Transcript of Trump's AI Stake, SpaceX's IPO Froth, and Apple's Siri Overhaul

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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

I'm Scott Galloway.

How you doing, Scott? We're both in New York, not seeing each other.

Actually, I got— I saw one of those TikToks Friday night. I went home and I was, you know, I don't like to do this, but I had a few drinks and I get very sentimental when I'm a little bit drunk. And I saw all of a sudden all these reels about how basically 90% of your time spent with your kids is before the age of 18. And I have an 18-year-old leaving for college in the fall. And I freaked out and booked a flight home Saturday morning and canceled all my meetings Monday through Thursday. Oh my God. So you're back.

What?

Yeah, back in London. Well, good for you. And immediately walked in the house and neither of my boys wanted anything to do with me.

Well, you're there though.

You're sure. They're in the room playing video games, talking to friends. And I'm like, oh my God. They're like, anyways.

Well, that's good. Oh, how nice. That's nice. I heard you were out. You know I was tracking you. I texted you several times.

Do you have the Stasi out?

I have Stasi. I am Stasi. You were out with some famous people. Apparently you walked into something with Sean Penn and walked out with Martin Scorsese. I don't understand what's happening. I don't understand.

But the scariest thing is I get a text message from you saying, "Why are you at the Greenwich Hotel with Sean Penn?" And I'm looking around like, "Jesus Christ, I'm being watched." My friends write me whenever they see you out and about in the thing.

Oh, God. It's very fun.

Yeah. Let me put it this way. That could get so much worse.

I know, exactly. Now I'm watching you at all times. I'm monitoring you. I have to. I have to for my own career. New York is really, kicking it. I gotta tell you, it's so weird. The kids did come into Brooklyn, so everywhere you go, there's not a part of the city that's not on fire because of the Knicks, you know, the Knicks things. But it's not that, it's something else. It's really interesting.

Well, it's a lot of things, you know, the— I mean, okay, crime is at historic lows, bankers' bonuses are at all-time highs, new stores, uh, the city has shed its skin since COVID People are excited. About the new mayor. People are excited.

World Cup is coming.

World Cup is coming. And the thing I noticed that was really exciting is we used to love to go to different European cities during the World Cup. Like if Paris was in a World Cup match, you can go in Paris and it's just fun. Everyone's just on fire. When I was in, I was in Morocco when Morocco made it to the quarterfinals. It felt that way in New York during, for the Knicks. You go out by any bar and there's just a ton of young people watching the Knicks game.

Yeah. You know who's, you know, the skunk that's coming to the garden party? The Madison Square Garden.

Trump.

He's fucking it up. You, they have all these outdoor watch things all around Madison Square Garden, which is really fun. And now they can't do it cuz stupid Trump is coming to the, to the game. The Dolan, James Dolan, who's kind of a toad, has invited him, which ruins it for all the fans. That's how much he cares about, you know, blue collar people who can't afford the ridiculously priced tickets. It's really fun and stuff. And now they can't do it because you need a perimeter around the garden, which is in the dead center of Manhattan, which is— that creates all manner of nonsense from traffic point of view. Anyway, I think that sucks.

I'm surprised he would want to be there. I would think that crowd would—

they're gonna boo the shit out of him.

I would think so too.

They are absolutely— it's going to be bad. I think it's going to be. And he's wrecking it for everyone, and the traffic issues already aren't bad enough. Anyway, um, you know what I did this weekend? The kids came up to Brooklyn and we did a little kite flying in Prospect Park and stuff, but I to the loveliest wedding in Connecticut. It was a guy who was a producer. His name is John Adler, got married to his longtime partner. And so it was a gay wedding at a country club in Westport, Connecticut. And it was so fun. It was really fun. It was the straightest gay wedding I've been to, but it was lovely. The family was there. They were so supportive. And it took— I felt good about humanity after this wedding because there was— and a lot of the like this guy, jeweler, it was like uncles and cousins. They were all Pivot fans, which was nice, and asked me about you. So the jeweler asked me the, like, it was nice. It made me feel good about humanity. It was nice.

That's what weddings are generally supposed to do, right?

Not always.

Not always. Nice.

Yeah, sometimes I go to a wedding, I'm like, this isn't gonna last. But, um, but this was just one of these wonderful family weddings that was really enjoyable. Um, we've got a lot to get to. Um, I'm glad you're back in London with your boys, so I think that's a good thing. Um, Hunter Biden, he's into his act too, and I'm loving it. He has fame on X. Former president's son now has 700,000 followers on the platform after he reemerged last month saying, "I'm Hunter Biden. You never actually heard from me." Since then, he's taken this incredibly candid approach. He's quite canny at social media, joking about his previous controversies, including drug use. In one post, he addressed the bag of cocaine found at the White House in 2023, saying it definitely wasn't his because he would never forgotten his drugs. In another, he replied to an accusation that he was part of an elite oligarch class with a selfie himself at a Super 8 motel off I-95. It's really interesting because he's actually engaging with MAGA people a lot and they're kind of liking it. They're kind of liking him. Really interesting. I know it's kind of silly and sort of memey, but I gotta say I find it very interesting how he's doing it.

It's authenticity.

I think people, yeah, he's like, he's funny. I think people like—

self-deprecating.

Yeah. And I think people love that kind of vulnerability and honesty. And also I think I'm on this anti-optimization kick, or I think that, I think the optimization trend has just gotten way too fucking far.

It has.

And you see that if you're truly about optimizing, you go to 80%, 80% of good sleep, good health, good nutrition, and then you indulge the other 20%. You don't want your metrics to consume the joy in your life. And I also, I think people are just sort of ready for a funny guy who smokes crack.

I don't. Well, he doesn't anymore.

Uh-huh. Anyways, from what I've heard, it has, it's pretty addictive. But anyways, I hope for him that he's no longer smoking crack. Yeah. But I think Hunter, he's just a unique personality. He's got that kind of, I don't know, for lack of a better term, that Twitter-iz. But the thing that kicked it off, and I hate to admit this, was his interview with Candace Owens. Yeah, that was, that was part of his comeback tour. And I, I, I, I refused to watch it because my understanding is he, he kind of indulged her conspiracy theories on Israel, Charlie Kirk, and Trump's assassination attempts.

Or he didn't push back.

But the Google, the Google search on Hunter Biden is, is skyrocketed. He is, you know, he's an interesting guy. And there's, get this, there's now a 26% chance on Kauschee that he runs for president in 2028.

No, he's not going to be president.

One in four chance.

I like that he's defending the Bidens. They've been so cloddish about defending themselves. I don't think Joe Biden's so great, or Joe certainly isn't, but he's sort of like, yeah, we're broken people, so what? And like, the stuff, the shit you're throwing around about me isn't true, but some of it is. So I think that's why it works, is that he's defending his family in a way that feels real.

That's a great point. People want to like a Biden right now.

Well, but they— I don't think the Bidens have done a great job.

That's my point. They're looking for someone to like.

Yeah, exactly.

I don't— I thought Dr. Biden.

I thought she did a bad job.

I don't think she's— she hasn't served the Biden family well in my view.

They seem, you know, she's mad and righteous.

Yeah, I don't—

anyways. Anyway, I'm really enjoying Hunter. I'm really enjoying what you're doing. And it's interesting where it goes. I'll be interested because you can't just live on Twitter and social media alone as Spencer Pratt just found out. There was a lot more more heat around him than there were votes. And so he's just been surpassed in Los Angeles. And, and of course the right is saying that, including President Trump, that the election was stolen. It wasn't. There was a very big movement around, um, it's Nithya Raman, uh, who is a very well-qualified person, and she's pulled ahead of him in the LA mayoral primary and is probably going to stay there. And of course the right is calling it rigged, but it's not. That's how they do votes in California, slowly. 'Cause a lot of mail-in. So that was a lot. It was sort of snakes. He was like snakes on a plane of politicians. That's my feeling. Although he did okay. He got a lot of votes still.

