane Wade must have been 25 a game that first year. He wasn't, but he was really good. He was impactful. But when you talk about guys coming in right away and being really good, just recently, Wade and Donovan Mitchell were the two that came in and were just immediately good and were 20 points a game guys and could run a little offense and do a lot of it and were explosive and athletic. Jordan, obviously, Luka, obviously, coming in. They were scoring. And then there's guys like Iverson and and Stackhouse and Tyreek Evans that were putting up stats, but you wouldn't call them winning players. The VJ thing is different because he's a winning player who's also getting stats. It just immediately jumped out in the tape from when he was in college, but now it's even better now where if he doesn't have the ball, he still knows what to do.

He's still moving. He's still like, oh, maybe I can get a back cut. Maybe I can get an offensive rebound. This guy needs help. I'm going to go over there. He's just helpful in a way that I think is just so unusual for rookie guards. In my opinion, the Sixers fans cannot be excited enough about him. He's really special.

If I was going to just share the text thread with all my friends, what you're saying is it doesn't even come close to how excited these people are about what they're seeing at Edgecom and Maxi, who's already... His popularity in Philadelphia is already through the ceiling. And a beloved guy, the whole thing. They just love him. It's just so easy to like him. And now on top of you pair him with this guy. There's a couple of things, Bill, that I see at Edgecom that are really going to bode well in terms of just projecting, is this real what we're watching? It's this. One, he has the ability to go from a very relaxed state with the ball to buy you in an accelerated state at a level... I'm not comparing him to Shay Gillesish-Alexander, but it's some of that, where it's all of a sudden, he's relaxed, you're slightly relaxed defensively, and then when he decides to go, he goes. That first step in push and acceleration is by guys or he's forcing you into such an overreactionary retreat. He can stop and make an 18-foot jump shot pretty easily. That's the first thing.

That is a special, God-given innate athletic quality that's going to create separation for him all the time.

That was Young Wade of Miami that first year. That's a great comparison. When just immediately you're like, Wait, what's going on here? Why is this coming so easily to this guy? So anyway, what That's your second thing.

Totally great. The second one is watch VJ Edgecom when he shoots the ball, whether it's at the foul line, a three, or something off the dribble, like a pull up. How strong and intentional he is from his... Basically, Basically, his elbow to his fingertips. He is so strong with his follow through and his wrist. Most young shooters come into the league, and because things are happening fast, faster than they've ever happened, they don't stay with their shot. And they flick it, and then their hand is down, and they're like... And they didn't stay with it. He has this ability, I guess, because he's just a mature offensive player. He's not phased by the speed of the game. So he is staying with his release better than most young players do. As a result, he's making shots at a really high level right away to start his career, even deep shots and mid-rangers, contested shots, because he's not affected by the pace of this game. And that's very rare for a young guard to come into the league.

Flag, Harper, Edgecom, one, two, three in the running for best one, two, threes we've had, potentially, because usually you hit two, not three. You don't have three in a row that are like, these guys can be all individually, it could be all NBA guys. And all three of them, I think, could be. Edgecom, I love that comparison game. I probably do too much, but it really does remind me a young Wade in a lot of ways, who I just thought, as the years passed, Wade played all those big high-profile games. He got older. We saw these different versions of his career. But that early Wade, even before Shaq got on the team, but then the first two Shaq years was just crazy. Flipping this around to a sad topic, is it Orlando panic time yet or is it just we got to figure out the new guy. I don't like how Palo's... Actually, I watched the second half of the game last night and I watched some of their other stuff. I don't love how Palo has played. I thought he was going to be a leap guy along the lines of what we're talking about, Maxi.

Their bench just seems like it might suck, which is something that I think they thought was going to be good. It's a relief, but the 136, I thought was a major, major, major, major red flag. So what did you see?

