Transcript of Do Not Have Needs. Ever. | #101

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. Grr. Jesus. That's a bear. It's not. Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by Betterhelp. They want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's the show. If you listen to us, we're pro-therapy. You use Betterhelp recently, yes?

I have. I just signed up.

How did it go?

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch... There's like two or three pages of people that I got to choose from. And yeah, I just started a few sessions ago.

Nice. Have you used their journal feature?

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal. Who doesn't love a digital journal?

Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know, you went to better helped because you were in between insurance.

Yeah.

So if you're listening to this, and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance, it's a good resource to start therapy. If you listen to this show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, better help is a good option. They were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you're listening and you want to start with better help, go to betterhelp. Com/secondhandtherapy, and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Get in therapy, you know?

It's great. Check it out.

Wake up, bitch. It's time to podcast.

It's time to podcast, baby.

I don't even know if they're going to heard your yawn.

Probably not.

Welcome back to second-hand therapy, my little bear cubs.

You're here, we're here. Let's do it.

We need to remind you that we are not therapists. That's right. We are not experts. No. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way.

God, no. What?

I just had a quest bar. I'm a little flemmy.

Sorry. Keep it to yourself.

I'm trying, but I might be clearing my throat throughout this episode, as I do every other episode, I'm starting to notice.

I got something to clear your throat.

Yeah, is it a A memory of your mother?

I'm just going to say some water. Oh, thanks.

I don't know. I thought we were talking shit. Sorry about that.

You're going to hear some ads.

You're going to hear some ads. And if you want to bring his mother back to life, go to Patreon.

Please, I need it. It's...

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We got to hang We got Google Hangs, doc.

Google Hangs. We be chit-chatting.

We be chatting.

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Was I done talking about merch? No. Let's talk about mail. Let's talk about a thing that makes us no money. Please, mail. I have to spend gas to go check the PO box.

I like getting mail.

Good for you. When's the last time you check the PO box?

I'm not allowed to check the PO box.

You have a key to it.

I do.

Are you being serious? Not rhetorical.

It's hoodie season, everybody. There's new hoodies up. You can get merch. If you're a member of Patreon, you get merch discounts. We're working on tie-dye hoodies. Oh, and there's a new Vasectomy Farms shirt. It's black. It's cool. Head on over there.

You better play the fucking music because I am upset.

Episode 101. Enjoy.

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back to secondhand therapy.

And you know that.

And then my therapist said, You don't strike me me as a guy that just thinks he can do whatever he wants with people. That was refreshing to hear. Really? Yeah. What? You disagree?

I think she's wrong. Yeah? Go on.

So you think between you and I, do you think I bully you? If you're like, Hey, I don't want to go swimming. I'm like, Get in that fucking pool.

No, but I think that you get your way a lot. So I don't know if it's... I don't consider bullying, but I think that, yeah, you get what you want. Because... Can I give an example?

As long as it doesn't have to do with our business, sure.

No. Yeah, because if it's one of those things, you're like, I brought you this hoodie with a lobster on it.

And I was like, Yeah, we're not selling that. Okay, go ahead.

No, but you'll try to, not even with me, but with other people, you'll try to talk people out of their own decision. You'll just ask questions until you get them to where you're at, and then we're where you want to be.

Interesting. Yeah. And what's the benefit to me in that?

You get what you want.

Which is for you to make a different decision.

No, sometimes. I'm talking about me making a decision. I'm talking about... Well, sometimes, yeah. But also, yeah, if you want to do whatever it is, whatever you're trying to gain or whatever, you're going to get it. Interesting. Most times.

Lucky me.

Yeah.

Nice. Anyway, so what happened was- You don't feel that way? I don't know. I never thought about it.

Yeah?

Yeah. My mind went to, when you and I have things, you get excited about things so quickly, and I have to be like, Okay, well, look at it like this. It doesn't make sense. Sure. And I'm able to get there quicker than you. That's where my mind went. I also don't... I don't know, and this could be something I should think about. I don't find that I have that many desires of what I want to get or what I want to happen.

Yeah, it's not what you want to do, it's what you don't want to do. That's what you spend.

So if I don't want to do something, I find a way to get everybody on board with me not wanting to do it.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, you'll talk it out of them to either do the thing you want to do or not do it at all, or to let you off the hook from doing it.

