Transcript of Keri Russell on ‘The Diplomat,’ Powerful Women, and Loving the Mess

I wanted to be a spy, actually.

Who doesn't?

I really did. I could still be one, and you don't know it.

You could still be one.

I could still be one.

You have a great cover now. You would've been so good, actually.

Maybe.

Negotiating.

Maybe not. Maybe we would've been at war with, like—

Everyone.

Like Luxembourg.

Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Today, I'm talking to Keri Russell. She's the star and executive producer of the critically acclaimed Netflix series, The Diplomat, created by West Wing and Homeland veteran Deborah Kahn. Season 4 premieres today. And spoiler alert, if you haven't seen the series yet, we'll be talking about seasons 1 through 3. Keri plays Ambassador Kate Wyler, a career Foreign Service officer who's plucked from the background and appointed ambassador to the UK, a high-profile role that initially seems softer and more cerebral than she'd prefer. But Kate's experience and diplomacy skills are quickly tested as she faces one geopolitical crisis after another. At the same time, she's navigating a complex marriage to her husband, former Ambassador Hal Wyler, played by Rufus Sewell, who is a charming and ambitious political strategist. Kerry has received 3 Emmy nominations for her role in The Diplomat. Prior to this, she had an acclaimed 6-season run as the star of The Americans, where she played a 1980s Cold War KGB spy living undercover in the US with her husband. Played by her real-life partner, Matthew Rhys.

Keri's big breakout, of course, was Felicity, a network drama about an earnest and bright college student coming of age in New York City. I really want to talk to Keri Russell because I think she's one of these enduring actors who has really enveloped roles that she's been in. She's very poignant in many ways, and at the same time, portrays really complex women, which I think is really important today. Our expert question today comes from none other than former US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. So stick around.

I'm Ina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We talk all about attending a fashion show in Paris together, throwing dinner parties, and making her Broadway debut in other desert cities. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

Hi, Sue Bird here. I've got another brand-new episode of Bird's Eye View for you this week. Joining me on the pod is Washington Mystics point guard Georgia Amor, We talk about the lessons she learned from the Mystics' first playoff push since 2023, making the most of her skillset given her size, and what it would mean to make the Australian national team. Check out Bird's Eye View on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

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Carrie, thanks for coming on On.

Thanks for having me.

So explain how we met. We met— I wrote you a fan letter.

You wrote me a fan letter.

I wrote you a fan letter.

but it was on AOL.com, and I thought it was fake.

That's right.

I thought it was fake, and I didn't respond. And one of your showrunners for The Diplomat said, Keri wrote you a note, and you didn't respond. And I said, that's not a real Keri Russell.

Yeah, I wrote— I think I wrote you and Scott. I wrote Pivot, the fan. I just said, you guys are great. It was a couple of years ago, or last year or something?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, a couple years ago.

Yeah.

And from my AOL account.

I know.

Is that—

You still have your AOL?

I still do. Me and the grandmothers. Oh, wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

Amazing. Amazingly, Matthew, my guy, also has AOL.

I've heard he's your guy. I've heard he's your guy. He also has an AOL. And you use them and you proudly use them.

Proudly. Yeah.

You're trying to make it cool again.

Yeah. We know nothing about tech. We like zero. And the AOL fits right in. Yeah, it's perfect.

I love it. I do still have my AOL accounts, but I don't use them.

You still keep them?

Yeah. I have a better one at Gmail because my ex-wife was one of the creators of Gmail.

So, you got one right away. Yeah.

Anyway, I appreciate it. It's nice to meet you in person.

Nice to meet you in person.

So, I'm thrilled you're here. And I was just telling you, I watched the whole season 4, and I'm— we can't talk too much. We don't want to— it's a lot of plot spoilers.

It is a lot of plot spoilers.

But let me tell you, it's a lot. But let's start earlier. You played complicated women. They're all complicated women, essentially. Felicity, who was complicated in her own sort of nerdy, sweet way. Elizabeth Jennings, an undercover Soviet spy in The Americans, who was complicated in kind of a mean way. And Murder, of course, and Ambassador Kate Wyler on The Diplomat. Vulture described Kate as a hyper-competent hot mess.

I accept.

Is there a through line that you've drawn or ultimately focus in on?

I think my only through line is the writing. I think that's what interests me most. In all 3 of those shows, I think that's the real star of the show is the writing. It was J.J. Abrams. It was Joe and Joel for The Americans. And And then Deborah Kahn, who is just exceptional.

But in your characters, are you trying for anything or just different every time?

I think I'm just looking for something relatable or some world that I want to explore. It usually is some combination of funny and serious. And I want to recognize the people.

Well, they're nuanced, actually.

Yes.

They're really unusual.

One of the reasons I like them is because they're complex people who— Are not any one thing.

Yeah. No. Which most people are.

Yes, they are.

But often females are not portrayed that way.

Often.

Yes.

You know, either they're harpies or stupid or, you know, instead—

Or like embarrassingly perfect at everything.

Right?

That's just not the way life is.

Yeah. What attracted you to each of the roles? I mean, the first one was the big opportunity, right? As a young actor.

Yeah.

I was a kid. I was like 21, I think. Yeah. And that was just, yeah, I had read that script. I thought it was really funny. And it was so sweet. It's such a sweet little poem of a story of this, like, sweet time in college. And it's still sweet now. And now Netflix is, like, re-airing them all, which is hilarious.

I bet.

Yes.