They just got completely stripped down by the Sixers off the dribble. And that's not really something that's typical of that team. I'm not remotely panicking on Orlando yet. I agree with you. I had them as potentially, if this Bane thing hit potentially with their defensive mindset, Bancaro and Wagner stay healthy all year, which last year they weren't. They both missed chunks of time. I thought, hey, man, the three seeds up for grabs. Orlando's in that mix to get the threes because I think New York, Cleveland are going to finish one, two. I'd be surprised if they don't. Orlando is the next team. Now, it hasn't been a great start. The one thing that's been surprising, their three-point shooting was anemic last year. It didn't give them a chance to win some nights flat out. It was just so substandard for father of the NBA. I've had five or worse in the week. Yeah. It's just not enough. So there are some nights, man, despite the fact there's a great defensive team, you got a couple of really good offensive forwards, you're going to have to make 13, 14, 3 some nights because that's what the other team required you to do.

And they couldn't do that. So I thought, okay, not only is Bane directly going to improve that because he's going to make two, three a night, some nights he's going to get hot, make six. But because of his presence and the way you're now going to rotate to him, it's going to mean a little extra time for some of the mediocre to below average shooters they have on their roster that didn't have as much time. And I thought, well, then they're also going to be better shooters. Bill, we're three games in or whatever, four games in. They're averaging on an average night, eight for 27 from the three-point line. That's worse than last year.

It's like having a bad field goal kicker in football where you're just giving away. You're just minus six in field goals every game, and you have to make up the points somewhere else.

I know. That's a great point. It's another correlation because I love the NFL like you, with the field goal kicking is not only that, when field goal kickers miss and you give the other team the ball at their own 40, it's a big deal. It starts to plant seeds of doubt in your head as a coach. Well, it's the same thing with these guys. Some of these misses are triggering breaks. They're triggering breaks the other way because they're not close. They're in the rim. It's a long rebound, especially a team like Philly that looks like a track relay team the way that they're getting up and out of the floor. I'm surprised at the Desmond-Bane effect not being there right from the beginning, but I'm not even close to giving up on them. Some teams find their rhythm offensively first. Some teams find it defensively, first. Orlando has not found the same rhythm and physicality defensively that they had a year ago yet. I think you got a new guy you're incorporating, their offense will get better, too.

I'm concerned, not panicking, but I don't understand why the defense isn't better. You have Minnesota tomorrow night. I went to Minnesota Lakers Friday and had good seats and really was soaking it in. The Minnesota Guard situation is a real thing. Conley being a year older and you could feel it the last couple of years anyway. But at some point, he's moving it to that Al Hofer territory where it's like, All right, this is 60 games, 20 minutes a game, and you're going to have to make due. I I just couldn't believe Bones Highland was playing over Dillingham, a guy that they gave up a real asset for in its year two. I thought he had a couple of moments last year. I thought Minnesota, to me, was a true contender, one of the six. I had him in there because they have top seven, top eight guy. They have size. Randall is happy. They have a full year to put Randall and DiFrancenzo together. The guard situation really left me... I left the game and I'm like, I'm actually nervous for that team because they're missing something. What do you, as you're preparing for the game tomorrow night, what are you seeing?

I love this point about Dillingham. And look, I think there's a good chance we're not going to see, unfortunately, Anthony Edwards, Luca, or LeBron. So that takes a little luster off the game. Oh, God.

Can they flex? Is there a flex to find it?

I know. I wish. So it does take a little of the luster off of it. But the Dillingham point is important because I really liked him. I like the move in acquiring him because there was such a need there. And so now you think about it, where are you removed from him coming out? And you're looking, you're four games in. He's played two games, six and a half minutes a game. That tells me something I'm concerned about. And Bone Tyler is playing over him. Exactly. And I'm concerned, Bill, because when you have such a need at that spot and you still can't find a way to make that happen, that tells me that there are seeing something on a daily basis that I'm a little bit concerned now for what's Dillingham's future. Now, maybe he ends up, maybe it's two years from now when he's on a team that's not as good getting a lot more run and that plays fast. Now in the open court, he's going to score. Maybe we go, Okay, Dillingham is going to be a fine NBA player, whatever. But in this situation, you're going to get limited minutes. It's a team that's contending.

