Transcript of Elon v. Kara, Tesla’s SpaceX Lifeline, and Sacha Baron Cohen on Satire

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This is like a lesbian collective, the two of you. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

And guess what? Elon Musk is pissed at me again. I said on the Bloomberg Bulwark podcast that Elon might need to be worried if the GOP loses the House and the Senate. And he tweeted, live by the sword, die by the sword. Sounds like Kara Swisher really wants to go to prison. I really don't.

I'm not nearly important enough to get in the way of his ire. So question, does this stuff bother you or do you enjoy the attention or?

No, none of it. I think it's toddler behavior. It's kind of ridiculous. He threatened Congress, I think too. And oddly enough, you were meaner to him this week, you know, on our clip. And of course he comes after me, Yeah, but I'm not important enough.

It's like when Trump goes after Jess Tarlov or Musk goes after you, I'm still waiting for my global important person to come after me. I don't— how come you and Jess get all the hate?

I don't know. Jessica's the same way. And Kaitlan Collins. What happened was I gave an interview to Katherine Rampell at The Rampart and I was— I had talked to congresspeople and heard they were coming after Elon and it's called reporting. And I said it and I said, you know, in a Kamala Harris administration, all those investigations, there were several criminal things attached to them. So he could have gone to prison, but he got rid of them. I was making a point that he got rid of all the investigations, either through his relationship with Trump or through Doge. And now they're going to come back. And I said, and you're going to see a lot of congressional people saying so. And they did the next day. Like, all of them went on the record, not just Elizabeth Warren, but even a Republican was saying, we need to investigate this Ukraine thing. Other people said the other ones. And so I was just pointing out the dead fucking obvious of what's gonna happen if, if, uh, that's why he's throwing so— she was asking me why he was throwing so much money at the midterms. Like, it's like, I think it's $400 million at this point.

And, uh, and I said, this is why. It's not because he believes in Trump. He believes in himself and he's trying to save his own skin. Anyway, he, for some reason, lost his mind. And by the way, this is something Elon said to Tucker Carlson and his mother said, don't joke about it, like recently. So it's not something that he, he said the word prison, but then he just said this thing, live by the sword, die by the sword. I don't know who he's talking And that I want to go to prison, which is like, I don't mind being in a prison movie, like, and acting in it. And if the ladies from Hunting Wives were in there, I probably wouldn't mind prison. But I don't know. I don't know what— how does Jess— Jess wrote me too. And, you know, I was on Caitlin's show last night, and all of us just get relentless hate by all these really troubled men. And in the case of Jess and Caitlin, it's Trump. In the case of me, it's Elon.

Yeah, like, you get to say what you want, he gets to say what he wants. The difference is when you're the President of the United States or the wealthiest man in the world and you have this cult-like following, I think you need to be a little bit more mindful of the potential knock-on effects of if you have a couple hundred million people that follow you religiously and have bought into your self-proclaimed views of yourself as a Jesus-like figure, You have to recognize that there's a non-zero probability that saying something like that about someone else might result in physical harm to them or their family. And so you'd like to think that these individuals are a little bit more measured and realize that as you get more powerful, you are going to be subject to more attacks, some fair, some unfair. And I'm not saying your or Jess's attacks against Musk or the president have been unfair. I don't think they have been. This is the world we live in now where individuals say, an autocrat thinks the following, if I go after these people and exert my power, I will silence my critics. And if you want to see a chorus, he's about to find out what a real Kara Swisher criticism is on November 4th if the Democrats take the House and the Senate.

The fact that this individual is making geopolitical decisions around the fate of the West on a whim. And he's blaming the president. The president's blaming him. You don't think every— no, no, right now, no representative and a third of the senators want to raise their head above the parapet and piss him off because he might dump $200 million into their competitor's campaign. On November the 4th, You are going to see the mother of all subpoenas and requests for him to come testify before Congress.

They've already said it. They've already said, save your communications. This Ukraine thing, I think, was the final straw for a lot of people. Although it shouldn't have been the final straw. I mean, Doe should have been the final straw. And, you know, he's done this before. He said my heart was seething with hate or filled with hate, or I don't know. And, you know, I got a few really strange phone calls. I got I got— I don't— I wouldn't call them death threats. They were not nice. They were not nice. And of course, over on Twitter, all the VC stans of his are just like losing their minds because they're all such, you know, they're just suck-ups and acolytes in a way that's really unattractive. And it's just nuts. It's a nuts thing to do. And he should be able to, you know, if you can't stand the heat, Elon, get the fuck out of the kitchen. I don't know what else to say.

But there is also— I'm one, I don't like to throw around the word misogynist. I think it is overused. I think oftentimes misogyny is Latin for, I don't have a rational defense, so I'll just call everything I don't like misogyny. I think it is overused. Having said that, it does appear that there is a pattern that when a female reporter or a female journalist is openly critical of the president or Musk, there is a different DEFCON level of anger. It is impossible not to connect the dots that he has a tendency to call a woman piggy, not an overweight man, not an overweight journalist, but a woman he will call piggy.

That's true.

He seems to be obsessed with younger, attractive females, Jess and Caitlin. Elon seems to be— there are a lot of journalists. And but, you know, I don't— one, I'm not as famous as you, but there seems to be a pattern with these guys that women who come for them get a much more gut-wrenching visceral response than men who say the same.

Yep.

Or worse.

Oh, yes, we've noticed. The violent stuff is really weird. And it's always swords. It's so It's so cosplaying a 4-year-old. It's like—

It's as if he's— I don't— it's like he's acting like a guy who's addicted to ketamine.

Okay. Yeah, well, you think?

Allegedly. That's what it feels like to me. Allegedly, based on reporting from The Wall Street Journal and a ton of other outlets.

I will say, I got a lot of notes from people, well-known people, that were horrified. I'm like, why don't you say something to him? Really, you should.

That's the thing. Yeah. I am so sick of people texting me and saying, whether it's on, you know, pick your topic, and they say, you're absolutely right here. And I'm like, okay, where the fuck are you, boss?

Right, exactly. So, you know—

Thanks for the text.

Right.

Thanks for the text.

