Transcript of The 30 Most Intriguing NBA Playoff Guys, With Zach Lowe New

It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. I am here with Zach Lowe. Sunday Night Live on Netflix. I am so glad we waited because I would've bet anything heading into today that Denver was going to be our number 4 seed, not our number 3 seed. But no, they beat San Antonio. Anyway, Zach's in Denver because he's doing a live show there tomorrow night. I have a new Rewatchables coming tomorrow. It is a live show we did last week in San Francisco. Basic Instinct. So get ready for that. There's also a new, new Ringer podcast coming. I wanted to mention on Tuesday that you can follow, subscribe now. It's a, uh, a narrative podcast called La Gata. And if you like Miami Vice and the '80s and drugs and cocaine and great stories and all kinds of things like that, which I do, uh, get ready for La Gata. 2 episodes coming on Tuesday. All right, Zach Lowe.

Yeah.

Do you wanna start West or East? 'Cause shit went down today. Things happened.

As much as I'm tempted to start with what the hell happened with the Orlando Magic today, I think the West has to be the starting point just because of the implications of Denver getting the 3rd seed, the Lakers getting the 4th seed, just wide-ranging matchup implications across the board there. Okay.

So Denver, all we knew from Denver today, they were 11.5-point underdogs. Against San Antonio, and all we knew was that Joker had to play like 15 to 20 minutes to be eligible for Game 65. Other than that, seemed pretty clear, 'cause they were resting all their dudes, that they were really comfortable getting into that 4-5 matchup playing whoever. San Antonio wants to beat Denver because that would've moved the Lakers up to 3. That sounds great to them. So they're trying hard the whole game and somehow Denver says, No, no. David Roddy.

Somebody's going to be trapped there. Big body Roddy, baby. Can't stop big body Roddy.

Yeah. No Wemby for San Antonio. So now, I guess my question to you is, if you're Denver, are you like celebrating right now? Are you happy? I mean, you're celebrating that you got the over. Your over was 53.5 for the year. Miraculous over. I won. We did terrible on over-unders. You won for most correct over-unders. All of us were under.500. I went 5-3 on my locks. I'm selling that to my fans this summer, off year, 5-3 on the locks. But if you're Denver, are you celebrating?

What are you doing? I, I think you're, you're like, you clearly didn't care, right? So if they cared, they could have manipulated it more than they did. And I think, look, you're gonna have to beat these teams sometime. I, you could argue like, is it better to go Oklahoma City and then San Antonio and hope one of 'em gets knocked out? Or is it better to go San Antonio than Oklahoma City? The order they're gonna have to go now, you might It might have to be both of them either way. Might as well have some fun. Don't tempt the basketball gods by manipulating the standings and pulling shenanigans on the last day of the season. Have some fun. Get in San Antonio's head. Maybe I, I don't mind it. I mean, it's, it's 6-1, half dozen or the other. I would've liked the easier first round matchup, but it may not even make a difference in the end. And we'll see how Minnesota looks in the first round, right? Jaden McDaniels just came back. Ant just missed some time. They've been just up and down and weird. And, and Denver actually kind of played much better against the Wolves this year than they had in the prior couple years.

I think they were 3-1. So I like it. Go for it. Get some Ws.

Well, I was trying to think of the weirdest Game 82 that actually swung seasons. 'Cause there was one, I don't remember what year it was with the Duncan Spurs, but they lost a dumb game in the last week or the last day and it swung the seeds and it actually like screwed up the playoffs.

I believe it was—

'cause I'm old now.

I believe it was a loss to New Orleans on the last day of the season that set up the Spurs-Clippers epic first-round series in New Orleans.

Yeah. New Orleans made the playoffs 'cause of it. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. 2015 then. So that was one. Then the other one was 2 years ago, San Antonio with Wemby beat Denver in the last week, and that swung the Denver seed a little bit. And then all of a sudden their road was much tougher and it hurt them in the playoffs.

You know what, your road's gonna be tough. You want to win, the road's gonna be tough. And you know, I have some Denver thoughts on the road to, to the, to the finals or whatever that I'm gonna share later when we do our draft. I like it. Road's gonna be tough. Don't tempt the basketball gods.

54 wins for Denver. They don't have Gordon half the year. They lose Peyton Watson for a long time. Cam Johnson's not really healthy till the last, I would say month and a half, and they hit their over-under by a half win. Feels like around the right thing. And yet I watched a ton of Denver this year, and I really feel like that could have been 60 wins. They had some really dumb losses over the course of, uh, of the year. So Denver-Minnesota now becomes, I think, our best first round series, right? That's the best matchup where there's history. I could see an upset. Great players are in the game. Minnesota seems like they're relatively healthy. I think that's number 1 now.

I think so. I mean, Knicks-Hawks has a lot of fun potential, but it doesn't have the history. You know, this is a rubber match. I think 3 of the last 4 years now they'll have met in the playoffs. That's what you want. Like, that's where rivalries happen when you face the same team 4 outta 5 years, 3 outta 4 years. A lot of the characters haven't changed. There's been some changes, but like a lot of the core guys, are still there. It's 1-1, epic 7-gamer the last time they played that Minnesota won on Denver's home floor. It's the Tim Connolly like hovering over everything series. Oh yeah. The Rudy Gobert draft day trade like stuff happening and Tim Connolly reacquiring him in, in Minnesota. There's just a lot here. And yeah, it is, and it's a big series for the Wolves because I think they've banked a lot on, hey, we've made the conference finals 2 years in a row. We play up to our competition. Sometimes we play down to our competition. We get bored. Yeah, look, wake us up in the playoffs. So now you woke up and you're 6th and this is what you're looking at.

Nikola Jokic having his best offensive season ever. Jamal Murray gonna be make second team All-NBA, maybe third team. I'd put him on second team. Good luck. That's not what you want. This is your reward for, you know, kind of lollygagging through parts of the regular season.

You have to go Denver, San Antonio, OKC.

No shot. Not happening. Not happening.

I don't like my chances as healthy as Minnesota is. So the, the most unhappy team was Minnesota. I'm sorry. They, they go into the day thinking they might be able to play the Lakers in round 1 with Luka maybe coming back halfway through the series. Instead, they have Denver. The happiest team is the Lakers. Lakers now at—

are they that happy?

Yeah, yeah, they get to play that weird Houston team who loves nothing more than being up 8 with 4 minutes left and then blowing the game. Um, I don't know, I think out of all those teams, they, they didn't have a real chance against Minnesota. Didn't have a chance against Denver. I think they have a chance against Houston. They could tread water. Maybe it's 2-1 after 3, maybe it's 2-2, maybe they're down 3-2. Luka comes back like game 6, 7, 5, somewhere in there. You know, there'll be a game where the Lakers shoot 55 free throws or something crazy.

Love it. You're planting the seeds already. You wasted no time. 5 minutes into the pod.

Yeah, no time. You know, there's gonna be a game that Houston chokes away a 12-point lead with 5 minutes left. And the people that haven't watched, been watching them all year are like, What's happening? Why is KD dribbling the ball up against the press? What is this team doing?

That, that's—

I don't know. I'm prepared for this to go 7.

That's the game that the body language doctor is gonna write a 10,000-word column analyzing what happened to the Rockets in that game. Shouldn't the Rockets— couldn't you argue the Rockets are the happiest team because they get the Lakers without Luka and without Reaves? Maybe Luka comes back. I don't know. I'll believe it when I see it. We don't know when he's coming back. Could you argue that the Rockets, who have won 9 outta 10 and are playing kind of well, that they're actually the big winner or that Oklahoma City is the big winner because Denver and, and San Antonio kind of slotted where they should and they'll have an easier second round. Like I think, I think Houston and Oklahoma City have cases too.

So Rockets, Lakers, both of them ecstatic to be playing each other.

Yeah.

Nobody can be offended 'cause they're equally as excited to have the other team in a round one series. The other thing that got decided in the West, Portland locked down the 8th seed, which means we have Portland-Phoenix. It was an almost hilarious Game 82. The Kings, they're like a mongoose. I don't— you, you watch Instagram videos of a mongoose just taking down a snake and you're like, how did that happen? Is that something I don't understand?

Is that something you're doing regularly, watching?

I got up the algorithm for a second. I had to delete it. What were they, 8-8 in their last 16 heading into the playoffs?

This is why you can't fire Doug Christie. You gotta keep him. He could be This could be the next, you know, pick an all-time great coach. We could be sitting here 20 years from now. Doug Christie just won his 600th game as head coach again. You can't fire him. How could you? How could you?

I gotta say the young guys are looking better when they remember. It was pretty good.

Doug Christie, like a month ago, I was like, who is that guy with like the ponytail? Little, the little guy. Oh, we picked him in the first round. Maybe we should try to play him.

Should I play him? Yeah. I don't know. I was thinking of nicknames for them, whether they're the Sacramento Drunk Kings, because they're just drunk at all times. You have no idea what to expect. They're the drunk guy at 1 in the morning. Anything's possible. You think of, like, the game 82 today. It's like, I don't know, they could beat Portland. Well, why would they beat Portland? Because they're the Kings. How can you figure out anything they're doing? I don't know if they're drunk, drunk Romeno, or the Sacramento Drunk Kings, whatever they are, but they've just had 3 bears in them at all times.

I think it's just a lot all the time. It's just, you know, like we've already made great fun of the intentional foul on Seth Curry and just, you know, it's bad times when your defense in the court of tanking law is your own incompetence. That's the only—

Your Honor, no, we're just that dumb. Yeah, we just misread the situation and we're stupid. They have a guy, Dylan Cardwell, kind of feisty backup center who I have in my head called him Dwyane Coswell 130 times. And it's just too much for me. And I think I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna say that he's Dwyane Coswell. Uh, so anyway, Portland ends up holding off Sacramento. And now we have a really good Blazers-Suns game in the 7-8 matchup. And I have not looked on FanDuel yet to see what the line is, but I'm gonna guess that that line is around like the Suns being barely favored. Would you agree with that? Like Suns like minus 2?

I'm not a betting guy like you are, but I was gonna throw out Suns minus 4.5 or something like that. I think it's gonna be a really fun game.

I'm going to find out right now. Uh, I don't, I don't see it.

It might be too soon. Might be too early.

Too soon. We'll go back. FanDuel not ready for us yet. Uh, maybe they're still trying to figure out what happened in that weird Sacramento game. Uh, I, I'm bummed if I'm Phoenix. I would have much rather played the Clippers. I just don't think the Clippers have enough size and, and I think I think everybody's excited to play the Clippers right now. Like if I'm Golden State, which is gonna be Wednesday night, I'm so excited. Can't wait to go. Um, might be Steph Curry's last meaningful playoff moment for all we know. Who knows? We have no idea if the Warriors will ever be good again.

This is not a meaningful playoff moment. I'm sorry. I know it involves Steph Curry and Kawhi Leonard and Draymond Green and a bunch of big names. The, we could not call the 9-10 game a meaningful playoff moment. I'm banning you from doing that.

Counter.

No counter. I don't accept your counter.

Counter. They win the 9-10, they win the 8-9, and now they're playing OKC, the team that gave us the first great Steph Curry arrival moment, the double bang, when it became clear that this was somebody who had a chance to be a generational guy. And now we circle all the way back. They took Kevin Durant from them. They're gonna be, you know, prohibitive favorites. They have probably no chance of beating OKC, but OKC-Golden State, I would watch every game, every minute, and really enjoy it. And who knows with Steph Curry?

Okay.

We, we talk ourselves into a who knows with Steph Curry by an hour before that series. And by the way, they'll probably get swept.

I was gonna say, I feel, I feel like that's a nice That's like a nice pregame intro for whatever network has that game. And then 8 minutes in, we've forgotten about the pregame intro and it's 26 to 8, Oklahoma City in game 1.

Lou Dort is just clubbing Steph Curry. Portland though, Legs and I talked a surprising amount of them on Thursday. They, now that Charlotte is no longer allowed as a guilty league pass team because they just became a well-known good league pass team. Portland over the last couple months became the guilty league pass pleasure team, especially when Avdić came back. And Avdić is right on the fringe of a third team All-NBA if Luka is not eligible. Now, I asked multiple NBA sources today, hey, how about a Luka ruling? That would be cool. Like, we're all doing podcasts this week, doing our votes, and we have to turn the votes in. Like, you know, it'd be cool knowing if Luka Dončić was eligible or not, because there's a huge Still no idea.

I think they're not even allowed to file the appeal until the last day of the regular season. So that's now. And I, I mean, it's just, I can't believe that we're in a situation where we have to wait for like actual litigators to figure out whether a guy is eligible or not. And we're just like, I don't know, this 4th on my MVP ballot could be Jaylen Brown, could be Luka Dončić.

I don't know. Well, there's some salary cap stuff tied to this, right? Which is one of the reasons you didn't wanna vote anymore. But like, like I have Castle on my third team. Oh yeah, I'm just, spoiler alert, I'm putting him on. And I don't know, does that affect, I have no idea, does that affect like his, it doesn't, right?