They've been to two straight conference finals. They want to get to the finals. So everything is more scrutinized with their supporting cast, and you can't quite crack that yet. I'm a little concerned about that. I actually think maybe the two most important players on their team are going to be DiVincenzo and Terrence Shana Jr. Because those two guys have got to give them the supplemental offense they need consistently to be able to give them enough because their defense is going to be good enough, I believe. Of course, you've got Edwards, Randall's a little bit inconsistent. Where's that next infusion of often is going to come from? Consistently, DiVincenzo has to stay healthy, and it'll happen for him if he does. Then I think Terrence Shannon Jr. Is one of those guys that you play in 15 minutes, he's damn near going to get double figures most nights because he's so aggressive and confident with his offense. Maybe that can offset whatever they're not getting out of Dillingham. But I thought if I was going to see Dillingham right out of camp, being that guy that's getting you 18 to 20, 22 minutes some nights and playing very confidently and playing well.

That's not the case here out of the gate. I'm a little concerned, and I'll see for myself. If Anthony Edwards doesn't play, there's going to be more opportunity for him on Wednesday night. Let's see if Dillingham maybe does something to give me some hope. But right now, I'm not too hopeful how this is going to go for him this season.

It doesn't look good. My thing is maybe that draft was just bad. Sometimes we have that in football, too, where it's like the quarterback class, and then you look back at the quarterbacks, it's like, Chibisky. It's like, Oh, yeah. We were ranking Taking all these guys against each other, none of them are that good. You think about that draft last year, Reid Sheppard was third, Dillingham was eighth, and maybe it was just one of those weird draft years. I have another sad topic for you. We're almost done. I actually think, so the worst team of the last 30 years was the 2016 Sixers that went 10 and 72?

Yeah.

There's a team that I think could challenge that and maybe be even worse. And I'm wondering if you're thinking of the same team I'm thinking.

Well, there's only... I don't know, man. I wouldn't put Washington in that category. To me, then I think you're either talking about Brooklyn or New Orleans, right? It's one of those two.

Oh, you'd go New Orleans. Wow, I wouldn't do that. New Orleans actually has some talent. Brooklyn's thing, I don't see it at all.

My thing with New Orleans was just if like Zion, something happens to him physically.

And we're Where would they be from an organizational standpoint?

So is it Brooklyn? Is that who you're talking about? Yeah.

I think Brooklyn is just really awful. And I'm not sure what that draft was last year with all those pics, which they It makes sense when they happen, but a couple of those guys are... And I'm not even sure. Like, you know, Agur, he seems okay. I'm not sure he could be running an offense. I I just don't see it with them. And I don't think they want to be good either. And I'm just wondering, how bad are they going to be? Because they're not in these games. These games are over in the first quarter.

You took a... And look, they used all five picks, which was, I couldn't to leave. But they did. And four guards. And their top two guys were two guards that were foreign-born and slightly built and are going to take time. And it's way too early to know. And I saw some nice things. And it's just Summer League. It's the first time I laid eyes on these guys, the Jemen and. The first time I saw those guys, I saw some nice things that I could analyze out of them in Summer League. It's obvious that they weren't going to be ready at the start of the year to be major contributors. And when I say it takes time, sometimes that time never gets here.

We've seen guys- It's a Poko syndrome. It's like, Poko, it's going to take time. It's not the week.

No doubt about it. I mean, you could end up a Frank Milakina on your hands. You're right. I'm serious. Because it's a risk. There's a lot of risk there. And you're counting on your personnel evaluators to think that you hit it, even though you know they're not ready, but like, no, it's in there and hope they get it right to But that's risky to take all those guys. Now, you're right. Look, Kam Thomas is going to shoot the ball as much as he wants every night. Michael Porter Jr is going to have more freedom than he had in Denver. But what is that going to amount to? Not a lot. So I agree. I agree. Brooklyn's tough. In Washington, they're going to certainly lose their share of games. But there are guys I like watching. I want to watch some of those guys, particularly Trey Johnson, who was the most natural scorer I saw this summer. And I'm like, this dude is a bucket getter immediately in the NBA, and he's already doing that. 16 a game, 47%. He can flat out score.

