Transcript of Dan Harris: The Hidden Stressors That Are Ruining Your Inner Health & 10 Changes to Make to Reduce Stress

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Stress is the difference between the things on your to-do list and your capacity to handle that to-do list. Anxiety is fretfully projecting and fearing that bad things are going to happen. Both things are probably at the worst point they've ever been since we started keeping those records.

Former ABC news anchor.

Author of 10% Happier.

Mr..

Dan Harris. People who live the longest have strong relationships. Dose yourself with some discomfort. Go to that party. Accept the invitation.

The number one health and wellness podcast.

Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. He won the only Jay Shetty.

Dan Harris, welcome to On Purpose. It's so great to finally have you here. I feel like this has been years in the making. I know my audience has wanted to hear from you. My community has asked for us to get together. I've seen so many comments tagging I'm thanking you saying you have to have Dan on the show. And so this is really exciting for me. And I want to thank you for taking out the time and being here with us.

Thanks for having me. It's a little embarrassing because they might have tagged me in the comments, but I wouldn't have seen it because I wasn't on social media until a few months ago. And I had an Instagram, but I didn't really post to it much. And so about six months ago, I started putting some videos up, and I was looking at it one day, and I saw that I had a message from you, but it was from 2020. So I answered it, and that's why we're here.

Absolutely. And I love it. Yeah, I reached out. Yeah, I'm glad you're here. Yeah, I reached out in 2020 and was probably aware of your work even before that. And I feel like there's so many similarities and differences that we can explore today in our personal journeys. But let's dive straight in. I think at this point in time, it feels like we've talked about this topic for a long time, but it still feels like we have a slightly unhealthy relationship with it and somewhat a subconscious relationship with it, and I'm talking about stress. It seems that year upon year, people's stress increases, people's variety of causes of stress increase. Even after the pandemic, we saw a different type of stress that we experienced. I wanted to get your thesis on how you feel about the state of stress at the moment.

It's not good. I recently learned, this is embarrassing that I I recently learned this, the difference, the specific difference between stress and anxiety. Hopefully, I don't mangle this, but it's something like stress is the difference between the things on your to-do list and your capacity to handle that to-do list. The difference between the demands on you and your ability to meet those demands. And anxiety is a little bit more fretfully projecting forward into the future and fearing that bad things are going to happen. And so I think actually both things are probably at the worst point they've ever been since we started keeping those records. From what I can tell, anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction, and loneliness are, according to the numbers I've seen, at unprecedented levels. Now, we haven't been keeping these statistics for that long. So I suspect when we were on the edge of World War II, things were worse. But in the modern era, things have not been worse from what we can tell. And I think a huge contributor to that is the pandemic that we just lived through. I sometimes describe it as a global unregulated experiment into what would happen when you deny people social connection and put people in a state of deep uncertainty about the future and add into that political polarization, the noxious impacts of social media, which we were just talking about, war, climate change.

You have a very tough situation for individual minds.

Which one has been the one that you feel you've heard about the most from the people that follow your podcast that have read your books? What's the stress that you think is weighing them down the most?

I'm projecting a little bit here and guessing But I sometimes think there's a difference between what people perceive to be the source of their stress or anxiety and what actually is driving it. So we might fasten on to things that are real, for sure. I mean, like work stress, economics, so there can be stress about the state of your job and then economic stress about the larger state of the economy. There's increasing stress around inequality and bigotry, increasing awareness of it. So the question is, are those the proximate causes for your stress, or could there be subterráne and contributors that you might not be aware of? So I think today's media environment, particularly social media, and I'm not anti-social media. We just talked about the fact that I recently went on it. But I think there are aspects of social media we need to be aware of. Too much comparing yourself to other people is, as you've talked about, the source. It's a really good source of unhappiness and stress. I think also if you're spending too much time staring at a screen, two things can happen. One, you can get a distorted view of the state of the world because the algorithms feed off of conflict and anger and outrage.

They feed our society. And then the other thing is the more you're staring at the screen, the less time you're spending connecting to actual human beings. So I think this is the deepest contributor. We are, and this is to state the obvious, social animals, you hear this in every TED Talk. I think I said it in my own TED Talk, so I'm deeply unoriginal here. We are social animals. We're designed to interact with other human beings. And yet everything about modern life militates against this basic obvious fact. Everything drives us into our own information silos, into our creating our own resumes and working on our own little homes. And all that can be beautiful. But when you overlook what we need, that is going to create stress and anxiety. And you might think it is observable things out in the world, and it probably is those things, too. But I just wonder for many people whether it's this deeper contributor that they're not looking at.

Yeah, I'm so glad. You just made two really good distinctions there. I love the way you were sharing the research around the difference between anxiety and stress. And going back to that for a second, that example you gave of having your to-do list and feeling like you don't have the capacity, it sounds like what you're sharing is that there's a capacity challenge and then also a control challenge. When you're naming all those things external to us, there's a feeling of, I can't control any of those things. All of those things are uncertain, and therefore I'm dealing with constant states of change, and that, in effect, creates a sense of stress. To some degree, if I'm forward-projecting, then anxiety as well. When I think about all of that, and I love what you just said about actually getting to the root of it, because I think you're spot on that we often discover a new symptom, and there will always be a new thing we'll discover every day that causes or triggers stress because there'll be a new change, a new uncertainty, a new thing we can't control. But at the core of it, you've highlighted this need for connection and this need for belonging and this need for human touch, both physical and mental and emotional, that we seem to be feeling further and further away from.

I was talking about this with my best friend today, who I speak to probably three or four times a week. It's the person I probably speak to the most in the entire world. He was my best man at my wedding. He introduced me to spirituality. We have a long history of 18 years of a friendship, so he knows me very well. We still talk three to four times a week. He lives in London, I live in LA, and we still find a time to connect. That's mainly because he always makes time and he's very kind. I often think about it in that I don't know how I would navigate life without that friendship. Because of having someone who understands me deeply, someone who allows me to be seen, someone who allows me to be flawed and imperfect, yet allows me to process all of that is so profoundly needed, but it requires certain deposits that had to happen 18 years ago in order to get there. Do you find human connection is easier with people you've known for a long time, or have you found it to be building new relationships and new friendships? What have been the pros and cons or the ways you've navigated both of those?

One of the things that I really try to do in my work is move away from abstractions or clichés or big ideas and get really practical about how you can actually act on these things because it's easy to scroll on Instagram or read a book or hear a Ted talk, and you hear these inspirational notions like, We're built for connection, and we need belonging, and you need to invest in relationships. And then what do you do about it? I couldn't agree more. And so I think about that a lot. And I think you just gave us an example. You made a deep friendship 18 years ago, but it's not enough to just have a connection with somebody. You need to invest it over and over and over again. That's true for any level of a deep relationship. It's true, I would imagine, with your wife. You've written a whole book about this, so I'm not talking to you like you don't know what you're talking about. But I just think you're giving a great concrete example of one little thing you can do, which is figure out who you like and then make an investment in that person, and hopefully a few other people, consistently over time, because the rewards are huge.

