Transcript of Tatum’s Stunning Return, Wemby’s Big Weekend, and a 2011 MVP Deep Dive With Zach Lowe

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It's the Bill Simmons podcast, presented by Fandos Sports Network and the Ringer Sports Network. Zack Lois here. I really screwed that up. It's a Ringer podcast Network. For some reason, I froze. I'm so excited to talk about Tateum. There's a lot to talk about. Since the last week when we got together and I was like, I feel all signs are pointed to Tateum on Friday, and it just feels like so many things have changed. The Spurs feel like more juggernaughty than ever. We're coming on right after they beat the hell out of the Rockets. The Celtics have just inserted themselves now for real into the contender conversation. The Lakers look more interesting without LeBron James, which is a fun little wrinkle. And the Pistons are looking a little gamey, a little teetery. Where do you want to start, Tatum?

I'm sure you want to start, Tatum. So we can start, Tatum. It is the most exciting thing that happened in the last 72 hours.

I would argue it's the most exciting thing that happened this season, just because when you go back to last May and it was like, Oh, man, we're not going to see this guy for 18 months. And then you think the first week of the season, I remember going to... I saw a home game in the first 10 days and came away from the game thinking, they got to blow it up. This is ridiculous. Just trade Derek White. Just start this over. Who are we kidding with this team? And the transformation over the next four months has been startling. The craziest thing, there's the Tatum piece, which I want to talk about in a second. But then there's also the getting all these minutes and reps for all these dudes now that are now these trained Dragons for a 10 or 11 man rotation. You saw Shireman today was one of the key guys in the game who just wouldn't have played this year if Tatum had played the whole year. But Tatum coming back, Friday was emotional. For you? It was emotional for him. I think he had a lot of trouble getting through it.

I think it was his son sitting in the front row of the basket they're going against in the first half, and he just looked way more like himself today. But I didn't fully 100% believe until this driving righty layup bank shot that he made in the second half where he pushed off his bad... I want to call it the bad leg because it's like a surgically repaired leg, I guess. It was just a vintage Tatum play going off the leg that everybody was like, he's got to be careful. He's just far further ahead of where I thought he was going to be. Is the same for you? Were you expecting 27 to 29 minutes and real intensity?

I'm legitimately shocked at how good he looks. I realized he's 12 of 32, 6 of 16 in both games. The eye test is... I mean, I'm absolutely blown away. He looks really good already. And it's a little scary for teams who have been saying, well, if not now for the Knicks, when? Because Tatum's and Halliburne's out and Lillard's out. And well, even if Tatum comes back, he'll be a shell of himself. And I wasn't sure how much of like, is he going to be 60 % of Tatum, 80 % of Tatum? I don't know what percentage he's at now, but 50 minutes into this or whatever it is, he's so far ahead of where anyone could have reasonably expected him to be. It's legitimately shocking to me.

He looks like Tatum. There's some stuff, like there's some very careful deep dive, eye test, Tatum stuff. I think he's being careful jumping in traffic, for instance. Making sure when he's landing in a sea of legs, I'm sure that's in the back of his head. I thought it wasn't really until the second half that he seemed like he really wanted that righty layup I mentioned.

Well, that layup, by the way, that's on Mobile on a switch. I believe we're talking about the same one where he gets by Evan Mobile going right. It's Evan Mobile. He also had a spin in the post around Sam Merrill. They ran that white Tatum pick and roll a bunch to get switches, and he had a quick baseline spin, finish through Mobile. That's just trademark Jason Tatum stuff that we're seeing in 27 minutes in this game against Cleveland, a team that's been rolling. I know they didn't have Jared Allen, but...

And the defense stuff, too, where when they had him out there with White and Jalen at the same time and their abilities to switch, and I thought his side-to-side stuff looked really good, too. Look, going back to Friday night, my friend Hinch came over because we vowed if he came back, that we're watching the first game together. So Tatum comes back. Obviously, it's emotional. Obviously, he's going to be a little nervous. Obviously, it's a little rusty. Can't make a shot. Crowd's starting to get tentative. The miss dunk happens. We made my wife make cocktails. We're like, All right, this is now way more intense and excruciating. She made me a vodka soda. She made a handful of gin and tonic.

I just wanted to I just want to point out, you had your wife. You didn't make cocktails.

Hinch didn't make- She's a good bartender. I want to take advantage. It's like 4: 30 on a Friday afternoon. So get the drinks. He finally gets that follow-up rebound dunk. Huge release in the crowd. We're like, Oh, my God, he got one. Okay. And then within 20 seconds, hits the three. And the crowd just went holistic. And I know a bunch of people who were there and they said it was a finals-level crowd. The explosion of that 30 seconds, the two plays in a row. People were just delirious. And it really went from, Uh-oh, is this going to be a lot more awkward and weird and depressing than I was anticipating to, Oh, my God, Tatum's back. Holy shit. You could feel that ceiling go up there in that game. Then this Cleveland game was, he just looked like Tatum.

Well, I love the way he came out in the Dallas game. He was looking to pass the ball, and there was a play in that game where he got the ball. Nothing was on. He got the ball on the right wing. Nothing was happening. And you just thought, all right, he's going to get into his Tateum bag and ISO. And instead, he whipped a pass to Derek White and ran into a screen, like ran, sprinted, set of screens, slipped out of it. It's been the perfect mix of getting his stuff within the Celtic system and then being Tatum one on one against good matchups that are produced by... Which he's looked incredible. And that dunk, that miss dunk, was nothing but encouraging to me because on the way there, first of all, it came off a catch, like an active catch. He came off like, caught the ball coming around the screen and went right to attack. So you're not doing all the heavy lifting on your own. We're going to give you a Head Start. And the change of direction and explosion toward the hoop were jarring to me that he's already here. And he didn't get the explosion quite up to dunk it.

It seemed like he mistimed it from how far away from the hoop he was, which is just reps.

But the change of direction in the explosion on the way there was like, whoa, this guy is so far ahead. And by the way, to your point about I mean, you and I were not concerned about the chemistry and any of these things. We were like, this is going to be fine. Good players playing good basketball is good. Jalen Brown today, I thought had an awesome game. 23 points, eight assists.

Third quarter, especially.

Eight assists, nine rebounds or nine assists, eight rebounds. I can't remember which. And just making every right play. And yeah, lo and behold, he's still going to put up huge numbers playing this way and play with Jason Tatum.

I like what you said about that first half of the Dallas The shots weren't going in. Everything was short, whatever. But he was in the flow of the game, which was encouraging, right? I was wondering, people are asking a bunch of questions and you get the postgame thing, Jason, how does it feel? What's it like to be out there? I'd love for somebody to ask him, do you feel like you gained anything from these four months just sitting on the bench watching basketball? Has anything slowed down for you? Has anything changed about how you think about when you're out there just from just being a spectator? Because I felt like he was a little more patient than maybe he was even at his peak, just not asserting himself too much and just fitting in. But I might have been imagining it. What was cool about it, they had Shireman in that spot and Hauser and Hugo and Jordan Walsh, all these different swing. When he's out there, you just forget certain things about Tate. I'm like, Oh, yeah, he can handle the ball. He's basically a point forward. Oh, now we have one more guy out there who can do that.

The lineup that, I I don't know what the plus minus stats were, but that lineup with him and Jalen, Prichard, White, and Kata, which we had last year. Kata is a different guy this year, obviously. Prichard's up a level as a scorer, and I thought I had two stretches in the Cleveland game that I would be really scared of if I was a team in the East because all they were doing was either Tatum or Brown in the corner. There was Kata setting picks for either the guards or one of the other forwards and just a lot of movement and just things happening until they got the mismatch they wanted, which was usually Harden or it was Tatum on Mitchell. And just over and over again, they were just getting the right matchup and the right guy in space in these four elite shot creators. And that was the first time I was like, Holy shit, they might make the finals. I wasn't even considering it until the second half of the Cleveland game.

I mean, Kata is a real guy now. A real screen, roll, make plays in the short roll, finish, rebound, defense. You put a real guy who does all the center dirty work stuff around those four dudes on offense, that's a scary lineup. And so far, the only rotation casualty of Tatum to turn is Walsh. Gonzales is still getting minutes. Schyermen is just good. Schyerman is a good player on both ends of the floor. Yeah, they've looked awesome. And just Tatum, you can tell that you mentioned not diving into traffic. They're clearly going to get him up to speed slowly on defense. They're going to give him easier assignments. So far, that's been the case. You're not going to guard Cooper Flag. You're not going to guard Donovan Mitchell. We'll put you on Dean Wade, whatever. You can switch into those matchups. But it's shocking to me that he looks so much like Jason Tatum. I keep saying it. It's shocking.

The other thing is what a great sports story it is. You could even see at the beginning when Harding came over and hugged him and Mitchell had him at the end of the game. It's just like you have your livelihood taken away and you have it taken away when you're at the peak peak of your powers. I was thinking back to that Knicks game, which I thought was one of the best games he ever played, the game he got hurt. The whole playoffs, athletically, it just felt like he was at the highest level he was ever... You could feel it as you were watching those games. You're like, Oh, my God, this guy's just one of the great athletes. I don't know if it's ever going to 100% come back to where he was, just from him flying around and challenging everything. Maybe it will, maybe it'll just be reps. But even the stuff we saw today, like 10 months after an injury like that, part of it's modern science, but also I do think it's the age. I think when you're in your 20s and you're in your prime like this, I think maybe it is more conceivable to come back.

But I just thought he seemed so relieved. I think they did something important keeping him with the team, which he's mentioned a couple of times, traveling all over the place with them and just staying in the fabric of it and staying with it so that it seemed organic. Because this could go one of two The other way is the guy just disappears, works out on his own with his coaches. That wasn't like this at all. Like every other Boston fan, I've been watching the Jalen Jason stuff, making sure Jalen handled it and said all the right things.

You were alarmed at points pre-return.

You were alarmed. I thought Jalen was maybe two sentences short of just saying, I really miss my brother. We're just trying to hold the fort until he gets… I just thought he was too light. But He made a point of saying that after the game, he did one of those Twitch things. I didn't feel any dueling Banjo stuff at all today. I thought everything was organic. It just felt like they're back. You're talking about one of the great unusual partnerships we've had this century. Just two guys playing together for this long is impossible. We're going to talk about the Utah Jazz a little bit later. It's tough to keep a parent together for five years in the state age. Westbrook and Durant were together eight years. Even Curry and Clay didn't make it. They made it to what, 2023? But just in general, just having two guys do their thing together like this for a long period of time, it's unusual. The league's not designed for this to happen.