Yeah, they have a semblance of an identity where they just have a lot of assets and a lot of guys who could create offense. And I understand what they're trying to do. They also probably don't want to make the playoffs, but it makes a little more sense. I was looking back at those early '90s seasons when there was a ton of talent, seeing if there was a really bad team. And I think the '92 or '93 Mavs went 11 and '71. And I thought that was notable because even when the bad team... A team like Charlotte that I really like watching, it's probably my guilty pleasure League Pass team, they have talent. They can go and just whack somebody, 135 to 110. And they're not a playoff team. So when you're a bad team and it's not just a good team is killing you, but then it's like, oh, Washington beat us by 18. That tells me you might be really bad. I think, I don't know, they're over under 17 and a half right now, and I still think that's five wins too high. To me, they're like a 10 to 12 win team.

Yeah, it'll be in the teens. I agree. It's funny you said that about Charlotte because you and I didn't go over our answers. We thought maybe this topic would come up. Who's your guilty pleasure team? That is probably not going to be a great team. That's who I wrote down, too. And the reason, honestly, more than anything else is I just think LaMelo Ball is incredibly entertaining. He's just fun to watch. You never quite know what he's about to do, trip by trip. Some nights that translates into incredible games, incredible styl lines. He makes some questionable decisions along the way. But one thing you're not going to get cheated on is entertainment value. I'm going to sit there for the next two and a half hours, and this is going to be fun as hell. I also really like Brandon Miller a lot. He hasn't really had the start I was hoping he'd have this year. He got hurt.

Yeah, he got banged up.

Because of the injury. When I was thinking, that's a guy right there that potentially this year, he elevates himself into that 20 point per game type category because I think he's got a lot of that in his game. They're fun, man. But can't stay on the floor, unfortunately. I don't know how many games are going to win. I don't know. Are they going to get 30? You think they can get 30? High 20s? I don't No.

Right now. High 20s, early 30s seems conceivable to me. That's it.

The other one that's- LaMelo makes it worth it.

Chicago is the other one for this. Oh, yeah. They're just fun to watch. If I just gave you a list right now, Orlando, Philly, Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, Toronto. And those teams are just in a tournament. They're all around the same. I don't know if that's going to be the case in January, but all of them have strengths and weaknesses. And if they're all playing each other, I'm not surprised by any result with any of those six teams. That could change by January.

And look at Chicago's start. This is really interesting here. So I separated the East with almost like different categories and groups of teams. So like I said a while ago, New York, Cleveland, to me, clearly, I'm almost feeling like if you don't get there this year, one of these two teams, when will you? That's how I am with them. So they're clearly the top two. Then you've got the wild card teams I would describe. Philly and Milwaukee would be in that category for me.

I'm pro-Milwaukee, as you know.

Oh, yes, you're pro-Milwaukee. I don't know where you had them, ranked prediction going into the season of where you thought their seeding would be.

I thought they were a 47 range team.

That's about where I had them. I put Philly in that category with them because they've got veteran guys, like superstar names. If it hits, things could go really well. Then you had the group of teams, which is the most interesting to me, Detroit, Orlando, and Atlanta. I think they're all the group together. There's real estate to be grabbed in the Eastern Conference.

It's so funny. We didn't talk about this. I saw this the exact same way. I had those three way closer together.

Put them right there together, right? And I'm going, young talent, there's real estate available in the Eastern Conference because of what Boston and Indiana are dealing with. It's there for you. Guess what? Chicago, right out of the gate, 3-0. You know who they've beaten? Detroit, Orlando, and Atlanta. Look, I don't know what this is going to look like. They finished the year 15 and 5, okay? They finished the year 15 and 5 last year. Get into the play- With good net rating and all kinds of offense-defense stuff that was really favorable. We're just horrific in the play-in game, offensively. They're going to go home. But still, they took the confidence builder into the summer the way they finished. And here you go, out of the gate, you get these three teams that you and I just described as potentially could have been three, four, five in the east if things broke, and they come right out of the gate. Bang, bang, bang. They clip all three of them off. I don't know. I don't know what this is going to ultimately mean for Chicago, but what an It was an impressive start to take those three teams that you and I both categorized in the same group and knock them all off.

