Transcript of Comcast Splits, OpenAI Weighs IPO Delay, and Buttigieg Targeted

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Can I just tell you, I love the word vulgar. I love the word vulgarities. You are vulgar, sir! Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Scott, they just did a profile on me. The AP did. You don't want to hear it.

And who did they call?

You. You and Gavin Newsom, two men, white men I annoy all the time. And also Tom Tillis. All white guys. Well, it's funny.

When people meet us, they mistake like us from one another, me and Governor Newsom. Yeah.

Yeah. Except for the hair part.

Yeah. Except for the handsome, tall part.

Handsome, dreamy.

Yeah.

The dreaminess.

None of that.

Let me read the description of our relationship. I did not put him up to this. "She and Galloway have developed a strong, if unlikely, chemistry in which his penchant for vulgarities can make her seem almost highbrow." It reminds me of—

Coco Chanel has a great— quote. She says, "The opposite of luxury is not poverty, it's vulgarity." And so you're Coco Chanel.

I am Coco Chanel. No, I'm not. I'm not a Nazi. You're Coco Chanel. Can I just tell you, I love the word vulgarity.

The Lady Nazis. Sorry, I had to do that.

The Lady Nazis. I love the word vulgarity. Vulgarity.

You know what I find? You know what's most shocking?

You are a vulgar sir.

You know what's most shocking about the vulgarity is that I think women like it more than the men. I get more positive feedback on the dick jokes from the women than the men.

Really? I get a lot of, "Ugh, and I like him." And then I get that. That happens a lot.

That, by the way, that piece for the AP, that was, I mean, I don't wanna call it a puff piece 'cause AP doesn't really do puff, but it was pretty complimentary, yeah.

It was. I'm a power broker.

Oh my, oh, that's right. They made it sound like you're the new kingmaker. You're gonna decide.

I guess.

By the way, who's gonna be the next president? 'Cause according to AP, you get to decide.

The nano bubbler. Yeah, there you go. Lincoln Memorial. 'Cause it can fix the algae.

Yeah.

I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Who shall I select?

I don't know.

Among the many. Fine people of the country. Yeah, I would pick Mark Cuban, honestly, I would. Really? Yeah, I would. I would like that because I'd get to go to the Lincoln Bedroom largely.

I don't think business people should be president.

Oh, you're right. Maybe he wouldn't be good. Who would we pick? Pick a celeb.

Well, I mean, a magic wand, anybody?

Yeah, yeah.

I don't think you can get through the Democratic primary, but in terms of pure intellect, served his country, I would pick Mayor Pete.

Mayor Pete. I'm doing an event with him, Oh, we're gonna talk about him lately. I love that guy.

I know, I know. I just, I love high IQ people. I think at some point smart, smart intelligence has to make a comeback in the Oval Office.

He would be, he would be a good—

There's a lot of good, there's a lot of people I'd like to be president. I'd love Governor Newsom, Governor Shapiro, Governor Pritzker.

Is there any Republican you like?

I think Ambassador Haley is quite talented.

If she would stop sucking up. If she would just be her own person.

Well, there's no way to survive. Come on.

I know, but—

There's no way to survive that orbit.

I think there's a move for someone who does resist.

I agree.

Interestingly, oddly enough, someone who's called an obese, I thought when he finally got his balls, Tom Tillis was really smart and very good business person, really sharp. He was actually very supportive of gay rights, oddly enough, in the state. Yeah, I agree. If I had picked that person, someone I disagree with a lot, but Mike Gallagher, I was always impressed with. Really? Although we totally disagree. He had some really gross gay issue stuff. But like smart people, smart people, smart is what we're talking about. Smart, right?

Yeah. I mean, have you ever wanted Romney to be president more than— Yeah. I don't know. I think there's a lot of, I think there's some talented Republicans. They've been benched and kind of shoved off to the side. And also just on an objective level, and I realize I'm not objective, but there's some objectivity here. I think the Democrats have an outstanding— Ossoff is giving great Camelot energy right now. I think Mark Kelly doesn't have kind of the rizz of a president, but he'd be an outstanding president.

Vice president too.

He'd be an interesting vice president. There's a ton of—

Secretary of Defense. That's what they should do for him.

Oh, 100%. He'll be in the cabinet.

That would be so good.

He'll be in the cabinet. As long as the governor gets to appoint the next senator.

Anyways. Anyway. I don't know. I vote for the vulgar Scott Galloway.

There you go. A chicken in every pot, a Cialis in every cupboard. Oh my God. Galloway 2024.

If you thought Grump was crispy, get ready for us.

I'd have Patrick, my male escort, in the Lincoln Bedroom just for, hello, lady. I'd open a dispensary. You wanna see a UFC fight? I'm opening a dispensary on the East Lawn and the West Lawn.

Yes, it's true. And I would like, I would have the nano bubbler business everywhere. I'd be bubbling nanos everything. I don't even know what that is. Let me just tell you, nano bubbler for president. Anyway, we got, we've got so much to get to today. What else is going on, Scott? Where are you, London?

I'm in London where it's down to 72, but it's really interesting. When it's 70, when it's 78 in Southern California, it feels pleasant, a light breeze. When it's 78 here, it feels like Africa.

You didn't like that. Yeah, you didn't like it there.

It is so hot.

That was hot as fuckity fuck in France.

And the metaphor for the UK is the following. I have air conditioning, except when you need it, it doesn't work. If it's 65 degrees, I can cool my house to 55. But once it gets above 80, it just doesn't work.

Oh, wow. They're not good with the air conditioning there. Get good with it because every summer it seems worse and worse. I mean, they're ovens, those apartments. They really are. They're really.

France, last week France was the hottest place on Earth. It's because the dog was wearing shorts.

You were by the ocean, but in Paris it was very hot. I am headed to Vermont where it's going to be really hot here. Here, it's going to be hot there. It's going to be hot all across the East Coast this week. This heat stuff is really something.

It is really something.