Right. Yeah. Well, whatever. Calling you Ari Emanuel, and maybe you should speak with your friend, you know, since you never write about his terrible behavior. Anyway. All right, Scott, we've got a lot to get to today, including a special conversation with one of our favorite comedians, Sacha Baron Cohen, who has a new movie, Ali G: Who Is I? turns out to be a very good friend of Scott Galloway. But let's— before that, let's get going. First, I want to talk about SpaceX and Tesla earnings. I shall talk about Elon, although he threatens me. SpaceX shares surged after the company reported record 3rd quarter revenue of $14.6 billion, up 161% from a year ago. The company also reported $4.4 billion in net income, reversing a loss of more than $1 billion a year earlier. Moving on, Tesla beat Wall Street's 3rd quarter earnings expectations, reporting $28 billion in revenue even as its core automotive of revenue fell 3% from a year ago. Net income, of course, dropped 29% to $787 million as Tesla ramped up spending on AI and its Optimus robots. You know, in anticipation, as I predicted, of this SpaceX and Tesla merger, they formed a special committee to explore that.

I mean, of course, that's what they're going to do because data is the game for this company now in all aspects. And that's the bet he is making. Of course, a lot of the money from SpaceX is from selling compute. So if there's any weakness in the AI sector, it'll be a problem for that company. And by the way, Elon also reportedly did order a slowdown of Ukraine's military-grade Starlink service last week, according to The Wall Street Journal. Besides being heinous, it's also a business problem. People are, you know, the head of Delta doesn't want to do business with Starlink. Lots of Europeans don't, the Canadians don't. So it could actually hurt the business. So take off, Scott Galloway, Mr. Earnings.

So I'm not going to talk about valuation. I would argue that both Tesla and And SpaceX, you're paying just an enormous narrative premium. But let's just talk about the business. SpaceX is literally a rocket ship. Its revenue is about $14.6 billion, up 161%. Net income at $4.5 billion. The AI business is now more than half of revenue, up 9x. Starlink, $5.2 billion in revenue at 45% operating margin with 14 million subscribers. Now there's some fear here. CapEx was almost $20 billion. 2 customers are 38% of revenue. So essentially SpaceX is a phenomenal business with the same problem a lot of these AI companies have. It's got a concentration problem and also it's a cash bonfire.

SpaceX, can I note that because they missed their Q3 results, people are calculating missing free cash flow. They need money. They need money, as you said.

Look, the fears around these companies is will they ever be able to justify the CapEx? That's a fear across all of AI. This company, no doubt about it, is— and then again, distinct to the valuation, which I would argue is insane, it is firing on all 12 cylinders right now. Tesla is different. Tesla, the revenue is flat, operating income down 56% to about a 3% margin, with regulatory credits down 73%, which made up the majority of its profits pre-Trump canceling those credits. The P/E has gone from 305 to 330. So this is an automobile company where the industry trades at an average of 18 and it's trading at 330. The deliveries were flat to down. So basically this, you can't even talk about valuation on Tesla. It's a religion. And it has about $3 million of market cap per car delivered last quarter. And most car companies get about tens of thousands, not millions per car in market cap. He is— the reason they're doing this merger, and the merger's gonna happen, 'cause what you have here is call it special committee, call it shareholders lost, they'll be lost.

He wants to do it.

The reality is the bride, the groom, and the officiant are the same person here. So this marriage is gonna go through, and the special committee is a kabuki dance. It's all show, it's all posturing to try and act as if this is somewhat legitimate or check an SEC box. You know, in Sex and the City, and by the way, Kara, I know you know this about me, I'm a Sex and the City girl.

Me too.

I love Sex and the City. And Carrie's dating Baryshnikov and he keeps saying, well, after this art showing, we'll get to do this. Well, after this. And she meets with an old girlfriend who says, why did you break up? And she says, she got sick of hearing, when this happens, we'll get a chance to spend more time together. Elon Musk is essentially the master at saying, oh wait, I got a shitty auto company that's just a high-cap, high-capex, low-margin business. But wait, we're going to have autonomous. Oh wait, it's clear my autonomous dreams aren't coming through. Wait, we're going to have robots. Oh wait, the robot thing is pie in the sky. Oh, we're going to merge it with SpaceX and get data and create the ultimate autonomous space connectivity automobile autonomous company. And you— he really is masterful at this. And you not only need to do it for investors, you need to do it for employees. Something I do every year in Q4, I say next year is our year of video, and this is why it's gonna increase the value of the company and why the value of your options are gonna go up.

Then I say the next year, this is the year of subscription revenue. We're launching on Substack, and a revenue mix multiple is why you are going to— your options are gonna be worth more money. So it's not only always painting a vision that gets people excited, it's not only for shareholders, It's for people joining the company. And he's amazing at this because basically Tesla has run out of rabbits to stuff into a hat here. So he's created a new narrative and said, oh no, we're going to be part of SpaceX and we're going to bring a lot of top-line revenue to SpaceX. There'll be some synergies.

There's also some things in it for him in terms of the things he has to meet to get more money from them.

Yeah. And he's going to get— he's going to paint a vision. It's going to increase his control of the company. You're being asked— with SpaceX, you're gonna be asked to buy the most expensive car company in history at 328 times earnings. SpaceX shareholders essentially are bailing Tesla out, and that is Tesla has run out of rabbits, and this is the new one. You're gonna be part of this unbelievable company that's growing fast, and they'll figure out a way to spin the yarn there. Kaushey says there's a 48% chance it closes before March and 81% before 2028, according to Kaushey. Now, the existential threat here that people aren't talking enough about, and you referenced it at the beginning.

Yes, that's what I want to get to. There are 2 of them. I think I know what you're going to say the first one is.

Oh, the biggest one, hands down. And I'm a capitalist. I don't believe in taking stakes in Intel. I don't believe in Obama funding Salandra. I think the private market, generally speaking, does things better. Some things it does worse, for example, healthcare and the Navy. But I think there are going to be calls to, if not massively regulate, potentially even nationalize Starlink. When you have an unelected representative throttling back the ability for a nation to defend itself, and it doesn't know that when inbound projectiles are coming in from Russia and it starts to launch its defense drones and the defense drones don't work because Starlink, without their knowledge, has been dialed, throttled back, Oh my gosh, you have some explaining to do. No Democratic congressperson or senator right now wants to raise their head above the parapet and potentially inspire his ire and get a couple hundred million dollars to go to their competitor. Once November the 4th happens—

Well, they are actually, they are. That's not true. There's been about a half dozen.

But even Republican—

There was one, there was 2 Republicans already.

We haven't seen anything yet.

Yes, I agree.

There are so many elected officials waiting to haul that guy in front of Congress. Right.

But more than that, isn't it also, speaking of capitalism, look, Canada is looking for other partners but Starlink. Europe is. Delta is. Like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of movement. I don't want to use this guy's stuff because he could turn it off at any point or they could take it against me. Is that a risk from your perspective? The business? And he's fighting in India with the world's richest Indian, I think.

