Transcript of Inside Executive Search: Why Empathy & Self-Awareness Build Better Leaders with Les Csorba

On today's episode of Right About Now, I'll talk to Les Chorba. His new book, Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly, is coming out. And guess what? This is impactful. We need to see how others see us if we want to get ahead. It's about self-awareness, but ultimately, it's about understanding the good, the bad, and the ugly about the way we're managing, talking, and seeing our people. We got to be aware of what we're doing. Les talks about that along with his experiences working with some of the greatest leaders of the world, ex-presidents, some of the largest players at some of the largest companies. Les gives all those insights and more. How to see yourself clearly right now.

There are some common characteristics of highly self aware leaders. They tend to be more objective. They tend to have a little bit more respect and they're kinder. And they also tend to be the kinds of leaders and people that can make friends with people that they don't agree with all the time.

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Hey, guys. What's up? Welcome to Right About Now. We're always giving you what is here, what is now, so that you can get right. That's what I always say. And look, in my career, I've actually had to do this quite a few times. You're not great at it. I wasn't. That's like looking in the mirror and knowing, what am I seeing? How are people seeing me? You got to see yourself clearly. That's why we've got the author of Les Chorba. He is the author of Aware, the Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly. What's up, Les?

Hey, Brian. Thanks for having me. Great to be with you.

Yeah, man. I like this topic. The fact that I like this topic, and when your people reached out, I was like, I'm self-aware to remember how unclearly I've seen myself at times that this is an important topic.

Well, yeah, self-awareness, it's not anything new. It's been talked about for centuries in terms of the wisdom of self-awareness. But what's new is we're at historically low levels in our institutions, our leadership. I would also argue our relationships. That's what the book is about, is how do you show up as the best version of yourself, really by understanding your strengths and your flaws.

You worked with the senior George Bush, the President, the father, the father-son. You've worked some of the who's who. The greatest leader of the modern planet is the President, typically at the time. You've seen a lot. Who's the most self-aware leader you've ever worked with?

It's interesting you bring up George Herbert Walker Bush, because I had the honor of working with him in the White House in presidential personnel, which is how I got into the headhunting or executive search business. But his longtime friend, James A. Baker III, the former Secretary of State, told me that George Bush was the most self-aware person he had ever met. I think that there are a lot of contemporary examples of self-awareness. Jamie Dimon, the chairman CEO of JPMorgan Chase, is a guy that is still working on stuff. In fact, the argument I make in the book is that the best leaders are those that don't view themselves as the completed, finished product. Jamie Dimon is working on being more empathetic as a leader and maybe cleaning up some of his language. I just love that icons like that are still working on stuff.

I've had enough failures to know. If I think I've got to the destination of having it all figured out, reality likes to set in on me quickly. It's like, I know what I don't know. Probably better now than I ever did. But we always need guides and books like yours to help us. I don't care who you are. There's always something that you could do better or be more aware of or empathetic. Empathy is a really important word, I think, in that self-awareness. Dig in that a little bit for me less.

Obviously, empathy is huge in leadership. I make the argument in the book that the best of the best leaders over the career that I've had are those that have incredible the self-belief without the self-absorption. If you think about it, that's a pretty hard combination to pull off without having a high level of awareness and the courage to engage those flaws or weaknesses, but also leverage the strengths and turn them into superpowers and really have an impact on the world and humanity, whatever you're creating and building or whatever it is. Empathy is huge. You got to be the leader that can make the tough calls, be decisive, provide feedback that's clear, but you also have to be empathetic at times as well. So it's a balance.

You brought up a really interesting point. Confidence and arrogance is a fine line. Who have you seen and worked with in your time that you felt like demonstrated that? When I think of George H. Bush, I don't know that that... This self-awareness thing actually makes sense when I think back to him. I don't know if I think of him, though, as maybe the most confident president ever. Maybe tell me a leader you've worked with that was confident but not arrogant.

Yeah, well, I mean, I mentioned Jamie Dimon. I think he has that balance between confidence and humility. He's certainly very blunt, very direct, very decisive. He was really one of the few CEOs during the financial crisis that really not only survived but thrived. He's the type of leader now that has this obsession, just this radical paranoia, if you will, healthy paranoia, just to make sure that everything is going well. He's got that confidence. He shared with me the story 15 years ago or so. He was at home taking a work call, and he got very irate and very angry with one of his colleagues on the other other line and used some pretty salty language. When he was finished with the call, his middle daughter started crying and said, Dad, why are you so angry? Of Of course, that was a defining moment for him in terms of how he showed up with his team as well as his family. He knew he needed to be more empathetic and show up with more sensitivity with his team and his family.

Talking with Les Jorba, he is the author of Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly. Les, let's give some value here for our listeners that might be different spaces, places in their leadership journey. What are some blind spots that you see or talk about in the book that are common for whether early, middle, or late leaders?