For no, he's too soon into his career unless I'm wrong.

What about Scottie Barnes? Does it bump him? Does he get like a percentage thing? I never see, I try not to look at this because I don't want to think about this stuff.

You got to be in the right year and I don't think either of those guys is in their, in their right year so far.

Well, we'll see with Luka. All right, to the East, the game of the day, the reason Game 82 exists, the reason the Play-In is so much fun. Boston against Orlando. Celtics were like 13.5-point favorites, and I was telling you—

Underdogs, underdogs, underdogs.

I mean, yeah, um, they were a live dog to say the least. If you know anything about this Celtics team or Joe Mazzulla, Joe Mazzulla, incapable of tanking.

And for the record, you and I talked on the phone 6 hours before the game and you predicted exactly what was gonna happen, that the Celtics were gonna play all their backups and the backups would play hard as shit and the Magic would be like, oh my God, we're in a game. What's happening to us? Desmond Bane, maybe come back. Are you still in the arena? Maybe come back and play. We might need you.

This was, if we hadn't had San Antonio-Denver a weekend ago, this was in the running for game of the year. We had the reunion of the Maine Lobster Claws. This was it. This was the Maine Lobster Claws sports movie. We had a Celtics team that had $11.5 million in active players playing Orlando, who's playing everybody except Desmond Bane, who did the ceremonial— you'll play the first half. You played 82 games in a season. Congrats, buddy. Have a seat. Enjoy the second half. And he's back in the game with 5 minutes left, which is the ultimate humiliation. 3 Celtics had career highs. Baylor Shireman, Ron Harper Jr., who was on his way to 40 and got hurt, and then Luka Garza. Garza hit the craziest 3 of the Celtics season. Orlando crawls back, ties the game. The Celtics can barely get the ball in, but have somehow scheduled a 2-for-1. That's basically Garza just shooting a 26-footer on Carter right in his face and makes it. And if you're thinking about voting Mazzulla for Coach of the Year, it's nights like this. This team is just from number player number 1 to player number 20 is just wired to try really hard and play smart and do well.

And it was an amazing achievement.

I am, I would vote Joe Mazzulla for Coach of the Year, by the way. I'm thinking of asking the league to get my ballot back next year. I'm getting itchy, but I would vote Mazzulla Coach of the Year over JB Bickerstaff. They would be 1-2 for me. And my second observation is I'm almost alarmed by how delighted you are talking about Game 82. This might be the most delighted I've seen you talking about the Celtics on any of these podcasts.

Something about— it's my favorite win of the year.

Yeah. I mean, you're, this is, you're, you're giddy.

Well, listen, Shireman is turning into a guy. Oh, no doubt. And now when I say he's turning into a guy, I'm not saying like this is somebody who's going to be an all-star or be the focal point of an offense. But if we're— he has now at least moved into the— in a playoff series, there's going to be a weird Baylor-Shireman half-quarter game. Something weird is going to happen with him involved. So there's that. I like Garza, and I think Garza is better than Vucevic for this team. And I know they're going to have a week to try to get Vucevic going, but I like the fact that Garza was really good. And I continue to love Ron Harper Jr., and I feel like on a lot of different teams, he would have played 25 minutes a game. So all that stuff was good. But the reality is this is— everyone's like, is this Jalen's team or is it Jason's team? Whose team is it? It's Missoula's team. This guy, this is one of the best coaching performances I've seen in a long time. He was— you could tell in the first quarter, he's like, was like a Game 7.

And he never— he had that energy and was just, was really something.

For a half a second, for half a second there, when you were saying, is it Jalen's team? Is it Jason's team? The reality is, for half a second, I thought you were going to say it's Shireman's team. I thought for— there was just like, my brain just went for half a second. Is he actually going to say Shireman? By the way, I think the way I would put it is like, that guy is now ready to be a 20-minute-a-game guy in the highest level of postseason games. Like, whether he has a half or whatever, like, he's ready to play real minutes, real backup bench minutes. Against the best teams and hold his own on both ends of the floor. He's a good, good player.

Couple fun things with him. Really good at not always breaking up 2-on-1s and 3-on-1s, but at least kind of fucking up the play a little bit. And an excellent rebound tapper, which I know is one of your favorite skills.

Love a tap. Love a good tap.

There's 2 different taps. There's one where the guys just blindly tap it backwards, which we were taught when we played basketball never to do that, 'cause you're jumpstarting a fast break for the other team. Then there's the other tappers that are like really smartly tapping it to teammates or in areas where you can get the ball back. He's really good at that. The flip side, Orlando. I think Mosley, I don't think he wasn't on the hot seat before, but this is a borderline catastrophic Orlando loss. I mean, they actually went backwards in the standings. They now have to play a playing game as the road team. Inexplicable. The main thing, and we'll talk about Atlanta in a second, but this whole thing about just not taking Game 82 seriously enough because the other team's gonna rest some guys, the league's too good now. Like, we saw it with Denver, we saw it with the Celtics. Like, when guys play scrubs, they're not scrubs anymore.

You know? No. The only thing I would say is all it cost them, and I think they understood that it was the most likely scenario by far. All it cost them was home court in the 7-8 game against a Philly team that's not gonna have Joel Embiid. I'm just, so let's just not like pretend that it cost them like the 5th seed or the 6th seed. It cost them, and it's certainly embarrassing. The Bain thing was extremely unusual and, and also kind of embarrassing, but it didn't cost them that. Like, I, they should still. They should still be able to beat Philly on with no Embiid on the road. And if they can't and their season ends, then Jamal Mosley's seat has been hot all year. It then erupts in flames.

I think it was a horrific coaching job. And I will say this as somebody who watched that entire game and was talking to people about it as it was happening, being in disbelief that they weren't pressuring a team that had no point guard. The Celtics had no point guard in that game. They had, Banton dribbling the ball up and Shireman and Ron Harper Jr. And Orlando has all these dudes that could pressure you and people that can— you try to trap, just try to get some turnovers, and they're just letting them walk the ball up. I, I thought it was incredibly confusing, but the team that was probably the most furious was, you know, Atlanta, who can also look at themselves in the mirror. Because they decided not to care about Game 82, and now they have to play the Knicks because they basically tanked away— instead of the Cavs. But here's my question. Well, but now they have to go Knicks round 1, Celtics round 2, potentially, which I'm going to guess wouldn't be ideal. My question for you is, it seems like the Hawks were cool with that.

I think they were cool with that. I, I think even mapping it to round 2 is kind of misses the point of what their season is. If anything, in round 2 for them is gravy. And sure, it would be nice to get an easier round 2. I don't think they cared. Knicks versus Cavs, they've played both. I mean, they've had good games against both of them in, in the last week of the season. They lost to both, but good games. And I think they also probably wrongly assumed that Orlando would win, which would create a 3-way tie that they would then win and keep the 5th seed. And Orlando messed up Orlando's plans. It messed up Philly's travel plans. Philly got to cancel some travel plans and it messed up part of Atlanta's plans. But in the end, I just don't think they really care.

Yeah. Well, I watched, I watched them play the Knicks on Monday and I watched them play the Cavs on Wednesday. I saw the second half of that one. I watched the full Monday game and Alexander Walker was great against the Knicks. I mean, he probably had one of his best games of the season. Knicks end up winning at the end. Brunson made some plays.

That's the game McCollum makes the crazy half-court shot that doesn't count by like—

Doesn't count.

A fingernail.

The Hawks looked really comfortable against the Knicks. And if I'm the Knicks, I'm fucking bummed. I would've so much rather played Toronto than Atlanta. Atlanta has dudes to throw on Brunson. Brunson's gonna get his points and do all his stuff anyway, but they can throw Daniels at him and Alexander Walker at him. That's not nothing, right? They could even put Jalen Johnson on him if you want to go big. It's, it's just a weird matchup for them because their, their team's kind of built to stop the other team's awesome wings. But the, the Hawks have like just weird guard stuff. They get points in bunches. And if you look at like what the last, uh, I had this written down, last 31 games, both teams are 21-10. And they're right next to each other in ratings. So for 40% of the season, they've basically been right next to each other. I don't know. I, I thought Atlanta Cavs would go 7. I would say 6 or 7 for this. It just like not having done any of the studying yet, but this just at least feels like a longer series to me. What do you think?

Yeah, I can't wait to dig into the film and everything over the next couple of days, but yeah, I don't think it's going to be a quick series. Atlanta's ceiling is just higher than Toronto's. Like Toronto can hum along at an okay level 'cause their defense is always pretty steady. They just can't hit the heights that Atlanta can hit because their offense is just pretty, is pretty limited. To your point about Brunson, it'll be interesting to see. I, I'm gonna go back and watch who, who, you know, who they would've put, who Toronto would've put on Brunson in a playoff series. Whether, can you put Scottie Barnes on him? Do you need Cap? But these are things that we don't care about anymore. And the Knicks dominated Toronto. In the regular season. So I'm sure the Knicks would've rather had that matchup. It's a comfortable one for them. Atlanta is like this new team used to be like a pretty direct, as, as tricky as Trae was to game plan against on defense, it was a pretty direct game plan. Like Trae's coming at me on one end and on the other hand we can direct our entire offense to wherever Trae is.

And now it's, they're just a hard team to grasp and plan for and, and a tricky team to play against.

The problem is they're like a bench guy short. And it was funny watching Portland tonight 'cause Crecce was playing for Portland, who they gave away, I guess for tax reasons. But I think that one of the games, I think it was the Knicks game, they got 8 points total from their bench. They just got like nothing. And Kaminga is gonna be, you know, Kaminga's gonna be hit or miss. He'll have 21 game, might have 2 the next game. Toronto, to your point, and this is Cleveland had to be another one of the happiest teams today. 'Cause Cleveland, I think Cleveland-Atlanta would've been a kind of a bloodbath. Toronto went 500 for the last 75% of the season. They started out 14-5. They went 2-16 against the top 3 seeds in each conference. They got swept by the Celtics, they got swept by the Knicks. So to your point on the ceiling, yeah, they, they finished with the 5 seed 'cause of what happened with Orlando. But I don't, I just don't feel like there was any difference. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, even you go all the way to Miami. Like I, I just, all those teams could look good on the right night, you know?

And out of all, all of those teams, I think my favorite's probably Atlanta. If you go from 5 through 10, I think I, I thought Atlanta was playing the best. At the end of the year.

Yeah, Charlotte has, has not stumbled, but they've come kind of come back to earth a little bit in the last 10 games. Ended up 9th, which is great. It's a great, it's a great season for them anyway. Certainly they can still get into the playoffs. Atlanta's been the highest level team in Toronto. This has been a huge talking point in Toronto all year. They can't beat good teams. They haven't been good enough at home. They've actually been decent on the road. Just a weird team whose offense on the wrong night just looks clunky and gummed up and Yeah. We'll see how they do against the Cavs.

It's a team that has a good bench, which can go a long way over the course of a regular season, but in the playoffs, I don't know if it, it necessarily matters that much. Atlanta and the Cavs. What, which actually, you know what, let's take a break cuz I wanna find out from you which one just first glance is feeling the most upsetty. To you, but we're gonna take a break, come back and answer that. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during their playoff run. Build the same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip-off. Don't forget, with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now. And play your game. 21+ select states or 18+ DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. Family vacations are great. My, uh, favorite family vacation ever, I went to cover the 2012 Olympics in London, and I brought my family.

My son was 5, my daughter was 7. And we were in London for 3 weeks and we went to Paris for another week and it was just awesome. Uh, our kids were the right age to travel. That's my number 1 family vacation I've ever had. But we've had plenty of those trips where everyone's excited, but you hit the planning part, suddenly it feels like there's too many moving pieces. You start talking yourself out of it. Can't find the right flight, can't find the right hotel. That's why Expedia is a total game changer. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals. Cars, activities, everything's in one spot, which makes the whole process way easier. And the bundle and save feature is huge. The more you bundle, the more you can save because you can book what you need now, add more later, keep saving on the way, book your flight today, attach your hotel tomorrow, and you're still good. So if you're thinking about your next family getaway, bundle your flights, cars, hotels, vacation rentals, and save. Savings vary. Members only. Book your next trip with Expedia today. All right, playing games. We're going to do the upset conversation in a second.

Philly-Orlando is one of the games. That's Tuesday night. No Embiid. Mosley in the hot seat. Orlando trades all that stuff for Desmond Bane and wins 4 more games. And I don't think their fans are doing backflips about how the season went. Do you think if you're Detroit, do you think Detroit has a preference out of Philly, Detroit, Charlotte, Miami for who they want to play? Or do you think they just feel like they're good against all those teams?

Yeah, I think if you ask Detroit, they would say, dude, we won 60 games or whatever. We're tough as shit. We play defense, we rebound. Like we're gonna beat the hell out of all these teams. We're not afraid of any of them. Realistically, Statistically, I think you would have to say Charlotte would be the one that you would say they have, they've demonstrated a very high level of play for a very long time, been competitive against us, although we beat 'em in the brawl game 'cause they could not handle our size and our physicality. That's what kind of triggered the whole Diabate, Duran, Stewart brawl. So I don't think they, they'd really have a preference, but if you're telling me I get to choose between like fully healthy Charlotte, Philly without Embiid, Orlando, like a half-broken team. Miami kind of just like stumbling around for the last 20 games. I'd at least want not Charlotte, but I bet they don't care and they shouldn't. They're the number one seed.

