Transcript of Make-or-Break NFL QBs, a CFB Preview, and the WNBA Renaissance With Todd McShay and Diana Taurasi

The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new episode of the Rewatchables yesterday. We did Aliens. It finally happened after 9 years. One of the most requested movies that we've ever had for the Rewatchables podcast finally happened. Aliens, one of the 10 greatest sequels of all time. So go Check that one out. I did a bunch of podcasts last week, including 2 over-under podcasts with Cousin Sal. We did AFC, we did NFC. If you missed any of that, please go check it out. Gotta mention the AFC podcast. I talked about how I got my daughter's boyfriend to, to place some, some bets for me in Massachusetts 'cause I was in LA. Did not know about the proxy rules. Yeah, there's some, there's some real rules with this stuff. And, and they've ruled that they not only are the bets going to be voided, and I learned my lesson. Apparently proxy betting not allowed. I actually thought it was, but that's fine. And now my daughter has to break up with her boyfriend. That was the other thing they ruled. No, I'm kidding. They're going to stay together.

But, but yeah, I did learn not allowed to do that. So all those bets went out the window. All that special time I had with Hank out the window as well. The good news is I'm gonna be in Boston and maybe at some point I'll make some more wagers down the road. So there you go, lesson learned. Coming up on this podcast, we're gonna talk football and college football with Todd McShay 'cause we need to have him on before the NFL season. And then Diana Taurasi, who was on the last Grantland Basketball Hour ever, who was on my podcast the first year, I think. When she was playing in Russia. Yeah, first or second year, I can't remember. She's back. We're gonna talk WNBA. We're gonna try to have a really fun women's basketball conversation where we don't hit all the stupid content guardrails that everybody hits and just talk about basketball. It's gonna be fun. We're gonna have a break, Pearl Jam, and then Todd McShay. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by FanDuel. The NFL is here and it's the most rewarding season ever on FanDuel with the all-time FanDuel Rewards Club. Every eligible bet can earn you points.

Win or lose, you still get points. The more points, the bigger the rewards you can unlock. Head to fanduel.com/BS to start earning with FanDuel Rewards Club. 21+ select states or 18+ DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. All right, recording this early Tuesday afternoon Eastern time. Todd McShay is here. College football season really kicking off this weekend, NFL starting next week. You want to start NFL first or college first? Your pick.

Let's go NFL first.

Okay. I've made— I always feel like there's 8 teams that can basically be realistic Super Bowl contenders, and even though Sal and I did the AFC and NFC over-unders last week, I still didn't have my 8. And I think I have 6, and I wanted to bounce off the other spots for you.

I always have a pen and a piece of paper.

I always have a pen. I always keep you on your toes.

Yeah.

All right, so here's who I have. Rams and Seahawks have to be in there, so that's easy. We got 2.

Yep.

I think from AFC, the 2 teams I feel the best about are the Texans and the Ravens. Texans because they have the best defense in the league. Ravens because of the schedule. I like Jesse Minter. Made all these cases last week. So I have those 4.

Okay.

I have the Broncos, who I think people are sleeping on a little bit from a talent on the roster standpoint. I think people are looking at them as making too big of a step back. I just like them more than the Chiefs. That's 5. Eagles, 'cause of the amount of talent they have.

That's 6.

So I have 2 spots left. One is for the Bills or the Patriots, and I'm biased. You might be less biased than me, but gimme your Bills or Patriots.

You can't have both?

No, no, I've decided I can't have both. I think this is a zero-sum game between those two.

Gun to head this year, I would go Buffalo.

All right, make the case.

I always worry with a, with a quarterback, a young quarterback coming off of, uh, the first successful season. What does it look like the next year after coordinators in the league have had a full offseason to prepare? Right now, obviously, you look at that wide receiver room compared to a year ago for, for Drake Maye, and it's like, it's not even close, right? Um, and so that, that gives you a lot of hope and promise if you're a Patriots fan. Um, I, I just think Josh Allen has the right coach, the right relationship. He feels ownership of this. I get the roster's not as good. Patriots roster top to bottom is better. I just, I, I can't bet against Josh Allen this year.

Well, history says that's a good guy to bet on because he just wins 11 games every year. I don't see the talent on the defense at all. So this to me would have to be a one-man show kind of season for him.

And I think he's enough of a one man, but, but it like, it won't shock me. There's one team that you're leaving off that you and I have texted about a little bit that I, I think is gonna surprise some teams. And I don't care how, how little rest they got.

That might be in my 8th spot.

Okay, go ahead.

One last thing on the Pats though.

Yep.

Because obviously people are— you're running into people all summer and you live in New England and people are going to ask you this stuff. What's your answer when people say, what happened to Drake in the playoffs last year?

He wasn't healthy and his left tackle wasn't healthy.

That's my answer too. It's almost like we colluded on answers.

Yeah, I haven't talked to you about that. I like— there There's no question in my mind that both guys were injured, and when— and you could see the difference. And yet, like, the competition elevates, it's the first time in the playoffs, I get all those things, and I'm sure that they played a factor. But you're telling me that that was the Drake Maye that we saw all season, and then he just kind of— he was limited in what he was able to do, and the offense very clearly was Did they— I mean, they, they kind of, they strangled it, you know? Like, they, they clearly were, were, were functioning with a quarterback that they knew had some more limitations than they were dealing with all season long. And then, and then, I mean, listen, it was a disaster in the Super Bowl, but when your rookie left tackle is not healthy, it's not going to end well. And Will Campbell was not healthy. I don't care what, uh, injury report said.

I don't—

I mean, Mensch and I had— I mean, we, we talked to the general manager and, and Wolf was like, like, there's no— like, he basically was like, he'll be healthy next year. Like, it was, it was more than a wink, you know what I mean? Like, he's our starting left tackle and, and we have no doubt about that and we have all the confidence in the world. That was not the guy that played left tackle all season and he didn't just forget how to play football or— and Seattle's defense is awesome, but That wasn't the product that, that we know he's gonna be moving forward.

Well, he had a torn MCL. He said that after the season. Torn MCL is an injury that has sidelined a bunch of people. So he definitely wasn't healthy. With Drake, I don't know if there was an injury he was hiding or if he was like really, really banged up and then there was an accumulation of hits, but he was not the same guy in those last couple games. And you know, if this was a quarterback that wasn't on the Patriots, I would've been like, oh, regular season Drake. But we'll see. Um, I— my last spot: Bucs, Cowboys, Lions, or Bears. Were those one of the 4? Was that one of the teams you thought I was gonna say to you? What was the team we were texting about? Chargers?

Yep, Chargers.

Okay, let's throw the Chargers in there.

Dallas and the Chargers are the 2 teams that I think are gonna have big years this year. I think this is the best team that Dak has had. I think he's I've never thought he's one of the elite quarterbacks in the league. Yeah, maybe you and I had this conversation. For the longest time, I was, I was a push, pushback against Dak guy. And in the last—

Was there a club? Did you have t-shirts, or was that just—

No, but I felt like I was, I was, I was in the minority. Yeah, but I was on the board of that club, you know?

Yeah.

Um, but But I think he's figured out who he is. I know, like, he knows how to distribute his leadership, the physicality. Like, I just— I think he's— I think he's primed to have maybe the best year of his entire career. They've got the weapons at wide receiver. Their defense looks not— in the last, I don't know, 12, um, let's call it 9 months now, approximately 9, 10 months now, the turnover from that defense um, systematically. And you would think losing Micah Parsons, but they've parlayed that into what I think is it. And, and I love the former Spider, new, new defensive coordinator. I just, I think that defense is going to be, let's say it's middle of the pack compared to—

15th.

Like 15th. Um, it's a totally different situation for Dallas. And I can't stand— I lived the ESPN life for 19 years, Bill. Like, nothing makes my stomach turn more than a Tuesday when the Cowboys have no business being in the news cycle and it's the A-block of a show. Yeah, but this year I think they actually deserve some of this attention that they're inevitably going to get. So I think the Chargers and the Cowboys are the 2 teams that are being— I can't say Cowboys are being overlooked, but I don't know they're being taken as seriously as they should be from a national perspective.

I think that's fair. We did it last week, we talked about that division especially when you look at the other 2 teams in the division. Like, both of those teams might be 11-win teams, the Eagles and the Cowboys. I think they have a real chance to make the Super Bowl. So that, that was the team I was leaning for.

I think Herbert's gonna shred this league. And I was— I also, I was, I was low man. I had, I had Love ahead of Herbert coming out of the NFL Draft. I was, you know, whether it was Rex Ryan or Kiper, like, and I, and I really liked Herbert and I recognized the talent. Like, it doesn't take a super scout to figure out this guy's supremely gifted, but he's never won. And my argument was like, winners win, and there's something about them. There's an it factor. I remember going into a meeting in Oregon, Eugene. We're up there for one of those coaches meetings you meet with. It was Cristobal. And then the quarterback normally comes in, they command the room, right? He walks in and the offensive lineman he brings in with him, and he kind of sits behind the offensive lineman. I'm like, I don't This isn't a vibe. I didn't love it. And it kind of explained some of the, you know, some of the questions I had about him. But I've seen him grow and mature. I think Harbaugh has done wonders for him in terms of his, like, confidence. And above all, I just like the weapons they have now, like, with this offensive system.

Just watching a couple plays during this preseason of Mike McDaniel and what, what that system is going to do, opening receivers up I, I think it's going— I think they're going to put up massive numbers this year offensively.

Right now he's 3rd MVP odds on FanDuel, 10-1. Better than Lamar, better than Drake, better than Matthew Stafford, only behind Allen and Burrow. The one thing that worries me, you know, they got the tackles back this year, right? They didn't have a left tackle or right tackle last year. They're on backups in both spots. They got both guys back, Slater and Ott, who are awesome.

Yep.

They sign a center, they lose him. Their guards are probably in the running for worst guards in the league. So the middle of the line, I would say, is a D-minus. And I wonder, you know, we've like, oh, the line will be much better this year. Yeah, it'll be better protecting the outside, but I wonder how teams are just gonna shove up. The good side for them is McDaniel has had a lot of experience having coming up with plays, trying to get the ball out fast. Yes.

Yes.