And great. But J.J. and Matt Reeves, who directed that, they've gone on, obviously, to do incredible things. So they were really, like, talented artists too. And then The Americans was just such a I mean, that character was awesome. So completely different than me. So much cooler and sexier and dark. And that was just such a departure and so fun to do that. And this is probably the closest to me, but The Diplomat. But again, it's just a world that I'm interested in. It's fictional, but it's just adjacent enough to things that I am interested in in the world. And it just— she reminds me, the character reminds me of my friends that I see. They're a mess. They're smart. They're funny. They're all the things.

Right.

You remind me of a couple of people I know in the diplomatic corps.

Absolutely.

So we're going to talk about Diplomat. But let's talk about the beginning. I'm not sure people know this that well. You were cast in the all-new Mickey Mouse Club in high school alongside co-stars Justin Timberlake, Ryan Gosling, and Britney Spears. But you said you didn't grow up desperate to be an actress and you're pretty introverted. So why did you audition then? And Why did you stick with it? What did you take away from being a Disney kid?

I mean, I was a dancer. That's the only thing I'm really trained in. And I just went with a bunch of my dance friends to, like, a big, you know, one of those casting calls you hear about where there's, like, 300 kids waiting outside to— I just went with my friends and happened to get it. My parents knew nothing about this world, and I just did it. It was so— we We did it in the summers, and we filmed it at Disney World. And—

In Florida.

In Florida. It was just— it was amazing. It was just like, what a wild, weird little teenage thing. And luckily, I would do it for the most part in the summer, and then I'd go back to school. So it was just like a little dipping your toe in it kind of thing.

When you think back on it, I mean, the group you were with, too.

They were— when I was 17, they were 12. So the really famous kids were a step younger. You know, when you're 17 and 12, there's a big difference. They were wildly talented. Like, honestly, I can't sing. I can sort of dance. But those kids were like— it was very clear. And I guess, I don't know, it was so long ago. And when you're a kid, you're just sort of— you remember things differently too. I don't know. I was still thinking about, like, who I had a crush on. You know, I wasn't thinking like, oh, I hope I'm going to be a great actress or something. I was like, oh, I want to make out with that guy, or, you know, whatever. It wasn't— I wasn't serious about that stuff. But it was a good entrée into this, like, crazy adventure of a lifetime.

Right. So you were in your early 20s when you got Felicity. You won a Golden Globe for your performance the first season. The show has now found new life in the streaming era. Why do you think the show resonates? I mean, I It was an important part of my younger period of life.

It was?

Yeah, sure.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

I don't know.

There wasn't much on that was good.

Right. It was sort of whimsical and like— no, you know what? I think—

Freaks and Geeks was the other one.

That was—

yeah.

I think it was— it's just about a time when things aren't decided yet. And that's such a sweet time. I have teenagers now, and we were talking about one of the friends one of the boys was, like, falling in love with somebody. And we were like, oh my God. Like, even getting your heart broken, it's just such a— and everything feels so big and beautiful. And I think that's why the show, it's about that time when things are so enormous and not destroyed or cynical yet.

Right. Although it's harder for college students now. Well, of course. It's a very different world.

It's a whole other thing.

Because they've grown up under Trump for— Their whole life.

I know. Can you—

I'm trying to think what defined our lives. 9/11. Before that.

Before that. So maybe it's like this little stuck-in-time little show. We didn't have phones. We didn't have any of that.

No, not at all.

Not at all. Thank God.

Yeah, I know. Exactly. Do you watch it again? I know you did a little cute social media thing on it.

I haven't seen it in a long time. No. I don't watch it. But I mean, my kids have never seen it. I tried to get my— I have 3 kids and my middle is a girl. And over COVID, I said, you know, you might like this show. And she was like, ugh, no, Mom, no.

My kids do too.

They're like, no.

Yeah, I do that. I'm like, I interviewed someone and they're— so I finally am like interviewing people they like so they'll listen to it. Right? But no, they don't listen to me at all. But are you going to watch it?

I'd watch it. I'd watch it if Willow wants to watch it. But yeah, because it's, it's so long ago that I have some distance.

Yeah. So then you— your next big series was Into the Americans, which was created by a former CIA agent, Joe Weisberg, and Joel Fields, as you said, set in the Cold War era of the 1980s. And this character was Elizabeth Jennings, and a very deeply devoted KGB spy who's adept at spycraft. Very adept and cold.

Very cold.

And cold.

Yeah.

That last scene, I have to say, in Moscow, just killed me.

Just that—

the train station was, but then the last scene.

Where you're like, oh, this is it.

Yeah, this is it.

Yeah.

You've joked that you're not sure why they cast you as the lead in that show. And do you understand why you were cast? Do you have a better—

Yeah. John Landgraf, who runs FX, who's so interesting as a head of a studio network, he Said— well, I think it was his idea, actually, because he wanted it to be someone who looked like the person next door, the girl next door, but then had all this training. And I think I was a good fit for that because you think I'm going to be Felicity or something like that, and then you end up being not. Very not.

Murderous Felicity.

Yeah.

Murderous. 100% blown-out hair and high-heeled shoes and cat eyeliner.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was amazing.

When you think about how that arc went, what do you remember? Obviously, you met your husband there.

Yeah.

And wait, I don't know.

You're married.

We're not married.

That's right.

Living in sin.

That's okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I love—

I like it like that. Yeah.

Yeah. You don't need paper.

I don't need paper.

I don't need paper.

I don't need it. Yeah. No.

Only gay people want to get married and go in the military.

What is everyone doing? I know.

I know.

Well, you got remarried.

You've been married twice. I'm a married girl.

I'm a remarried lady. Yeah, I am.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't care about it.