Yeah. I'm, I think it's, I actually think the California elections are somewhat heartening, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah. Steyer was money. Hilden was attention. Becerra appears to be experiencing competence and he appears to be doing well. And the mayoral race, I mean, at some point we're gonna talk about candidate quality 'cause it struck me as incompetence versus, a conspiracy theorist, but I like the fact that he came in third. It's actually bad for Bass.

It is, because this other woman's impressive in many ways. She's a Democratic Socialist, I think, but she's got, you know, she's an MIT person. She worked on homelessness. She worked in India. She's a really interesting character. Well, I don't know enough about her, but I certainly am going to learn. She's got a race on her hands here now.

She is interesting, but more than that, it's D versus D now versus D versus R, and D versus R in LA, it vastly skews towards D, especially when the D is probably their primary qualification to run for mayor is that their house burned down. Yeah. So, you know, California politics have been kind of— it's blurred the line between entertainment and public service. But, you know, at least Netflix cancels shows when they're underperforming. They don't seem to do that in California. And I think a lot of this bullshit has started with not only Trump, but the fact that it appears that the primary qualification for a cabinet post now is that you're a TV, you know, a news host or a celebrity.

But it didn't work, right? You know, it didn't work. His every— he had a lot more heat on social media than real actual voters, which is, you know, it's interesting because we talked about this last week, but you know, we said that Daniel Lurie is doing a great job in San Francisco, but he's also online. And I said, it's not like he's compelling like Spencer Pratt, who's a douche nozzle. And I got a call from— and all this, I pick up the phone, I wasn't looking who called, and he goes, not compelling, and it was Daniel. And I said, yes, that is how you—

that is why you're doing something the best way.

Yeah, I said that. I said, no, you're not compelling at all, and, and he is a douche nozzle and you are not a douche. Anyway, it just, it just shows you that social media may not be what we think it is, right? Exactly. Um, in, in terms of politics, voters want what voters want, and I really feel good about voters right now. I think they know what they want. Anyway, um, let's move on to the big story. Again, FCC Chairman Brendan Carr, the moron, has inserted himself in the 60 Minutes drama. I don't know why, 'cause he's supposed to be deciding on this. Carr posted on X about fired correspondent Scott Pelley after Pelley spoke to the New York Times. Responding to a comment about how Pelley was surprised he got fired, Carr, the moron, wrote, "One of the reasons why trust in media is low is so many legacy journalists are completely out of touch. You do not get away with that behavior in any run-of-the-mill job." Well, yes, Brendan, you moron. He was asking a basic question of why were people who had no reason to be fired got fired anyway. He should not be weighing in.

Neither should any of those people. Though Peli says CBS management's the ones out of touch. Let's listen to a clip from an extraordinary interview he did with a friend of mine, Lulu García-Navarro, at The New York Times. It was full of stuff. So let's listen to it.

Of course, we have to reach out to a younger and younger audience. But their argument about joining the internet age is just disingenuous. It's almost as if Barry Weiss and Nick Bilton were sealed in a time capsule in 1999 '90, and it just cracked open. They've just discovered the internet, and they're running around telling everybody how important it is. At CBS News, yeah, join the fight.

Anyway, I love his voice. It was such a good burn. We've been saying that. It's not the— everyone knows this. It's not new, fresh things. So I want to talk about this in a different way. I mean, I thought the interview was extraordinary and extremely damaging. That said, I don't know if something's going to happen about it.

But we had a great talk last night.

Scott called me and there's a business aspect to this I really wanna talk about. Obviously the interview was really a lot, including this idea that he put his hands on Nick, Nick Bilton, who was put in place to run 60 Minutes. A lot of controversy around him, which didn't turn out to be true. But this one executive, Tom, and I don't know how to, I can't pronounce his last name. Anyway, he was saying that he tried to manhandle Nick Bilton, which wasn't true. And then said, oh, okay, you didn't. Like, The lack of reporting on the behalf of CBS management is really quite striking. And Scott called them out, Scott Pelley, whose voice is fantabulous. But you had this really great take about business, and I'd love you to reel it out a little bit because I thought it was different than the typical those fuckers kind of thing, which in fact they are fuckers. But go ahead.

Yeah, I think if you just look at the industrial logic or lack thereof, you get to what's going on here, and that is this is a rare instance of broadcast media performing well. And so from an industrial logic standpoint, you just wouldn't fuck with it. And we use the analogy of performing open heart surgery on your best performing player.

I love that. I thought that was so smart.

Makes no sense, right? So why does this make sense? Because regardless of whether you like the Ellisons or not, David Ellison is a smart guy. His father is a brilliant business person. He just is. And they understand, they may not understand media or journalism, but they understand culture incentives and they vastly understand shareholder value.

I would say Larry does, but go ahead.

Fair enough. Although I would argue his son at least seems competent.

He's competent. He's competent. Not around media, but he's good at making Maverick, Top Gun.

But go ahead. So the question is, why would they, why would they fuck with something that's working? I mean, that's the question. So it becomes, all right, first off, And this is where I go to, while journalists and media are obsessed with themselves and think this is like an attack on democracy and journalism, I understand that the chill on journalism and the journalism is a key component of democracy. I'm of the camp that quite frankly, if the Washington Post and 60 Minutes go away, journalism's gonna be just fine. That's not to say we shouldn't be concerned. That's not to say this isn't another example of Trump trying to put a chill on journalism. I get it. I'm, you know, when you try and encourage taking vaccines off the market, I think that is a real existential threat to the health and wellbeing of Americans. I think if 60 Minutes were to go away, those people are gonna find amazing jobs and create reasonable facsimiles of incredible journalism as they've continued to produce at 60 Minutes.

May I just push back a tiny bit? Go ahead. That's not true. They are an important bit of the many fixtures and it's working. I do think it's more than that. And what Scott Pelley was asking, why are you firing competent people who who are doing a great job. And I do think they're important. I think it's important to have a top of the food chain and a lower part too. And it's sort of— so I don't— I do think fucking with The Washington Post is very damaging because of this, some of the stuff they do. And, and fucking with 60 Minutes, same thing. So go ahead.

And, and I believe that those journalists and their, their outstanding work and their willingness to take truth to power will find a ton of different vessels if The Washington Post and 60 60 Minutes is a construct, go away. I don't think it's a threat to journalism. Okay. As evidenced by what you're doing and hundreds of other interesting new companies are doing. Having said that, what's interesting here is just looking at it through a business lens. It doesn't make any sense to go up to Derek Jeter and say, we don't like you, we want to bench you. Or to— it's like benching Lionel Messi in the World Cup. It just doesn't make any industrial logic. And so if you go up the food chain, it's one of two things here. Either the Ellisons are so passionate about having a viewpoint that puts, puts forward a more conservative viewpoint that they're willing to take these risks and potentially kill Messi, right? Before the World Cup or whatever. I don't, and I don't think that's it. I think that the math is pretty straightforward here. I think the Ellisons, the owners of WarnerMedia, the new owners have decided there's more economic upside if they do Trump's bidding and potentially lose value at 60 Minutes.

It's not economically an important business to CBS. It might have a halo effect on the whole thing.

Sure, that's it.

But even CBS, the network itself, I think the Ellisons have done the math and decided that we would rather— there is more, and this is a problem with an autocracy, and this is a bigger indictment in our society. I think the Ellisons have done the math and say, we would rather risk killing a healthy player that's a small business and currying favor with a guy who can give us TikTok on a platter at 80% off.