Trying to give 2 seconds or less, basically. So But I, I do worry about that. I don't mind lose— having 2 guys I'm worried about. Like, the Bears have, you know, 2 holes in their offensive line. It's like, okay, I think we can work around that because we have 3 really good linemen on the— in the other 3 spots. But having your whole middle of the line stink makes me a little nervous.

Yeah. And I go back to the Texans too while we're at it. Yeah, I can't figure out Stroud, man. I, I can't figure out, like, I'm telling you, I think you could put this up. I mean, the Rams would be number 1, but let's say top 3. It would be hard for you to convince me that there are 3 other rosters top to bottom better, if you exclude the quarterback position, than the Texans. Like, what Nick Casario has built there is pretty remarkable. But now you're going into your 4th season. they, they wisely, they, you know, they, they bring him back. He's the, the one year, um, rookie year's phenomenal. Last 2 years has been a massive regression. You hear kind of whispers and is there something else going on? What, what has led to this? But nothing, nothing specific. And I'm talking to people in the league and no, people in the league are like, I don't know, man. I don't know. And so in this offseason, has there has there been any change? Is there enough to, to believe that he's going to be a different dude? And the wide receivers have been injured, and he's— oh, you go back to college with Stroud, his slot receiver is the most important, um, position for him.

For— I mean, some, some quarterbacks have to have a great tight end, some quarterbacks need a big X. You go about whether— I think it was a JSN, I think it was JSN Jackson Smith-Njigba, like, he thrives when he has a slot receiver. And then Tank Dell got injured and, and he hasn't been the same since, really. And so making sure that spot is, is taken care of and what are they going to get from the receivers this year? And now all of a sudden you get the Higgins with the injury. But I don't know, I, I— CJ Stroud, if you said there's one player in this league in 2026 where like it hinges on— it could be completely stripping. Now all of a sudden we need a new quarterback, we're moving on from Stroud, and this thing— we got to regroup because now the clock's ticking with all these other players that we have here, and, and, and we can't find a veteran who can come in and replace him, and the thing kind of becomes a mess over the next year or two. Or they could be playing in the Super Bowl. Well, like one player, you know.

That's—

I was gonna throw 2 quarterback groups at you. After I did my circle.

Okay.

And the first quarterback group was make or break guys that I just felt like, this is it. We're either going this way or this way. And Stroud was the first guy on the list. He's 28 and 8 as a starter. Rookie year, 4,108 yards, 23 TDs, 5 picks, 8.2 yards per attempt, and looked like he was a guy and is now looking like the guy who's either gonna hold them back Or if he, if they can figure out, oh, we have a better running game now. We improved the offensive line a little bit. Still not great, but it's, it's a little better.

Yeah.

Wide receivers. We, we drafted 2 rookies last year. One got hurt, the other one's still there. We traded for Booty Collins. Dell's gonna show up at some point. We're probably better. And our defense is gonna be so fucking good. We just need you to drive the car.

Yep.

Just, just drive us from Boston to New York City and just don't get a speeding ticket and don't hit any other cars, and we're— and we might make the Super Bowl. And I have the same questions as you. Can you do it? Route—

like, you don't have to go Merritt Parkway with all the weaving in and out, you know what I mean? Like, right, it's like, this, this route's gonna be 4 hours and 10 minutes, but just get us there safe. Middle lane, cruise control, it's 67, you know, 72 miles an hour, whatever it is, and let's go.

We put gas in the car, you're not gonna have to stop. Yeah, we're leaving at 1:30 between lunch and dinner. You don't need to stop for food. Yeah, middle lane, just go straight, right?

We're in no rush to get there.

Don't even use your phone. We don't— you don't need Waze. You're just— I-95 the whole time.

Put an audiobook on, like a true crime, you know, like just, just relax, right?

Because I think the running game— Montgomery's, he's like a, like a B, you know. They last year, they had Fs, and this year now Montgomery, at least he can move the chains for 3.5, 4, 4.5 yards. when they give him the ball. And, and he's gonna have to lead a ton because the defense is so good. I'm with you, because then you also have the contract piece with him too, right? Because what happens if he's really good? Then you're like, well, is he really good because our team's awesome, or is he really good because he's actually good? So that's one.

Yeah, he and Bryce Young are in almost identical situations from that draft, right?

That was my next guy.

Both organizations want desperately for Stroud and Young to make that next step this year, or, or for Stroud to get back to where he was as a rookie. Um, Young's tricky. I, I think they've handled it perfectly. Like, Dan Morgan, I have a great appreciation for him as a general manager. They know they can't pay the guy off, but, but I did like— like, I thought he played pretty well in that playoff loss.

Me too.

I have— I think he's incrementally gotten better after a a disastrous start to his career. They've gotten better as an organization. They keep drafting well. Um, they, they've kind of— I don't know, I just, for the first time in a long time, I feel like they're stabilized as an organization. I really do.

Yeah.

And so now neither, neither franchise, with the Texans and Stroud and Panthers with, uh, with, with Bryce Young, were willing to, to, you know, go all in. And, and who could? But they also have handled it well, where you get the sense from them, whether it's true or not, it feels believable that we're fully behind them. We want desperately— and they do. They want desperately for both of these guys to take that next step this year and for them to have to go write a massive check to them. But we can't do it yet.

There's a lot of Ted McMillan buzz too, who I guess everyone calls T-Mac. But, uh, yes, but has a chance.

He got pissed at me during the draft for calling him TET. I got, I got, um, I got word back from, from his people that he, he does not like TET. First of all, you're lower on him than everybody else, so at least say his name right, you know? So yeah. Yeah.

Well, he came on like a freight train near the end of last year, and now it looks like year 2 might, might really— if you're gonna pick a wide receiver what wide receiver could really make a leap, I think he's probably the best pick. So Bryce has that. I didn't like some of the injuries and bad juju stuff from the preseason with them. That always makes me nervous. But same. But yeah, this'll— Bryce, this'll be like where Tua was a year ago, even though he already had the contract. But it's like, okay, we're gonna know for sure one way or the other with Tua. I feel the same way with Bryce. Like, this is it. If it's not happening this year, Maybe he starts bouncing around.

Yeah. And it's, it's a good draft next year to, to, yeah, you know, no matter where you're picking in the first round to, to get a guy to, to kind of plug into what they're doing and, and not skip a huge beat.

My last guy for make or break, and you might have one too, but, and I think Atlanta's gonna be terrible. We talked about it on my pod last week. I, I think they have a chance to be the worst team in the NFC.

It doesn't look good, right?

Yeah, they, they, there's just a lot of red flags. And, you know, they have Tua, who I think they were hoping could hold the fort until Penix was healthy, and obviously can't because he's not a, not a starting football quarterback anymore. So they're, they're banking on Penix, who they spent the 8th pick on the draft on. You know, it was 2 weeks ago, they— it feels like they drafted him. And this feels like make or break for this too. Like, if this doesn't work this year, maybe you zag the other way. There's so many good quarterbacks, maybe you try to be one of the 5 or 6 worst teams in the league, take your chances again. But do you see any chance that they can salvage him?

I mean, with that roster, I'm not sure, to be honest. And, and, and it was always about injuries. He had 45 starts in college, um, and, and had some ups and downs. Began at Indiana, I think it was, obviously finished at Washington. There, there were some times where you worried about his durability throughout his career, and college, has the ACL in November, right? And after 9 starts, some promising stuff. Like, I didn't, I didn't have him as the 8th best player in the draft, but I saw maybe late first round, you know, a player that, that could be a starter. But I'm not gonna, I'm not giving away a top 10 pick for, for this guy. I, it's also important to remember too, they didn't draft him. The guys who are making the decisions now, Matt, starting with Matt Ryan, uh, Ian Cunningham, who I've, I've known for since we were both pups in this business, great deal of respect for Ian. Um, there's something too, you want your guy, and then you're staring at this draft that we can— I don't know if we'll get how much we'll get to it in a little bit, and the list goes down to like maybe down to 10 or 12 where, where they look like first-rounders.

And, and you're also looking at a season where you think they're probably gonna be picking pretty high. And so maybe we get our guy and, and, and put our stamp on this organization and, and bye Tua, bye Michael. And, and then just let's, let's build this thing from the spot that you have to build it. So I, I don't have high hopes for, for Atlanta this year. I don't have, have high hopes for Penix with Atlanta. I, for him personally, He's a great young man. I hope that he has a good enough season where, where there's opportunity for him. But my guess is at the end of the year that Atlanta's gonna be one of these teams that we're just banging on in March and April as we lead up to the 2027 NFL Draft, as they're very much in the mix and they're worried like, all right, the Jets have 3 picks, Cleveland's got 2. Are they, are they gonna get leapfrogged? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah. They're, they're under in the over-unders. There's been a lot of action. on the under because I think people—

What's the over on that?

I think it's, it was 7.5 and now it's like kind of between, there's heavy juice on the under for 7.5 and slight juice if you go under 6.5. I like 6.5. Yeah, 6.5's right. What you said about we want our guys, when people take over like a movie studio or the TV side and it's like, yeah, we have, and it's like, well, I don't get credit for that if it works out. I'm just gonna get rid of those. I want to come up with stuff that we did 'cause then, We get the credit. In football, especially at Penix, 3 ACLs already. Haven't really seen enough flashes to me to be like, all right, let's try one more year. I'm trying to get another quarterback. I have 4 QBs at a very interesting inflection point of their careers. And you mentioned Herbert, actually 5. I'm sorry. You mentioned Herbert already.

Yep.

Josh Allen. We don't need to do the whole Josh Allen Super Bowl legacy. We don't need to do that. Drake Maye, we talked about already. The last 2, Burrow and Stafford, for different reasons.

Interesting.

'Cause Burrow, 6 years, he's only made it to the finish line in 3, hasn't made the playoffs since '22, is still being perceived as one of the 5 best guys, right? Bengals are being considered a playoff team. They're, they're favored to win 10-plus games, and people are always making excuses about the offensive line. They don't spend enough. And meanwhile, they, they went and they kept those 2 big receivers. But walk me through what happens if the Bengals go 8-9 this year and Burrow's not that good.

Oof.

And he plays the whole season.

And he plays the whole season, and it's just like, yeah, they're 8-9.