I wanted to go in the military too. I'm just telling you, gays are not the only people that want those 2 things.

It's so true.

It's so true. But when you think about that experience, how do you remember it? And why do you think it hit? Because 6 seasons is a lot.

It is a lot. And, you know, it's not— it was sort of a slow-moving show. It was really kind of cerebral and slow and sexy. And I don't know, it was just unlike anything else. And I'm surprised in a way that it hit. I think the smart critics really liked it, and that helped us. Like, I don't think we ever had, in the beginning, good ratings. And then the right people were writing about us. And I think that helped.

Right.

So we had like this slow burn of a following. But It's also anytime you have the luxury of looking back on a period, it's just, it's so interesting because you can go, oh yeah, that's, that's what was really going on. And, you know, make it bigger or smaller or fictionalize a few things. But so you're getting to relive certain things. And I think that was an appeal too.

You also allowed her to be very cold and calculating. I mean, I think I started to really hate you when you killed that lady in the auto, that I don't remember her name. I was so upset at you.

I mean, it was— but it was so fun. It was so fun to get to do that. And Joe and Joel always said they wanted her to really follow this— there was some feminist rule book. I'm trying to think what it was based off of, where every single character choice for Elizabeth they followed it. Like, she didn't make a decision for anyone other than herself, not for her family, not for— it was always, you know, what she wanted to do. And they also based a lot of her earlier things on Gloria Steinem. Like, that's the reason they had her dating this, like, kind of that Black Panther character. I think that was the first season. Yeah, it was an amazing job.

Complex lady.

Oh, my God.

So, after 6 seasons of The Americans, you took some really distinct roles. You had a stint on Broadway with Adam Driver in Burn This. You later joined him in the Star Wars film playing spice runner named Zorii Bliss in The Rise of Skywalker.

A little small part, but it was just how fun.

Zorii Bliss.

Oh, my God.

That would be my complete hotel name. Yeah.

Porn name. That's the other porn name.

Porn name.

Porn name is your dog and the street you grew up on. Right. What would your porn name be?

Mine was a cat, so it was Felina Grandview.

Oh, nice.

What's yours? Prudence. Prudence Glenwood.

That's so good.

That's Long Island. But you also starred in a raucous horror comedy, Cocaine Bear, directed by Elizabeth Banks, which was a wild ride. What were you looking for? Anything new when the script for The Diplomat came along? Or what drew you to that role?

It was just Deborah's writing.

Because these are all different.

Yeah, it was Deborah's writing. And I loved the banter between the husband and the wife. I loved their, like, no-holds-barred, like, crazy, acerbic fighting relationship. And that world interests me. I didn't know that much about the Foreign Service. I didn't know that much about diplomats. They're so fascinating. They're the smartest, curious, and they also have this great, need for travel, like an adventure. It just satisfies a lot of things that I'm interested in.

Yeah, I tried to be in the diplomatic corps, but I, I was gay at the time and I couldn't get in. You could still do it. I'm not gonna do it.

You don't need to do anything.

I wanted to be a spy, actually.

Who doesn't?

I mean, I really did. I could still be one and you don't know it.

You could still be one.

I could still be one.

You have a great cover now.

But I, I went to the Foreign Service School at Georgetown. Did you really? So I think a lot about a different life, you know, sort of like Sliding Doors kind of thing. Which would have been interesting.

You would have been so good, actually, negotiating.

Maybe not. Maybe we would have been at war with, like, Luxembourg.

Why Luxembourg? Why?

Because I wanted to say something rude to you. So I'm gonna play a clip from The Diplomat. This is from the first episode of season 3. Vice President Grace Penn, played by Allison Janney, who's—

The best.

...is about to become Commander-in-Chief following the sudden death of the president. Kate is trying to persuade Grace to do his swearing-in at the American Embassy in London, not Winfield House, the ambassador's plush residence in Regent's Park. Let's listen.

It's formal.

It's a ceremonial space.

Podium, couple flags, we're good to go. Or the embassy. The move is a risk. The embassy's a fortress with Marines and a moat.

Based on her analysis of my safety, she would strongly prefer no move.

The embassy is granite slabs and soaring ceilings and a 12-foot eagle on the wall. It is a not-at-all subtle monument to American power. Ma'am, we're not swearing you in in front of 18th-century hand-painted wallpaper. It makes you look like someone's granny.

We're going to do it at the embassy.

Before becoming ambassador, your character, Kate, was used to being behind the scenes. By season 3, she's definitely more comfortable in her role. So, What is so quintessentially Kate in this scene? How did you add to it as an actor?

So much is on the page. Deborah is such a specific writer. She's so detail-oriented.

Yes, she is.

And I love that. I love the messiness.

It's very detailed, specific.

It's so specific. I mean, as I said, she was a writer on West Wing and Homeland.

And so, is it challenging for you as an actor when doing this kind of detailed, specific dialogue, or do you love that?

It's muscular dialogue, for sure. I wish I had 30 years of diplomatic experience, so it would certainly make this a lot easier. But for me, I love how she's taking this really important world, but then making it about the minutiae of every day. You know, you're mad at your husband or wife, or you didn't eat, or you spilled something on your thing, and now you're embarrassed. Or, you know, you're sweating, and you're embarrassed about that. I love the physicality of Kate. I really love that part of her. And I love that she's always kind of getting in over her head, kind of in that Holly Hunter Broadcast News way. That's what I really love about her.

But totally competent. So, not really getting in over her head.

Right.

Well—

Smarter than everyone else in the room.

She thinks so.

Yeah. That line from Broadcast News is exactly, how does it feel to be You know, as far as— it's so exact.