And this isn't just like a nice to have. I know you're familiar with this research, but the study that comes up for me all the time is this study that was done that's still ongoing at Harvard University. It's overseen now by Robert Wauwinger. And the idea is that they've been following several generations of people who live in the Boston area to see what contributes to a long life, longevity, health, happiness, and what comes screaming out of 80, 90 years of data is that the people who live the longest have strong relationships. What's the mechanism for that? Stress is what kills us. You started this whole conversation with the idea of stress. Stress is what kills us most of the time. And the best The best way to reduce stress is to have positive relationships. Wadlinger has this great expression, never worry alone. That's what you're doing three times a week with your buddy. There are obviously things you can talk to your wife about, of course, but the whole, and again, you know all of this, but you There are odds. Your wife can't be the Alpha and Omega. Your wife can't be everything to you.

Again, there's data to support this contention, too, that the strongest marriages or romantic relationships in those relationships, the participants have other relationships that support it, that you're getting certain needs filled through your best friend. So I just go back to what you said. That seems to be a direction that people can move in when they're trying to think about how to operationalize this stuff in their own life.

Yeah. No, and I'm glad that you brought it to this, and I genuinely couldn't agree with you more. And that's why I've always wanted to talk to you, is this idea of, well, how do we actually do that? Because these big ideas and big concepts often, as you said, give you that short term inspiration, but then it doesn't translate into any discipline or habit or creation of a routine or rhythm that allows us to repeat it and make it real. And so Let's zone in on that for some of the points you made. One of the things you talked about, of course, is social media. And the truth is that all of us are in some way, shape or form addicted to this. It's designed to make us addicted. It's not that we're addicted because we have some flaw or some weakness or because we're alone. I think a lot of us share this. I've found myself doomscrolling. I found myself wasting hours and hours on social media feeling like I didn't achieve anything or gain anything from it. So no one's immune to this. I don't think there's a select few people who've beaten it.

I think it's consumed all of us. What have been the practical steps that you maybe have put in place for yourself, people that you know in your life that you think have actually helped people develop a healthy relationship. Because I think it's also not just saying, well, just don't be on your phone, which is often, again, one of these big ideas that's portrayed, which is like, well, just turn it off or don't be on it. We know that that's not sustainable either. We're both carrying our phones today. Yes.

First of all, you said this thing about how you have struggled with social media. I just want to add that I have, too. I just started, as we've discussed, and I can't tell you how many times I've gotten sucked into either scrolling and looking at things. I could be talking to my child during that time, or, and this is even more embarrassing, compulsively checking back to see how a specific video is performing. So, yeah, I don't come to this conversation with any superiority. I also think, and I will get to some things that have been useful for me, but I also want to say that I'm not against social media. I think there are beautiful aspects to it. I think there are also very difficult aspects, and we can talk about that if you want, but it is popular not only for the negative aspects for it. I think you can get some degree of pleasure through social for sure. I think it's true just for any dopamine hit in our life. You can get addicted to anything that is the source of fleeting pleasure, from food to cocaine to alcohol to gambling to shopping.

There's healthy use, healthy involvement in all these activities, and then unhealthy. It really just depends on the circumstances of your own brain, your own life. It's a thing everybody has to work on for themselves. As it pertains to practical things, things that work for me with technology addiction. One is just being pretty disciplined about putting it away. Usually, at the end of the day, I try to put it away and have a proper evening with my family. Don't always succeed at that, but I notice when I do it, I feel better. That leads to the second piece of advice, which is, as you know, I'm a big advocate of meditation, as are you. I think the self-awareness that can be generated through contemplative exercises like meditation can help wake you up to the fact that you will feel better if you don't get sucked into your phone for prolonged periods of time. The brain is always looking for pleasure. If you can show the brain that there's what my friend Jud Brewer calls a bigger, better offer, which is that it will feel better to connect to your family, most of the time, because sometimes our families are annoying, but it will feel better to connect to other people to read a book, to take a walk in nature, than it will to attach your arm to the IV drip of FOMO that social media can be.

And so I think meditation is a great way to do that. The final thing is, see if you can ask yourself this question, and I get this from a woman named Katherine Price, who wrote a book that I recommend called How to Break Up with Your Phone. She encourages people to to try to get in the habit of asking themselves a very simple question when they find their zombie arm reaching for the phone. What do you need right now? What need are you trying to fulfill when you pick up that phone? For me, it's often because I'm bored or I'm in an uncomfortable situation, or I'm tired and I don't have the wherewithal to do something, or I'm lonely, or I'm hungry. Actually, if you run that program, you run that algorithm internally for yourself, you're You're only going to remember this 10% of the time. But if you can remember to do it some percentage of the time and ask yourself, What is it that I'm actually going for here? You might realize, actually, the phone is not what I need right now. For me, I found that really helpful. It doesn't work all the time, but it helps.

Yeah, absolutely. I like that idea of how we're almost having to sell to our brain, like the idea of selling this. You call it the great... What was it, the great?

It's not my phrase, but it's from this guy, Dr. Jud Brewer, and he's written some books about anxiety, and it's called The Bigger, Better Offer.

The Bigger, Better Offer. Sorry. Yes, The Bigger, Better Offer. I love that idea of having to sell that idea, pledge that idea, propose that idea to the brain. And I definitely see that as valuable. And I found that with the The way that that worked for me was having to remind myself after I made the right decision. What I mean by that is if I'm going to reach for my phone right now and I have the courage enough to not reach for it, but I end up spending time with my family as the bigger, better offer. Now, after I spend time with my family and I've enjoyed it, this time, they're not annoying. Then after I do that, I need to deeply code that into my memory. I need to make a deal out of it. I need to tell my friend about it. I need to journal about it. I need to record it. I need to take a picture, whatever it is, because what I found is that the mind The end needs to be reminded, again, when I reach for the phone, that the bigger, better offer will win, but that memory doesn't get stored deep enough for us to be able to rediscover it when we most need it.

Yes. That's definitely helped. I loved what you said a couple of seconds ago about being able to switch it off. I fail at this all the time, but I've at least set the rules, and I think that's what we have to do with this because it is hard. But a few years ago, I set no technology times and no technology zones in my home. So I almost envisioned a no phone sign in the bedroom and at the dining table. And at one point, I just envisioned lasers around the room. And it's like, if I walked past it with my phone, then whatever, the floor is lava. Mission impossible. Mission impossible. Just to give that feeling. And yes, of course, have I walked through a laser with my phone? Of course I have. But I like the idea of knowing that, look, there are certain rooms in my home where technology is not the space. Actually, if I want to use my phone, I have to leave that room to use it. And like you're saying about leaving your phone in another room or whatever it may be, I think it's really powerful. One thing you brought up, which I actually think is at the crux of so much of this, and you mentioned the word you've been embarrassed sometimes in your social media usage.