It's a great question. I, I actually think a healthy Burrow is— I, I think so highly of a healthy Burrow that that doesn't even compute for me.

So he's a guaranteed 10-win guy for you if, if he's healthy and can play the whole season?

Yeah, if you, if you give me best of or close to best of 100% healthy, good season from Joe Burrow, I think they're a 10-win team just because of Joe. I mean, the defense has obviously improved. They've actually done some positive things, but they still can't block. They still can't block. And I don't know how it seems like a problem. Honestly, I am such a— like, I just— he's a different cat. I can remember sitting in meetings with Brian Griese, and I sat in meetings with him at LSU and walking out of there and both looking at each other because normally we would have a sense of like, I don't know about this guy, or like, how good was that? And both of us being like, so what do you think? Like, I don't know. What do you think?

What do you think?

Yeah, I, I don't know. And I don't mean like, I don't know, it's like, I don't know. I mean, like, I legitimately don't know. Um, and then just watching his progression, I, I don't— there are very few guys that can maneuver the pocket, that could, that read things the way he does, that had the, the onions, as I like to say, to make some of the throws that he makes. Like, he's just different, man. He's just different. But this thing has eroded him. And, and like physically, emotionally, I don't think confidence-wise, but I do, I do wonder when that starts to set in. I kind of want to see him go somewhere else if this, if this year isn't, hey, we're back in the playoffs, things are rolling. I want to see Joe Burrow get an opportunity somewhere else where it's like, ah, here's Joe, like Stafford.

Right.

Who's, who's next up that we're going to talk about? I, I wouldn't mind seeing a Stafford-like situation. It wasn't as dismal in, uh, Cincinnati. They obviously made the Super Bowl. But like, I want to see elite special players wind up with opportunities where they can actually go and be themselves, you know?

Well, we see this in the NBA all the time. It feels like it happens 10 times as much in the NBA. But a guy of a couple down years, like, he's basically Devin Booker now in Phoenix, right? Some— somebody like that who we know can be swimming in the pool of, of the Final Four, of the title potentially, if he's your best guy or close to your best guy. And now is basically on .500 teams. It's like, well, I know there's more there. I wonder if they trade him. But then we've had people like Anthony Davis get traded and Durant traded or signed with new teams a bunch of times. I do think if they're not a 10 or 11 win team, I do wonder if he's on that team next year.

Maybe.

Yeah.

After 7 years, maybe you're just like, fuck it. Let's, who's ready to make us a Godfather offer? The Stafford thing is different, obviously.

Yeah, this one I'm shocked that we're talking about, but go ahead.

'Cause, 'cause Orlowski got me thinking, 'cause Orlowski had that thing on TV this week where he said they win another Super Bowl, he's one of the 7 best ever. And I'm like, that doesn't— I know we say stuff on TV, we make— we say list stuff, but maybe we don't have the list. The question for me is, can Stafford move into the top 10 and get the 10th spot, which I think the competition would be Steve Young, Brees, Josh Allen, ironically, who probably after everything said and done is gonna take it anyway. Bradshaw and Otto Graham and Stafford's thrown over 60,000 yards, MVP, Super Bowl win. It would be interesting if they won again. Remember Elway won the 2, he won the first one, but then they won the second one too. And it just completely changed. It tilted how—

Yeah.

We just saw him after that. And I think that's at stake for Stafford. I, I personally think he'd have to be the 10th guy on that list if they won the Super Bowl again. I don't know, where do you stand?

Who did you say after Brees? What was the second name?

What, um, this would, this would be the 10th spot right now. Steve Young, Brees, Steve Young, Steve Young, Josh Allen, Terry Bradshaw, Otto Graham, I think would be the next 5 in some order.

Well, here, here's what I do know. Orlowski's always been right about Matthew Stafford, but Orlowski's also been just a little north of of reasonable with it because they were teammates and all that. So I take what he's saying sometimes and like, yeah, you're right how special he is. You're right about all of that. But we're always going to go a little too far. But it does change a career when you look back on it, that second Super Bowl. And my gosh, is he lined up for it this year. I'm fascinated to see how, how it plays out with the, the health of Aaron Donald. Can they manage that throughout the year? I guess it's the skeptic in me. It's like every time we, every time we think that there's this super team in the NFL, that they're unbeatable coming into the year, it's usually dicey. Something happens. And I, and I'm not sitting here trying to get like send bad juju that way.

I like—

I love Sean. I love what they've done organizationally. I'm like, I'm behind everything that they're doing. Um, but, but I'm worried about that. But, but specifically to answer your question, like, I think he is different. I really do. I, I think, I think Stafford sees the game and then he's one of the rare ones. Like, Brees saw this, the game the way Stafford does.

Yeah.

Stafford just has better tools, right? Stafford can make a— make 4 or 5 throws in a game that Drew just couldn't, you know? And that's the difference. And then the longevity of it and, and ascending. Yes, yes, ascending because he had a different opportunity in a supporting cast, but ascending even like late years, like the year he just put up last year, man. it kind of like defies logic, right?

Right.

And the throws he's still making at that age. And sometimes you see, like, you know, I remember, like, was it Clemens late in his career, or like Pedro? Like, they lost their stuff, but they could still— but it feels like he's still got all of his stuff.

Clemens is a good— that's a good analogy for this.

Clemens, right?

Clemens had this whole extra 6 years in the 2000s, or 5 years, whatever it was, past his double prime when he was still like, he felt like he could go out and start a Game 3 of a World Series and throw 7 innings.

Yeah. And so I don't know, I, I think top 10 is absolutely in the, in the cards.

And I mean, fine, 7 is, 7 is not—

No, no. And then let's see what happens with Josh Allen. He's got a lot of career left, and Josh Allen's like Josh Allen could— if he— if Stafford ascends to 10, Allen's got the next X amount of years to, to go steal that spot from him. Then now we're looking at 11. But at the end of the day, you're one of the best— let's call it 12 quarterbacks to ever play in this game, right? It's pretty good.

I'm with you on the Rams. I'm, I'm a little skeptical because of the super team thing and the history of it. We talked last week on the pod about in the last 30 years, there's really only been one prohibitive favorite that's actually won the Super Bowl. It was the 2018 Patriots. who easily could have lost in Kansas City during that run, right?

Yeah.

Like, just a lot can go wrong, especially with a top-heavy roster. And I don't, I don't feel— I think Seattle has more talent. I think the Rams' higher-level talent, their top-tier guys, if you're gonna go 7, this top 7 versus top 7, the Rams are better. But I think Seattle has more talent. And we talked last week about, can you be a nobody-believes-in-us team after you won a Super Bowl? And I kind of feel like, like Seattle qualifies. Like everyone's just discounting them and pushing them aside and trying to come up with other teams. And meanwhile, they're basically bringing 90% of their core back, you know, including, including just about everyone on the defense, which was the reason they won the Super Bowl.

Yeah. And then I'm gonna contradict myself though.

Yeah.

And then you, and then you envision an NFC Championship rematch, right?

With Aaron Donald now playing 50 plays in the, in the NFC title game instead of 30.

And, and Miles Garrett coming off the edge and Yeah. And 2, and one damn good corner and, and another capable corner. And that was about the only thing that got them, you know? And, and now how does that look for, for Bradford? You know, I don't know.

Yeah. What's, um, let's take a break 'cause I, we have 25 minutes to rip through college football.

Let's do it.

This episode is brought to you by PayPal. Every winning team has that one player who can do it all. The new PayPal app, it's kind of like that. You can shop, pay, earn rewards, manage your account all in one place, plus find offers, deals, and stackable rewards. PayPal offer also offers purchase protection on eligible items, so you're covered if something doesn't go your way. Download the new PayPal app to get started and see paypal.com/protectionterms. Fun college football season ahead. I'm obviously invested with UCLA. The draft is gonna be incredible. The storylines are all over the place. And just when I thought I couldn't be more excited as the most casual college football fan possible, you come up this week with content saying that 17 guys could go with the first pick in the draft. And I think, I think you, it, you made the case and there's all these dudes. And I think the biggest case with this is the quarterbacks. what we've seen year to year the last few years, whatever we think is gonna happen in the summer, by the time we get to January, the thing's flipped. So you have, you have like, you have Moore and Sellers and Carr and Manning, Levitt, Chambless, Mensah, and, and Nico.

So you think there's, is there a world where all 8 of those guys could potentially go number 1 if the season shifted certain ways?

I think there's a world in which all 8 of them, if, if they all play to the level I think they're capable of, could wind up being first-round picks. I think also think you have to keep in consideration that, you know, last year a lot of people were on Drew Allery. Wasn't for me. Klubnik, I, I thought Klubnik was going to take another step. He didn't. Um, Nussmeyer got, right, got injured all season long. He had great camp. Klubnik's had a great camp. They both show they still know how to play football. But, but what's different this year is almost all those guys on the list have, have an opportunity to go back to school too. So we could be— we could re-rack this thing and be talking about 2018. But I don't— I, I think probably I would set the over-under at 5 for first-rounders of this group. But when it comes to the first overall, what's interesting about this class and hasn't been talked about a lot Like, Dante Moore— the Raiders were out sending their, their brass to, to games and really looking at this, in this situation, and it was a tough decision.

They—

like, there were people in the organization that favored Dante heavily, and there were people in the organization who really thought Mendoza was the guy. And then Dante Moore makes it— just makes it a non-decision when he, when he decides to go back to school for another year.

So would you, would you like and appreciate that he did that?

I thought it was smart. I thought it showed maturity. He, he, he, he was ready enough, but for the money you can go back and make and to give yourself another year of opportunity to grow and to come into this league where we're seeing guys like Bo Nix have success with 63 starts or whatever it is, guys are coming in with 30, like almost minimum 30 starts. And we're seeing a lot fewer, not, not in all cases, but we're seeing fewer and fewer of those like just dead-on busts, right? And I think a lot of it has to do with experience and maturity, and you've been through some adversity. But this year's class, it can go both ways with all of them. And even Dante, he's, he's the easiest one to say, yeah, he, he's the most likely to be the number 1 overall pick.

Would you say he was CJ Stroud 2.0 or CJ Stroud?

I think there's so much of turbo CJ Stroud.