Yeah, I would say Charlotte as well, except I watched that game Friday and the Pistons really big boyed them in that game, which has happened to Charlotte. You know, the more, and they've been an amazing story, especially when you think they started 4-14 or whatever it was. But they're a little small and those, the, the bully teams seem to really enjoy going against them. And I starting to wonder if Detroit would just be a bad matchup for them. I, I might've been too low on Detroit. I especially like we did our scariest playoff, like scariest ceiling of a playoff team. I feel a little differently about Detroit than I did a couple weeks ago.

Well, the way they weathered the Cade injury was tremendous and they're just, they're, they're just, I think everyone is focused, rightfully so, on the outside shooting and do they have enough, do they have enough secondary creation, all that. Jenkins has potentially answered at least a bit of like the, can anyone but Cade create some offense for us off the dribble? Yeah. We'll see how he holds up in the playoffs, but they just get by with just cutting, toughness, size, rebounding, and their defense is legit top to bottom. They're, they're really good. And like, they, they, to your point about where they had, where we had 'em in the scariest draft, like their offense may never reach scary levels, but you're just not gonna beat them in a short series. Like even if they lose to Boston or lose to the Knicks, or it's gonna be like a long nasty series. And that tends, I think that just favors them 'cause they're just bigger and meaner and tougher than a lot of these other teams and they wear you down.

I think one other thing happened with them. So I was thinking about it Friday night 'cause I really thought Charlotte was gonna show up Friday night. And I didn't bet on it, but I, I just felt like, you know, coming off the fight, it's in Charlotte. This would be a nice little test for the Hornets. Like they're playing for stuff and Detroit really big boyed them. I wonder like in the last month or so, 'cause this, this happens in, this is more of a football thing than a basketball thing, but in football there's always the nobody believes in us team, especially when we get toward the playoffs and there's this team that gets a chip on their shoulder 'cause they feel like they're not being, Respected basketball, it's a little tougher 'cause I think for the most part it's really tough to, if you play like shit, you're probably gonna play like shit in the playoffs. And if you're really erratic in the regular season, you're probably gonna be, Miami's really the only team that's been able to pull off the nobody believes in us thing over the last 10 years and a real chip on their shoulder and a switch.

I think Detroit has that now. I think they're, they just seem pissed off to me. Like, I don't know if you read or heard any of the stuff from the Charlotte game, but like, Durant didn't want to do any sort of postgame anything, like handshakes. The game ended and like, we're off the floor. Like, they were still mad about the fight stuff.

I like that.

So I wonder, like, and then Cade goes out and everybody's like, well, Detroit's done. Cade's out. They're not going to, they're going to lose the number one seed. They didn't. I just think there's, I've been reading between the lines, reading stuff on them. And I think they, there's an edge to them now that I'm not sure they had at the start of the season.

Yes. I mean, they, they are the nobody believes in us team, which is ironic 'cause they're the number one seed. I felt like JJ Redick tried to nudge the Lakers into that when he was like, everybody is, everybody wants to play us. It's like, yeah, man, with no Luka and Reeves, you can probably, you can probably get why that is. You don't get to be the nobody believes in us team. But Detroit, Detroit has a point. They have a point. People think they're young, shooting challenged, all that. Cade got hurt. I thought they were safe for the number one seed. I didn't think they were gonna lose that at all. But they, they have a point and I, I'm very excited to watch them in the playoffs. I, if they roll in the first round and, and come like guns blazing in the second round for Cleveland or whatever, that's gonna be a lot of fun.

They have a great crowd at home. They're gonna have home court. They got something with Jenkins that they didn't have before the All-Star break where they've turned Jenkins now into a real asset. You know, those Cade minutes, Cade, they got, to play a couple games here heading into the playoffs so he is not just coming in, looked good, flat. I will say though, this is, I want to mention this, as you know, I'm the unofficial czar of professional sports. I think this is another great case for the one seed in each conference. It should be 5 games at home, 2, 2, 3, because for Detroit, so let's say Philly loses to Orlando. And now they have to play Philly in round 1, but maybe Embiid can come back. Like, I'd, I'd wonder who they would want to pick out of the Philly, Orlando, Charlotte, Miami. Or what if Charlotte ends up being the 8th seed and they're like, fuck, and Boston gets Philly and Orlando's out. It just feels like there should be some advantage toward being first that I don't think we have.

You're preaching to the preacher. I think the number 1 seed should get to pick its own opponent. I think I'm fine with the 5-2 home court thing in the first round. If you play the whole 82-game season in an era where teams are not really playing the whole 82-game season for good reasons, for bad reasons, and you come out number one, and in Detroit's case, number one by a pretty hefty margin in the East, you should get a big, a bigger reward than you get. And by the way, Detroit played its guys every game down the stretch. They didn't have to do that. They did it because I think they pride themselves on, we want to stay in rhythm, we want to stay in peak physicality, and we want to deliver, like, we want to go in the playoffs feeling like we didn't leave anything on the table and we're going in like full blast. And I, I, I was fun.

You know, I wonder at the end of the year if, if a team should get a trophy from like the Adam Silver Trophy or something for just like, I'm just proud of you guys that you gave a shit for every, every week. Thank you. Thank you for being a role model of how the league should work. You guys really cared the entire time. Here's another reason why they should get a 2-2-3. It's actually better for Boston the way the setup is now because the 7-8 game happens and Boston's going to know from that point on who their opponent's going to be, right? They have 4 days. But if you're Detroit, now you have to wait for the 8-9. Like, it could be like, let's say Charlotte versus Orlando for the 8-9. And you're not going to know until— when's the game? Friday night?

Something like that.

And then we go on Sunday. So you have the number 1 seed allegedly with a huge advantage, not knowing who they're gonna play on a Friday morning, having to scout 2 teams. It seems stupid to me. Phoenix-Portland is the other 7-8. And as we said before, genuinely think Portland could win this. Scoot Stock, by the way, my accountant just called like a half hour ago, asked if I saw the crossover in the first half when he just went right to the rim and looked like Derrick Rose. I said I did. But Scoot, Scoot again looked pretty good. Avdiya looks great. The center— the team has a nice vibe. Not like, you know, if they win the set, if they are able to win the 7th seed and put them against San Antonio, it's not nothing. I don't think they'd win. But if I'm San Antonio, I'm like, All right, this kind of sucks. I thought we were gonna play Phoenix.

Is either team that pleasant to play against? I mean, that's kind of a rock fight between two mediocre offenses and tough physical defenses. Lots of turnovers, lots of fouls. San Antonio is above, should be above caring about this and should wipe out either of those teams in a playoff series. But Portland's frisky. I've also held onto some Scoot stock over the years, not as much as you, so I've been happy to see that. and I'll, I'll pick all the play-in, all the play-in games on my pod either tomorrow or Thursday or whenever, whatever's left. I'll, I'll pick 'em. And I, 'cause it's, it's folly to pick one game, but it's also fun. I very well might pick Portland to win that game in Phoenix.

I have a FanDuel line. You were correct. Suns 4.5. You claim you're not a gambling guy and you're just picking lines exactly.

Look at me.

Portland is +152.

I don't know what that means.

I like it. That means if you bet $100 on them, you'd win $152 if they win.

Okay.

So, and then the Magic Sixers, Sixers are 1-point favorites, and then the Clippers are -3.5 against the Warriors.

Magic Sixers may be the play-in game I'm least excited about in the history of the play-in that doesn't involve the Chicago Bulls.

Interesting. Didn't we have an Atlanta-Charlotte play-in game at one point? I feel like that was worse.

But those, any game involving those two teams is just gonna be, there's gonna be goofy offense. Somebody might score 145. Yeah. LaMelo will take some crazy shots. There's always fun stuff going on in those games.

Well, the 9/10 Charlotte-Miami, which is really the, one of the worst rivalries we have. That would be a fun thing. Top, top 5 worst rivalries. Charlotte-Miami. How many times do you think they played in a playoff series. They're in the same division.

I mean, they played once. It was a 7-game ugly, ugly series back in the day with, with—

3 times. 2001, Charlotte won 3-nothing. 2014, Miami sweep LeBron's last year. And then 2016, the aforementioned ugly 4-3 battle that Miami won. I think that was Nobody won.

Somebody just lost.

I'm gonna say Stephen Jackson's still there in Charlotte. No. Who was there in Charlotte too? Al Jefferson.

I think Big Al Kemba. Kemba's certainly there. Gerald Henderson's probably involved. Uh, yeah, there's, there's, there's—

How sad is it that this was 16 years ago? I don't remember anything about this series other than it went 7. I had an idea for this winner, Charlotte-Miami winner. Advances to the 8-9, loser has to take Terry Rozier back. That's it. He's actually at the game. He's hanging above the arena like the World Wrestling— when they do the WWE, when they do the Money in the Bank belt, Terry Rozier is just in a strap hanging over the arena. And then after the game gets lowered down and rejoins one of the two teams. That's my, that's my, uh, My idea. I don't know if you're into it.

I mean, it's got to be the Rocheer Booby Prize Game. Look, if, if we're trying to gin up interest in the play-in, it's, it's got, it's not the worst idea you could come up with. It's certainly the most controversial. And probably Adam Silver is gonna listen to this and be like, why? Why did they have to say his name? Why?

Miami waived him 2 days ago. I know.

He's in the news. Can't, you can't hide from the news. NBA, you can't hide from the news.

We'd come back from commercial and they cut back up to him hanging over the court again. There's Terry Rocheer. He said, we're finding out where he goes.

Why is he on his phone?

What is he doing? I thought we disabled his wireless. And then Clippers, Golden State is the definition of an awesome playing game. Steph versus Kawhi, 2017. We're back, baby. The rematch. Kawhi's revenge. No, probably not.

You were so excited. You texted me so excited that you were going to get a Los Angeles home Steph Clippers game. I'm, I'm legitimately excited as if this was like 2014 Blake Griffin, the Sterling controversy, Chris Paul, young Warriors rising up. And I'm like, this, this might be the least exciting possible Clippers Warriors postseason matchup of the last 15. It is the least exciting, but it's still, it's still Steph Curry and it's still Kawhi Leonard who's gonna make second team All-NBA. Steph would've been right in that conversation too if he hadn't got hurt.

You know, it's sad because I knew you when you were an impressionable pup. You had wide eyes. You really loved basketball. Just the thought of Steph and Kawhi in a do-or-die game would have delighted you to no end. Now you've been on some studio shows. You're hanging out with Dwyane Wade.

Okay. All right.

And now it's like you're too— you're too good for— no, I'm good for Steph versus Kawhi. Uh, guess what? I'll tell you what, Zach Lowe. I'm showing up at like 5:30 for warmups. I'm gonna get there as soon as doors open. I'm in, I'm watching.

I would, I, and I will expect if you are there at 5:30, I will expect at least one tweet from the Body Language Doctor about Derrick Jones Jr.'s pregame warmup. How's Gee Santos? How's Gee Santos high five game in, in the warmup? Like, I, I just give me something, give me some insight.

I'm gonna do multiple IG posts. Getting ready. I want to watch Steph do the full court heave shot, whatever he does. If you're— two questions off this game really quick. Can Golden State win two in a row? I think it is conceivable, as lousy as they've been this year. Could they just beat the Clippers in Portland or Phoenix back to back? I think they could. Yeah, absolutely. If you're the Clips, do you wish you had Zubats in this game and you never made the trade, or you still love the trade?

Love the trade. Good value. And we'll see how the lottery, see how the lottery unfolds.

I think that's also the right answer. And part of that trade was they thought they were getting Niederhauser, who was a badass for like a week and a half and then got hurt. But I think that was part of the reason.

That's your guy now. And Matherin slumped to the finish line.

He did.

Has hurt both that trade for now and also his value in the offseason. It'll be interesting to see if the Clippers even, even resign him if the number gets to a point where they, are not comfortable with it.

I mean, it depends on what LeBron is gonna want when he switches teams.

Okay.

All right. How much money are they gonna have to have left over?

I'm not, I'm, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not gonna, I mean, do you, do you really, you really think there's a chance LeBron goes to the Clippers? I've, I've always been told through the years, hard no on the Clippers.

I've, I've said that as well. I'm just trying to torture the Clipper fans. Sorry.

Oh, they've been through enough. My God.

I gen— remember when I threw my Warriors theory at you with LeBron a while ago? I don't know, 6 weeks ago. I'm starting to become convinced that's going to happen. And I think it's The Expendables. Remember when Sly Stallone did the action movie when he got all the older action heroes back together?

Yeah.

And it was like, never saw it. Kind of an all-star team of older Dolph Lundgren was a bunch of people. I'm really convinced that that's how this plays out.