And I find that to actually be one of the deepest roots of the challenges we have with change and habit or even with meditation. I think, as you've been teaching meditation for years as have I, and when I first started meditating, and even now, when my attention is not as present as it can be, or I'm not as focused or I'm distracted, which still happens today after all these years of meditating, it's so easy to feel embarrassed or ashamed or guilty. We can often start to develop an inner critic that can say some of the most hurtful things. I often say to myself, Come on, man, you've been meditating for 18 years now. How are you still distracted? Or by now, you should have been an expert because you're surrounded by so many experts. Or what's wrong with you? How can you teach meditation if you can't meditate deeply? Whatever it may be. It's so easy to get into that space. One thing that I came across recently for myself was recognizing that you can't hate yourself into change. You can't guilt yourself into growth. You can't make yourself feel so guilty that you'll suddenly achieve your goal.

There almost needs to be grace. There needs to be kindness. There needs to be a safe space for you to have imperfections. So I wanted to ask you, what have you done with that emotion of feeling embarrassed? Because I actually think meditation is powerful for helping us overcome embarrassment, but I'd love to approach that with you.

Well, I've had the same thoughts. I don't know if you've experienced this, but once you step out into the world as something approaching a self-help person, as soon as you're an asshole, you tell yourself a story about how you're a total fraud. The first day you screw up, you're like, All right, well, I got to close this whole business.

I can relate to that.

Yeah, I'm sure. I think it goes to something really important, which is personal growth, spiritual development, whatever you want to call it, is hard and messy. Perfection is not on offer. I think just knowing that. Even hearing Jay Shetty talk about making mistakes and getting his shins cut off by a laser as he walks into the bedroom with his phone is useful because people need to know it's not a straight, unbroken upward trajectory. That's not what this is about. There's a great tweet, or I guess we call them X's now or whatever. There's a great X. There was a great X the other day from a Zen Roshi, Roshi Joan Halifax. She's this incredible human being. She posted a picture that was basically a bunch of squiggly lines just going nowhere. Then the caption was The Path. That's the thing. This is messy. We are messy animals, and that's okay. What I think is important to know is that growth is possible, but it is impossible without making a bunch of mistakes. If you can get that into your head, you're better off. So how do you get that into your head? There's a bunch of research that I've become increasingly interested in about the possibility of reprogramming your inner dialog.

Most of us have really nasty inner weather. I sometimes joke that if anybody said to me the types of shit that I say to myself, I would be punching that person in the face. And yet I talk to myself in quite a scathing, venomous way. And I know this is not unusual So what can we do about it? Well, you can get into the habit. You can develop, and again, this is a data and evidence-backed assertion. I'm not just making this up, nor is it an original observation. But what I've learned is that you can get into the habit of talking to yourself the way you would talk to a friend. There are some little hacks that make this easier. One of them is to actually refer to yourself by your name. So, Jay, I know you just got distracted in meditation, but dude, as you know, getting distracted is a part of meditation. If it was possible to clear your mind, then we'd have lots of people walking around with no thoughts, but that isn't possible. What is possible is to focus your mind for a few nanoseconds at a time and then start again and again and again.

We are very good at giving advice to other people, but not taking our own advice. This technique, which is called distant self-talk, where you use your own name to create some distance can allow you, Jay or me, Dan, to give ourselves the advice that we're so willing to give other people and then actually to hear it. Does that make sense? Is that something you've ever tried?

Yeah, absolutely. No, that resonates That resonates in it so deeply. And I actually feel that makes complete sense because even the negative of that is true. And so I was reading just a couple of weeks ago, maybe around how the two ways we talk to ourselves negatively are either I am. So we say things like I am lazy or I'm not good enough, or I'm the worst, or I'm the least intelligent out of all my friends, or whatever it is, right? I am statements. And the other one, they were saying, which was even worse, was we have a voice in our head that sounds like an authority figure that says, You're the worst, or, And you aren't good enough, or, You're behind, or whatever it may be. And that almost sounds like there's an external authority, whether it could have been a teacher or a parent, a family member who may have said that to us, and now it's internalized as a negative authority in our minds. And so what you're actually saying is the positive authority also works, that if someone says your name, Jay or Dan, and then coaches you and guides you through that, would you say that that's a skill that you have harnessed and nourished through meditation, or do you see that as separate to meditation?

I think it's absolutely complementary. As you know, in meditation, one of the benefits is that you're more self-aware. You're more aware of all these wild thoughts careening through your head, and so it's easier to wake up. Now, I mean, I get lost in homicidal fantasies and unspeakable fantasy, other kinds of fantasies That's just the mind. But I'm more likely now to have some self-awareness. I mean, another word for that is mindfulness, to be able to see what's happening between my ears, behind my eyes without necessarily being caught up in it. The sooner I I can wake up to the fact that I'm in the middle of a jag of self-judgment, then I can bring in these other tools. Oh, yeah. You know what I need to do right now is have a talk between the sane part of myself and the insane part of myself. As you said before, the inner critic comes to the ball masquerading as wisdom, but it's not wisdom. It is your ancient fears, and it is the dysfunction of the larger culture. You might be telling yourself you need to look better. Well, that's not your voice. That is, to invoke another amazing person, Sonja Renee.

What am I? Sonja Renee Taylor, I believe, is her name. I'm embarrassed, and I'm forgetting her last name, but she's a great writer, and she said something to the effect of, When I see self-criticism, I realize it's not my voice, it's the voice of the system. You're telling yourself, you don't look good? Well, by whose standards? It's the culture's standards. I have two modes that I'm least proud of. One is greedy and the other is angry. Over time, I've learned to actually have some affection for these modes because it's just the organism trying to protect itself. It's just my ancient fear-based patterns doing their best. Usually, it's a five-year-old's version of doing their best to protect this body. But I don't need to listen to them. In fact, the radical disarmament is to actually make friends with them to high five those demons instead of trying to slay them. For me, that's been really useful. Just to get it back to your question, combining these, I would say, modern psychological tools with ancient contemplative tools has really been helpful.

Hi, I'm Essie Cupp, and I have spent the last 20 plus years knee deep in politics in the news. I've covered some really tough projects, from war to genocide to six presidential elections, way too much Trump. You know what? I need a break, like a mental health break from the news, from the triggering headlines. And I suspect some of you listening out there might need a break, too. So my new podcast is going to be just that, a fun and loose space where I talk to my famous friends and people I admire about all the stuff that consumes us when we're not consumed by politics. I did not really rebel in the '60s.