Yeah.

Yes, I think, I think he's a little bit more willing to run, but definitely pocket passer first. Just that I'm saying a lot of the same things about, about Dante as I was about Stroud when he came out. It's best pure passer. The touch, throws a beautiful ball. It's like the receivers don't have to work to go get it. Um, understands the offense, distributes it, moves around the pocket. He's a little more willing to run, um, but neither has this howitzer of an arm. Good arm, can make all the throws. Uh, but the big thing for me is I need the big moments. Mendoza's tape last year, Bill, it was up and down. Dante Moore was the better quarterback. If you go and you just— every single play for both of them, Dante Moore was the better quarterback. But the moments, it was like 28 touchdowns, 0 interceptions in the red zone, highest efficiency third downs, fourth down. He, he threw, he threw himself into problems late in games. Oregon— I mean, yeah, Oregon, Iowa, Penn State interceptions. One was a pick-6 against Oregon, and then he made the play or the drive or the 5 plays late in the game that won it.

So he had those moments where you can see that he's just— he's, he's wired differently, right?

I love those guys.

I need, I need to see that out of Dante, you know? Like, we had that Indiana game, we're good, the pick-6, and then he has one good drive and then it falls apart again. Can't see that out of him this year because you know what, like nipping at his heels, this Lenore Sellers guy from South Carolina gets a new offensive coordinator this year. I'm telling you, 6'1.5, whatever, 230 built. He is as fast as he is quick. He's got a rocket for an arm. He's a— he's not an elite passer, but he's better than Jalen Hurts was. I think he's better than Lamar Jackson was coming out in terms of just pure passing. I think he's got a chance to be, to be like right there at the end this year if South Carolina with this, with Bryles there, Kendall Bryles. And then Darian Mensah is another guy that nobody's talking about. He's— I watched Mensah's tape and I'm like, how big of a gap is there between him and Dante Moore? And now he goes, he goes from Duke to Miami as, as the 2nd best or 1A, 1B in terms of pocket passing but he's a better runner.

Yeah.

Then you got Arch Manning, who, like, if he— if his eyes are in the right place and his mechanics are better and he's able to hit more spots than he was last year, his— I— going back this summer and watching him, I forgot how fast he is. Like, he's the— he's the antithesis of his uncles.

He has the Manning stigma. You just assume he's slow because he's related to Payton.

Or you assume that he's really like, he must have been in all the camps growing up and he much said, yeah, such an understanding of offensive and his feet must be great. No, he's not. He's just kind of a gunslinger who, when he takes off running, he just runs by with those long strides, runs by a ton of guys. And then CJ Carr at Notre Dame, he's not the biggest, he doesn't have the biggest arm, but I would argue he's got the best processing, smartest quarterback of the entire class. And he is so damn accurate throwing the ball. And I didn't need—

We said that about JJ McCarthy.

No, it's different, man. Okay, it's different. It's different.

People are scarred by JJ.

I could see that. And maybe, hey, maybe that'll be the thing this year. And you know what, they're not playing anyone comparatively speaking, all, you know, for the vast majority of the year. Yeah, I think he, I think he could easily win the Heisman. Notre Dame quarterback, 11-12 win regular season. But I think he's a diff— he's just, he's wired differently. He—

Well, you had Sellers and you had Sellers 2nd.

Yeah.

At least in your preseason rankings, which he is not on the draft boards. That's not a consensus pick, but he— no, it seems like you're the highest on him of anybody I've seen.

Well, we did a 7-part series in the show. Yeah. And doing all these quarterbacks and we're kind of pitting them head to head. couldn't do 14 shows, one on each. So, and, and I just kind of assumed going into the year, especially the way Arch finished, that like the— all the talk was who's number one? Is it, is it Arch or is it Dante, right?

Yeah.

And then we, we got done with that and it was like clearly Dante. Arch can absolutely make those next steps this year. People forget too, the Mannings like to stay— they like to overstay their welcome in college and, and be ready for the NFL. So Don't rule out him, him being in the '28 draft. And then we got to Carr and Sellers and a couple of the other guys, and it was like, yeah, I don't know. It's not only not one, you know, Arch versus Dante to be the number one guy, it's, is Arch even in the top 3, you know? And could Arch be the 5th best coming into the year?

You have him 4th.

I've got him 4th. And I think Sam Levitt at LSU with, with Lane Kiffin, who's in the, you know, all the headlines for all the wrong reasons, um, or all the, you know, the off-the-field reasons with, with now trying to bring pro players back. And I get it, like, let's blow this whole college thing up, um, and to get some, some leadership in place. But that's a different show. Um, there's, there are very few, like, he's in, he's in the one handful of guys in college where you see a player as talented as Leavitt, who's more talented than Jackson Dart.

Yeah.

More explosive runner, more dynamic, bigger arm. And, and you, and you watch Dart and the way he progressed, and then Trinidad Chambliss in one year coming from Ferris State, Division II, to see the way he progressed. And now you're giving him the most talented quarterback he's worked with since like his USC days and a full year to do that. And I get the schedule is difficult and all that. I think Sam Levitt, we could be in the conversation for number 1 overall when it's all said and done. But yeah, I mean, this class is— and, and by the way, did Chesney give you like— what's the update from your boy on Nico?

There's a lot of optimism right now on the UCLA side. Nico's like, if you're a new coach taking over a program and you get this guy who, who's super talented as your QB, who's actually had some success in the past, right? So it's like, it's fixable. Whatever was going on, you can fix it. Or you can accentuate all the good things about him and put him in the right environment. I mean, I, I do think he's a Heisman possibility. You know, I think they'd have to go 8-3, 9-2. But as a dark horse, I think, I, I think any of these quarterbacks as a dark horse. But you know, Vandal has them, I think Vandal has them 7+ wins is basically even odds. They're 22-1 to make the college playoffs. But they've been, they keep adding dudes. They just added the James Madison linebacker who's you know, was the, was the best linebacker in that part of the country last year. So I don't know what to think anymore.

Can we, can we take a step back and just look like I've followed your— I've gotten to know you well in the last couple years.

Yeah. When I'm in, I'm all in.

I followed you. I followed your career. The fact that you're talking to me about a JMU linebacker.

Yeah.

Coming into the portal is like, I—

It's the Sun Belt Player of the Year. This shit's happening at UCLA. Oh, I love it. But here's the other thing with, you know, and you see this with college football, we just saw it at Indiana. When you go from like, you have a fan base that's basically been in the desert with just canteens and some Fritos, and that's all they've had for 20 years. And now you pull up with like your fucking cheeseburger cart and you're like, hey, who wants to eat? Everyone's like, oh my God, is this real? Is this happening? So I think that energy from just them potentially being good again, I don't know, that can— we just saw it can transform everything. It can lift everybody up and magical shit can happen.

I don't think people nationally have a clue how good Nico is. In fact, I kind of wanted— I didn't want to write him off. I kind of was like, I'll let him maybe a couple of years. We'll revisit Nico. That whole thing was ugly at Tennessee.

Yeah.

Is there parent involvement? The money grab? And then I had a scout call me in October. He's like, yo, I know they're not like national picture. You're focusing on the top teams and all that. And I know you're getting ready for this year's draft, but when you get a minute, go watch what Nico's doing. And he's doing it with not a whole lot. And then I put in some of the tape then. I was like, yep, all right, keep him in mind. And then I watched the summer. He's got— he's got a toughness about him that I didn't expect. He's got an ability to bounce back from mistakes that I kind of was worried about when you think— when you kind of build a mental picture of, yeah, he's kind of going after the money, he's a mercenary, what's going on? But this guy loves ball, and you can't hide that on tape.

Yeah.

And then you watch this, like, 6-foot-5 gazelle when he takes off to run. And then you watch the ability at 6-foot-5 to make guys miss in small spaces. And then I start to watch some of those NFL throws, Like leading anticipation, drilling it from one hash to the, to the sideline. Like, there's nothing he can't do. Now, yeah, his deep ball accuracy was atrocious at Tennessee. Uh, they didn't drive it vertically as much last year. I'm interested to see this year if he can improve in that area. But otherwise, like, he's another guy I just like— don't rule him out when we start talking about like, fine, if it's not number 1 overall pick, it was a fun exercise and it brought a lot of awareness. Like, Mendoza was a 2nd-round pick for most, and he's the number 1 overall pick. And, and you go back, Cam Ward— I talked to a scout in September of his final year 2 years ago, and he's like, man, you're like, get off of Cam Ward, I've got a 5th on him. And he's the number 1 overall pick. And Jayden Daniels is the number 2 overall pick, and he was considered like a 3rd or 4th by most scouts.

So like, we went 6 out of the last 10 guys that wound up number 1 overall picks They weren't even considered first-rounders coming into the year, including Kyler, who was like the number 9 overall Major League Baseball draft pick. He wasn't even going to play in the NFL. So, so it's, it's a fun exercise. But when you start to look at all these guys and what the potential is for them, and you look at Nico, I, I don't know if he takes another step with the right supporting cast this year. People are going to have to— they're, they're going to have to pay attention. Because he's funny, because he's more talented than, than the guy that we're all saying like is probably going to be the number 1 overall pick in Dante Moore. He's just flat out more talented.

So Chesney at Holy Cross had this guy Sluka who he used to use, you know, like he would do these design run plays and just would really use his athleticism, which it was a lower competition, so it was helpful. But he kind of reminds me a little bit of what he could do with Nico where use his legs in these like really smart ways.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

There's also a couple awesome non-quarterbacks in this draft.

Yes.

Like Jeremiah Smith, who did, did you see the, what was that? The Caleb Downs was saying, he said in some interview that he thought Lamb and Pickens, he was like, no, no, Jeremiah Smith's as good as those guys. It's like, whoa, those guys are really good.

Someone remind Caleb he's gotta go back to the locker room. today too, right? Those aren't too, like, you know, easygoing. Yeah, I get it, you know, like, yeah. But, uh, but, and I, I actually answered that question, like, talent-wise, yeah, he's better than both of them now. Like, there's something to being a veteran, you know, having the experience and learning how to get off a press against grown-ass men and all that stuff. But, but from a talent perspective, and I feel like, yeah, we did it with Marvin Harrison Jr.

and, look, look, you know, I feel a little burned, honestly. Feel a little burned from the Marvin Harrison Jr. hype.