It's so hard.

It's so hard, right? It's awful, actually. Yeah.

Or something like that.

Yeah.

When you're doing all that very specific dialogue, I mean, of course, you have The West Wing, where Deborah worked, and you have— that was famous for that. There's a couple of shows like that where there's very complex language that is highly specific.

It takes practice. We watch everyone come on the show, and there's a learning curve. You know, and people stumble and I just go, stay in it. Don't give up. Like, I'm here with you. Let's just keep going. Because people don't talk like that all the time. You know, it's a skill. It's this trained thing that your mind and your whole thing has to kind of get used to. And everyone sort of is wobbly at first and it takes practice.

How did you get more?

I struggle all the time, especially, you know, the older I get, like, it's harder to remember things. But just practice. Just practice. I write it down sometimes.

I am firmly of the belief that audiences like smarter dialogue than we think.

I agree. I agree.

You know, that's how I do my podcast, everything else. It's much more prepared, substantive. When you have something this complex, were you worried at all?

That it would be too dense?

Yeah. It's not like Lioness. No.

No.

No. It's— no.

I mean, I think it's a good combination of snackable substance. You know, it has a little fluff. It has, like, fights in bushes and things.

Right.

But it is full of substance. Deborah broke down a scene one time for something, and she says, there's a system. You introduce the difficult idea, then a little bit further on, you introduce it again. So, the first time, audiences are sort of like, oh, what was that? I don't quite grasp everything. But then the second time, It's introduced again. Oh, I caught a little bit more of it. And then you introduce it the third time, and then everyone's caught up.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah. Huh.

Yeah.

So there's an actual, like, system to it.

Yeah.

You're not supposed to grasp everything right at the beginning.

Right, right, right. And you're trying— that's sort of very chess-like, the discussions, even the personal relationship ones.

Definitely.

And I'll tell you, this season is all straight people processing. Like, I've never— they never process like this. I'm sorry. No straight people I know process like this.

I know!

It's so great!

I felt like it was a lesbian collective.

I love it.

It's like, you're all lesbians, each of you. And I don't like to process like that, so it was funny. But especially you and your husband.

It's a lot of processing.

Rufus. A lot.

A lot.

A lot. I'm like, stop talking about your relationship. Just have it.

I know!

Just do it! Yeah, I know. There's like 16-page scenes about it.

Yeah, exactly. We'll be back in a minute.

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Now, every episode we get a question from an outside expert, and I apologize in advance for this one.

Why would you apologize?

Here's yours.

Bring it on.

Take a look.

Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton. I used to be Secretary of State. I know a lot of diplomats, and I have a question, or maybe 2 or 3 for Keri Russell, who stars in The Diplomat. Honestly, where are you getting these ideas? Who goes and pulls a dress out of a drawer and wears it to Buckingham Palace? I don't know about that. Or every time you show up, something seems to explode. Honestly, Keri, I do appreciate you bringing attention to being a Foreign Service officer and serving our country, which is a a pretty cool thing to do. But you have put badass into ambassador, that's for sure.

Epic! Oh my gosh, Deborah's gonna lose her fucking mind. I'll take you to coffee after this. Oh my gosh, that's so great. You know, I met Secretary Clinton when we were filming in London at Ambassador Hartley when she was there. So dignitaries come come through London and often will have dinner at Winfield House, or they'll prepare, or it'll be a stopover on the way to a flight or something. And so Secretary Clinton was passing through, and Jane Hartley said—

This is the former ambassador.

Former ambassador. She said, Hillary, do you want a dinner? Do you want us to, you know? And she said, yeah, I want a dinner of 20 really smart, funny women. And I got to go, which is unfuckingbelievable.

There was—

it was so— it was, you know, female editor of The Guardian.

She's amazing.

Female editor of FT.

Another amazing woman.

It was that amazing Australian prime minister. It was all of these— Christiane Amanpour, who sat next to me. I mean, it was so—

Tara.

It was the best.

It was like one of the best nights of my life, just sitting there and Hillary just having this robust, fun, frank conversation. It was just—

She's different in a room, isn't she?

She's so warm. She's so funny.

She's so capable.

That's what we're gonna do on this new podcast.

I'm so glad you're doing it. I cannot wait for that.

'Cause people don't know her.

They don't.

They don't. Yeah.

She's—

Yeah, I'm gonna make her the Betty White of politics.

She is. She's so great.

She's so great. But she was joking there. I mean, she wanted to do a joking one.

Oh, that's so good.

But she is like, it's so dramatic. Like, I'm like, Hillary, it's not dramatic. It's a freaking fictional thing. It has to be a little bit.

You have to make it— it has to be popcorn.

Because the UK ambassador doesn't have this much—

She's not, like, sleeping around.

There's not people, like, choking each other. There's not, you know, like that kind of stuff.

It's a TV show.

Yes, it's a TV show.

That's what I said.

It's a TV show. But what were you trying to— because you want to portray someone who's smart, but it also has to have dramatic things.

Right. So you want to seem competent, but you also want it to be funny. And you want it to be— I mean, Was Hillary, you know, taking off her clothes and jumping in a pool to, like, get her point across? Like, I don't know, maybe. She's still got time.

She also wasn't making out with the horned secretary. We don't know that.

We don't know that.

She might have been. I would put my money on it. You would make out with a lot of people on this show.

I make out with a lot of people.

You make out with a lot of people on this show.

I do.

Like, a lot.

I know. A lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know. Less making out this new season. Less—

Less making out.

I know.

More like boring marriage. But because there's bigger fish to fry, I guess.