Right. He already did that.

And I think he'll continue to do it as long as we curry favor with— And this is the problem. This isn't about the death of journalism. This is about an autocracy where oligarchs are made if you support the current administration. The Ellisons have done the math. Yeah, we'd like to hold on to 60 Minutes. But what's more important—

Or we don't care. I think don't care is more of it.

Yeah. A nice to have, we don't really care because the numbers here are so small. Where the numbers turn into tens of billions of dollars is if the president is on our side because he perceives us as being on his side. And if we have to throw 60 Minutes on the funeral pyre to show loyalty, so be it.

Yeah, it's really interesting when you said that. At first, I was like, oh, Scott, it's important. And then I thought, actually, when Tim Cook brought that golden statue, why'd he do it? The reputational hit was bad. And then he appeared at the Melania thing, right? It's such a reputational hit. I was like, oh, he invested $100 million here and got $50— like Elon giving money to the PACs, invested $50 million here. He got $500 million, billion here, or $5 billion here. And I was like, oh, it's a trade. And they don't mind taking the reputational hit. Same thing with Bezos. Why would he go yammer on so idiotically, right? 'Cause he wants something, right? I mean, that whole, "He's gotten more mature." Like, come on. Like, stop it. Like, you just saw that Kristen Welker interview. He looks like a giant baby, giant baby Huey. And I was like, "You're right. He gets— they get more money out the other side." The issue is they don't mind throwing out the really beautiful thing, right? Like, sometimes when you junk something that's just fine, but they're— that's what it is. And so it feels much more It is political.

It is political because I do think they're much more pro-Israel, et cetera, et cetera. But, and much more like anti-woke, which sort of feeds into their selections, editorial selections. But it is about like, they'll get more out of it. Now, what two things I'd love you to comment on. Look, Trump's at the very end of this. We're at the end of the, you know, the king is falling down, right? On a daily basis. He looks quite sick. Let's not pretend he doesn't look like he had a stroke or something. Something happened, uh, to him. And so it's at the tail end, you see the Republicans pushing back, you see the polling, which is really significant, even among female conservatives, male conservatives, farmers, like all his thing breaking down. Why would you double down on him right now? Because it seems like you'll get the reputational hit. Because afterwards, when the Democrats come in, they're not going to forget. And by the way, probably the attorney generals will file a suit. While we're taping this against to slow down the merger and it will slow down the merger. So why would you do it now? Like if you're as smart as Larry Ellison is and trust us when we tell you he's very smart, why would you do it?

It seems like the dumb bet right now.

Yeah, I don't think it is, Kara. Keep in mind the deal—

Tell me why.

The deal hasn't closed yet.

Right. It has to close.

Right. The deal hasn't closed. If Brendan Carr gets a call from Trump would say, "I'm having second thoughts about media consolidation." A deal hasn't closed. And Trump has been— has shown a willingness to violate all norms, not afraid of court battles. Maybe it gets overturned in court in a year or two years, at which point CBS continues to hemorrhage viewership. Trump can absolutely kill this deal. Trump can call Ellison and basically say, "I want you to cancel Big Bang Theory," and he would do it right now. And I'm trying to come up with a CBS show, like the new Matlock, whatever it is. And I think Larry calls his son and goes, "Kill this show." Because if this deal doesn't go through and it doesn't close, I mean, so one, he has very strong short-term incentive to be supportive of Trump. And two, they still have 2.5, you know, you still have 2.5 years left and nothing proves, I mean, think about all the guys that showed up that we mocked, all the tech executives from Satya Nadella to Altman. Did tariffs affect any of them?

No. Any of them? They got contracts with government, they got this, they got that. Oh, and— They got everything they wanted.

And Jensen Huang, I'm gonna take you to China and try and get you to sell chips. And now the Chinese are saying, "Fuck you, we're not gonna buy your chips." There has never been a return, not CapEx, not AI, not plant property equipment, like investing in Trump right now. That is what a good autocrat does. There you go, okay.

But what happens come November when the Dem— if the Democrats win the way they think, if they even win half of what they're going to win, there's, there's going to be hell to pay. Or maybe they don't think there is.

Here's the problem. Graham Plattner. Graham Plattner has had a series of really disturbing accusations against him by, by various women and the time. Okay. The problem is We apply a purity test to ourselves and to our candidates that the Republicans don't apply. And as a result, they feel safer. They're like, we threat, lock her up. Have you heard? We don't have chance of lock him up at Democratic. We're better than that. And I get it. I like that. But the reality is the incentives are the following right now. Get in with Trump, get your money. The Democrats are fucking pussies. And that was the wrong word to use.

That's all right.

The Democrats, they'll feel bad for us and they'll try and understand us and they'll haul us in front of Congress, fine. But the upside here is so much greater than the downside. We're dealing with an autocrat.

You're right, it's a risk assessment. I do make a little prediction here. We should probably move on in the thing, but I think the Democrats are much more less a pussy than you think.

I hope so.

I have talked to a lot of them and they're like, Well, let me ask you this.

Do you think, do you think they should replace Blattner right now so we have our, our high ground?

No, no, no, you know I don't. And I have an argument with my wife about it. No, I don't, I don't. I think the voters of Maine should decide. That's my feeling. I feel, I always feel like the voters should decide. And if they make bad decisions, they have to live with it, right? If they pick Pratt, they have to fucking live, live with it in Los Angeles. And I know the rest, everyone who didn't vote for him have to live with it, but I am, I'm a firm believer in voters. I just am, always. I always feel like they always get it ultimately. And then I think pundits and everyone else doesn't often get it. Sometimes they do, sometimes they're very canny. Um, but I just feel like, to me, you're betting on someone who's about to collapse.

And we've been saying that, we've been saying that for a while.

Look at him, look at him. It's going down.

Do you really think he looks that bad?

I'm just, look, I'm not talking about him. Yes, I think he looks that bad. He looks really bad. But that's not I was talking about. I'm not talking about death. I'm not like, whatever, he's, he's old, he's gonna die within 10 years, so whatever, it's gonna somewhere in there, somewhere in there. And, um, but the numbers— I'm looking at the polls, and a year ago I said I think his polling is going to collapse, and it has collapsed. And so that's what I'm looking at is voters. Voters don't like this shit, and I think they are sticking their chin out so far with all their nonsense. Why would you fire competent people? Why? It looks— and also it creates— listen, CBS's other executives are furious because it's ruining the CBS brand, which is a very successful— it's done okay in the network with all their old people shows. They're doing okay. And so I think you're starting to see leaks from, you know, there was one from this woman who was running CBS Entertainment. You sort of started seeing it from other news— you're just starting to see it. And if it's she couldn't— this could mess up the deal itself because of the heat on this on the other side, right?

It'll embolden more people from 60 Minutes to speak out. It'll embolden more stories. And let me tell you, folks, there's more shoes about to drop. I hear about everything. And so it's going to be a continuing leak, leak, leak. And if you remember the Chris Lick thing, and I just think David Zaslav's just quicker to fold, right? Or— but it took Jeff Bezos 2 years to fold on Will Lewis. But eventually, it's— It messes up the brand, and they happen to have other things. Now, Jeff just has The Washington Post, so he could hold out for 2 years. But Zaslav was starting to feel the pain elsewhere. And so that, to me, is the problem. So, and then David looks dumb, and David looking dumb to daddy is not a good thing for him. You know what I mean? Like, and so that's why I think there's a lot more at play here. And I do think the Democrats will extract something from them in a way. I don't think there is, as weak as you think they are. And from hearing from them, bygones is not in their vocabulary right now. It is, we will now be coming around and remembering what you did.

