Transcript of Bill Gates: The Untold Story of Who Bill Gates REALLY Is

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This is a world where somebody can have over $100 billion. What is that? These fortunes are almost illegitimate, unless in a very smart way, give them back.

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Bill Gates. Starting with Microsoft, where I had monomaniical focus giving up weekends and vacation. It wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it. The idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed. So it was fun saying, No, no, this is really going to be mainstream.

If you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy.

What was it actually like? He said we were the General Motors, and he was Mercedes. Social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be. Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if not at all factual. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was. He would say, Hey, I'm sorry, I worked so hard. And I'd say, No, no, that was fine. I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did. It brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.

Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him? The number one Health and Wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. He won the only Bill Gates, welcome to On Purpose. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I'm so grateful. Great to be here. I have to start by saying that when I was reading source code, I believe I got an unbelievable perspective and a deep sense of gratitude that I didn't have before for how hard it is to build code, software, and computers. I really feel that my generation and beyond have often taken for granted these inventions. And so I just wanted to start by saying that's what took me by surprise, and I was blown away as to the challenges of getting access to even using a computer through being given permission through to all the other battles that came with that journey, I was really, really amazed and taken aback. So thank you for that. How does that feel hearing that?

The idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed. So it was fun to be part of a movement saying, no, no, this is really going to be mainstream. We're going to make them cheaper and better. The fact that I was lucky enough, through my experience, to be in on that secret and to get to lead the way, seeing that software would be the missing piece. I couldn't have been more lucky, and now that's given me a lot of resources to give back.

Absolutely. That's what I wanted to ask you the first question was, what would you say is the most recent invention that you've genuinely been impressed by? Because I imagine that's quite hard for you, but is there a consumer product or something that really took you by surprise and that you would say impressed you?

Well, my whole career has been about innovation, whether it's Microsoft with software and now all this incredible AI advance. I do work on climate, which we're trying to come up with innovation that can make clean products cost as little as the dirty products so we can get them out there. And then my full-time work is the Gates Foundation, where we're always coming up with new vaccines, new drugs. We're even trying to come up with a way to cure HIV so you don't have to keep taking the medicine there. And I'd say the current work to understand why kids get malnourished is the thing I'm most excited about. 40% of kids in Africa don't develop their body their brain and understanding, okay, what is it? They're getting enough calories, but there's something about that mix that they never achieve their potential either for themselves individually or for the country that they're part of. So I've gotten to be... There's so many cool innovations, and the pace of all of that is going faster today than ever in my lifetime. So it's a real privilege to work with innovators and back some them on things like malaria or malnutrition, which the market doesn't get resources to do that work.

And that's where philanthropy can make a very dramatic difference.

Absolutely. And as you were saying, discovering your potential was something that really happened for you on a lot of hikes that you went on in the book. And I loved learning about how being outdoors was such an integral part of your childhood and growing up. And I was wondering if you could go on any hike in the world, anywhere right now, where would it be? Where would you choose to be?

I take a lot of vacations near beaches, and I enjoy whoever I'm with getting two or three hours walking on the beach. That's a great way to get updates from my kids and have them share what they're doing. I will say the forest hiking that I did as a child up in the Seattle area, it's called the Olympic Peninsula there. There's just unbelievable hikes. And even though in that group of boys, I was the least capable hiker, and I would always vote for the shortest hike and going home the soonest. Just the camaraderie and the beauty was so stunning. I really have to get back and do some of those. I haven't done a lot of that since I was young.

Wow. Is it just a lack of time?

Yeah, I got myself so busy. Starting with Microsoft, where I had a monomaniacal focus, giving up weekends and vacation because I wanted to move faster. It wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it, but it meant that I shut a lot of other things out. And then only when I retired from Microsoft did I get to go back and take a little more time off and see all the other great things going on in the world, including all this health stuff that is the thing I spend the most time on now.

Yeah, there's so much conversation today, I feel, about work-life balance. Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time was necessary for the levels of success, or would it have been possible in another way?

No, I think for Microsoft to be successful, even though we were the first and we had a broader concept of software than the other companies. We needed to be what I would call hardcore. And in that case, the work is what I want to do. It's not like, oh, God, I've got to earn a little bit more money. It's this is the thing that throughout my childhood, I was so lucky because of my parents and some early friends, the school I went to, I had these exposures to computers that were very rare. And so I had all these thousands of hours of programming experience and great feedback on, okay, how do you do it better from the very best adults? I got to see what was coming. And The idea of being part of making that real, I woke up and said, okay, I'd love to get to work. My younger self could stay in days at a time. I don't do that now. But then it was just in no way a hardship because I felt we were part of something that would be very empowering. Competitively, I wanted us to be the ones to make it happen.