Yeah. We got to really think hard about what we're doing. And by the way, data centers, no. Anyway, we've got a lot We have a lot to get to today, so let's dig in. There's so much news. Scott even participated in the group chat. He was like, "There's too much news. What's going on?" But actually his selections were correct, but 'cause the first one is something I think I was a little, was I surprised? Comcast is spinning off NBCUniversal and Sky into a separate publicly traded company. The new NBCUniversal will include NBC, the Universal Film Studio, theme parks, and Sky. This is the satellite service they have in Europe. Comcast keeps Xfinity internet and wireless, so it's back to, Square one, I guess. The market liked it. Comcast shares jumped 21% in pre-market trading Monday morning. It's not a totally clean break. Comcast will hold a roughly 20% stake in the new NBCUniversal. I think they still have a big stake in MSN now too. And the deal's expected to close in about a year. There's a catch though. Analysts say, well, the spinoff gives NBCUniversal more freedom to do deals. It leaves Comcast's broadband business more exposed at a time when cable is already under pressure.

So talk about this. The people they're putting in place are very good executives. But does NBC now, now remerge with MSN now, or what? I don't know. You need to explain this to me. I really didn't quite understand why they're doing it now. What the troubles they're seeking. I know they had looked at buying Warner at one point. So could Netflix buy NBCUniversal? There's a lot there. There's a lot at those studios. So thoughts?

So this is why companies conglomerate. The board who decides the CEO's compensation hires a firm called Towers Perrin because compensation is the hardest part and one of the most important things that a board does. And because boards don't want to do any work, they pay this firm Towers Perrin $200,000 or $300,000, and they come in with a survey. And the survey says on a scale of 0 to 100, 50 being the average compensation, and they look at the industry and the size of the business. And so if you're running a bank that does 10 billion a year in business, 50% might be 3 million a year. But if you're running a bank that does 80 billion in business or whatever, then the average compensation is 20 million. So the incentives and also the ego and also the testosterone in the penis in the midlife crisis all lead—

Penis.

Incentives for the CEO to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And sometimes there are real synergies around different businesses, but almost always not. Typically what happens is you end up with a Frankenstein. And so the market, it gets to a point where you have these Frankensteins of businesses that have no synergy. And what the market—

Can I change the matter? It's a turducken.

A turducken, thank you for that. And what the market has a tendency to do is it looks at the shittiest business 'cause it says there's no synergy here. And it says, okay, New York Times, you own 17% of the Boston Red Sox and the 7th tallest building in America. This is how much the building is worth. This is how much the Boston Red Sox are worth. But instead, we're gonna look at your shittiest business, your regional newspapers, which traded 4 to 5 times EBITDA, and we're gonna assign that multiple to the entire business because they don't give you any credit for the stuff that's working really well. So the disposition of assets becomes accretive to shareholders. And in this case, you have a media business that's strong and growing while the connectivity business is shrinking. And what they do is shareholders assign the multiple on the connectivity business to the strong and growing business. Last quarter, the media division and get this, reported a 40% increase in revenue to nearly $12 billion for the quarter. Theme parks grew 24%, media grew 61%, and studios grew 21%. And over the same period, the connectivity division shrunk revenues 3%.

So what you have is that—

So it's connectivity that's not as—

That's right. Residential connectivity shrunk about 4% while business connectivity grew 6%. So what happens is if you split these things apart, you have one company connectivity business, which is a mature business that's in structural decline, but still spends off a ton of cash. And then you have a growth business, when it becomes a pure-play growth business, gets a much higher multiple. And the result is a stock that was up 25% based on these two companies that have more focus.

So what happens to each of them? Is there, like, look, you have MS, they split off MSNow, and now it's trying to create its own little new division and doing well, for what it is, right? It actually has seen some growth under those executives. And then you have the media business that has, by the way, there's some fine executives at the media part.

It's a very well-run company.

Donna Langley, I think Mike, or Mike, anyway, it's a very smart group of people. Whenever I meet them, I'm always so impressed. But they weren't able to participate in the Warner thing, for example. And I know it was frustrating because they were actually the natural owner for that.

Agreed.

You know, I was like, of all the things, I was like, Paramount, they're a bunch of incompetence. Netflix is too big and gonna get in trouble. Comcast was the perfect buyer for that, you know, in terms of quality people and the theme parks and everything else. So what happens here? And the other thing, just as a side note, the other two things, could Netflix come in and do something here? I think it's too much. Disney CFO has signaled they intend to keep the linear and streaming businesses together for now. They don't own a cable division and not split it. It off. So they're keeping those together, the studios and the streaming and everything else. So is the strategy— seems like it's the same strategy if they're going to hold on to NBC, Universal Film Studios, theme parks, and Sky, right? So there— so that's a little connectivity, I guess. But thoughts on that? What happens to each of these parts? What happens to the cable parts? And then what happens to the I mean, could like Elon come in and buy the cable parts for Starlink? Or there were rumors of him buying one of the phone service businesses.

Thoughts?

Well, I mean, it's scary, but with a $2 trillion market cap, there's very little he couldn't buy right now.

Right.

So Versant, their stock is down 21% since the spinoff.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know what happens. Okay, first off, Disney for the time being is holding onto its cable assets. That means they have— no one's offered the price they want. It will make sense for them to shed that business because the parks, the IRL business, the parks is an unbelievable business. So this is all a long-winded way of saying I'm not sure what they're gonna do, but they have simplified and created pure plays. 'Cause here's the bottom line. If you put yourself in the shoes of an investor, they don't need the Roberts family to diversify for them. CEOs love diversification. Why? Okay, my connectivity business is down, but my parks were up 24%. In other words, they sleep better at night because they can grow 6, 8, 10% a year and not worry that, oh, fuck, I got a problem at MSNBC. Whereas this is the thing though, investors, I don't need you to diversify for me. I can buy Versant stock if I think it's really cheap. I can buy the Park's business stock if I think it's a grower and I want growth. But CEOs' incentive and compensation, and quite frankly, wanting to sleep at night and be bigger and badder, leads to an agglomeration or a conglomeration that eventually the stock market throws up on.

And that's what's happened here. And you know what the next really— there's a stock right now that if it broke up, it would triple. You know what that company is?

What's that? What is—

I'll give you a hint. I went to their dinner last Sunday night.

I don't know. What is it? Maybe you've mentioned it before.

I'll give you another hint. VR, but only subscale.