I had no sex in the '70s. What?

I made no money in the '80s.

So when true crime came along, I missed that trend, too.

So many great guests are joining me, from Josh Mankowitz to Larry Wilmore, to Molly John Fast to Josh Gad.

I'm so excited that you have this platform, and I am just hoping that I don't destroy the platform in its earliest stages.

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Absolutely. You just reminded me of making that point about the system that you quoted there reminds me of years and years ago when I was a student in London, and I remember walking through a department store, and there was a big advert that said, Get the natural look. And then it was all these products that can help you get the natural look. And just that idea of purchasing a natural look is fascinating because-As if you weren't born with one. Yeah, exactly. But it is that voice saying, okay, well, even to get a natural look. And again, I think there are pros and cons. I'm a big fan of so many products, so many services, so many things. And so it's not to say it's all bad, but there is a need in mindfulness to, I think what you're saying is to differentiate and have the ability of discernment between, is this voice me or is this something outside of me, whether it's a system or a person or whatever it may be. And I think that's the quality that we need because it isn't necessarily saying, I'm just going to shut everything off and nothing matters.

It's this idea of, can I tell? Can I tell that when I'm listening to the voice in my head as to whether it's truly mine or whether it's being picked up or nurtured by some other external force?

Another fascinating question is, what is me? Close your eyes and look inside. Can you find some core nugget of Jay? Spend some time with that question. That'll pop you out of ruminating about lots of other unhealthy things.

Where is that question taking you?

I think you come more out of the Hindu tradition, and I come a little bit more out of the Buddhist tradition, even though I don't look like it. But that's where I've spent the last 15 years of my life really doing a lot of study. One of the things they say in Tibhitan Buddhism is that the not finding is the finding because there's nothing to find. Yes, On the level of consensual, conventional reality, I'm Dan, and that camera is taking a picture of me, and yes, that is true. But on the deepest possible level, if I look for some core nugget of Dan, there's nothing to find. That not finding is the answer. And if can you stay with that ambiguity, there is something healing about that. How do you take that out of the esoteric clouds into your actual life? One little linguistic trick. You teed me up for this before because you use the phrase I am, like I am so and so. What if you just... I want to give credit to the person who came up with this. It's Joseph Goldstein, who's a great meditation teacher, but he often advises his students of It's to say, instead of I am, fill in the blank, there is fill in the blank.

There is hunger right now. There is anger in my mind right now. There is sadness in my mind right now. There's no you to find. The adding of the you on top of it is just adding insult to injury. That's extra. But it's true that hunger, anger, or sadness can be here right now. But if you can take the I am out of it and to the there is, well, then it's It's workable. You can do something with it. You can let it pass. You can observe it. You can try to work with it. But if you add in a whole story about how I, Jay, or I, Dan, I'm incurably fill in the blank, well, that's a much bigger problem.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I've never heard that there is. That's beautiful. I can totally see how that is such a beautiful tool and an insight for people to use as language because it's interesting, though, isn't it? Because it feels like we're all so obsessed with identity and our stories. Almost what you're proposing is this idea of recognizing that there's somewhat of a distance between us and our identity and story. Yet everything we've been discussing today, whether it's social media whether it's the system, whether it's the story your parents laid out for you, all of that, there's stories to be lived, crafted, told, and almost we're all living our own stories in our own mind. And so, yeah, how are you able to operate as Dan Harris, the teacher, the guide, the podcaster, et cetera, and then also have the balance of this recognition that actually there is and there is not I am.

Well, can I turn it around? Of course, go. My last retreat was six to nine months ago. I've got one coming up, so I'm further and further away from sanity. But you are much fresher. You've just come out of a retreat. How do you balance that?

There's an understanding of the needs and interests of the different vehicles in which I live. So the body being one vehicle, and the body has certain needs in order to operate and in order to function. And then the mind has certain needs and awareness that it will easily be a support, or as the Gita says, the best friend of the worst enemy. So recognizing, again, as you said earlier, the the befriending of the mind requires an awareness. Then at a deeper level, looking at our emotions, looking at our spiritual or consciousness connection. To me, it's the outline gaining an awareness of the needs for that specific vehicle, but not falling into the trap of believing the vehicle is me. The balance comes from recognizing using there is as It's beautiful, actually, but recognizing that there are needs for each aspect that need to be taken care of, but that one should not accept each of them to be oneself. I think for me, that comes in the form of having to remind myself of that which is beyond the physical self, because it's easier to get connected and identified with the physical self than it is with the non-physical self.

Because the non-physical self is intangible, It's unseen. We're unaware of it. We don't live in a society that reminds us of it. I was thinking about this while I was actually at the Monastery. So the Monastery doesn't have mirrors. And that was something I've talked about before, where you lose your sense of your physical self. While I lived there, I forgot deeply what I look like. If I was out on the streets, when I was traveling, I would always try and look at my reflection in a shop window, whatever it may be. When I was back this time as well, I was having that realization that the number one thing I in the morning when I wake up back at my home is I look in the mirror. I'm already, from the moment I wake up, living in my physical self. I'm now living, believing that I am this body and this is all there is. That automatically sets me up on the opposite end of what I'm trying to practice spiritually. I found that the balance is kept by making that reminder, that first thought of the day of recognizing, whether it's in your language, that which is not or that which is unseen.

In the Hindu tradition, the accepting of us being pure, eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss as consciousness, identifying with that before I identify with anything else. That, to me, is what helps the balance, is not falling into the easy identification. I don't know if any of that made any sense.

Well, it does. I think you're aware through your own practice that there's more than just the J you see in the mirror, and yet you live in a busy world and you're actually, like me, you're building a business around the small version of yourself, like the physical corporeal version of yourself that presents here and now, smaller than the vast, infinite, mysterious We don't know what that is somehow it lives in your mind. The way that you balance it, I heard, is just engage in the messy business of trying to remember to the best of your ability.

Yeah, I don't need to I don't remind myself that I'm Jay, this physical version because I'm reminded of that every day. But I have to remind myself of that which is beyond this because otherwise it's so easy to lose touch with it because we are living with the bodily needs as the prime focus. I think that's why retreats and experiences are so supportive, where the bodily needs somewhat become a background priority and the needs of the deeper self rise and the connection with that self is more prominent. I find that starting my year, if that way helps. I was actually just talking to someone who was mentioning they came to one of your retreats at Omega, and they were saying, what a beautiful experience. They said it was the only retreat they've ever been on, but they plan on coming on more. It was for that same reason, to be reminded. I think that's why we do anything. I think most of what we do is to remind ourselves of something that we care about and something that's meaningful to us, like whether it's spending time with our family or why we celebrate the holidays.