Correct. That's correct.

Yeah.

Now, it's also a wish fulfillment.

It is. Massive.

You know, of the idea of who stands up and who doesn't, which is really important.

It was really— Yeah. And we don't have to give anything away, but I think A way to say it without giving things away is—

What would you do?

What would you do if your boss, even though you love your country, you love your job so much, but what do you do when your boss asks you to do something you don't agree with that might even be illegal? And how far along do you go before you completely lose yourself?

Or you don't, or you go along. I'm about to interview Jacob Weisberg, who just wrote Profiles in Cowardice. And also at the same time, I'm going to have Michael Lewis, who's written a book about the blockers of Doge, which is 2 different things. It's like, I think right now, we all wonder how— what you're willing to do. I deal with the tech moguls who are constantly acquiescing. It's a really interesting thematic thing, is what do you do? And most people go along.

Because it's hard. It's really hard to not. And everything I love about this show, aside from, like, the fun of it, but the root of, you know, the Foreign Service and like USAID. And those people, I just have such affection for and respect for. And where this season ends, we just— I hope if any of them watch it, that there's just— that they feel recognized, that they feel seen. And especially what happens through line with Stuart's character. You know, he's sort of the moral compass of the show in a way. And for him to go through that whole arc, It's for them. It's for, you know, everything that they've gone through.

Because in past seasons, you've done things on the edge too, at the same time. It's who determines what the edge is and who we are as a people, which is really important, I think. It is a good question. I was just talking to someone recently about, what do we do with all these people who have compromised?

Yeah. What do we do now?

When it's over.

Yeah. 'Cause it's gonna be over. And then what do you do?

I don't know.

You know, I was in a writers' room meeting, we sit in rooms with all these incredible people asking questions. That's your executive producer of this too.

Yeah.

And we were in with one of— an ambassador. And we were like, I know, but what do we do when it's over? And he's like, no, no, it's broken. It's broken.

It is.

He goes, we're going to have to build, rebuild. It's broken. And we were like, ugh.

Easy to break. Hard to fix. Sort of like the link. They're like, you know, easy to break. They're all easy to break. That, I think, has been the biggest lesson of how easy it is to break things.

Yeah. I mean, demolished.

Right.

Which is, I think, you depict really well. Now, you do a lot of research. You've spent time with former Ambassador Jane Hartley, only the second female ambassador to the UK in 200 years.

Isn't that insane?

What'd you learn from talking to these ambassadors?

What's incredible about them is Like, watching Jane operate, she can talk to anybody. She makes everyone feel comfortable. She's so smart. She can follow everything, all the conversations. She knows about everything. She's read everything. And also is, like, really graceful too. Like, they're just really competent, alive people, and they're fun to be around. And it's just fascinating, their specialties, how they choose to— ...use their intellect, their experience. They're just fascinating people.

And how they speak and present themselves.

Yeah.

Now, you just noted you're in the room, you're an executive producer on the show. What does that do for you? Because a lot of people are executive producers. How involved are you from a creative perspective? Like, talk a little bit about what a gray area is like when you're the EP and also the lead.

How is it different? You have to be a good example. You know, you can't be a brat. I mean, not that I would be a brat anyway, but... You know, that's part of it.

You don't treat me as a brat.

Yeah.

You have to, you know, show up. You need to, you know, lead by example. And I don't know, you get to take part in the overall piece more. You know, you're asked questions and you get to help make decisions about who's directing, who's the director of photography.

Why do you want to do that? I think you should.

You just You just have more control over it. Your opinion matters a little bit more.

Is that important for especially a woman?

Yeah. Yeah. I want to— Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You want to have your stamp on it a little bit more, and you want to know that— You know, I don't work all the time. I take long breaks in between. And so you just want to know that when you do work, it's the quality that you want.

Hi, everyone.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Twice a week, we get together on Pivot to sort through the biggest stories in tech, business, and politics.

And we're taking the show back on the road for a live tour in November.

So we'll bring hot takes. I'll bring the insight and the dick jokes, and Kara will try— keyword is try— to keep me in check. You'll get to see her hit me in person live.

I'll do it if someone has to do it.

We'll cover AI, whatever chaos Washington has cooked up that week, and every billionaire misbehaving.

That's all of them.

And you'll also get to participate in audience Q&A.

So bring your best questions. Scott will probably answer ones you didn't We also have secret special guests, which you'll enjoy for every city. Get tickets at pivottour.com. That's pivottour.com.

We are selling out, so don't wait, and we look forward to seeing you.

We will reengage students, alumni, and other members of our community to examine how we preserve what is valuable about Greek life.

That was Cornell University's President Michael Kotlikoff trying to quell some of the anger on his campus in a video address on October 3rd. A few days later, he addressed Cornell's faculty, and what he said has since leaked out to the world, and it's clear that he doesn't want an outright ban on frats. He thinks a ban could make matters worse, driving violent behavior off campus and into the shadows. But clearly, his response wasn't enough for Cornell's community, because today the university announced a ban on frat parties for the rest of the academic year. Cornell also says it's going to experienced sexual assault investigators to their police force. The question is, why didn't this happen 2 years ago when the sexual assault at a campus fraternity was first reported? Or maybe the question remains, why don't we just ban frats? We're gonna ask on Today Explained from Vox, available in your feeds Monday to Friday.