Oh, Snapchat.

If Snap spun their Spectacles group, the stock would triple or quadruple.

Oh, interesting.

That is the most, that is the greatest unlock waiting.

He loves them Spectacles though.

Well, that's the problem. It's a single, it's a dual-class shareholder and Evan controls the company.

Yeah, he loves them Spectacles.

Do you realize that I think Meta gets about $400 in market cap per user? Snap gets 17. Wow.

Yeah, you're right. He should get rid of the Spectacles.

If they spun and did a deal with Xiaomi or something, if they spun the Spectacles group and it was just a pure play social media platform, rocket ship.

Interesting. Ooh, I like that idea.

Get this. Do you know how much the stock is off the last 5 years?

A lot. A lot. Yeah.

93%.

Yeah. It's crazy.

93%. A pure play 500 million people a day social media network that has the most attractive user base for advertisers in history, that is people under the age of 25. You get rid of this weeping sore called the Spectacles unit that is subscale. Rocket ship.

All right, what happens to each of these div— so what, there's, there's Versant, obviously Warner's is its own little nightmare, although there's rumors that CNN will get spun off. With Rob Bonta and the California Attorney General. But what happens to each of these divisions?

Well, I think, I think the media and parks business has real synergy because if you put out a Harry Potter film, you can have a Harry Potter ride, right?

Yeah, right, right, exactly.

The connectivity business should be run.

They do. They do indeed.

They just get, they just get, they just get focused. Now in terms of Versant and the cable assets, those are declining businesses, but those can be amazing businesses. You go Yellow Pages and that was, This is the weakest flex in the world. I was on the board of the world's largest Yellow Pages company and all we did was just go around the world and buy other Yellow Pages companies and basically hold onto the salespeople, get rid of everybody else, and they're cash machines. And that's what you're gonna see. It doesn't make CNN, CNN should go into Versant and ABC should sell their shit. They need to consolidate the backend on these cable properties and that's what they'll do. And they'll still be good businesses, they'll just be in decline.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. They could buy, they could be the largest small player, right? It'll do well. It'll do well for a long time.

Well, they're hugely profitable businesses.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll be interesting. I wonder if they'll bring Versant back. Will they? Why would you? Why would you want them?

No, I don't think so. Again, the story has to be clean, right? I mean, Alphabet's learned their lesson. They're gonna spin Waymo. Waymo's already spun, I guess. It's an independent company.

Why didn't Sky stay with the cable business??

That's the correct question. I don't know.

That was the one that stuck in my head. Yeah. So it'll be interesting.

Yeah.

'Cause they do, you're right. Theme parks, the film studio, NBC. I'm not sure where that fits in exactly. A broadcast network. I guess it just—

But Comcast and Hearst are the most underrated management teams in media. They're just very smart people who consistently do the right thing for shareholders. They're aggressive, they're smart, and they're totally under the radar. Like they, They don't want, they don't want their CEOs getting in trouble or making earnings doing drugs.

They also couldn't play in the Warner thing. I remember I went to the Wicked premiere and I ran into a bunch of them and they were like, we are the obvious right owner. I was like, oh, I know, but you're not getting it 'cause Richie Rich over there and the crazies at Netflix can't, you can't beat them, right? You can't beat either of those companies. But I think this does give 'em a cleaner shot at buying stuff up. You know, there's all kinds of things for sale, like Lionsgate. There's all manner of stuff for sale in Hollywood. So we'll see what happens. You're gonna see a lot of M&A, as Scott Galloway says. Anyway, interesting move by Bryan Roberts, who I really like a lot, I have to say. He's a classy guy. Everyone over there is classy. They're a classy gang. They're very competent.

They're from Philadelphia, which means they've killed people. That's all I know. I'm sorry. Anyone who's— any family that is self-made billionaires in Philadelphia, there's definitely people buried in the foundation of a building of that size. Sky Tower.

You know why I have a good feeling for Brian Roberts is because I was working for Murdoch and then I went over to Comcast and it was such a pleasure. Let me just tell you, it was— I went— it was such a different personality, although Rupert was more fun at a party. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, why OpenAI might delay its IPO. We're all tech this week.

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Scott, we're back. OpenAI is reportedly considering delaying its IPO until next year, according to New York Times. The company has been planning to go public as soon as the third or fourth quarter of this year. Valuation appears to be one of the sticking points. Sam Altman is reportedly holding out for a $1 trillion— well, they all want this. The company was valued at $850 billion back in March. $850 billion. There's also some hesitation in light of SpaceX IPO, which is sort of bumpity, which has been trending downward after the sky-high debut, though doing a little better as we record. News of the possible delay led to a tech sell-off, stock sell-off with shares of Oracle, CoreWeave, and SoftBank all falling. And there's a possibility that Anthropic is breathing down their neck that they may delay too. There was some chatter about that. So is it important for them to wait? As you talked about, the money is getting sucked out of the system and their financials leaked a few weeks ago with losses increasing nearly 8x in 2025. Spending hitting $34 billion. It's not the greatest story in the world. Thoughts? And of course they've got Anthropic right in front of them, not breathing down their neck, right in front of them.

They're riding behind it.

I think this is, I think this is not systemic or I think this is an individual thing. And that is, I believe that Anthropic is still gonna get out. This is what I call the great flippening.

Flippening. Is that a word you made up? Is that a vulgar word you made up?

Flippening. Yeah, there you go. There you go. In the Lincoln Bedroom tonight, come watch flippening.

It does sound like a sex act, doesn't it?

There you go.

Flippening, what would that be?

Well, I feel as if I need to use my safe word right now. Maybe. Anyways, the great flippening.

I laugh at that every time. It's good. He's said it hundreds of times to me and I laugh every time.

