Transcript of Brazil GP Preview + Are Lando & Max no longer talking? | Nailing The Apex

Oh, baby. Third of three weeks. Tim is actually going to be at home for this one, which is nice for Tim, I think. Right, Tim?

Yeah, it's good to get in my own bed. It's nice.

A hundred %. And listen, it's not without its story lines, the Brazilian Grand Prix. First off, we got Lewis Hamilton taking a ride in Senna's 1990 McLaren around the track. Today is Lewis Hamilton, who is a Brazilian citizen honorarily, which I think is pretty cool. But that's nice. They've done a lot of Airton said his stuff this year. What I really care about him is Lando and Max not talking to each other. Lando basically said, We don't talk. I'm not his mentor, which I thought was an interesting one. I can't teach him how to drive. He said, I still have a lot of respect for Max and everything he does. Not respect for what he did last weekend, but respect for him as a person and also what he's achieved. But it's not for me to speak to him. I'm not his I'm not his mentor or anything like that. Max knows what he has to do. He knows what he did wrong. Deep down, he does, and it's for him to change, not for me. So it's nice to see Lando and McLaren play in the media a little bit here, Tim. What are your thoughts on this?

Well, I knew they hadn't spoken to each other for a while. I think it was after the US Grand Prix, the two of them hadn't really said much to each other, if at all. Anything But it was interesting to note that when they were in the press room on the Saturday after qualifying for the Mexico Grand Prix, you could see that they were jovial with each other. It was not like they hated each other. They weren't talking. They would communicate a little bit within the press conference and laughed and smile the jokes and stuff like that. But I think it It goes back to Adam, what you were saying a few pods ago. It's like, you can't be this guy's friend right now. I mean, you can be his friend at the end of the season. You can be friends when you're 50, but you can't be friends right now. No. You can't because you're fighting for a driver's title. It will get personal, and you have to try and find ways of separating that. So if that means you're not going to talk for a while, then that's just the way it's got to be.

And you and I spoke at length about that weeks ago, and we spoke that it was going to get to this point, and here we are. But that's okay. It is okay. This happens. You can't have friends everywhere you go. Not everyone is going to be your friend. Not everyone's going to like you. But I mean, heck, all you can do is your best. I think for Lando and Max, at the end of all this, they'll return to streaming together, playing vids together and stuff. I think everything will be fine. But right now, gloves are off, and these two guys are fighting for a championship, and it's great for us.

It might be a good thing for their long term friendship that they don't speak anyway because something personal might come out. There are comments, man, that you can make in life and then you just can't come back from. Yeah.

Those are strong comments that Lando made today. Yeah.

But I mean, if we're talking not in front of the media, if you had a conversation, you have an argument, you get heated, things get said. I think for preservation of the friendship long term is this is probably better. Now, what's been adding to the drama of this weekend is that Max Verstoppen's change in his engine, and that's a five-grid race penalty instantly, and that does not apply to the sprint race. Max can still start wherever he qualifies there. We're talking the real deal, the actual race. Tim, that's tough timing, but at this point, Red Bull has to do everything they can.

Yeah, that was a friend of the show, Eric Van Haeren, who dropped that little nugget there this afternoon, earlier this afternoon, we're taping this on Thursday. So it's a five-place grid penalty for an internal combustion engine change. So it's not a full power unit swap over, Adam. The batteries stay in, Mguk, Mguh, all of those components are sticking around, which is a little concerning. I mean, you would think that they just go ahead and swap it all out and take the full penalty. Because you know what? I think They may have to take more as this season rolls along. I mean, as you go to Qatar, it's going to be blazing hot there. I don't know how easy all of that heat is going to be on the battery, the Mguh, Mguk, things of that nature. I mean, those things are already under a lot of stress. Well, the heat that's in there, but factor in the Qatar heat, it could become an issue. So it may not be over in terms of the penalties. I did speak I'm not sure about Max probably having to take an internal combustion engine penalty on... Where did I say?

It wasn't on here. Oh, it was on my TikTok. Sorry. But I did talk about it, and it is something that I thought he was going to have to take. I didn't think they were going to take it this soon, but this must be a place where they feel is easier to pass, easier for him to make up ground, which makes sense. I think Lewis took a penalty here in 2021, I believe it was.

That's a good memory because I would never remember that.

If I'm not a mistake, I could be wrong, but I could have sworn it is. Anyway, someone will correct me if I'm wrong. But yeah, no, I think it's a good idea, Adam. Look, they've had a lot of issues with the power unit side of things with Red Bull Racing this season, and I'm actually pretty surprised on that front, given that they didn't have a lot of issues with it last year, a year before. This season, though, they've had quite a few issues creep in. And I think Lando has to take advantage of this, Adam. Really do.