And I hear you, but, but here's the other part. Remember the, uh, Julio Jones, AJ Green class, uh, 2011?

Yeah.

And I wound up— it was, it was Julio, he's the best, best receiver in the class. And the comp for Jeremiah Smith is Julio Jones. That's who he is. Big. Oh my God. Get down, 4.4 speed downhill, just like a freight train running through you, but then can stop and adjust. But But I think the comp for, for Cam Coleman, who's transferring from Auburn— he goes out of like the refugee camp there where they don't have a quarterback who could play and winds up with Arch Manning now at Texas. Um, I, I think it's an— I think there's some similarities with AJ Green, kind of like that Gumby, like, elasticity.

Oh, interesting. So you'd have both of those guys ahead of anyone from last year?

Yes. Here's an interesting one. I'm not going to name it. The NFL has a couple scouting groups, let's call it, where they, they pool different scouts, like National Bless Up. One of them, I just went back for a reference, one of them has— and the grades are, they're, they're entry-level scouts in a lot of cases. I'm not— but it matches up with what our grades are in the preseason. But just for, just so it doesn't feel like we're overhyping it, right, mention that.

Yeah.

Um, like even the one of the scouting services that, and if they're like 20-plus NFL teams belong to, um, I think it was 20— I counted 24 players with grades this year coming into the season higher than the highest grade of a player last year.

You can even see it in, in hoops too, where they'll have the high school class that's coming in and they grade it from 0 to 100, and sometimes it'll be like 99, 97, 97, 96, and it'll just It's just like, wow, that year had more talent than the year after. I don't know why this football— because we didn't mention Dylan Stewart, the edge from Carolina, and then, uh, Leonard Moore, the cornerback from Notre Dame. Both of those guys seem like, yeah, Leonard Moore, top of the line dudes.

It's like he's like Pat Surtain, right? Like, just throw him in the mix with those like 10 quarterbacks we just talked about. And, and, oh, and yeah, and Colin Simmons after, after Dylan Stewart, the Texas linebacker, like And oh, and this Yonze Pierre from, uh, from Alabama at edge too. So there's 3 edges. Like, we could have another like Khalil Mack, Jadeveon Clowney type. Well, he's a better player, but this guy's a better upside.

Like, and then 2 killer offensive linemen too. This is a nutty draft.

So you could be—

you could have the 10th pick in this draft and get somebody who might be like a 3-time All-Pro.

Yes, yes. It's gonna be— you, you could have the 23rd pick in this draft and they might, you know, That range could be better. As I just was saying, that range could be better than like maybe the 7th overall pick last— or this year. So—

My last question, I'm not gonna— I'm not gonna ask you who's gonna win the national championship because you got to do that with Mitch on your show. For my people, for the people who listen to this who are both diehard college fans but also casual, just put it on on a Saturday, who is the must-watch team this year? Or give us like your top 3. Give us your bronze, silver, gold. 3 teams that are just gonna be guaranteeing the entertainment all year. I'm gonna have a good time watching their games.

LSU. I mean, LSU, is that—

are they bronze, silver, or gold?

I'm gonna go gold.

Wow, gold for LSU!

And they might wind up with 3 or 4 losses, but like Lane Kiffin leaving Ole Miss in the college football playoff, quarterback who he, he found as the 246th ranked JUCO quarterback, not player, quarterback. Brought him into Ole Miss and Trinidad Chambliss developed him into that game against Georgia that Chambliss had was the best tape outside of maybe Mendoza versus Ohio State that I saw of any quarterback last year. And then leaves and the quarterback's like, no, see you, Lane. Like, I'm, I'm good here. I'm gonna stay here. Uh, early in the season, they, they play Ole Miss. They kick off the season with Clemson. They now are trying to get 3 former NFL players who were in camp, signed contracts, back in. There's an— there's another meeting in Baton Rouge, or another hearing in Baton Rouge on Thursday with a judge who's got to determine whether they can block the TRO to allow these players to play. They can't play against Clemson, but so like to start the season, there's all this mess. And by the way, I think we know how the Baton Rouge judge is gonna is gonna—

yeah, I wonder. Keep us posted on that trial.

Then we get the rematch again, or the, the matchup against Ole Miss, and, and then you get Sam Leavitt coming in. So LSU and Lane Kiffin is, is the— like, they're absolute must-watch. I, I, you know, Oregon's gonna— Oregon's— Oregon and Texas have the best 2 rosters.

Hmm.

Texas, I'm more like— Texas is either gonna run this thing and look awesome and win a national championship or you're already hearing some like splintering and like this player was dismissed from the team and there's some social media posts. So Texas would, for me, as arguably the most talented team in the country, this thing could go— remember last year we had Penn State and Clemson came into the year, we talked about them as like these rosters, you know, they're, they're, they're ranked 1, 2. Neither of them finished in the top 25. Like Texas is either going to be like right there at the end or this thing could fall apart. I get that feeling.

And then I'm going to throw—

I mean, Signetti obviously in Indiana, but I'm, I'm gonna throw Miami in there. Watching, watching Cristobal like get over the hump last year and win some massive games and not have the errors late, late in the games, like, you know, clock management, those sorts of things. Now they upgrade over Carson Beck and bring in this Mensah guy that I don't think people have any respect for nationally, like how good he really is.

Yeah.

We just talked about that. And you've got the most explosive dynamic weapon in, in all of college football not named Jeremiah Smith in Malachi Tony, who's now gonna be a true sophomore. And I just, I, I think with their schedule in the ACC, they're gonna be in it late. And I think they're gonna keep getting better. I think they're, they're gonna be a freight train towards the— I actually, we already gave it out so I could say it here. I, I'm picking Miami to win the national championship.

Okay. So, so is that— because the, the other question I was going to ask you is, if you had to say somebody was going to be 2026 Indiana, who would you pick? But it sounds like it's Miami.

Yeah, let me look at my list here. Let me see if I can find another.

Um, I like the Miami pick.

Yeah, yeah, Miami would be—

I think that's good.

Miami would be the pick. That would be, yeah.

How many wins for UCLA?

8.

Yeah, I think 8-3 seems reasonable to me. And then maybe you get— maybe it's 8-4 because you get to the, you know, some—

We play 12 in the regular season. This is what I'm talking about.

Yeah, I should know that as a casual college football fan.

JMU transfer linebackers. And we got 8-4.

8-4 plus playoffs. The playoff win count as Like if they got in a bowl or something, we'll give you a bowl.

We're not going playoffs.

Oh, 8's happening. That's the best bet on the board right now, my guy. All right, McShay, say hi to Mench. Is he doing all right? Is he doing all right? Mickey Gasper and the, another Red Sox come from behind win, all kinds of fun stuff.

He's doing all right. We just did a little retreat out in Montana. the Menches and the McShays. So we, uh, we're good to go.

Oh, nice. All right, say hi to everybody.

Good to see you.

Don't forget about McShay's newsletter, which is excellent, and then the McShay Show, which is kicking into full gear, uh, starting this weekend. Good to see you.

Good to see you, bud.

Thanks. All right, Diana Taurasi is here. Not only is she one of the great women's basketball players of all time, she was a guest on the last episode of the Grantland Basketball Hour one day before I was I was basically out at ESPN. So we have, we have a big history. I had to have you on to talk about women's hoops and just what we're watching this year because you were in it forever. Yeah. You played in the league. What was your first year? Like '05?

'04 was my rookie year. Yes.

'04.

I played at Connecticut. Yeah. '04.

And now we have these teams, these are run and gun where we're over 100 points all the time. It's guard dependent. I think it's been so much fun to watch. And of course, all the discourse about the WNBA is all the stupid stuff that I have no interest in talking about. I've been marveling at how fun it is to watch women's basketball. What is different? Do you see it?

Yeah, well, I think everything, like everything in life, is— it's always trendy. And when I got to the WNBA in '04, the game was just super physical. It was an older league, right? There was a lot of— like, there was rookies that were 32. The league had just started. So it wasn't this young, energetic league. It was a lot of old veteran players that played a certain way for a long, long time. And I want to say, I think in '07 is when we hired Paul Westhead, who's the guru of GOAT, who originated the run and gun. And for his whole life, it was, well, that can't work. You can't win a championship like that.

Right.

And he came into the WNBA not knowing anything about women's basketball. But I mean, he didn't know. I don't even think he knew who I was. He had zero clue. But he brought this style of play in, and we won 2 championships in '07 and then in '09 with Corey Gaines. And I think that stayed around for a little bit.

Yeah.

But people, it's like anything. When they don't know how to teach it, they're not convinced with it, so they go back to their old ways. So there was a long period where it was heavy center-dominated. You know, every team had the center you come down and you throw it into and bop, bop, bop. And it changed in the last, you know, 3 or 4 years.

Yeah.

Cardoza, her style, and even Asia, who's been the best player in the league for half a decade. But yeah, you put your forward at the foul line, she faced up, tried to either do like spin move and get to the basket or shoot it. And that was basically everybody's offense.

And well, yeah, I mean, I played with BG for 10 years. I mean, every team had 2 6'5 stiffs. Just to match up with her.

Right, right. It was almost like the NBA in like the '50s and '60s. Right. But you know, you need luck with this stuff. And now we have all these guards that are, are coming in each year. There's been either one or two.

Well, and, and Bill, you gotta, you know, it's like you have to adapt the rules too. You know, for half my career there was no 3 seconds in the key. It's not like there was room to get in there and Eurostep. I mean, there was 6 people clogging the lane, you know, a lot like, you know, '80s and early '90s NBA where there's just no room to operate. So I think with the rule change and the 3 seconds and no hand checking, I mean, we could go on and on about that stuff.

Would you have had— what are your stats if you're in your prime in 2026 on the right team?

Well, I mean, I averaged, I think, 25 for like 5 straight years, right? I mean, free throws were up. 3-point percentage is up.

Points per game is up. I think you're, you're in the high 20s, maybe 30.