Look, they're looking at everybody, right? Like Stein, I think, broke the news that they looked at Kawhi at the trade deadline, which is true. I've now confirmed that that's true. And like, if they're just like, whatever, who can help Steph? Who's gettable? If we can't get Giannis, who, who can we get?

Heard some Giannis stuff too.

You did? It's been all over the, but with the Warriors or just how much of a disaster the trade situation is?

Trade preferences. Heard this. He doesn't want to be on the West Coast, which rules out my Portland theory that I was really excited about. Okay, that's what I heard. And I looked at a map to back up the information I was getting. Greece really is far from America, it turns out. That's what the map said. Not close, as it turns out. Greece, far away. Um, but when you're going from Greece to America The East Coast turns out closer to Greece than the West Coast. Do you want to talk Portland? Portland really far away. Portland's like, you're talking 19 hours from Greece.

I don't know. It's 19, but it's long. I'm glad that this is dawning on you. I was going to—

This dawned on me right away.

I was going to talk. I was going to ask if you wanted to talk about the Hungarian election today, if you really just want to get into some geopolitics, or do you want to just leave that over to the side?

Yeah. So, but on the flip side, suddenly a team like Charlotte, not that far from Greece.

Oh my God. Hey, look, they have, look, okay, we're, we're not doing this. I'm not, we're not doing this. We're not doing Giannis.

We're not doing the map and go down the eastward Eastern seaboard.

You know what I want? I want, first of all, the Bucks probably shouldn't care and don't care anymore. And number two, give me the guy who's like, you know what? I want Midwest. I like it here. Give me another Midwest team. Deal, deal me to Chicago. Let me go save the Bulls. Someone has to save Save them from themselves. I'll do it. It's 100 miles away. I'll do it.

I'm glad you mentioned the Bulls. One of 5 American cities with direct flights to Greece.

My least favorite major American airport, by the way. O'Hare. I hate O'Hare.

I think mine is probably Atlanta. It's just too big. I don't like when I have to get on a tram to go from one terminal to another. I don't like trams. I just want to, just want to land. You know what's an amazing airport? Burbank.

Never flown into Burbank before.

Burbank. We did San Francisco-Burbank. Amazing. You're like out and you're like in your car in a second. Uh, round one. Okay. So Boston versus Philly or Orlando. Those are the two choices. If we go upset watch, let's cross off OKC or San Antonio because no round 1 team is beating either of them.

Okay.

Upset teams. Minnesota beating Denver. Who is even favored in Lakers-Houston? I better look at that.

I, I, um, Lakers have home court. I would, I think Houston should be favored personally.

Houston is giant favorites, minus 900. So Lakers would be the upset in that. Cleveland, Toronto. So Toronto beating Cleveland, Atlanta beating the Knicks, or Detroit or Boston losing to the hodgepodge of teams. What is your most upsetty— where is upset watch going in your opinion for you?

I mean, I think of all those series, I'm gonna just park Lakers Rockets over here 'cause I don't— we'll see who's healthy, who's not. I, I, I'm tempted to say Minnesota. I just don't have enough confidence in the state of their team over the last month. I, I guess, I guess Knicks, I guess Knicks-Hawks, 'cause I think the Hawks are, are interesting. I will pick the Knicks to win that series, but I think the Cavs who have had their playoff bugaboos over the years kind of lucked into a, a good matchup for them in the first round that they should be able to just, no matter if Harden comes out and has a bad game or Jared Allen gets pushed around on the boards or whatever usual stuff happens to them. That should just be a series they should win. So I guess I would say the Knicks.

I would as well, 'cause I just don't think Toronto has it in them to beat Cleveland. I think that would have to be a real collapse. I will say Cleveland fits a lot of the recipe you would want for a playoff upset because of their defense. Like, that's just a great way to lose a series, not being able to guard anybody and giving up a bunch of threes. I'm trying to think which team would have a better chance of upsetting Detroit, and I think it's probably Charlotte, even though we just litigated how small they looked in that. But just the Charlotte 3-point shooting, the longer that series goes, if they just got hot, I would start to get scared after a while. Plus, you're in a situation where LaMelo, I don't think he would be, but it's conceivable he could be the best player in a series. Right. I'm not saying he would be, I'm saying it's at least in play.

It's in play. I, I, I keep trying to talk myself into what I thought the, the magic would be in the preseason. Like Franz is back, Anthony Black is back. They've got their full complement of players. They have a scary upside. Their defense has been top 8 in the last couple years. Not this year, it slipped backwards. Their offense is actually better, but it's still kind of a mess. But they have all these guys, they're all healthy, and it's just Too much has happened. Too much has gone wrong. There's just too much eh there. And they should be, they should be the answer to this question. Even with as well as Charlotte has played, the fully healthy Magic who had a 50.5 over-under before the season should be the answer to this question. And they're just, they just aren't.

We did bad on the over-unders. It was the worst I've ever done. Now granted, you have, I, no, but here's the thing. And I'm not making excuses. I think all the tanking really screwed up some of the record stuff, like some of the stuff that normally works. Even like one of— I had the, the unders for Washington and Brooklyn, I think, for— because I just thought they're trying to tank.

I think we all did.

The problem is with this many teams trying to tank, they end up playing each other a bunch of times. So you had teams getting wins that didn't even want to win. That happened, the Milwaukee, um, the Milwaukee, Dallas, Golden State, those situations being weird. It was just an awful year. But now I'm really, I'm motivated to make a comeback. I have some, uh, playoff odds for you on FanDuel. Knicks -255 for the series over Atlanta. So I, that's a little low. I, I would've said 3 to 1, but -255. Atlanta +215 to win that. And then Cleveland is -480. Against Toronto. Toronto is +370 to take that. And then Minnesota, Denver. What do you think the— you know nothing about odds, but what do you think the odds are for that Minnesota, Denver?

Based on all the numbers you just threw out on those other series, I'll say like Denver -500.

Denver -330.

Okay, so the— so faith in— faith in the Wolves, my stealth contender, who All, first of all, stealth means stealth, right? Like low chance but possible. Stealth is a keyword and also matchup dependent. And they've just walked into a nightmarish path to get anywhere in the playoffs. 330 is a little lower than I expected given Ants up, you know, in and outta the lineup. Jayden has just come back and I, that, that's a little lower than I would've thought. I agree.

I think there's some pedigree stuff with Minnesota. The two conference finals, which I think is meaningful. Okay, enough foreplay. It's time.

Okay, 50 minutes of foreplay.

Last year we did it. This will go faster this year. Our 25 most intriguing people in the 2026 playoffs. We did this last year and somehow picked 28. Oh, Highlights of last year. We, we did categories. Um, so it's basically a draft. We're going back and forth and drafting, but you have to draft a player for a specific category. And here are those categories, America. Apex superstar, beloved bench guy, crossroads guy, meaning somebody who is at the crossroads of his career, crossroads with his team, whatever. Defensive stud. Feel-good star, hot seat coach, hot seat wildcard. Could be coach or player.

Legacy guy. I didn't know that could be a player too.

It can be a human being.

Okay.

Could be an owner.

Oh my God.

Legacy guy, second banana, third banana, the leap. Last year I took Tyrese Halliburton as my leap guy and he made a huge leap. Trade machine guy, somebody we're coming outta the playoffs, we're like, that guy's getting traded. Weak link. And then we each get a bonus guy who has to be mentioned. So I gave you the first pick. You have to pick somebody and then stick him in one of those categories. So it's your most intriguing player assigned to a category. Let's go.

So you're expecting me to come in here and get Wemby or Jokic or SGA? 'Cause you know, I, I guess I want to win this, right? Like, there's— I don't know how one wins this, but you think I'm going to take one of these names and I'm not. I am going to, for the crossroads category, I'm starting here. I am taking Donovan Mitchell in the crossroads category. And I just think he's had a fascinating career. He's made the playoffs every year of his career and has never made the conference finals.

His team—

and it's not on him. People say like he's never made the conference finals. His teams have never made the conference finals. He's had some great series, he's had some clunkers. His teams, particularly in Utah, have had, and both, both Utah and Cleveland have had some like pretty epic flameouts. I think in all, I think he's been in the playoffs 8 times already, 8 for 8. His teams have won, I think just 1 series where you could say they beat a team as good as them or maybe a little bit better. And that was his rookie year when they beat the Thunder with Paul George and Russ. In the, in the first round in 6 games. They had the same record that year. Other than that, they've lost to their peers. They've lost to a couple teams that who they're worse than. They haven't beaten anyone who's better than them. And look, Cleveland's obviously had a kind of a checkered history with this core. They exchanged one member of it, Darius Garland, for James Harden. Donovan Mitchell's the guy I trust the most of, of Cleveland's best players. Like I expect him to be great in the playoffs.

He's been great in the playoffs. He's been at times like the only Cavalier you felt you could count on in the, in the playoffs. But it's just like, I, I kind of want to see him make, make a, a run longer than he's been, 'cause he's been such a consistently great player. And it's a crossroads pick for me also because like if they, if they disappoint in the playoffs again, they've already traded one of these guys. I just don't, he's not like up for, you know, he's not a flight risk anytime soon. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like there just comes a point, you've seen it with the Clippers, the Chris Paul, Blake Griffin Clippers where like if you just lose too many times too early in the playoffs for what your pedigree should be, it just starts to go sideways a little bit. And I think Cleveland is kind of nearing that point. And Donovan Mitchell, it just, it's, I, I want to see a deeper playoff run, that's all.

And he's had some bad losses. I, I think The last couple years were bad, but the, the Clippers-Utah one were— didn't Kawhi, how many? I can't remember. 'Cause that was during the— Kawhi got hurt halfway through the series and they still lost.

They were up 2-0, they lost 4 games in a row. And the 6th game is Terrence Mann having like an out-of-body experience and hitting a million threes and just— and the other, the, the next year when Utah limped out of the Gold Bear Mitchell era, Luka was hurt for part of that series and they still couldn't beat the Mavs.

That was the Brunson. Hmm. Maybe he could be, have his own team. I thought that was a really good pick.

Thank you.

I had, uh, I ironically had Mitchell third on my list, not first, but I had him third and I saw the case.

I don't, I don't have for, for that category or for just your whole list. Um, But just make your pick.

I would've, no, I would've put him either Legacy or Crossroads. Here's the thing with Mitchell. We've, we've gone through this a couple times with players. How far can we go with this guy? Chris Paul, you mentioned him. He got in there. I think Dame was in there too. Even though Dame did get to the Conference Finals in that really weird Golden State-Houston year when Durant got hurt, all that, you know, and then they got swept. But I, I don't think anyone felt like that was a Conference Finals team. Westbrook, I think, was another one. We're like, what? How far are we going with this? And I think Mitchell is certainly a better, higher upside player than, than, than Westbrook was. On paper, he seems like somebody who should be able to be the best guy on at least a conference finalist. I also think if it doesn't happen this year, I wouldn't be surprised if he's on another team next year, which is why Crossroads, I think, was the right pick for them. I think we both agree if this, if something bad happens to this team in one of the first two rounds, I'm prepared for any outcome with any guy in that roster.

Absolutely. Nothing, nothing would shock me if they lose. I mean, God forbid they lose in the first round. I expect them to win that series. But if Detroit just, we've seen different versions of Cleveland, but with this same front line, we've seen them get out-physicaled and out-toughed in the playoffs before by big burly teams, notably the Knicks. If that would happen again in a Detroit series, I just, all, all bets are off.

Yeah, because you could even see, I don't know, I, I noticed the luxury tax bill came out. 7 teams paid the luxury tax. The Cavs had the highest luxury tax bill. I think it was $68 million. I don't think they're doing that again. And then you look at some of the desperate teams around the league that would want to make a big splash, and we'll see. Mitchell always, like, it always seemed like he was supposed to go to the Knicks, went to, went to school in Greenwich, like famously wanted to be in the East Coast and then just kind of ended up on Cleveland. I've always been suspicious of that. And maybe Brooklyn, how many years in a row are the Cis just gonna be like, yeah, we were gonna suck again. Like at some point they're gonna have to make a real run at having a team.

Well, they don't have to pick, they don't control their pick next year, which makes them kind of a wild card in the offseason. Look, I, I expect, like Donovan Mitchell has re-signed with Cleveland at the, at the moment when he could. He's got multiple years left on his deal.

Yeah, we know that doesn't mean anything though.

No, but he's also like, I, I don't want to make this too much of a panic thing. He's got a lot of years left on his deal. He said all the right things. He's been happy there. Who people tend to get less happy when their teams, he's got, he's actually, he's only got next year and a player option left on his deal. He's also showing up for them in the playoffs when other people on their team were injured or didn't show up. So you gotta give him credit for that. But yeah, this is a big, be a big moment for him and for the Cavs.

He had a really good season. If Luka is ruled ineligible, which we're just never gonna find out if he's eligible or not, if he is ruled ineligible, I think Mitchell's gonna be my 5th guy on that team.