I'm Seth Matlins, and on this week's episode of Create or Destroy: Reimagining Marketing, I'm talking with streetwear legend Jeff Staple. Who in 2005 designed a Nike collab, which was the Pigeon Dunk, that caused a riot, resells for thousands of dollars 21 years later, and gets the credit or blame for bringing sneaker culture to the masses. In our conversation, we talk about why you can't buy your way into culture no matter how big your check, why 40 hours of meetings a week with none of them talking about what the customer actually wants is the most common way he sees businesses destroy value, and why when I asked him what he'd destroy with all the power in the world, Jeff said likes and comments. Because if and comments existed when he started, he never would've made the next thing. Create or Destroy. It's a business show, a marketing show, and the show that argues they've always been the same thing. From The Wisdom Is Company and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Now, Kate's relationship with her husband, former Ambassador Hal Wyler, played by Rufus Sewell, is at the heart of the show. They're fiercely competitive and supportive of each other at the same time, and teetering on the edge of divorce at the start of the series.

All the time, really.

All the time.

All the time.

I was like, just break up.

Just break up.

I know.

It's true.

Emily Nussbaum in The New Yorker called it a tricky marriage. That quote, feels less like a love affair than a NATO negotiation. Talk about that dynamic, and how would you describe the marriage?

It is a tricky one to describe, but I think that's just their language. I think they are— they're a couple that is sort of loosely based on this couple that Deborah knows.

I know.

I think I have an idea who these people are. Yeah.

Yeah.

You definitely know these people. They're based on on this couple that Deborah's really close with. And they are both really passionate, smart people who fight with each other all the time.

And are also career competitive.

Totally. And I just think—

And she started off at a lesser— He was sort of the lion.

I think so. Yeah.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And— And she surpasses him.

Yeah.

And I think the main thing about the relationship is the power is always shifting. So, one year, he's, like, in this really powerful position, and then the next year, suddenly, she's doing something interesting, and he's in the wanting part of it. I think they're fiercely protective of each other, which is a really good quality. And I think, like, their love language is sort of that debating place Political. I think they both want to change the world and be in the room.

Also think they're the ones that have to do it. The ego is enormous.

I think a lot of those people—

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And one of the, I think, almost the saddest thing is their phone conversations. And when they say goodbye, bye.

Click. Yeah. Yeah.

It's really—

It's sharp.

It's sharp.

Yeah.

Really. They're both wounded in a weird way.

Definitely. And I think even if they were to be divorced, they would still be that close. Like, they're just— they're that couple. Which is a really fun— How would you describe it? Like, impossible and great and exciting. And I love their relationship. You know, like, you have that person who, when you see them, they just know everything, and they know what you did and your personal story.

And they know where to get you.

They know where to get you.

And as they often do. They never don't take the opportunity to wound each other.

To wound.

Yeah.

And I think that's— they'll be that forever.

Yeah.

Whether they're together or not.

Yeah. By the way, art is imitating life. The White House just asked Kimberly Guilfoyle to resign as U.S. Ambassador to Greece. I'm sure you based your character on her.

I did. Everything.

Pay my American Express bill!

Could you die?

I mean, you're a crime in plain sight. You can't write it. You can't write it. Crimen in plain sight.

I mean, it's—

Oh, man. Too corrupt for the Trump administration.

That's an interesting—

Wow.

Wow. Oh, her? Oh, that's the one? That's where you're gonna draw the line? That's where they're drawing the line. It's too much!

It's too much.

I won't pay the bill! It's like, oh my God.

How dare you steal money when I should be the one stealing money?

It's so stupid.

Yeah. It is really stupid. Yeah. Exactly.

And of course, they're taking the girl down.

The girl.

Yeah. That's too much.

Yes, exactly.

We can steal money. This is too much.

Not her. Not her.

Not her.

Back to your show. You need a character like that, like a— who's not a career woman.

You should drag one in.

of the friends of the president kind of thing.

Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Now, Kate, speaking of Kate, she does not dress like an ambassador. She's visibly uncomfortable in anything but her black pantsuit. She will put on a dress and heels when she absolutely has to, and immediately take the heels off when she has to move. Talk about the look of the character, 'cause there are definite choices. Costumes and wigs were a big part of your character in The Americans.

It's true.

What were you doing here?

I love that part of the character. I think—

The unmade bed.

I love it. I love it. I think, I think so many women in front-facing positions have to look a certain way, and it's uncomfortable. You know, not everyone wants to dress like that. And I think Kate thinks what she's doing is important, and it has nothing to do with that.

Right.

So she's like, why would I dress like that? I'm here for my ideas.

'Cause she's famous behind the scenes. Yeah.

I'm not here to be, you know, a fashion model or something. And my hair doesn't need to look a certain way. I'm here for my ideas and what I think about things. And I think no matter what job you're in, I think women relate to that. I'm sure some men relate to it, but I think it really hits women. And I love all that stuff. And I think it's very true.

The hair, particularly. The hair.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. Does that— You don't wear your hair like that, do you?

What, like—

Messy and, like, in need of a brush.

Yeah.

Even I'm like— And I am the sloppiest person. You're like, brush her hair. Brush your hair!

I love her hair.

I think it's great.

Yeah.

I think it's great.

Yeah, it's always a hot mess. Speaking of which, I wanna play this clip. I think your most significant relationship is with Grace Penn in a lot of ways recently.

Yeah.

'Cause the two of you spark so well. And this is from season 2. Grace Penn is still vice president. She's given Kate some advice.

No one will read your policy papers. Best case, a soundbite will go viral once a year. Meanwhile, your face will appear in the media an average of 12,000 times a day. Every classroom in America, every embassy in the world will hang your picture on the wall. It's soft power. So you've got a couple of choices. Wear a suit like the military wears a uniform. Disappear. Hide the individual behind the duty to serve. Or get a gimmick. Blonde bob, red lipstick, pins like Albright, collars like RBG, glasses, a shorthand so people see what you stand for, and little girls dress like you for Halloween.

