Transcript of 447: Part 2: The Shady Truth About Nichol Kessinger & The Watts Family Murders

Hi, it's me.

I miss your face. I was just calling to say hi.

Nichol Kessinger, the mistress.

She wasn't charged.

She wasn't even considered a suspect. But millions still believe she knows more than she let on. Kessinger says Watts deceived her, though, never wearing a wedding ring and lying, saying he was in the final stages of a divorce.

This man has a gorgeous house. He has beautiful babies. He has a beautiful wife. Does an awesome job. Like, why would he want to leave this?

Hey, true crime besties! Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serial Asleep. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialously with me, your host, Annie Elise. Now let me catch you up here, because if you're looking at the title of this, you probably see that this is a part 2. This is part 2 of the special update episode to Chris Watts and Nicole Kessinger. Now if you have not listened to part 1 yet, I highly encourage you— actually, homework— I demand you to go back Listen to part 1 right now. You definitely need all of that for context. Then hop back over here for part 2, because today in part 2, we are doing a full exposé on Nicole Kessinger, Chris Watts' mistress, and who a lot of people believe was involved, which we're gonna get into in today's episode, in the infamous Chris Watts family murders. Now, like I mentioned in part 1, obviously a lot of people are already familiar with this case. I mean, it's hard not to be. In 2008, if you said the name Casey Anthony, everybody knew who you were talking about and everybody knew what happened.

And now in 2026, if you say the name Chris Watts, nearly everybody knows who you're talking about and what happened. However, what isn't as well known are the details leading up to the murders, the inconsistencies after the murders, the weird behavior from Nicole the afternoon after the murders, and all of the conspiracies surrounding whether Chris acted alone or not. If you also already listened to part 1, you know that we talked a little bit about Nicole in that episode, but part 2 is really going to be more heavily focused on her. Was she involved? Was she just the innocent mistress who got caught up in this horrible situation? Was she playing some sort of role in the cover-up? Why was her phone pinging in odd spots it shouldn't have been pinging the day of the murders? What happened with her time card the afternoon of the murders? There is so much that I have found along the way. I mentioned in the earlier episode, I've gone through hundreds of pages of phone records, court documents, highlighting things, going through her history, her internet search history, and there is a lot of information in there that we need to dissect and talk about.

By the end of today's episode, I think you'll be able to answer the question for yourself of what did Nicole know and how closely was she involved? However, really quickly though, before we get into the episode, you know what I say? Do your own research, form your own opinions. Everything in today's episode is either alleged from court documents or my opinion solely. So do your own research and form your own opinion. But that being said, let's get into the Nicole of it all.

So Nicole had an interview with the police on August 16th, 2018. This was 3 days after the murder of Chris Watts's entire family, where he just annihilated everybody. This interview was over 3 and a half hours long. And the entire time she is just rambling and then talking her way through it and convincing these FBI agents that there is absolutely nothing to see in regards to her. And she does it in a way that is just truly incomprehensible and frankly mind-boggling. Now let's start within this interview. Nicole says that after meeting Chris in June of 2018, she didn't know Shanann's name. She didn't know it right away and that she didn't even know her name for a while, although he did mention having a significant other.

Uh, your relationship with Chris and what you know about about Chris and his family and events relating to Chris Watts?

He mentioned that he did have a significant other, and then he told me that those 2 were in the process of a separation.

Did he mention the children's name or his significant other's name?

Um, I didn't know his significant other's name for a while.

So if this were true, If she truly did not know Shanann's name and she didn't learn of it until, you know, well after meeting Chris and starting their affair, tell me, how is it possible that she was searching for Shanann's name and using her specific name in those searches? And those searches dated back way earlier, before she even met Chris. Now, originally there were reports that she was searching Shanann back in 2017, and around that same time she was also searching Chris's name. However, it was then disclosed that it was a typo, but that there were proven search histories that showed that she was searching Shanann in January of 2018. However, that is not completely correct. Now, I discussed this in my previous video, but after even more research, I learned that there was a significant detail that really gives me pause. So this is coming directly from Crime Online, and I will link this article in the show notes so you can see it for yourself. But it says, last week a records supervisor at the Frederick Police Department said that an entry in one of the phone data review reports showed that Kessinger did an internet search for Shanann Watts on September 1st, 2017, and that it was a typo, and they referred Crime Online to the Weld County District Attorney's Office for further clarification on that entry and on additional entries in a different section of phone data review showing that Kessinger searched for Shanann Watts in January 2018, which references multiple deleted searches for Chris Watts dating back to August of 2017.

Following a series of email exchanges and phone calls with the Weld County District Attorney's Office regarding the reports, Crime Online spoke by phone to Weld County District Attorney Michael Rourke on Monday. Rourke said that the reports reflect what was shown in the forensic analysis of Nicole Kessinger's phone. Michael Rourke said, The dates to which you are referring in 2017 where it appears she Googled or otherwise searched Shanann was data that came off of her phone. It is not a typo error in the report. The detectives are reporting what was contained in the data from her phone. I don't know the answer to the question of why or how those dates ended up in her phone. When, if the district attorney's office questioned or planned to question Kessinger about data suggesting she was aware of Chris and Shanann for up to a year before the murders, Roark said that Chris Watts' guilty plea precluded any need to further probe the results of the forensic analysis of Kessinger's phone. We did not get to the point in our investigation of attempting to independently verify that or not because Chris Watts pled guilty. When you ask me if I have verified that information, the answer to your question is no.

Nicole Kessinger told us that she met and started the relationship with the defendant in 2018. So where that anomaly in the data comes from, I can't answer it for you. I don't know the answer to it.

I mean, a pretty loaded statement, and I'm going to break it down a little bit too for you.

But many suspect that this is actually why Nicole's father kept saying, quote, if Chris confesses, it'll be the end of the case, right? Always like kind of wanting to make sure that it'll be the end if he just confesses, that they won't look into his daughter anymore. And a lot of people also think that that's why Chris confessed so quickly after he failed that polygraph test. So that he could essentially save Nicole from being implicated in any of this. Now, what stuck out in that statement to me the most is they are saying there is clear data from the district attorney's office saying she had searches in her phone dating back to before the murders, before she even met Chris. Why those weren't further investigated was simply because Chris pled guilty and confessed to everything. Which is so crazy to me because even though he confessed to it, there's clear forensic data that showed something was afoot. Why else would she be searching these people a year in advance of dating him, a year in advance of the murders? It does not make any sense, and it just feels like a big red flag. Another thing that doesn't really add up as we continue to go through Nicole's interview, all of the footage, all the documents, all these things, Nicole said that she and Chris went on their very first date around her birthday, which was July 7th.