Oh, I don't need to be let off the hook.

I know most times you're just like, No, I don't want to go, or whatever. But I think sometimes, yeah.

Do you have an example?

No, I have a terrible memory.

I was like, I don't understand what you're saying, I don't think. So if you were like, Hey, let's go do this, and I was like, Yeah, I don't want to go. I don't then think I would feel the need to have you not go, too.

If I was like, Hey, let's go get a burger. I'd be like, Hey, I really want to go to The Habit. And you'd be like, I'll get a burger with you. And I go, Okay. And you go, When's the last time you went to The Habit? I don't know, two days ago. Been going there a lot, haven't you? Yeah, I guess I'm there maybe once a week or whatever the fuck. Why don't we go to Herbs? Well, I don't know. I don't really like Herbs. Come on, let's go to Herbs. And then it's like, When's the last time you went to Herbs? And then it's, Question me on this or that, going down that path. And eventually it's just, We're in the car, we're going to Herb's.

Interesting.

And so I know that's a surface level example or whatever, but yeah, apply that to whatever.

Yeah, Interesting, because what I heard is, I want to go to my comfort place, and then my friend is like, Why don't we try something else? And you're like, Why? I'm scared. Why don't we do that?

Sometimes sure. But it is, again, very surface level, maybe bad example or whatever, but I was just using just a whatever. But yeah, it's... Yeah, oftentimes it's talking them into the thing that... Or getting out of the thing that you don't want to do or go to. So the questions are-Yeah, I don't ever feel like I have to...

If I don't want to go to something, I'll be like, No, thanks. Have a good time. I don't think I've ever felt the need to convince somebody else not to also go. So it's interesting.

Yeah.

Well, here's what happened. My girl and I were in the kitchen, and smacked her on the butt. And she said, Kind of hard. And I said, Yeah. And then the dumb ass in me thought, It's I should pinch her on the butt now.

Oh, my God.

So I pinched her on the butt.

Okay.

And she did not appreciate that playfulness, and she had an emotional reaction. So And what I came around to is that, one, things that are playful to me are different, one, for everybody, but in this situation, my partner. So, yeah, for me, I'm just being playful or whatever, playing grab ass in the kitchen. Okay. But my girlfriend has had A much different life experience than me. And what happened with her was somebody did something to her body that she didn't like. And even though she knows, logically, she's in a safe space with a safe person, her nervous system doesn't know that. So her body reacts in a way that she is in danger and something's happening. And so what I pose to my therapist was, I smacked her on the butt. She didn't like it. Why the fuck would I pinch her? I was like, Do I have this subconscious thing of like, Oh, I can do whatever I want? No. And as my therapist was like, Yeah, you don't strike me as that. And I was like, Yeah, I don't think so either. But am I just a fucking idiot?

No.

Why would I pinch her butt after I smacked her? And she was like, Oh, that hurt. And I was like, I'm doing it again. Am I a fucking idiot? Yes, I am. But why? Again, for me, it's just playful.

Yeah, I think that's innocent playfulness. And I think we just fall into that sometimes with our partners, where we think we take it too far, or they take it too far, or whatever. Yeah, I think you can chalk that up to just like, I went too far on that one.

Yeah.

And just be a better listener next time. I mean, that's all you really can do. That's what I've done in past relationships, because I've taken jokes too far or something like that. Oh, yeah. That's my specialty. Yeah. Hey, man, there are limits. Then you just file it back and go, okay, yeah, when she says this, she means that it's over. Play time's over.

Yeah. I did think of you in therapy when I was having this conversation.

About the time you smacked my butt.

What butt? The time I smacked the back of your thigh that's next to your shoulder blades? Long ass back. Get out of here.

You got long back. Yeah, fucking- Long back Malone.

How do you have two backs of the knees? Right below the way. She got another set of those concave knees. All right, anyway.

Yeah.

I thought of you in therapy in this conversation because when she had a big reaction, as she should have, Well, I'm not going to say as she should have. That I understand. That makes perfect sense to me why she had a big reaction.

Yeah.

I felt like a little kid in trouble.

I did. Really?

I did. Felt like a little boy in trouble.

Oh, no.