So maybe they won't do it, but that's the tone I get from them. So we'll see. Anyway, I really enjoyed your idea of what they're doing, and you're absolutely right. The business way to look at this.

Just to talk more about 60 Minutes. So 4 of the 7, I think 4 of the 7 anchors have left.

And the key executives, the editors, the key editors who you don't know their But critical.

That's really the heart and lungs. But the 75, what you call, staff, editors, junior producers, statisticians, data, none of them have left.

They can't leave. Let's be clear. They have jobs. There's not a, it's not a big market, so.

Right, and they have mortgages and all of that. I know exactly what the Ellisons did here. They called them and said, they called Leslie Stahl and said, Leslie, you're an icon. Things are tumultuous. We promise, we promise we'll let you do whatever you want. And by the way, if you just stick around another 12 months until things settle down, there's another $5 million bonus for you. That's what I would've done. And I'm sure that call took place. And then they called the 12 critical people, the rank and file, and said, look, tell everyone that when there's this kind of tumult and the top of the pyramid gets chopped off, there's a tremendous sucking sound upward. And they would be stupid not to hang around to see what additional opportunities emerge. And people will always think about themselves before they think about the brave new world of the attack on journalism. They have mortgages to pay, they have college funds. To fund. And this is what will happen. Just as we thought all the noise in social media was gonna dictate the mayoral race, all the noise around 60 is gonna come down to the following.

If the first 6 or dozen episodes in the fall are good, 60 will be fine. And if they're not, that thing will collapse under the weight of all this controversy. So it's gonna be about the product, full stop.

If you can make the product, 'cause you do need those correspondents.

And maybe they can't. You know more about this than I do.

Well, I know the people they're calling, 'cause I'm hearing from everyone they're calling, and none of them want to go there. They don't want to sell— They're calling some interesting people who are good, but all of them are like, "I'm not selling my fucking reputation with these clowns." Well, how do they get guests?

And also, I never miss an opportunity to make myself feel important. I was approached about a role at 60 Minutes.

And what did I say? I'd break your arm, correct?

Well, and I said, "No fucking way." I don't want to be— That's like the last thing. If you're— I mean, and quite frankly, why the fuck is Leslie Stahl staying?

Well, can I give a word on that and then we'll move on? I know Leslie really well. She used to come to all my conferences. She's really terrific. I've talked— she was trying an internet thing off a couple years ago and I helped her with it. She's not texting me back. Let's just say, Leslie, I've helped you a lot. I really feel irritated by the fact that you won't even text me back. But that's another issue. I think I predicted she would do this and everyone said I was wrong. But listen, This is the end of her career. She wants that retrospective of her career next year or the year after. She wants the party. She does have a loyalty to the place. She's been there so long. And so she feels by staying, she's protecting it. Like, at least someone's here to hold it back and watch them. My issue— and I think that's genuine. I do. I think it's genuine with her. She's like, you cut her open, she bleeds 60 Minutes, right? So I think that's in her DNA. Thing, and she wants that. Like, if she left now, there'd be no retrospective.

There'd be no end of her career. And I think she wants that. And from— that's from a sort of selfish point of view. From the other point of view, she thinks she can save it. She can at least protect it for the time being until she'll wait them out. My problem is they're going to go just around her. They're just going to go around her. And I don't think she realizes that, how much they're— as canny and smart and tough as she is, she doesn't have as much leverage by staying. And That is— I think she made a mistake, but I thought she would stay. So that's my take on it. So I don't know because I haven't talked to her. I'm glad you didn't go. Thank you. I would have not been happy about that.

Under the auspices of the latest episode of Don't These People Have Friends? Leslie Stahl is an icon. Leslie Stahl is 84. Between 1% and 2% of 84-year-olds work full-time. By the time you're 87, it's less than 1%. You know, Leslie Stahl may live another 20 years. She's gonna be working full-time for a matter of, you know, years, if not months. I mean, that's just, and I know that sounds ageist, I am an ageist and so is biology. She shouldn't be buying green bananas at this point.

Now. I don't think it's a good choice.

As a friend, a friend should say to her, Leslie, you put out the following memo. "I have loved and appreciated and feel blessed to have been a part of this organization. I am proud and did my best regarding my work here. It is time for me to leave." And everyone else would've filled in the blanks. In every fucking room she would've walked into for the rest of her life, she would've got a standing ovation. Instead, now, under some narcissistic notion that she's gonna be able to control what happens in every production meeting, Oh my God, how naive are you? She had a chance to put the world's greatest dot on top of an exclamation point at the end of a career, and she's missed it. This was the perfect, perfect exit to a storied career. I'm not— I'm not angry. I'm not shitposting her for staying. I'm shitposting her for not taking an unbelievable opportunity to put a Tiffany ribbon To put a Tiffany ribbon on the aquamarine blue box that was her Tiffany career. What a missed opportunity.

Goodbye, sir. Like that kind of thing.

Good day. Good day, sir.

Good day, sir. Can I ask you, I want you to say what they wanted you to do on 60 Minutes, which cracks me the fuck up. Because it's not to do the big interviews with Trump or do the investigative pieces where you dress up in a beer, just for people to know. What did they want from Professor Galloway?

To do one or more of those Andy Rooney segments.

Yeah. So you're Andy Rooney. You know what really bothers me about soda pop is—

And by the way, let me, let me be clear. I grew up watching 60 Minutes with my mother. Had someone called me 12 or 24 months ago and offered me that role, I would have just, I would have said, I'll pay you. What do you want? What do you want? What do you want me to do? I would have, that would have been, Literally, other than hosting a podcast with you, that would've been my crowning achievement professionally. And now I'm not gonna add to this chorus of unqualified people, this cosplaying journalist. I'm like, the last fucking thing I wanna do is wake up to social media after they hear that I'm joining, I'm having anything to do with this shit show right now.

Yeah. And you were scared of me, right? Were you scared of me?

Uh, not really.

Ish. Ish.

Ish.

I just would have yelled at you like, are you fucking kidding me?

No, no, no. I'm like—

You know what? Can I just say? You're better than that. That's how I feel.

And quite frankly, I think I like the people there more than you do. I don't have a, you know, I actually—

I like some of them.

Yeah. I like some of the personnel. But I'm like, this is the last fucking thing I want to be associated with right now. Yeah. Anyways, anyway, you're stuck with me, Kara.

Yeah, I know, I love it, I love it. You can do 60 Minutes things here and you can do them about penises, so you couldn't do it there. I'm just saying. Anyway, we're going to move on. Really interesting story, but I appreciate your business thing. I was so struck by it last night when you called me. Anyway, we're going to go on a quick break. When we come back, the SpaceX IPO approaches.

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Scott, we're back. I thought you did a great job sort of analyzing the, the the SpaceX IPO. It really helped me, and a lot of people were telling me that. But the company is expected to begin trading on the Nasdaq this Friday in what could be the largest IPO in history. A lot of moving parts. A couple things we've learned in the last few days. SpaceX has set its share price at $135, giving the company a valuation of roughly $1.77 trillion. You said it would be under $2 trillion. It won't be fast-tracked onto the S&P 500. This is a new development after the index decided not to change its rules for these mega-cap IPOs. Thank you. They probably got a lot of pushback from people. And there's more. SpaceX also made a major deal with Google selling off its seed core. Google will pay SpaceX $920 million a month over the next 3 years for computing power. That includes access to at least 110,000 NVIDIA chips. Elon was smart to grab those. This is similar to a deal that SpaceX recently made with Anthropic. So it's becoming an infrastructure provider, essentially. Google, which is already an investor in SpaceX— everybody is, by the way— is calling this a short-term timely agreement to ensure they can keep up with surging AI demand.