She said that right before Father's Day, Chris told her that he had kids, which she apparently thought was really cute, and he also told her that he was separated from his wife, so she assumed he was just a single dad. However, on Father's Day, which was June 17th in 2018, well before their very first date when that whole interaction happened according to Nicole, Shanann wrote a public tribute on her public Facebook page to Chris about Father's Day, and we know now through the data, through everything, that Nicole was searching and watching her Facebook account. So she would easily see this and know that they are in fact together and they are not separating, negating her claim that she was under the impression that they were mutually divorcing this entire time. So as she's being asked these questions during this interview, Nicole starts becoming frustrated with the officer who was asking her these pointed questions, and then she actually started even talking over him, saying that she can't remember the details now.

You know, anything like that, if he ever made any kind of statements that you were like, whoa, that was weird, um, or why would he say that, or why did he mention that? Do you understand what I'm, I'm looking for?

No, I completely understand. I just feel like some of this happened so long ago that I can't tell you, like, the exact words of the exact conversation at the exact time and place because it's like we had a lot of conversations. I mean, we talked every single day. So it's— so if there's like— I'm trying to help you guys with the stuff, like the stuff that's more current, I can give you guys a lot more like detail and exact times. But when you're asking me about something that happened 6 weeks ago and exactly what was said, it's like, I mean, I'm sure I can give you a general idea, but to be honest with you, like to pinpoint exact words, it's not gonna happen.

I'm not looking for exact words.

Nicole also tried to say that after seeing pictures of the girls in Chris's house, that she was wondering why he wanted to give all of that up. It seemed like a beautiful life. He had these beautiful girls, this amazing life. Why would you ever want to give that up?

And we were there not very long, but that time I saw a picture of his wife and one of his kids, and I remember thinking to myself like, wow, she's so beautiful. And I like took a step back and I was just like, this man has a gorgeous house, he has beautiful babies, he has a beautiful wife, He has an awesome job. Like, why would he want to leave this? And I remember talking to him about it, and that was the first time that I tried to actually say, what do you think about not separating from your wife? Like, what if you really try to work on this? And he had expressed to me that we've tried to work on this and it's not working, so that is why we're separating. And I spent some time, like, just, you know, kind of— because it almost made me feel bad where I was like, to the point where I'm engaging in a relationship with a man who, the way he described it, is in a contractual agreement but was not in like an emotional relationship with somebody. Um, and for me, the way I would have preferred to do this is to have waited till that contractual agreement was also done and he was done.

And he could have approached me and said, I just had a divorce, you know, maybe we could take this slow, what do you think? But instead it was, oh, we're separated and we're working on a divorce. And that is the part that I feel bad about because I should have waited on that and I didn't. And, you know, I was just like, well, they're already there. So, you know, but then being in that house, I was just like, why? Fix this. Find a way to fix this. Make it work, you know? And, and I would, I would, I was like trying to push him to do it, and he seemed pretty reluctant to do it. He didn't want to. And, um, I don't know, we were still seeing each other fairly frequently, but I kind of like backed away so we weren't hanging out quite as much. And we were still close, but it was just— Like, I really wanted him to try. Like, I wanted to know that he tried and it didn't work and then he moved on. Not— Not that, you know, they both kind of tried and then he got himself into a situation with somebody else.

And I don't know, I just thought he had a beautiful life going on. And he could have made it work. That was the way I looked at it from the outside.

So is this something you reflected on since this event, or was this you—

No, I was doing it then.

Like you said, this, this doesn't look right. He's kind of— I don't want to be responsible for breaking up a marriage, especially with 2 children. Is that kind of the gist I'm getting here?

I didn't think it didn't look right. I mean, I, I think he was legitimately sleeping in the basement, and I don't— I didn't think that these two were, I mean, I think it was like, hey, we're both stuck in this house for now. We gotta sell this. In the meantime, you live here, I live here. We sleep in different rooms, take care of the kids. That's just like kind of how I took that. And, um, no, I didn't think it didn't look right. I just thought it just seemed like he had so much going on and it was just beautiful that I was like, why don't you just try this out, you know, and see if you can fix it? And he'd always be like, well, what about us?

What about us?

I'm like, don't worry about us. Like, that is more important. Like, try to see if you can, like, salvage whatever it is that you have going on with your wife. And, and, you know, I always got the impression that he was a great father to his kids, like, always. And so, you know, I was like, and be the dad that you want to be. I was like, and see if you can make it work. And he just— like, we kind of talked about it off and on for, like, a few weeks, and I was just kind of like, I don't know. Like, I think I was kind of, like, cold-feetin' about it when I went—

after I went over And she says that she actually had encouraged him at one point to be with his family and to make his marriage work. And the way that she says this is very, very disturbing to me, almost like, yeah, we had an affair, but I'm actually this really selfless person who was trying to encourage him to make his marriage work. I was telling him he had such a beautiful family, why not try to make that work? And encouraging him to get back together and rectify things with Shanann, as though she is like the martyr in this.

I remember when he was in North Carolina and he was like trying to patch things up with his wife and he told me he loved me and I was like, don't say that to me. Like, please go try to fit. And I mean, and that might even be in the text too. It's like, don't, don't, like, don't say those words to me and then go try to make peace with your wife and lay in bed with another woman. Like—

But the reality in all of this is that she was extremely in Chris's life, involved in a relationship so much that she actually had literally ridden in Shanann's car. But in her mind, surely the detectives must believe that she's just this innocent bystander, right? She just happened to have sex with Chris, but she's a good person. I mean, she literally tries to act like their relationship was barely anything.

Nothing.

Casual. Yet her phone logs showed that they called and texted nearly every single day. But Nicole wants you to believe that she was actually trying to, like, counsel Chris to repair his marriage?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it even gets way more obvious and gross as we continue.