I thought there was a little more dueling banjos today against Cleveland than against Dallas, and that was part because Cleveland was just switching everything and making the Celtics go one on one. But when you have two players who are this good going one on one, you You can have some dueling banjos. That's going to be part of it. And as long as they have the mindset, and this is where Jalen has really leveled up this year, of when I get into the paint and draw a bunch of traffic, I'm just going to make this simple play every time. If the simple play is me finishing because I've got a good angle or a height advantage or whatever, that's it. If the simple play is the kick to Houser or Prichard- Or the little dish to Kata.

That's the other thing he loves to do.

And even those, there was a stretch even a month ago where some of those were getting a little reckless. He tried some around the back bounce passes. We were like, oh, that hits somebody's shin and somehow found its way through. He's cleaned that up, too. He's had a really great season. And to your earlier, you said someone should ask Tatum, what did you learn watching basketball? I would like to ask him, what did you learn about some of your teammates watching them? Because for all the change that the Celtics made over the summer to cut costs and move on to a new era and prepare for this season where Tatum was maybe going to play, maybe not, he does have a lot of built-in continuity with all the core guys that are left on the team. That's part of the reason why I think this was going to be seamless. He's just played. Even Pritchard, White, Hauzer, these are guys he's got a lot of built-up reps with, but he also got to see them play in a different context. I wonder if he just learned there's more breadth to their game or this guy can do a little bit more of this than I thought.

Also, Jalen, I just think, is a better player than he was last year. He was a great player. He was one of the best 25 guys in the league. But the The point you were making about how he's making the right play, I just think he does that more consistently this year. Defensively, those three together, White, Jalen, and Jason, it's going to be one of the best things, best threesomes defensively anybody has combined with Kata. The other piece, there was some luck with this, too. Like, Horford leaving, I think ultimately was probably a pretty good thing because this team is a little bit more rebounding in centers and offensive rebounding and stuff like that. It was not stuff was really that good at or Porzingas. So the team's a little different. There's a couple of things I think we know for sure now that I wasn't positive of because from what I heard, Tatum has been playing five on five for a month. That's why he He's so far ahead, and they've done a great job of keeping everything quiet.

He was playing- Whatever they've done, starting from the moment the injury happened until now, and it helps when the guy's 27 or whatever and not 34, needs to be studied by other teams because this is Crazy.

Yeah. So he was playing, I think, more than we realized. And that's why I thought he was going to come back and be 20 minutes. The Scheyerman proxy theory was correct. They've moved him right into those minutes, and he's 27 and 29. They want to build him up to the mid-high 30s by the end of the season. He's probably going to miss, I don't know, four games. So we learned that specifically. The Simon's Trade makes a lot more sense now.

It was basically a salary down. It was always like No, but I think if Vuch was good, it was a bonus.

But I think the Simon's trade was really more about, Tateum is just going to take all these minutes, and they must have known this at the deadline. That was important. Then randomly, Vuch breaks his finger. I think they probably would have ended up with Garza in the Vusovitch minutes anyway, because I don't know how great of a fit he was. He was the one piece that I just couldn't make sense with the group they have. If you're talking about Holes, Garza as your backup center, fine. How many teams is that going to really rear its ugly head against? I don't know. I think Tatum would have the ability to play small. It was interesting to watch the announcement. I love Legar, so do you, obviously. It was interesting. I thought Cleveland went small for a while in the fourth quarter, and I thought it was a bigger story that Mobile just wasn't out there.

Tatum coming off an Achilles tear has less of a restriction than guys who are coming off sprained ankles and toe injuries. It's remarkable.

Yeah, so Mowbley, so they went small against them. I'm wondering, down the road, will the Celtics respond by going small with Tate and Brown, two guards, and one of the wings? The other thing, I think, to watch long term with the Celtics is, will Hauser be the guy that starts, or would they move Hugo or Scheierman into that spot as the fifth guy and to maybe move Hauser to the second thing. A couple of other things really quick.

Well, can we just stop on Vuch for a second? I just think he was... I agree they're not going to... Garza has been good. He makes threes. They're not going to miss Vuch pretty much at all. Except I think they viewed Vuch as... Kata and Garza is a pretty small center tandem, and the Knicks can go double big, the Cubs go double big. The Pistons are just this ferocious, we'll fight anybody, we're a giant team. I think that could be a matchup thing in the playoffs where, okay, we just need a bigger guy out here for 12 minutes. But hopefully, he's ready by then.

I think this might be the deepest Celtic team since the '08 team. Remember that '08 team when they had a Casselle and P. J. Brown near the end, and they just had almost too many guys, and they had all these different lineups and wrinkles. The fact that Schyerman, Hauser, Gonzales, these are Real bench guys that any team in the league, I think, would want, combined with the Walsh piece. They probably go 11 deep for real now with Tatum. I'll be interested to see how the minutes go. They can use these last 20 games, basically, to rest some guys, try some different things. On the Cleveland side, I did have one Mowbley question for you because I thought that was a pretty big Cleveland game today. I thought the halftime guys did a good job of properly excoriating them. Now, these afternoon weekend games, I just think are impossible to predict. I watched Orlando, Minnesota, yesterday, and Minnesota just didn't show up. I've seen that over and over again on a Saturday or Sunday. Teams just either don't show up or they were out the night before or whatever. It was weird that it took them an hour and a half to really be like, Oh, shit, we're on national TV and this is a big game.

We should really step it up here. Are Have we peaked with what we're getting from Mowbley, in your opinion?

No, I wouldn't say. What is he, 24 years old? I would be very hesitant to say that we've peaked with Evan Mowbley. What's left is just- What's left?

What's the jump for him? If you think there's going to be more there, what is it?

I think it's all the stuff that we think might be in there. It's a more consistent three-point shot. It's a little bit more aggression, assertiveness on offense, a little bit more with the ball against mismatches, running, picking roles. And you hear that this is going to come every preseason. Like, oh, you should see this stuff. That's why I brought it up. And it just you see it in fits and starts and for a game, and then he's out for a week and you don't see him. I think he's still so young that peaked is just way too strong of a word. But I think the question you're really asking is, what version of Evan Mobile do they need right now to get to the finals for a team that just made a huge trade that It was clearly a red flag of, Oh, we need to get the finals immediately. We cannot wait on Darius Garland. Do we have that version of Evan Mobile? I will say I'm beginning to like the Cavs even more when they have the two bigs together. I feel like that has become their best look, and we didn't see that today.

I want to see more of that.

Yeah, that's why with this game, it was a great win for the Celtics, but I just feel like if you take out one of those four for the Cavs, it's a little more substantial than with some other teams because I don't think their 5 through 12 is really that impressive. The reason I brought it up with Mowbley, his stats are basically the same. He's in year five Basically, he's been the same guy for the last four years. His field goal attempts, set year two, he was 12 a game. Now, he's 13. He shot 21% from three in the second year. Now, he's shooting 32%. His rebounds, he was nine in the second year. He was 8. 7 this year. His assists, 2. 8. Now it's 3. 8. Blocks around the same. Everything's around the same. I just feel like by your fifth year, I wanted to level up. I still think it's in there, but I also don't know. When he shoots a three, do you think it's going in?

I don't feel awesome about it, but I don't feel bad about it. I just feel like it's a shot that the defense willing to live with. It may always be a shot that the defense is willing to live with, given the alternatives on the team that has Donovan Mitchell and James Harden and whatever else. It is interesting that with Allen out, Harden and Allen just had immediate pick and roll chemistry, like pocket passes, lobs, whatever. And this is not the first time this has been the case with Mowbley and a ball handler when Allen is cleared from the picture and he's the center and the pain is all his. For whatever reason, that does not come as easily with him and for him as it does for a more traditional rim runner like Allen. I want to see just Rampage, man. Put some shooting in there, let Hard and Loose and Rampage. And it just isn't as easy. For Jared Allen, it was immediately like, Oh, I'm just going to get 25 points every game now.

There's more there, and I'm not sure what it is. The three-point shot would have to get better. The ability to punish any mismatch, I don't feel like He's totally there yet. The defense is really good. It's not like I won't be telling my grandkids about it, but it's really good. I just wonder, two years from now, are we in the same spot? I think about this with certain guys in the league. I look at Jabari Smith that way, too, who's obviously an easy year younger than Mowbley. But when I watch him, because I like his game and I have a lot of Jabari Smith stock, and sometimes I'm thinking, Is this basically going to be it? We're going to be at 16 and seven, and he'll hit some threes, and he'll be able to guard different guys. And this is just where we're going to land. Is there going to be a jump? Will it have to be he gets straight to a bad team? Or is it just the vicinity of where we're going to land? I don't know. We're going to take a break. I want to talk about Detroit and the Spurs and the Rockets and the Lakers and the Knicks.

That's coming next. It's a lot. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year when you just got to in your car and go somewhere. Done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go. Quite like Sam's Club, snacks, the gear, super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. And here's what you got to do. You got to join the club of Yes-N at samsclub. Com/yesand. You must be 18 years or older to purchase a membership. A membership is subject to qualifications. Visit samsclub. Com/yesand for details. This episode is brought to you by Venmo. Support your team never gets old, but here's something new. You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How? By getting your college colors on your card. Score more with the college-branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5% cashback with Venmo Stash. Sign up at venmo. Com/ CollegeCard. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancor Bank, NA. Select schools available. Venmo/bundle terms and exclusions apply at venmo.

Me/stashterms. Max $100 cashback per month. I forgot to mention at the top, it is CR month on the rewatchables. He's an American hero. We did Sicario last week. We have Fargo coming on Monday. We have To Live and Die in LA coming a week from Monday. And then we just had a vote for the fourth movie, and it looks like the nice guys won the fourth movie with Ryan Gossing and Russell Pro. Then the last movie of the month will be LA Confidential. Oh, my God. So stay tuned for that. You mentioned something we went to break. Say your Cleveland point really quick about what happens if it doesn't go great for them this spring.

I think they become a very interesting offseason team. And I think if, let's say, they lose in the second round and it's just another second round loss for this iteration of the Cavs, we've already seen them trade Garland. And you just mentioned Mowbley, and when is Mowbley going to develop? The Yana's thing could be revisited, and I just like, I'll be watching.

It's a team blow up. Did they sign Harden in the extension or no?

Not yet.

Wasn't, I think, Harden had one of those games where it's like, Wait, is it mid-May? Oh, no, it's the beginning of March.

You're burying Honey Moon Harden. Is Honey Moon Harden over?