And I had Detroit third in that group. I was a little more down on Detroit the most. I watched the fourth quarter of the Bulls last night. I would have watched I'd be more of it if I'd been home. Buzele's stuff's happening with that. And there was a lot of signs, a lot of breadcrumbs during the summer. He said all the right things. He did all the right things and looks like a different player and is actually creating his own stuff. And I actually like their finishing five. I think it's, I don't know, offensively hard to stop. They're going to have some issues on defense, but that was... He might be a leap guy. Komingo was another one on Golden State that just seems better than he was last year. And Kessler on Utah was another one that jumped out to me. It's like, he just seems better. Like he went up a level. Before we go, you got to do... Ryan Rollins is my favorite random dude. I just want to get that on the record. I just want to buy some Ryan Rollins talk. Before There you go. You had a referee trend you wanted to hit.

Well, I just want to talk a little bit about what we're seeing here early. And I don't know how it will all shake out. We'll revisit this periodically as we do this together this year and see how it's changing. I think some of these numbers are incredible to me. First of all, everybody's taking notice. We've had four guys get 50 in the first week of the season. Four. And three of which, like I said, very unlikely that they would do that. Free throws play a big part in that, except for Aaron Gordon, who made 10 threes. So it took that shooting performance, or you got to get to the line a ton, and all these guys did it. Marked in Austin Reeves, Shay. But listen to some of these numbers, Bill. Here, a week end of the season, there are 27 teams in the league committing more fouls per night per game than the league leader last year.

Really? Yeah.

The league leader last year was like, whatever it was, 20 33 fouls a game. There's 27 teams committing more fouls than that a week into the season. That, to me, just blew my mind. There's a couple more that you don't want to overwhelm people with data, but these are just amazing. There are But 10 teams right now, 10, averaging 30 plus free throw attempts a game. You know how many did it last year? None.

Yeah, I was going to say it. It's like the high last year was like 26, 27 range.

Denver was like the lead leader, like the 23 range or something. I think it was whatever. But there's just 10 teams. And then one more. Right now, there are 11 players taking 10 plus free throws a game. Oh, my God.

That's like Yannis territory.

Last year, one, Yannis Antetokounmpo was the The only player in the league last year, there are 11 guys averaging 10 or more free throws. I called a game that had 93 free throws in it. Here's my point with it, Bill. This will be the last time we talk about this. I actually think it's because of the lack of discipline defensively. I am seeing more guys slap at guys unnecessarily on the drive, going for every head fake in the world. They're going to block a jump shot. How many guys now are going to that little mid-range step-back up fake, the Shay, the Luca, the Trey Young, but more guys are doing it now. Austin Reeves is great at it. Maxi is doing it this year, and guys are just going for it every time they're falling for the bait. Closeouts on three pointers and recklessly fouling guys, fouling guys at the rim rather than making it make a tougher shot over a contested hit. I actually think most of the whistles I've seen in the two games I've called have been justified. I'm not seeing replays where I go, Man, are calling it tight tonight. No, I'm seeing guys that are careless and reckless and undisciplined defensively, and it's leading to these incredible scoring outburst and the types of numbers I'm talking about.

Now, obviously, that's not going to stay there. You're not going to have 27 teams commit more fouls than the league leader last year. It's going to come back. It'll deviate back to the norm a little bit, but that just puts into perspective what we have seen a week into the season. It's been a whistle after whistle after whistle, and most of it, I think, is the fault of the defense. I'm not blaming the officials.