So much of I think the most beautiful things in our world are reminding us of what truly matters. I think spirituality and meditation, to me, meditation is my daily practice of remind myself of what truly matters.

Exactly. I think the biggest problem, in my experience, the biggest problem in whatever, again, I don't know what to call this, personal growth, spiritual development, whatever it is, the biggest challenge is forgetting because you hear a great podcast, you see a great Instagram post, you read a great book, you go to a great retreat. But then everything about Modern life pulls you back into the, I'm going to get satisfaction from the next thing. Oh, no, no, the next thing. I'm going to keep scrolling. I'm going to get that next sip of a latte. I'm going to get the next promotion. Again, I'm not saying these are bad things, but they won't do it for you. There's a reason why you keep wanting more because the way the human animal is designed is that natural selection didn't want us to be satisfied because then we'd stop having babies, and that wouldn't be good for the species. You need to wake. This is a urgent mission. You need to find as many ways as possible to wake back up. You just described meditation is a great way to pound this stuff into your neurons. It's probably too aggressive of an analogy, but it gets it into your molecules in a way.

Another thing you also described earlier is having good friends. If you can surround yourself with people who are also taking this thing seriously, that is a great way to wake yourself back up. Also, by the way, is a great way to get you out of your attachment to the, I don't know if this is the appropriate term to use, but the smallest, most superficial version of yourself, the brand of Dan, the brand of Jay. Well, if you're talking to your best friend, he's got a problem and you're helping him with it, another word for that would be generosity. If you're being generous in some way, that's going to get you out of your head. That is a form of letting go.

I like that. Yeah, That struck a chord there of how, again, going back to that being, when we're being a, I guess in that case, you said generous, there's an element of us not living in the system. Would you say that feels right? Why is that? Why do you think that breaks the system?

It's a little line that I have, which is impolite, but the view is so much better when you pull your head out of your ass. If you're being generous, your head's out of your ass. Even if you have ulterior motives, which I think we unfairly demonize. It's okay to give because you have some, there's something in it for you. By the way, there is something in it for you. The brain is wired to experience intense reward in the act of generosity. That's cool. But you're still more of your bandwidth focused on the benefit to somebody else than there would be if you were mindlessly scrolling or binging or eating or whatever it is. It is just fundamentally getting your head out of your ass in whatever form you choose. It doesn't have to be giving money. It can be holding the door open for somebody. I sometimes ask people to do this little mental, very easy mental game of like, Pay attention the next time you hold the door open for somebody. What does that feel like? It feels good if you're paying attention. That feeling is infinitely scalable in a way that the pleasure of Instagram or cream is not.

You can ride that insight. Not that I do it perfectly, if at all, but you can, if you're so inclined, ride that insight all the way to a significantly greater levels of happiness.

Yeah, wow. I love that. I love that. That's so interesting that after all these years, you can still open a door for someone and it still feels great, and whether the other person responds or not. But the endless scrolling on social media is, yeah, loses its taste very, very quickly. Yeah.

It doesn't mean you should ever do it. It's just the endless part that you should lose.

Yeah, absolutely. I guess that's one of the things I loved about in this book when I first came across it, your book, And Happier, which is a huge best seller, huge success, led to the podcast also. One of the things I loved was this whole idea about without losing your edge. I really appreciated that because I think it's what we've both been talking about here. I enjoy operating and building and creating. I do. I feel like I'm at a point in my life where I've given myself permission to be all aspects of myself. Up until this stage in my life, I was just collecting different parts of myself. I felt like I collected... I mean, 0-10, probably didn't do anything, but 10-20, I collected things, 20-30, I collected things, and now I'm in my 30s. I feel like I'm connecting things. And that collection to connection has been primarily through the uncomfortable process of accepting and giving myself permission for the paradoxical and contradictory things that live in within me. So as much as I love being fully present and mindful and deeply purifying myself, I also really enjoy building and creating and learning and being curious and outward.

And those two things coexist. And I actually I really find that one feeds the other. I find that the further I go outward, the more I want to go inwards, the more I go inwards, the more I want to go outwards in a positive sense. That cycle continues, and it's a cycle. It's not a... And I think both of us, having studied Eastern traditions, the East is fully cyclical and not linear in all of its practices. The growth journey looks like this, and the Western growth journey generally is portrayed as that, even though it may not be.

There's a way in which you can assume that sitting and meditating or even going to a... Can you believe this dude went to a monastery for 10 days a couple of days ago? That's not going to help him with his edge, but actually it does help you. It does help you. Do you want to be less emotionally reactive? Do you want to be more focused? Do you want to have your relationships with your collaborators? Okay, do you think going to a monastery is going to help or hurt with those things? It's going to help with all of those things. And those are the things we need to be successful. We've been sold through hustle culture, this idea that, think God, it's Monday, I've got to rise and grind and all of that stuff. But that is, in my experience, a great way to burn out. When in fact, the cycle that you just talked about of retreat to advance, you take some... You don't have to do it. It doesn't even have to be a retreat. It can be just five minutes of meditation every day. That that is filling your tank in a way that allows you to engage in the world more effectively.

And so these two things are not in opposition in my experience. And you're a walking example of that. You spent time being a monk, and that has helped you build a business that helps other people, that helps you do more inner work. Boom.

Yeah. No. And of course, and I love what you said there, because we've talked a bit about retreats, and I don't want to I'm going to think they need to disappear for a week or a year or whatever it may be. All of this can be done in the microcosm of five minutes. Dan, walk us through your daily meditation practice, and I'm sure you've done this a million times, but I'd love for people to hear it because I'd love for people to hear how accessible some of these ideas are on a daily basis that we're talking about, and of course, in a way that they can start practicing it as well. What does your daily practice look like?

I'm excited. You're interviewing me right now, but in two minutes, I'm going to turn this around and I'm going to interview you because we come from different traditions. I actually come into my discussion with you with a lot of curiosity about what your meditation is like. From a Buddhist standpoint, it's, for beginners, really not complex. Meditations. A lot of people worry that it's going to be esoteric or impossible, but it really isn't. There's really three steps for beginning mindfulness meditation. By the way, I keep talking about Buddhism, but this meditation that I'm talking about now is secular. There's no religious lingo or metaphysical claims. It's a very simple secular exercise for the brain. The first step is just to sit or lie down comfortably, close your eyes, and The second step is to bring your full attention to the feeling of your breath coming in and going out. For some people, the breath can make you a little anxious if you're focusing on that. If that's you, then you just pick something else, like the feeling of your body sitting or lying down. That's step number two. First, get into a comfortable position, sitting or lying down.