Felt a lot of shame. Felt like... Yeah. Oh, wow. Didn't like it. Not an enjoyable feeling.

Yeah. How often do you feel like that?

Not a lot. Yeah. Not a lot. But I did in that moment, and it was interesting because I don't... That's not a usual reaction for me.

And what did it... How did it How do I want to word this? How did you get out of that feeling?

I didn't. What do you mean? When did it subside?

Yeah. What did it take to get out of that? Knowing that, Hey, I'm not in trouble.

Oh, I just felt that way, but I knew I was. We talked about it.

Yeah.

She had a big reaction, and then I was, I mean, I assumed defensive. I can't imagine I handled it great off the bat. You know?

Yeah.

And then I actually... Dude, my girl and I handle this so well. Yeah. My therapist, he's been like, This is incredible. I was like, Telling me I got a podcast. Yeah. Yeah, she was heightened. Then as soon as I felt myself getting heightened, I was like, Hey, I think we should walk away from this until we can both be accountable for what just happened. And She was like, Okay, fine. And she went out back. I went to my desk, did a little work. She came in. She's like, Hey, can you come out here so we can talk? Yep. We talked calmly. I was like, Yeah, I shouldn't have done that. I was like, I shouldn't have. But also, you don't get to talk to me the way you did just because you're in an emotional place. I understand you had a big reaction. I understand why. We don't talk to each other like that. And she was accountable. She's like, Yeah. She's like, I don't want to be the partner that speaks to my partner that way. She's like, And I'm sorry for that. So we were both accountable for what happened. I understand that without my actions, none of it would have happened.

But also, we were both guilty for being in the wrong. No yelling, no screaming.

Yeah.

Very Pretty proud of us, to be honest.

How hard was that to put you both in time out in that moment?

Yeah, not ideal. I like to hammer that shit out right now. Yeah. But I've learned that sometimes we need to take a little space and cool off because everybody's heightened right now. How is that going to be productive?

Yeah, there's no resolution.

Yeah.

But...

Yeah, I was unpacking it. That Questbar, I'm telling you. I was unpacking it a little bit more in therapy because, like I said, I understand why my girl had her nervous system, had a big reaction.

Yeah.

And my therapist put it to me in a way that I had never thought about before. I've never in my life I felt like I could be or was going to be overpowered by somebody else. I've never felt unsafe in a way that someone is going to can physically take me and do something to me against my will.

Not even when you were little? Like with father figure or parent?

Oh, he's going to hit me over the phone? What the fuck are you talking about? No.

Yeah. No. Really?

I remember being a afraid of my mom when she was angry, but never like, she's going to hold me down or something. So the physically overpowering is a fear I've never even thought about. If you and I get into it, I'm sorry, I'm not worried about it.

You should be. Well, I'm not. I'll climb you like a spider monkey, dog.

But you know what I mean? It's not a thing. So It's just one of those things. As a man, I'm never going to know what it's like to be around a person that you know could hold you down and do whatever they wanted to you. And your body always knows that because women exist in that place. And I never thought about it like that. And I felt sad. I feel sad right now thinking about it.

Yeah. It makes me think, too, about... Because we talked last night with somebody about women safety and things like that. But not only when they're out in the world, but even online, it has to be such a shit show emotionally with dudes in comments. You can't... You don't even feel safe in the world, but you don't even feel safe when you're at home scrolling. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, dudes are the worst. What?

It's just funny to hear that from the king of DM's. Oh, yeah.

I'm in there bullying women.

I know.

That's what I'm doing.

Is that what you just heard? Yeah. Jesus.

Then what was the intent behind it?

The irony that you are well on this podcast and people know that you enjoy a flirting in DM's. Yes. And you're talking about the experience of women online. It's just the irony of it. That was the intent.

I thought you were coming after me.

I thought you- Hey, what the fuck else is new, man?

God, you're coming after me.

Jesus. Yeah, because I'm in there bullying women. Shut the fuck up.

I was like, What are you even talking about?

Well, now that I've explained it to you, how do you feel now?

You bitch. Still confused a little. About what? Are we talking about the DMs I get where people tell me to kill myself?

No, your dad is dead. He's not writing you.

He never wrote me.

That's true. Your dad seems like he had four or five pagers, though.

Buddy. He was dead before Pagers came out.

Really?