How about this? If we're gonna take forever to make these rulings and we're gonna have to litigate this, why— remember the NBA awards show when they tried to make that a thing and like kept all the awards secret for the awards show? Yeah. Red carpet. And then they pretend like that just never happened and we never tried that. Let's never talk about it. Bring it back. If it's going to take forever, let's all get together again in July and give out some awards. We could get the lawyers can come out like the Ernst and Young guys and announce it and talk. Who knows?

I'm going to take in my apex superstar spot. I'm going to take Wemby, and I do think I, I liked your Mitchell case. I had Wemby first on my ballot. I think he is by far the most intriguing guy in these playoffs. I wrote down in my notes, is this his 1975 Jaws moment? It's just, just the moment when we are releasing a summer blockbuster and it's gonna make a kajillion dollars and be known as one of the best films of its kind. And, um, And we're always going to remember this was the year it came out, or we're going to wait a year or 2 years. Who knows? I've just— I'm old enough to remember when it seemed like Samson or Olajuwon were going to be around forever, and that lasted a year. I never trust any sort of long-term anything when big guys are involved. And I know right now he has a really good team that's been kicking ass since January 1st. He was the best player I saw in person this year. I'm not voting for him for MVP, but he was the best single performance I saw in person this year.

My questions are, can he play 35 to 37 minutes a game in the playoffs, which I think he's going to have to do for this team to win. And you're going to have to rip through this Denver, OKC, whoever comes out of the East gauntlet, win 4 in a row. My question for you, if they make the finals and he's age 22, But they lose in the Finals. Is that season still a huge win for him? Because I would say it is.

Oh my God. Yeah, absolutely. Even though you, you, you talk it out and you think they lost to an Eastern Conference team in the Finals, they'd be favored to get to, to get to the Finals with this young group of guys and a couple of veterans would be a massive win. Great pick. I'm jealous you got Wemby. He also doesn't really fit any other category. Like he's too young for the legacy guys. He's too good for the defensive stud category. He's already made the leap. I'm don't— there's probably another leap coming, but that it just, this is the only category you can really, maybe feel-good star could be, but he doesn't feel right for that. So you got him in the right category.

The other thing that we should just mention really quick and why, you know, I'm always excited for the NBA playoffs, trying to think of the last time a new guy was in the playoffs that was kind of can't miss. I don't care who San Antonio plays every round. I'm not missing a minute of the Spurs in the playoffs. And I think the last guy was probably Curry out of the new guys. Obviously going back to the 2000s, there were others, but when Curry— and we were working together at Grantland, I think it was your first year— when Curry had kind of his breakout that year when they upset Denver and then they lost to San Antonio. And at some point during that, it became like, I'm not missing a Curry playoff game anymore, just period. And I feel that way about Wemby. I think Wemby, out of all the guys that are in the playoffs, I don't want to miss Wemby or Jokic, 1 minute of any playoff game with those guys.

I felt that way about Luka when he first cracked the playoffs with Dallas and he lived up to the hype.

That's good. I should've mentioned him. Yeah, you're right. That's good, Luka. But it was, was it in the bubble?

First playoff?

Yeah, you're right. In the, yeah, in the bubble. You're right. That's a good call. My apologies to Luka. All right, you have the next pick.

All right, I'm gonna pick Jokic and I have him in the legacy category.

That's the right category.

And I think it's, it's the right pick. And for just this, just this reason only, and I was hoping the seeds would fall this way for this pick because he is a 3-time MVP. He probably should be a 4-time MVP. I don't think he's gonna win this year. He's gonna get closer. You're gonna get second again, probably. You, I think before the season said he's already one of the 10 greatest players of all time. I don't think that's premature to say that. And I went over this on my pod last week. If you look at all the guys who have won 3 or more MVPs, it's a very short list. Every one of them but Moses Malone has more than 1 ring. And I think that's one of the reasons why Moses Malone doesn't get mentioned enough in these like all-time great conversations. And that's nothing against Jokic who, if you replayed the '21 and '22 seasons with the fully healthy Nuggets, it feels like they get one of those titles potentially. Like one of those may have belonged to them. You can make the same argument about the Clippers, but it, it, at some point he's gonna, I don't know if he's gonna have to get a second ring to enter that kind of stratosphere 'cause he's just been this good.

I just think if he does, and if he does it this season by running through this gauntlet of teams, the entire conversation about him goes even up another level where some of the, the most hallowed names in the league begin to not only be mentioned alongside him, but maybe a little bit behind him. But that's, that's if, right? That's if. And at some point I do think he'll make another run to the finals. And if it's, if it's this year, we're gonna be having some pretty high-level conversations about him after the finals. Yeah, I think I put Adam Sweet through 2 picks.

No, that's— you made all the right points. I would've made all the same ones. Moses is a great comparison because he was the best player in the league for 5 years and had some bad luck with the teams he was on. Only won 1 title, only 1 Finals. He made the Finals with like a 40-41 team, but for 5 years he was the best guy in the league. Jokic has been the best guy in the league for this entire decade. He's either been 1 or 2 depending on who got super hot that year or whatever, whatever else is going on. I did a tweet this week about this weekend about if he's second in MVP, if he finishes number 2, which I think is conceivable, that he'd be the third player ever to be first or second in MVP for 6 straight years. The other 2 are Russell and Bird. There's only, he would be, I think, the 6th guy ever to just have 6 top 2 MVP finishes. And I think MVP finishes are super important. It's a good way to look at who actually had real impact. It's easy to be like, oh, this guy was amazing.

But go look at where did they stand in the season. This is the thing that is probably the worst for Curry's top 10 case is he kind of doesn't have enough like top 3, top 4 MVPs. If you're really putting him against everybody, it's the one thing you can ding him on. And for Jokic, it's the Finals. Where, by the way, years from now you look back and you go, he only won one title. What happened? And you weren't there to see how how devastated the Murray injury was, 'cause it took 2 playoffs away from him.

And the other thing I will say, I was out to dinner with some guys in Denver last night, Nuggets fans. They wanted the 3rd seed and they wanted the gauntlet. And I thought it was interesting why, I don't know if the, the team probably doesn't care about this, but they are so sick of hearing about how Denver had an easy road to the first championship, how they got to face 2 play-in teams along the way, including in the finals that they now want the, they, they're, they're not getting greedy. They're like, if we're gonna win it again, I wanna win it the hardest way possible. And, and it just got me thinking about not only Jokic and the MVP in history, but like if they actually did, did this against these teams, what it would mean for, for the whole franchise.

The gauntlet's good. I mean, my favorite Celtic team ever was the '87 team, the year after they won in '86 when they had to, they basically had a 7-game war against Milwaukee, a 7-game war against Detroit. And then they had to play the Lakers and they didn't beat the Lakers, but it was like, just that pulled the most out of them. They're almost broken down at the end and it was a real championship run. You know, this Nuggets team's a little younger. I think they could survive other things. I think there's more chances here, but Jokic just had the best year of his career and he is probably not gonna win the MVP. The offensive stats, I was doing all the work this weekend trying to figure out who to vote for. And the offensive stats are just like, you just can't even believe it. It's like, you're just like, you're just like, oh my God. Like true shooting. Just pick any stat. You're like, oh my God, this guy's created over, what do you, he 28 points a game and 12 assists created like over 50 points a game of offense.

And I'll say it, I'll say it again.

The defense is not, and was the best rebounder.

Their defense has not been good enough. In the last 20 games, whatever problematic, maybe it's a wait till the playoffs thing, maybe whatever. Like if you're, if you're just focusing on that, what you're missing is like they're making it look so easy on offense no matter who they play that it's a, it's actually a little bit scary. It's some of these games are like, it's like shooting fish in the barrel. It's, it's just too easy for them that if they actually ramp up their defense at all, like Peyton Watson gets healthy, whatever, they can absolutely win the title. It's just a hard road. So that's my, that's my pick.

Denver 12 to 1 to win the title. OKC is +125, San Antonio is +480, and the Celtics are +550. Cleveland is 10 to 1. That was the other one. Cleveland's odds dropped because of how the playoffs played out with Toronto, which I thought was interesting. Okay, really good pick. You're doing a great job. Thank you. Your scouting department should be proud. I have to take Tatum here. Oh, it's the most intriguing draft.

Okay.

And I'm gonna put him in the feel-good star category.

He was my number one pick for that category. I was actually gonna take, I might have, was gonna take him next round.

We don't need to talk about Tatum. Everybody knows the stakes. This was one of the craziest comebacks I've ever seen. And in some ways he's even better than he was before he left. In other ways he's not. Like, I thought that Knicks game, he had a lot of trouble going by and around Anunoby, which I thought was notable. Like, there's a certain way to defend him that I just don't think he's 100% comfortable with the first step yet. Everything else is back. The rebounding's back, the passing's back. And he's just so much better than I thought he was going to be. I was like, boy, it would be nice if he was a rich man Sam Hauser. And it's like, this guy's one of the 10 best rebounders in the league already and playing defense and the passing and, and, you know, just is a really meaningful athlete to Boston fans and Celtic fans and at the games and everyone's just really invested in this. So the longer it goes, I think it could be pretty special.

It's the right pick. He would've been a good second banana pick maybe the way this year has gone, but this is the right category for him. I was gonna take him next round, but you taking him in this round allows me to make the most obvious pick, but load up my roster. Apex superstar, apex superstar. 'Cause I took Jokic for legacy guy. Apex superstar. I'll just take SGA just sitting there, low hanging fruit. I'll take him. Everything I said about Jokic, legacy, what happens to him if he levels up? He's a, he's probably, I would say, gonna win his second MVP. If he finishes that with back-to-back titles, breaking the league's no-repeat streak and back-to-back Finals MVPs, we're talking like, I saw some tweets today, is he already one of the 25 best players in the league? That conversation's gonna go zoom in in a different, or is zooming higher than that if, if this postseason goes that way. So look, I got Jokic, I got SGA, I'm taking SGA picks and there's no other category for him. This is the only category. I think where he fits. So I'm taking him here.

I just did my pyramid. I just updated it for the playoffs and I have him in level 4 and I have him 30th.

Okay.

And I think that's the right area, but I think if they win a second title and he's 2-time back-to-back MVP, back-to-back titles, back-to-back Finals MVPs, he's in the top 25. And that's it. It's not arguable. That's just where he ends up because now we're talking about some real shit that only a handful of guys have done in the history of the league. Good pick. I have no notes. I also think he could have been, if there's a category of who could be dinged by these playoffs, that would've been an interesting one. Like if he just sucks in the San Antonio series or, you know, there's some, other outcomes. So then we're like some Ivan Drago, the Russian, or cut outcomes, which you could feel a little bit in December when they played the Spurs a couple times. Like, huh, man. So, so if we have a 7'5" alien, we can stop this guy.

But that's the only time you felt that way.

And I just, only time.

I just never worry about him having a bad game. And even his bad games were like, oh, he shot 8 for 21. And still got 10 free throws and finished with 29 points. And, and then, you know, the next game he's gonna play, but he just never has 2 bad games in a row. Defense is a constant. Anyway, that's an obvious pick.

I changed my mind on my MVP pick 230 times this weekend. Forgot to tell you.

Are you gonna finish that story or are you just gonna leave it hanging there?

Still haven't decided. Okay, this is for my weak link pick.

Oh boy, you're getting negative.

No, you know what, I'm gonna go hot seat wildcard.

Oh, I'm jealous because I, I have, I'm gonna, I have two guesses for who you're gonna pick and I'll just pick the other one later.

De'Aaron Fox.

Oh, you went not coach. Okay.

Went not coach. Okay. Hot seat wildcard, De'Aaron Fox. I've talked about this on the pod in the past. Don't need to belabor it, but this is the guy to watch on this Spurs team as we start climbing levels and seeing how high they can go. Somebody who used to be one of the best clutch guys in the league, who had the offense running through him in the Kings, who now has to figure out when to pick his spots on this team with a 7-foot-6 alien on it. And I, there's been some signs, some uh-oh signs for me watching them. If I, like, if I'm a Spurs fan, the ball seems to find him a lot in big moments, and I'm not always sure he's gonna deliver. And I'm just really interested to see how it plays out because ultimately when you go in these playoffs and you'll see it like when it's, Hawks-Cat, when it's Hawks-Nicks, ultimately that game's gonna come down to CJ versus Jalen Brunson, right? And if you're a Hawks fan and you're in these tight games with 3 minutes left, you're gonna have this epiphany where you're like, fuck, we have CJ who's a good player and they have Jalen Brunson who's second team All-NBA.

We're kind of at a disadvantage here. If Fox is the guy deciding offense for them, but now I'm going against Jokic or SGA, I just don't like my chances as much. And I think it's, it's a lot of pressure for him. And he could be the lightning rod if things don't go well in a series, especially when we have 48, 48 hours, 72 hours between games. And he has like a 3-for-16, 0-for-6 from 3, game 4, start of SportsCenter, start of all the shows, start of all the pods. What's up with De'Aaron Fox? Should they bench him? Just interested to see how it goes if it goes wrong. And it might not go wrong.

Yeah, the, the should we bench him feels a little far-fetched to me.

Um, in the podcast era, what are you talking about?