Is the Honey Moon over? Honey Moon Harden, yeah. This might have been, I left my purse at the hotel bar, and now it's gone. We got to find it, the Honeymoons in Shambles. Detroit lost today. They're six and five in their last 11. They are 45 and 18. The Celtics are now two wins in the loss column behind them, nine and two in their last 11. The Brooklyn loss, which I did not watch. They did not have Kate Cunningham in. No Kate. And blew a big lead near the end. That's fine. The loss today was a little different because they got their asses kicked by Miami. And we'll talk about Miami in a second, too. Detroit hanging on a little bit. And then you watch some of these other teams in the that have two, three, four guys who can create a shot. Detroit still, like we say every week, has the one guy who can create offense. And then just a lot of good cutting, a lot of good cuts, and some low post play. But not a lot of guys who can create shots. It's just the hurt or trade. I just don't understand their trade deadline.

I understand that. We said this in the trade deadline part when we had it. I understand being afraid to mess with the chemistry, but I also think they They needed a freelance wing guard somebody, and they didn't get it. Herder is really not playing. I just feel like they're a creator short. So what do you see?

I think this has been the concern all season and why none of us have been ready to crown them East champions like we would normally crown a team that was six games ahead. It's seemingly a blink of an eye ago. It's because you know that the offense is going to get harder to come by in the playoffs when you play two non computers at almost all the time, sometimes three, and you're really dependent on an all-world player, but he's just one player. And you have all these little subsets, right? Like, Duncan Robinson flying around is like a creator, even though he doesn't dribble because he creates openings and gaps and attention comes to him. And Jalen Duren can face up. I don't love these Jalen Duren jump shots that are starting to happen now. I think that's like we got to maybe-It's a little 1995-ish. Maybe another offseason of working on that before you start busting that out in games. And I love JD. And you It's a little bit of this, and the offensive rebounding is part of it. But all that stuff is harder to do in the playoffs when everyone is geared up on defense on every possession.

And this has been the concern all year. I'm not going to panic. It's a late season slide, one game without Kade. Team had a huge lead. Everyone is coming back from suspension one by one. B-stu just got back. I agree with you. We all had big dreams for the Pistons trade deadline all season. It started with marketing. That's the perfect fit. And then it was clear Utah was just not going to trade marketing because he's just going to, I guess, be a jazz lifer and just maybe one day make the playoffs for the first time ever.

We took a Trey Murphy spin around the parking lot. That didn't bite.

I never really heard Detroit being aggressive, and they settled on this Ivy Herder, basically exchange of those two guys. There's a pick swap here and there. And maybe they should have asked JB Bickerset first. Hey, are you going to play? Kevin Herder if we get him because we might trade for Kevin Herder. And he's been a break in case of emergency guy, and he's the player that could help them. Wouldn't change their life. I think we all knew that. But yeah, look, this four-team race in the East, and You want to throw Charlotte in and make it five? Go ahead and do it because they're playing.

Can we throw in the zombie heat?

Zombie heat, five straight wins. Maybe the heat just heat around and they heat their way in one way or another.

I As you know, I'm always terrified of the heat. I'd written them off this season. I saw them in person last month when I was back for Kuzi's thing at Holy Cross, and the Celtics came back from a big deficit, beat them. Khalil Ware looked like he was just a Section 8 for the season. He came in for two small stints in the game. It was just a catastrophe. It was like, wow, it's gotten this bad? It was one of those. This last five games, it wasn't Even just winning the five. I watched that Rockets game. That's when I got scared.

That was a good win for them. Charlotte win.

What they did as Charlotte on Friday night was notable, and I want to talk about that in a second. But then the one today, too, just taking it to the Wait. Hero's just back. Hero's like, I'm actually offended that you guys forgot I was good at basketball and I was being thrown around in this Trade Deadline shit. I'm good. Bam, I think, has gotten better offensively as the season went along. There were some pretty shaky Bam stats, but he's basically been a 22-10 guy for two months. Powell is out right now. Powell isn't even playing. So when he comes back, just thinking about them in a playoff series where you have these two heat check guys, you have Bam, who's steady, you have a defensive by the end. You have a good coach, you have a couple of weird bench guys and wings, and you only have to go four and three to advance in a playoff series. I looked this up.

It's true.

You only need to go four and three. You can have three shitty losses and still win the I just don't want to see them in a series. Somehow they've been resuscitated, Zack Lo, and I'm just horrified.

I'm already looking at a 2-7 Boston-Miami series, maybe.

You can look at it right now because that would be the match up if we had it right now.

It's Boston- Miami. They got to get through the play-in. They got to heat their way through the play-in. Although, six is becoming quite interesting now. Orlando is 6. Philly has dropped to eighth after a nightmare weekend where Maxi gets hurt. Now, it sounds like he's not going to be out for a long time, but Embiid is still out. With this oblique thing. That has flipped almost completely. The Hawks have won six in a row. Don't look at the... Don't forget about the Hawks.

Jalen Johnson has played himself into legit all-NBA consideration, too. I think he's there.

I had him on my rough draft two weeks ago, third team, all NBA, and people were stunned. I was like, I don't know. I think he's been pretty good. And Kaminga has been good for them. I wouldn't take the all-out victory lap on Kaminga quite yet, but he's been very good for them and definitely more productive than Porzingas, who finally played.

The Matt Ischby premature ejaculation victory lap. Hey, Matt, keep it in your pants. All right. You're a seven seed. Settle down. The moment he did that, everybody in the team got hurt.

Yeah, the Dylan Brooks took a little bit of a hit this weekend as well.

Maybe take the victory lap after the season, buddy.

The Bam wear stuff has started to work and work big time. That combination in the last three to four weeks has really changed their team. And like, Hamei Hakaes Jr, I haven't done a detailed six-man-of-the-earth dive in maybe a month, but I I think he, Kelton Johnson, Nas Reid, there's a bunch of good candidates. He's just been consistently outstanding. Teams just can't keep him out of his comfort zones. He spins and drives his way into these little eight-foot flip shots. He seems to make all of them. And he was a huge difference maker in that win at Charlotte on Friday.

Charlotte's playing right now, and they're tied heading into halftime in Phoenix, ironically. I watched that Friday game because they were going head-to-head with the Tatum game. I had on the smaller TV, I was monitoring it.

You don't have to say that you watch a Hornets game. We all assume that you are watching every Hornets game. Parents watch their children, legitimate or not. That's the thing.

It's like when I would have Zoe's soccer games on one of the side TVs. Charlotte played well. They had 120 points. Good game. Offensively, they kept doing stuff, but they couldn't stop Miami. I thought it was interesting. It was a little cold water being thrown on the watch out for Charlotte. They could be this year's Indiana bandwagon that I think I was on with three other people.

That bandwagon is...

Yeah, we didn't even have wheels. We were basically building the foundation of it. But they had nobody in the team that could stop Hero. I think if you're going into a playoff series, their issue is going to be stopping those Hero, Prichard, these crafty guards, these crafty heat check guys. They just don't have anyone. They're five, their best five. Everything's good except for that one wrinkle. Donovan Mitchell, I think, would be a real problem for them. That was my lesson from that because they got 120 and they still lost. Miami is going to be heard from. I think we can officially say the East is better than the West.

How about that? We might be able to say it.

Certainly, the bottom five of the West is not covering itself in glory.

No. Nor is the bottom four in the East, however. But it's a conversation now. For sure.

Well, we were about to have four legitimate East contenders all with various cases going on. Cleveland took a hit today. And the Knicks were the other one. The Knicks, who I've been hesitant to trust because every time I'm about to buy in, and then they had a couple of good games. I even thought that OKC loss they had was the best Knicks game I've seen.

That was a good loss.

Yeah. That was like, Oh, yeah, this could be a finals. And then they just get waxed today against the non-LeBron Lakers. There were some good stats with them. We have the number one defense last 20 games, all this stuff. They just got smoked, and they looked like the bad version of the Knicks, this little Jekyll and Hyde thing they have going. Did you see any of that game? What did you see?

I've seen pieces of it. I'm going to go back and watch the whole thing tomorrow. But I saw a team that has been... The Lakers played really well in that game. I mean, that's the first thing. The Lakers It was a good Lakers game.

Really was.

The Knicks, their losses tend to be loud. Like the two Detroit losses, the Cleveland loss, the Laker loss today, losing by 13. Mchilbert just puts up zero. The Knicks are... I was texting with a friend of mine who's a huge Knicks fan, and he was just over the moon after the Denver game, and just, I'm all in on the team. And that was as good of a road win as you can have in the NBA, just taking it to the nuggets like that. And I picked the Knicks to make the finals. I haven't been convinced to pick anyone else over them in a complete way yet, but I texted him back. I was like, they seem to... No matter what run they're on, you're always like one weird cat game or one weird bridges game away from being like, oh, it's something. It's just a strange-What happened? A strange brew that way.

I agree. There's a number 4 seed subplot with the East that I think is worth mentioning, where you could be in the 2-3 and know that you're going to not only probably play Miami. I think Miami is going to get to the 6 seed. So you 2-3, if you're the three, you play Miami in round one, and then you play the 2-seed in round two, and you're on the road. Or you could just drop down to four. You could play Toronto in round one and then take your chances with Detroit. To me, that's the more palatable path. I don't know how you feel about it, but that 2-3 feels a little quagmiery to me.

Interesting. Yeah. Look, Toronto is only a game ahead of Orlando and Miami now in the fifth spot. So let's take that one.

That could even swing even more.

And they can't beat anyone good. I mean, that was another great win for the Knicks. They went to Toronto and blew them out. And Toronto just can't beat any of the good teams in the NBA. So backing up your point that if you can park your way into a matchup against them, maybe that is a little less terrifying than seeing Spoh stride up and down the sidelines and like, what zone can we throw at these guys? Triangle and two, should we bust that out? It'll blow their minds. That's the heat, man.

And then the Lakers really quick, 9-2 without LeBron, which is a record that will be brought up over and over again over the next 12 to 18 hours as the talk shows kick in.

You know who had never had a record like that when they were injured? Michael Jordan, Bill. That never happened to Michael Jordan. Okay?

Michael Jordan. I just like when it's Luca and Reeves. Just remove LeBron out I love it. I think that's the foundation of a really good team because you could build the right team around those two guys. You know who else thinks that? They're going to be your worst defenders.

You know who else thinks that? The Lakers.