Go ahead. So Q4 of 2025, OpenAI is the dominant leader. Right now, Anthropic is the— we've never seen Avis overtake Hertz this fast. This isn't even Pepsi overtaking Coke. It's like RC Cola one morning is the market leader. And I think Anthropic gets out, but I think OpenAI, if they were gonna have to show their wares or open their cupboards, there was just gonna be evidence everywhere that Anthropic is eating their lunch. And I talked to a lot of CEOs about AI And a company I'm an investor in, Section, talks, it does all this, helps companies upscale around AI. What they're seeing is the following, this quote unquote blame the model. And everyone's blaming OpenAI and swapping them out for Anthropic, believing they're gonna get a much greater ROI. So I think that basically if, when we look back on the great drawdown that will be AI valuations, that is I think gonna happen in the next 12 months, this will be seen as a real crack that, that it kind of was a signal of what's to come.

Is it smart to wait? You talked about the sort of lack of cap. There's not enough money here, essentially.

I don't— I, I— if they could get out, they would. I, I think what— I think what this says is the CFO talked to the banker and the banker said, okay, there's no wallpapering over this. Your business has lost a ton of momentum. And then you combine it with the second thing that is different, than Anthropic. Altman has taken the Amazon and Netflix fake it until you make it, spend more money than anyone else and your stock will go up. He's taken that to an extreme that is too much. And that is if you look at how much money they are burning, I think what the S-1s, and they would be, they would be side by side immediately. Everyone would be comparing Anthropic and OpenAI's financials. Against each other.

Yeah.

And I think what you would see is the following. Not only has OpenAI massively lost momentum against Anthropic, it is also operating much more promiscuously with cash. And that is despite Anthropic's massive investments and massive losses, it's projecting that it'll break even by 2030. And Sam Altman's whole thing is, I know I'm committing to $1 trillion in CapEx because the future, there's only one winner.. And I think the market, I, I think the S-1 side by side would show a company that is losing momentum and is spending way too much money and losing too much money. And I think the bankers have come back and said the following.

They don't want the comparison.

Well, this is what's gonna happen in the next 6 months. This is gonna be the great exit from cost. This is gonna be the great reduction in spending and CapEx commitments by OpenAI. They are gonna massively decrease their expenditure and CapEx commitments. 'Cause I think the bank—

Then it hits Oracle, it hits a lot of them, it hits all of them, right?

Still an amazing company. It's still growing really fast. But the amount of money they were committing to in terms of CapEx has gotten outta control. And then you couple that with a reversal in momentum. I think Goldman and JP Morgan and the CFO have said to Sam, this is gonna be hard.

So then what do they do? If Anthropic gets out at over a trillion, they've gotta meet that, right? Speaking of dick measuring contests, they kind of want that number. Can they actually get out then in 2027?

Oh, I think this is a cost story. And that is, I think they're just gonna have to reduce their commitments.

They gotta clean it up. They gotta clean it up.

Yeah, because okay, say they get out at $700 and not a trillion, that's still pretty good.

Yeah, no, I get it.

At some point, they're gonna need to raise capital in the public markets, I think. Or maybe could they raise in the private markets? The weird thing is, I wonder if TPG and the private equity firms that got a 16 or a 17% pick, which is really, or guaranteed return, which is really unusual in the private markets, I wonder if they would still do that deal today because the reversal in fortunes here has been like nothing I've ever seen in business without a scandal. And so—

Weird question. Does it get bought?

There's so few players that could buy it. I mean, it's a handful of companies that could afford to buy it. It's one of the big tech companies or SpaceX. That's it. There's maybe 5 comp—

There was all this online plotting that Elon did, sort of made sure that SpaceX IPO was too big and then failed a little bit to stop them, just so you know.

Well, if the next round, see, rather than do a down round, What Altman did was he offered—

He guaranteed it.

Yeah, he offered these terms that typically you don't agree to, a guaranteed return, because he wanted the headline number to be whatever it was, $850 billion or whatever. But at some point, if they start running into a cash crunch, which I don't think they will, at the bottom line, I think the second half of 2026 is about Sam Altman rationalizing the expense side of the business and their CapEx. Commitments because it's still growing like crazy.

And then Anthropic goes out, doesn't delay, goes out.

If I were Dario, I'd want to be like, I'm on top, bitch. I'm going public.

Yeah. Yeah. Right away. Yeah. They've got to. It's a momentum story for them. Absolutely.

And they have a great story. I think the S-1 is going to look really good for Anthropic.

Comparison. Yeah. In comparison. I mean, what's really interesting is how kind of pissy the OpenAI people are about the story Dario gets. Over and over again. I mean, he can be imperious himself and, you know, a little bit self-righteous, which is interesting. But I think that he's got the better story. He does. And a lot of this is narrative. And it actually would be good for Anthropic for not to have them there. Although, you know, looking better than OpenAI is a good thing for them, right? Presumably. He hasn't been as much as spendy.

This is the CFO. This is the CFO in JPMorgan. And Goldman Sachs said, "You don't want these numbers public right now." Yeah, yeah, yep, absolutely.

And by the way, the perception to the ones that did go public wasn't great. All right, we'll see what happens. Interesting story, interesting developing story, but it will impact companies like Oracle and other ones. You saw that draw, just a small drawdown of their shares 'cause they have so many commitments all around the board. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll discuss Pete Buttigieg getting targeted. 1, 2, 3!

I'm stand-up comedian John Marcos Cerezi, and I'm actor-penis model Russell Daniels. The Downside is our podcast where we bring on guests to talk about how miserable their lives are, because let's face it, things are not getting better. Every episode we talk about what's wrong with our lives, our guests' lives, the world, but in In a fun way. Bottom line is you're going to walk away feeling better about your life. We've had so many cool guests. Caleb Heron, Busy Philipps, Stavros Halkias, Laverne Cox, Hasan Piker, Ilana Glazer. I promise you're going to have a good time. Now on the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is The Downside. Is Donald Trump still cool? Well, at first it was what he was promising to America. He was promising change. Yeah, yeah. Has he lived up to that? No, no, I wouldn't say so. I would say I'm disappointed. We're in Washington, D.C. for one of the events that Donald Trump is throwing for America's 250th anniversary. And it's UFC night. Proud to be American. We got free tickets. It's just going to be a great time.