So next they talked about her phone and collecting the data from that, and Nicole responded to this again in a very odd way. She said, I feel like this situation is crazy regardless whether I give you my phone or not. And then her dad kind of interrupts and he says, well, if you do, it's just going to reiterate everything that you've already said. Now I do want to make note of this because if, again, if you haven't followed this case closely, Nicole's dad was in that interview room with her almost the entire time. Actually, I think pretty much the entire time, which is not standard practice. But he had a previous relationship with the police department. There's also some allegations about his pull and his influence, which we may get into. Let me decide. But it was not the norm. And it very much came across throughout the entire interview as though he was coaching her answers, as though he was shutting certain things down. And it just felt like not only had Chris potentially tried to protect Nicole from being implicated, but now her father was as well. Now, we already know at this point that through the 2,000 pages of discovery, we know that Nicole tried to delete as much as possible off of her phone before even going into this interview with the police.

So then when her dad said that and said like, oh well, it's already going to just reiterate everything that you already said if you give them your phone, right? Nicole responded and she said, yeah, well, I mean, it's kind of a good backup. A good backup? I don't know. I don't know. Listen.

He's not going to look at your phone right now. He's going to put it on a disk and they're going to give it to me.

Gotcha.

I don't know. I really want to help you guys. I do. I feel like, um, I'm— this whole thing is just gonna be crazy regardless of whether I give you my phone or not. I mean, that's kind of how I look at it. Like, it's happening. It's gonna happen. Well, the texts reiterate what you've been saying all along, so it's not like— Well, they do, that's the other thing too. I mean, that's kind of a good backup, yeah.

So after going back and forth with the detective for a while about giving them the phone so that they could go through her photo history, her text history, her call logs, all of the things, She told the police that there's nothing else than what is on her phone and that everything is in there, even though at this point she had deleted so much of it already. She was trying to tell them everything that you would possibly want to know is in there, not acknowledging, oh no, I actually wiped my phone, but you can have whatever's left over of it. There has been a lot of discussion and speculation about her dad's ties to law enforcement. None of them have been verified, so I don't really want to go into it too much further, But I will just throw that piece of information out there. Now, here is where it gets truly disturbing. In Nicole's final interview with the police on August 23rd, 2018, she said, quote, I mean, it is what it is. I've only been working with them for 4 months.

It's kind of disappointing because they told me, you know, I informed them of the situation and then They contacted me like a day later and they said, oh, you're good, don't worry about it. And then they contacted me the day after and pretty much just let me go. And it's like, well, I mean, it is what it is. I've only been working with them for like 4 months. They don't really know me that well.

Now, I'm not trying to go all conspiracy nut here, I promise you guys. But if she's saying that she's only been working at Anna Darko for 4 months, We— she met Chris in June, so does that mean that she actually started before that in either April or May? Because that would have had to have been the case at the time of this interview. So I'm just trying to figure out how we even reconcile that. And also, how do you explain the deleted searches that turned out to not be typos where you were searching for Chris Watts back in August of 2017 if you didn't start working with him until April, May, or June of 2018? And also searching Shanann Watts on September 1st in 2017, months and months before you ever even met Chris. And then she searched Shanann again in January of 2018, still months before she entered a relationship with Chris. So like I said, all of that forensic data was in the discovery and it has been pulled and it has been talked about. And the district attorney had said that the reason that they didn't investigate any further into those Google searches of Chris and his family back in 2017 They had just said like, hey, well, we didn't get to the point in our investigation where we needed to independently verify anything because Chris confessed, he pled guilty.

And they also said that they had absolutely no reason to investigate Nicole Kessinger at that point in time and that it was not a witch hunt. Not a witch hunt. Nobody's trying to make this a witch hunt. They're just trying to figure out who in fact was a player in this, who is truly responsible for this. So if the dad does in fact have any sort of influence or ties to law enforcement— again, trying really hard not to put my tinfoil hat on right now.

I'm with you. We definitely need to accelerate the case because the more long— the more it takes, the less sure that they are of situations.

But is that perhaps why this wasn't investigated further? Because on what planet, guys, Have we ever talked about a true crime case where somebody who is an accessory to a murder in one form or another is not implicated, is not gone after, is not investigated?

I don't really know what to do. I feel like if I talk to them, they're either going to try to, like, find some holes in my story or try to get me to, like, be Chris's only ally. And I don't really feel like dealing with either one of those.

You better believe if there were searches in— I don't know, let's talk about, okay, The Idaho 4 case. Let's throw that out there right now. You're telling me if there were searches in somebody else's phone about Bryan Kohberger before then, about Kaylee, about Maddie, about any of them, that people wouldn't be investigating that?

They—

that they wouldn't try to see if there was any sort of connection there? And maybe that's a poor example because I do believe that Bryan did act independently. That's just my belief in these murders. So maybe there is a better example I could give. But what I'm just trying to say by that is like, in no case that we've ever talked about has there been clear evidence that is in the discovery that looks shady where somebody just turns a blind eye to it?

So why is that happening here? Why on earth?

Especially not to mention when there is clear motive on the table, clear motive as to why Nicole would want her boyfriend to do that so that they could be together because he did have a baby on the way, or clear motive because she could have helped with the cover-up. I mean, it just makes no Not to mention the element of lying to the FBI, because if you're lying to the FBI of all people, it would usually end far differently for the vast majority of people, more than it did for Nicole Kessinger in this case. But I'm not trying to get all hung up on that, so let's move on to more red flags and even more discrepancies according to evidence that is outlined in that 2,000-page document of discovery, because this is not the only time that she lies. Not even close, guys. Going back to the first interview on August 16th, Nicole said that the second day of Shanann being missing is when she decided to stop talking to Chris, saying that he was far too casual about the whole thing. She said, in fact, on the second day, I cut Chris off. That's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the first day, because I was just like, no way, I didn't even think about that.

I mean, murder was not even at the top of my mind when somebody just doesn't come home for an evening. Especially if they've just had some sort of heated argument.

That's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the first day, because I was just like, no way. Like, I didn't even think about that. I mean, murder was not on the top of my mind when somebody doesn't come home for an evening, especially if they've just like had some sort of like heated conversation. It's like, okay, you guys are separating, you have a heated conversation, you leave for a night. Like, I didn't even think this guy killed his wife. I mean, that, that like murder is not something on the top of my mind when I call one of my friends for 3 or 4 hours and she doesn't answer the phone. Like, that doesn't even process to me as like a real thing that is a possibility at that point. And so that's why I gave it a day. And then the second day I was talking to him, he was just like a hot mess. I could tell. And then with— Like the way he was talking to me. And then that's kind of when I cut him off and I stopped talking to him.