One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is you've said, We overestimate what we can do in one year, and we underestimate what we can do in 10 years. At the beginning, did you overall underestimate yourself?

Well, people, when they would hear us say a computer on every desk and in every home, Home running Microsoft software, they were like, You kids are really out of it. I mean, every desk, every home, what would people do with these things? But because the chips were improving exponentially, doubling every couple of years, it allowed us to think of the computing part as essentially being free. And so the only thing that would hold you back is, okay, can you help people with photographs? Can you help them with documents? Can you help them stay in touch with people far away or find information? We knew over time that as these things got better, it would be part of the mainstream. And so So as people came around to that, they were like, wow, whether it's at work or at home, this is just part of how people do things. We wanted to get it out to everyone, students everywhere, even in the countries that are low income.

You mentioned your parents earlier, and when I was reading this book, I felt like they are such a big part of this book and the storytelling and the incredible experiences and memories. And one of the things you mentioned is you say that they felt that they accepted that you were different from your peers. And I was wondering in what way? How did you know that they'd seen that and accepted that?

Well, it definitely confounded them that sometimes I was pushing back in a pretty tough way as though we were in some competition. They would hear from teachers, and they were very good about staying in touch with my teachers. Some teachers would say, this kid should be skipped ahead one or two grades. Some teachers would say, this kid should be held back. So that is what? Make up your mind. I had one experience where I worked on a report about the state of Delaware, and I ended up doing this 200-page report with the Great Wood cover. Well, the other kids turned in five or 10-page reports. It was very embarrassing that I thought, wow, did I overdo this thing? And yet that ability to concentrate It would hold me in good stead in terms of reading long books and applying that concentration and curiosity first to cards, then to math, and then finally to software, and how would software change the world. But they never were quite sure what to do. And sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant, and sending me to a very nice private school where the classes were a a bit smaller, and I always got an unfair share of attention from the teachers.

We'd have 15 people in the class, but almost 20 % of the teacher's time in terms of telling me what to read or marking my writing up. I got an unfair share, partly because my curiosity or energy level did mark me out in both positive and negative ways. Yeah.

What influence do you think Dr. Cressy actually had on you because therapy at that time and in your early age, looking back on it now, what do you feel it gave you? What skills did it give you?

Well, it was a very rare thing. In fact, the other people coming to him were these couples that were having arguments. And so in a I hope, privacy-appropriate way, he would give me a sense of that. He gave me a few IQ tests. He had me read about Freud and all these things. But slowly but surely, he was saying to me that fighting your parents really has no purpose. I mean, they really do love you. They're on your side. You should apply your energy towards other things. Eventually, he made me feel foolish. Like, yeah, Why was I taking these? What I thought were arbitrary rules or where my mom would say, you should respect me. I'd say, well, I don't know. A little bit as I figured out, I could understand things like playing cards as well or better than my grandmother, or I could read books that had complicated things. I was a bit showing off to saying, because my cognition is good, why should you be able to set arbitrary rules? But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I think about it now. But Dr. Cressy was so encouraging to me in general, and then got across.

He probably understood at the first meeting that I had to be convinced to make this change, but he did it in a super nice way. And so the idea that, no, my parents, yes, they're imperfect, but, wow, they're on my side, that changed my behavior.

Yeah. And did He also had these beautiful ways of you said he never belittled you. And I believe he used to mention to you you're going to win or he wanted you to win. And I feel like that's... What did those things do? Because it's almost like you're saying he made you have this almost There was this realization that you were wrong, but it seemed like he did it in a very graceful, elegant way.

How did he do that? Absolutely. I thought, oh, I need to be so clever to win, and I'm going to apply all this energy to win. And so the idea when he says, no, you're going to win, it's like, oh, I see. It's not because I'm clever, it's because they care for me and they're trying to help me. Their main concern is, am I ready to go out in the world? And if I have capabilities, will I develop those and use those? My mom always had a way of pushing me to do more. I said to her once, you told me to go to the heart of school. She said, no, I never actually said that. And I said, well, wait a minute. When other parents would come over, you'd say how bad they must feel that their kid didn't go to college or something like So okay, it was indirect, but it was there. My mom certainly encouraged me, and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by that. But my eventual reaction to just, okay, try to outdo any level, she said, and ended up working out well.