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It's an opportunity to talk to a group that was central in the 2024 election. Young men. Why do we think Trump and men seem to have a connection? I feel like he just knows how to advertise himself to the younger crowd. It aligns with masculinity, I feel like, to a certain extent. But if they don't like Donald Trump, what do they prefer politically otherwise? I just care about my family. I care about my country. I want people to be safe and happy where they live. I care about my wallet too, man. Yeah. I'm Estet Hernton, and this is America Actually. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Seth Matlins. My new show, Create or Destroy: Reimagining Marketing, explores how every decision a company makes, not just the marketing ones, but the HR, IR, pricing, org design, and planning ones, the ones most don't consider marketing at all, contribute to either creating value or destroying it. Each week I sit down with CMOs, CEOs, founders, cultural thinkers, the people building, breaking, and reimagining how businesses grow or don't. For conversations about what creates value and what destroys it. It's a business show.

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Scott, we're back. I want to talk about a story that came out over the weekend about Pete Buttigieg's family. Buttigieg says police showed up at his house after an anonymous tip claimed his his 4-year-old twins were at risk. CPS investigated the claim, and the Michigan State Police later confirmed the report was completely fabricated. While the incident was being investigated, Buttigieg was not allowed to be alone with his 4-year-old children for 24 hours, and they were interviewed by authorities without either parent present. The incident happened during Pride Month, right after the family posted Father's Day photos online. Uh, I was— this was terrifying to someone like myself. This was like, it was just some tip that was called in about another tip of something Pete allegedly— it It was all nonsense, but they had to because they're authorities and he's a well-known person. They had to actually investigate, which is their job. I think they felt sick to do it, but turned out to be all false. It's a version of swatting, but more nefarious.

Swarming.

Swarming or whatever. And he's polling well for the 2028 presidential run. This is just, I can't imagine. I know them pretty well. I know especially Chasten. This is the fear they have as gay parents. Something I've discussed with them. You know, this is the fear. This is this sort of weird feeling people have about gay parenting that is just— it's— I don't even want to call it gay parenting, just parenting, but that they get stuck with. Um, they're wonderful parents and these kids are lovely, uh, and for them to have to go through this just sent a chill when I read his piece. And he's not someone who usually is particularly dramatic, but he was furious about what happened, as he should have been. Any, any thoughts on this?

I don't think this is a gay thing. I think this is stochastic plastic terrorism. I know a couple—

Oh, interesting.

I know a couple, a straight couple in the Midwest, and Child Protective Services showed up at their door one day and said, "We need— we're from Child Protective Services. We need to speak to your children." They had no idea what was going on. By the way, the whole neighborhood found out about it. There's no way you recover from that. No matter how innocent you are proven, that's on your Wikipedia page. If you're ever on trial for anything, the prosecutor can ask, "Weren't Child Protective Services called to your house?" And when I go through TSA, I immediately feel guilty. I immediately like, "Oh, where's that joint in my pocket? I've done something wrong." When you see your suitcase go to the part where they investigate it, you immediately feel guilty. How does a 4-year-old not remember that strangers who you're supposed to speak to who have the authority to separate you from your parents start asking these types of questions How do you not somewhere in your brain think, are mommy and daddy not good people? How do you—

100%.

How do the parents, the community, their reputation, and the kids ever recover from that? Ever.

I agree.

And this is the problem. This is a result of the fetishization and anonymity being linked to shareholder value. And that is, Democracy depends upon disagreement, but also accountability. And when the loudest voices face no consequences, the most thoughtful ones log off in fear. And what happens here is the following. Child Protective Services, their heart is in the right place. They're trying to encourage people to bubble up real instances of child abuse.

Yeah, because they usually miss a lot of them, right?

That's right. But here's the problem, and here's— What needs to be done? The fix isn't to end anonymity. It's smarter than that. The solution is verified yet anonymous credentialing. And that is online, there should be a digital stamp that proves you are a unique human being without revealing which human you are. When you call Child Protective Services, and as it ended up, so the family I was referencing, you know what it ended up? 2 months later, they found out One of their daughters was in a beef with another girl in the same high school, and the girl, the rival girl, called. This happens all over. But here's the problem. The family faces no consequence. So if you call Child Protective Services, we're gonna guarantee your anonymity. But after investigation, if we find out "Look, there's no evidence. Guess what? We're gonna investigate you." I agree.

I was like, "Who are these people who did this?" And, you know, swatting is bad. Swatting is dangerous because there's guns involved, like with kids and everything else. And to me, it's so heinous, the idea of it. Swatting is when you call in that there's some terrible thing happening at the house, and then, you know, SWAT teams come in, as they should, when— 'cause they never know, right? And so, this is such an abuse of a system that's already broken. Right? It's already a problematic system. They don't catch enough child abuse, and sometimes kids don't get checked on, and you read those stories over and over again. But in this case, what sick fuck would think of this thing? Like, what sick fuck would make this stuff up? That, to me— and I would like to find them, and you know what I'd do to them. But I think the authorities really need to have a system. And the thing is, you don't want to discourage people from from telling on real issues of abuse, right? That's the thing. It's a— it's just, I was so upset by this.

This is really upsetting. But the bigger issue is the following: that same architecture, anonymous, consequence-free, infinitely scalable online platforms, they let bots flood elections, radicalize millions, and make public service a target sport. And the bottom line is This is where the right gets it wrong and the left gets it wrong. The internet doesn't have a speech problem. It has an accountability problem. And our fetishization for free speech and anonymity has resulted in a total lack of accountability. If you believe the kids across the street are being abused and Child Protective Services shows up and they find out, "Oh, you misunderstood the situation," you're still not liable. You didn't do anything wrong. Your reasons were valid. But if it finds out you're just a homophobe phobic fucking weirdo, or your daughter has had a beef with another girl in the high school—

There should be consequences.

There's consequences.

I think Pete was talking about that. You know what? I hope— Look, I know they're worried about these issues as gay parents, as we all are, because I was always worried about— I've been— It just sticks in the back of your mind. If it prevents him from running, Which is really, I hope it doesn't. That's what I hope it doesn't. I mean, 'cause let me just say they're wonderful parents. They're wonderful people and they're wonderful parents.

Yeah, but what do you say to the kids? And there's these strange people in suits saying, "We need you to go stay." Yeah, the whole thing is— Like, what do you say to your kids? Like a 4-year-old? What do you say to them?