Yeah. It sure seems that way. If he's going to do it, if he's going to win and he's going to stay in contention, it feels like something big needs to happen this weekend. And that means sprint race win, and that means race win. It's got to be win. There's got to be a huge gap between he and Verstoppen. And I think while we're on the Red Bull track, there was a lot of speculation after Mexico that that was Perez's not just last race in Mexico, that it was his last race. And then there was a caption by his father on Instagram that was taken out of context. His English is obviously not his first language, and he edited it, so it's different now. I also love that he's such a dad that he I like types in all caps. I think that's amazing. But Sergio is under fire. Helmut Marco said, Future's uncertain. Christian said, Listen, it's a results-based business. He had a terrible weekend last weekend. And this could be it. I mean, this really, really could be it because it wouldn't make sense to replace a midweek. But let's assume Liam Lawson has a good race.

Might be the end. And I look at the World Championship and I go, It's probably out reach already. So why not give somebody a shot in the big car? And so, Tim, specifically as it comes to Sergio, do you think this is his last race with Red Bull?

It's really too hard to tell. Well, at this moment. I mean, there were a lot of rumors during the Mexico Grand Prix that he was going to get replaced after Mexico. Things that I had heard that this could probably be his last season at Red Bull Racing. I think it all just boils down to what he does and what Liam Lawson does. I think those are the two main factors. I mean, if Lawson continues on this trajectory that he's on, the last two races have been really strong. If he continues this way and he's continually beating Yuki Sonoda, then, yeah, I think it's game over for Sergio in that seat at Red Bull Racing. For sure. It has to be, right? When you look at 2025 big picture, you're not only going to have Ferrari, McLaren, who are going to be in the mix, but you're probably going to have Mercedes as well. You may have Aston Martin factor in there at the same point somewhere in the season. You need a good driver lineup. You need a strong driver lineup. And if Sergio is not getting it done at him, you You have to replace him.

I mean, it's unfortunate. It really is. It sucks. But this is Formula One.

There's been a ton of talk about his replacement, and Red Bull is said to have offered William's $20 million for Franco Colapinto. I don't know if that would be for V-Carb or for the senior team. It's crazy rumors at this point, but there clearly is interest, Tim, whether that $20 million is true or not.

No, that's true. There is definitely interest in Red Bull trying to secure Franco Colapinto's services. Look, I've spoken with Franco about his next year and what he expects to be doing. Look, there's interest from a lot of places, in particular, Red Bull Racing. And I don't think the number of 20 million is... I mean, that's a big number, Adam. That's a big number.

But I mean, in soccer, transaction fees are crazy. So I don't know.

We're talking like, Land O'Norris, Charles Leclerc money. That's big money. He's not there. Okay. He's not there. Franco's not there yet.

Well, I mean, Franco wasn't going to make that. It was just going to be Williams that took it. Yes, exactly.

But still- It's a lot. It's a lot. So without getting all carried away, William doesn't want to just let Franco go. They want to be able to bring him back. If they want to do a loan option with Red Bull Racing, Red Bull Racing doesn't want to do that. And I think if you're Williams, you can't just let Franco go. He has turned into a very talented driver that you don't know what he's going to become. And so you're best to just hold on to him as long as you can. And so if Red Bull is going to offer you some money, that's not necessarily worth it in the long run, Adam, because who's to say Alex does well next year or Alex and Carlos get along, or something happens with the 2026 car, one of their drivers flames out like you don't know, and you want to make sure you got a steady pair of hands that can jump in when you need it, you don't really want to just let Franco go. I can understand William is not just wanting to let him to leave. They probably want options on him. Red Bull, I don't think, want that.

They want to have him outrate.

Right. And that is almost the same situation as Gabriel Bortolato with McLaren, right?

I mean, Salver- Similar thing.

Interested, but McLaren wants a loan option, right? In case one of their guys leaves.

I think Salver is The situation, Adam, is interesting because even if... I think they're talking to Kevin Magnuson, too.

Yeah, he's had a good couple of races. It's a suspension.

It's not just Vulture anymore that they're talking to, right? There's other drivers who are in the mix. If Sergio were to not come back for 2025 to Red Bull Racing, who's to say that he doesn't end up there? That would be a logical option. That would be something I think Sauber would be interested in. He has a lot of strong backing from the Mexican market in terms of partnerships. So you would have to consider a Sergio Perez on your team. Now, I'm not saying that that's already happening, but it It would be logical for Sauber to reach out if this were to be Sergio's last season at Red Bull Racing.

Jeez, it's crazy. I cannot believe the driver market this year. It's just been unbelievable.

When James Valls was on here, Adam, he even said to us in a little bit of an undertone where it's like, Hey, we're not done yet.

Yeah, it's just never, ever. It's like there's more things.

It just does not It's really endless. He's like, there's more things coming. Yeah.

Wow. Okay, so back to McLaren, because we've covered a little bit of Red Bull. My question for McLaren is, we talked about how important it is for Landa to win this weekend. We've seen Oscar be a sophomore, and by that, I mean, he had a great summer. But if you want to be a champion, you got to be good spring, summer, and fall. And he's been okay in the fall by his standards. But six and seven is not good enough. What does they're in need to do this weekend? And will they have the car to actually win a race against Ferrari?