Yeah. What was something that you didn't value about your mom at that time, that now, looking back, you say, no, I do value that?

Well, things like table manners. I'm like, Well, okay, I have to take the ketchup and put it in a bowl and then do this, and I'm not supposed to put my elbows on the table. She was just trying to make sure I was civilized a little bit, what I would wear. They definitely got me engaged with adults. My social skills were slow to develop with people other than a few boys like myself. But with adults, because they were having them and I got so I could ask those adults to talk about what they were doing. That was really valuable to me because I ended up through that and through one of my early friends, having more of an outlook of, okay, where am I headed at quite a young age, which was super helpful.

Yeah. It's so funny. As I was reading the book, I was reminded of, so when I graduated from college, I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left to become a monk. And my parents were... They were very kind in accepting of my decision, but my mother still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture of me graduating, wearing the hat and holding my certificate. And I remember I was having the same feeling that you were, where my mom would always say to me, oh, when I go to my friend's houses, they're telling me about all the jobs that their kids are doing and the apartment they just moved into, and you're just there being a monk. She'd say that to me. It was always that feeling, that sense of pressure to live up to something she wanted me to do, even though there was love and there was acceptance. And I was wondering for you, you said it yourself, she was such a powerhouse. She had such high expectations. When did you feel that you've reached that? Or do you feel you've reached that?

Well, unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early '60s. She got breast cancer. And so I had gotten married six months before she passed us away. She never got to see that I tried to follow her example as a parent. She never got to see the foundation, get going. My dad actually ran the foundation and got it off to a fantastic start, so he was involved. But her dictate about, okay, if you are successful, you have to give back. It's a shame that she didn't get to participate and see that I'm following what she said despite all the times I push back on her.

Yeah. Do you still feel that today, that it's almost like her voice is in your head and she's present in that way?

No, absolutely. The sense I have of, okay, I've got to do this and do that, well, that really came from her. My dad more set the example of being calm and thoughtful, also great values. But it wasn't through the the interaction, he would leave pretty early. If my mom had to escalate to call him in, you knew you better give in because that was the ultimate thing. But, yeah, so each in their own way, He, through example, her, through high expectations, deserve a lot of credit. Part of this book is to really honor them and two of the young friends I had who set me on a a great path.

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That's drinkjuni. Com. And make sure you use the code on purpose. I was wondering, what was your biggest realization realization about your father from writing this book?

It's weird. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was. His values, even the exchange with my mom before they get married. One of his dreams was to be a federal judge, and eventually that was offered to him. Because his law firm would have had great difficulty, he said, No, that would hurt my colleagues, so I'm not going to do that. And I had written him a note saying, Gosh, I hope it's not because you had to pay all that tuition that you're not getting to do this. And I'd forgotten he'd written me back such a nice note. In digging through, I'm amazed we ended up keeping those things. It was so touching to me. I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to the example he said.

What was it like finding that reply, forgetting that he had replied?

Well, certainly it brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible. And towards the end of his life, we did get a little more direct where he would say, Hey, I'm sorry, I worked so hard. And I'd say, No, no, no, that was fine to be doing that. Instead of things being through my mom, when she was gone, he had to build up that communication. In a way, it was far more intimate. I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did.

How does that... As that relationship evolves, it felt like when I was reading source code, I felt like your father was there to always save you in these moments. He'd pick up the phone, he'd be involved in talking to you and your friends. He was there in these very pivotal moments that felt like almost professional support from him, of course, based on his intelligence and background as well. But it sounds like that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space. What does that look like for a father and a son across all those years When I was going off to college, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks, but you couldn't text and send photos.

But I always knew that they were supportive. And so I actually got into a little bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the computer center and done some of the early Microsoft basic work. And the college, as they filled position to supervise that computer center, we're like, wow, did you break the rules? My dad was always so wise. When I ever was like, Oh, my God, I may have screwed up here. I better get on top of this. That's a time where I call him in and his advice is very helpful. Then later, we have a customer who's not paying us, and our very first customer, another case where my dad encouraged me to stay the course. So It wasn't in those days that I talked to him a lot, but that when I was in trouble, he was the one person who was so sophisticated and on my side that his advice really did help me at a lot of key turning points. Then later, when we have a relationship where we actually talk intimately, I was able to thank him for that.

Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him?