I know. I know. I think they like playing together. It's Luca and Kyrie again. I think they like playing together. You can see the vision. I don't know why they didn't start the vision in February. This is just a really weird situation for LeBron because it's not like he's washed up. But this has been a weird fit for him the whole season. We've known it. You can watch it. You can see with your own eyes. I don't know where he ends up next year, but I find it hard to believe it's going to be the Lakers. I do, too. I still think it's going to be Golden State.

I find it hard to believe it's going to be the Lakers, but as you've pointed out, I find every scenario a little hard to believe.

Golden State needs them. I think Golden State would be the team.

Golden State needs something because this has been a hell of a depressing season for the Warriors. They still play hard and they play a fun style of play when Steph's there, but this is not going to be the most stretch run in Warriors history.

There's been some good Warriors news. I bought a small condo on Gee Santos Archipelago.

Gee Gulch.

Gee Gulch. I bought some property on DeSanto Straits. The Laker thing.

So did they. They just paid him.

They did. They paid him a good, what was it, five a year for three years? Yeah.

Maybe he's a solid player. He's a very, very Steve Kerr player. It's just central casting Steve Kerr player.

We got to talk about the Spurs, too, because they had an awesome weekend. They came back from 25 against the Clippers. I was watching a movie with my wife. I had the TV on the small screen. Never turned it off, even when it was 75 to 50.

Hold on. What movie?

I don't want to say.

Okay.

It wasn't a movie. It was this TV show called Vladimir.

I'm unfamiliar. Clearly, you're not that invested in it if you have half at one eye on Wemby over here.

It's with Rachel Weis. She's a professor. It's a Netflix show. It's basically my wife. It's her algorithm. It's just like, they put the show on Netflix, and then her algorithm, there's a hammer that actually comes out of the TV and hits her with it because it's so in her wheelhouse, according to the algorithm. You will watch this now. So that was on. And we were also watching this Spurs game. I mean, Spurs Clippers. So Niederhauser, who I was just touting to you a week ago.

Such a bummer.

And the fear with Niederhauser is like, this guy's a maniac. He tries to block everything. He's going to get hurt. Of course, he gets hurt trying to make some crazy block out for the year. And you could really feel it in that Spurs game because you can only ride the Brook Lopez Express for so long. Great comeback for the Spurs. I have no idea why I wouldn't be cried at the end. Did Did you weep?

Did Vladimir make you weep? Was there any weeping?

I would have only wept if I had the Clippers in a Parley. But so they had a big comeback win on national TV, and then they really thrashed the Rockets today and looked scary. We've talked about, Is it Too Soon? We've had all this first conversations you can possibly have at this point. I got to talk about Dylan Harper a little bit. Oh, my God. Who I've liked the whole year. I haven't seen a rookie guard like this in a long time, and I'm having trouble fitting him in the context of rookie guards we've seen since we've watched basketball. He can't really shoot. If it's an open three, I don't think it's going in.

Three or four today.

He's got this combination. He's really nice along the baseline. He likes to have his back on guys. I guess the comparison maybe it would be a little Jason kid, very comfortable with a little space near the low block with his back to a guy ready to go either way, gets to the rim. There's crazy rim stats with him. It's basically him and centers and big forwards with finishing at the rim. I don't know where we're going, but I don't know if there's much of a ceiling for this because when he learns how to shoot, when he gets a floater, combining Again, with the back to the basket with the way he uses his body and bounces off dudes and how hard he plays, I'm starting to wonder if there's some Jason Kidd potentially, even though they're different players.

62 combined points for Fox, Castle, and Harper today. Throw in another 20 for Keldon Johnson before you even get to Wembenyama. I mean, the depth of scoring and rim attacking they have is crazy. I could not love Harper and Castle anymore. I And aside from all the highlight plays that Castle delivers, all the classic attacking guard stuff that Harper has, they're just so tough and so competitive, and they want to outwork you and out-physical you. And I can't remember how this possession ended up, but there was one possession in that game. Somebody on the Spurs missed, and Harper had Finney Smith on him on the left side and was just like, I'm getting this fucking rebound. You're not stopping me from getting this offensive rebound. He ended up tipping it out to somebody, and I think someone made a three. And it's just like, those are the plays from a rookie guard, a tap out offensive rebound for Castle, a second-year guard. Yeah, give me Kevin Durant. I'll do my best to guard him. And then you saw today the Rockets put their Goon on him to start the game, and it had him on Castle for much of the game, which is a strategy that I've been seeing all year.

I think the Spurs are going to see at some point. They saw it today, and it didn't work because Castle figured it out. But those are the plays that they make at such a young age And they're just winning. They're winning basketball plays. They evince a competitiveness and a toughness that rookie guards who want to score and make a name for themselves, you don't see plays like that. This team is so together. They so unselfishly. They have sequences of ball movement for a young team where you're like, a team that's young shouldn't be able to just boom, boom, boom, boom, the ball's flying around. It's really impressive. And those two guys are awesome.

I'm glad you brought that up because one of my takeaways watching today was they play like they've been playing together for a few years, which I think is the rarest place you can get to as a team. They really understand each other and where the next guy is going to be and how to use other and how to play. Even that play they ran at the end of the half when they got Wemby that three, it was just... They're very well-prepared. Some of the credits got to go to the coach. Then everybody plays hard, which is the other thing. It's very similar to the Celtics and the Pistons where it's like, you're not playing if you don't play hard. The thing with Harper, usually when rookie guards that are super talented come in, they have their things they can do. They're like, I can do this. I can really get to the rim. I'm a really good shooter. They'll have these skills that they can dwell on, but they're not basketball players yet. I think what was just so bizarre about him is what a good team basketball player he is, which is why I brought up the kid thing.

He's just really smart. I didn't watch enough for that Rutgers team last year. It sucked. It was him and Ace Bailey and nobody else. It's amazing to me he could ever be on a bad basketball team because he knows where to go, what to do, how to play off guys. I'm just really excited for him. Then big picture, you think for the league, this is a disaster that they ended up with Castle and Harper with Wemby. And these guys are all 23 and under.

And they're 47 and 17 now. And Wemby- This team could win the title, for real.

I mean, that's not even a hot take anymore. I would say probably the number two pick you would have to win the title at this point.

Christmas This is what finally, not finally, Christmas was when I said, they can win the Championship, and nothing has changed. In fact, it's just gotten clear to me that despite the experience factor, and they would be somewhat anomalous among Championship teams, they have enough, and they have a guy who's a top five.

Yeah, I don't care anymore.

He's a top five guy. And today was like, you mentioned how this first play unselfishly, super competitive, super hard. They drafted a bunch of guys who play that way. But when your best player is unselfish, and when Benyama is unselfish, one of my favorite things about him and plays super hard. No one else has any choice but to play unselfishly and super hard, especially when you start winning. And today, I know we're going to talk MVP a little bit, and there's just so much uncertainty about who's going to be eligible and who's going to be not going to be eligible. But today it was like, Wemby should be in the conversation. I think Shay still has a clear lead in a clear case. But if he's not eligible, Wemby has this good of a case, minus the minutes. He's a little behind in minutes. But You just feel him every single second on the floor, and the defensive dominance is just unheard of what he's doing on defense.

His odds during that game dropped from 20 to 1 to 15 to 1 on FanDuel.

That was an MVP. That was MVP performance tonight.

He's in the third spot now. He's past Cade. Jokuj is 9 to 1, and Shay is 4 to 1. Look, I don't know if this is the 90 bowls or the 91 bowls But we're in that vicinity with this team, where you have a potential generational star, and you have a loaded young cast, and the only question is, when is this all going to come together? That's where we are now with this team. And I went back and I looked at the 90 Bulls. They were 55 and 27. They lost to Detroit in seven. That was the Pippin Migrant game. Jordan was probably... He's Jordan. He's the best part ever. But he was a little older than Wemby. He'd been a couple of He was in college, and he'd been in the league for six years at that point. So he's probably a little further ahead than Wemby was. But it's the same thing. It's like these guys that when you're watching a basketball game like that, you could bring in my mom, you could bring in your wife, you could bring in your daughter, you could bring in anybody and be like, Does this guy seem a little different than everyone else in the game?

And the answer is yes, he does. He's doing all these things I don't watch other players do, combined with the identity they have. And what they did to Durant today, I thought was just a sign that you're a really well-coached together team. They're like, We're going to do these three things to make it really hard for him. We're going to have Keldon Johnson mugging him. We're going to pick up the ball with him at half-court. We're just going to make it really uncomfortable for him the entire game, and they did it. That was one of the reasons they won. I think about them versus OKC, if Jalen Williams doesn't really become Jalen Williams again in the playoffs, could they take out Shay? No. Could Could they make it really hard for him and make other guys in that team basically have to make plays or they're going home? Yes.

Well, we've seen that. We've seen it. They're 4-1 against them. Today, the Wemby-Playouts is different, though. But I don't know. Today, the thing that stood out to me about Wemby against the Rockets was you see some games like this and some games where he doesn't do it. I don't know if it's he was fresher in these games or he just likes to match up better or whatever it is. Today, he did the thing where When he faced up off the dribble, he did the thing where I'm taking an extra step to the basket to the point where I can just reach my arm out. And at the basket, he had one on him. And Thompson like that, he had another one against somebody else. And you When he does that, you wonder, why doesn't he do that every time? And there's just something about that night, that matchup. But today, he had a clear directive in his mind of, I'm taking the extra step or half step off the bounce and just reaching my way to easy buckets. And When he has those baskets, that's when you feel helpless. That's when you feel like there's just nothing we can do.

I remember saying this early on in the WMBA experience that I didn't like how... First of all, him playing him as a guard, I never liked. I understand they'd go through the process of it, but it was like, the question with him will be, when does he realize that the closer he is to the rim, the more devastating he's going to be? It seems like he's realizing that in real-time, to your point. Hey, I'm seven foot four and I have long arms. If I'm three from the basket, odds are something good is going to happen. Then you talk about the defense. The Celtics play them on Tuesday. I look at somebody like Pritchard, who was doing his thing this Cleveland game, right? All that herky-jerky, low Most upfaked. Just maybe stick to threes for this Wemby game, Pritch.

Reid Sheppard made a couple over him in the lane today. I know.

Man, it's high risk. Castle over Sheppard. Sheppard has been good the Last month, I think. It's not like he's a bust or anything, but that's interesting. I wonder if they would redo that one, the Rockets, because they took Sheppard third, Castle went fourth. I bet I would redo it. I like Sheppard, but come on.

I bet they would say no. I think they were just...

What about after three drinks?

They would crack a little bit. You'd start to hear anecdotes that you didn't hear before, but they were all... I mean, they were all- What about after we do fireball shots?