Second, pick something to focus on, like your breath or the feeling of your body. Then the third step is the most important, because as soon as you try to do this, your mind is likely to go into You're having in all these random thoughts and urges and emotions. At this moment, the voice in people's heads often swoops in and tells them this whole story about how they're failed meditators. You were talking about this earlier, but that voice is wrong. The whole goal in meditation is just to notice that you've become distracted and to start again and again and again. The waking up from distraction is not proof of failure. It's actually proof of success because the whole goal here is to get more familiar with this inner conversation that we're all having, this inner narrator that is chasing us out of bed in the morning and is yammering at us all day long. You just want to get more familiar with this cacophony so that it doesn't own you as much. It's really that simple. Pick one thing to focus on, usually the breath. Then in a few seconds in, you'll start having random thoughts about what bird was big bird or where do gerbels run wild, whatever.

All these random thoughts. As soon as you wake up from those thoughts, blow them a kiss and go back to the breath, back to the breath, over and over and over again. That's like a bicep curl for your brain. That's what we see on the brain scans of people who meditate, that the area of the brain associated with attention or focus changes in a positive way. Meanwhile, the area of the brain associated with stress shrinks. This is an exercise that anybody can do. I will say a small asterisk, if you have significant mental health challenges or trauma, it might be good to do it under the supervision of a mental health professional. But other than that, it really is universally accessible. It doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are or if, like me, you're an agnostic, this is simple secular exercise for your brain. Yeah.

I love what you said there, is that we're really just trying to get a tune to that in a voice that is basically telling us what to do all day and pushing around in every direction. I find that that voice has often led us to achieve incredible things, that voice often leads us to achieve things and still feel unfulfilled. That voice has almost become such a friend in so many ways, and sometimes a toxic friend. It's almost a toxic relationship we have with the voice inside of our head where we listen to it, but we don't always like it, but sometimes it helps us win, and sometimes it helps us get one up on someone, and then other times it lets us down. It's doing all of this. It's almost like, I think like a toxic relationship, we're scared of letting go of that voice because it's almost like, what do I replace it with. I'm just going to be alone.

Well, a couple of things to say about that. One is there are many voices. One of the theories of modern psychological theories is called the modular model of mind. We have these modes. I think about it like You remember Magic 8-Balls? Yeah, of course.

You shake one up. Yeah, I still love that.

The tiles compete for the top space, and it'll send you a message or whatever. We have a bunch of tiles in our head, and they're all competing for the steering wheel, right? I've got a jealous mode, an angry mode, a fearful mode, a self-critical mode. I think often the self-critical mode is the one with a steering wheel. But you have a wise mode, a generous mode, a passionate mode. They're often just not getting that much air time. There are ways through meditation, through therapy, being in nature, exercise, that can bring the healthier tiles to the surface. That's just one thing to say. Then the other thing to say is that, yeah, it's true that this self-criticism, we're scared that if we let it go, that we'll be on the couch eating ice cream until the end of time. That's just not what's going to happen. Back to tobacco Buddhism, and I'm not an expert in it, but they have this expression that I have a couple of colleagues who are sitting on a couch over here who heard me say this a million times, but I really love this. The tobacco word for enlightenment, as far as I understand it, roughly translates into a clearing away and a bringing forth.

You clear away the noise, all of our demons, our unhelpful demons, what can come out is what is already there in all of us, which is the good stuff. You might use the word the the coded word love. I think of love as an overarching term that encompasses things like generosity, compassion, kindness, patience, ethics. That is in us. Of course, it's in us because back to evolution, as a social species, we needed all that stuff in order to cooperate and collaborate and become the apex predator on the planet. When you turn the volume down on the shittier aspects of our nature, the good stuff will come out. It's It has an edge. It has the edge that you want. It does want to create beautiful and important things in the world. It does want to take care of you, too, as well as it wants to take care of everybody. It does want to stand up to injustice. It does want to be tough, but not motivated by hatred, instead by the good stuff, which is giving a shit, caring. Anyway, that's all my experience about this. Yeah, absolutely. I'm not perfect at it by any stretch.

I made a reference to Liz and Tony were sitting in the room with us. Give them the mic. They'll tell you. 90% still a moron. Absolutely.

No, but I love the idea of how we're simply reconnecting with and awakening something we've forgotten. It's almost like we're associating with that angry mode, that envy mode, that jealousy mode, that ego mode every day. We've started to accept that it's our reality and normality. Whereas you said we do to have a wise mode. It's just that we haven't experienced it either outside of us or inside of us for so long that we've forgotten it's there, but it is there. It is accessible. I think that is not only true based on the wisdom traditions we've studied, but it's also empowering to recognize that this isn't something new you're having to figure out or develop. It's an ability that almost exists within you already that has just been buried and covered over by all these other layers of identification and impurities. Exactly. You've been so vulnerable a couple of times to mention this thing inside of you as an anger mode. You were saying earlier you have two modes, and one of them was anger. And I wanted, if it's okay, to hone in on that, because I think that Something that is something we've actually never really discussed on the podcast in all the guests we've had.

And I think it's something that often is something people are scared of talking about. It's a taboo topic because of the connotations that anger is associated with. And I was wondering, how has meditation and mindfulness, what have they shown you or helped you understand about anger? Because I think our mind often goes to, I want to stop being angry rather than I want to understand anger. And I think this is so true for so many things in society. We're like, I wish that would just stop. It's almost like, well, before it stops, we may need to get to know it a bit better and understand it and befriend it, going back to the five point you made earlier. And so I thought, let's start with anger for that.

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Sure. There's this great... I know you know who he is, but there's this great Vietnamese Zen master, Thich Nath Han. I love Thich Nath. He has this expression about holding your anger like a baby. I don't love that because I'm such an anti-sentimentalist, and I find it somewhat annoying, even though he's completely right. He's a genius or was a genius. He passed recently. There's something to that. First of all, the anger is trying to tell you something. In my case, it's like some infantile Usually, desire to protect myself. Often, it's... Sometimes anger has been described as a secondary emotion. It's an emotion that's covering up for another emotion. In my case, it's usually fear. I'm a guy, and we don't like to admit fear. Often, if I look closely, if I hold the anger like a crying child, if I get over myself and do the thing that the wise person has mentioned that we should probably do, I actually see, Oh, yeah, I'm scared of something here. That's really helpful because then I can respond wisely to the thing that's making me angry/scared rather than reacting blindly. There's a difference between healthy anger and destructive anger.