I think a couple of things, Adam. I think for Oscar not having the full upgrade for US Grand Prix and for Mexico, it is tough to judge him on that. Sure. That's fair. It is tough to say, Hey, he should have done better, could have done better, would have done better. I mean, he was Quickest in free practice three. I actually did think he was going to qualify in the top three for the Mexico Grand Prix, but again, just needs to get his own consistency stronger at this stage of the game because there is a lot at stake. When we look We have constructor standings at the structure standings, Adam, we have Ferrari who's in P2 now. We have McLaren's P1. The gap is literally nothing. And Ferrari is hungry. They're coming for it, man. They want it. That's the goal. Charlotte Claire even told it to us. The goal is constructor's Championship this season. I think for Oscar, they need him. They're going to need him badly starting this weekend moving forward. And for Lando, when we look at the drivers' Championship standings plus Instructors, standings. He's got to win. He does have to win this weekend.

Max taking that five-place grid penalty is... Again, we haven't gotten official confirmation on it from the FIA just yet, but sources are pretty wrong on that one, but he's got to rack the points in this weekend. This is a big weekend, and this is going to determine how much he can really chop out of Max's lead. This is not going to be a great track for them. This will be a good track for McLaren, I think, Adam, but maybe not so much for Red Bull.

Yeah. Mclaren has been very good at most tracks, but this track in particular, I feel like they've got a slight advantage here. They do.

I think so, yeah. Long sweeping corners, a lot of downforce. I think it suits their car. I mean, it's not going to be like when they go to Qatar. I mean, when McLaren goes to Qatar, I think they're just going to have... It's bye-bye time. They're gone. I don't think anybody's catching them. That's just my opinion. But yeah, for a Ferrari to hold them off, they've been really strong lately, ever since Monzo, when they introduced a floor to the car. It's a brand new floor to the car. They've sorted their stuff out, and they've been consistent. And both drivers have been hungry, and both drivers have been fairly confident with the car that they've been given every single weekend. And I think they've really maximized their performance targets. And I think when you look at a guy like Carlos Sainz, Adam, he still just wants to... He wants to win, right? The more wins that guy can get under his belt before he's out of Ferrari, he's hungry. He's going to be very hungry. And so is Charles Leclerc as Well, I think what's great with Charles, and specifically with Carlos, is they're racing like they've got nothing to lose.

Carlos really has nothing to lose. Just go for it. Yeah, good point. Go for it and win. Because the thing about Carlos is, as much as Oliver Beermann figures to be a part of Ferrari's future, there's no guarantees that... Who knows how long Lewis is going to drive? Who knows if Charles Leclerc does not start making good on the promise that everyone knows that he has? I mean, two years is It's a lifetime in Formula One. If Carlos goes out on a good note here, who's to say he might not be back? Or Williams takes the step forward that James Vallss thinks that they should. I mean, there's so many things that Carlos has going for him right now just because he's out of contract, but he's into a new one, new team. So just race your brains out and go crazy and have fun. Now, I want to talk a little bit about Mercedes, Tim, because we thought they might be coming on. They've made some driver errors. They haven't progressed as quickly. They are clearly the fourth team on this grid. Does that change between now and the end of the season?

I don't think so. It's going to be really tough, I think, Adam, for them to beat Red Bull. I mean, maybe they could do it, possibly. But this weekend, well, considering George had his crashes, the one at the US GP, the one in Mexico as well, and it cost them a lot, even with cost cap and then also with parts. They didn't have enough parts. George's floor got repaired. So it was a new floor George had, the updated floor at the US GP, and when he crashed, he damaged it. So that had to go back to the UK to get fixed. And then now that floor is back for this weekend. So him and Louis will get the updated floor for the Brazil Grand Prix. We'll see how it works out. I mean, hearing from Louis last weekend when I was in his press conference, he wasn't necessarily too happy with how the updated floor had gone. George was in the room waiting for his turn to do his press conference, and he was sitting back like this, and he was like, watch it. And Louis was like, Yeah, I tried to give my floor away to George, but I don't think he wanted it.

And George is chuckling in the corner and whatever. It was pretty funny.

They seem to have a good rapport, though. They do.

Yeah, they do. But again, I think they're both going to have the same updated floor. It's just that they can't afford to have any more collisions, crashes, things of that nature because they just don't have the parts, Adam.

That's wild to hear that Mercedes doesn't have the parts. But yeah, we don't want to start going over on cap and all that stuff. Yeah, exactly. There have been driver errors that you just go with Mercedes this year, specifically with George. It's like, you got to clean that up next year. That can't happen anymore. You're going to be the leader of the team and can't be crashing out and qualifying and things like that. But that's part of maturing. And the team, that car, fundamentally, Tim, has changed so much in the last three years since George has been there. People are hard on him, and I've just been hard on him. But I think at the same time, the car that he stepped into versus what it is now is like they are just different. They're not even on the same planet.