They will go get their own stuff later and they're not gonna rent it. Talk about what's happening now and what you see happening in the next— because it's the next week and the deal. And we're going to talk a lot about the IPO on Friday, obviously. But right now going into it, how are you looking at it?

It's just so interesting. And my judgment is clouded because I've been so wrong about Elon Musk's adventures in the market. And I haven't fully appreciated what a meme stock he is and everything he touches. So look, Alphabet agreed to pay SpaceX almost $1 billion a month for compute capacity from xAI Data Centers. What's interesting is that that they overbuilt and it ends up that's fine 'cause they can just rent the capacity out to someone else at probably a higher price than they'd originally anticipated. Like SpaceX's current multiple, it's going out at 94 times revenues. The deal would value a deal that would total at least, you know, $1 trillion in additional market cap from if you just valued this what it should trade at versus its competitors, even being generous. What does it matter for Alphabet? It owns this It owns a 6% stake in SpaceX, which it purchased in 2015. So, and they did this when the company was valued at just $12 billion. So 6% of a $1 trillion market cap is about $60 billion or more than 5x.

Yeah. And remember, remember when Yahoo had the Google stake? That was one of the big things they got out of it. Anyway, they had a big stake in Google.

By them agreeing to buy, purchase this compute, when you look at the multiple, for every dollar they spend on compute, they're technically getting 5 back in the increase in the value of their stake in SpaceX.

Right.

Yeah. So we talk about these circular deals, but this one looks like a no-brainer for Google. So look, I think SpaceX's multiple will deflate dramatically as revenues grow. But the point stands, you know, Alphabet has a vested interest in SpaceX's revenues going up. And then, And then look, I think in the last just 7 days, maybe 14, there has been a dramatic vibe shift. Oh, interesting. And that is this study that came out at MIT that said 95% of CFOs are stating that they're not getting the return they'd initially anticipated.

In AI.

In AI.

Yep.

I was on a webinar hosted by Section talking about AI, and the comments I would describe is whenever people come in and talk about the brave new world of AI, it's like a giant fucking eye roll. People are really, in the business world, are starting to sour on the brave new world of AI. And this won't be the same litmus test directly as Anthropic or OpenAI. And I'm curious if you sense this, but I sense a little bit of like, you know what? This is beginning to feel like bullshit. The job apocalypse everyone's been predicting is not here. The, the, the, you know, notion that this is going to change absolutely everything, the idea that we're going to have one-person companies that could be billion-dollar unicorns.

Right. Remember that one?

You know, I had the CEO of, of Lilly on. He said AI's ability to accelerate drug discovery is vastly overhyped. I just wonder if people are beginning to say, okay, this is beginning to feel a little '99. It feels like there's been a tangible vibe shift around AI in the last few weeks.

And then what— how does that— how does it affect the SpaceX IPO? Because there's Star— there's other businesses in here. Is it just because this is an AI IPO or—

Well, the AI that's got attached to it, as I refer to affectionately as a money furnace, is— I mean, there's no doubt he's— he's saddled— he's turned a great space business into a company hemorrhaging money. 'cause he's gonna try and fund and play catch-up in AI. What's interesting is he's, it looks like he's got a ripcord here in the form that he's now renting out his infrastructure. But nothing, nothing feels or says froth in a market like a 94 times revenue valuation.

Right, but is that Elon or AI? That's the question. Is it just the Elon-ness of it?

I think the answer is yes.

I think Elon.

Oh yeah, yeah. I think Elon plus AI plus rockets. Yeah. And the rocket business or the Starlink business is a great business.

Right.

But my God, 94 times revenue.

So what happens? Give me like the day of, the week after, and the 6 months after. Everyone is predicting trough after, like pretty quickly after, relatively quickly after, not immediately.

You know, I've gotten this so wrong, Kara, but I, people have called me and asked me to participate in the IPOs. I've got allocation. I said I wouldn't get near SpaceX, and if you do, I would sell on the first trade. I think SpaceX is about to hit a 10-year high on the minute it goes public, meaning it'll be all downhill from there. I just don't see how it just, even with Elon and AI and rockets, I don't see how it just—

And he's gonna put robots everywhere, cars that, you know, all the promises are still that, and they're tough ones. They're tough promises he's got.

100%. The one I'm most or least sanguine about or least pessimistic on is Anthropic 'cause the momentum's so dramatic there.

So you'd buy into that?

I would buy into the IPO. I'm not sure it'd be a long-term hold based on the valuations going at it.

Right. And OpenAI?

I think that's— I think if one of them struggles and could be a broken IPO, I think it could be OpenAI. I think the momentum is so negative.

Yeah. SpaceX is a conglomerate, so it's harder to tease apart. And Elon.

It's Elon. Investors— I mean, one of the reasons you might be seeing a decline in the crypto market right now is all of those people are selling to buy into the SpaceX IPO. I mean, you're also probably gonna see a decline in the larger market for tech stocks because I think so much capital is gonna be sucked up by these guys. But you, Elon has, look, it's a cult and it's the same. I wonder what's gonna happen to Bitcoin because that has a culty feel to it. And I think a lot of Elon stans are Bitcoin holders and are gonna fund their SpaceX purchases with sales of Bitcoin.

Right, right. So that's another thing. Yeah. So anyway, so we'll see what happens. We'll be talking about it on Friday. But so you say goes at it once, $135 and it drops? 'Cause they're, they're having some punitive stuff if you sell it too quickly too.

There was some of that. Well, there's all sorts of lockups that people are being asked to commit to. I think Elon and his banks will probably create enough artificial scarcity to manufacture a pop. But I, I think 6, 12, 5 years down the road, 5 years is tough. I wouldn't, I wouldn't get near this thing. And if you are, if you do get allocation, look at the first trade, consider getting out on the first trade.

And the index hurts it, right? The lack of being in the index funds now.

Well, that would've been additional demand out front, but you know, every IPO up until now has not been in the S&P. So technically that shouldn't hurt. And there was complaints about it being, you know, you were being forced to buy it if it went into the S&P 'cause of the people who hold—

Yeah, it's gonna be you too.

Index funds. It'll be super interesting, but, 94 times rev.

I know.

Okay. Amazon, incredible company. A lot of people think it's overvalued. What's it trade at? 4.5 times revenues.

I like that you like math still after all these years. Anyway, interestingly, speaking of what you were just saying, Donald Trump is looking into the government stake in AI companies. Oh, buy at the top. So American people can, quote, benefit from the success of AI. He says leaders of all the big AI companies are coming to the White House as early this week to discuss the idea. I mean, It's such a socialist thing. OpenAI and the White House are in ongoing talks about government stake according to CNBC. This is something that Sam Altman has been floating for a while. He needs the help, as you were just noting. Altman was in DC last week and met with Senator Bernie Sanders who's been pitching a similar plan because he's, you know, a socialist. Sanders is proposing a sovereign wealth fund creating a one-time 50% tax on all, on the stock of AI companies, giving the public a direct ownership stake. Talk to me about this 'cause I don't love it. I feel like I'm like, what? Like, I get, I get that, for example, the government gave a loan to Tesla when it was in trouble and didn't get anything back for it, and Elon got all the juicies.

But that's what the government is there for. And they got it. They got their loan paid back, but they didn't get a stake. And I think that was okay. But I don't know. What do you think?