Yeah, Then it's good.

How many drinks are you going to serve them? My God. You crack.

A few readers have suggested to me that Katie's nickname should be the burner.

I mean, it works on multiple levels.

Thirty-five for the Burner.

You guys had a whole KD nickname discussion, which I really enjoyed about how- Slim reaper. Unilaterally was like, That awesome nickname, I don't like. Easy Money Sniper is better, not slim reaper. Slim reaper was just minted. It's so good, and he just didn't like it. The burner, I actually thought today, I'm a little bit surprised that road crowds haven't found a creative way to throw this in his face a little bit. I don't know if it's going to take the wall with the clippers.

We're not allowed to do that anymore. It's not allowed to be mean.

Everybody knows. The fans all know now, and I feel I'm a little surprised that it just hasn't come up. The Wall, I bet if they play at the Clippers, I bet the fanatics who sit in the Wall will do something.

I got an email. I'm trying to find it, and I can't find it. Just because I was asking about the best dick names of all time, and the guy said, The best nickname of all time is Magic Johnson. People literally think it's his name. That's the last stage of a nickname when nobody even really... They forget you have a real name. I think that's a really good point. Magic Johnson, it's such a good nickname that he had other nicknames. I think some people called him Buck. It was like the nickname for them. When you have the second nickname because your first nickname people think is your actual name, it's the final level of nickname. So klingt fresh music. And so. Always good, always cheap, always multifáil. In short, fresh for all.

To Aldi price.

This week, mini cherry rispentomaten, 300 grams for only 2,79 euros, or tafelbirnen, the kilo for only 1,49 euro. Findekke many weitere offers to Aldi price, now in your Aldi Nordfiliale. And weiter geht's with frischer music for jeden Geschmack Aldi. Gutes for all. Play for all. Detroit versus Philly, Atlanta, or Charlotte, Boston versus Miami, New York versus Orlando, Cleveland versus Toronto in the East, then in the West, OKC versus this bizarre Golden State Clippers, Portland. None of us are that excited to even have this series. I wonder if you offered any of those teams, you could have the 10th pick or play in round one, what they would take.

A bunch of them are taking the 10th pick.

Yeah, that's what I think, too. San Antonio Phoenix, which we're going to have to fix that series somehow. Minnesota versus the Lakers, which would be a mismatch. And then Houston versus Denver would be our four matchups. We need some work with that. I I would personally like to see OKC Phoenix and San Antonio in the one seat. Would be more fun.

I don't remember if they're playing tonight. What is your current Denver concern level after Aaron Gordon came back and they got thrashed by the Knicks at home? And Murray turned his ankle.

So Jokuj looked better this weekend. That was a bonus. Murray did get hurt. I am now in the, Hey, Denver, just fall to six and get everybody healthy. The last 20 games, don't even...

But are you still...

Be careful.

Do you still have faith in the Denver fully healthy? Is it juggernaught or are you starting to wobble on like, well, we just haven't seen a lot of Cam Johnson?

Oh, I'm wobbling. I wrote down in my... I had a quicky thought section I was going to do with you. One of them is Denver, possible year from mini-hell. Not year from hell. It's a year from mini-hell. It's like they can't have a week without something happening, right?

I It's not our year-year.

That's fair.

I don't know if they're having it, but they seem to be having a year. If you had it, it would look a lot like this.

Well, remember there was a couple of KG Celtics years where they were 25 and 25 in their last 50, and then all of a sudden they would be in the Eastern Finals. You'd be like, How did I ever doubt them? If I were them, I wouldn't care about where I landed in this 3, 4, 5, 6. Just whatever. I don't think- Let's get everybody healthy. Yeah, let's get everyone healthy. I have a new gimmick for you that I did not prepare you for. Completely unprepared stock draft.

Okay.

Buy stock in two guys right now.

Okay.

I can start if you want.

Wait, just anybody in the entire NBA?

Just guys you've been looking at, not necessarily putting real estate on their island, but just you're buying some stock.

So I'm not buying Jokuj stock. We're searching for buy low under the radar.

You're buying 2015 Jokuj stock. Okay. 2016, when did it come in the way?

Can you go first?

Yeah, I'll go first. I'd like to put a little down. I'm going to call my guy, Carter Bryant. I'd like to put some stuff down on him.

You're making me angry with that one.

He's really the only reason I wanted to have the stock draft. Friday and Sunday, the crowd's cheering for him now. They're changing his name, which is a good sign. But I like that he's one of those quiet assassin, just killer swing guys. He probably is not going to get into it once with anybody. If you knock him down, he'll just get up. He's like a Michael Myers. He's bigger than you think he is. It seems like he can guard basically everybody in the league. He hits threes, he's athletic, and they got him at the 14th pick. It was a great draft pick, and he's going to be in that team for a while.

That's a great-I'm putting down a load on him. Slam dunk, runner up, I believe. So his playoff viability, clearly, they are trying to make him play off ready now. And when he was not playing much in the regular season, he's an every game player now. Because defensively, he's A plus. He's ready for the playoff. He's ready for the highest level of stuff. It's just going to be about his offensive readiness and not even just about his three, shooting 33 %, full hit or miss. He had a couple of plays today where you could see a little tentativeness in him when they put... Houston put centers on him and him to beat him and attack him. He had a couple of plays in traffic where he's like, I don't know, I'm going to pivot around here. That's the stuff that in the playoffs, you can get a quick hook if you're a young player, a rookie untested like that. All right, should I make a pick?

You can do one. Yeah, we can only do one if you want because I had Naderhauser as my other one.

Who was your other one?

I still have Naderhaeuser stock. I don't care that he gets hurt. I love that guy. You should hold that stock. I'm going to hold it. Yeah, I didn't panic.

I'm just going to... I mean, again, no preparation. I'm assuming Alex Sahr is too high profile for this.

No, it's just the stock's higher, but you can still buy it.

I'm going to buy some Alex Sahr stock, and I'm going to sneak in right now to the Malawatch stock market in Phoenix. I'm going to buy a little on the Malawatch marina. I'm going to plant my flag in there. Park Williams is hurt, and I think he's going to get some run. And he blocked four shots the other night, and I'm going to buy now.

Interesting. Because I was wondering what him because House really liked him.

He's been dominating the G. He's been like Goliath in the G League for whatever that's worth. Noah Penda. Can I buy some Noah Penda stock? Noah Penny Penda stock?

You definitely could if you wanted to. This is a guy that I've had stock for a while from way back. Sold it, did really well. I think it's low right now. People aren't seeing it. Like a little Robert Williams III. I know he's older, but for this summer, I think this could be one of those. Robert Williams just signed for three years for 50 million. What happened? I think there's going to be another cycle for him. I as a guy that good teams talk themselves into as a playoff guy.

Three years, 50, I don't see it. I'm just saying, he's just not available.

I'm just saying, like a really stupid contract that you'd be surprised by. I mean, Jaco Pertle did get a crazy extension that I didn't understand. And it was crazy. That was happening.

It was crazy. So maybe that was the term.

Yeah, whatever. But I think Robert Williams is going to have a moment as a free agency center with a deal higher than you think.

Which Brooklyn Nets rookie would you prefer to buy stock in right now? And their price It's differently. Like, Jomen is a little higher price because where he was picked, if you had to buy one, are you going on the Wolf den? What are you going in?

Definitely not him. Wow. I don't mind Traore.

He's pretty good.

Yeah, I think he's 19. I think if it was like you could only keep one of these five guys who you keep in, I actually think I might keep him over the other four. But pretty rough that draft when you think of some of the other guys that were in that draft.

Don't say that to Nets fans. They're going to be like, You're missing the three minutes in garbage time where Traore hit a scoop shot and Drake Powell guard. I'm like, It's all right. Great.

They passed on Hugo five times. That's unbelievable.

Hugo gets in, gets him in.

Did they take... Egor, they took him over Coward, right?

Yeah, and a few other good players, too.

Yeah, that's a tough one.

He's pretty good. He's pretty good. But again, he's pretty good on a team that's horrible, and you would like him to put up a little bit more.

I have one more stock guy that I've had for a couple of weeks. Jacobi, unfortunately, cornered the market on it. But Nacquan Tomlin, I have a little on him. I don't even know if we saw him today. We I like him.

He's pretty good. He has an incredible story.

It's like a penny stock. Did you have any others? Anybody on Philly? Darryl always has one or two guys to buy in on. Barlow probably shot up a little bit.

Yeah, he's fine. I feel like the stock is probably overpriced right now.

All right. Couple of other things really quick before we go to the two things we had. Rob Dillingham, just a sunk cost, I guess.

It's not going great.

A rare L for Tim Connolly. It's a tough trade. You do that, giving up an unprotected pick down the road. You got to feel really good about the player. One of the things I think about, and the draft's interesting because there's a bunch of really exciting scoring guards in this draft. You don't follow the draft, but it's probably the best crew of scoring guards we've had. Some of them are smaller and some of them are bigger. It seems like where teams get in trouble over and over again are these undersized shooting guards or undersized point guards like the Sebastian Telfair, the Booknight, the guy we're talking about now. Like these guys, Dillingham, these guys that you talk yourself into and they just end up they're too small.

Jimmer? Do I hear Jimmer's music?

Jimmer is definitely in there, too. But it seems like that's a recurring theme that you're probably just He's better off taking a 6, 7 guy who can't shoot, hoping he learns how to shoot versus an undersize guard.

I just can't believe how little he's playing. He has played since being traded to the Bulls. His minutes are up a little bit lately, but I thought they would just be like, Hey, don't be afraid to make all the mistakes that Minnesota could not afford to have you make. Make them here.

And are they tanking? They're not tanking. What are they doing?

They're tanking.

Every time I think they're tanking, they win. Adam Silver was at Sloan and laid the smack down with tanking?

Adam Silver can only lay the smack down like a lawyer, like a highly trained crevath lawyer.

But if you read, if you put it through your Adam Silver translator, the translator spat out, We are changing this, and there's going to be real rules put in place after this draft, was my interpretation.

I don't want to hear... When he says, I'm an incrementalist, which is fine. There's going to be change. And I don't want to hear from the peanut gallery over here of owners that are against it. We're doing it. So buckle up.

Shaq didn't know who Baylor Shireman was?

I didn't see this. That's real. That was tough. He's been starting for the number two team in the East for quite a long time.