Once Europe, had an option in EVs. Let's be honest, he was first. He made the best EV. In 2017, they had the best EV. In 2020, they had the best EV. Now the BYDs in Europe, Tesla sales are plummeting. The moment Europeans had an option. Right now there is no option to Starlink. And what do you know? Europe is talking about binding together to create the equivalent of Airbus. And that is Airbus was essentially a response to Boeing. Europe said, how come the Americans and this American company, which has been subsidized fairly by military contracts, controls the entire market for commercial jet transportation? So they bound together and they actually created an incredible company called Airbus that in my view now produces a superior plane. They are starting to talk about getting together and also Amazon is coming for that business. But the Europeans, as soon as there's an option in these countries to Starlink—

I mean, capitalism will take care of it.

Maybe even before that though. And I predicted this. You're going to see a nation ban Starlink. They're just going to say, we've had it with this guy. He is importing— the greatest export of Elon Musk isn't EVs or connectivity, it's political division. When he starts riling up far-right people in Germany, You got to think that at some point the moderates in Germany are going to go, you know what, boss? Fuck you.

You're saying it. I mean, the Delta guy got all kinds of shit. And he's, again, he's attacking this very wealthy guy in India. Everything is done with a bullying manner. It is not going to go well. Let me say, I think the bigger— and I agree, this is a risk that people just, I don't want to do business with this fella, essentially. But one of them is what happens if AI goes bust? Because as I read those results from SpaceX. It's them selling compute that he's been building. That's what they're making money on is selling compute. And if there isn't an endless bottomless need for compute, and maybe there will be, or if there's some sort of breakdown with the AI market, Ken Griffin talked about it quite eloquently this week. If there's some breakdown, this is at the heart of this surge that they just had. They're exposed is all I have to say. In many areas. Yeah.

And it's, it's, I wonder if it just all happens at once. There's regulatory, there's, they missed their first revenue growth. And then basically people say, okay, this is a great, this is a great company with incredible regulatory risk that should get X valuation, not 10X valuation. And so this is, and he's going down I just don't understand his logic around some of the moves he's made. I do think, I always think these guys have gone a bridge too far and I found out, oh no, there's 1,000 more bridges they're going to cross.

Yeah. Ukraine would seem to be the one.

Ukraine has a lot of Republicans pissed off.

Yeah. And a lot of Ukrainians.

And then you see those images of the woman taking her injured infant out of an apartment building that was shelled. And we find out that the I mean, imagine how the Ukrainians feel. They were about to launch their drones with Starlink technology, their defense drones, to try and shoot down incoming projectiles, and they don't work. And even Trump's blaming Musk. Musk is blaming Trump. You know, everyone's pointing the finger at each other. Anyways, the existential risks here are like you talked about, or we've been talking about, and that is regulatory blowback, loosely called that. And also So all of these companies face the same risk, and that is, will the return on their CapEx ever really be there? Because the CapEx is just extraordinary.

I recommend listening to Ken Griffin talking about it. I find him— I mean, he's a strange kitty cat, but he's very smart. Anyway, we'll see what happens. We will see what happens with this. But just keep an eye on it because it matters to the whole economy. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Meta's earnings and the new plan to keep Mark Zuckerberg in control of the company. Support for the show comes from Attio. There are sales teams out there who never seem to stop moving, always a step ahead, always on the number, working with a level of precision that doesn't seem normal. It's no secret they're on Attio, the agentic CRM. Attio runs the work behind every win. It's built for humans and agents with the guardrails of human software and the scale of agentic infrastructure. Every customer signal your team needs is captured in high resolution, always current, and always compounding. Then watch Atteo's agents and workflow go to work building pipeline, chasing every buying signal, and moving deals forward 24/7. And whether you're in your browser, Slack, Claude, or in your inbox, Atteo meets you wherever you are.

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And I'm Scott Galloway.

Twice a week, we get together on Pivot to sort through the biggest stories in tech, business, and politics. And we're taking the show back on the road for a live tour in November.

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Scott, we're back and we've got more earnings to get to. Meta just reported strong 3rd quarter numbers with revenue jumping 26% to a record $64.6 billion, beating Wall Street expectations. Profit did take a hit from a $10 billion legal charge tied to the company's settlement of social media addiction lawsuits. There's more to come. A New Mexico judge just ordered Meta to pay $25 billion for deceiving users about its data privacy practices. And we'll have more on that and more. And by the way, there's more to come. That is its greatest risk right now, I would imagine. Meta announced then a 2-for-1 stock split that'll create a new set of Class C shares to help fund AI spending and keep Mark Zuckerberg in control of the company, 'cause that's how he likes it. The new shares come with a commitment from Zuckerberg to stay in California. He was threatening to leave. While giving him a way to pay the state's proposed billionaire wealth tax if it passes. You know, it's a trick to keep him there. And also in Meta land, Joel Kaplan, Meta's head of global policy, and one of Mark Zuckerberg's closest advisors, is leaving the company next year after more than 15 years.

Kaplan, a former senior advisor to George W. Bush, helped shape Meta's policies on free speech and content moderation. He also played a key role in repairing Meta's relationship with Trump. The timing of his announcement, just weeks before midterms, is raising questions whether Meta is anticipating a blue wave and trying to get ahead of it. Though Casey Newton pointed out in Platformer, Kaplan isn't leaving because he fears Democrats. He's leaving because his work is done. He's been the most influential in removing all moderation. and backing conservatives, for sure. And the person taking his place, Dina Powell, and another lawyer there also. But she's a very— she's a softer side of Facebook, I think, in a lot of ways. And I don't mean that in a sexist way. She's just very well-liked. Joel is very controversial and probably wouldn't do as well in a Democratically controlled congressional situation. Thoughts on the earnings? A little trick to keep him in California, where he has lovely homes. I think he probably wants to stay there too. And also Joel.

I mean, I've said this 3 or 4 times in a row. Meta's earnings are nothing short of remarkable on a huge base, up 26%, ad prices up 14%, impressions up 10%, while headcount was down 15%, while revenue grew 26%. That's kind of AI efficiency in one sentence, fewer people, more money. I mean, it's just the most seminal earnings call of the AI age was, I think, 6th earnings call when Meta said we grew 23% with 20% fewer people. That's everyone's fear. That's every politician's and citizen's fear while every shareholder's dream that they're going to be able to just make more money with fewer people. The legal bill, again, $25 billion from New Mexico. So they've gotten about— they've been handed about $45 billion in legal costs this year. And that's in penalties. That's roughly a third though of its CapEx budget. So it's, you know, you could honestly say for the first time harming teenagers is showing up as a line item that matters, but it's still not enough disincentive to really change their behavior, I would argue.