It is very easy once you get elected and everyone thinks you're great and you have power to get— start thinking you can control industrial policy and start picking winners and losers. It is very tempting. That's socialism. You control the means of production. When you do that and you start believing you're better than the private market and the full-body contact violence of capitalist private markets, you end up with warehouses in Ireland full of unsold DeLoreans and Air France. It does not work. If you want to support an industry like the CHIPS Act, everyone gets the same opportunity and the same subsidies. If you want to support the EV market and you give tax credits and subsidies, because everyone's available to it. When you put a golden share into US Steel or invest in Intel, you have decided you're smarter than the market. You are always, always wrong. This is socialism. This is, this is cronyism. It never works for the economy. At the same time, Bernie Sanders is equally wrong. Taxes that are industry-specific don't work. They came up with the same nonsense idea around oil and gas when they were printing money in the '70s and '80s.

Because then what happens? Is Microsoft an AI company? If we start producing podcasts with AI, are we an AI company? Is Apple an AI company? We need a more progressive tax structure that taxes our most successful companies, whether it's Anthropic or whether it's Apple or whether it's Novo Nordisk or whether it's Eli Lilly. We need a more— yeah, but when you go industry-specific taxation doesn't work because then capital starts picking industries based on taxes, not where the greatest return or innovation is. It is bullshit populism going after a specific industry. It creates a ton of bureaucratic unnatural acts across capital allocation.

Why AI? Why not? Why don't we own like the hot dog franchise?

What about cigarette companies? Shouldn't we?

Yeah, I know. What else can we have? I love cigarettes. McDonald's. Americans like McDonald's.

Let's have a more progressive tax rate for McDonald's and Anthropic and OpenAI.

Yeah, why not others?

That's it. Industry-specific taxation. Government doesn't work. And if you wanna invest in native industries or orphan industries or industries that have strategic importance, fine. But when Donald Trump, a failed business person, gets into the business—

Like mRNA technology, which they took away stuff, like that's already getting a lot of private funding, but it needs government funding.

The CHIPS Act made sense. Yeah. It makes sense. But everybody gets access to it, right? Every company, you're not picking winners and losers. And so just as Trump is trying to pick winners, that is no better nor any worse than Sanders trying to pick losers and deciding what—

going to the White House to do because he needs the support, right? It gives him support, gives him a little bit of stable support, stable support.

The biggest bailout since the banking industry bailout will be the following, but it'll be positioned as growth. There will be some sort of government-backed debt offering or backstop for AI companies who can't afford the infrastructure spent they have committed to when it's clear these valuations are not going to hold up. And also Trump realizes the entire economy he has bet on AI. The biggest bailout that'll be positioned as a quote unquote growth opportunity for the US government.

The taxpayer will hold the bag.

Right. Trump will position it as, I'm a smart businessman. We have an opportunity to invest in this. It is going to be a bailout.

Bankers get everything. We'll be holding the bag.

100%.

We'll be holding the fucking bag.

I swear to God. We'll privatize the gains and socialize the losses because Trump thinks he's smart and thinks he's a good businessperson.

He always makes such bad deals. Oh, I just am like, no, no, no. Let them die. As you said, remember years ago, go. We're talking about the plane, we were talking about airlines. You're like, just let them die and something new will happen.

Just like you're saying about 60 Minutes. New dumb money will show up and say, I want to start an airline called, you know, Hooters. I mean, there's no shortage of people who, who, who desire to start airlines.

Hooters Airline would be good.

There was a Hooters Airline.

Was there?

Yeah, you didn't know that?

Did you fly?

There was a Hooters Airline.

What?

No, I've never, I've never been in a Hooters actually. I'd like to go.

I have been in a Hooters because the wings are very They're excellent, excellent wings. Actually, the ladies are really nice in the Hooters.

They do a great job. From what I understand, they do a great job.

They are very nice. The ladies of the Hooters are nice. I have— there's a wonderful story about a gay guy, a comic going into Hooters when he was— his father brought him there to try to man him up. And the ladies immediately understood what the kid was going through and were sweet to him. He said, "I will love Hooters people the rest of my life because my dad was trying to man me up and they understood that I was gay and made me feel wonderful and gave me delicious wings." Anyway, here's to the Hooters ladies. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Siri gets a makeover.

Support for this show comes from Teleport. Here's a finding that should stop every tech leader cold. Organizations most confident in their AI deployments have more than twice the security incident rate of those that aren't. 72% versus 33%. That's from Teleport's 2026 Infrastructure identity survey of more than 200 infrastructure security leaders. A data breach isn't just a costly endeavor, it can damage trust. The most frequent causes of data breaches are human error and compromised credentials. But in the AI era, agents that are granted broad privileges dramatically increase risk. Solution services like Teleport, an AI infrastructure identity company, provide an identity and access platform that is purpose-built for modern, highly automated environments. Environments which are now deploying agents into production. Teleport establishes a unified identity layer for humans, machines, and agents that is cryptographically backed, that enables agents to be controlled and contained with the same rigor that you apply to other actors in your infrastructure. Because in the new era of AI, the problem isn't agents, it's the privileges we're giving them. Download the free report at go.teleport.com/pivot.

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Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough Podcast. Each episode, I sit down with high-achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week, model, Sports Illustrated cover girl, and entrepreneur Ashley Graham talks about the time she almost quit. I called my mom and I said, Mom, I just— I'm not going to do this anymore. And she told me, no, you are going to stick this out. Your body is going to change someone's life. Every decade You're going to go through something different. So be really happy with who you are right now because things change. Check out Pretty Tough, new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app. Scott, we're back with more news. As we tape, Apple is planning to announce a Siri overhaul at its annual developers conference. Oh my God. You think? The new Siri features a chatbot chat-style app and uses Google Gemini technology and AI-powered web search. Siri will be able to understand personal data and analyze on-screen content, and users will be able to return to their prior conversations. The conference is the last of Tim Cook's tenure before he hands the reins to John Ternus.

They've been— there was a good story about how behind they were, you know, Tim saying they were behind on AI and not doing enough. I think Siri has been one of their worst things they've ever done. It's so useless. I was walking here from the subway. I was in Manhattan this morning doing some meetings. And I got to tell you, Scott, like, it couldn't call Amanda. Like, it can't do things. It sucks. Siri sucks. So, you know, and I'm not going to be happy that it just is workable at this point. I'm just— I find it useless. And I think Apple has really missed a boat here for many years, for decades even. Your thoughts?

Yeah, we've talked about this. I mean, it's right up there with the Cybertruck. Uh, for like the biggest product fails. And that's unusual for Apple. Um, it, it, the, the rebuilt Siri runs on a custom 1.2 trillion parameter Gemini model under a deal worth approximately a billion a year to Google. And it's a three-tier routing system that handles queries on device for simple tasks. Apple's private cloud for moderate requests, and Google's NVIDIA B200 GPUs are used for heavy reasoning. And they're claiming the new capabilities are multi-step commands, persistent conversation history synced via iCloud, and on-screen awareness. It's being launched as a standalone app for the first time, and they've delayed the overhaul twice. The original AI boss left the company before it shipped, and critics warned that Apple is surrendering AI to Google the same way it surrendered search and deepening the reliance on a competitor. I would argue it was a smart move because of the licensing deal. And John Ternus, you know, he might, he might switch direction and wanna put his, his mark on this thing. It's a big, it's a make or, I don't know if it's a make or break bet for Apple, but it's important because as of earlier this year, they were the only big tech company whose CapEx decreased from last year.

I'm not sure that's, that's a bad thing. But if you think about a market, I mean, I, I accidentally turn on Siri by hitting the wrong button on my phone. Phone 10 times a day, which means it is the most accessible AI in the world. If I'm constantly bringing up AI accidentally on my iPhone, that means it's the most accessible AI in history. And for them not to be figuring out a way to get some of that AI juju, you know, it feels like a missed opportunity, even if it means outsourcing all of it to someone else. They should be the front end. And Siri is arguably, at this point, I wonder if Siri needs a rebrand because it's come to be emblematic of something that just doesn't work.