Yeah, I know. It's like a running gimmick that these guys don't know who's on. I know we all love the inside the NBA guys, but you could know who's in the rotation for the best six teams in the league, I feel like. Seems a reasonable request from the fans. Has this Buc season reached everyone might get fired status yet? Because I'll give you their last 17 minutes.

You're just trying to manifest Doc Rivers podcast guests. That's all you're doing.

Be honest. No, I'm more worried because I like Doc Rivers. I want him to have a job. They're nine and eight in their last 17. Here are the eight losses.

You don't even need to... They stink. We don't need to hear the losses.

No, this is pretty good.

Okay.

They lost by the following numbers of points. 28, 19, 28, 29, 23, 27, 18, and today, 39. No Yannis. They don't just lose. They get violated. They get blown out. They had Yannis for the 27 and the 18. We were here a week ago wondering if things were going to turn around for them. The answer is no. So you don't think this is a blow it up this summer for them? Everybody goes. I'm talking GM Coach. It's a reset button. Nuclear. Boom. Yannis is gone. New people, and we're doing a four-year tank, the whole thing.

It's definitely possible. And the honest story is not over just because he didn't get traded. The deadline, I think we all know it's not over. But I don't think they're going to trade him unless he demands a trade. I just don't think they're going to because they probably correctly understand the abyss that's waiting for them on the other side of being completely irrelevant. And he's still 31 years old and one of the three to five best players in the league. And I think it starts with him. Now, could they make changes around him? Sure. We've seen them do that before. They've changed the coach a bunch of times, and they would change the coach again in the middle of the season. So anything's on the table. But yeah, they...

I have some silver linings for Bucks fans.

Sure. Let's hear them.

They won the title four years ago, five years ago?

We've downgraded that to Silver Lining?

Yeah. Just go back and watch the DVD. That's one. Two, if there's expansion, you're not going to lose somebody you really like because you don't have eight players to protect. So that's a good one.

That's mean. That one was mean. You didn't need to. That was mean.

Well, it's a Silver Lining.

What about Thanasis? Will someone take Thanasis in the expansion?

I don't think so. They're leaving it well protected. And then you do have your first round pick this year.

Yeah, you do.

And there is a scenario where them versus New Orleans, because New Orleans has nothing to play for, they keep winning. Their picks might be around each other, so they might end up with the pick they would have ended up with anyway or somewhere around there. They might not be like, Oh, man, we could have blah, blah, blah. What is your time machine, Yana's trade if you could go back in a month and just force a trade? Because I have a team. I have a trade that I wish would happen because I just think it would have made the league more fun.

I can just do any team.

You're going backwards a month and you're being like, I know you didn't want to do this, but now I'm forcing you to do this on February fifth. Because I think there's a specific one.

I'm trying to be realistic for the Bucks. I'm not just going to be like, I want them to go to the Warriors, so I'm going to make a Warriors trade, which you can make a plausible Warriors trade. I think the most interesting one to read visit that's realistic for the Bucks is either... It's going to be one of three teams you're going to bring up. It's going to be either Detroit, Cleveland, or Houston. It's going to be one of those three teams.

I had Houston.

Yeah. Who's going in the trade, Schengen?

Schengen, Jibari, and some Picks. Right now, we watch that game tonight, and Yannis is on Houston. We're watching Milwaukee, Schengen's on Milwaukee. And I just think the league's more interesting, and Milwaukee probably feels better about where they are. I know the Milwaukee fans don't want to trade Yannis. I think it is alarming that he came back and they just got crushed a couple of times.

I was going to say, does our month timetable extend before he got injured? Because I think that was an under... I don't think that was talked We all talked about it, but I don't think it was this assumption that he was just going to come back and be healthy and 100% and never get injured again. And he's actually come back and looked good, but not like Giannis and is always seemingly at risk of some injury like this.

Wanted to mention, haven't heard a lot from Drew Hanland taking shots at the Ringer lately about how wrong we were about Embiid. Just wanted to open the door for him if he wanted to keep taking the shots. I mean, Embiid's not playing.

This is another just weird, just added to the list of weird injuries. But he didn't do it with Carmelo Anthony this week. I'm sure you saw.

He's played 33, 19, and 33 games in the last three years. This is why we can't put him in the top 30 in the Ringer 100. One of the parts of being a high-end NBA player is playing NBA games. That's one of the things we value here at the Ringer. There's going to be a WMBA strike, I think. I think it looks more likely than less likely. It's a disaster. I don't think it looks good in the borrowing a miracle, but it feels like we're heading that way. I just wanted to say that I think that sucks. I understand the reasons from both sides, but it's just unbelievable to me that they would stop playing basketball when they finally had momentum after 25 years, and now we're not going to play. I have a list of teams I've given up trying to figure out. I'm going to go Bronze, Silver, Gold. Bronze, Metal, Houston. Silver, Metal, Minnesota. Gold, Metal, Orlando. I just give up.

I was actually going to ask you, Orlando,. I give up.

I have no takes. I have no takes. I give up. What's the deal with that team?

What's the deal with the Orlando Magic? Do they know how to do Magic?

They barely beat Dallas on Wednesday Wednesday. Like, barely. Dallas isn't even trying to win. Then they go to Minnesota and they kill Minnesota in Minnesota on Saturday. I just don't understand them. I don't understand Minnesota either.

That was one of those games where you're like, What's happening here? I don't understand how this Magic Minnesota game is. The NBA just has funny games. Yeah, they've got Washington, Dallas, Minnesota, Milwaukee as their four-game winning streak. So forgive me if I'm going to just not go crazy over it because three of the wins are Poopoo wins. The Dallas one down to the wire, as you mentioned. The Minnesota win is a good win. They have talent. They're fine. We'll see where they end up.

I really wanted to believe in Minnesota. Was dying to believe they were 33 to one to win the title heading into that Saturday game. I was like, Here we go. They're going to be the three seed.

You're crushed by one loss.

That's it. You're out. It's just every time we feel like we're getting momentum with, Here's the mystery contender we needed for the It's Minnesota. And then they just suck in a game.

I'm keeping them as the mystery contender. I'm not wavering.

That's fine. All right. We're going to do our deep dive. So we've done deep dives on We did Kawhi Leonard. Who did we do last week? We did a good one last week.

I already forgot. Once we're done, I forget.

We're going to do the 2011 MVP Race. It's topical because there were some slight parallels until Detroit fell off a little bit and Cade fell off a little bit. What happened with the Hornets? Hold on. Did they... They're losing. Okay. That's it?

We now pause a podcast in real-time because the Hornets are losing?

Oh, yeah. The deep dive was about the Hornets last week. We did Kauai and we did the Hornets.

Yes.

We're in the 2011 MVP race because of slight parallels to what we were watching this year with Cade, and there was a brief MVP case for him, but now that Shay's come back, it doesn't matter. This has probably, I think, been other than 2017, the most polarizing MVP race since the decision. It wasn't polarizing when it happened because Derrick Rose won. Derrick Rose had 113 first-place votes out of 120. Dwight Howard finished second. Lebron James was third, and Kobe Bryant was fourth. This was the season after the decision. Chicago was 62 and 20. They started out nine and eight. They finished 55 and twelve. They were 24 of their last 27 games. Somewhere on the line, we all decided Derrick Rose was the MVP. Now, as the years have passed, because Miami made the finals for a straight years, LeBron is who he is, this is a MVP race that people now point to as this should have been LeBron's MVP. You did not vote for either LeBron James or Derrick Rose. You didn't have a vote, but your fake vote was not for either guy.

I would have been the fourth Dwight Howard voter that season. I just thought he was First of all, he was defensive player of the year, and it was almost unanimous. He was easily the best defender in the NBA, and it was maybe his best offensive season, 23 points a game, shot well. The advanced stats all loved him. I just thought, it's interesting. That is so long ago in NBA discourse times that we were just getting into on-off data and stuff like that. And again, when you're doing these races, you're just splitting the thinest of hairs between guys who are all deserving. And obviously, Derrick Rose was the story of the season. The Bulls were the story of the season. But one of the arguments that you could make in favor of Dwight Howard, and 15 years later, I probably over-indexed on it in picking Dwight Howard, was the on-off data that year. The Magic were awesome with Dwight Howard on the floor, and I think they were negative, something. I'm trying to look it up now with him on the bench. And the Bulls were really good with Derrick Rose on the floor and really good with Derrick Rose off the floor because their defense without him was impenetrable.

And some of that had to do with Derek Rose. Some of it was probably just random luck, and I probably underestimated the luck factor in that back in 2011. But I think there's an ironclad statistical case for Dwight Howard. Not ironclad, but you could make a statistical case for Dwight Howard easily. I just thought he was the most dominant two-way player in basketball that year.

And the LeBron one- Wait, can we talk about Dwight first and then go to LeBron?

Sure.

I had Dwight I think I had him fifth. I said, Kudos to him for... I wrote a big MVP column that year, and I said, Kudos to him for getting about 11% better this season, blah, blah, blah. Magic's only rebounder, only Only above average defender, 60% of his shots, blah, blah, blah. Then I wrote, I can't give my MVP vote for one simple reason. He leaves something on the table every night. Dwight Howard should be the league's most dominant player. Then I had a couple of things about comparing him to Shaq, all this stuff. Shaq's MVP season, where that Shaq MVP season, I wrote, That's the Shaq we were waiting for. I knew he had that extra gear. That's how I feel about Dwight Howard right now. Hakeem averaged a 24, 14 with 4. 6 blocks, 2. 1 steals in 1990. It wasn't even one of the best three seasons of his career. I keep going on that. Are you telling me his 23. 1 points, 14 rebounds, 2. 4 blocks, 26. 1 PR is the best he can do? No way. Then I wrote, that's when you ask, Wait, why does it matter? If it's better than anyone else's best season, who cares?

If he peaks as a player, it's still the best season. Then I said, advanced metrics should be used to accentuate opinions we're already leaning towards having. Instead of forming and shaping those same opinions, if Howard is the Orlando's best player, he's holding something back every night, how can you say that doesn't affect the magic? They had the eighth best record that year. They were 52 and 30. I was saying how he gets dumb tacticals. That was the eighth best record that year? Yeah. Dumb tacticals, dumb fouls, disappears in crunch time, didn't even rank in top 125 in crunch time. Field goal attempts. They had an uneven season. Nobody's afraid to play them in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah. How can I vote for him for MVP? That's how I felt in the moment. So I think there's an eye test piece to that where it's like, I just don't feel right saying that this guy is the best guy in the league. You don't care about as much about that. You're more Spock when you do the case. You're like, Here's the mathematical case. This guy is the best at this. His record's this. I still slide the eye test stuff in there probably a little too much.