Okay, fair.

Um, in the, in the hot take studio show era, that, that will absolutely be a topic.

I'll, I'll just say this, like, I had him on the list for my candidates for the Trade Machine pick. Um, the problem there being he has 4 years left on his contract after this at a gigantic number. I've actually been completely fine with how he's played this year. I, I dipping down to 33% from 3 is a little disappointing given he started higher than that. I think he's just done a good job at fitting in and not forcing anything and gradually developing a, a better chemistry with Wemby. I don't think he's ever gonna be tasked with, okay man, now we need, like, we need to run every offensive possession through you. It's crunch time. You were clutch player of the year 2 years ago, 3 years ago, whatever. I don't think this team is built like that and that's fine. But he's being paid a salary of that level of player for many years going forward. And the Spurs, although they're thrilled to have this sort of like present all-star De'Aaron Fox now, two young guards rising up behind him, nobody's overtaxed, the young guys don't have to do too much. At some point that equation starts to wobble when the young guys get ready and expensive and it just, it's only natural.

And you know, you just never know when the time is gonna come. So he was on my list for that category and I don't, I don't disagree with a lot of your reasoning. I also just don't worry about him much in terms of like underperforming.

Yeah. And from an aggregation standpoint, I, I'm glass half full on Fox with this team. I'm just trying to look at if things start to go wrong, what would people point at? And that seems to be the one. But I, I actually like him on this team. And I think if they didn't have him, you would still want a guy like him. Somebody who's a little older, somebody who's been in some situations. He's competitive. I think he's a, you know, he's a legitimately good point guard and this is an awesome spot for him. They actually need him. They need him at the end of games. You know, they, he's, he's just gotta figure out how do I pick my spots and how much do I take over? How much do I defer? And it's, I don't envy him because he'll be the lightning rod if it doesn't work out. All right, you're up.

I'm deciding if I want to make a good pick. Or just an annoy you pick. And I think I'm gonna just annoy you.

Okay.

And take Peyton Pritchard as my beloved bench guy, just so you can't have him. And, and, and obviously he's been phenomenal all season, whether he started or come off the bench. His paint game, one-on-one game is reaching Paul Bunyan level proportions at this point. And he's massively important to arguably the best team in the Eastern Conference. So I will take him off the board. For you?

I was delighted that he had a really good Knicks game against a team that he has always sucked against. I thought that was weirdly important that he finally put one on the board, 'cause they're gonna definitely see him. All right, let's get crazy. My next pick is Jalen Williams.

Which one?

J Dub. You know what? I'm not going to get that crazy now. Fuck it. I'm going to take him as my trade machine guy. I like it. Just for fun. Just for shits and giggles. Just for fun.

It's not just for fun. Don't do that. You got something brewing in your head.

OKC has a lot of money to spend over these next couple years, and I just, sometimes I wonder, like, if it doesn't work out for them this year, how does that play out? And I also couldn't think of another place to put him because I didn't want him as my second banana. Look, he's looked good lately. I don't think there's a lot to worry about here, but I also think it's going to be really hard to have 3 max guys plus Kayson Wallace plus all these draft picks. And I do wonder, like, if you're gonna take a huge swing, what, what is, what does that look like? Now if they win the title again, they're not trading anybody, but who knows? I'm just trying to loosen the draft up.

Well, look, there, there's a reason why it's like a stool softener pick.

I'm just loosening things up.

My, there's a reason my trade machine list is loaded with guys on the Thunder that are not J Dub, but are like Dort and you know, Wallace and AJ Mitchell, just guys that, you know, they can fling around the league. I'm not gonna go to that category now. I'm gonna go chalk. And in my second banana category, for reasons that need not, not to be elaborated on at all, I will pick Carl Anthony Towns as my second banana. Intriguing for the playoffs. Team is built to win now. Team fired its coach despite its first Conference Finals appearance in forever. Up and down season. He seems to be the subject of a team-wide existential crisis every two weeks. Has actually finished strong enough that I would put him third team All-NBA right now. His defense has been, this has been a pretty solid defensive couple couple of months for him. And you just know that by game, maybe by game 2 of the first round, there we will have an existential crisis of like, why did he only take 4 shots in the last 3 quarters of that game? Or why are they not running the Brunson Towns pick and roll enough?

Which they've been running a lot lately. And we, we shall see how it goes against the Hawks. But he, he's had ups and downs in the playoffs to say the least. I think he's turned some corners in that regard over the last couple years and got a little more consistent, made some huge shots last year along the way. But he's still one of the more enigmatic second banana types in the league, and I'm proud to have him on my roster.

You and I both know a lot of Knicks fans and you live in Connecticut, so you're around them. Probably 50% of texts I get from Knicks fans are about Towns, but sometimes like positive, like excited that they think Towns Good things are happening with Towns. He's figured it out.

I think this Atlanta matchup, I think this Atlanta matchup is a, is a good matchup for him. I don't think it's a great matchup for the Knicks relative to what they could have drawn.

Yeah.

But it'll be interesting to see how the Hawks guard him. But if they guard him like they guarded him the last time they played last week, it's a good matchup for him. And the Knicks should lean into his offense more. So I'm optimistic. This is an optimistic, hopeful, Pick of cat.

I am a, I need to get this guy off the board before you take him. It's a little early and I'm taking him for third banana, but I also think he's super intriguing for these playoffs because I think he's a ceiling changer.

I think you're gonna take my guy.

Yeah, I sure am. You can say hi to him in Denver right now. Aaron Gordon. Oh, it is. Oh no.

Okay.

Yeah. Yes. He's the superpower of this Denver team. He looks like he's back and you could, and Jokic physically looks like he's back. And I think this might be the most healthy they've had all three of those guys at the same time playing well that I can remember since they won the title. So for That was 3 years ago. He's just, it feels like he just gets slightly better every year. And there's been guys like this over NBA history that just as they get older, they age like a fine wine. And he's one of them. I just feel like every year he's gotten 5% better. So that's my third pick. Yeah.

I mean, he, needless to say, he was my number 1 choice for this category and I've almost already taken him twice and I'm angry that you took him. I'm glad I got Peyton Pritchard. Maybe I'll start just taking, maybe I'll just make a run of Celtics despite you.

Maybe just, just get resentful.

Maybe I'll take, maybe I'll take Ugo now as my defensive stud just to, just to spite you.

Wow. I'm not gonna do that.

Yeah. No, I'm not, I'm not doing that. Let's see, let's see, let's see. I'm gonna go back-to-back bananas.

Okay.

And for my third banana, I will go back-to-back Knicks. I guess one could argue if he's the true third banana, but the other noisy Knick dialog is all about Mikael Bridges because of the 5 first-round picks, because of the like last 6 weeks where it's like, did he not crack double figures again? And just, they need him to be not only a more reliable scorer, but a more But when they're flowing, he's just more involved in the offense, both as a secondary ball handler, as like a, a playmaker in open space. He's just more involved and they're gonna need that version of him. And just like KAT, if they don't get it, like just in general, if this playoffs goes poorly for the Knicks, if they lose to the Hawks in the first round, which is not impossible, if they lose to Boston in the second round, there'd be no shame in that, right? Like Boston's been the best team in the East for the last 40 games. It's a good matchup for the Knicks, but there'd certainly be no shame in it. However, there would certainly be like an organization-wide stain of we fired the coach and did this really dramatic stuff and took and, and are out a round earlier and we traded 5 first-round picks for this guy and Giannis is still sitting out there.

I just feel like there's gonna be a lot of Mikael Bridges noise. And so he's gonna be, you know, Anunoby could be a third banana for them. I'm taking Mikael Bridges.

Interesting. I feel like Anunoby's their third banana, but maybe in the playoffs it becomes Bridges. I don't know. I guess they're both third bananas. Maybe, maybe they're on that team. They're both third bananas, I guess, to be fair.

That's the sometimes real and sometimes theoretical strength of the Knicks is they just have a lot of very good players. And yeah, he's one of them. He's certainly given the ball handling load he showed he could take in Brooklyn. Is sort of more tailor-made for like a banana 2.5 kind of role that he just hasn't played enough for them. So you can tell that I'm just, the Knicks are just the most interesting puzzle to me in the NBA. Them or the Cavs. And so it's not a coincidence that I've drafted two Knicks.

Well, there's also, there's storylines with them that include they haven't won the title since 1973. They are looming as as a semi-blow-it-up team. They're looming as a Giannis possible destination. They're looming as a possible Donovan Mitchell destination. They're looming as just a destination. I'm prepared for anything with the Knicks if they lose in round 1 or round 2. Uh, I— listen, you started out really well in this draft, and the board has just been breaking for me perfectly ever since. And you know, like my Knicks picks, No, I do. I'm just excited that you left this guy on the board for me. For the hot seat coach category, Ime Adoka. I have not been impressed by the coaching of this team this year. The chemistry doesn't seem great. I think the offense has just been bizarre. I don't understand why they have— why Ime hasn't just said, I have to sink or swim with Reed Shepard because I don't have Fred VanVleet, and it's going to be impossible to win even 2 straight rounds without a real point guard. And he's just doing it his way. They put a staggering amount of miles and minutes on Amen Thompson, who led the league in minutes this year, and Kevin Durant, who's 37 years old.

Durant, who I think was like 7th in minutes.

They— no, they were 1, 2.

And they're hard minutes.

They were 1, 2 the last time I checked.

Oh Jesus. Hard minutes.

Like total minutes.

Right. It's not like he— Kevin Durant's running to the corner and just setting up shop, watching other people run the play. He's dribbling the ball up against people like Jaden McDaniels and shit like that. I don't understand half the shit this team has done all season. And I don't understand the Reed Shepherd thing at all. I don't care if he's weak for you on defense. You're putting miles and unnecessary crunch time issues on your team. And it's like, if Reed— you took Reed Shepherd third, either, either he, he has something or he doesn't, but you have to find out this year. You're not winning the title. So I, I just don't understand it, and I would be very unsurprised if if he was not their coach next year. Remember for this category last year, I took Tom Thibodeau.

You did.

And you did a triple take backwards and I was proven correct.

I think they're, they've backed into it. Not that they've won 9 out of 10, they haven't backed into anything, but they have a good first round matchup. And I think if they win a playoff series and play a pretty honestly competitive second round playoff series, despite all the offensive infrastructure stuff that we spent all year talking about, the crunch time disasters and whatever. With VanVleet injured and Finney-Smith being a complete nothing, I, I think they would— wow, they would walk him. And I think they'd be fine giving Ime another year. It's, it's a, it's not a completely off-the-wall pick.

What if, what if they lose to LeBron and the Lakers in round 1 in a series that Luka Dončić plays 2 games?

Or no, or no games. And by the way, would there be, would there be would, I mean, Ime has trash talked LeBron multiple times in games. I feel like he kind of wants to fight LeBron.

Yeah.

Like he just, there's, there's something there. And if they're losing, who the hell knows? It's not a, it's, it's a, yeah, that could be the first.

If, if Ime came off the, the two guys that could come off the bench and actually get into a fight with a player are him and Joe Mazzulla. I think Joe Mazzulla, anytime there's any sort of an altercation, I always worry. But this happened in 1975 in the finals when Al Adles came off the bench and fought Mike Riordan and got ejected, by the way. Okay, you're up.

I'm so excited. The leap. The leap. I could take this guy in multiple categories. I have a feel-good star that I want to take in that category, but you've already filled that category, I believe. So I'm strategically shoving this pick down the road. I know you wish you had this guy on your roster, so I'll take him in the leap category. Steph Castle, um, will be my, will be my leap guy, and I'll just pen him in.

Damn it.

I don't even need to explain it. The guy's my— he's might be like my favorite non-top-10 player in the league to watch. I just— everything about him is insanely entertaining to watch, and I know one thing, Can nitpick his shooting, nitpick his turnovers, can't nitpick his passing, can't nitpick his assist passing, can't nitpick his paint scoring. Yeah. One thing I know for sure is that dude is not afraid of anything that's about to hit them in the playoffs. He wants all of it. He's not afraid of any player. He's not afraid of any opponent. He's not afraid of any scheme. He's not afraid of having a, oh, he shot, he started 0 for 8 in his first career playoff game. Is he gonna get rattled?

No.

No, he's not. So he's my leap guy.

I spent a half hour making sure it wasn't absurd to put him on third team All-NBA, and the answer was it's not. I would encourage anyone questioning whether he should be on an All-NBA team with all the guys that are now missing, see him in person once. It, it all makes sense if you see him in person. I didn't, and Count league pass too, 'cause I watched a lot of Spurs this year 'cause of Wemby. I never saw that guy take a split second off. Even today in that Denver game, there was a stretch where he was just getting offensive rebounds with— they were surrounded by all these taller guys and he just kept jumping up over people and getting offensive rebounds and giving them to people. I love Steph Castle. That's a really good pick. I did have him. Okay. Gonna have to do it. You did this last year, so I don't feel like I'm cheating. And if you want me to just confine it to one player, that's fine.

No, do what you want to do.