I mean, I, I think the way it's trending, um, you're gonna see someone average 30 in the next 2 or 3 years. And, you know, with the addition of teams, you know how that goes. You add a lot of teams, but there's also now a lot of more bad teams, as we see like in the NBA, where, yeah, people are gonna be putting up 42 every night if you're playing against a bad team that has nothing to compete for.

Right. And there's 3-point shooting is at a whole other level than it was.

Well, I mean, we watch, we watch the game all the time and I still have to adjust. Like, was that a good shot? Are we really just taking that shot now? We're just gonna come down and just take any wide open shot by any player? I mean, there is that different type of playing now that I think Westhead gave us that a little bit. But, you know, that's not how, that's not how we grew up playing the game, right? It was, reverse the ball, everyone touches it. Like, no one's touching the ball now.

Right. Well, do you think that— is that a regular season thing? Because I wonder, in the playoffs when the stakes are higher, are we going to see people pull up from the arc and take 30-foot 3s in the 4th quarter? I'm going to say no.

No. You know, in the playoff everything gets tighter, right? Everything, you know, they let you play a little bit more physical, um, possessions are less, you know, teams aren't turning it over as much, so you're not playing in transition. I mean, and I think those are the teams. I mean, Coach Auriemma would always say it. I think the last 2 and a half months of practice going into the NCAA tournament, all we worked on was half-court offense. He goes, that's the only thing that'll win you a championship. You can talk about defense and rebounding, but if you can't execute in the half court, you're not gonna win.

I mean, that was the Knicks. We just watched it in the, in the playoffs with them. Came down to execution late.

I mean, I've never seen a team be outplayed 4 straight games to be up 3-1. I've never seen that in my life.

What was the luckiest championship you won? Did you have a lucky one or did you—

Oh, that's—

Were all of them the right championship?

No.

But did you have one where it was like, man, some stuff went right for us?

I mean, in 2007, that's when we were just, you know, we were all in our mid-20s. We had no clue what we were doing. You know, it was our first, first year in the playoffs. We get to the Finals and we're playing the Detroit Shock. Bill Laimbeer's the coach. It's Swin Cash, Katie Smith, Tweety Nolan, Cheryl Ford. I mean, this is like— it's like Bad Boys— Bad Girls 2.0.

Yeah.

They just won a championship. 2 distinct ways of playing basketball. They were ground and pound, like you said, possession, rebound, throw it up, go get it. And we were the opposite. We were like, how many 3s can we get up? We played this fake matchup zone. which would give him fits. And that— there was no business winning that Game 5 in Detroit. But for some reason, you know, when it's your year, it just happens.

Sometimes it's your year. That's what happened to the Knicks. But, you know, sometimes you need a 7-foot-5 guy to throw the ball off somebody's back with 9 seconds left. I mean, a crazy tip-in and a couple things need to happen.

I mean, who would've thought Jalen Brunson would be this much of a problem on the court? And I, and I mean it, I mean it not that we didn't know he was a great player, but At, at a certain point I was like, can anyone guard this man?

Right?

Like, no one could guard him.

And he would seem like he was gaining strength and getting stronger as the playoffs went along, which it should usually be the opposite. He was like, they played like 97 games and he seemed— it honestly reminded me a little of Messi in the World Cup, how when you watch Messi, he was like 38 and he's obviously one of the smaller guys, but he's so freaking strong. and so low to the ground and just keeps coming and coming and coming and picking his spots. And he just figured it out.

Well, and there's nothing like mental fortitude. I mean, that Knicks team was on a mission. And, you know, I'm a Laker fan. I know, you know, we're—

Yeah, I'm sorry.

But, you know, it's not easy. It wasn't hard to root for that team. Like, they were all nice guys. Like, Jalen Brunson's a great guy. Mikal, Ja. I mean, they were just guys you wanted to root for. 'Cause they just played hard. And even Cap, I didn't hear him complain about touches once. He just wanted to win.

Well, that's what happens when you haven't won one. You hit a point— Doc Rivers always loves talking about this— you hit that point where everybody's gotta sacrifice something. And as long as people are willing to do it, it gets harder if you've already won and you have to come back the next year and start sacrificing again when you've already done it. Well, that first time you gotta do it.

Yeah. I always feel, I laugh when I hear the word sacrifice. 'Cause, you know, before every season, coaches will be like, all right, we have to sacrifice. And you sacrifice, you sacrifice. But there's always that one person, oh, wait, I have to sacrifice? I thought you meant them. You want me to sacrifice? No, no, no, I thought you meant them.

I'm not giving up shots.

You mean me? No, not me, Coach. They should sacrifice some minutes and some open looks. But yeah, that Knicks team was fun to watch. It was nice to see a team win. In that fashion because you hadn't seen it in so long.

Team ball, unselfishness.

You know what?

But— Defying the odds. It was fun.

But like, what team—

Even I liked it.

I know. What team that is great doesn't play like that? And that's why when, when these teams just put up with, you know, 1 or 2 players doing everything, I'm like, that's not sustainable. It's not gonna work.

Well, it was your guy Kobe, right? Well, in Game 7, 2010, he's having the worst game of his career and then had to figure out how to help the team somehow when he didn't have it.

Well, you forget sometimes you need someone to pull you through the hole. You know, I think sometimes when you're the best player, there's this notion of you have to do it in the big moments all the time. But like, it's usually someone else that like, you know, pulls you through the hole. And then, yeah, everyone will talk about Kobe and Jalen Brunson and, you know, Tatum. But, you know, even that Celtics championship, I mean, look at all those guys that stepped up that you wouldn't have thought would be the person in, in those finals.

Right. That's why I don't— I know they have to give the Finals MVP and it's helpful, like for somebody to me, like me that loves the history of the game.

Yeah.

And it's a good snapshot of who mattered. But you know, now they added the Conference MVP and I really do feel like it screwed up the Celtics a little bit 'cause Jalen won both.

Right.

But Tatum was the best guy on the team. And then we kind of never recovered from that.

That happens a lot, actually. 2007, it's funny, Cappy Pondexter got the WNBA Finals MVP. I mean, she deserved the 100%, but it happens where teams that you think that the A'ja Wilsons would always win the MVP and the Breanna Stewarts and all the great players, but sometimes it's only that 5, 7-game stretch where that's all that counts.

This is what happened to Tim Duncan. It happened to him in '07. I'm like, if you're the best player, I'm giving you the Finals MVP.

Right.

Unless this is so glaringly obvious that somebody else should have won. I'm giving it to the best player.

Always. I mean, like, even when LeBron was probably always the best player in every series he played in, just give it to him. He's the best player. That's what it is.

When did you become friends with Kobe?

So, you know, we had some touch-and-goes in LA early in my high school years, different events. You know, '96, it was, you know, he was on the Lakers and I was a freshman in high school. I mean, that's insane. And then it was mostly more on the Olympic teams. That Redeem team in 2008 is where we, you know, we practiced a lot together before and after, the hotel, the bus rides. I think that's when we really hit it off the way we kind of—

Well, you're both sociopathic competitors. You probably loved each other.

We're both addicts, and we kind of fell in love with each other because of that, because we understood each other. Like, when other people thought, oh, you can't go— you can't do it that way. Well, then you could do it this way, and you can be like everyone else. That's how we would look at it.

What was the best thing you learned from him?

God, I mean, his mental strength. I mean, we could talk about the work ethic. Yeah. But when I would watch him play, it was— that was the only thing that mattered on earth for those 2 hours. And if half the players that play basketball could have that, They would fall in love with the game, but they can't get to that point 'cause it's, it's really hard.

Yeah. Yeah. The, and the work ethic, like, 'cause you see it, you always hear this story from the Olympics when they put all the dudes together and the younger guys are with the older guys who actually know the routine and what to do. And they're kind of like, right, oh wait, you're getting up at 5 in the morning to go, to go climb the VersaClimber? What's happening? Well, at a certain pace, then you emulate it.

Yeah.

Well, at a certain point we're like, where's Kobe? You know, because we'd all get together at the lobby and the Nike suite, and we look up, he was always gone. He was always at the gym. He had his own driver, and he'd go to the gym 3 hours before, and then he'd leave 3 hours afterwards. I mean, the guy was just insane. He would find a gym. You know, we were in Beijing, found a gym everywhere we went. Just didn't matter. He was going to find a hoop.

I mean, LeBron's like that. Brady's like that. Jordan was like that. I mean, it seems like you can't turn it off after your career ends because it's like you were so driven. Like, all right, now what do I do?

Well, I think when you get, you know, in those later years in your career, it's actually the work that keeps you coming back. You get addicted to the daily routine. It's almost like it's something that you need to function. And, you know, was I always a worker like that my whole career? No. Like, when you're young, you don't understand that. You know?

Yeah.

You can just get up, get on the court. You don't have to stretch, lace them up. After, you know, the game's over, you do whatever you want. And as you get older, you start learning these routines and these patterns that almost become more important than the game.

Right. The structure of how to repeat a really good effort.

Over and over. And then there's—

But nobody learns that till later.

Well, yeah. Well, because then there's the physical part where you actually need it. You actually need— you actually need the 2 hours of prepping to, I don't know, do a shootaround.

Right.

And then that—

I mean, my daughter— my daughter's a Division III soccer player. She's a senior. And it wasn't until kind of this offseason that I feel like she totally got it. And she's like, I, I wanna have an awesome season. I'm working out every single day. And even like she had an internship, she's like, I'm get— I have to get up at 6 o'clock today to work out or else I'm not gonna be able to work out. It was the first time. But that's, that's it. I'm sure LeBron's like that too. No matter where he is, I gotta get up, I gotta work.

Without a doubt. And I think that's when you really become comfortable with yourself is when You know, you have an internship, and if you don't work out at 6, you're not going to work out.

So you got to do it.

You have to do it.

How— when, when you retired, did you feel like you had more years left, or you stayed too long, or you left at the exact right time?

No, I think I just— I hit the nail, uh, right on the head. I probably could have played a couple more years at the level I was playing. I feel like I, you know, but at that point there comes these little moments where you'd rather be somewhere else.

Right.

You know? But I mean, you—

I mean, counter, you missed out on some of the great stuff that's happened the last 2 years. I feel like you're one of the people that built the league and kept it alive.

Yeah.

You know? And now it's actually like, has real momentum.

Yeah. But you know what? I feel like I gained all the things that they'll never have.