It doesn't work. And I do put a lot of trust in Apple in terms of privacy. I'm not worried about interacting with it as much as I am, like you load up everything into AI and I don't. But I feel I trust Apple, but it's incompetent. It's like having, it's a bad assistant. I can't believe it took this long for for Tim to have this assessment. But, you know, one would imagine it's critical going forward, especially if they're going into glasses and things like that, you know, that you have this thing that just does what you ask it to do on a basic level. You know, there's AI in everything now, and so much of it is so bad. I do think— and it's a missed opportunity because they're so good at everything else.

Well, the best experience I've had with Apple AI happened this morning. I was working out, out. And as always, I was listening to my mix of ELO and REM and XS. And CapCut, for some reason, I have the app CapCut on my phone, and immediately it said, learn more about CapCut's editing features. And I'm like, and I just instinctively went, oh God, fuck off. And Siri responded, I won't respond to that.

Oh yeah, it does that when you curse at it.

It totally— I won't— it was chastising me, and I kind of made me laugh out loud.

When you call them stupid, when I I won't respond to that, which I do on a daily basis. It was like, I'm sorry you feel that way.

So I've been saying to everyone, I won't respond to that. Anyways, that's, that's the best experience with Apple I've had.

Anyway, good luck, Apple. Make it better. We have very low expectations that you will. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

So the 2026 midterms is shaping up to be an all-out brawl. But the biggest fight may not be between Democrats and Republicans, but over the congressional maps itself.

Gerrymandering is not a good thing. We don't like it. And then all of a sudden we're going out and telling people, vote for this.

So I'm in Ashland, Virginia, a small town just outside of Richmond, which calls itself the center of the universe. And that checks out because it's the center of the political universe, at least when it comes to the 2026 midterms. That's because Ashland sits in Virginia's 1st Congressional District, which is one of only about 35 or so that are actually competitive. That makes Virginia particularly important when it comes to the question of gerrymandering.

The gerrymandering is a major problem, but it's not like Democrats drew first blood with this one. Donald Trump doesn't think he should be held accountable by anybody, so he's trying to change the rules because he doesn't like the game.

We've shown what we're capable of. Now let's keep up the push through the midterms.

America Actually will be in your feeds and on YouTube every Saturday with an interesting interview in politics or culture.

Big news this week for all my Gordon Gekkos, my Robinhooders, my Claude Squad. Anthropic, which is newly the most valuable AI company in ze vorld, announced it would be going public. That news follows reporting that OpenAI plans to go public as soon as September., and that that news follows reporting that SpaceX, which also considers itself an AI company, will be going public in maybe just a few weeks from now. Welcome to the era of the Omega IPO. We are about to see millionaires, billionaires, and yes, probably even the world's first trillionaire created overnight. And yes, it's that guy.

This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy.

Chainsaw!

But all the tech bros who are gonna make all the money, they need our money way more than we need their products. And we're gonna remind you why on today's Explain from Vox.

I'm Seth Matlins. My new show Create or Destroy: Reimagining Marketing explores how every decision a company makes, not just the marketing ones, but the HR, IR, pricing, org design and planning ones, the ones most don't consider marketing at all, contribute to either creating value or destroying it. Each week I sit down with CMOs, CEOs, founders, cultural thinkers, the people building, breaking, and reimagining how businesses grow or don't for conversations about what creates value and what destroys it. It's a business show. It's a marketing show. Creator Destroys, the show that argues. They've always It's Always Been the Same Thing, from the Vox Media Podcast Network and The Wisdomist Company. New episodes drop weekly on YouTube and your favorite podcast app.

Okay, Scott, some wins and fails.

You go first.

Okay. The win, I was just struck by this. There's all these movies that people are going to the movies for, Obsessions and Backrooms, which is started on YouTube-y kind of things, but they're wonderful. I think people really like 'em. I don't think just 'cause they start on YouTube they have to be bad. But domestic box office crossed $1 billion last month, a number not seen since before COVID which is interesting. And that's without a Marvel movie, which I think is nice. There's a lot of really interesting things out there that are doing well. Lots of different interesting movies. The big winners right now are the Michael Jackson biopic, Michael, which I have not seen 'cause it doesn't include some other stuff about him I think needs to be there. And The Devil Wears Prada 2 starring Kara Swisher, of course, But there's, it's just nice. You're seeing a lot of that. And I do, I've noticed I've gone to the movies recently. I know you don't, but I hadn't. And now I am 'cause I wanna see them in the movie theaters. And there's a couple of movies I do wanna see in the movie theaters, including the next Top Gun.

David Ellison, I think you do. And let me pay you a compliment because I never do. You make a marvelous Top Gun movie and I like your Star Trek work and Mission: Impossible. My fail is the 60 Minutes thing 'cause it's so unnecessary and stupid. And I know reporters, I agree with you, can be like a little bit, you know, you know, self-serious and pompous and stuff like that. In this case, they really are right. And it's not— they really are right. This is so dumb. And if they can't answer the question, why did you fire competent people? If you can't actually even answer it internally, there's something wrong with you. And at the same time, my one favorite phrase that I'm using a lot now, and poor Nick had, when he was leaving with that fraught meeting with Scott Pelley, he was, he said, as he was leaving, he sort flounced out because he was getting fried by Scott, and Scott is a tough guy. He said, "Enjoy the bagels!" Some people from 60 Minutes said they're gonna make secret t-shirts called "Enjoy the bagels!" exclamation point. And I just enjoy that, but I don't enjoy any of the rest of it.

I don't. I think it's sad and it's unnecessary and stupid. So anyway.

I like it.

Enjoy the bagels, Scott.

There you go. Enjoy the bagels. Yes. So look, my win is the death of higher education has been greatly exaggerated. Applications are up, but that's not my win. My win is our great public universities.

Mm-hmm.

One of the most underreported stories in America right now, I think, is that the market is finally disciplining higher education. And that is families are waking up and realizing that paying half a million dollars for a bachelor's degree is a luxury good masquerading as an investment. And applications to our flagship public universities, which are a much better value, are exploding. The University of Texas at Austin received more than 90,000 applications, up 25% year on year, while applications at places like the University of Virginia, University of Michigan have surged to record levels.

Oh, wow, my son's there. Alex is there.

The university, my alma mater UCLA, gets 160,000 applications. They get the number of a small city. And why are they doing this? Because we're coming to an uncomfortable truth, and that is after your first job, you know, people care that you got into a good school, but they don't care if it's a good school or quote unquote an elite school. They just wanna know that you went to a good school. And they also care whether you can just do the work.

They're also great schools. Let me just say for Michigan, it's substantively less expensive than Louis School.

UC San Diego.

Than NYU, I'm sorry to tell you. Substantively.

University of North Carolina. Yeah. I mean, these are outstanding schools that guess what those—

It wasn't cheap. Can we just point out it wasn't cheap, but it was substantively more, less expensive.

It was less expensive. I'm not saying it's a good value. I'm saying it's a much better value. It is. And the ROI gap that you're referring to is staggering. At many flagship state schools, an in-state student can graduate with tens or even hundreds of thousands less debt than access and access comparable employers, alumni networks, and graduate school opportunities. You know, the elite schools have spent 30 years turning themselves into luxury brands, and the public flagships spent 30 years building capacity, research, and outcomes.

Did you see what I sent you? The numbers for those elite schools have gone up like over $100,000 each for each year. It's crazy.