I don't know who's right.

Well, I mean, part of the eye test is he was single-handedly making the magic a good defensive team by himself as easily the best defense, not easily, but the best defense player in the NBA. When you talk about leaving stuff on the table, Derrick Rose was not a good defensive player that year, so he was leaving stuff on the table.

But they were the number one defense. They were. So he couldn't have been that bad, right?

No, they were way better. They were a freaking juggernaut from hell without him. But that doesn't... Again, all these guys had cases. Everything you said about Dwight is fair. That was the end of that era of the magic. That was the last year that team was good.

Well, that was the irony of what I wrote is that was his best season. I think he was holding- It was like, Is there more there? And it's like, No, there actually wasn't.

There wasn't. There was, in fact, less eventually. But it did feel like at that time he was holding together the last remains of that team that had made the finals and then the conference finals the next year. They ended up losing in the first round the next two years, and then it was over. But I just thought defensively, he was a floor every night. Your floor was pretty stable with Dwight Howard in the middle on defense. The Shaq thing is, it's so tiresome because Shaq has perpetuated it, too. They had this rivalry over the years, and then they would reconcile, and then they'd be a rival again. He's not as big as Shaq. He couldn't just move people out of the way as easily as Shaq could. Shaq was just the eighth wonder of the world guy, and he just was never a polished post-up player. Those were the years where Stan Van Gundee just successfully shoehorn him into a post-up a few times a game when you've got good matchups and we'll throw you the ball.

To make you feel good about it.

But just Do these things you're awesome at and you're going to be the foundation of every single thing we do, offensively and defensively. You are the tent pole of everything. I just thought that was his best season.

The stuff I wrote about Rose, and it's weird because over the years, I've been like, I got the Rose thing wrong. Then I went back and read how passionate I was about the Rose case. That team was 62 and 20. He was the only guy in that. He carried their offense, was the only guy in their team who really could create his own shot, right? Who else was a little like the Detroit case this year.

It was a little booser.

A little. Usage was pretty crazy. In crunch time per 48, second most field goal, eighth most free throw attempts, ninth highest assist. He was doing everything. I was comparing it to the Iverson '01 Sixers thing. Just everything was on him game after game after game, and they won most of their games, which matters. Then Booser and Noah both... I wrote, Rose keeping the Bulls in contention for three plus months with Booser and Noah missed significant time was the most impressive thing I witnessed this season. Their quest for number one seat should have been derailed in November, blah, blah, blah. He kept them hanging around, kept them relevant, and they were the best team that year. And whether he was the best player was the bigger question because LeBron was still the best player in the league, but that Miami season was super weird. It's interesting. What I wrote in that MVP column was that I thought Wade had a slightly better case than LeBron that year because he was more stable and reliable. Lebron had all that. He was the villain that year. He was a little up and down. There were games when you didn't know where his head was.

But I really said both. They were basically co-MVPs, which I talked about co-MVP seasons of 1970, Reid and Fraser, '72, Jerry West, Will Chamberlain, and '06, Shaq and Wade. It was really hard to separate the two guys in impact. If I had to do it over again, I think I would have Rose one. I think I would have LeBron two, Wade three, and Dwight four. I think that's how I would go because those guys won 55 games. There was three guys. It was those two in Bosh, Mike Miller, who wasn't exactly awesome that year. They had Carlos Arroyo, Mike Bibby. They were grabbing dudes from the street. They were three on five, and they still went 55 and 27. Every game they played was the biggest game of the season for the other team. I don't know. When I look back at that, they were two of the best three guys in the league, other than to want to throw Dwight in there.

Can you imagine if LeBron had won MVP that year and then had the same finals that he had that season?

It would have been worse than the Dirk '07.

I mean, it would have been the all time... There would have been columns being like, We need to revoke the MVP and give it to whoever finished second, is what would have happened.

The thing is, the animosity from the decision, he wasn't winning MVP unless they won 60 plus games.

I also think it's okay. I think it's okay for voters when these super teams happen to take a year and just be like, I got to see what's going on here because the word valuable in there does give you leeway to be like, well, that one guy is so centrally important to his team. And all three of these guys just team up. It's why this is even a level up super team. But the moment Durant went to the Warriors, those guys were never winning MVP again. And I think that was fair. It's just the team's too good. There's going to be someone else doing much more, doing the same with much less than you guys have.

I think the Wade from '09 to '11 is the most underappreciated guy of the last 20 years, how good he was. For instance, Kobe- Why not start at '06? Well, you start at wherever. But those three years, specifically, I just think... I thought his '09 year was one of the best years any two guard had since Jordan. In '11, he's better than Wade. I wrote that in the MVP piece because Kobe ends up finishing fourth in the MVP. Wade was just better than him that year. He was just better. Pick a stat. He was better than him defensively. Kobe was still getting those all defense teams at that point. He wasn't the guy Wade was. Wade was just as good as LeBron. In the playoffs, he was actually better than LeBron, especially in the finals. I just think they were like this. Lebron that year was not, I don't think, better than Wade. He might have had better nights, but I just think Wade was the engine of that team, and he was the alpha of that team, really trying to keep LeBron's head into it. It wasn't until the next year that LeBron ascended and went to that next level.

But I thought Wade was... I'll never forget watching Wade that year, especially in the finals. I just thought he had it. I can't remember if it was game three or game four, but he had one game that was just... He was so fucking good in this game.

In the Dallas Finals?

Yeah, it was either three or four. He was just so good. I still remember being in the stands like, holy shit. I just felt like Kobe Kobe stole some of his sunshine, I think, because they were going against each other. And everybody at that point, Kobe had become, he was rising up the ladder. And I just think Wade was right there with him for years. And we don't think of it that way now.

No, we don't. And it would be interesting to do the all time shooting guard rankings one deep dive because Wade would be very, very high and was an elite two-way player who just, like his athleticism, betrayed him fast because all the damage that had been done to his knees. But you go back and you watch peak Dwyane Wade, and he just jumps off the screen. There is nobody who can stay in front of him. He's just a remarkable athlete. He could pass. The defense was there. It's just an unusual player. A guy that height who could block shots like that and protect the rim and play vertically was very unusual and very tough. Tough and fearless from day one.

That was the other thing I was just saying. I mean spirited, and I mean it as a compliment. Really really had an edge to him. Kobe did, too, but really carried himself with almost a level of anger when he played in a good way. But so that year, he was 26 a game, 6 rebounds, 5 assists. Kobe was 25, 5 and five. He shot 50%, played 2,823 minutes. Some of the minutes stuff this year was nuts. Rose played over 3,000 minutes. So did LeBron.

I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to bring this up. The top four finishers played 82, 78, 79, and 81 games. Is that ever going to happen again?

Right. That's the best thing with the Rose case is he just played. He played 81 games, 37 minutes a game. He was their entire offense. He was in fifth gear every game. You never saw a game when you had a night off. And so the more I staring at it and thought about it and read what I wrote, read some other stuff that was out there, I still think Rose is the right call. And the fact that it was that one-sided, I think maybe it It shouldn't have been as one sided as it was, but I think that is meaningful.

It shouldn't have been as one side as it was. I think it absolutely holds up as an okay to correct decision to make. It wouldn't have been my vote, but I think it completely holds up as an MVP case. And I think all of the... If there was ever a, we got this wrong MVP discussion about it, I think it would all focus on LeBron. I don't think any of it would focus on Dwight or Dwyane Wade or Kobe. I think it all coalesces around, did the voters punish LeBron for the decision when it was still obvious that he was by far the best player? Because the advanced stats will tell you LeBron was the best player. The advanced stats, not every stat, but the advanced stats will tell you that. I think it would coalesce around him. I think it's fine that he didn't win MVP that year. I think that's totally fair.

I think him and Wade were 1A, 1B, and I'm not even sure who 1A was. Wade was plus 10. 4 that year, and LeBron plus 10. 1. They were just so intertwined. I don't know how you can even say one guy was more valuable than the other. It really was amazing to watch those guys those first three years and it culminated in the streak. The streak, which was one of the great achievements. That was really Wade's last great run, I think, because even when they got to the 2013 play, obviously, he was starting to break down. There's one guy, I was trying to think, did anybody have an advanced case that we didn't really fully understand in 2011, but now we understand better in '26 if we were doing it with our lens. It's clearly Dirk Nowitzky. Clearly. I wrote some of this in the MVP thing, even though I had him eighth, where they were basically 55 and 12 when he played, and then something like that, 55 and 14. When he didn't play, they were helpless. He was the only guy in the team that could create a shot other than Terry. They had that Roddy Bouba.

They were trying to turn him into a for a lot of the year. Untouchable.

No, he was untouchable. He was untouchable.

Couldn't trade him. Then it all coalesced in the playoffs, and they found a defensive identity. He went up a level. But his advanced stuff was... Oh, they were 55 and 18 with him when he played, but he was plus 10. 3. He was 23, 7, and 3. So it was a typical Dirk year, 52, 39, 89. And they won 57 games. So there was probably a little better case for him. They had the fourth best record in the league. And that would be the guy, maybe if you had to do it over again, maybe he stinks in the fourth or fifth.

That's a good call. I remember writing at Sports Illustrated that year that the Mavs were a contender riding in plain sight because of their... He missed 10 games. I think he went one and nine without Dirk or some crazy number like that. And that totally deflated their place in the sanings. I remember that year, they played Portland in the first round. I believe that series is two, two. And there's the Brandon Roy game, and Portland wins games three and four at home, and everyone's like, Here go the Mavericks again. And then it just skyrocketed from there.

It's a great fork in the road where it really seemed like not only were they going to lose to Portland, but then they were going to have to blow everything up, and maybe that was going to be it for Dirk and all kinds of outcomes. And then all of a sudden, it flipped the other way.

Can I just say one Dirk Rose thing?

Yeah.

It might be the... I don't want to say rank injuries, but that injury, like heat Bulls, should have been an all-time great half-decade rivalry. It just had everything. Contrasting styles, contrasting cities, Noah calling them Hollywood as Hell, just defense first, a team that was perceived as a highlight, like Rob Dunke. It was just everything. And then the Pacers came in and filled the void, but it was clearly like someone's got to fill the void, and they were not as good as the... That should have been just four straight years of conference finals and just slug fest the whole way through.

Yeah, there were two great LeBron rivals that got crippled because I think KG's 2009 injury was the other one. The two biggest injuries in either conference during this whole stretch were the KG '09 and the Rose in '12, where you had teams that probably had a chance to win one, maybe even two more titles between them. And you look at the teams, Indiana was the best team they played, probably.