But that's not true again, because she did not cut him off when she says she cut him off. Because according to the discovery, her final call with Chris was actually when she was suspected to have been listening in on a call that he had with the detectives. So as the detective is asking Nicole about the seriousness of her and Chris's relationship, Nicole says that she never had any intentions of even moving in with Chris, that it wasn't that serious to her. And she made it very, very clear to Chris all the time, apparently, that she wanted to just take things very slowly. She wanted to have separate lives until the time was right. She didn't look at it as anything more than casual. Sure, Jan. Sure, Jan. Listen.

For you and him, it was just for him and his children?

Oh yes.

It wasn't— you weren't— had no intentions of moving in with him?

No, I have my own spot. I still have a lease there till July. And even then, like, he never asked me to move in with him.

Okay.

And I never tried to move in with him. I mean, I told him, I mean, I really tried to take everything with this whole situation very slow. The only part that I screwed up on was the fact that he wasn't completely separated from her when him and I decided to spend time with each other. That is where I screwed up. But other than that, everything else, it was always like, you know, you build your life, I'm gonna build my life. We will intertwine them, but I am not ready to like do this. And he respected that. And I, and I, um, I even said that, and I don't know if that might be in the text, but said that 2 words like, Chris, like you need space. Like you're just getting out of a divorce. Like personally, I think jumping into a new relationship is a little quick. It's like I was in a relationship earlier this year and I think this is also a little quick. And I'm like, so why don't we take our time? And I'm like, if you guys end up doing a week on, a week off with your kids, I'm like, the week you have your kids, be with your children.

And the week that you don't, I'm like, I don't even want to see you every day. I'm like, I think we should spend like a few days of that together. I'm like, because I like my space and I think you need your space. I think you need your space to like develop your identity again and like get it back. Because I think he's just been like— So wrapped up in this whole thing that he's got in his own life and his life that he— I mean, he doesn't remember probably what it's like to like be single or have time where it's like just him.

Sure.

And so I was just like, you know, like embrace that. I think it's a beautiful thing and I really try to like take it smart with all that.

Hi.

So tell me this, Nicole, if it was so casual and if you wanted to live separate lives and if you weren't pushing him into a relationship or to officially leave his wife or anything like that and you didn't even want to move in with him, Why were you looking at wedding dresses for over 2 hours if you just wanted to take things slowly? Why would you Google something like if a man would marry his mistress if you just wanted it to be casual? And that is the next Google search that she did after she was searching dresses for 2 hours and looking at wedding dresses. She looked up, will a man marry his mistress? So if you didn't plan on taking that next step and you just wanted to live Separate lives, those searches don't really equate with that. They don't compute. Then Nicole said that she didn't even talk to Chris on the phone at all that day, on Tuesday the 14th, and she said she didn't because she was mad at him. But once again, that is not true. I feel like I should be on that show Maury right now.

That's a lie.

Or you said this, that is a lie. Because evidence proved that she actually talked to Chris several times in the early morning hours of the 14th. Including when she was suspected to have listened in on that call with Chris and the detectives. So clearly they weren't in this bad place as she was saying, and she was trying to tell the detective she was mad at him. No, no, no, no, they were talking, and they were talking multiple times a day, most likely trying to compare their stories and match points. That's just what I think. But then all the way up until it's suspected that she was in fact listening in on that call with detectives.

He's aware of the fact that I'm probably about to walk away from him, so I think that was like his way of like saying goodbye. So it didn't really seem strange in the context of what was going on between like the him and I part of stuff. And then, um, and I kept asking him too, like, what did you do, Chris? What did you do? And he was like, I didn't do anything. And I'm like, where's your family? And like, I asked him that. I don't know if I started doing that on Tuesday or if I started doing that on Monday, but I definitely— I think it was Tuesday. Because I don't really think I was that alarmed on Monday. And then, um, uh, so that was supposed to be like our final sign-off text.

Next, she told the detectives that she contacted the police to tell them about the affair because of how weird she was feeling about Chris's behavior through all of this. She wanted to be the one to come forward, say they were having an affair, almost like she felt like, you know, Chris's behavior is being so weird, so I wanted to come to you. I wanted to tell you about the affair, kind of like Amber Frey did with the Scott Peterson Peterson case. She felt like she wanted to be helpful. However, this isn't true either because the fact was that the police already knew about the affair. They had actually already been informed about this affair through a supervisor at Nicole's workplace, Anadarko. In the discovery, it says that on the 15th of August, before this interview took place, at 8 AM, CBI Agent Tammy Lee received a phone call from an Anadarko regional manager. This manager informed her that they have uncovered evidence that Chris began a relationship with a coworker around June 28th. 2 hours after that call was made at 9:50 AM, Nicole then contacted detectives regarding her relationship with Chris Watts. Then it says Nicole was tipped off that the Anadarko manager had discovered the emails revealing her affair with Chris, which is why she took the initiative to contact the police because she knew that it was going to be exposed.

She didn't do this to be forthcoming like she would later suggest to the police and share the information to help the case. And that same day that her affair was known by police, she searched for the phrase, can cops trace text messages? Also, how long do phone companies keep text messages? What's the difference between text message content and text message detail? And then she deleted those searches.

I'm just gonna say it, guys.

I'm just gonna say it. I know public image is everything sometimes. If you've got nothing to hide and if you're trying to be forthcoming about information about an affair to help the case and help figure out what happened to Shanann and her babies, why are you hindering the investigation on the other side of the coin by deleting your text message history? And by searching, can cops trace text messages? Can cops— do phone companies keep text messages? If you've got nothing to hide and if you truly are trying to help, why are you hiding stuff? And even more than that, why would you delete that search and the text messages that you're so worried about them tracing?

Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Doesn't sit right with me. It's not landed for me. Police then asked Nicole about the phone call that was 111 minutes long the night before, technically the night of the murders. It took place right before midnight and then Shanann got home at 2 a.m. So they talked for approximately 111 minutes.

And then you talked to him for, um, a few hours on Sunday.