Like what?

Like, World travel. I feel like I can, at this point as an adult, I can be in any room with any human being on Earth and be able to function. I actually live a normal life for as much as, you know, as many things that's come my way. I don't walk around with a bodyguard. I go to the grocery store. You know what I mean? Like, I haven't become a person that can't function in normal life. And I actually kind of love it. I don't take that for granted.

Yeah.

And, you know, and going forward, it's all the things we wanted, right? More coverage, more money. But with all that, you know, comes a different type of lifestyle that all these women are living differently now. Like, after games, we would all get together and go to a restaurant and have dinner. Like, you know, now it's just become you play, you get on a plane, you fly somewhere, you get a— You know, which is great for performance, but for lifestyle-wise, I don't know how much fun they're having.

Well, which, when you have more success, that, that brings scrutiny and backlash.

More money, more problems.

And then people using you. I always call it the volleyball because people, something, they'll just drift in. They just want to hit the volleyball back and forth with whatever they're arguing about and be like, oh, let's do it with WNBA. And they just bring it in, they hit it back and forth, they don't even watch the games.

Well, it's been funny with the WNBA because it's been a lot of new media, which has been great. Obviously, this is what we've always wanted.

Yeah.

And I've always said this where for a long time it was always fluffy, positive media, and that's not real. You have to find people that counterpoint and make these arguments. It's what we've always wanted. But it's a lot of people who haven't followed the league in a long time. So there's— they say things without context, and there's backstories to everything. I mean, you know, you can't make a comment about the NBA without the last 30 years of knowledge that you know.

Yeah.

Because each thing kind of is the result of something that happened maybe 10 years ago, whether it's, you know, CBA or what happened with a team or players. There's a lot of backstory. And, you know, I think the more we acknowledge that and the more we study that, well, then, you know, the commentary could become educated and a little bit more, you know, intelligent instead of, you know, so visceral. Like the fouls. I mean, it's basketball. Everyone fouls the shit out of each other. Like, you know what I mean? Like it's, yeah, that's what it is. You're trying to score. I'm trying to stop you.

Yeah.

Just wait till the playoffs, whatever, whichever guard, really good guard on whatever team gets to the last 4, final 4 or whatever. Olivia Miles, when she's going to the basket, it's gonna be a little different.

Well, we know this though, you know, and I think as fans, we have to go back to the competition part. I think that is the one thing that, you know, with all the rule changes and it's kind of strange. It's like the more money you make, you know this, they try to shelter you a little bit more. I mean, we were making pennies and we were We were just— we would run through a wall. Hamstrings, back injuries, broken hands. It was like, why are we doing this? We're not making any money.

You left. Oh, you left and nobody blamed you. You were like, why am I doing this? I'll go make more money somewhere else. This isn't worth it.

The last time we chatted, I was in my living room in Russia.

Right.

And we were talking about the Warriors. That was the last time. Yeah. And I was in Russia and I was making the money that I wanted to make.

And well, that's why I think people who actually care about this and wanna see the league continue to prosper when they do stuff like when they, they did the 3 expansion teams, which I, I hated.

Yeah.

I just don't think there's enough talent for it. You mentioned how like, yeah, the, the points are gonna be up because you're gonna have nights where you're just playing a shit team. But that's when you overexpand too fast. That's what happens.

Well, I mean, it, it happens in every league, right? I mean, half, half every league we have all his 80 years of history. I mean, half the nights I put on NBA League Pass, and you can give me front row tickets to 99% of those games, I wouldn't go.

Right.

I mean, it's just a lot of bad teams. A lot of— and we talk about— and I'll go back. We talk about there's not enough talent for the rosters. There's not enough talent to coach. How about coaches?

And how about officials?

Well, that's another conversation. Yeah. What league doesn't have bad officiating? I mean, you watch the NFL and you're, you know, oh, that's a terrible flag. You know, the only, the only sport that has it right is tennis because it's robots.

Do you, do you, anybody jump out, out of these younger people that you're watching like, wow, that's one of the most special women's basketball players I've ever seen?

Well, I think Olivia Miles is a special talent.

I've been trying to tell people.

She's, you know, I think she was a little under the radar because she did leave Notre Dame and she went to TCU, which was a little bit of a smaller school. But, you know, this kid is doing stuff that we, you know, she has Kyrie-like handles. She can shoot the basketball. She's, you know, she can get in the lane. And I always said, if you can shoot and you can pass, you can play forever. So when I watch her, when I watch Paige, you know, when I watch Paige play, I see the complete package on and off the court.

On Olivia, you can see it, how she's defended, which I think is always a good, a good litmus test of how good somebody is. You're watching, she has a head of steam.

Yeah.

And the people are going backwards and she has everybody on a rope. And then you mentioned Kyrie earlier. She has that Kyrie move when he sticks his right arm all the way out. and holds it kind of ahead of the defender and is able to put the layup off the glass with a, with like a nice soft one. She just has it.

She's tremendous. And I mean, to be put in a position where, you know, you go to a team that, you know, they have everything, you know, roster-wise. I mean, what a— what is an incredible opportunity for her to be on a team that is expected to win a championship. Obviously we know what, you know, their coaching staff's like and the pedigree of players that they have. I mean, it's a perfect scenario for her to really be in the driver's seat in this league for the next 10 to 12 years.

Right.

And then, Bill, when I see Paige, I just see everything with Paige. A lot of times you have the player that can control the locker room, necessarily doesn't have the talent to have that weight when they say things to their teammates. She has both. I mean, she walks into a room and everything just changes. Everything just changes when Paige is in the room. And you can see it with her team.

I think that's a dangerous first-round team. Oh, oh, I think that's— Like, I watched the game when they beat Indiana, like, 10 days ago or whatever, and they just— both guards were going, then Rique got really going.

Yeah.

That's kind of a nightmare matchup. It reminds me of in the mid-'90s, in the playoffs, when it'd be best of 5, and you could just go against the wrong— you play, like, the Suns, and all of a sudden you're down 2-1 in a series 'cause 2 of their guards got hot. But I wouldn't wanna play them. And I, I gotta say, I really like the way Indiana's playing too. I mean, it felt like, felt like the, all the outside stuff was suffocating, especially Caitlin. Just didn't seem like she was having fun playing basketball. And then the last, last month or so, I, I keep saying they remind me of those Nash Suns teams where they just go, go, go. Everything's built around her. They have 2 awesome guards. I don't know who's gonna win the title, honestly.

I don't, I don't know. But if, if Caitlin and and Kelsey keep playing like this, they're going to be the hardest out in the playoffs. I mean, they're going to be so hard to guard in the playoffs. I mean, what Caitlin doing is right now is just unheard of. It's kind of ridiculous when you think about what she's doing. But yeah, you know, I, I've always said this about her, and I've always admired this about her, and, and you alluded to it. There's just so much stuff around her, but the minute she walks onto the court, it all goes away for her. You know?

Yeah.

It kind of all goes away. And there's a different thing that drives her on the court. I'm not sure what it is. But man, when she gets going, and the numbers that she's putting up, and doing it and winning, right? Like, that's the whole point is to do it to make your team better. And she does that every single night. You know, and then, and now we get to watch them all play on the national team. So it'll be fun.

All right, so you're not gonna believe it, but I didn't agree with the World Championships decision either. I thought they had— you have so much momentum from the season, you're just stopping.

Should I call Sue? Should I tell Sue?

Does she agree?

Well, I mean, it's funny, we've never, we've never, we've never had a break for World Championships. It's only been for Olympics. This is the first time. I know, this is the first time we've ever done it. I know, it's, uh, you know, but that's the life, you know, the WNBA has always lived. We've always had to live in these different worlds where other things take precedent. People miss training camp. We got to stop the league for the Olympics. And now it's happening again for FIBA. I think we're coming to a point where the WNBA will finally take priority. And hopefully it's soon. But yeah, I hate the break. It's the worst. It's terrible. It's terrible for the teams that come back and don't have shit to play for. Right. And it's terrible for teams Who are trying to get to the 3rd, to the 4th seed. You know, like, it's just, it's tough all around. It's kind of something we've always done. And, you know, as a player for a long time, you kind of just, whatever jersey you put on, that's what you do. You immerse yourself for that 2, 3 weeks with USA Basketball.

And then the minute you get back to, you know, Vegas, Indiana, Dallas, Phoenix, put that jersey back on and you give it a go.

I don't love it. I think certain teams had momentum, certain teams were losing momentum. I don't know, because there's a little rock-paper-scissors with the league this year. It's been fun to gamble on actually. But you know, like Golden State's like the defensive team, right? Vegas has Asia, but the guard's a little weak. Indiana's super fun up and down to play. Dallas is like the wild card, um, and kind of who plays who. And then the Liberty, I don't Well, they've been so banged up all year. I don't know what to make of them.

Well, I mean, who would want them to play them as the 8 seed? That's, that's kind of what we just talked about. That's a crapshoot too. You play, you play New York as the 8 seed. I mean, what a reward for being the 1 seed.

Can we talk about this A'ja Wilson thing really quickly?

Mm-hmm.

I don't like it cuz you were my GOAT, but if she wins 5 straight MVPs, I don't know what to do with this information now.

I mean, you do what you do with it. I mean, that to be MVP 5 times, that's unbelievable.

Nobody does that.

No one does it. I mean, who did it? Did Dream even have 5?

No, nobody in the NBA has done this.

Not one.

Not one NBA player. No NFL players. Nobody. Nobody does this.

You know, I mean, how could you not say she's the GOAT if she wins 5 in a row? I mean, even with 4 in a row, it's kind of like no one's ever done that either in the WNBA, you know? And to do that and win. You know, I think that's been the most impressive thing is she's carried— obviously early they were just loaded. They had just tremendous young talent. And now, you know, she's had to carry a big load of it.

Right.

And but the thing with A'ja that's so impressive, I've never seen a player— and I'm always— I always have these deep conversations with other basketball minds that I trust, and I'm like, you are who you are. There's not a lot of players that, you know, I met earlier on in my career that just became a great passer, a great decision maker. or a great shooter, yeah, you can improve a little bit, but usually who you are is who you are. When I saw A'ja in college, I would've never thought she would've got to this point, to be honest. And that's just a credit to her being in the gym. You know, people always say, well, you know, during the summer, I want to add this. She actually did it. Every summer, every offseason, she's added something. That's really hard to do.