Again, this is not my insight. This is the way in psychological circles, they talk about it. Healthy anger that can get you off the couch to do something about a problem. It's clarifying it. Healthy anger can help us see clearly where somebody is full of shit. Although there's a reason why we talk about anger as seeing red, because it can also be blind with blind rage. That's the destructive anger, that's an anger fueled by hatred, fueled by bias, bigotry, and it can get us into endless conflict. That's what you want to avoid. That's what I've failed to avoid for too many times in my own life, and I still screw that up, regularly. But nothing It can happen until you identify the problem. You talked about this earlier. One of the things that meditation does for you is it helps you be aware of stuff so that you can work with it. So, yeah, this is one of my big things that I have to work with.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. No, I really value that understanding of the difference in the two hangers that you just mentioned there, but also, yeah, just being able to recognize the fear that sits beneath it. When I get agitated or irritated, it's always because there's something I'm fearful of. Often, it's even the fear of messing up. For me, I'm thinking of when I'm asked a question and I feel like I don't have enough time to solve it, and then I'm like, Oh, just whatever, that agitation, that irritation comes out. Really, it's a fear of I'm like, I wish we had more time. I would be able to solve this. I don't want to mess up. I don't want to give it. So And it's so interesting that what is actually well intentioned of a desire to want to get things right turns out to be experienced as that. And like you said, and like you mentioned, Ticknott Hans said, of being able to hold it as a baby or being able to... Yeah, it's almost like... It's so interesting, though, what you said about, not the skepticism that you have, but you were saying the overly sentimental version of holding a baby.

And I think often that is the perspective people have of these ideas, with mindfulness, with meditation, that, oh, it's sentimental, it's a bit fluffy, it's a bit woo-woo. And we know there's science behind it now, and those days should be gone, but they're not because there's still a skepticism and cynicism around the idea of like, oh, yeah, my fear is like, whatever, there's no fear, right? Because that in and of itself is trying to protect us from or trying to protect us from our fear. And so how have you seen in others and how have you and yourself been able to catch yourself double bluffing yourself or when you're almost... You're finding that way around doing the actual work.

One of the biggest and most reliable sources of feedback for me is defensiveness or dismissiveness. If I am dismissing something out of hand, it's usually something I should listen to. If I'm getting defensive, it's because there's something I know I should hear that I'm unwilling to hear at that moment. I I almost never catch it.

It's a great answer.

I almost never catch it in the moment. I almost never catch it in the moment. But it's usually when I feel embarrassed the next day. It's just I keep coming back to this. I'm so pissed that this person said this thing. It's like, Shit, they're probably right. I actually got an email the other day from, I won't say her name because she didn't give me permission, but from a great meditation teacher who was talking to me about something, and I didn't recall her getting defensive, but she recalled herself getting defensive about something. I was pushing her on something. She wrote me an email the next day. She was like, I woke up thinking about how I was defensive, and that means that there's something I really need to listen to there, so I'm going to go in that direction. You push me. That's usually how I get past the of a bluff.

Yeah, I think for me, it comes out in if I'm judging someone. So I find that if I'm judging someone, that there's a sense of truth that exists within me somewhere. And so I need to explore that That which I'm judging in someone else. And I've been working on that one, and that's the hardest one.

It's the most embarrassing, too, because it feels good to point at the other person. They're such a schmuck or whatever, But of course, you're seeing it so clearly, and you hate it so much because it's in you.

Yeah. And it's so funny because when you see it in them, you're like, how can they not be aware that they're like that? And at the same time, you're talking about yourself, and you recognize you're not even aware when you're like that. And I think that's where I notice where it's easy to double bluff myself and I have to be conscious of that. It goes along your lines, too. It's like you're building a story to support your view without evidence and without research and without looking at all of the facts. You've created a story that makes sense to you in order to fulfill your desire whatever that may be, and then you're not forced to actually look at yourself.

There's a great expression. If it's hysterical, it's historical. If you're getting hysterical about something, there's some It's some deep programming. Yeah, I hate admitting that.

Yeah, I think we're both going back and forth admitting all of our flaws and challenges and issues. But that's what meditation does, right? This is actually what's transpired without intention or maybe with intention. But actually, this is the benefit of practicing mindfulness and meditation is a really healthy relationship with all of your imperfections.

I mean, you interview all sorts of people, but you interview a lot of great folks from the meditation world. And so do I. And so in my experience, the common denominator among all All of the great spiritual masters, if that's a term that you're okay with, the common denominator is they all have a sense of humor. Because how can you look at this mind without laughing after a while? The word that my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein uses most frequently is ridiculous. Yes. Because we're ridiculous. We're ridiculous. It's so healthy to see that and laugh at it. Yeah, definitely.

Our teachers would obviously always talk about the monkey mind. And although that's somewhat of an alien analogy to some degree, at least when you've grown up in England or in the US, because you're not seeing monkeys all the time. But when I have gone to certain spiritual sites in India that are infiltrated with monkeys, it will only make you laugh. I've seen monkeys rip bags to steal fruit. I've seen monkeys steal people's sunglasses and then trade it back for food. I've seen I've seen monkeys steal credit cards and know how to barter for what they want. I've seen monkeys put on sunglasses. All you need to do... I mean, me and my wife went to Bali this year, and we went to the monkey forest there, and the monkeys are just hilarious and ridiculous is the word. It's almost like when you start seeing the habits of the mind as a monkey, it's so easy to laugh at it because you just realize how ridiculous it is and how hilarious they and how uncontrollable they are, as opposed to looking at it as this thing, almost like a Rubik's Cube, which we sometimes see it as.

And you get frustrated trying to figure it out. As opposed to when you look at a monkey, you go, well, a monkey is going to be a monkey. So I'm not surprised when my mind is ridiculous. I'm not expecting my mind to be this. You're never looking at a monkey expecting it to be sitting there meditating on top of a rock. You're expecting to see a monkey jump from branch to branch and swing and whatever else it may be and all All of a sudden, when you can... And you have to have had the real experience of that in order to even have that really sit. I'm like, if I hadn't seen... And then a couple of years ago, I went to Rwanda and we trekked with gorillas and we saw the little baby gorillas who were just playful and silly and the down to their laugh and just what they were like. You just start to recognize you need... This is why what you just said earlier, you mentioned it passively, but observing nature is such a beautiful way of understanding ourselves. Again, going back to your earliest point, our disconnection from each other in nature means we're only seeing systems and machines.

The way systems and machines work, and now our expectation of our mind to work the same way, I want to turn my mind off and I want to turn my mind on because we've seen the system of on and off on a light switch to a phone to a tablet for so many years now that we've lost the idea of, wait a minute, the sun sets and the sun rises, but it doesn't sun off and sun on. And we've It's lost that concept of there is no instant on and off, and there is no instant switch. There is only nature doing its cycle and its phases and its rituals, almost.

To pick up on the instant part of it. It takes me back to the first question you asked around stress, and we talked about some of the contributors. I think one of the contributors is that we live in a world that doesn't have enough friction, that we've created a world for young people, and To me, you're a young person because I'm in my 50s and you're in your 30s, but I have a nine-year-old who's a much younger person. There's a way that older people can blame younger people for this generation or kids today or whatever. But this is a world we've created for them, where there isn't a lot of friction. You can get everything you want on demand. As a consequence, people are intolerant of discomfort. That is creating a lot of anxiety because life is uncomfortable. There are going to be stressful and scary situations, and your ability to thrive is going to be directly correlated to your ability to handle this. If we don't get comfortable with discomfort, we're going to suffer. There are ways to work with this. One of them is this thing that it's a psychological term, opposite action.