Yeah.

I feel like he would have been a pager guy.

Oh, he for sure would have been a pager dude. He never would have called you back. You could definitely page the dude.

You could page that mother.

Yeah, he tried to... When we were just now talking about father figures and abuse in a way. My dad only tried to beat me once.

Yeah, you told that story in here.

Yeah, it was crazy. I still get a little... I can just remember getting halfway up those stairs and that fucking... He got me, dude, and he grabbed my fucking ankle.

Yeah. What'd you do? You remember what he was upset about?

I don't even know, dude. How's it count? 11? 10? 10 and a half?

Well, I got good news and bad news, and they're both the same. He's going to die next year.

One of the last things I said when I was running up the stairs. I hope you fucking die. No, I didn't do that. Yeah. You thought it. Took it too far.

Did we? I don't know. She's not even here. Yeah, so I've been bullying my girlfriend That's what I'm saying. Just beating that bitch up. Pinch by Pinch. Pinch by Pinch. Pinch by pinch, day by day. What is that? Full House?

No.

Oh, step Step by step. Is that the show, Step by Step?

I would assume.

Day by day by day. Did I make that up?

I think so. I was like, I don't think I've never heard this song that you're singing right now.

Step by step. We got to get off that. We got to, yeah. We got to get off that. We got to stop. Okay, what's going on with you? You bullying my girlfriend?

No.

Be a good fucking friend, would you? Don't touch her body.

I'm not.

But abuse her with words.

I'm abusing her in the DMs. You know how I roll.

I do know how you roll. I'm so sorry, guys.

I wrote some things down.

They're all like, he follows me, and I'm like, I fucking know it.

I'm fried.

He's the only one in my podcast. He's like, Follow me back. All right, what did you write down?

I'm not following you. Who's your username? That fat ass. No, wrong.

Incorrect.

We need to get serious. This is a serious show. Well, yeah.

Sometimes. It could be once or twice.

It should be.

Step by step.

Step by step. Hey, we need a new theme song.

Day by day.

Step by step, day by day. You heard it. Somebody put it together. Send it to us. We need We don't.

Don't ever send me that.

We need it.

Do not send that.

Send it immediately.

Unless you send it to the PO box.

On a CD?

On a CD with a picture of that fat ass.

No, no, no, no, no. No. No. No. Dm that to me.

No, no, no, no.

Can I talk about emotions now?

It's nice when you get a poll right in the PO box, though, right? My girlfriend doesn't like it, but she understands. She She's like, I get it. You guys have fans. She's like, But why?

You need to write a book, and it's called...

My grandma doesn't like it, but she understands? Yeah. Yeah.

That's your book that needs to come out.

Now, if we ever cancel the podcast and then we got a Polaroid, unhinged. But because we are known people and we have a lot of female fans, she's like, Yeah, I get it. She's like, You don't get to keep it. I'm like, I know. So send us some Polaroids.

No. No.

I like getting Polaroids of puppies, too. If you have a pet donkey or a pet cow-Oh, my God.

This guy's on a donkey, kid.

Send some fucking pictures of your donkeys and cows. That does not mean titties and asses.

That does sound like you're talking about-Send us pictures of your donkeys and cows. Buddy, that sounds like it, doesn't it?

Send us a picture of your donkeys and cows or your bunnies.

Them fat ass donkeys. I love donkeys. Send me. Oh, buddy, I'm a donkey lover.

Okay, that's enough. Read out of your stupid little book. Can I get my emotions now? This is unreal, dude.

All this is getting cut. No.

That was so fun.

I was in Coda today.

Thank fucking God.

Shut the fuck up, dude.

I'm sorry. I'm going to go to Coda.

That's you.

They're going to tell me I'm broken. Yeah, that's right. All right, you went to Coda.

It's called healing.

Okay. You went to Coda.

I went to Coda.

Codependence Anonymous.

I'm not supposed to even talk about this.

I don't think that's what the Anonymous part means, but go ahead. Sure. Is that what it means you're not supposed to talk about what you learned there?

No, it's an identity thing. Yeah.

That guy, Gary, you were telling me about is crazy.

Stop it. There's no Gary.

What was his name?

I don't know. Mathieu.

Paul, Peter. They're Anonymous.

Anonymous. Noah. You'll never Noah.