In the East?

In 2011 of '14 stretch that Miami played in the playoffs, it was probably the Pacers.

Indiana took them to seven and then six, two times, I think.

I don't know. That next team, I thought had potential, but they fell apart. Then you go to the in '15 when he went back to Cleveland. They played a '41, '41 Milwaukee team in '15. That early Yannis with some Chris Middleton. I forget who else was on there. They played Atlanta. They played somebody else, but I just think the league is so much better than it was 11 years ago. I couldn't believe some of the teams in these play-off teams back then.

Those four years, they were so visibly bored with not only the regular season, but the play-offs, too, in the East. I remember which Raptors year it was because God knows they humiliated Toronto enough times. But it was the one where Toronto had them 2-2 in, I think it was the second And LeBron had this all-time quote after they won Game 5. Like, yeah, I think it was something like, I've been in adverse situations before and this wasn't one of them. And it was like, wow, you're just like two-two in the playoffs. You're just like, yeah, we don't care. Just wake us up when we have to actually win.

Crazy. All right, that was a good deep dive. Lebronto. So you're keeping Howard as your boat?

I'm sticking with Dwight. The career from there careened sideways a few times.

Got weird.

Hit a snowbank, fell into a lake. There's a lot of bad stuff that happened.

As I was researching this stuff, I have amnesia with half the stuff I wrote. You and I did a back and forth piece about the 2013 Lakers as it was going sideways. We exchanged emails. That was like 5,000 words. It was like January or February 2013. It was when Dwight's season was starting to go sideways for the Lakers and Nash was looking old and Kobe was doing the thing where he's like, I'm just going to... I think it all culminated and Kobe just playing 48 minutes a game and then getting hurt. But that team went off the rails in the craziest way. We're writing about that in real-time, and one of the guys were writing about as Dwight. Like, oh, yeah, this probably isn't happening.

By the way, Dwight Howard, just for the record, I wanted to say this because I spent time looking this up. Dwight Howard, one defensive player of the year that year, I think it was a third in a row by a lot. He received 114 first-place votes. The following players were the other players who received first-place votes. And this was before the voting was public. Kevin Garnett won first-place vote. Can't argue with Kevin Garnett. You're in. Grant Hill, 38-year-old Grant Hill of the Phoenix Suns, got a first-place Defensive Player of the Year vote that year. Jokim Noah got one. Okay. Keith Bogan snagged a first-place vote. That According to SB Nation, Dr. Jack Ramsey on a broadcast claimed that it was him, the voter for Keith Bogan.

And that's when he lost his vote.

And the only other player who received multiple first-place votes with two, Chuck Hayes of the Houston Rockets. Chuck Hayes. Two first Low post, folks.

Low post, shutdown guy.

We all love Chuck Hayes. But whoever those two people are, take it easy with Chuck Hayes love.

Last thing before we go. We didn't get to our Utah thing. Maybe we'll do it next week. I read this book. I'm going to do a quick book review. I read this book called Masters of the Game by Sam Smith and Phil Jackson.

Oh, I have it. I haven't read it yet. So now I will be interested in your review.

They go through 75 players, and it's basically a back and forth, almost like how we did that Dwight Howard thing. It's a back and forth of their conversation with each player, but each one can basically zag into this different conversation. It's one of the strangest books I've ever read. I don't understand if they had a proofreader or an editor or anything. There's certain guys where they don't even talk about the guy. It's like, number, whatever, Anthony Davis. Then it's just the whole section, some story about Phil Jackson when he coached for Albany. There's factual stuff that's wrong. They say at one point, Lonnie Schelton got in a fight with Bill Bridges when it was actually Buck Williams. I couldn't believe how it was and why they didn't try to make it better. At the same time, I got 20 things out of it reading it. There were some really interesting tidbits, and it was worth zooming through. The biggest thing that I learned, and I had no idea, I As you remember, I used to love Pat Reilly's disease of B. I made a big thing about it in my basketball book, and I would always bring it up and all this stuff.

Apparently, it was actually Lenny Wilkins' thing that he called Championship Championship Fallout that he called during the year after the Seattle Sonics won. He talked about all these factors that happened in your team, and he named it Championship Fallout. I don't want to say Pat Reilly stole it, but Pat Reilly definitely renamed it into The Disease of Me in his book. Then I thought it was a Pat Reilly thing, but it turns out it was a Lenny Wilkins thing. That blew my brain.

Half of life is marketing, right? Yeah, did the Winklevii Facebook or did Mark Zuckerberg event Facebook? Who knows?

Championship fallout, it's called.

That review you just gave, there were some plot twists within the review. I thought it was going to be a full on pan, and then it veered into pretty interesting terms.

There was guys where it's like, I don't understand how that's all you had to say about Chris Paul. You couldn't have just done two paragraphs back and forth about Chris Paul instead he went this way. But at the same time, I was really enjoying some of the stories. I don't know, the book, I enjoyed reading it as I was frustrated by it because there were some tidbits that reinforced things I heard. They killed Elvin Hayes. They talked about Dave Cowens, what a maniac he was. But there were some interesting coaching stuff with Phil. Guys that he clearly liked. He loved Jason Kidd, and he didn't like Chris Paul. He was like, Chris Paul was like, Look at me, look at me. I'm the leader. Look at me. Jason Kidd was actually a leader. There were things to glean from Phil Jackson. Then Sam Smith covered the league. I really respect Sam Smith. He had some really good insight on these different teams he covered. You just had to dig out the interesting stuff in the book. And that was the takeaway. But this was one of the things Phil Jackson said. I was actually Sam Smith said this.

They were talking about Patrick Ewing. The Knicks go up to nothing in the Bulls Knicks series in '93. And he said, They go back to Chicago and Ewing says the Knicks just had to win one. And he goes, You never heard that from Michael. Down to nothing, he would say, We're going to win the next four. Ewing was just more normal than Michael. I was like, That's actually a really interesting point. There's two types of players, right? There's the guy that would go into Chicago up to nothing and be like, We just got to win one and get it back to New York. And then there's the Jordan Kobe type. He'll be like, We're fucking winning the next four. Fuck these guys. I was like, yeah, that's... So it got my juices going on all these different basketball things, but I was still incredibly frustrated reading it. So that's my review.

More normal than Michael is a section of the Venn diagram that encompasses most of humanity.

By the way, on Apple Books, this book is $2. You could just read it, download it, and zoom through it on your iPad and have a really good time.

Well, let's do a book talk. I'm about two-thirds of the way through the new Larry Bird book, Heartland.

Oh, what's the best thing you learned?

I mean, it's So far, it's all... He just got to Indiana State, basically, where I am. I knew a lot of his childhood growing up and his dad and his family situation, but I did not know as much about how long he was actually at IU before he left and some of the reasons why he left and what his roommate situation was. And just you really get a good picture of both French Lick and Terre Haute. They talk about the bars that people would go to and and some of the atmosphere around those early Indiana State games. It was clear they had something with Bird. And this international, I was not aware or had forgotten about this team of high school, or it might have been freshman year of college, All-Stars, that went and played internationally on this trip that became a disaster. They got into a ball, and it was crazy. There's a lot of good stuff in there. And I like that. I don't even know if we're getting to the Celtics in the book ever. It's all college in high school.

Oh, interesting approach. We ran an excerpt on the Ringer. I saw. A couple of other things from that book, by the way. Phil Jackson really loved what a tough guy, Karl Malone was. I almost wonder, I got to really rethink by Karl Malone because he obviously I was always glass half empty on every aspect to him and even created the 42 Club to try to make his resume worse because I really valued how bad he was in these end of the game things. He was talking about Just what an absolute intimidation guy he was and how he would intimidate Garnett, Rasheed Wallace. All these dudes wanted no part of him because he was just this tough guy. His elbows were always up and nobody really fucked with him ever. I don't think I've counted that in enough with him. That was one thing. Then he was talking about Shaq, just what an awful practice Puer Shaq was. He basically was like, as the years pass, you romanticize all the good things about a Puer, but it was like, Shaq Shaq just ruined practice for us. We would have to play four on four. Shaq just was actually a negative influence day to day because he just mailed in practices nonstop, and it really hurt us.

You hear stuff like that, and you're like, All right, that's something. It's not just about the stats.

Then you would go score 45 and be completely That's why you put up with it.

That's why you put up with it. But it was interesting. I'll check it out. I'm going to try to read a basketball book a week and give a little review at the end. He really loved Jason Kidd, though. Man, it made me wonder if I had Jason Kidd too high in my pyramid, whether he should be lower.

Why would that make you wonder if he should be lower?

I have him in the 40s. I'm wondering because that Maybe I'm discounting his shot too much. He was just like...

How could any coach not love Jason Kidd as a player? I mean, he's just next-level basketball savant and tough and plays defense. He's got to be a coach's player.

Well, I wonder, I did the pyramid before the 11 finals, and maybe I should factor that in more because he was awesome in that playoff run, even though he was running on fumes. Just being able to get Nowinski where I needed to go and be the leader of the team, all that stuff.

I loved that version of Jason, Old Man Jason Kidd, because he learned to shoot threes. He was like, I think I can make up a position where I play point guard and I never go in the paint. I just play Old Man, quarterback point guard, and I'm still such a good passer that it works.

Would you rather have Jason Kidd or Chris Paul if you could have one guy for their whole career?

Jason Kidd.

Yeah, I got to redo the pyramid. All right, see, I'm glad I read this book, even though I was frustrated by it. It really did get my juices going in nine directions. So thank you, Sam Smith and Phil Jackson. Two dollars on Apple Books right now. Zack Lo. This was a pleasure, as always. Thanks to Eduardo Ongahau as well. Zack's going to be back on his podcast on Tuesday. I have Fargo for the rewatchables tomorrow. And then, not sure, going to do some football, I think on Tuesday, and then, I don't know, on Thursday. And then potentially, I think I'm seeing you again on Sunday.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sounds good.

Well, you're traveling there stuff, but we're going to figure out some giving. Got some stuff. Zack Hello. Thanks, man. Thanks to everybody on Netflix and Spotify, and we'll see you next time around. Must be 21 plus in President Select States for a Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Get them a problem call 1-800 Gamble or 1-800 My Reset. Call 888-79-7777 or visit ccpg. Org/chat-in-connect or mdgamblinghelp. Org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma. Org, or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 sport in Massachusetts, or call 877-8 Hope, NY, or text Hope, NY, New York, for Louisiana. Call 877-770-7867.