That is crazy. Yeah. So look, the new The new American dream isn't getting into Harvard, it's getting rejected by Harvard and then going to Michigan or Texas, landing the same job and using the quarter of a million dollars you saved as a down payment on a house. And I shitpost higher ed all the time because I think me and my colleagues have been drunk on scarcity and reflect this dangerous trend towards rejectionism where we feel good when we turn away 90% of our applicants, similar to a head of a homeless shelter writing that he or she turned away 9 and 10 people last night. We are public servants, not Hermès bags.. But I do think our great public universities are doing their level best. You go to the University of Wisconsin at Madison and you see exactly what you should see. It's not, it's not, it's not the Ritz-Carlton, Carlton Madison. The buildings are a little tired and haggard and there's thousands of students floating in and out of their classes. And it's a bunch of middle-class kids from Wisconsin and Minneapolis who are not freakishly fucking remarkable. Some of them were captain of the class team, most were not.

Most are socially conscious, most have not figured out a freshwater startup to bring potable water to Rwanda. They're just good kids looking for great futures. A lot of our public universities are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. And folks, when you hear someone saying, "Oh, our daughter, we're thinking that she doesn't need education," because of AI or higher ed, that means she just got a 22 on the ACT. Higher ed has never been more important. Critical thinking, social responsibility, getting along with others, relationships, getting your heart broken, breaking other hearts. If you are one of the one-third of American public that has access to higher education, trust me on this, it is a really solid plan B, especially if you can go to one of our great public universities who are continue to follow their mission.

Can I put in a little plug for public schools in general? My kids are old enough. Them public, my little kids. And I have to say, I feel so good about them and they're great and they're doing really well.

I went to public school, kindergarten through graduate school, and the generosity of California taxpayers and the vision of the Regents of the University of California are literally why I'm here with you now. And $7,000, my total tuition, first off, acceptance rate at UCLA, 74%. I was one of the 26% that didn't get in, but I reapplied and they let me in 'cause they had that kind of capacity and bandwidth. My total tuition, 5 years undergrad, 2 years graduate school, $7,000. I showed up to UCLA with a, like a 1982 Volkswagen Rabbit and $300. And I got through all 5 years and all 2 years of graduate school with no money, with student jobs and $15,000 total in debt.

Amazing. Amazing. And now they want you to be Andy Rooney, which—

There you go.

Anyway, I really appreciate it. That's a great one, Scott. Is that your fail? That's your win.

What's your fail? That's my win. Oh, thanks. My fail is Ferrari's electric car.

Oh, yeah.

This is a rare misstep from one of the world's great brands. I feel like Ferrari announcing an EV is like Maker's Mark, my favorite whiskey brand, announcing it's launching bottled water. It might make sense. It might even be profitable, but something important just died at the Ferrari factory.

People are mad at Ferrari. People are mad.

Well, for God's sakes, nobody spends a half a million—

for people to not know, right?

It's like tech's ruined fucking something else. Nobody spends $500,000 on a Ferrari because it's efficient. They buy it because it makes irrational noises that trigger a primal masculine, wonderful instinct in the male brain. The engine isn't a feature, it's the product. And luxury's about scarcity, emotion, and theater. And an electric Ferrari is becoming a very expensive appliance. Nobody puts a poster of an appliance on their bedroom wall. No, nobody wants to give you a random oral sex 'cause you have a hot appliance, maybe a Sub-Zero, but only if you own the home around it. Anyways, don't know how I got here. The challenge, the challenge isn't engineering. Every competent automaker can build a fast EV. The challenge is replacing 80 years of Italian heritage built around noise, vibration, and mechanical drama with software. So them going electric Electric is like—

I was gonna say it looks like a Honda.

Well, it's like Rolex launching a smartwatch. It might sell, but you've confused the source of your value proposition. This is one of the great brand mistakes of 2026.

You're right. It really, even I looked at it and I was like, "Nah, not a pretty car." And Ferrari be pretty. Like, you know what I mean? It was like so simple. Yeah, I think it was a Johnny Ive misstep in that regard. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show. Show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, I did a show about sports, and in this case, the World Cup. This week on On with Kara Swisher, I'm talking about the World Cup, which kicks off later this week with the US as one of the co-hosts. I talked to a panel of experts, including New York Times sports correspondent Tariq Panja. We talked about the crazy ticket prices and also the fears that ICE will ramp up enforcement, among other things. Let's Gleason.

A lot of those people will be soccer fans, will be football fans as we call them here. They'll be coming from all over the world or be in the United States hoping to go to games. I remember last summer the US hosted the Club World Cup and there were Brazilian teams there, for example. And I talked to some fans of Flamengo, which is Brazil's most popular team who were living in Boston. Now they were going to go in convoy to watch the games last summer. And at the last minute they thought, hang on, this might not be a good idea. We don't wanna be so visible driving in this big convoy of Brazilians to this soccer match.

It was really good. And guess who asked the question? Scott Galloway. He asked a good, they love your question. You'll like the answer, Scott. I appreciate it. Yeah.

But you talking about sports is like Greta Thunberg reviewing steakhouses.

I just, I mean, it's a good, it's a good, you know, they, I let them talk. I just ask questions.

I'm sorry. It's like a cat breaking down the Westminster Dog Show.

It's just— I tried.

It's like RFK talking about vaccines. It's literally the world came off its axis when you were—

I tried. I think I did a good job. I did. I can't do it again.

I think it would be easier for a nun to review OnlyFans. I just—

Anyway, you helped me a great deal and gave a good answer.

I really appreciate it. You called me and you said, You said, you said, you have to do me a solid. And I thought it was gonna be something big. And you're like, I'm interviewing the head of FIFA, you or someone, you have to ask a question. Yeah. Yeah.

Some reporters on the World Cup.

Yeah. Like I can do that easily. By the way, ticket prices. I'm obsessed with the World Cup. I went to Russia, I went to LA in '94. I went to Russia, I went to Qatar. I'm going to this one. Granted it's the final, but category 1 final seats, which are good seats. But to go to the final, The ticket price, the face value, is $38,000.

I know, but then it's like 100 and some.

Ah, go England! It's coming home, Kara.

It's coming home. It's gonna be Spain, they said. They say Spain is the one.

Spain's amazing.

No, they said Spain's gonna win. They said, yeah, the kid. They said Spain. All of them agreed Spain was gonna win. All of Spain. And I had no— I was like, okay. No, they said Spain. Anyway, anyway, and I don't even know what that means. Oh, and I know there's some new player there, young player. And this is the last thing for Messi and some other person. Who was the third?

Ronaldo and also Harry Kane.

This is their last show, right?

Correct? Well, they said the last time, but it looks like, this does look like you have some—

Changeover.

Changeover. But you also have Mbappé, you have—

Oh no, now we're talking about sports.

The gentleman you referred to as Lamine Yamal, who was scoring goals at the age of 17. I took my son to a game. And I looked at him, and I felt bad. I'm like, in a disparaging way, and I'm like, "That kid's younger than you." I'm like, "You better get something going on." I'm like, "That kid's younger than you." That's enough sports talk. That's enough sports talk.

That's enough for Cara, okay?

Oh, wait, I'm sorry. He joined FC Barcelona at 16.

Okay, go find another friend for this. No, Cara doesn't care.

The lesbian doesn't care.

Oh, my God.

He's literally the only unicorn to come out of here.

Europe.

He is the European unicorn.

His left foot—

he's carrying a nation of 48 million people on his left foot.

Oh my God, you're not— you're literally— you keep talking. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Enjoy yourself this week, Scott. You have the SpaceX IPO and the World Cup. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

Today's show was produced by Lara Newman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. And Aaliyah Jackson engineered the episode. Thanks also to Dubrow's Miss Severin, Dan Shalon, Nishat Karraz, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for a breakdown of all things tech and business.