Yeah, night and day, really. I I think it was interesting. I heard from George today, so Thursday at Media Day. And interesting to note, he had mentioned the driving characteristics from bad cars that he's driven to last year's car to this year's car, and just the comparison between all of them. It was interesting to hear him just simply say with this car that they've got. So if you go back to I guess when they had the porposing issue. So if you go back to 2022, when the regulation was first brought in and the cars were bouncing through the corner, he said that was unnerving and you couldn't get the car close to the limit because you weren't... Because of all the bouncing. It was too hard to encourage the car to get there. And then he said with this car, he finds that once it gets in the sweet spot, it It integrates well, but basically, you can have the confidence going into a corner and being aggressive and then consistently doing that. But then at one stage, the car doesn't really give you a hint as to when it's going to snap loose or lose performance.

And so that's for them that's catching them out a lot. They're not too sure why that is. And as a driver, when you don't understand why that's happening, it can really drain your confidence because you just never know. So you're always not fully committed to the car. You're not fully committed to the corner.

Yeah. And that's troubling and frustrating.

It can be very, very, very, very difficult. I've been in a situation once with that. And Adam, it's very, very, very, very, very difficult. And I wasn't going at the speeds that these guys are going at through a corner. Right.

Now, I want to take a look here because we We've really done a lot of this this season. We've been talking about, oh, my goodness, Land of Norris is coming on, McLaren is coming on, whatever. I want to talk about some of the races within the race this weekend, that as we get down to the last few parts of the season, you start to go, oh, this driver is finishing higher than I thought, or this team could finish higher than I thought. So I'd like to run you through here. Currently, there's a battle for fourth and fifth between Piastri and Sines, and only 11 points separate. And you can make the argument, I guess, that Piastri could catch Charles Leclerc for the top three, but I don't think that's possible. It's about a 40 point gap there. How big would it be for McLaren to have two drivers in in the top four?

Huge, man. That'd be massive, right? Think about how challenging... Just how challenging the last... Oh, God, I was going to say 10 years, but even more, 12, 13 years. Think about Thinking about how challenging that's been for them. Oh, man, they were at some point- Basically, since Lewis won his title. Yeah, since what? 2008. It's just been horrible for them. It hasn't been great. To have two drivers in the top four, I would say to have two drivers finish in the top five. And for you to win- Which it looks like they will. Yeah. And for you to win a constructor's title or finish second in the constructor's standings, that's massive. It's huge. I don't think any of us thought that that was going to be possible this season. Not with how things started and where Red Bull was. I think all of us were just like, Oh, God, we're in for another one of those difficult seasons. This is really bad. Yeah. Verstappen got a second worth of pace over everybody. And then all of a sudden, all these teams start clawing back performance. And around China, that's when things started to go a little bit wrong for Red Bull, and things just started to spiral for them and get worse, or everybody else started gaining performance.

That's when these things really started to change. Then in Miami, that's when we really got that punch in the face from Rando. Really did. Even if we didn't get the safety car, he was going to finish P3 or P2. He had so much pace in his pocket in that first 10.

That will be interesting to watch. Another one that is a long shot, but given with the Where the cars are at, I think you should pay attention to. We got four races left, and there is, if my math is correct, a 31 point differential between Fernando Alonso and Nico Halkenberg.

Now, it's tough for Nico Halkenberg to get to a point where he's averaging six, seven points in a race to make this interesting, but tough for Fernando and Lance to even score points at this point with this car. Yeah, definitely. That's a good point.

You could try. Listen, if things work out the way they did last weekend, if Fernando and Sergio aren't finishing races or the cars are at the back, you could see Nico sneak into maybe eighth place, maybe. Sorry, ninth place, not eighth place.

Ninth place, yeah, for sure.

Which is interesting.

Adam is not out of the realm of possibility. If Aston Martin is not able to at least try and come away with some points here over the next two, three races, then I think even them holding on to P5 could be a challenge. If Haas continues on this upward trajectory that they've been on. They've been incredible. They've been so impressive. So I think it's definitely a conversation. It is definitely something for fans to watch out for, especially on track, to see where Hulkenberg can end up in these races and to see where both Haas cars can end up in each of these races that are coming up. Man, imagine if he passes the legend.

That would be insane, especially in a Haas. That's crazy. And then let's put this to you, Tim. His teammate, Kevin Magnuson, is two points up on Alex Albon and Daniel Ricardo. They both have 12 points this year. Magnuson is 14. Yuki Sonoda is eight points up on Magnuson, and Lance Stroll is two points up on Yuki Sonoda. So there's a scenario where Magnuson, if he races well, could catch Sonoda or Stroll. And at the very least, there's going to be a battle between Sonoda and Stroll. That's two points. That's a big deal.