Nice. Thank you. That's all the biblical names I know.

Today's topic is low self-esteem.

You were running the meeting today.

I was the mascot, baby. We do this thing in Coda where there's a topic, and then we break down there are codependent behaviors, and then there's in-recovery behaviors.

Is there a leader of the meeting? Yes. Same person every time?

Yeah.

King Coda.

King Coda.

It's like King Kunta, but I made it King Coda.

Yeah. And buddy, this one fucked me up today.

Every week, you get fucked up in these meetings.

Every week, I'm getting fucked up. Dude, last week?

Oh, yeah. Turn the page back.

Buddy.

Yeah, what did you got there?

Let me... What's it say? This is also my journal. Oh. I need to get it out of the shot.

Is that a drawing of a fat ass?

It's a donkey.

Oh, nice.

Buddy, last week, we're talking about relationships. Oh, man. Somebody shared I worked so hard on protecting the relationship that I didn't give love.

Oh, shit.

Buddy.

Yeah.

You've talked about I have been in that situation so many times, not even in relationships, but friendships and career and everything. You're working so hard to protect what you think is this fragile... I mean, you and I talk about this all the time, about not making waves, not upsetting people, people-pleasing, all that stuff is just protecting the relationship instead of just giving the love, whatever degree of love that is or attention or whatever it needs to be. I feel like you were going to say something there.

No. Yeah, it sounds like you hold on so tight that you forget to actually be a part of it.

Yeah. And that's on abandonment.

It's on codependence.

Also that. Trying to fix others is a need for control.

Trying to fix others is a need for control. That makes sense.

Yeah.

I'm always trying to fix you.

Because you're trying to control me. Not me. I know.

You would get there so much quicker.

I know. Yeah, and not only... It's interesting because I never looked at it as... I think you and I have talked about this before with mom. Maybe. Yours or mine. I'm having deja vu. I never felt like I was trying to control the person. It was always trying to control the outcome or control the emotions or the situation. It was like managing expectations and not the person. But in managing the person, you're managing the expectations. You know what I'm saying? I know.

I think you're... Give me a What's a different word besides expectations. Outcome?

Results. Results? Okay. Sure. That I have in my mind? Yeah. I don't want this person to be mad at me, so I will do X, Y, and Z. Okay. So that is a way to control the outcome. Yeah, you do things, again, to protect the relationship instead of either being accountable or giving love or being present, you're protecting the relationship to control the outcome. Because, yeah, you don't want them. Either you don't want to get hurt or left. And oftentimes, feel like the only two options. Especially when you're dealing with abandonment and codependency, it is... For me, it's Abandonment is huge in those moments, where there is no... I don't see it as a working it out thing. There is no working it out. On my end, yes, but I'm always afraid the other person is not going to be in it for the long run or whatever. And so if they become upset, then it's over. There is no middle ground. And that is terrifying. And so I'm constantly trying to protect the relationship.

So it sounds like you can't see past the rupture.

Right. Because in the rupture, they're... Fuck.

You guys sent us some Polaroids. He's very sad.

Yeah, I just got... I fucked my cell up just now.

Donkeys and cows. What happened to you?

Buddy. Yes. Because... Oh, man. I can't even... Okay.

Open your eyes.

I don't want to. Open them. I don't want to. Do it.

Look at that. I got what I wanted.

Yep. Bullied me right into it.

Fine. Close them.

I am not... I don't feel worthy of the rupture.

You don't feel worthy of the rupture.

Yeah, I'm not worth it, man. So if there's a rupture, you're gone.

Okay, well, I'm going to stop you.

Yeah.

So what I'm hearing is you're not worthy of the repair?

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, it's easier to just... Cut you loose. Yep. That's why I have to protect the relationship, because Yeah. Oh, yeah.

We're not just going to move on. Sure.

I mean, next thing.

There's so much more conversation to have. I have a question.

Okay.

No. Okay.

You and the black tea?

Oh, me? Mm-hmm. Okay. You're not worthy of the repair. So for you, you would rather be a part of the relationship, even though you're not being yourself, you're not saying what you want. You're not allowed to have feelings. You would rather be in that relationship than be outside of it and be free.

Yeah.

That's a bummer. Yeah. That is a bummer.