I wouldn't even, I don't even wanna think about it. It was so upsetting. Anyway, Pete and Cheston, we're so sorry. This is just, this is disgusting. And this is not how you behave towards people who are decent, great parents. And whoever did this, I hope they find you and I hope you have some sort of reckoning. As of this recording, by the way, we're going to move on. House Speaker Mike Johnson says he's sending the landmark housing bill to the White House days after Trump abruptly canceled the signing ceremony for that bill. Interesting move. The bill, which passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming bipartisan support, aims to— and also would be a win for Trump— aims to bring down housing costs. Expand homeownership and boost construction, but Trump says he won't sign it into law until Congress passes his Save America Act, which would require a photo ID to vote and effectively end mail-in voting. By the way, the Supreme Court just upheld a Mississippi law for late-arriving mail-in ballots, a blow to the Trump administration's efforts to queer the election, which is what they're trying to do. And the housing bill can still become law even if Trump doesn't sign it.

So it's technical. If he doesn't sign it, it can become law. If he vetoes it, I believe they have the votes to overcome his veto. So they're kind of putting him in a position. Under the Constitution, the president doesn't sign a bill within 10 days, it becomes law without a signature. And again, Congress can override this one. And so it was interesting that Johnson did this. He obviously knows it's a good thing for— to have this on the Republican record, or at least take credit for it, even though it's kind of bipartisan. Thoughts on that?

Housing is one of the biggest problems in America, whether it's I was reading this morning that Finland took an opposite route. Instead of focusing on mental health or veterans affairs for the homeless, they just focus on housing. They're like, just build cheap housing and get people in housing. And it ends up that housing is a weird form of birth control, that every 10% increase in housing prices, birth rates go down 1%. It reduces people coupling, it reduces birth rates, it reduces self-esteem. You know, housing, affordable housing, is really important. And what we have here is, again, the incumbents, once they've owned homes, make it more and more difficult for new permits. It's gone way too far. Congress, to their credit, recognized it. This bill attempts to get rid of NIMBY legislation and propose YIMBY legislation, credits, more credits, more federal sponsorship for communities that have more housing. This is— I actually thought the bill itself, when you read it, is pretty weak sauce.. But it's a very strong symbolic movement in the right direction. And in addition, when was the last time Congress voted 358 to 32 on anything?

Right, right.

So, and this makes all sorts of sense. Trump getting in the way of this was just stupid. And again, it's veto-proof. So I think this is a win.

What does he do? What does he do? Sign? He's gotta sign it and take credit, right?

Oh yeah, I think so.

I don't— He should. But he's still gonna try everything possible. This SAVE Act, that's not gonna pass, President Trump. It's not. It's not happening. So why does he keep doing this?

Oh, shit. I mean, you're asking me to get into this guy's brain. I would've thought he would, if I were advising him, I would say, "Oh my God, put on a tool belt like you're on a construction site and run around." Yeah, that's his thing. And take credit for this thing. Take credit for it. Housing. This is a big, big issue for Americans.

Right. Instead he's obsessed with, now he wants to build a golf course and put trees in front of the White House. He's just obsessed with all these weird obsessive things around the DC area to preserve his legacy, which seems more interest to him. He went and visited, it was pouring rain yesterday and he was out at Haynes Point where he wants to put in a golf course of some sort. There is a golf course, everybody wants to improve it. And then putting maple trees around Lafayette Square, all this stuff. And then of course touting this really loser American state fair, whatever, that nobody went to. He just seems all obsessed with that kind of stuff and not something that is, even if it's symbolically, even symbolically it's important to, I don't get this. This guy, I think he's terrified that things are gonna go very badly after November. And so it seems to, he's gonna self-soothe with maple trees.

There you go. Well, self-soothed.

Self-soothed, right. Anyway, uh, but he should take credit for this one and he won't. All right, Scott, we're gonna have one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

As America reaches its 250th anniversary, how should Americans assess their country's strength relative to the rest of the world? We're moving into a genuinely multipolar world, and that's a world in which every nation is basically for itself because nations can no longer rely on the United States to protect them.

I'm John Feiner.

And I'm Jake Sullivan. And we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, we sat down with historian and foreign policy expert Bob Kagan to assess America's role in the world at 250 and the future of American power. The episode's out now. Search for and follow The Long Game wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of us probably grew up with mountains of video game stuff. Cartridges, consoles, discs, other discs, broken discs, more discs, everything. And now it seems like those discs are gone. This week on The Vergecast, we're talking about why the gaming industry is going all digital and what it means that that's going away. Plus, whether Rivian can take on Tesla, whether any of us figure out how to vibe code and much more on The Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts.

Okay, Scott, we're gonna do some wins and fails. I think I shall go first. There were so many fail choices. The grift watch of the Trump mining deal in Kazakhstan with Don and Eric, uh, stand to profit along with, uh, Lutnik's— Lutnik family. Um, what's happening in Venezuela is really depressing, watching them try to find people. So many people have died. But I'm going to be a little personal here There's two people who died this week who I know very well and were very impactful on my life. One was Om Malik, one of the very early tech bloggers, someone who had worked very like me in regular media, but then sort of spun off and started doing a really fascinating kind of bloggy and yet fully reported attitude, attitudinal stuff way back in the day, an excellent reporter. He also did events, he did parties. And I really, I got a lot of inspiration from Om who is one of the most jolly fellows I just really enjoyed Owen. We fought a lot about a lot of things, but what an amazing impact he had on early tech journalism when it was, you know, a lot more hopeful in a lot of ways.

But he actually did call people on things very early. Very wonderful guy. He had, you know, he had shifted to becoming a venture capitalist. I didn't go that direction, but just a really wonderful, and he's getting much deserved praise from all of us who were around then. And he struggled with heart issues for a long, long time and was just a really, really wonderful guy. The other one was my assistant. I don't have an assistant, but I did for many years. Ed Daley also died. Another, he had also had health problems around diabetes and everything else. And just a tremendous important part of the growth of my businesses in the beginning of them and worked for me for a long time, was an invaluable help. And, you know, the kind of person that you don't hear about, he wasn't a reporter, but did so much stuff to really build the businesses Walt and I built. And just was a wonderful guy and was wonderful to my kids, especially Louis and Alex. Took them on camping trips with his partner Mark. And just one of these hardworking, really wonderful people who helped so many people. And just really sad.