Yeah, it is. I think to see if Lance can get back into the top 10, which, I mean, again, it all depends on if both drivers and team are able to get the car underneath them that they need to go and fight for points. I thought Lance, considering how well he drove with such a bad car in Mexico, I mean, very impressive. They don't serve out points for P11, but that was a masterful drive from him. I'm sure he's wishing he got points for a P11 because that was a hell of a day and a lot of work. But yeah, I mean, And Yuki Sonoda just back there, biting at your heels. But same thing for Sonoda. He can't make any more mistakes. I mean, what happened in Mexico, I'd look, I get it was a racing incident with Albon and everybody, but at the same time, I mean, dude, time and place. Yes, exactly. You're hauling ass down a straight away at 300 plus KPH off a start. I mean, give it another lap. Pick your spots. Yeah, pick your spots.

And then now on the team side, I I think it's interesting, but I don't think it's possible. Haas is exactly 40 points behind Aston Martin. So it has to be a disaster finish for Aston Martin. But there is still a mathematical scenario where Haas could get into the top five somewhere. They have not been, I believe, since 2017.

Yeah, there is a chance.

Which was the highest finish ever. And again, it's weird that we're talking about Aston Martin in this way, considering where they were 24 months ago in comparison to the rest of the field. They got a lot of work to do this winter. I'm sure there They're already on it, but it's a car that needs dramatic improvement and a car in Haas that has seen dramatic improvement. But here's why Haas has got to be careful. They are only 10 points up on RV, and RV While Yuki Sonoda, obviously, has had his mistakes, he's compiled a lot of points for them this year. And Liam Lawson has come in and got five points on his own. And I think with Liam, what makes it interesting is he's been extraordinarily aggressive And he was saying, listen, I'm not here to make friends. This was his restaurant. Yeah, today. Not here to make friends, here to win. It's entirely possible that Haas has a disaster for races, NRB ends up taking them over, right?

Yeah. The race bases looked really good, really strong. If you even look at where Lawson started at the US GP, Adam. I was trying to remember with the diagram that somebody drew that I was looking at. It's like the starting grid of the US GP, and it had all the starting boxes, and it's all the way around the corner, back by whatever, turn 18. It's like, Where are Liam Lawson starting today? That thing. Because of all of the penalties from the power unit that he had racked up for that race, that's where he was going to be starting. But it was a hell of a drive from him to US Grand Prix. And then again, in Mexico, just a really good drive. It was Yeah, he was really good, man. And so it's definitely a point scoring car. And so that's why if you're Yuki Sonoda, you really do have to think about the moves that you're trying to make at the start of races and the situations that you're putting the car into because now you're fighting over points in the constructor's standings that it's a realistic possibility that you can move up. And So you have to be really smart with what you're doing.

Both drivers do, not just Yuki, but so does Liam Lawson. I mean, he could have had a horrible weekend if he had gotten tangled up too much with Sergio Perez. So it goes on both of them, right?

Yeah.

You have to be smart about it, though, because there is a realistic chance here. And the more you move up in the constructor standings, Adam, as a team, the more money you're going to make, right?

Yeah. It's millions. It's tens of millions, right? Tens of millions.

Tens of millions. And that's important to these teams. You may sit here and think, it's only 10, 20 million to a team. That's a lot.

That's huge.

It's a lot. It is a lot for these teams.

And then, Tim, the last race I'm really watching for, because this is what Formula One is so amazing at, you care all the way top to bottom, right? You do care about where everybody finishes. And Williams and Alpine, the story of two disaster starts to the year. Alpine had a bad start. They had management issues. They had just a bad car, bad power unit, bad aerodynamics, bad, bad, bad. And then in Monaco, Ocon slams into Gasly. Just bad. And they're splitting those two up, and that's over. If both of these... And I guess I'll do Williams, too. They show up, they have one driver they have confidence in, one driver Adam and Burain, they barely showed up. And they didn't have an extra tub.

And then-They didn't have a spare car. Yeah.

And then Albon bids it. Logan Sargent has got to sit out a race. For both of These teams, they had better starts, more consistent starts in line with how they've done the rest of the year. They would be in contention right now with R. B.

And Haas for fifth and sixth place.

I think so. Or sorry, sixth and seventh place. Those are things that they got to correct over the winter. But there's only three points separating. William, 17. Alpine, 14. Eight feels so much better than nine. And Alpine is surprised a couple of times this year.

What do you think? Well, the thing even with Alpine, Adam, is they're still swapping updates. One weekend until they get full updates to the cars. One weekend, Gasly. I think Gasly had the update at the US Grand Prix, and then it swapt back, and then Ocon, I believe, had it in Mexico. And so you can't You just can't do that when you're fighting for these things. It's just both cars need it.

Why are they putting any eggs in Ocon's basket?

I think it's just part of the deal, Adam. You want to make sure you're treating both drivers equally. And they've been doing it all season. Let's be fair. They have been. And so you might as well keep it going. And it's not like Ocon is a slouch, man. That guy is like... I mean, both of their drivers are fast as hell. So I mean, definitely difficult to choose from who gets what first. But at the end of the day, I mean, with two updated cars, they have better chances of scoring good points. And I think the more they start to understand what they've got as they move forward in these next few races, I mean, the more likelihood of them scoring points is more realistic. So they're not out of it. Williams is not out of it. I mean, Williams just looked good since they brought their big upgrade. They looked really good.