Yeah.

I googled bummer and it had you. It had a picture of you with a mustache. Yeah.

And we'll get to that because that has to do with this week. The shit that we were talking about. But there's one more thing from last week that I wanted to share, which was just somebody said, when we're talking about our needs and somebody was like, Well, what do you need? That's always our thing is trying to figure out what everybody else needs. And in doing so, we lose our own direction. Yeah, that resonated with me.

It's also interesting that, I'm just speaking for you, For me, with regards to my experience with you, when you say you're always trying to figure out other people's needs, it's always guessing, never asking. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, because asking is making waves in my head.

You're like, Hey, what do you need? And you're like, I can't do that. I'm just going to go get a roast chicken, and hopefully, he needs a roast chicken. Yeah. And then you come in with a roast chicken, I go, What the fuck is that for? Yeah. And you're like, You haven't had lunch yet. Right. And I'm like, What the fuck is happening here?

Yeah.

Damn. Hey, bummer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, because and what is that doing? Protecting the relationship. Because...

I hate when you bring me chickens. Yeah. I'm going to cut one more chicken. I'm cutting you loose.

Flying the coop. So that brings us to this week. Hold on.

How are you feeling right now?

Oh, I felt like I was going to cry. Yeah, you look unwell. It came around to... That was a real-life or real-time discovery there about being worthy of repair. Never said that out loud. Didn't like it.

Well, thank you for trusting us to do it here.

Yeah. Shut up. Where else would I cry publicly?

Oh, that means this is the only place. Thank you for that.

Yeah, buddy. That is a real-time discovery.

Do you want to write it down so you don't forget to talk about it in therapy?

I'll never forget it.

Okay. Nice. Hey, fucking tight, man. Yeah. All right, what else you got?

Today was about low self-esteem. Yeah. And there was a story, not usually, sometimes. I don't know. I'm in this new meeting group.

Okay. If you guys want to go to the same codependence meeting we're posting, it's only going to be on Patreon. You can go to the Coda meeting with Michael Malone. We're not doing that?

No, God, no.

Then just go to Patreon, guys.

I'll post it. In this new meeting that I'm in, they go a step further. In the old meetings I was in, they would just show codependence behaviors and then in recovery behaviors. We would read them back and back to back, go down the list, and then we would see how many we could go through, how many shares. We would start with the first one, and then whoever wanted to share about it could, and we would go down the list. In this new meeting, we would go through all of them, and then we read a story from the workbook.

Okay.

Today's story was about a woman who was married to an alcoholic and a sex addict, and she didn't realize that because she was raised-Your mom was in this meeting? You know what? That was a safe space.

That was an easy one. Because your dad was an alcoholic. Yes. And was out on the town. That's all we know. Back to this lady. I'm so sorry.

Now, I'm going to take something out of your girls' playbook, okay? Yeah. Play too much. Yeah.

Okay? Yeah.

Play too much. Yeah.

You seem so uncomfortable. I'm very uncomfortable. I'm like, If we can get a giggle here and there, maybe it would be easier for you to get through. And that's me trying to control your experience. Exactly.

That's you being uncomfortable with my uncomfortable.

Dis comfort, yeah. Yeah.

Nothing makes you more uncomfortable than using the wrong words.

I mean, it's up there.

Yeah.

It's up there. Yeah.

Anyways, this woman, she didn't know that she was in this toxic relationship because she was raised by addicts. And man, as somebody who has addicts in their family tree, a A lot of the story related to me. And then she talks about their behaviors and this and that and what she thought was normal versus what wasn't normal. Anyways, we got to this list of behaviors that she was... These behaviors were just passed down to her generation by generation because they were just all dealing with addicts in their life. And so codependency is linked to that because oftentimes we are catering to the needs of the addict. So these aren't all... They were 10 of them, but it's not all of them. These are just the ones that I related to when it comes to codependency, and that is what we're taught, which is, don't express feelings. Be good and be nice, wear a smile mask.

Okay, let's go one by one, if that's okay. Sure. Don't express feelings.

Don't express feelings.

Except anger, frustration?

No, there is no exception.

For you, you were never allowed no feelings.