This is for the Crossroads guy. And again, they might not even be in the playoffs for all we know, but I'm taking Paolo and I'd like to really take him with Franz. Just because I feel like if this week goes badly for Orlando, I do not think these two guys will be teammates next year and they will just have to make some hard decisions. I think this is a stealth Giannis team. I think it's a stealth, hey Sacramento, you give us the 4th pick in the draft and we'll give you Paolo. Let's, let's dance. I'm just prepared for anything with this, but I think they would have to take a hard look at whether it makes sense to build a team around these two guys together.

I think they already probably have and are doing it pending, not even pending the playoffs. I had him, I was gonna take him in my trade machine pick for all the reasons you outlined.

Okay.

I'm fine with, you can have both him and Franz. He was a little too young for me in the crossroads category. And has always, by the way, Paolo has always shown up big in the playoffs. And I think that's one of the good, that's one of the interesting reasons to take him here after a pretty spotty regular season. The last couple months have been better than the ones that came before it. Fit with Franz is still kind of TBD. But on undermanned teams, that dude is always showing up and not just in a like, oh, he had to take 30 shots and he got a pretty inefficient 35 points. Like he's showing up on both ends of the floor and played pretty well. And that guy is still in there obviously. So it's, it's a good pick. And I had him on my, my trade list.

Yeah. 'Cause they could lose to Philly and they could lose to Charlotte and be outta the playoffs on Friday night. And at that point, the wheels on the trade machine will come off. All right, you're up.

It's time for another spite pick.

Mm-hmm.

I contemplated him for Leap.

Okay.

Defensive stud. I will take Derek White.

Mm.

Another one of my favorite players to watch in the league. Unrelenting, uh, makes every decision correctly. Would've been in my All-NBA conversation had he shot the ball a little better. I saw Pina put him on. I just don't think you could put a guard who takes this many threes and doesn't make enough of them on an All-NBA team, even with all these guys missing. But he's on the fringes of the conversation, and I think he, if he shot 39% from 3 or something, I think he, he's that good at everything else. And just an all-time great defensive guard for a team that again has legit Finals ambitions.

Do you have him first team All-D?

I do not. I have him second team.

Yeah. It's funny because this is an intriguing draft and I think he belongs in the draft for the reasons you just mentioned, but also because much like the Aaron Fox on the Spurs, he could be the guy that sinks the Celtics if he can't make a shot. 'Cause it, it'll hit a point a little like 2022 where teams are just gonna leave him open if they don't think it's going in. It hasn't been that bad, but it's been veering toward the vicinity of, hey, we, we're going to actually have to see you make 2 before we start flying out at you. If that's okay.

I heard you talking about this with Legs and I am on like Team Missoula about this. I'm not worried. And if you want to leave him open, I'm thrilled that you're going to leave him open. I want him to, I want him to take all this, all the shots.

I'm not worried either, but I'm a tiny bit worried. Just a little bit. A little, little, uh, a whiff worried. All right. He's still on the board. I can't believe I can get him with this kind of value this late. As, uh, my legacy guy, I'll happily take Jalen Brunson here. So this broke.

It's a fantastic pick.

This broke pretty nicely for them. They get to play Toronto round 1, which—

no, they play the Hawks.

Atlanta.

They play the Hawks.

Yeah, that part didn't break. That part didn't break nicely for them. Actually, it didn't break nicely for them. I take it back. I recant that comment. But they go Atlanta round 1 and then Boston round 2. He's got a ton of confidence against Boston. He's got a ton of confidence against everybody. He's a beloved New Yorker. He's done a lot for the team. They came within 2 wins of the Finals last year. I don't know how many more swings at the apple you're going to get. You have a 1-seed Detroit team that's pretty young. You have a 2-seed Boston that you feel like you can beat because you beat them last year. And this is about as good of a chance as you're going to get. San Antonio, not quite San Antonio yet. Wemby next year is gonna be more frightening. OKC will be the same. Denver, probably the best they're gonna be. It's a really nice moment for him. He's second team All-NBA. I don't think he will be a top 5 MVP. Do you? No, I don't. Do you think he could sneak 5th place? I don't think he will.

No.

And I think he's kind of settled into— people have an opinion on him and they think he is what he is, but I think he's somebody that can go toe to toe with every great player of the league. And we'll see. Legacy guy.

I think it's a great pick and it's, it's a great pick particularly because he's a Knick and because of what conversations he's already in like this. Every week there's a new, is he already the greatest Knick since X or could he be the greatest Knick ever? Is he already a better Knick than this guy? If he takes them to the finals, there's gonna be Ewing compar— there's just gonna be a lot of like, Ewing obviously had incredible longevity. You got this guy's from the '70s and all that. But like, there's just, because he's a Knick, all the legacy talk feels like doubly important and noisy.

Well, especially 'cause they're all sitting courtside at the games. He's had a taste of it because they've had success in the playoffs the last couple years, and you can see how the entire city mobilizes behind the team when they're playing well, and he's the focal point of it. So there you go. Okay, you're up.

I have a lot of the negative categories yet, and I'm not, I don't want to go there yet. Especially since you've left me a guy who doesn't fit anywhere else other than has to be mentioned. And so, you know who has to be mentioned? Jaylen Brown has to be mentioned. The guy who is going to be in the top 5 of the MVP and probably be first team All-NBA. And set the tone for a Celtics team that was not gonna accept pessimists like me saying gap year under 41.5, whatever. And has been all too happy to talk about that. And, and now the playoffs are here and Jayson Tatum's back. And I'm just fascinated to see how Boston continues to evolve with the guy who was their undisputed best player now back in the lineup with Jaylen Brown coming off an incredible regular season where he leveled up in a lot of, to degrees in different categories But as you've said, you don't normally see guys in year 10 leveling up this much in his passing, this much in his dribbling, this much in his steadiness, this much in his decision-making. Now the bigger stage is here and there's gonna be not scrutiny, but just sort of curiosity of like, okay, now you're facing the best teams, the best defenses game planning for you.

Jason Tatum's back. How, how does it all look? And so I, I don't have another category to take him in. He's gotta be taken. I'll take him in my must-be-mentioned category.

Boyd. So you're taking him in bonus guy who must be mentioned?

Yes.

Okay.

Because I don't have any other place to take him, and I get to steal him from you.

It's interesting. I thought you might take him in The Leap.

Well, I took Castle already. Yeah, The Leap already. The Leap kind of— I mean, I don't know. I don't know where else to take him, so I'm going to take him here. And boy does he deserve to be mentioned. He's been one of the half dozen best stories, biggest stories, most important stories of this entire season?

I'm going to take, uh, oh, my feel-good star is gone. Damn it. I already took a feel-good. Well, yeah, that really complicates things for me. Well, oh man. Looks like. I have to do second banana and I get to take one of my favorite guys this season, somebody I've really thoroughly enjoyed. You took Steph Castle for me that I would've put in this category. I'm gonna take Jalen Duren of the Detroit Pistons, who I think I'm going to vote for second team All-NBA. I think he has been— you mentioned Jalen before, and I think Jalen Duren's like this too. I think when we only go stats and advanced stats, when you're looking at somebody's case for whatever, and you're not also talking about the stuff you can feel when you're watching a season, the nuances of a season, I think to me that Jalen Brown, Jalen Duren are the two guys I think of for this, and Kessel to some degree too. Jalen Brown, there's all kinds of stats where you can be like, the on-off, it's not as good. And if you didn't actually watch the season, you didn't understand how important it was that he scored.

Jalen Brown scored 35 point, 30 points, I think 35 times this year. And he repeatedly guarded the other best guy on the other team and just showed up night after night after night where this weird team that they had with no Tatum and you never knew if Pritchard was gonna show up. Offensively, or if White or one of the wings, but you always kind of knew Jalen was gonna be there with his 30 points and his 12 free throw attempts and his 9 2-points. And there's something to be said for that. Durant is the same thing for me. It's night after night, this guy is 20 and 10. He's one of the physical, most scary guys in the league. There's an intensity to him that he has that I think the team feeds off. And I think, I think other than Cade, he's the guy on this team that they They, he's the emotional fulcrum. And I think he's gotten better as the year went along too. Do you, do you feel that way? Do you feel like he's gotten a little better offensively as the year has gone?

Well, especially with, especially without Cade when they needed him to get, to get 20 every night. Some nights he got 25, some nights he got 30. I think he's a very intriguing player 'cause he's still so young. I think he's still 22 or 23 years old. Yeah. There are still occasional hiccups with him on defense in terms of his positioning and his angles, but he can make up made up for a lot of it with just sheer athleticism. That's gonna be tested. I've had a couple of, of scouts kind of just say I have a little skepticism of his offensive game and how it will survive in the playoffs because he seems to sometimes operate on the knife's edge of risk, of turnovers, of thread the needle passes, of is that dribble move really gonna work? And they're curious to see how it holds up against elite defenses who are a little bit more focused on him. I would be optimistic. I think he should be an absolute lock for All-NBA. I'd have him third team, but I wouldn't really argue too strongly if you put him second team. But he should be like, he, he should be a lock and he'd be a lock even if Luka and Ant were both eligible.

He would still make my third team. So he's a great pick.

And the thing, the reason why both Jaylens are fun for the intriguing draft, 'cause they're both intriguing. Jaylen's gonna be intriguing for all the who's gonna have the ball at the end of the game. Can he continue to stay at this level? Jaylen Brown. And then Dern, it's like, okay, you guys are number one seed. You looked awesome in the regular season. Can you now go up like 8% in the playoffs? Can you now be like a 20-14 guy, 22-14? Can you do this night after night? Can you stay out of foul trouble? Can you keep that physicality without losing your temper and shit like that? All right, you're up again. We're running outta categories.

Yeah, I'll just take the low-hanging fruit and be quick. I'll just take Mosley for hot seat coach. We already talked about it. It's an obvious pick. Someone has to do it.

I like it. Oh, I put that in the hot seat wildcard accidentally. Okay. I, I got rid of both of my hot seats already. Man, there's some good guys that we haven't taken. Yeah, including this next guy who, let me see if I have a spot for him. Oh, I'll put him here. I'll put him in my bonus guy who has to be mentioned, Anthony Edwards.

He demands mentioning. That's for damn sure.

I just, it's just, I, I didn't even really expect to take him here, but I just, we've gone too far without him being in there. A couple intriguing things about him. Is he 100% healthy? Can he beat Denver again and have this like crazy, you know, fairly successful run against a pretty great Nuggets team over the years? What happens if he can play okay in a series? What happens if he gets going against Wemby in a series? Every sort of outcome with Anthony Edwards in any round is intriguing and fun. We'll see if he's 100%. I've heard he's close to 100%, but not 100.

He was also sick. That was part of the reason why he missed a couple of these games. He was, he was like quite ill and it wasn't just the knee soreness or whatever he was out with. Yeah. I know one thing that'll happen, like if there's one guy who's actually gonna try to dunk on Wemby, it's him and talk shit.

And talk shit about the French and God only knows with him. Okay, we're almost done.

Trade machine guy. I've got a number of candidates. I could go boring, like Cam Johnson salary dump to re-sign Peyton Watson. I could go whatever. I'll go Julius Randle as my trade machine guy.

I like it.

Has had a shaky last 6 weeks or so. The world knows they were going through whatever machinations would've been necessary to try to get involved in Giannis. I mean, there's just almost no way he wouldn't be part of some multi-team trade in that scenario. He was awesome in the playoffs last year, played the best basketball of his life in the playoffs last year. And if they are gonna be the team that they think they can be, they gotta get outta their own way in a number of ways. And one of those things is, is him. And if not, who knows? So I'll take Julius Randle.

I have no notes. I'm gonna go right to my weak link and I make this pick I'd like to make the point, this is not a character assassination. I've been really impressed by how he's played this year. I'm just judging it based on history, reputation, and whether he can shed some of that reputation, but also some of the situations he's been in this season where his team, which is really good, has really needed him. To all of a sudden like, whoa, our lead's down to 1. Can you create a really good shot for us? And that man is Tobias Harris.

Oh wow. Wow.

Yeah. Will he remain a playoff weak link or will he shed the weak link label? Because all I know is watching this Pistons team, the ball seems to find him in big spots. And we've seen in the regular season that's fine. In the playoffs, it's usually not. But I can promise that if you're a Pistons fan, you've had this conversation with yourself, like, man, we really needed that 17-foot fall away from Tobias on the baseline to squeeze out that win. Is that gonna be happening in round 1, round 2? We'll see.

Well, he's especially important during the non-Cade minutes for them. He plays almost all the non-Cade minutes for this reason. Like, hey, at the very least, the floor of our possession is a 15 15-foot turnaround in the post from Tobias Harris.

And not a lot of shot creation on that Pistons team, although Jenkins has gotten better. All right, you're up.

He's been great. Tobias has been the heart, like one of the heart and soul guys on that team, a vet. They love him. I just, saying all that, I didn't think he was high profile enough to fit that category.

Oh, a critique of my draft. I mean, look, weak link, I, I could go this is the number one seed, the third best player, the guy who takes big shots for them.