Franco's looked good.

Yeah.

He's certainly... Albon, I think, has been thrown off by it a little bit. Oh, I think so. He hasn't looked to the form he showed us last year. The thing about O'Kon is, first off, it was announced today he and Beermin are going to be testing together, I think in December.

Yeah. Well, the Abu Dhabi test that they do at the end of the season when When we spoke with Ocon in Mexico, he wasn't sure if he was going to be testing with Haas, if his contract with Alpine would end in time for him to jump into the Haas. So I am not sure. If it's been reported that that's what's going to happen and the source is reliable, then it is. But as of Mexico, he wasn't too sure if he was jumping in there.

So if that is reliable, I'm excited to I'm really excited to see what he does. I don't know if they'll release any of the information to the public, but I'm very excited to see Ocon in that car. I think he's a lot faster than people realize.

And I wouldn't see why not, Adam. I wouldn't see because Alpine did it for Fernando at the end of 2021. And he was in the Aston Martin two days later for the same test. So Ocon's management could easily make an argument around that. So I could see it happening. I could. But yeah, I'm excited for that team for next year. Me too. Me too.

They're going to be fun. No matter what, it's either amazing or it's terrible. And either way, it's a great story. But I think it's going to be more likely amazing. Ocon, though, is not easy on teammates. So we'll see what guy Oliver Beermann is. Listen, name a teammate that's enjoyed being teammates with Esteban Ocon. Perez didn't like him Fernando doesn't like him. Gasly doesn't like him. He's a tough guy. I think maybe he and Daniel Riccardo got along really well. But who doesn't Daniel get along with? Right.

Yeah. I don't know. That's a good one.

They got to protect Ollie a little bit. I'm sure Ferrari is going to be like, You better keep that guy off of our guy. So that will be fun to watch. And of course, Sauber hasn't scored a point all year. And I don't think it's going to be possible, Tim. At the beginning of the year, if you had told me, because I remember our first podcast. I remember our first podcast, and I was like, Tim, are we going to get one more Mercedes win out of Lewis Hamilton? And you're like, I don't think so. And we got one. And we got one at Silverstone. Amazing. Oh, my God. But if I would have thought at that point, it would be more likely that Sauber got a point than Lewis Hamilton got a win. And here we are at the end of the season going, I don't think so. Tim, Would you bet on, if you were a betting man, and I don't know if you are, would you bet on Sauber getting one point for the end of the season?

No.

Oh, that's rough.

Well, I mean, maybe this weekend, and the only reason I say that is because of weather, because it's supposed to get a lot of rain this weekend. That would be the only way I think they could score points. That or There's just a crazy race where we lose 10 cars. Then maybe. Maybe. I mean, it's a bad car. How much have they really invested in it? And you know what? That's not the team trackside. That's not the drivers. That's not the trackside management. That's like upper management who are pulling the purse strings as to how much they What are they going to spend on things this year. What are they going to spend next year? Are they just going to take all their- What car will they even be? Exactly. What are they going to do with all their money? Are they just going to take it, save it, throw it towards the 2026 car? Which, in all honesty, I'd probably do that.

Well, if you're Audi, what does Sauber mean to you? The branding means nothing to you. Exactly.

I could definitely see that happening, Adam, where it's just You save up as much money as you can, and then you just throw it all at the 2026 car and you try and come out and be competitive because I think Mattia Banotto knows that with this team, the situation that they're in, what they have to do with the infrastructure, what they have to do with team personnel behind the scenes, how much recruiting they still need to do. There's a lot of work behind the scenes that still needs to get done. How are you still trying to understand how to build this 2026 engine like other teams are? What do you do? They're in a tough spot. 2026 probably still won't be great for them, but it could possibly be better with them saving and then spending. It probably could be done better that way.

There must be Sauber fans out there. There's this team, Championship-winning team at one point. There must be long-suffering Sauber fans out there who can't.

I don't think Sauber ever won a Championship battle. Did they not?

No. Okay, maybe not, but they had some good years, right?

They had some decent years. I wouldn't say, from my In my memory, I wouldn't say they had stellar years, but they had years where they were a point scoring team for sure. Okay. Yeah, 100 %. I just look at the driver lineup for next year, and obviously with just Nico Hulkenberg coming in and that second seat still undecided, it's important to make sure that the driver pair works. It gets along, but understands, Hey, this is the Yeah.

Okay, so here's what it is. I just looked up there. The highest they finish was second, and that was when Robert Kovitza was on a tear.

Yeah, that was with BMW, right?

Yeah. Mark Webber called Robert Kovitza one of the best drivers. It's such an unfortunate thing that happened to him in the accident because he said that guy would have won championships. And then they did finish third the following year. So 2007, 2008, they were a force with nick Headfield.

Heidfeld.