I'm sorry. Louis just went to see him recently, so I'm glad that happened. But really big impact on my life and just a tremendously huge-hearted person. So that is my fail. Although I also, my heart goes out to people in Venezuela and everything else. And my win is the Supreme Court just rejected Trump's attempt to get $5 million verdict in the E. Jean Carroll sexual abuse case tossed out. This is the end of the road for him. Now I think he's gonna, I just texted Robby Kaplan. Let me see if she wrote back. But who is the lawyer in the case? We'll see where it goes on the smaller verdict. He has to pay the $5 million. There is the 80, I think $85 million, $80 million verdict that is still being disputed. But he has to give her the $5 million, which I just kind of love. And now he is very firmly, what he's accused of, he did. And he can't take it any further. And we'll see on the second part of it, which is defamation related to this case. Anyway, good for E. Jean Carroll and pay up Donald Trump for what you did to her.

And I just felt that it was like, today is the day that the Supreme Court kicks Trump in the teeth a little bit after giving him a lot of wins on immigration, which were, that the Haitians, particularly the Haitian ruling, was really terrible for really hardworking people in this country. In any case, congratulations to Ijean Carroll.

Nice. Okay, so my fail is I can't get over, well, you could argue it's a win for broadcast news, but there were two really illuminating interviews this weekend. The first was John Karl from ABC News interviewed Senator Todd Young and along with Senator Mark Kelly. And they talked about how President Trump accused Mark Kelly of sedition. Okay, so first off, Senator Kelly flew combat missions and also flew the space shuttle at 20,000 fucking miles an hour. I mean, there are a few things more patriotic than the actions of Senator Mark Kelly. Kelly, and they asked, I appreciate John Carl calling Senator Todd Young out in front and say, "How come you didn't, do you agree with this?" And of course, Senator Todd Young broke into song about he texted Senator Kelly to make sure he was all right, but he didn't say a fucking word. And at some point I'm waiting for people before they are, you know, lose their primary At NYU, we have a second year, which is really a waste of money. It's such that we can charge the kids $140,000, not $70,000. And we teach all these electives like sustainability and leadership and ethics.

Let me save you $7,000 on the leadership course of any major university. Do the right thing even when it's hard. There, you just saved $7,000. And we bring in a formerly important person to talk about what a fucking amazing person they are and how the world was against them. But they did the right thing. And we call it a leadership course. Thank you for your $7,000 in student debt. There is such a lack of leadership on the most obvious issues. And I don't understand the calculus from a senator who I believe is a probably a good man and respects his fellow colleague coming out and saying it is wrong to accuse Senator Kelly, an American hero and patriot, of sedition. That is just beyond the line. And then the same time, Ryan Nobles, who was an outstanding stand-in for Kirsten Welker, who I also think is wonderful on Meet the Press, basically kind of got in the face of Senator Roger Marshall and asked him to cite a single example of where voter fraud has influenced an election. And I thought he— I watched it. I'm like, I'm like, go. And of course this guy just went into blather and—

Doctors need to be trusted by— I was like, what in the fuck is that about?

What are you talking about?

He's a doctor.

Pilots need to be— and it's like, okay, but there's no problem here. Planes crash. There is no— no one has ever been able to provide evidence that a single election has been influenced, much less decided, by voter fraud.

This guy's been all over the TV, the Dr. Roger from as the senator, and he's doing the same song and dance everywhere. I don't know why. Maybe he's in a tough fight. I don't know. It's weird. He does this a lot. He's just done this a lot.

Well, I understand that the only way you can do good is to get elected, but at some point, they've gotta recognize that, you know, this guy is coming, is becoming a lame turducken, as you would say. And at some point, they're gonna show something resembling leadership. And I can't, I can't square the calculus of a senator coming out and saying, "Senator Kelly is an American hero." Exactly.

I don't get it. It's the same thing when they— when Fox News is broadcasting from that American States thing, which looks like a— like the Fyre Festival. And they're like, "Look at all the people!" And I'm like, "There's nobody behind you!" Like, how do they do that? Peter Doocy, how did you manage to do that? "Oh, everyone's having fun here," and there's 26 people there. And it was so weird. I don't get it. Like, when are they gonna give? When are they gonna give? When do you think they're gonna give on— Same thing with this guy. It's like, you know, don't believe your lyin' eyes kind of thing. I don't know.

Anyways, I guess it's sort of a win for ABC and NBC News. And these programs still matter despite their declining audiences. They do, are still really relevant. And specifically, it just strikes me at some point senators who are elected to 6-year terms, at some point are gonna begin to understand that, you know, okay, with the definition of quote unquote leadership. My win is that Bill Maher was awarded the—

Mark Twain Award.

The Mark Twain Award. And I thought it was really fitting that it was at the Kennedy Center. But look, I have said this, something I don't like about myself is, is I have been way too influenced by comments in social media, which I think are so fucking corrosive because they start influencing you to say this type of thing and not this type of thing. And I've tried really hard in the last couple years to say, I'm going to say what I mean, mean what I say, and I don't care what the comments are. There are very few posts that get as much blowback as when I say the following, and I mean it. Bill Maher is a hero line. And I think if you were to take every political pundit and have it zero, say, I don't know who the craziest right-wing person is, and on 100 be the craziest left-wing person, if I had to identify someone who was exactly at 50, it would be Bill Maher. And evidence that he is a centrist is that everyone appears to hate the guy publicly, and then every podcast I go on, the host, when I follow up and say, is there anything I can do to help you, they ask me, can "Can I introduce them to someone at Bill Maher?" The guy has been in the business for 33 years.

He is fearless. He is funny. And his contribution isn't defending the idea that people who disagree should be allowed in the same room. It's that the weirdest thing is that it's so remarkable. And today that is remarkable. And he didn't build an audience by telling people what they wanted to hear. He built one by telling everyone something they didn't want to hear. He literally pisses off everybody.