There's so many. There are leaders that are obviously micromanagers, over-controlling, leaders that get overly emotional or distracted easily, or they're the smartest guy or gal in the room. But I think the most prevalent, fastest-growing blind spot in corporate America is people pleasing. Over 52% of Americans refer to themselves as being people pleaser. I'm the classic people pleaser. In some cases, people pleasing works well. Somebody that can always say yes and solve problems and be well liked. But in terms of leadership, if you want to lead, you can't worry about being liked. You got to be clear. You got to give clear direction and expectations. You got to provide feedback, even if it's tough feedback. People pleasing is a real issue. It has a lot to do with our culture. Obviously, this constant validation in our culture, the digital culture of constant feedback and all the algorithms that are positive reinforcements, I think has contributed to this people-pleasing that we have in our culture and in our businesses.

Yeah, I'm going to go there, even if you won't. Coddling is what I'd call it. When I say that, I don't go, I want to go back to the old days where we just overworked it. No, it's not that, but it's work for a reason. We have jobs to do. We need outcomes to happen. Yeah, we all have personal things. We need empathy and all that. But we threw the baby out with the bathwater a little bit. In some of this. And remembering, I joke sometimes when you're talking about here about Google having these nap pods and all these other things. And I'm just using them as the example. But is the job to make sure the employees are comfortable or is the job to sell something and to be a bottom line.

In some cases, some of our cultures, which have been designed to be very people-oriented and people-friendly, which are great, by the way. You want a people-first culture. But in excess, it can be detrimental to the purpose of your business, whatever it is, to solve whatever problem and to create value for your customers or your shareholders. Leaders have to be mindful of that for sure and aware of it for sure.

You got a couple of names that are on here. Elon Musk, Warren Buffett. Talk to me about these guys. Are they self-aware?

I actually We think Elon Musk, for whatever faults or however controversial he is, I would actually consider him to be fairly self-aware. I mean, he has identified his issue as being pathologically optimistic, which makes sense if you think about it. If you're building five, six, seven companies and you want to send a rocket to Mars, and you want to build EV vehicles, and you want to build these underground tunnels and all the things that he has done and accomplished, you have to be optimistic. But I think the reason he recognizes that it's a potential blind spot is any strength that's overused can derail. The way that would derail is if you're hard on people or if you have deadlines or expectations that are unrealistic, that can be a derailer. I would consider him to be pretty aware of the thing that could hold him back, which, of course, is this pathological optimism.

It's interesting. He has to be because you might mistake him like an evil genius, but I don't think of him as evil. I'm just saying he gets bucketed there. I think he has to be optimistic because negativity and disbelief are all excuses for things not to happen. The reason he has made some of the impossible possible is that optimism. We all do growing old, if you start burning too many bridges, you can't get back across.

Well, he also has that incredible self-belief that I talked about earlier. I do believe that if you just read the epic biography by Walter Isaacson on Elon Musk, clearly, the guy is motivated more than just creating wealth. He wants to save humanity, and he wants to create an alternative universe or planet for all of us to live on in the event of some catastrophe. He's got bigger objectives beyond his own success and his own wealth. Then you mentioned Warren Buffet, by the way. Warren Buffet, I would also argue, is very self-aware, which has a lot to do with his humility and his Midwest values. He's talked about how he's obviously from Omaha and has that nice Nebraska personality. But the problem is, as he's recognized over the years, he may have been too slow to move out underperforming managers because he's so loyal to them and he gives them so much authority. He's recognized that was an area that perhaps he needs to be on guard with. I think all of these incredible leaders that have succeeded do have a certain level of awareness that has really contributed to their success.

I hope we can move past this point of the politics, some of the leaders, the things that are happening now where it's almost like so venom us that some of our leaders don't really care to be self-aware because they're in such battle with one another. It seems like we've thrown out, I don't know, the playbook here of modern leadership in a lot of ways.

I'm so glad you raised that point because it's timely for the moment that we're in as a country. Our research at Hydric & Struggles shows that there are some common characteristics of highly self-aware leaders. They tend to be more objective. They tend to have a little bit more respect and they're kinder. They also tend to be the kinds of leaders and people that can make friends with people that they don't agree with all the time. That objectivity, that humility, that ability to reach across and bridge the boundaries divide us is an important characteristic of a highly self-aware leader.

Yeah, we need a lot more objectivity. I mean, even if I fall on certain lines a certain way, I just think a lot of subjectivity happening. I can even agree with sometimes someone, but I just don't like some of the methods that are happening today. That's why we all need this book, Aware: The Power of Seeing Yourself Clearly. Where can we get the book, Les, and any other projects in the works?

Yeah, no, thank you very much. The book is available on all major retailers, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Anybody can go to, if they're interested, go to my website, leschorba, L-E-S-C-S-O-R-B-A. Com. There's a self-awareness scorecard. If any of your listeners are interested, it's a 30-question survey. Takes probably 15, 20 minutes, but I'm grateful for your support and really enjoy being with you.

Yeah, my pleasure, Les. We need more of this and more of leaders like you. Hey, guys, you know where to find us, rianisright. Com. We're going to have links to Les' book. Look, you think Getting Ahead is the addition of all of the outputs that you do, when in reality, being self-aware allows you to reflect on what can take you forward. We appreciate Les. We appreciate you for making us number one. We'll see you next time on Right About Now.

This has been Right About Now with Ryan Alford, a RADcast Network production. Visit rianisright. Com for full audio and video versions of the show or to inquire about sponsorship opportunities. Thanks for listening.