Oh, sorry. Heidfeld. Excuse me. And interestingly enough, they were the last place Jacques Ville-Doubs drove, and they were the first place Sebastian Vettel drove in his successive seasons.

So nick Heidfeld was I can't remember what the date was. I want to say 2001. He was with Sauber. And he was the first ever F1 driver when I was a junior. We're talking junior, junior, junior, that I actually got to hang around with and learn from. And that was in 2001. He was in Formula One with Sauber, and I was just first year in open wheel racing, just still learning and everything. And I got to talk to this guy and learn some stuff. It was great. He was great. He was extremely nice. I really like his... Yeah, it means a lot when you're a younger driver, you're really young, and you You watch this guy on television, you're star struck a bit because you're just like, Oh, my God, you're nick Heidfeld.

Well, it gave rise to as a team, and we could do next year around this time, we could do like a RIP Salvo. Our segment, but it gave rise to Heinz-Harold Franson and Giancarla Fizzakella, Felipe Massa, Johnny Herbert raced there, John Alaisi. There There's some really, really great names. Obviously, Charles Leclerc was there. That's quite the team, quite the team, or at least some great drivers came through there, no question.

Yeah, they got a lot of history, right?

Yeah, just not a lot of points.

Not this year. I think my favorite Sauber color look was, I think, that 2001, 2002. It was blue and white, a bit of yellow in it. It was cool. It looked really nice. I think at some point they had some Red Bull sponsorship, if I remember correctly. I'm going so far back. Right, they did. They did. I'm going so far back on that.

Yeah.

God, I'm old.

Well, listen, man. You know what?

It's going to be over 20 years for me, Adam. It's going to be more. It's probably more than that.

Life comes at you fast, Tim. It comes at you fast.

It certainly does. Yeah.

Well, listen, man, I'm very excited this week, and I think it's going to be great.

Before we take off, Adam, I got to talk to you about a couple of things that happened today during Media Day, because there's a lot of chat between drivers, drivers to media. A lot of it So we were focusing on, obviously, the penalty that Max had picked up in Mexico, both of them, 10-second time penalties, one for turn four, the other one for turn eight. And a lot of interesting conversation came out of it. I had started some of that conversation back in Mexico with Esteban O'Khan, Charlotte Claire, Christian Horner, Mike crack, Ayo Kamatzo, and I talked to them a lot about track deterrent and gravel, grass, something that's going to stop drivers from doing these types of either dive bombs, forcing another driver off of the track, or drivers who really just aren't going to make a corner and forcing another driver off the track, while also them leaving the track as well, just because of the amount of runoff that there is available and they're having to be track to turn. Just as a fan, Adam, You've watched Formula One for a really long time. When you see some of these tracks now, like turn 12 at Coda, and you see all the runoff that's there now, what do you think?

Are you just watching this being like, how the hell are both of these cars gone off the track while fighting over a position and still been able to come on, no damage, no nothing, and continue on?

Well, I mean, I feel that way for sure. I don't know. I think, Tim, So here's what it is. I've been very humbled by doing this show with you because I realize how little I know about this sport that I've followed for years. And I think not to have a middle of the road take here, but there's a part of me that's different. I don't trust governing bodies in sports all that often. I know that they're not... For instance, Formula One under Bernie Ecclestone. There were actual things in place so Ferrari would have an advantage to keep them in the sport. No, that's Mark Webber said in his book, and I think actually Adrian knew he did, too. So I don't think they're out there making spurious claims. I think that's real. But when it comes to that stuff, I just don't know enough. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, I can't. It didn't used to happen. And I look at what Max and Lando have done. I think what's bothering me, to be honest with you, is how both drivers go off track and how that's called. Can't stand it. There's no consistency on that.

That's what I would say. But Tim, for me to have an answer like that, I mean, I'm all about... I'm the fan who's like, just show me the entertainment part. You know what I mean? And I don't have the... Do you know what I mean? I don't have the technical know-how yet, but I'm learning. Do you know what I'm saying?

Okay. So Adam, if we go back, if this is like 2001, and Mika Hackinen and Michael Schumacher are fighting like Verstappen and Norriss are.

Yeah.

Do they finish a race?

No.

Okay.

No. Especially if Schumacher is If Schumacher has got more points at that point, he'll knock them out.

He did.

He did it all the time. What I'm trying to say is you had track to turn.

You had grass, you had gravel. So you had to think about how you were going to get around somebody. And if you were going to get past and you know you couldn't defend it, you couldn't go off. You couldn't do what Max had done at Coda. You couldn't do what he did at Turn 4 in Mexico. It wouldn't happen. You couldn't do the same thing that would happen between him and Lewis Hamilton in 2021 in Brazil. You couldn't do those things. You'd be in the wall. You would. And you may not have taken the I'm not going to let you get another guy with you.

You might have just been gone.