Did I? Are you asking me or are you telling me? I'm asking you. Oh, I was like, I don't even know. Sunday, honestly. Oh, on— so wait a minute, that was Saturday. This is the— we're talking about Saturday, we're not talking about Sunday right now.

Okay, so you're still on Saturday?

Yes.

You guys have a phone conversation when he gets Nicole said that they were FaceTiming but that she couldn't remember anything that they talked about, which I find a little bit weird because you're telling me you can't remember what you talked about with somebody in a nearly 2-hour conversation just a few days earlier?

Let's get to the phone call on Saturday from 9 to 11. What did you guys— or pardon me, on Sunday from 9 to 11?

Yeah, we talked a few times, so Sunday, I think so.

I need to think. I can't even think.

Take a couple breaths and take it— take a second.

Sunday night, I don't even know. I don't think I was like concerned about anything at that point.

You guys had had a meal the night before. You knew his wife was probably coming home late that evening.

Oh, um, Um, you know what? I still don't remember what we talked about. I like, honestly, like, we talk about so much random stuff, like, it's so hard to pinpoint some of these things. Um, I don't remember what we talked about. I do remember that was a long phone conversation though. We probably talked about all sorts of stuff.

Do you know what he did Sunday during the day?

Um, I don't even know what I did on Sunday during the day.

If it was 2 hours long, you can't remember any details of that? It was just a couple days ago and it was a big conversation. There is another, what I believe, sinister plot that happened, but I need to backtrack a little bit to explain as we get into that. So Chris eventually ended up telling law enforcement that he tried to first subdue Shanann through OxyContin, and he told the police that that's what he used to try to subdue her, but they weren't ever to establish how he obtained the OxyContin because he was never prescribed it. And he told them that wherever the OxyContin came from was a secret that he was taking to the grave, that he will never share where he got that from. Now here's what's interesting. Call logs show— again, all in the discovery— call logs show that Nicole was once on the phone with Chris, then on the phone with a clinic, then on the phone with Chris again. And when the transcripts were pulled from that clinic that she called, It showed that she was inquiring about how much OxyContin would be safe to take and how much would cause a miscarriage.

This doesn't mean that she had anything to do with the murders, but she knew that Shanann was pregnant before the newspaper and before the interviews, whereas before she said she had absolutely no idea until it was all over the news. And here's where I get back into North Carolina, because it was also suspected that while in North Carolina, after Chris joined the family there, That he might have secretly tried to give Shanann that drug to induce a miscarriage because Shanann became very, very ill one day and was complaining of severe cramps. So one theory out there is that Nicole and Chris had hoped to induce a miscarriage so that he could then divorce her easily, and when that didn't work, then the plan was escalated. And in fact, after returning to Colorado from North Carolina, On August 7th, Shanann started telling her friends that Chris has changed his mind about wanting to have a baby, and she even ended up canceling her gender reveal party. And then when Chris came back from North Carolina, he and Nicole just picked up right where they left off. And then on August 12th, they went on that infamous date to the Lazy Dog Cafe, where then everything really blew up because Shanann saw that charge from dinner on their credit card statement And she knew that that bill totaled more than what it would cost for just one single person's dinner.

And get this, in just like another weird Google search on Nicole's phone, before hitting the town to get something to eat on their date, Nicole spent 45 minutes Googling how to prepare for anal sex. Also the anal sex guide. And this was in addition to looking at videos of threesomes on certain sites and also searching double penetration. Now do you, girl. Do you all the livelong day. But I just think it's something interesting to note. She's Googling all this before their hot date to Lazy Dog. So going through the hours and hours of interviews, the 2,000 pages of discovery, Nicole makes so many contradictions and there are just so many red flags. So here are just a few of them that stood out to me. One, Nicole couldn't remember anything, anything, anything, anything in the interviews. She's constantly saying she can't remember.

So if there's like— I'm trying to help you guys with the stuff, like the stuff that's more current, I can give you guys a lot more like detail and exact times. But when you're asking me about something that happened 6 weeks ago and exactly what was said, it's like, I mean, I'm sure I can give you a general idea, but to be honest with you, like to pinpoint exact words, it's not gonna happen.

I'm not—

Sunday night, I don't even know. I don't think I was like concerned about anything at that point.

You guys had had a meal the night before. You knew his wife was probably coming home late that evening.

Oh, um, you know what, I still don't remember what we talked about. I like honestly, like, we talked about so much random stuff, like it's so hard to pinpoint some of these things. What did I do on Sunday? I am like drawing a blank. I'm really tired. I don't know. Can I get back to you on that?

Did you guys have any conversations on Saturday night during your meal what he might be doing on Sunday?

I'm sure we did.

I don't know why I'm drawing a blank because I haven't slept.

If I—

Yet in her written statement, it is extremely detailed about events that she said that she couldn't remember a month earlier and she's just telling story after story after story.

I got it, I got it, I got it, I got it. By the way, I got it.

Remembered what?

In my head, what I needed to tell you. That first long phone call on Monday night was, I think, when he told me that. I don't think he told me that in the FaceTime text. I mean, in the FaceTime conversation. I think he told me that in the first conversation where he—

All right.

So that was why I brought that up, because I was like, whoa, okay.

Very important. Thanks for remembering that.

Yeah, I'm trying. I'm really trying to help you guys. I just— I need you guys to help me too. Like, yes, ma'am, this is a team. But just don't—

In her first interview, she is more concerned with keeping her name out of the papers than the actual victims involved in this case.

The only ones— papers to get that, that's all I want.

The only ones that we would be looking for Another detail, she says that she told Chris to confront Shanann.

And I told him, I said, when you're in those situations, why don't you— I'm like, do you, do you like voice your concern about this?

And one second later, she says that she didn't really interfere with their relationship.

I don't try to like interfere with how those two interact.

Another weird detail, she texted Chris to prove that he was at Servie 319 with a picture. This was because apparently she felt weird about the sheets but still never thought about murder.

He was like, their sheets smell. And I remember thinking to myself, like, why? Like, you keep such a clean house, like, why would your kids' sheets stink? And like, it just didn't really click.

And then did you confront him why they— did you confront him why the sheets smelled, or did you Did you inquire why?

No, no, no, no, I didn't even ask.

She also said that the wedding ring comment is something that made her look at Chris and kind of make her initially start freaking out, yet she's the one who made the comment about pawning it.