Is he the third? Is he the third best player?

He's not. Well, I guess Asar Thompson is, so fourth best player. All right, fine.

I mean, weak link, I contemplated a whole bunch of guys. Your guy, are you gonna take one? Yeah, I'm gonna take— I'll do weak link.

You're ragging a man, Tobias Harris. You're taking—

I contemplated Of course I contemplated Ayton, as we all would.

No, he doesn't. He's just a permanent weak link. He's not intriguing. I'm not intrigued to see if he won't be a weak link.

I'm gonna go intriguing and weak link. A more high-wattage player, could have been a trade machine player. I just, I'd like to see Jalen Green again in the playoffs. And can we just get a redo on the Warriors disaster from last year? He hasn't played much this year. They plugged him right back in as a full-time starter and he's basically just being Jalen Green, which is taking a lot of shots and not making enough of them. And decision-making is a little bit better. He's, he's had a few nice passes on the pick and roll lately that I think are level-up passes for him, but it's just, it's very inconsistent. His contract is super tradable and I could see him shooting them out of a play-in game or a playoff game. And also like the one game they won, or one of the, I'm sorry, the one of the games they won, the one game he played really well last year against the Warriors, he was, was because he just went crazy. I just think we haven't seen if that is this really the right fit for him with Booker. And, and maybe we'll learn a little bit more in the playoffs.

That's pretty good. Thank you. Oh man. There's a guy I really want to take here, but I feel like it's a waste of a pick. I'm going to do it. I feel the same way about this guy that I did about the guy I took last year. I don't think it's going to work out the same for his team. For the leap, Tyrese Maxey. I don't know if this will happen. But if you're just looking at the playoffs and saying, which guy could completely change his narrative in a month and a half? I took Halliburton a year ago because I thought the Pacers had a legitimate chance to win a round or two, and I liked how he was playing and I liked that team. I don't like the Sixers team as much, but if they do, they're in a 2-7 matchup against the Celtics. I think he would go toe to toe with the Celtics for 2 weeks and all the Celtic fans would be terrified of him and relieved that to get rid of him by the end of this series. If he goes against Detroit, same thing. I actually think he has another gear in him.

He's great at home. The fans really believe in him. Like he's a guy that could just go for 36 a game in the playoffs or some crazy thing. I could see it. So I, I had to have him somewhere in this draft and I'm taking him.

He was sensational the last time we saw him in the playoffs 2 years ago against the Knicks. 30 a game, 7 assists, bunch of huge dagger shots, including one that I believe won game 5 for them. I can't remember off the top of my head what game it was. That's a, it's a, it on the one hand I want to say, can a guy who almost averaged 29 points a game make a leap? But I, without Embiid, it could definitely make a leap in terms of just his, his standing in the league if he has a serious injury, which is totally on the table. Totally on the table.

Yeah. This is an, I'm carrying a team by myself to a giant upset. And I think this is the right point in his career. I also like, there's something about that dude. You're up 10 against Philly and he'll just score 10 points in like 90 seconds. And it was just like, oh my God, what just happened? We're up 10.

He and Donovan Mitchell are like that. They might be the two scariest guys in the league when their teams are down 12 with 90 seconds left and you're about to check out of the game. They just go insane.

Yeah.

Okay. Feel-good star. I'll do it. I'll just take my feel-good star. Easy pick. I've been just biding my time on this one. LaMelo Ball.

I almost took him for leap and I didn't have the ball.

No pun intended. He is a textbook central casting feel-good. The narrative turned all the way around, and let's capitalize on it now in a playing game or two.

And let's get him away, Mo. Beloved.

At what point are the Lamelo driving jokes going to expire? Are we almost there? Never. It's the hard part is that driving is a part of his game, and so you're just going to say it all the time and it's going to always conjure up that image.

Okay. I have to bang out beloved bench guy. I have to bang out defensive stud. And those are my last two categories. So beloved bench guy, had him in Boston once upon a time. I think he's going to play an important role in a long Spurs playoff series because I am dubious of Wemby staying completely healthy for 10 straight weeks. And this team's pretty good when he plays. The one and only Luke Kornet. I thought one of the best signings of the offseason. They don't— they obviously lose a ton when Wemby's not in there, but it's not a catastrophe. And if anything, like, it's kind of fun when Luke Kornet's in there and he gives them a different look. And I wonder if they would even play him and Wemby together from time to time against a big lineup. Would you ever see that happening?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they've— French vanilla was the thing for a while. It hasn't been much of a thing lately, but you need all your things in the playoffs. I wonder if there's a moment. You need all your—

you need it.

That's the great thing about the playoffs. If you're gonna go a long way, you need every tool in the toolbox to come out at some point.

All right. So you have one pick left and it is your hot seat wildcard.

Okay.

I just wanna mention we've done this entire draft and nobody took Curry or LeBron.

Okay.

I mean, there's, or Kawhi, I mean, LeBron is, or Devin Booker, or Luka Dončić.

It's okay. It's a deep league. What do you want me? Luka's hurt. LeBron's carrying a team that is not quite drawing dead, but is, is in major trouble with all the injuries. Curry's on the 10th seed. I mean, I'm the, it's intriguing. I'm not, I know exactly who Steph Curry is. He's amazing. I just don't think there's gonna be a lot of like, Golden State Warriors playoff games. Here are my candidates for wildcard hot seat for coaches. Chris Finch and Kenny Atkinson. I think they're wonderful coaches. And I don't think anything bad should happen to either of them, but I just know how owners are when bad things happen in the playoffs. And we'll see on both of them. I think they're awesome coaches. I'll go off the beaten path though for this. And I just wanted to say there, Nibs, I'll go off the beaten path for this. Off the beaten, because this is the off the beaten path hot seat category. I'm gonna go Zachary Risacher, who was recently benched by the Atlanta Hawks and is the former number 1 pick in a draft that happened not that long ago and would be potentially a must-have ingredient in any massive, the Hawks did what, where, who's on the Hawks now kind of trade.

And it's like, hey, look man, Reed Sheppard's come along. Alex Sarr kind of played fake basketball for 50 games. He's pretty good. Castle's a stud. Clingan is becoming a stud. Like, like there's a lot going on in your draft class. Do you any— can we get something? And you're young, you're 21 years old. It's, it's not fair, but whenever a team is like, you know what, I think we're just better off with Corey Kispert getting some of your minutes and you're just not gonna play, it's, it's not great. It's not great. So I'll go Risacher.

Who did you make fun of me for? Because I took— off the beaten path.

Off the beaten path. Who was your off the beaten path hot seat guy? De'Aaron Fox.

Okay.

It's a better pick than mine.

Last pick. I— this is the last pick of the draft. I only have defensive stud left. Apologies to Donovan Clingan. I did think about you here. Especially if it's, if it's somehow, is there any, it could potentially be Portland, San Antonio, right?

He's on, yeah, he's on my list for defensive stud.

Yeah. A Donovan Clingan-Wemby battle would be really fun. I thought about Dyson Daniels here trying to chase around Jalen Brunson. And I'm not taking either of those guys and I'm not taking Rudy Gobert either because I don't want Rudy on my team.

Wow. That was, talk about uncalled for. Oh my God.

Don't want him on my team. This guy, I think, is the most intriguing guy left that we haven't taken because I think they would need him to beat Boston in round 2. And I thought what he did to Tatum the other night alarmed me a little bit as a Celtic fan, 'cause I thought Tatum had a lot of trouble with him. I have him as a second team all defense. I think you can make a case if your life depended on the game and you wanted 5 defenders out there, he might be one of the 5. OG and Anunoby. There's a certain type of guy that he's just awesome at guarding, and if he's really locked in and it's, it's basically any scoring wing, it's Durant, it's Tatum, it's Jaylen Brown. He's just, he's big, he's physical, he knows all the moves, he gets right in your chest. And I think if they beat the Boston Celtics in round 2, I think it would be him. And I think it'd be Jalen Brunson would be the 2 reasons.

He was definitely on my, my list for a defensive stud. I kind of took Derrick White just to be mean to you. I love OG Anunoby. I've flip-flopped him on first and second team all-defense 4 times in the past 2 weeks. I think I'm gonna end up with him on second team all-defense, but like you said, his physicality and his strength, the combination of strength and quickness is extremely rare. He can guard every kind of player. He's guarded Embiid in playoff games before. Like he's just that special.

A lot, all the, a good way to think about all defense is, right, got taken. Yeah. I was gonna say a good, a good way to think about all defense is if you're a guy on the other team, how high on the— oh shit, this guy. How high are you on that ranking for the different players in the league? Like, I think point guards are like, they see OKC and they're like, Kayson Wallace, fuck. Ugh.

How about the whole team? Caruso? Caruso didn't get drafted for these. Dort?

I know. Yeah. Apologies to all those guys. We also didn't draft Curry, LeBron. I thought there was a CJ McCollum case.

He was in my feel-good star category.

Kawhi Leonard. Devin Booker did not get drafted. Mike Brown, Luka Dončić, Durant, and Jalen Johnson.

Durant.

Durant.

I almost took Durant. I almost took Durant for legacy just because, I mean, we've almost talked it to death over the years of just like, the coda to his career, this, all the twists and turns post leaving OKC, what a Houston playoff run would mean. I just don't think this particular team has a long playoff run in them.

But you know what, it's not like there are rules for this. Let's add a category, Coda Guy. You want Durant? I'll give you Durant.

Yeah, I just, I just, you just made it up and I already took a guy, so I'll take him.

All right, so you have Kevin Durant as a coda guy. Durant. And that means I can take, just so we can have him in the draft, Steph Curry. And by the way, LeBron would have been an acceptable pick here as well. Steph Curry winning 2 straight play-in games, going against OKC and doing the Denzel Washington last 40 minutes, man on fire. I'm just going to take on an entire drug cartel and see if I could survive. And I'm gonna die, but you're gonna have a good time. This is happening. I think I would be in there. All right, recap of the draft.

Okay, yeah, let's see.

We took—

then the people can vote. The people can vote.

Apex superstar, I have Wemby, you have SGA. Beloved bench guy, I have Luke Kornet, you have Peyton Pritchard. Crossroads guy, you have Donovan Mitchell, which was a great pick. I took Palo. Franz as a little dotted line. Defensive stud, I have OG Anunoby, you have Derek White. Feel-good star, you have LaMelo Ball, I have Jason Tatum. Hot seat coach, Jamal Mosley for you, Ime Udoka for me. Hot seat wildcard, Zach Rechausche for you, I have De'Aaron Fox. Legacy guy, I have Brunson, you have Jokic. Second banana, you have Towns, I have Jalen Duren. Third banana, the best pick of the draft for me, Aaron Gordon. You took Mikal Bridges. The leap, Steph Castle for you, Tyrese Maxey for me. Trade machine guy, Julius Randle for you, J Dub for me. And I gotta be honest, you weren't— I thought that would get a reaction from you and you didn't really react. Weak link, Jalen Green for you, Tobias Harris for me. Bonus guy who has to be mentioned, Jalen Brown for you, Anthony Edwards for me. And then KOTA guy, Kevin Durant for you and Steph Curry for me. And I have bad news. We've both been fired from ESPN because we didn't draft LeBron.

So pack up your bags.

We're done again.

Actually, this could be a First Take segment. LeBron doesn't go in a 32-person Most Intriguing Draft. What's going on? That's it for the draft.

All right, should we make up a— should we make up a category? Best encore dad?

You know what, we have 30. I think we have 32 right now. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. Now we have 30. All right, yeah, so we'll just give LeBron special achievement LeBron. He goes to both of us. Special achievement LeBron. We share LeBron.

Please keep your speech to fewer than 3 minutes.

We both, we both take LeBron because he's been that important to the league. Um, Zach Lowe, Denver tomorrow night, sold out show. You're gonna have, uh, the one and only Chris Ryan, even though it's not CR month anymore. You're gonna have Tim Hardaway Jr. Who else is gonna be on? You have one more person.

Adam Morris from DNVR, who knows better than anyone in the world. Um, yeah, so we're gonna do a lot of different stuff.

And then you're going to be, um, You're gonna be doing Tuesday, Thursday pods this week?

Well, I don't, we'll see if the Denver one is the Tuesday one. I don't know. But, 'cause we're doing it Monday night, but Thursday for sure, I will do my annual 8x8/6x6 rapid-fire preview of every first-round series that we know about.

And I have to, I have to thank New Era. For helping us out with the livestream.

They're also sponsoring my— they're also sponsoring my show tomorrow, so double thank you, New Era.

Um, also sent some really good stuff that I've broken out a couple times. Uh, thanks to Gahow and Eduardo and Chris and Jack Wilson as well on the Ringer side. Thanks to everybody who watched and listened. I hope the draft infuriated you or made you mad or anything. Um, I'm gonna be back on Tuesday and Thursday this week. New rewatchables coming tomorrow, Basics Instinct. Get ready for La Gata on Tuesday. And, uh, this is really fun. Good to see you, Zach Lowe.

Always fun. Thanks for having me.

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