Yeah, it will be. I say it will be.

I think so. Hopefully this is just the start. Their CapEx, like again, back to everything else here, the fear around all of this is that we're in an arms race. $35 billion CapEx for the quarter, that's 54% of revenue. Year-to-date free cash flow as a result has fallen from $30 billion to $11 billion. And, you know, this is— I don't think there is a company that has better proven the opportunity of AI for business than Meta. And let me just say this personally, and I want to ask you this. I have found in the last 6 months I am increasingly addicted to Instagram and Reels. I feel as if they literally go inside my brain and figure out what 30-second hit of dopamine I want next at exactly the right time.

Interesting. I think it's a great product. I do. Of all of the social media products, if you do it right and you get the right algorithm, it's not hateful, whether it's Threads or Instagram. If you get it correct, it's a terrifically made product. It works well. There's some problem with sharing. I'll be— there's some slowness. They haven't been developing features on Threads because I don't think it matters to them. But I I think it's a good product. Muse, if you've noticed, as I noted it would happen, everybody signed up. Not as many people are using it. It'll still be a significant business for them. It's not dumb like some of their ones they had to abandon, like their dating service or things like that. I still wonder if Muse will catch on or not. I'm not so sure it will, but we'll see if people are, depending on if people find a real use case for it. But it's well done. It's well done and vaguely creepy. So everything they do is really, and that's why these numbers are great, right? I think, you know, in case of Tesla, Elon lost the attention span and he made a Cybertruck, not a better, smaller car to compete with BYD.

Mark does keep his eye on the ball, on the products, and has had some significant misses. I mean, their metaverse thing was just a disaster. Their phone wasn't so great. They have a list of things they've sucked at. But in general, in their core business, including advertising, I find the advertising very pertinent to what things I want. I often buy things off of Meta, which is interesting, or want to. But, you know, still, they won't change. And Kaplan's sort of leaving, and I think Kaplan, I think he's been very effective in a way that I find really not great and distasteful even, what he's done to try to please Trump people. And it's in his own, by the way, he wants to do this. So I think they're getting ready for a more hostile political environment by putting in something like Dina. But I do think these social media lawsuits are going to continue and be a real problem.

Kaplan probably got paid $200 or $300 million to do one thing, and that was repair the relationship and advise, okay, Mark, after the attempted assassination, say that Trump was a badass. Say this, say this, go to the thing, do this, donate to this. He basically repaired or got Meta out of the crosshairs of the Trump administration. All of this stock stuff is essentially gymnastics such that if Prop 40 passes, which Kalshi says only has a 1 in 4 chance of passing, but if it does pass, he would have to come up with $12.5 billion, which likely means he needs to sell stock. So all of this is gymnastics such that if he has to do that, he doesn't lose control of the company. So through a series issuing non-voting stock. I don't— I think it's all for now.

He controls the company now. He controls it now, so he can do this, right? He wants to stay in California. He likes Tahoe. He likes his house. He likes California.

Well, on a larger level, for all the bitching and moaning and reporting from Fox about the hellscape that is California, the people with the most options of any humans ever alive on this planet choose to live in— wait for it— California. All those taxes, all those homeless. I'm a billionaire. I could literally live on any plot on God's green earth, and I choose to stay in Malibu or Woodside or La Jolla. Why? Because California's fucking amazing. And yeah, it's not perfect. It's definitely got issues. But most of these guys, for all their bitching and moaning, most of them, when they quote unquote move, move just long enough to qualify for residency in Florida or Texas or whatever. Yeah. Such that they can have a lower tax rate. But anyone who spends— anyways, I'm not gonna be an ad here for California.

He loves California and Hawaii. I knew he would stay. That's the one I asked.

Yeah, who wouldn't?

Well, some of them do like going to Nevada. Some of them do like going to wherever.

Oh, come on.

Who's—

you think Sergey's just loving— he's loving Reno? I love the vibe in Reno.

No, but Mark in particular, loves California. He really does. I think he really— it's a— let me say, I would recommend reading Casey Newton's piece on it because Joel Kaplan really has been like a really— oh, Joel, have lunch with me, Joel. Finally, you chicken shit.

He clocked his couple hundred million bucks to sell his soul, and you know what? It was worth it.

It's not— he's not selling his soul. He believes that stuff. Let me just say, he firmly believes. Remember, he sat behind, uh, um, what's his name, the Supreme Court, and he shouldn't have been there.

Kavanaugh.

Kavanaugh. He's— they're friends.

Whatever. I just love the look of Kavanaugh's wife. Like, oh, I— that's just my favorite look. I just—

I— Anyway, we have to go. We have to go on a quick break. Anyway, when we come back, we'll talk to a very special guest, Scott's cuddle partner, Sacha Baron Cohen. Support for this show comes from IM8. We all know someone who's convinced that they're the picture of health just because they take endless supplements. How many of them actually help? Debatable. One thing's for sure though, having a medicine cabinet full of a variety of different products is an easy way to burn yourself out on wellness entirely. IM8 can help you simplify your supplement routine once and for all. IM8's Daily Ultimate Essentials combines 16 supplements replacing 90 ingredients across 9 major organ systems. Co-founded by David Beckham and built by leading doctors and researchers, IM8 was designed by the world's best. 95% of people who tried it for 12 weeks felt more energy, and that's from a clinical trial conducted by the San Francisco Research Institute. Go to im8health.com/pivot right now and use the code pivot for a free welcome kit, 5 free travel sachets, plus 10% off your order. That's code pivot at im8health.com/pivot. Again, code pivot at im8health.com/pivot. These statements have not been evaluated by the Support for the show comes from Framer.

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Scott, we're back, and here to join us is Sacha Baron Cohen. We were just talking about the word cunt, but we're gonna move on from that. And actually, it's a good thing to start with because your movie—

Oh, I thought you were gonna call me one.

Okay.

No. All right, fine. You cunt. But your directorial debut, Ally G: Who Is I?, which you wrote and star in, is in theaters today. And it is a lot about cunts. what you say and what you don't say. Let's watch a clip from the film before we jump in.

You are the indigenous people of this country. You must keep this country true to what it always was.

Hell yeah, dude.