Yeah, which is why he gets the blowback. I mean, he does seek out, like his earlier stuff on Islam and stuff like that. So he is who he is. And I do, I'm always fascinated by how much I get blowback on your behalf, which is interesting. Or, "Why are you on that show?" When I go on, it's a really interesting discussion. And I don't lump him in with all the others who I do find I find somewhat heinous in that regard. And I agree, I think he deserved that. I think he's very funny. I don't always agree with him, that's for sure. But it really is—

That's the point.

Yeah. I don't find it, I don't know, he attracts an unusual amount of ire. He really does.

You will get pushback on this. When I say he's a role model of mine, and there are a few, like when I graduated, I was trying to think, when I graduated from college, when I got my first bonus check, when I sold my first business. There are moments in your life you remember professionally. One of those biggest moments for me was 3 or 4 years ago during COVID when Susan Bennett called me and said, "We'd like you to be on Bill Maher 'cause it's the only show my dad watches." Susan's a producer. She's a producer.

Terrific producer.

And I think the guy is fearless and he brings to light the notion that free speech isn't tested by popular opinions. It's tested by the people who piss you off. And he does that. And he's an equal opportunity agitator. And he was one of the last people in television willing to make both sides equally uncomfortable. I mean, he's really an independent voice. And I don't think his contribution will be remembered as changing minds. It was proving that you can disagree without deciding the other person is evil. And his legacy, although he's a great comedian, I don't think his legacy is comedy. It's defending the proposition that democracy requires conversation, not just conviction. And we have lost so much of that. And I sort of know him, but don't know him well. But the people he surrounds himself with, here's some things about Bill Maher. He has this big rant on how he doesn't have kids and doesn't married. Everyone around him has been working with him for 20 years. The woman in makeup, the guy who brings you to your COVID test, his producers. I think he's a very loyal man. I think he shows up.

I think he works very hard. I think he's unafraid. I think he's a great role model for people who, like me, want to be centrist, distinct of the hate you get because you piss off everybody. I thought he's an outstanding recipient for the Mark Twain Prize. Anyways, my—

I would agree.

My win is the unafraid, courageous believer in free speech that pisses off everybody and everybody wants to be on his show after 33 years. And that is Bill Maher.

Good for you. Good for you. You do care about comments, Scott. You're never gonna not care about comments. Never.

Well, I'm addicted to the affirmation of others, Cara. It's really pathetic.

It's not pathetic. You don't give yourself a hard time. It does get to you. It doesn't get to me as much as it gets to you, but it gets to me too. I mean, I think you will Well, it's okay for it to hurt. I have to tell you.

Well, shaming is a very powerful feeling because until about 50 years ago, if you were shamed and expunged from the tribe, it meant you were gonna starve or be eaten by a bear in 72 hours or less.

Well, you're not gonna get eaten by a bear.

Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so.

You're vulgar, but you're not getting eaten by a bear. But no, I agree with you. I think Bill deserved that award. And I know people, you know, we often disagree. We really do. But the kind of, I mean, I see, listen, if you don't like Bill Maher, don't watch him. I don't know what else to say. That's my feeling. It's like, that's what I say to people. And by the way, you know, people in my family, one of my kids was like, why are you going on his show? And I'm like, you know what? It's none of your fucking business. I am. 'Cause I like going on it. I enjoy the show. So—

I'm going on, I think July 29th. I'm gonna take Beata and I'm gonna take both my sons. And I never take them all to anything. And I said, this is important to me. I want you to come with me.

Oh, okay. Good. Well, good. Anyway, good ones. Good ones for you. That was a good one. Can I do one more brief fail? And I don't want any, I just wanna say Scott Weiner is a friend of mine and what happened to him in San Francisco last week was heinous.

Unacceptable.

Like I don't usually mind criticism around of Israel and I think it's really important for, and I don't think every criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but what happened to him and he has been a supporter of all manner of things in San Francisco. He was anti-Semitic, was really, truly, and strange. And that kind of— that really shouldn't— I feel terrible for Scott because he's been— You know, there's lots of things you could disagree with Scott on, but not what they were yelling at him about. And so it had a real tinge of real hatred. And that really repulsed me in a way that I usually am okay with some criticism, of all manner of countries and stuff like that. And so just that cannot be tolerated by the Democrats. That cannot be tolerated, that kind of behavior. So I would just wanna say that, but I feel bad for Scott who's been a really hardworking public servant. Anyway. All right, so that's the show. Congratulations to Bill Maher. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-519-8888.

Pivot elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe this week and on. I just spoke to Jim Bankoff, the CEO of Vox Media, and Meredith Kopit Levien, president and CEO of The New York Times, at Cannes Lions, which was really fun. We talked about the ways they adapted to a changing media landscape and the effects of AI on publishing. And it was a great session. And thanks to UTA for hosting us and keeping it quiet. Let's listen to a clip. The leverage is is even the LLMs will need an information ecosystem with high-quality, independently produced, verified information. If they don't have it, their products will not ultimately be good either. We all wanna live in a society where quality information is available, and I believe they do too. You believe they do too. I think that these are information companies, these are information tools, and I think informa— at a certain point, for you to have a healthy functioning democracy, you have to have high quality information and people have to be able to identify the difference. This was a really good discussion and we had a little testiness around some, a couple of things, but, uh, they, it was great.

It was a really interesting discussion about media and where it's going. And Meredith, uh, both Scott and I have huge regard for her and that Jim Bankoff guy is nice too.

Um, you want a little known fact about the CEO of New York No, let me tell you. She's got a dreamy boyfriend. He's a tall drink of lemonade. He is. Have you met him?

Yes, I have.

I went up to her and I'm like, "That guy, dude's so handsome." And she looks around and she's like, "I know." She's great. She's great. He's like, literally, like, I'll take my masculinity to go. Jesus Christ.

I love everything about Marin. I think she's a great executive. She's a great parent. She's really, she's all that and a bag of chips, as they say. And so, lucky for him to have her. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

Today's show was produced by Lara Namensoy, Marcus Taylor-Griffin, Todd Wiseman, and Christine Driscoll. Additional assistance from Kate Gallagher and Brad Sylvester. Ernie and Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Brose, Mia Severino, and Dan Shalon. This show is a Vox Media executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back later in the week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week.