I think I'm opting for the suit that makes you disappear.

Are you?

Black suit. Every now and then, a navy suit.

What do you think it broadcasts?

As little as possible.

Looking to the north, you probably think your hair says you're too busy serving your country to get a blowout, but it reads as bedhead, which sends a signal I think in this case is better unsent. East and west, try a bra with a little padding. I know there's not much to hide, but when your jacket opens, I'm getting headlights. Which takes us to the south. Is that a paperclip?

Oh, yes, I had a, um, zipper stuck.

When you're a second-tier diplomat in a third-world war zone, that may read as scrappy. If you're representing the interests of 300 million Americans whose healthcare is failing, whose planet is burning, whose future might get a little bit better or a little bit worse based on what you do in the course of a day, it's best to look like the care of your trousers wasn't more than you could manage.

She's the best.

That is the finest scene in the land.

Right?

I mean—

And she has a point.

Absolutely.

I'm getting you headlights. Is that a paperclip? Is that a paperclip?

But she's remarkable here. And she's kind of a mentor to you. It changes over time, but there's a competitive angle. Talk about playing with her, because especially in the more contentious scenes, which escalate, talk about their dynamic. Because to me, that's the significant relationship in this show. I mean, I get the husband part, but really the significant relationship is with her.

And she— You know, whatever you may feel for her big moves, or— the truth is, she's doing it.

Treason, really.

Yeah.

I mean, and it just continues.

Yeah, in the 3rd season.

She is able to look presentable, and she has been in that world, this very male world, and she's successful in doing it really well. I, one time, had a meeting with Nora Ephron, I was much younger.

Oh, my God.

She was amazing.

She was a friend of mine.

And I sat with her. I had just had a baby, and I was kind of, like, bragging, oh, well, I don't really have a nanny because I just do this, and blah, blah, blah. And she just looked at me and took, like, a long pause and, like, really drunk me in, you know? And she said, you need to take yourself more seriously. And I—

I love her.

Died.

I fucking died. And she was right. But that's exactly what that character is like.

Yeah.

Yeah. You think it's, like, cute. I get it. Take it seriously.

Yeah.

She was a very good mother, by the way.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I just saw her son recently. When you think about that relationship, talk about the relationship between Grace Penn and Kate, and then you and Alison. How do you work that? 'Cause she's really dislikable in the show.

She's really dislikable.

And there's something you can't do with her.

No. And she, in life, Janney, is so likable. She's so kind.

Well, in most of her roles.

in her own person, is so delicate and lovely and cautious and kind and funny. And we have a really silly, naughty relationship with each other. But I think actors like that who get to play— for instance, Jany playing Grace Penn, you get to exercise this thing that you don't normally do in your real life. So, um...

Even her other— CJ was such a good, perfect woman.

Perfect woman.

Not unsimilar in looks or intelligence.

But now she gets to be— I mean, I don't know what scene it is or what episode, but towards the end of this season, there's a point where she looks at him and she goes, watch yourself. And you're like, oh my God. And I think she just relishes being mean. because she doesn't do that in her real life.

Right.

Yeah, it's a real shift for her. You know, in a major twist in season 3, Grace chooses Hal as her vice president when your character thinks they're getting the role and were groomed for the role. When you thought about that twist, it was a great twist.

Oh, so good.

But about women in power, after all that preparation, it goes to the husband.

Yeah.

Well, okay, a million things. Number one, for me, an actor, for a character, it's the best because you always want to be losing. Losing is way more interesting than someone who's winning all the time. Winning is boring to watch. But to lose, that was so humiliating. Even to just do the scene is so humiliating.

Mm-hmm.

You've built yourself up. You've given yourself this little tiny idea that, actually, maybe I do want to do it. Maybe I do want this job.

Yeah, she did.

And then to have it, like, swept away from you in such a humiliating way was delicious. But in reality, are they really going to have a country who can't elect even one woman? You're going to have 2 women?

No.

No way. So you're going to get— choose the handsome guy who's a better counterpart for her. So it does make sense. But it's still awful.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, it is. You could see, 'cause she wanted it. She actually did, and would acknowledge it. Now, season 4 premieres today. Bring us up to speed. Who is she in season 4, and what's she dealing with?

Season 4. So, season 3 ended with Kate and Hal—

Stealing the nuke.

Stealing the nuke. And—

And not letting Kate in on it.

Yeah. And so, So, Kate has to, I guess, figure out if she's gonna stay in the marriage after all this massive deception, and figure out what that was about. And then, very quickly, bigger problems arise.

Right, right.

Absolutely. But where— she's here where she thinks she's in the inside, and she's not on the inside at all.

Not on the inside at all.

Yeah. And he's having a significant relationship with Grace Penn.

With Grace Penn.

Yeah. Yeah. So, when you were approaching this season, what's your state of mind?

What's the headspace? I mean, it starts a mess, and then in this incredible way that I think is true to life, a bigger out external problem enters, and then it sort of unites you again. You know, because sometimes the outside world— you unify again against the outside world. And I think that is what happens pretty immediately.

Because you've been knocked off your feet. And you're the smartest girl in the room.

Yeah.

And you need to reestablish that.

And I need to, like, not— but not speak and told constantly to not speak.

Because you do believe in hierarchy in a weird way. Your character does.

Absolutely.

I believe in the order of, you know, the process.

Absolutely.

Right. Yeah.