Do not be fooled. These immigrants are not coming here to mow your lawn, trim your trees, rake your leaves, clean your house, care for your babies, your parents, bus your tables, wash your cars, Cars, pick fruits and vegetables in the fields, clean your hotel rooms, schools, offices, hospitals, paint your houses, build your fences, operate slaughterhouses, install your roofs, drywall, plumbing, or electric. They are coming to kill you.

Hell yeah, man. Oh God, that was so good. First question, I'm going to start. Why are you friends with Scott Galloway? No, you can't answer that.

He's the only person He's a little bit taller than me.

Oh, really?

Is he? He's my life coach.

Yeah.

Uh-huh. How so? What's his best piece of advice? Don't listen to Scott Galloway?

What is it? Breathe in and focus on what you can control.

Oh, okay.

I mean, basic stuff that you'd pay like an amateur shrink for.

Do you believe—

Because I'm English, I've never heard this stuff before.

Oh, okay. All right. Okay. Well, I'm very pleased about your relationship.

Can I answer quickly? Can I answer that question? Sasha is we became, I'm going to say this, we became fast friends because Sasha's one of those friends I can text him at 10:00 PM on a Tuesday night and say, hey, you want to grab a drink? And there's a 50% plus chance that within 10 seconds I get a, yeah, where?

Exactly. So I'm desperate and available. Exactly. My main attribute is I have no other options.

Right.

So you're essentially his his friend's side piece, right? In the old times.

Like hookup.

Just hookup. All right. Let's actually talk about the movie. Talk about why is the right time to bring back the character Ali G, who has been canceled? Like, you know, he's obviously famous for saying offensive things. Talk a little bit about why now for Ali G, of all your many characters.

Well, he's an impossible character to exist in 2026, which is which is why I thought it would be fascinating to bring him back. You know, he's a dinosaur, a relic from another time. He's completely the same, but the world has changed. As we all know, it's a lot more divided. There's identity politics. But I felt if I was bringing him back, I needed to create these other 2 characters who could show the extremism on the right and on the left. So, with the— I never would've brought him back alone, but I felt if I could bring those other 2 characters and bring them in, I'd create them on this other show called Who Is America? We could actually talk about— it could be, firstly, hilarious, and secondly, we could examine the extremism on the right and the left.

Right. And you bring in an Israeli trainer, right? Is that correct?

Colonel Eran Morad, yes.

Exactly. Was just in that scene.

Who pretends he was in the Mossad, but was not really in the Mossad.

Yeah. Well, exactly. Everybody pretends. And then your other character is sort of like— explain the name. and everything else.

He's called Dr. Naira Kane and Tagocello. He's, you know, so left that he makes AOC look MAGA. And he's a professor in ethnomusicology from Reed College in Oregon. And essentially, he's the kind of white savior, but he is the nemesis of Ali G. I mean, this is a thriller. So, it's a bit like The Fugitive. You know, we have a cultural appropriator on the run, But it's Ali G is on the run, and this guy's trying to stop him.

I want to ask you about a piece you wrote for Time Magazine where you said, in an era when the US president and his ilk— excellent use of the word ilk, by the way— seems impervious to shame and ridicule, is satire all but dead? Because this week we got like 10 new terrible characters, and one came and went, which is Scott's favorite, which is Kate Zachariah.

Zachariah Webb.

Yeah. I'm sorry.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, is that a question?

Yes. Why do you think— answer that question that you posed.

I don't think it is dead. No. No, I think you have to recalibrate. And there was a theory— I almost actually made a movie with David O. Russell immediately when Trump was elected the first time. And he was like, no, we can't do it. There's no such thing as satire. But I think you just have to recreate and reinvent. And the show I did, Who Is America? We actually looked at who were the people we wanted to interview. and then engineered characters who they would speak to. So, this character, the 3 characters in this movie, Aligier, which obviously was from about 28 years ago, but the Israeli character was created because we felt that right-wing Republicans would speak to a kind of Israeli Krav Maga expert, and they would demonstrate their extreme fear of Muslims or people from Latin America, and this character could get them to do really extreme things.

Right. These are real people you were talking to.

And everyone, I must say, in the movie is completely real other than me, the person playing Ali G's girlfriend, and A$AP Rocky and his partner, I forget her name, they're also in on it. Everyone else are real, unsuspecting people.

Including George Santos. Scott?

So, I just want to review some of my favorite moments, and then I do have a question. The Giuliani Hotel scene, where you got a sitting presidential lawyer to film a scene, it became actual news cycle weeks before the election. Jason Spencer, who is America, a Georgia state legislator, shouted slurs and dropped his pants on camera for a fake anti-terror trainer. He resigned shortly after the episode. The Salem, Virginia rodeo, where you got thousands of people to cheer an increasingly bloodthirsty pro-war rant. Kindergartens in 2018, you got gun rights advocates and politicians, including a former state Senate majority leader, to endorse arming toddlers on camera. The Trump ice cream gloves, you pitched the current president on a 7-minute pitch on gloves that wouldn't stick while eating ice cream. the nude fight in the hotel. And I've asked you this in person. I see this stuff, I can't get over, and I mean this sincerely, how fearless you are. Whether it's walking around in a thong, whether it's—

Which Scott would like to do.

Or showing up—

By the way, he'd look great.

There you go. Or showing up to a fairly uncomfortable wedding where you lift the veil and it's a man of a very, very conservative officiant. And I— 99.99% of people would just never agree to do this thing. And other than the compliment here, as you have gotten older, and I see this with a lot of artists, they kind of lose their mojo and their fearlessness because they have families, because they start to better understand the guardrails of society. Talk about the relationship between being fearless and as you've gotten older, and if and how it has changed.

Well, I don't think I'm fearless. I am terrified. but I have the ability to overcome my fear. So, I did a movie called Bruno where I'm playing this gay Austrian fashion reporter. At the end of the movie, there's a cage fight, and I know that it's going to be very dangerous. We'd been advised by a variety of security guards that it would be impossible to get out without going to hospital. And we hired the one guy who had an idea. You're going into something like that, you know there's real danger. There's a chance that you end up in hospital. And it's terrifying. You'd have to be completely detached from reality to not have fear. But I have the ability to overcome it in the moment. And once I'm in character, I don't really feel the fear, which can be a little bit dangerous. We did a— sequel to Bullrat that you mentioned Giuliani's in. There was a gun rights rally, and I'm on stage as Bullrat singing this song called The Wuhan Flu. What we're going to do, inject them with the Wuhan flu. And everyone in the audience had semi-automatics. I was wearing a bulletproof vest, which I remember sticking it on in the morning and looking in the bathroom, putting on the bulletproof vest and thinking, This is not a normal job.