You might have just been gone. Yes. So that's one of the things that when I look at... I mean, Louis put it pretty well today in the press conference talking about track to turn and how he thinks that... He feels that would help. I agree with him. I think it would help, too. I also think, and this is what George Russell spoke about, was consistent FIA A, stewards. I agree with that as well.

Yes. Why are they different every race? I know.

I mean, that's the thing. I think that's what drivers want. I think that's what we all want is just consistency. So even if you have a rotation, Of the same three stewards, maybe it's three of them one weekend, three different ones the next, and then the ones who were at the weekend before are back for the third week.

So you do every other race?

Yeah, you just do every other race, even if it's too much.

Here's the issue for me. If the drivers and the teams can do every race- Stewards can do every race. The stewards should be able to do every race. I agree. Yeah. Now, maybe you rotate them in and out because you got a steward that gets yelled at by one team and they're still I'm not over it by the next race. So you switch people in and out. I could see that. I could see reasoning for that. But Tim, the idea that you could ever apply the rules fairly and consistently every race with a different person 24 times.

Yeah, it's impossible.

I think it's crazy. But I like what you're saying, though, about the sand traps and the grass and all that stuff and the gravel. I think that you don't have to have as much... If you bring all that back, you don't have to be as hard core about the line rules because nobody's going outside them.

Yeah. But you also don't need to be that hard core with how much either gravel you put down, astro-turf, grass, whatever. If you look at what they did in Austria this year, do you remember Austria 2023? And it was like everybody was doing track limits at the second last corner. It was like, time penalty, time penalty.

Yeah, they had just really started to apply them.

Yeah, but it was like 500 track limit penalties within the race, and we were waiting until like 6 hours after the race to find out who had penalties and who didn't to get a finishing order. So this season, they put down gravel. There is gravel there, and it's gravel that's removable, so it's not permanent. So if you want to have other racing series that take part there, you can. So why doesn't the FIA and circuits get together in Formula One? Get together and talk about some of these parts of tracks that they're starting to have issues with when it comes to the racing, because the racing is only going to get closer.

Yes, agreed.

And this is happening a lot more because the racing is so close. So it's now starting to become even more of an issue because cars are getting, drivers are getting closer, and they're now battling more. So I'm thinking, it's just, why don't you just do the same thing they did in Austria? You just put down a bed of gravel that can be removed at the end of the race. You just put it down before the race gets there. Yes, it's going to cost you some money, but at the end of the day, it will make the racing better, and we won't get situations like we've had the last two race weekends. And fans can then see... Fans of Max Verstappen, fans of Lando Norris, there wouldn't be as much complaining, conspiracy, and all that stuff, right? Because there's a white line right there. It's just like, hey. Pretty It's fairly obvious what you got to do there. So I'd be interested to see where it goes for sure. I mean, I'm in favor of track deterrence. I mean, I'm in favor also of having consistent stewardship because I think Adam, you watch American sports. I watch a ton of American sports.

And the players know how they can play by who's on the floor officiating them that night or on the ice or on the field. And they know. They know what they can do and what they can't do. Pretty straightforward, right?

I think so. It makes just too much sense. And it's an American sports company that owns them. So I feel like that's probably the direction they're going to go.

Who knows? I hope so, man. It'll be great. The thing is that there's not much F1 can do about it, right? Because the FIA is its own governing body. So they're going to be the ones.

I'm sure Liberty can say, Listen, You're going to do this or we're going to make problems. That's the thing about money. They are, Yeah, really? Oh, sorry. Who has all the money? Oh, that's us. Oh, that's crazy. That's so crazy.

Adam, we're taping this on a Halloween afternoon, what are you doing tonight?

My daughter's with my ex-wife, so they're out. But she went as Wednesday Adams to school today. And I think she's going to switch costumes like a Britney Spears concert and go to... I think it's one of the... She watches a show called Monster High. I think she's going to be the vampire because they all dress like they're Monsters, but they dress like basically punk rockers. So I think she's going to do that. What about yourself, Tim? Any big You're going to be in parties tonight?

I got nothing, buddy. It's bed to early. It's bed early. Got to get up. I got to get back into routine. I got hot yoga tomorrow morning at 07:00 AM. Got to get back on the fitness train. I swam the morning. Yeah. Oh, God, it was dreadful. I did my best to train in the US during the US GP week. I did my best there. It's hard during the F1 weeks when you're away doing it because as soon as Thursday hit, you're nonstop until the end of Sunday. When I got to Mexico, I got even busier. And so my watch gave me a little ping I think it was the Friday or the Saturday, and it's like, dude, you're detraining. We need to do something. Too many tacos, fat man. We need to get you training again.

I love that. Well, Listen, man, enjoy. I mean, you got to enjoy the tacos. It's Mexico.

Come on. Oh, they're so good.

But listen, enjoy the weekend. I'm excited to talk Monday. We may have a real serious... We're going to know, I think, how the last three races will play out after this in a much more intense way. And I'm very excited because we're going to ratchet up the intensity, hopefully by the end of the season.

Yes, sir. Thanks, Adam. Appreciate it, man.