But yeah, she thinks she's the smartest one in the room.

And she has to do something with it. How would you characterize this season over the— if you had one word without giving it away?

Oh, gosh. I mean, well, you said it. It's sort of a wish. Like, to me, it's a wish of what I would've hoped would've happened for us. But we didn't get any of this.

We didn't get any of it.

No.

Do you know what I mean? By the end of the season, we didn't get—

We're just like, prizelings and collaborators. Right? It's wild. Fucking with people all the time.

I mean, yeah.

And without any care to allies. 'Cause allyship is a lot.

That is— I mean, and I learned so much on this show about that. early on. And to think all of that, you know, there's so many steps of diplomacy and everything with Great Britain, with Canada, with— I mean, it's the fracturing of the absolute destruction.

So I'm going to finish up. We have only a few more minutes. In your real life, you're the mom of 3, as you said, and your partner, Matthew Rhys, is a working actor. I hear he's won some awards. I don't really care. No, he's currently starring in the hit series Widows Bay.

Yeah.

And you live in New York, and you said you live a quiet little life. How do you keep your life normal and quiet, especially with kids? Teenagers, right? All teenagers?

Yeah.

Well, we have 19, 14, and 10.

So college student.

Yeah.

We have a pretty average life. I think it helps that I don't work all the time. We try to take turns. So someone's home doing the normal stuff, and someone's away hopefully doing something they like. And I think it helps that we don't have a ton of actor friends, or— you know what I mean? Our friends are just regular people.

The normals?

The normals.

You know what I mean?

And I think that makes our life nice.

Would you want to do another show with him?

I would totally work with him again. He's so good. I mean, I have to say, I always say that I never really wanted to be an actor. because I didn't grow up, you know, I didn't go to RADA or something. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not some amazing trained actor. But working with him, he was one of the first people I really worked with that I was like, whoa, what is he doing? He's doing all this extra stuff.

You know?

And it was really— So it taught you something. Thrilling. Absolutely. And inspired me. I was like, oh, shit. I see what he's doing. That's more complex. That's— I was also really He— I get embarrassed all the time. And he didn't have any of that. When he's working, he's totally, like, free.

He's—

he would be naked all the time, you know? And he's not like some— I mean, I'm with him. I love him. I think he's great. But he's not like some worked-out— like, he would just be naked. No big deal.

He has—

he's really comfortable.

Right.

And that was really appealing.

Yeah.

And what would you want to do? What would you— if you could pick something?

I don't know.

You can wander into this series.

Yeah.

Maybe. Oh, wait.

Maybe.

Maybe.

You never know.

I have 2 more questions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you weren't an actor, what would you be? You always— you keep saying you're not an actor, you aren't trained, which is—

Well, I wanted to be like—

You're a very good actor, FYI. Trained or not, it seems like you're good at it.

I wanted to be— I mean, and I still, like, I wanted to be like, you know, like Amelia Earhart or Margaret Mead. I just wanted to, like, travel and adventure. And in a way, I do get to do that. My job, I travel all over the world. I create these little lives for 6 months at a time and have these little adventures. Probably something like that, or just sit and read all the time. I would like time to just read.

I know that feeling.

Yeah. I know that feeling.

And my last question, when you think about right now Hollywood, what's happening, you've had a very successful career. very clearly forward. Allison Janney's the same way, very much so. How do you look at Hollywood right now? There's all these changes happening. There's all these mergers, acquisitions. How does it affect a working actor like you?

Well, it doesn't affect me right in this moment, but I— something Matthew and I talk about a lot. I just think there's time. We feel time. I think this is limited.

Mm-hmm.

I think with AI and where everything is moving, I don't know, this is probably limited. I was so lucky that I got to be a part of this— what do they call it? Like prestige TV?

Yeah.

You know, it was such a fun way to extend storytelling where it wasn't just a 2-hour movie. There was something really amazing about the idea 8, 10-episode series where you could really parse out and stretch out the story and— like a good book, more like that, more detailed. And I just feel so lucky I got to be a part of that.

And if you were a young actor today, it's harder, right?

I think so. And who knows what's going to happen? You know, I just don't know what's in store. I think what will survive, I think, are live performances. Theater, maybe.

Which you've done.

Yeah.

I think that will still do well, but who knows how this is all going to shake out?

So you don't want Carrie AI?

I don't know. Should I want Carrie AI? Kara, I don't want to live on forever. I want to, like, sneak away and go read my books in the woods.

I just saw someone say, I want to—

But you did that. You sent me that thing.

I know. I want to disappear. And then that you turn into a robot. That's what I want to do, turn into a rumor, slowly disappear. Anyway, Carrie, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And one of my favorite things that you do on this show, and either the character or you, but the way you flounce out of rooms is my very favorite. Because I flounce out of rooms.

You're a flouncer.

I'm a flouncer. And I have— and loud flouncer. And I like that this character just does that no matter the cost.

No matter the cost.

No matter the cost. I think that must be you too, in some way. Anyway, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Thanks a lot.

Today's show was produced by Vicki Vergolina, Michelle Eloi, Catherine Millsop, Megan Birney, and Madeline Laplante-Duby.

Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester, Jim Mackel, and Manola Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're a hyper-competent hot mess with the chops to broker an international treaty. If not, you're just a sweaty lady in a yogurt-stained pantsuit. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

We'll be back on Monday with more. Support for this show comes from NetSuite. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities, it's changing the way businesses get work done and questions they ask and decisions they make and the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of the business management suite trusted by over 44,000 companies. With AI woven into every tool you already rely on, you can get more done in less time.

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