Why can't I be like my friend, Larry David, and go and play golf? And then once I'm actually in character, I'm not scared, which in that case, it got to be dangerous because I decided to do another take because usually there's only one take that we can use. And I thought, I'm on stage. Let me sing this song again. The crowd went really crazy, stormed the stage, I got chased down and surrounded by some angry, gun-toting people. So, I do feel the fear. Why did I do it this time? Because firstly, I feel this obligation to make my fans laugh and laugh really hard, and I love making them laugh. And the second thing is I'm worried about where the world is headed. And I don't like to be a celebrity and virtue signal, but the way I make comments is through movies. And these lies, the hate, and the conspiracies that are spread on social media platforms and now metastasize through AI, I wanted to show that they potentially lethal consequences.

Right. Which I think a lot of people are coming around to these recent, you know, the $25 billion at Facebook, the $17 billion. It's something you and I talked about a long time ago in an interview. One of the things Scott was getting at was how do you make satire work when reality becomes more outrageous than ever? Just this week, Putin got called a humanitarian. Trump said New Mexico should change its name to New America, and that's just Tuesday. And he also seems fixated on his senators. I mean, how do you do that? How do you decide what is outrageous enough? Because life seems outrageous.

I think satire is you look at something that you're trying to uncover that hasn't been said at that point. So, in— I think it was 2001 or 2002, I went into a bar as Borat and sang, Throw the Jew down the well. And they sang along. And at that point, it was seen as deeply revealing. Look at the underbelly of antisemitism in America. It was shocking. I mean, if I did that now, it would not be interesting at all because obviously antisemitism has increased. So satire is, as a satirist, you continually need to look at what is the thing that you are trying to shine a light on or trying to uncover? And yes, you know, we have a different type of president now. We're transitioning into authoritarianism. It doesn't mean that there aren't things that are worth uncovering. And I believe in this movie, it is shocking that people come out of it and they cannot believe the things that they see—

People will do.

People do.

You got to get people to do. Yeah. Yeah. Although this week with Vivek Ramaswamy, that happened. It was just like, you can't even believe it. But talk about— but people in the beginning, it was, what's funny about Donald Trump? and mockable. 2 things. From your perspective, is he still funny and mockable, someone like Donald Trump? Or has it just gotten curdled into this sort of daily ugliness, essentially? And one of the things you just referenced, you called social media, and I'll never forget this, you were one of the first people I interviewed who was sort of in the movie industry to talk about this. You called it the greatest propaganda machine in history and AI its monstrous child. Who do you see as a bigger danger? Is it Donald Trump or the combination of the two?

I think it's the combination of the two. I don't think democracy is compatible with social media. And I actually, many years ago, tried to speak to all the heads of the tech companies to warn them about that, thinking, oh, they would realize that and they would care. And then I realized actually they were completely disinterested in protecting democracy.

And then showed up at Donald Trump's table every week, essentially. Yes.

I mean, when the political system you're in changes, then it's unsurprising that major corporations will behave like they would do in a different political system. But I think it's not just— the thing about Donald Trump is, it's a controversial comment, he is amusing. He is the— I mean, The Economist used this term, the comiticians. There is a huge amount of comedy in the way he speaks. He's intentionally being funny. And if you have a look at a lot on the far right, they use comedy, they use sarcasm, they're being funny, and it's an engaging way to dismiss criticisms. So yes, he is, we can laugh at him, but— He's entertaining. And that was the thing that I think we talked about last time as well, was very early on, we started noticing in 2019 that social media was spreading stuff that was interesting, whether it was funny or outrageous or inciting hatred or violence. And the stuff that was not funny or boring or truthful, as we know, it had this resistance.

Yeah.

And I remember speaking to a whistleblower from Facebook who was telling me that in the election, 2016 election, they charged depending on the virality of the advert. And basically, Trump's adverts were a lot more viral and Hillary's were a lot more sticky. So they cost a lot more. So therefore at that point I realized, oh well, you are going to win an election if you are saying outrageous things, if you're saying lies. So fundamentally the two are incompatible. And go and see my movie.

Well, no, but yes, it's that.

My partner's just in the corner going, what are you talking about?

No, but it is, that's what this movie is about. I'm going to have to call you a C-word again. Well, okay, you're a cunt. But the movie is about that. It is. It is truly about that.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It is about what's the most outrageous thing that can happen, and it just continues to get more outrageous over time. And then Ali G sees that what he's done is damaging, right? You have a bit of a revelation in this movie.

Yeah. I mean, you know, in all of these movies, the main characters have a transformation, but it's about kind of 10%. If they transform too much, they're not funny anymore. But really we're showing what— because people go, okay, we're in— it's very hard to stop for a moment and think, where are we headed? And I think we're in this world of virtuous violence where people believe that they can hate, that they can attack certain ethnic or religious or groups or women or People who are vulnerable, and it's virtuous. And what I wanted to share at the end of the movie, while still being really funny, and it is hilarious for those people listening, watching, is that we could take intelligent people and turn them into murderers in a matter of hours because they believed in a conspiracy theory that had been spread by a leader on social media.

Right. Absolutely. Scott?

So raised in a middle-class family, and people, a lot of people don't know this about you, you found your way to Cambridge, which as someone who lives in London, trust me, that is not easy. That involves a lot of achievement. And then you graduated. I would imagine your parents, your career counselor, your peers probably didn't say, okay, you should go dress up as a drug dealer and go to Wimbledon. And, and like, What was the moment getting outta Cambridge where you thought, I could actually do this? I could actually— when did that happen? And then my second question going to the other end is, where do you want to be in 10 years? Like what would, what would feel good for you in terms of purpose and feeling satisfied? Something you, you look to achieve or where you want to be in 10 years?

Okay. So the first question, yeah, I studied history at Cambridge. I did my undergraduate thesis on Jewish involvement in the Black civil rights movement. That went really well and I got asked to do a PhD in Cambridge and Oxford. It's completely corrupt. You can skip doing your master's. You get an automatic master's for, I think it's for £100. It's a complete— if anyone ever has a degree that says MA Cantab or Oxon, it's a fake degree. So I was asked to do a PhD. I started it. I was a couple of days in. It was on Jewish involvement in Black civil rights movements, looking at the American civil rights movement and the South African one and seeing was there something about Jewish radicalism. 2 days in, I got really bored. I was in the library. None of my mates were there. None of the people that I fancied were there. I stopped it. A bunch of management consultants came to university, and they were looking for good students to become management consultants or work in the city. And I was like, no, I want to be an actor. I assumed immediately— I'd been playing Fiddler on the Roof as my last play in Cambridge.