No feelings. You could express-Hunger. Well, hunger. For me, feelings, like don't express feelings meant you can, but you would just get shuffled along. We've talked about that before where it's like, well, there's no reason to be sad. There's no reason for There's nothing we can do. So don't feel it because there's nothing we can do about it. So for me, that's how I read that is don't express feelings because, yeah, what's the point in expressing those feelings? There's nothing we can do about it. So you're wasting your time. So just keep it moving. And that's what I was taught, was nothing we can do about it. So don't bother. Don't bother. No reason feeling sad, no reason to be angry, no reason to be whatever. That is what it is, so let's keep it moving. And also, nobody likes your emotions. That was furthermore what it was, was No. Hey, nobody got time for you crying. Nobody wants to see you cry. Do you think these people want to see you cry? No. Do you think these people want to see you upset or being sad? It was also sad emotions.

Making a scene.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're making a scene right now.

I remember that. Yeah.

Yeah. So.

I can relate to that.

Yeah. So that was very much what it was. It was just like... Yeah, you're putting other people out by having emotions.

Yeah.

Be good and be nice and wear a smile mask.

Yeah, pretty straightforward. That's your thing.

Yeah. Mom loves a good boy.

Yeah. You can laugh with her, Joe. What does it cost you? Just be nice.

Just be nice. Just be good.

Yeah, we love to be a good boy.

Be needless. Only addicts needs get met. Be needless, buddy. Be needless.

Yeah, that sounds very much like, don't make any waves.

Yeah. Happy to be here. Don't make any waves.

That's interesting for you because you Do you think your mom's way of keeping you needless was just doing everything before you had to ask?

Yeah.

Because you can't really remove someone's needs. No. Have them not state them or be able to recognize them, maybe?

I think it's... I mean, yeah, you can remove needs. You can. Hey, I don't need to do laundry. She's doing it. I don't need to make food. She's doing it. I don't need- But what I'm saying is you do need clean clothes.

You do need to eat.

But these things are already provided without asking or speaking up or even- I understand.

I'm saying the need, though, you can't remove it. You can't remove a human's need to eat. No. You can remove the need to prepare food for yourself. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I don't think you can remove the need. You can just remove the necessity of them voicing it.

Yeah. Would you agree you can numb the awareness?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's more so what it was, just a numbing of the awareness of needs. And more so, I think it speaks of just like, for me, at least, it speaks to Don't ask anybody for anything because it might upset them. Yeah, don't ask for... Only ask for help when you absolutely have to, but it's more so just like, don't ask for or favors, don't ask anybody. You can't say no. No is a need, because then I'm speaking up for my needs. Hey, I need you to run to the thing with me. Of course, because if I say no, then that's speaking to my needs.

No is a need. That's a wild principle. That makes perfect sense.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. Be needless.

Damn. No is a need. Yeah, I can relate to the not asking for help for different reasons. Yeah. It wasn't a be needless or be quiet. It's that I learned that if somebody helps you with something, they're going to hold it over your head forever. Remember what I did for you? Yeah.

And that's on narcissism. Dad, you hear that? Tell Mama, was it Papa? It was Papa. It was Papa.

You can't do anything with no strings. It's crazy.

Yeah.

So even when you're like, Hey, I'm going to do a load of towels. Do you have any towels? No, I'll do them. I don't ever need to know that you wash my towels.

I know.

What else you got? I don't want to talk about that. No, I'm not going to talk about that. Okay.

I pick up on this every once in a while. The other day on the hike, we were going down a steep part of the hike, and you got bad angles. Everybody know that. And this is at the end of the hike. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows that.

Everybody knows about my angles. They're legendary.

You got bad angle It's legendarily bad. But yeah, it's coming towards the end of the hike, this and that, and steep part going down. I hung back with you, and I even said to you, I was like, Hey, man, if you need to grab my shoulder or something like that, just let me. And you were like, No, I'm good. But I knew that you would never ask for anything like that. Yeah. In those situations, I like letting you... It's my way of letting you know that it's okay to ask for those things.

I know. I can't accept it yet.

I know.

Yeah. And also I'm like, buddy, if I go down, I'm going to snap your back in half.

Hey, snap it. I'm needless.

I don't even need to walk. I don't need this back. Turn my spine into dust.

But yeah, it's just... And that's also why I for towels on this neck because I know you're never going to.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm trying to chip away at that a little bit. Good luck. We'll see.