Well, it might tie into what we talked about at the start of our conversation, which there's so much talent now. People are just harder to guard. It seems like every team has two or three guys that are really hard to stay in front of. The only thing I've noticed from, obviously, Conspiracy Bill, who I don't know if you know that well, but is honored to be here today. The only thing I've noticed, there's a specific call that it feels like everybody is getting now, especially the guards. And Maxi would lead the league in this, but SGA has been getting in forever. It's this drive where they're parallel with a guy going to their strong hand, or sometimes even their weekend, but strong hand, and shoulder to shoulder where they just go up and they make contact on the shoulder. And I feel like for whatever reason, every single player is getting that call this year. And I've specifically noticed it. So when you said you want to talk about a ref trend, I thought you were talking about that. But it's almost like they said to themselves, SGA gets this call all the time. We now have to give this to Maxi and Austin Reeves and name every other guard.

But I feel like everybody's getting that call. I don't know if that's intentional or not.

Well, I agree with that.

When you're doing your game tomorrow. I will.

And that call is prevalent. I know exactly the player you're talking about. It's mostly going to your right-hand down shot, whip it off the lane. A little bit of a bump with your shoulder into their chest. And then you almost veer off sideways and just throw it up and you get the whistle.

You hope to get the bank for the three-point play, but you usually don't because you had to whip it. It's an epidemic.

Well, the one thing that they told us was going to be the point of emphasis this year was they're really going to watch the high five contest because they felt like guys were getting out of control with it and taking advantage too much. There's too much contact on the hand. Or there was a swip down and a follow through hitting guys on the for them. They want to protect the shooters to a higher degree. Ironically, in the two games I've called, I've always seen that even come up a couple of times. So that's not even really played into these calls. Most of them are on reach-ins and grabs and slaps when you're out of position and guys are driving down the lane about to gather to go up to shoot, and you're seeing that help defender reach in and they're not in position to make the play, and they're carelessly reaching in and hitting guys on the arm. That's been, to me, the majority of the whistles I've seen, particularly on the scorers. So let's see what happens going forward. I'll certainly be watching for all this stuff in my game Wednesday night.

Well, now that you're a semi regular on this podcast in the Ringer. You get 45 seconds to complain about your NFL team. So I'm just going to offer you. I'm just going to give you. My favorite team is the Washington Commanders. And your season is already over. So go ahead, take the floor.

It's so painful because, first of all, I wasn't emotionally ready for the leap they made last year. I usually got to build up to that over a few years, and I just wasn't ready. Next thing you know, here I am. I'm sitting in my man cave at my house watching them in the NFC Championship going, going. I can't believe that this This is happening right now. And of course, we get violated in that game. But regardless, you're thinking, Okay, we drafted the right guy. Jane Daniels is the one. I love the moves. Adam Peters, Dan Quinn, Kingsbury. I'm all in on all of it. It's just gone all completely off the rails, man. Our season between injuries and just not making plays at key times in the game that need to be made. This is where we're at, man. Three and five with Seattle, Detroit. We're staring at three and seven with all these injuries. And the McLaren holdout, I think, completely derailed his season. He immediately got hurt. You think that's a coincidence? The guy doesn't have really training camp, and all of a sudden, he signs right before the first game, and he has barely played this year.

And that really, really affected everything. Jaden has been hurt twice.

That would be a good Sloan conference study, by the way, studying NBA and NFL contract holdouts. That happened at Trey Murphy last year. He was waiting for an extension, and then came back and was basically hurt for the first half of the year. But I always feel like there's always a stink from not being out there and not being part of the training camp process. It seems to happen.

Got called like 16 shutdowns last year, including the playoffs, and he caught his first one last night against the Chiefs. And I was at the game, went to the airhead for the first time And by the way, what an awesome experience just because it's just old school football town and that stadium. And it's just a really, really cool vibe, even though we obviously didn't play very well. And I say we a lot, by the way. Do you say we when you talk about the teams you love?

I sure do. I Unapologetically. Can't help it.

Yeah, I'm the same way. I am that emotionally invested in that team. So I'm dejected and down. There's nothing worse than when the team that you love the most, whatever sport, you feel like it's just they're not going to be in it this year. I'm only at the halfway point of the season. That just sucks because it just changes your anticipation when you open your eyes on Sunday morning.