I'll give you an example. I have intense claustrophobia. When your colleague, came to pick me up in the lobby of the hotel in which we're doing this interview and take me up the elevator, I said, I have to ride alone because I didn't want to have a panic attack in front of her. But I got on the elevator. I didn't want to. I thought about walking 30 flights, and I've done that before.

Sorry, I feel terrible now. I wish we would have known that.

How did you set this up, dude? What are you doing to me? No, I feel terrible. No, but the lesson here is that I need to get on elevators, That's the way out of this. It's opposite action. I need to do the thing I'm scared of. Carefully, I don't want to give myself a panic attack, although there are some people who argue that that is a way through this. But for me, I just gently expose myself to the stuff I'm afraid of. I actually look, I relish the opportunity to get on an elevator or to take a subway ride. I just have to do it in the right circumstances. I didn't inflict it upon Jordan. I just took a different elevator. I actually think this is one of ways out, one of the ways out of the epidemic of stress and anxiety that we began this conversation with, which is in whatever way in your own life, to just dose yourself carefully and gently with some discomfort, to take the opposite action, do the opposite of what you want to do, which may be to hide from the discomfort. Go to that party, accept the invitation.

Ask that person out for a cup of coffee. Press like on that Instagram post. Little steps like that will equip you and arm you to move through a world that is largely out of your control.

Dan, thank you so much. It's been such a joy talking to you today. I've really enjoyed how this conversation turned into the benefits of meditation without listing the benefits of meditation, but the acceptance of the benefits being a deeper awareness of who we are, what we need to improve, and doing that with love, with kindness, with gentleness, as opposed to hate, pressure, and stress that we often place on ourselves. But we end every episode with a final five, and these final five have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum each. And so, Dan, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice about mindfulness that you've ever heard or received?

Just start again.

I like that. Yeah, beautiful. The second question is, What is the worst advice about mindfulness or meditation that you've ever heard or received?

Clear your mind.

It's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad. It was almost marketed like that for a long A long time, for a long, long time. Question number three, how would you define your current purpose?

Make awesome shit that helps people do their lives better.

I love that. Question number four, a thought that you'd like to repeat more often?

Well, I got a tattoo recently. Oh, nice. It's an acronym F-T-B-O-A-B. It's way off brand for me in terms of it's cheesier than I like to be. But It's a Buddhist phrase for the benefit of all beings. We talked about my anger habit, but one of my other habits that I also mentioned that I don't like is a selfishness or greed. I really try to remind myself as much as possible. No, I'm answering this in more than a word. No, it's brilliant.

It's a great answer. It's a great answer. Please continue.

But I try to remind myself, yeah, this is for the benefit of all beings. The A, the all, I'm included in that. It's not like I can't make a living or whatever, But having it right here next to my watch, I'm trying to put that thought in my head more frequently.

I love that. That's a beautiful answer. Fifth and final question, which we asked every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

How long do most people pause? Because I'm thinking.

People take forever.

That's why you picked up the book. You're like, I'm going to read a chapter.

We either allow people to edit it out or they can have their thinking time in the edit, whatever they prefer. Okay.

What law?

Take your time. It's a fun question, so I prefer it when people think about it.

I don't think this is that you can legislate. I wouldn't want to force it, but it would be a strong suggestion, which is around kindness, which is that Maybe I'll use this phrase from the Dalai Lama that I like better than kindness, because kindness can sound very bland. Why selfishness? If you want to do selfishness correctly, you will be thinking about the benefit of all beings to the best of your ability, because that is how you will get happier. If we lived our lives, all of us, with that as a North Star, which, again, I don't know if I could make it Allah, but I could make it a strongly held policy. I think that would change a lot. I think that would change. I'm not a utopian. I don't believe that we can create a perfect world, but I think that we can create a much better world if we play to people's self-interest in a way that really is in their self-interest instead of the fleeting dopamine hits that we're selling people on now, that actually your abiding happiness is going to be found in kindness. I wish there was a less cheesy way to say that.

That's a great answer. I love it.

Everyone- More than a sentence.

It's perfect. It was perfect. The 10th anniversary edition of Dan's book, 10% Happier: How I tamed the voice in my head, reduced stressed without losing my edge, and found self-help that He Works, A True Story, is available right now, of course, with the 10th anniversary edition. That's amazing. Congratulations. That's really beautiful.

I am so much grayer now than when the book came out.

Of course, subscribe to Dan's podcast, 10% Happier as well. Dan, thank you so much for coming on to On purpose. This was such a refreshing and really beautiful, organic conversation. I appreciate you going there with me because that's the space I've been in on the show recently of wanting to get lost with someone.

Right, just to go into a flow. It's so interesting to meet you because... This is a long way of saying thank you. It's just so interesting to meet you because I've seen you from afar for a million years. Then just to walk into this hotel room, you're like this dude who just shows up, Hey, how are you doing? You're way more casual and down to earth than I might have expected. It's really fun to put an actual person to the name.

That's very sweet. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much. Maybe we're doing a terrible job with the branding. If that's not how I come across.

No, it's my own It's paranoia. It's my own paranoia. No, it's so funny.

I'm like, God, the guys, we're going to get it together. No, I really appreciate that. Thank you so much.

That's usually when I meet a... I've met a lot of well-known people in my job as a journalist because I have my job to interview them. It's rare that I like people more after meeting them based on their public persona. That's what I was trying to say.Thank you.

That's very kind.In a clunky way. That's very kind. I really appreciate that. Thank you. I receive that deeply. And I think it's really hard. I've definitely struggled with this. I can only be fully myself with someone I'm in person with. It's impossible to... I find it impossible to be your whole self on a 30-second video. If someone listens to the podcast, I feel they know me because they're hearing full conversations of an hour each week or every day, some people listen to it. I feel like someone listens to the podcast, they have a deep, deep understanding of me or if they've read the books. But if someone's just seeing something on social media, they have such a limited view. It's so hard to portray yourself in that way or in your true self. So I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Thank you, Dan.Thanks for having me.It's been a real treat. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.

You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months, and then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief. There's no sense of meaning and purpose. You expected it, and you would have been disappointed if it in the happen.

Hey, I'm Giana Pradenti. And I'm Jamai Jackson-Gadston. We're the host of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeartPodcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And If we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Mori Teheri Pour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Get emotional with me, Radhi De Vluukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry.

We're going to be talking with some of my best friends.

I didn't know we were going to go there on this.

People that I admire. When we say, Listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.

Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy.

Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one.

Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi De Vluukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.