And so I was like, I don't know, pawn it, man. And I was just like—

And then in her written statement on September 4th, she said that Chris had never said anything negative about Shanann, yet in her interviews she goes at great lengths describing Shanann as being materialistic, All about money and being bossy.

About that. But he just— I think he was really frustrated with the situation. Um, he told me, he's like, you know, I feel like my paycheck goes in my bank account and I just watch it go like this. He's like, but it doesn't have to. He's like, she makes it like that.

And I was just like— So was he resentful for that?

I don't know if he was resentful. I just think he was frustrated by the fact that they could be doing a lot better financially and she From the vibe that I got, I had really bad spending habits.

And you mentioned today you read something about, uh, bankruptcy. What did you read?

That those guys filed bankruptcy for a lot of money.

And who are those guys?

That couple.

Okay.

In 2015. Oh, Shanann and Chris filed bankruptcy in 2015.

Okay.

Tells you he has a concern enough to at least express some— something to you that He's frustrated with the way she spends, or he's upset with working so hard and never having any money, and she's kind of the responsibility— she's the responsible party for spending most of the money?

I, I pretty much got that vibe. I mean, he just told me, he's like, we're house broke all the time. Um, uh, like the only— like I said, the only financial thing he ever said is just like, she just likes to spend money, like a lot of it. So that was just kind of the vibe that I got from that and that it was just, it was a lifestyle that she liked to live, like very like materialistic kind of lifestyle.

Wanted to project a certain image.

Yes, all the time. And he said that that was why they got that house too. It's like she wants everybody to think that we live a certain way and that we can like sustain all this stuff. And he's like, and we can't. And he told me, he's like, when I try to talk to her, He's like, she's really bossy and she usually shuts me out. And he's like, when she does that, he's like, I just let it go.

And also the extent of the marriage issues that Chris had shared with her. And Nicole even said, I wouldn't put up with that.

I did ask about it because I'm just curious, because I would never put myself in a situation where someone was like, you know what, we're gonna live in this house that costs like double what we can afford and that's how it's gonna be because I want everybody to think we're fancy. Because I wouldn't do that. I mean, to me, like, I wouldn't put up with somebody doing that to me.

So why would Nicole be panicked? Why would she be Googling if cops were going to trace her phone, if she could delete her phone history, all of those things? A lot of the people feel that the detectives on this case really handled her with kid gloves all in all and just provided excuses as to why they weren't going to look further into her. And honestly, I completely agree. So now we have to talk about that footage and people suspecting that Nicole was in fact there the night of the murders and actually helped Chris. Although I want to be clear, it is just speculation. So many people have been talking about this theory for years, and as people analyze the footage from the neighbor's camera, many people strongly believe that Nicole can in fact be seen in this footage. A lot of people think that you can see a woman with breasts with long hair, and another photo that shows a purse on the back of this person.

I didn't want to do another Chris Watts video, but I felt that this was really important. I saw this in a Facebook group and it comes from the surveillance of the neighbor's house that morning. If you look at the picture on the right, you can see that that person seems to have breasts. Also, they seem to have long hair. Here is another photo. It's not very clear, but here is an outline of that photo. It shows a purse on the back of that person.

So if this is true, it would align with Nicole's phone pinging near the Watts home that morning. She's helping with the cleanup. She's helping him load the truck. She's helping do all of these things. It would also explain why she never clocked into work that morning and why she didn't have an alibi for that morning. And then she didn't use her phone for hours and hours and hours on end until she got to work at 2 or 3 PM, made those calls to her spiritual advisor, and then dipped out of work almost as quickly as she arrived and went over to her friend Jim's house. So on August 19th, the day after this big police interview with all of this footage that we've been talking about, Nicole starts to Google all about Amber Frey, or Amber Frey, I forget how you pronounce it, but she was the mistress of Scott Peterson, who was also convicted of killing his wife and unborn child. So Nicole was Googling if people hate Amber, also how much money Amber made from the book deal that she got, among a lot of other things. The YouTube channel Plunder received a copyright strike from DA Michael Rourke's wife's podcast.

This was for playing a clip of him in the podcast saying that people need to just get over this case and that Nicole was not Now I'm paraphrasing here and I'll explain why in a second, but it was interesting because he was trying to say in a way of, I know so much about this case, everybody else is stupid, yet he described both Bella and CeCe as having long blonde hair. Now personally, I really like Plunder's channel. I think everything that she does is great and I've never seen her use something not in accordance of fair use, and I feel like this copyright strike was definitely not fair. She always puts links, she puts credits, and she's very careful, so I guess we can only speculate as to why his wife struck the video. It's completely gone now, and so is the original podcast video. So while I wish I could tell you more about what was said while speaking about Nicole on this case and all of the details, it seems like that episode has been just absolutely, completely scrubbed from the internet. Nicole has never been charged or formally named even as a person of interest, although so many people in the public arena firmly believe that she was involved in this to some degree, especially based on everything that we have learned so far in this case.

And I want to know, what is your opinion? I mean, there are so many conspiracy theories out there, but I'm really curious to know what your thoughts are, because I still firmly, firmly believe that at the very least she knew that something was going to happen, or that this was the plan. Because if she didn't, why else would she listen in on that phone call between him and the detective unless she was trying to assess what the detective knew and what he was saying? Were they both being implicated? Why did Chris shut down, not give any other information, not share where he got the OxyContin from because he didn't want to implicate anybody else? It doesn't make sense. Also, why would her phone ping there that morning? Why would she delete her history? Why would she lie about things? Why would she say she didn't even know Shanann's name when she really did and was Googling her a year prior? It just doesn't make sense. Yet all of those inconsistencies, even the ones that are outlined as evidence in the discovery, are strictly circumstantial. And there is enough for reasonable doubt there, which is my belief as to why she has not been formally charged.

Although others speculate it's because her dad apparently runs very deep and has a lot of influence, and that could be why. Again, another possible conspiracy theory, possibly true. Who the heck really even knows? There's obviously so much speculation any corner you look to on the internet on this case, all about Nicole, about her involvement. And there is one more thing I wanted to bring up, but I do want to be clear, I have No way in verifying this comment. Not at all. Not whatsoever. And this is from Reddit, so please take it with a major grain of salt. But there's a screenshot of a person leaving a comment on a video about this case, and to me the comment seemed very detailed to where it gave it a little tiny bit of credibility, or the opportunity to ask the question if it's credible. But I know people lie on the internet for way less. But let me read this comment to you.