And when people are like, oh, she could do this, this, or this, and they guess wrong every time, and she just either goes by them or shoots over them and just gets whatever shot she wants every single time.

Well, when I say someone's gonna average 30 or maybe even 35, it's gonna be her. I mean, no one— yeah, literally, she is a matchup nightmare for every single team. There's maybe like 2 or 3 players in the whole league that could, you know, make it tough for her.

Yeah, I don't even know. Is it a smaller person who's like physical? Is it somebody with more size so she can't— I don't even know what the answer is.

Yeah, I mean, I guess it's multiple, you know. Coaches love that. We can't give 'em a steady diet. I don't know.

I would try to run them up and down and get in a shootout with them would be my move.

Well, you know, and, and a lot of times when you're the best player, you usually play, you usually guard the shittiest player on the other team. So, you know, it's not like you'd get her in foul trouble either.

So you think, it sounds like you think Minnesota is gonna win.

I mean, Minnesota's strong. If she comes back from this world championship at the level that she's used to playing, which is, yeah, pretty much unstoppable on the court with her and Miles and the way Kayla McBride shoots the ball. I mean, that, that's a tough, tough team to beat.

And home court advantage. Yeah, I always judge it by the shots in the last 4 minutes. Do I like the shots you're getting? Right. I always, this is what I always did with the NBA. I always like their shots. I always feel like they have all these options late. And if worse comes to worst, Miles would just go by somebody and create something.

Well, I mean, we always said there's nothing like having shooting and passing on the You know, if you have an abundance of that, you can run whatever play you damn want. 'Cause the game of basketball, all it's about is getting the advantage. Like you said, you just need an advantage somewhere to create. And a lot of teams don't have a lot of those players. So the offense gets really hard. And, you know, I mean, we see that with the NBA where, you know, there's teams that just can't get good shots at the end of the games.

All right. So you're in this UConn documentary that Apple did.

Yeah.

Geno's a big piece of it. Polarizing guy. If you're just watching from afar, very easy to come to the conclusion, I don't like that guy, I think he's annoying. Yet everybody that plays for him loves him and defends him like they would, like, their uncle or their dad or whatever. So make the Geno defense for me.

It's funny because I watched the documentary, obviously, and I wasn't sure because, you know, sometimes when you watch things, you don't always get the full story. And in a documentary, you can't always tell the full story. You only have a certain amount. And it's funny because I watched him and I liked him even more. So that makes me a little bit of a psycho. He's a mastermind, Bill. He doesn't have to say one— I mean, if you think about the 3 hours of the documentary, how much basketball did they talk?

Right.

Not a lot, right? It's not like they were breaking down plays in late-game scenarios. I mean, this man just knows how to get you to do things that a normal person wouldn't do.

And everyone stays loyal to him after. Well, because you want to see what happened.

You— and, and it's funny because there's people in the documentary that didn't have a great relationship with him, you know, throughout those 4 years. And to be honest, the first 2 and a half years, I mean, we would just go at it. We would just butt heads all the time because he just will not— he, he will He will press you until there's nothing left. And then you have to build yourself back up. And then you have to— you have to figure out if you really want to be here and if you really want to do it. And he was like that from day one to the last day I was at Connecticut.

There was a documentary about Tennessee and Pat Summitt in the early 2000s, I want to say. I think it was on HBO.

Yeah.

And it was a big template for what we wanted to do for 30 for 30 because it was like, We're going in, you're gonna learn about Pat Summitt and this team. And it was so riveting. But the, the, my big takeaway, I still, I don't even know if it's online anymore, was just how intense it was day to day with her and the players and the emotions. And the games would end, people come in, they're like sobbing. It was like game 16 of the season, like 6, 6 girls sobbing around the lockers. And she would come in and, and it was just fascinating to watch somebody with that much control over their universe. And it seems like he's the same way. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. I remember watching that one, actually. Remember, she iced her ankle for like 48 straight hours because she rolled the ankle and she slept in the locker room.

Yeah, yeah. It was the first time I ever saw anything like that. We're like, holy shit.

Yeah, they weren't—

there was a lot of intensity.

You know what, those, um, there's a time in your life, I think, where you can handle that, and it's definitely when you're in college. Right.

When you're young and dumb.

Yeah, when you're young and dumb and you don't know any better and you're searching for things that you can hold on to to make you a better player or better teammate or whatever it may be. But I think those days are over. I don't think you could do that anymore. So it means even more. Like, I think when you watch a documentary like that, you're watching something that I don't think you can do anymore. It doesn't exist anymore. I mean, you definitely can't do it in the pros. Right? Like, can you even, can you even like do 10% of that anymore?

Your guys are making $30, $40, $50, $60 million a year. The moment they're unhappy, they can just push their way out.

Get out. Get out.

That's why we have so much coaching upheaval every year in the NBA. I think Spoelstra is the oldest. Spoelstra is, I think, the oldest coach now.

The longest tenured. I, yeah.

Kerr's second, and Joe Mazzulla might be in the top 5.

And it's really funny because you actually— before you go there, he walks into your living room and he tells you exactly what he's going to do. And you're kind of like, OK, that sounds good, which sounds terrible if you really think about it.

Right.

And then you get there, and it's boot camp. It's hard. Everything's hard. Every single time you walk into the gym, it is mentally and physically taxing. There was no day where you would walk in and you would let your guard down. You were always in fight or flight. Like, that was just— that was the type of environment that he created.

Does it bother you that UConn women's basketball just in general is regarded in America the same way kind of the Duke men's team has become? Where you're like the team people root against because you had so much success? That's just your lot now. You're the Yankees. You're Duke basketball. Like, that you're the Patriots with Belichick. You're just in that mix now.

I mean, I guess that's what happens when you win a lot.

Yeah.

You know, everyone loves the, the underdog story until you become the person that wins all the time. And then it's like, is this fair for the sport? Is parity bad? No one ever liked basketball when there was parity. I liked basketball when it was Duke, when it was UConn, when it was the Bulls, you know?

Yeah.

When it was the Patriots, when it was the Lakers in the 2000s. That's when I loved sport the most, you know, the Yankees. When you have these dominant, amazing teams, and it's— people, I think people take for granted how hard it is to do that, right? How hard is it to get all those players on the same page? I mean, we've seen all these super teams that just explode because it takes a certain character, a certain personality, certain coach.

And you don't have to be best friends either, right? Brady Belichick, we're 6 Super Bowls together, that it's okay that they're not going to go vacationing in Lake Tahoe.

Well, I, I think the, the whole being friends with your coach thing is a crock of shit. Like, I think that's what's made, you know, the environment of coaching and players these days so up and down. You want to be my friend? You want to be this? Like, I don't need a friend. I need a coach. You know, I have friends. I have friends. I have friends I go and talk to and talk shit with. Like, that was the one thing with the coaches that I had to play for that always brought out the best in me. We had a personal relationship, but we weren't friends. They weren't worried about my well-being, you know, every single day. I mean, that was the beauty of Coach Westhead. Coach Westhead would walk into practice, we'd practice for 2 hours, and then we wouldn't see him ever again. We would, we would get on the plane together, we'd get off the plane, and then we would never see him again.

Yeah.

Until shootaround. You know, there wasn't this, let's go get coffee, let's go talk about the game plan. There was a separation of church and state.

I wonder, like, if this is part of the social media era and just in general well-being and all the, all the mental health stuff that's happened over the last 10 years and awareness for all that. And just coaches screaming at players just doesn't seem like it fits in anymore.

Well, I mean, you know, back then you just walk into the gym and you practice. Now, the last 2 or 3 years in the WNBA, there would be a coach there. So, D, how do you feel from a scale of 1 to 10? I'm like, what the fuck? I'm fucking 42. I feel like shit. Leave me alone. Leave me alone. What are you talking about? What are you talking about?

I don't want to talk about my feelings.

And it's almost worse because all they do is talk about the feelings that they do have. You know, it's like more feelings and more all these feelings. And, you know, I've always been, you know, I'm, you know, old Italian family, just shut up and do the work. You'll figure the feelings out later. Like, always, you know. And I don't think you could do that anymore because, you know, once you let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in.

What do you do competitively now to, to get your fix? So it's got to be something.

Tennis and golf are my, like, go-tos. Like, I love tennis. I played tennis as a, as a little kid, and I always loved it. Um, and then I just, you know, basketball got in the way of that. And then, um, and then I love the golf. It's the, the 2 things I, I really do enjoy.

Tennis, doubles or singles?

Singles.

Singles?

Singles. Yeah.

Head to head.

I mean, I, I don't need, you know, like, I've played a team sport for a long time. I just want to do it. I don't want to worry about someone else's feelings.

Forehand or backhand?

Forehand. Backhand, I need—

Forehand. So you're loading up on the forehand?

Western forehand grip, and I just let it go. Actually, yeah.

I wish there was like a celebrity tennis tournament. I bet, I bet it would be fun to watch you in that.

I think the US Open— John McEnroe does one, um, every year. I'm still not where I want to be to play in it, kind of like in golf where they go to Lake Tahoe, and getting there.

All right, Dana Taurasi, a pleasure as always. Um, will you come back during the playoffs?

Always. Let's do it.

All right, you're gonna watch, right? You know, that's another thing, sort of.

You know what happens when you retire, Bill? It's like you, you keep all— you, you watch the game and all I see is mistakes.

Oh, you become one of those people?

Yeah, I know, I know. That's why I like to watch tennis and soccer, because I, I can watch it as a fan. I'm still on that threshold where I watch it, and I'm still watching players I played against. So maybe another year. But yeah, I'll, I'll come on with you, Bill. Always.

All right. Good to see you. A pleasure as always. Thanks. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Todd and Diana and Gahau and Eduardo. Don't forget, Rewatchables: Aliens is up, and I'm gonna be back on my podcast on Thursday, hopefully. With a special guest who comes once a year. I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed. We'll see if it happens. Anyway, see you Thursday. See you Thursday. Must be 21+ and present in select states. For Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877- 877-770-7867. 877-770-7867.