I thought, I'm going to go to the West End. I'm going to be the understudy of Topol, who at that point was playing it in the West End, and it's going to work. Look, I got out of university, and I couldn't even get an audition. My English, my accent was not quite posh enough to get cast. I thought I had a pretty good voice. I couldn't get cast in a musical. I was completely unemployed and gave myself 5 years to make some form of a living out of it. And really, I had my break about 4 years and 11 months into it.

it.

As far as going onto the second question, 10 years' time, I've got no idea. I've never really had much of a career plan. I came out of Cambridge, I thought, can I make a living? Almost failed. Ali G happened and suddenly really became an overnight sensation. A lot of that was to do with technological advances that I was doing sketches, skits that were 3 minutes long. And at that point, you could attach by email something about 3 minutes long. So it went super fast, super big. And then after that, I was like, wow, I'm a comedian now. This is incredible. This is my dream. Then I had a new dream, which was, could I make one excellent comedy film? And I made the first Ali G film, which I wasn't really happy with. I was trying to do like a Farrelly Brothers film. And then I made Borat, and then I was like, wow, I've done it. So I don't really know. I mean, I'm going now to do a play in the West End written and directed by Quentin Tarantino, and hopefully that's going to be really good fun. But I don't really have a 10-year plan.

But let me just go one layer deeper.

Okay, he's got to go.

Distinct to the professional success, you're no longer a young man trying to workshop You've had some success, you have some economic security, you've had a lot of life experience. Like, what are you seeking in 10 years? What will feel as if, you know, or when we get close to the end, what will feel for you?

He's asking for a friend, Sasha.

Listen, this is why I go out with him at 10 o'clock at night. I'm actually trying to find purpose. I'm trying to find the answer.

Oh my God.

This is like a lesbian collective between you.

This is crazy. Yeah. This is like, you know, we're both, this is When you're over 6'3, there's not many people you can see eye to eye with. You're 6'5, aren't you, Scott?

No, good news is I'm shrinking. No, but as we get towards the end and it's gonna come faster than we like.

Yeah. Okay. I'm not that old. Okay. And I'm hoping that with AI we can extend life a little bit.

I know people may not know about this. You're a very spiritual guy. What is it you wanna think? What boxes that you want to have checked, not professionally, As you get older, what is that sense of accomplishment and purpose you're seeking?

So, I mean, I'm not particularly self-aware, but family's very important to me. I do feel it was interesting on this last movie, we didn't include it in the movie, but as Dr. Nairacainen D'Agostello, I interviewed Dr. Fauci for about an hour and off. I was trying to get him to agree with this absurd conspiracy theory about Ali G, and he refused to do it. And it was really— I interviewed him and it was fascinating. And I know he's hated by a huge swathe of the American public, and it was really actually sad to hear his day-to-day life and how he has to hide. But he talked about this idea of public service. And I'm not saying I have that, but I do feel that I have an opportunity, or I should at least try to make the world a slightly more tolerant place. And it's become far more intolerant since I started in this business. At the beginning, it was about making people laugh. I was always interested in the satirical side. And in the '90s, late '90s in England, anathema to bringing anything satirical. The first Borat movie, I showed the movie to one of the heads of Fox, and he said, listen, you've made a comedy and a satire.

Choose which one. You can't have both. And I said, well, I believe I can do a satirical comedy, but why do I put on a bulletproof vest? Why do I make a movie like this that took 3 years that I mean, the final scene really is one of the hardest scenes ever shot in cinematic history. It's an 8-hour continuous shot. There are hundreds of things that can go wrong. There are explosions, somebody gives birth halfway through it, there's drones, there's guns. It's incredibly hard. Each time I did it, it cost $4 million. I lost $3 million of my own money the first time I did it. Why do I do it? And I think it is, I am worried about where we're headed. I think a lot of people are. A lot of people just put their heads down. I have at the moment got a bit of a platform. I don't know how many people will see this movie, but I want them to stop and think and I want them to say, hold on, we're heading down towards this path. This idea that that every idea is equal. And this new reinvention of freedom of speech by these tech billionaires who are completely disinterested in freedom of speech, they're completely using this term as a way to make money essentially, is very dangerous because it's nothing to do with freedom of speech.

It's these vile conspiracies, these hates and these lies that get pushed out. And it affects what people do.

That is correct.

Like, January—

Spit it out, sister.

Yeah, no, but January the 6th, I always talk— I remember in England, people were like, oh, it's disgusting. I go, it's not disgusting. If you really believed that democracy was being destroyed and an election had been stolen, why wouldn't you storm the Capitol and protect democracy? It's the lie that's told to them.

Right.

That's very interesting. It's impossible now to distinguish truth from lies.

Well, that is the biggest danger. I think you're absolutely right. Anyway, I just want to point out you've got an interview with Boutros Boutros-Ghali, and I never did, which is fantastic.

Boutros Boutros Boutros Boutros-Ghali.

That's why you got it and I didn't. Sasha Baron Cohen, thank you.

Thank you.

And thank you for being a friend to Scott. He really needs it.

Yeah, he really does. He's very popular.

You guys should do— you should do ketamine and cuddles soon. It would be great. So, uh, the movie is Ali G: Who Is I? It'll be in theaters when this episode drops. It's very funny. We appreciate you being here. Thank you, Sacha.

All right, well, likewise. A huge fan, and a few of us, Scott. I don't like what she's trying to insinuate here, but—

There you go.

There's just a couple of tall men with a bit of—

Anything for the movie.

Yeah.

Anything for the prem.

A lot of feels. Anyway, thank you, Sacha.

All right, okay. Thank you very much.

Bye.

Thanks, Rob.

Scott, I like your friend. All right, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

Today Explained producer Denise Guerra wanted to make a show about Susan Collins.

But Today Explained host Sean Ramaswamy was like...

Boring!

But then Denise said... She's like a ninja! Susan Collins is not Denise's beat, though, so we asked Alex Seitz-Wald from Maine's Midcoast Villager. He's writing about her race, which could decide the balance of the United States Senate. Ninja would not be the first thing that comes to mind when I think about Susan Collins, but actually pretty good comparison.

She's quiet. She is flexible. She's quick.