Yeah.

We'll see.

Don't quit. Don't quit on me now.

Yeah.

I know. My girl's always like, We do have towels, though. I'm like, I'll do it. Shut up. Yeah.

All of these things... Okay, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. I'm getting ahead of myself. Live Live to avoid conflict.

I can't wait to unpack this one.

Live to avoid conflict.

Because you love conflict.

I don't love conflict.

But only with people that aren't close to you.

Say more.

A guy in line. A guy in traffic. Yeah. You love... Oh, when somebody can't abandon you? Seeping out of you, seeping out of you. The desire for conflict.

Why?

Because you were never allowed to have it. Yeah.

It's repressed in me. If I get a chance to have a little taste of it, it's exercising that little thing because...

Yeah. I know when you said that one earlier, you were telling me this, I was like, Oh, this motherfucker wants to fight everybody. I was like, Oh, he's like his little rebellion.

Yeah. Because I can't fight anybody. I want to fight everybody. Yeah.

If you're going to fight somebody, make it a stranger. Yeah. No consequences there.

And also that's live to avoid conflict goes into accountability as well. Accountability feels like conflict because Being honest and being wrong and owning up to that It threatens the protecting the relationship part, and that threatens the abandonment part. And that goes into worthy of repair. So if I'm accountable for my actions, and you are upset with me, and you hold me accountable for my actions, well, then we're done. So I will avoid conflict, which also means, sometimes, avoiding accountability.

Because if your scene is less than perfect, there's no reason to stay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. Also, just putting that together in real-time. I want to cry. Moving on.

But what together in real-time?

The accountability factor into avoiding conflict. Yeah.

Avoiding accountability is a way of keeping yourself safe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's not okay.

It makes it hard to have genuine connections with people without accountability. Yeah. Yeah.

If I'm always what you need me to be, then there's no problem.

Yeah.

So I always say yes because no is a need and all that other stuff. Remain loyal at all costs. Never leave.

Yeah.

That is-If you dated him in high school and you're wondering why he still sent you a Christmas card, this is why. Never leave.

Yeah.

As codependents, oftentimes feel responsible for other people. Let's just leave it there, other people. And when you mix in the addict behavior or background. Okay. When it runs in your family and you've dealt with that, that's all you know. That's all I've known since I was a kid is dealing with addicts and how people... How so? I just see how people placate to them, take care of them, protect them, enable them. Because an addict is always threatening to throw you away because you're threatening.

Addocks are incredible manipulators.

Yeah. And so when you confront them or you have problems with them, and then it's dismissal of you because...

Dismissal of you, victimizing of themselves. Absolutely. An addict will threaten to kill themselves four times a day.

Yeah. So remain loyal at all costs, never leave. When you're dealing with addict behaviors, I saw that all the time. You remain loyal to them because they need you. They need your help. And if you leave, believe. Again, like you said, they're going to kill themselves. They're going to do this. They're going to do that. You are at fault. No matter what happens with them, you are at fault. That's what they want you to believe.

Yeah. That's what you have grown to believe.

Yeah. And that's what I was taught. That's what I visually was taught. That's what I was emotionally taught. That's what I... Everything. I saw it play out so many times. That, yeah, even in relationships without the addiction there, it is still hard. You want to talk about closing the door and all that stuff. What if they need me? And things like that. That's where that stems from, and I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't know that until today. That thinking, that behavior is directly linked to being for lack of a better term, like groomed around addicts, or groomed to cater to addicts. Last one. Don't get angry or upset. Internalize it always. Don't get angry or upset. Internalize it always. Which feeds into the first thing we talked about, which is showing emotion.

I don't see you struggling to withhold anger. You're usually pretty open with letting anger and frustration out.

Yeah. Yeah. I wrote that down mainly for the last part, internalize it always, which is just on a grander scale of emotions or feelings, internalize them. Because then if I speak up about them, then it goes into, again, causing waves and doing this and that, or it goes into people don't want to see that, whatever. So internalize it always. So I shared today in Coda about- You know what?

Let's do that on Patreon. Okay. Let's do it on the after the pod.

I'll tell you what I share it on the after the pod.

All right. Thanks for listening, guys. We appreciate you.

Probably cry. Love you.

And we know that.