It says, my wife and I were close family friends with her parents.

Our children grew up with theirs. Nicole was always a problem child and especially so when she was a teen. I just want to say that she stabbed me in the back with a kitchen knife and was arrested and charged with a felony. However, the judge deferred her felony conviction if she could stay out of trouble. This incident divided both families and we have not spoken since that last court appearance. This happened in 2004 or 2005. I can't remember exactly what year. It was in Aurora, Colorado. Anyway, she is entirely capable of being involved in the murders. She's a narcissist and violent. So again, take that how you will. I just did want to bring it up.

And as we're talking about so many different things, so it's been a while since I last covered this case and did any updates. But there is one thing that remains the same. Nicole has still never faced any kind of legal backlash, and she has never officially been tied to the murders. Not when they first happened, not when the Netflix documentary came out and made this case a super viral, crazy case, and still not now. Now, I think it's pretty safe to assume that it likely will never happen. Either way though, Nicole has gone into hiding. For years now, she has been under the radar, fully in hiding. Some people assumed witness protection. Some people assume because of her father's ties and everything, but whether that is because she knows more than she's letting on and she's trying to live out the rest of her life without being caught, or if it's because she knows that she has received so much backlash and would continue to receive backlash like it is when Casey Anthony's in public, I don't know what the reason is for why she's in hiding. We may never know the true reason, but she has retreated for the last However, even though she's gone completely off the grid, some people have still managed to track her down, and the theories surrounding her involvement, they are just as intense now as they were from day one.

Let's start with what I've been able to find out about where she's at now. We obviously know that in the months after the murders, Nicole did a few different interviews with the detectives. In November of 2018, Nicole also spoke to the Denver Post. Giving her first ever official interview with the press. In that interview, Nicole told her side of the story, one that was pretty similar to the one that she told the detectives, yet she gave a bit more details in certain parts, like how she told the reporter that when she first met Chris at their job, he wasn't wearing a wedding ring, and how when she met him, she immediately thought that he was attractive. And one thing that I found interesting about this interview specifically was towards the end of it when the article was describing the day that Shanann and the girls went missing and how Nicole was allegedly bombarding Chris with all of these questions, trying to get more details on how they went missing. The article reads, quote, In a flurry of long calls and texts that night, Watts changed his story about his split with his wife. Kessinger barraged Watts with questions.

Were there signs that someone had forced themselves into the home? Were the daughters' car seats still there? Was one of the girls' EpiPens still in the house? And look, maybe some of those are normal questions that his mistress would ask, potentially. And maybe I'm reaching here, you tell me what you think. But for some reason, the comment about the EpiPen was really odd to me because it doesn't sound like that's something that Nicole should or would have even really known about, especially as someone who claims that she had never met the girls and that she was just Casually seeing Chris and that she wasn't even that invested in the relationship and that she was someone who had only been over to the house a couple of times. That is a pretty intimate detail to know about these girls. And again, not a huge red flag, but definitely something that struck me as kind of odd. To me, this interview felt more like Nicole was trying to clear her name, especially because she mentioned that the online speculation at the time was essentially ruining her life. However, instead of working in her favor, the interview kind of backfired on her.

And I would say that as time went on and more information came out about the case, people's opinion of Nicole only worsened. And I mean, I know that mine did. According to the Daily Mail, there were reports that by late 2018, Nicole had already moved out of Colorado, started a different job, was even placed in a witness protection program. And that same report claimed that she even had plans to change her name and her entire identity. Which, that shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone. Even during one of her early interviews with the detectives, she acknowledged that by being Chris Watts' mistress, it was not going to make her look good. She knew it. Everybody knew it. She had said to the detective, quote, my name is about to be like slandered for probably a while. I don't know how long it's going to take to heal, but I would not be surprised if it's going to be hard to go out in public sometimes for a couple of years. And that really hurts me. I'm just like, this is a horrible, horrible thing. Like, how dare you?

You know?

And people aren't gonna understand it. You know, they're gonna say, oh, you know, you're the woman that had an affair with this man who took out his whole family. So she said this in one of her interviews with the detectives. So she definitely did know the reality of her situation. And on October 1st, 2020, Nicole did start the process of leaving that identity behind. She applied in Jefferson County, Colorado for an official name change. But then after that update, things were pretty quiet for years. Nobody had really seen or heard from Nicole, and as far as everyone knew, that wasn't even her legal name anymore. Really, that was the last time there was any sort of anything that was official on Nicole, putting, you know, a lot of emphasis on official, because that still wasn't the last time that the internet went into a total spiral about Nicole. For a while, there was a pretty big rumor going around too. A rumor that she had a baby and that Chris was the father, and that that's why she removed herself from the public eye and went under the radar and created a new identity because she didn't want anybody to know that she had had Chris Watts's child, which I know it sounds crazy.

It really does. I don't even know that I necessarily believed that even for like a nanosecond. However, as the internet so often does, people went down a rabbit hole on this. Defending why they believe that it was absolute truth. There were all these different videos online saying that Nicole had been Googling different things like when to take the morning after pill, looking into her IUD, when it would stop being effective, things like that. But here's the thing. I have gone through personally firsthand more than once the 2,000 pages of discovery. That's where all of Nicole's shady Google searches were listed. That's where everything was, and I never saw anything like that. So whether that happened, I don't know, immediately the day of or the day before, possibly. And maybe that wasn't within the discovery, although I still would imagine that it had been a part of it. I, I don't know where these rumors started. I'm not sure. Regardless though, that's what everybody's saying online. However, that wasn't even the biggest piece of quote unquote evidence that the online sleuths had for why they believed Nicole had had Chris's baby.

Mm-hmm.

The YouTube channel called Slim Hoffa had posted a video in November of 2020 titled Allegedly Nicole Kessinger's Cousin Speaking. And this video was exactly what it sounded like. A woman had come forward claiming to be Nicole's cousin, saying that she had inside information, which— take a listen for yourself.

Okay, hi, I am Nicole's cousin. You're all saying I'm Nicole.

I'm not.