She can do things that seem impossible. She's lasted a lot longer than any Republican in New England or a blue state like her. Susan Collins is a ninja. On the 2,000th episode of Today, Explained from Vox. Monday to Friday afternoons, wherever you listen. Except YouTube, but that's like where you watch, right? Kinda? Thanks.

Hi, it's Phoebe Judge, host of Criminal. I'm going on tour. If you like hearing me tell stories about people, well, I've decided to tell stories about my life and the people I love.

A letter was left carelessly around, so I was sort of caught red-handed.

It's a show about secrets and forgiveness. I hope you'll come see it. Find all our tour dates and get tickets at thisiscriminal.com/live.

I'm Seth Matlins, and on this week's episode of Create or Destroy: Reimagining Marketing, my guest is Starbucks Global Chief Brand Officer Tressie Lieberman, who was hired after the company's drift from its core values and core experience led to a 38% drop in its stock price, and who spent the time since rebuilding what this drift cost them and their customers. Tressie's mad honest about how convenience became so dominant that coffee, craft, community, and connection— the things that had justified the brand's premium— repeated until the experiences felt totally transactional and the soul of the company was hard to find. Create or Destroy. It's a business show, a marketing show, and it's the show that argues they've always been the same thing. From The Wisdomist Company and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. Can I just go first?

I just— can I?

The bankruptcy of Character AI. Couldn't have happened to a nicer company. And the reason they did it, it's part of a deal to acquire its technology and hire most of its staff. Disney is doing this. I don't think it's fully done yet, but it's trying to avoid the startup's legal liabilities, which include parents who are suing because it's a shitty, heinous product. And I don't like all the machinations to get out of the technology stuff, but Disney of all companies, given how it's characterized history, and also Disney had an issue with them using Disney characters. Um, in any case, so glad you're gone, Character AI. So that's all I have to say.

Yeah, basically a prepackaged bankruptcy where they got the people and they got the technology and the shareholders got wiped out.

Including the founder. Yeah, the founder's now the chief technologist at Disney, I think. One of them.

There you go. Uh, so my prediction is I'm predicting that If you had to pick one company, that one AI, who is the one? Who gets to sit on the iron throne? I think a lot of people would say realistically it's going to be Nvidia. My prediction is something different. I think the winner of AI, and I'm not happy about this, but I just look at the metrics and the data. I think the winner of AI is going to be Meta. And my buddy Whitney Tilson forwarded me this, and it just like, you know, occasionally you read something, you're like, oh God, that just resonates. It's so true. Let's talk about Meta. It's got a real moat. Meta's AI strategy is just, it's bearing fruit. You look at the numbers and just, and I realize this is anecdotal evidence, I can't get over how addictive this product has become. I just think that their ability to serve you the right content at the right moment, is striking. And they are either the biggest or the second biggest spender on AI right now. And I think it's the best example of how to get ROI on AI.

So leading models, Meta is arguably at parity according to certain evaluators with Anthropic and OpenAI in terms of the quality of their LLM. It's got unmatched distribution, Kara. They have direct relationships with 500 million businesses. They're already in, they already have a direct relationship with 500 million businesses, which the other kind of frontier model startups don't have. They have thousands. And they can credibly build an agent-to-agent network starting with their 3 billion daily active users and 500 million businesses. The app Muse, Cruise is at the top or near the top of downloaded apps. It's free. And you're gonna see this agentic layer that everyone from Benioff to Wired have been talking about where your agentic travel vehicle is gonna go talk to every agent from Delta or the Hilton and figure out your travel. No one is better positioned to pull this off because they already—

Why Apple?

Apple isn't really going that hard at AI.

I know it isn't. I'm just saying Apple is positioned.

Apple is positioned. Yeah, but I don't—

they—

I think they're sitting this one out and it might be the right move.

Yeah.

And they're gonna, in my opinion, they're gonna pull a search and just license it to the highest bidder and take advantage of the cheap capital.

I just bought the Duo, by the way.

So they, in my view, they can build that agent-to-agent network starting with their 3 billion users and 500 million businesses. Muse is talking directly to Business Muse via personal agent protocol, huge moat and revenue unlock potential. Muse is moving to a confidential voicemail where even Meta can't see content, which should assuage some privacy concerns.

There were some leaks of some of the—

And also, you just got to give it to the guy. I think he's a sociopath. But I think arguably he's the best executor in modern-day business.

Yeah, he's kind of the Gates. Remember when Gates had that title?

So you have, you have the technology, the capital that this requires that few companies can keep up with, and then a built-in audience of 500 million businesses and 3 billion consumers. This all translates to compounding advantage.

And also the energy. He really does, his competitive energy. He really, it's sustained. He hasn't lost a step in that regard. You know, he still is aggressive and Sort of insecure as ever, which sort of fuels some of it, I think.

I just, I, anyways, my prediction is the following.

It's important to be like that.

My prediction is the following, that in 3 years we're going to look at the AI age and we're going to say who won. And everyone right now is saying, well, it's between, the big winner will either be Anthropic, OpenAI, Nvidia is the safe one for everybody. I think the surprise winner of AI is Meta.

Can I make a counter? I think it's going to be Google.

You think it's going to be Google? I think I think that's a fair one too, but for similar reasons.

It's just being more utilitarian about using it. And I had a really interesting interview with Reed Hastings yesterday. He's on the board of Anthropic, by the way, has left Netflix a while ago and now, and he's left as chairman and now he's running a ski mountain, which is kind of funny. But one of the things he said, I think, you know, it doesn't, Google is, he said, I was asking him about the problems with AI and the imagery of it, like, because the PR is pretty bad. And he said, once it becomes useful to people and that stuff will fall away eventually as long as we provide correct guardrails. He's been a big Democratic supporter, but, and he's correct. I think whoever is more useful is going to win. And he was talking about utilitarian. And when Facebook started, Mark got a lot of criticism for calling Facebook a utility. And I thought he was dead right to call it that because MySpace was fun. He said, we're a utility. And I think whoever is the utility of And it could be, it could be Apple. They'll probably do it more creatively. Could be Google or, and Facebook is the other.

You're absolutely right. Those are the 3. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. And reminder, Scott and I are hitting the road in a few weeks for the 2nd annual Pivot Tour.

That's right.

We're going out. Go to pivottour.com for tickets. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is fast-growing. We'll be back next week.

Today's show was produced by Lara Namenszweig, Marcus Taylor-Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie Nertad engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Brosmeier, Severian Dan Shalon, and Kate Gallagher. Nishad Kuras, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next week. week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great weekend.