It's just different. You had a lot of fourth down luck last year. You had a lot of things go your way. You had some injury luck. And then they had an older team that I went under on them this year because I thought it was the year after the big year. Schedule is harder. Schedule is way tough. You have all these old players. It's always hard to rely on those guys to stay healthy. But what's interesting is it's really hard to find seven NFC playoff teams, even if your seventh is San Francisco, who just lost their two best defensive players. And they might be able to to hang around and try to get to a nine and eight. Maybe nine and eight is a seven seed. So even if it looks bleak, they could go three and seven. But if you can get to nine wins, I think you get to the dance with a good quarterback. That would be the only thing That's a nice thing, I would say.

If they get to three and seven and they've got to play the Eagles two out of the last three games of the year, I don't know, man, how we're getting a nine win.

Maybe the Eagles don't care about the last game.

No, that's possible. You're always hoping that's the case. But I don't know. I have a feeling in the NFC this year, I think they're going to have to play through the wire to get home field advantage, whoever it may be. So I think these guys are good. No one's really separated. So I think they're going to have to play all the way through the wire, which is not great to play them two out of the last three games of the year.

Do you Now I have to ask you another question. Do you follow the NFL the same way you follow the NBA, where you're deep into the data and you're studying shit, or do you just follow a fan and don't think about that stuff?

I follow it in terms of I feel like I know the whole league. But no, In terms of metrics and trends and all that, not as much. And even in the NBA, and I think you'll see this when you see me call a game, and you've known me a long time, I definitely feel like I try to just really pick those numbers sometimes that are really good for the context of this conversation and not just keep spitting them out, regurgitating them because I think people tune you out. So I very selective when I'll throw those numbers out there when I think it really pounds home a point that matters. The NFL, I absolutely love watching professional football. I'm just addicted to watching the NFL. I love it so much. Even when my team is struggling or not good, all those years from '91 when we went our last Super Bowl to being good again with a 30-year drought. I watched every snap of every game, even at the end of a 4-12 season. I was still watching every play of the last game of the year because I just love football that much. That's me.

Well, I like how you do the NBA because I think you have the right instinct for it. Have the data, but it can't be too much of the act. You got to pick the accessibility of the numbers because I think we saw it happen in baseball, and they really struggled with it. And Basketball, it's a little bit of a sea sauce, but with the advanced metrics, I think people tune it out if it gets too confusing. But there is some really important shit. Like Orlando's three-point shooting, all those numbers last year, that was really meaningful. They had to fix that. So there is some really good stuff.

I do. Hey, real quick before we go, I got one in the NFL. I want to get some research on this. Maybe it's already out there. I didn't look. Commanders had a holding penalty on first down on a drive last night. It started them at first in 20. And I turned to my buddy who came to the game with me and I said, I really want to know what's the punt rate on possessions that start with a holding penalty? I want to know what the punt rate is of those possessions because it's incredible. Because there's There's nothing more punitive- You feel like the series is over. There's nothing more punitive than a first down holding penalty. It's seriously, it's like 10 yards. It happened last night and I was just wondering in my head, I don't know what the data says out there as opposed to normal possessions where you don't get that. But I guarantee it's significantly higher because we had it last night, and of course, we punted three plays later.

I'm sure somebody has that. I had it last year at the Patriots, where they held on, I think, 50 % of the first they had last year. It felt like that anyway. Tim Legler, a true pleasure. I'm glad we're going to do this all season. Good luck tomorrow night, calling a game with not as many stars as maybe they thought five weeks ago. But it's great to see you. Thanks for doing this.

Thanks, Bill. I appreciate it.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to Gael and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, new rewatchables. Halloween, too. It's up. You can go check it out. I'm going to be back on this feed on Thursday with some football and some basketball basketball, and maybe even a little baseball. Let's see what happens in this World Series. We'll see how it goes. See you on Thursday. Must be 21 plus in President Select States for a Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800 Gambler. Visit rg-help. Com. Call 888-79-7777 or visit ccpg. Org/chat-n-connect, or mdgamblinghelp. Org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp-line-ma. Org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-8 Hope, N-Y, or text Hope, N-Y, in New York.