This all started because Christopher Watts chose to kill his family. He did not kill his family for Nicole. He has even written us letters. He killed his family and he doesn't know why. He still talks shit about his wife that he killed. He has written so many letters, you know, saying that he killed it, you know, he doesn't know why. He wishes he could take it back, not so his wife would be alive, but so he He could be with Nikki. Okay, we have had to change our name, we've moved to Alaska, and it's— the harassment still continues. Nicole can't even get a job. She had a great job before Christopher Watts decided to kill his family. Christopher Watts killed his family on his own. Christopher Watts is the one Who killed his wife, killed his kids, took the bodies up to Anadarko and fucking left them at the work site. Okay, do you really think if anyone was gonna help Christopher Watts, they would tell him to take his family to the job site? I don't fucking think so. He did it. He says he did it. He even says he doesn't know why he did it.

Okay, that's what he says. Don't you think he should man up and tell the truth about why he killed his family instead of just saying, Nikki, I love you and I'm sorry? Fuck that shit. Then he started shit with his wife's picture on Christmas Day of last year. You know, he's got his family's pictures He's able to get on CoraLinks and send pictures. He took a picture of a picture, sent this picture of his wife on Christmas Day starting shit, saying, oh, I'm alone, you know, I'm, I'm more sad about the holidays, I'm alone, like all this I killed my family bullshit. Well, you're alone, Christopher Watts, because you killed your fucking family.

Fuck you.

We didn't tell you to kill your fucking family. You shouldn't have killed your fucking family. You will never see the baby whether you're in prison or not. We don't want you free, Christopher Watts, because we do know you're a fucking psychotic killer, possibly serial killer. You were already stepping outside your marriage. You tell police you wouldn't have done that if it wouldn't have been for Nicole. But you already were stepping outside your marriage with your wife, and you talked shit about your wife saying she was laying down with every other man while you were at work. You talk shit about your wife every chance you get.

Now, it was so quick that you might not have even caught it, but this woman, whoever she is, says, quote, you will never see the baby. So people, of course, took that and they ran with that. Some people even thought that this woman speaking was Nicole herself, that it was not her cousin, and that she made her voice sound different on purpose. However, some other people believe that it's all just a hoax and it's a person who wanted attention, which I would imagine is probably the more likely scenario. And I do have to say, none of that information has ever been verified. Not that Nicole moved to Alaska, not that she had a baby, let alone Chris's. None of it. I don't know that there's much validity to it, and my personal opinion is that she probably didn't have his child. But then again, why go off the radar for so many years? Why stay off the radar? Why not speak your truth like Amber Frey did if you have nothing to hide?

I don't know.

Form your own opinion with that. However, people took this conspiracy pretty far, saying that it actually was the root cause and the reason why Chris killed his family. It's because He knew that Nicole was pregnant. He wanted to have a life with her. He wanted to have the perfect family, and he only wanted a family with her. Some people took it even farther, saying he knew that she was pregnant and having a boy, and that he didn't want Shanann to have his son, which— that is some really dark shit. And I mean, I'm pretty down for talking about Nicole's lies and her inconsistencies when it comes to the murders and her potential knowledge or involvement in them, but this stuff is just crazy. I mean, I don't know. I don't think I can get behind it. There's also only been one time since 2018 when Nicole was possibly seen, and this sighting is not verified, although it did go very, very viral when it happened. I did talk about it when it first happened too, back in 2025, but there was a live stream of a funeral service that was happening, and some people who were watching this live stream or saw it after the fact noticed that this woman walking away from the casket looked very similar to Nicole.

And from there, as the internet does, the internet did its thing. The funeral was in Billings, Montana, and when I first covered the rumor, I said, you know, I had to admit the person did look a lot like they could be Nicole. There was a little bit of a weight gain, a little bit of a change in facial features, but that could be attributed to age and getting older. Maturing, gaining weight, as women do sometimes when they age. But I definitely did see the resemblance. And even though the sighting wasn't actually confirmed, people were saying that the funeral was for a friend of Nicole's mother, which again, where the internet got this from, I don't entirely know. It's never been confirmed that it was even Nicole who was in this footage, let alone whose funeral it was for. So TBD on that. But I also find that kind of interesting in all of this. After 8 years, nobody has come forward with some sort of accurate, verifiable inside knowledge on Nicole. Not a friend, not a family member, not an acquaintance, nothing. That leads me to believe they are either blindly loyal to her for some reason or another, or that she really has been a recluse and hasn't been out in public or making acquaintances with anybody at all.

I don't know. What do you guys think? If you're watching the YouTube video version of this and you see that video I just put up on the screen, was this Nicole under whatever new alias she's going by now? Or does she possibly just have a doppelganger in Montana? Since then, there's really been no new sightings about Nicole aside from the rumors and the alleged sighting. Nicole has pretty much dropped off the face of the earth ever since the murders. Chris said years ago that he believed that Nicole was writing to him in prison under a different name. But who knows, maybe he's just as delusional as the conspiracy theorists, or maybe she really was because she wasn't willing to let go. Who knows? But not to mention, since all of that had happened, as I mentioned in part 1, he has completely flipped a switch on her, calling her the Jezebel who was responsible for everything bad in his life. The one thing though that still gets me every time is Chris's refusal to admit where he got the pills from. He said that that was a secret that he would take to the grave.

And even though he is unfortunately still very much alive, he has kept his word on that. But if Nicole gave him those pills, wouldn't he have told someone by now? Or wouldn't that person who she got the pills from have come forward? I don't know, as maybe a bombshell prison confession or in one of the many letters that he's written to his so-called fans, especially now that he's getting remarried and seems to be moving on. I mean, why protect Nicole? Why not just say that it was her if it was? Or is there something more to it? Something that maybe I'm missing and never fully understood? Which, if so, please drop that feedback in those comments, in the Q&A section on Spotify, or in the comment section on YouTube. I would love to know your thoughts on that. So that's where we're wrapping up today with Nicole. Again, listen to part 1 if you have not listened already, even if you've already listened all the way to part 2. because there is so much more backstory and lore and context that you need to know about their relationship and their dynamic. And we also talk a lot about the murders themselves.

So go take a listen, check it out. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's 2-part episode. I hope you appreciated the coverage. Curious to know your thoughts.

Sound off in the comments below.

I will be back with you on Thursday with an all-new episode of Headline Highlights. where we are talking about everything happening this week in the true crime world. Until then, be nice and don't kill people.

And just get a freaking divorce, okay?

All right, bye.