Well, he got Alzheimer's, and because he was such a nice person, he was still super nice, always worried, did his caregivers get enough meals? Or eventually, the fact he grew up in the depression showed because he'd be worried about, are we buying too expensive a meal, even though he had as much money as he could ever need. So we He got back to his basic character, which was just very friendly and thoughtful. So, yes, I feel like in his case, we did have those conversations that I never got to have with my mom.

There's the one phone call you described the three words he used of, I hear you, when he was talking to the school, and that left such a strong imprint. Could you tell us why that was such a big moment for you at that time?

I was in this contract discussion with this group I thought owed me some computer time. That's the first time that my dad is pitching in to help. I thought, What's he going to do? Is he going to threaten them or be tough on them? No, not at all. The fact that they gave their side of the argument, and then he just simply said, I you, which was this way of saying, I don't agree with that. Let's try and reach a compromise here. You have your point of view. Just the way he said, I hear you, kept things really calm, didn't acknowledge or attack their position so we could get on to the, Hey, if you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both of you here which is what eventually came out of it. And so the idea of being subtle and helping to find that common ground, I was young enough that was blew my mind. Yeah, wow. You can hold your ground, but without being provocative.

What would you say is the one way your mother influenced your parenting style and then your father influenced your parenting style?

Well, this idea that was actually a school called Love and logic, where you make expectations to the child very, very clear, and you make consequences very, very clear. In an unemotional way, you say, no, you're going to have to go to your room because we agreed if you did this, that's what happens. My dad practiced that approach. My mom probably wanted to, but then if she was frustrated, she'd be, oh, I'm so disappointed, and bring emotion into it. The intensity I, of how much my mom cared, I think that was great. I think that calm, predictable, Hey, the world works in a clear way, and I'm on top of the world, and here's what I need from you. That very much came from my dad. I tried to be a little more around. My wife, Melinda, deserves all the credit that our kids have come out as well because she really was around. But I tried to be... That's the one thing I did a bit differently than my dad was more intense vacation time, a little bit more of a direct communication, not through their mother.

How did you reconcile that towards the end about your father's style, and how did you make space for that and accept that?

In that generation, my dad's career was a very big thing. In fact, having all sorts of adults around for events was connected to his career. And he did very well. He was a top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented the idea that my dad was very busy. You had kids early. The man's career is important. Later, my mom also not only is doing volunteer activities, but as people wanted women on boards because she had the right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities, and she got a little busier self. I don't think the amount of time is the only key factor there.

Yeah, I'd have to agree. When I was reading it, too, I was thinking that... And this is what I found so interesting Bill, when I was reading source code that even though you have lived such a otherworldly life in so many ways, there were so many relatable moments from a parenting standpoint. And when I was reading it, I was thinking about my father, too, who wasn't around a lot when I younger. He was working. Both my parents had to work. And to the point you just made right now, my father wasn't there when I was playing rugby, or he wasn't there when I was swimming for my local club, or he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering And for me, that really allowed me to become the man I wanted to be. And it allowed me to have more freedom, almost, to not feel like there was this heavy expectation. And I've always seen that as a positive thing because it allowed me to have a broader definition of what it meant to be a man, what it meant to be a son, what it meant to go off and discover something that I was passionate about.

And so even seeing you having your mother be the one who was almost pushing the expectation and what the family should be, but then having a bit of freedom, it was interesting to see how that impacted you to be able to push back, to be able to, even at one point, like you said in that letter, parent him almost in his decision and play that role. So It was refreshing for me to read a book about you where I was actually seeing parts of myself in certain relationships in a very relatable way. Did you ever anticipate that when you were writing it?

I was surprised. So when I'm describing going on those hikes, I was thinking, boy, would I have let my son go off? We really are holding back children a bit more out of a sense of, okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But in that generation, I was allowed to take trips and hikes, and I think it benefited me. And so writing the book, I was like, wow. You've talked with people like Jonathan Hyde about this. Are we a bit over protecting kids so that they don't get to make mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that is best for them?

Do you think schools failing If you have 30 people in a class, it's pretty tough.

You're going to have some kids who are behind and some are ahead. Even the best teacher has got a big challenge with that. Education, I wouldn't say, is much better or worse today than a few decades ago. We've always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in, will that helpful? And certainly, if you want to find information, it's been great. We're still working on that now with the AI, maybe a personal tutor will be encouraging and work on your level. It's early days, but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms, people like Saul Kohn with Kohn Amigo that our foundation is helping to support. But education, the computer has not made it so, oh, wow, kids learn a lot more today than they did a long time ago. And I still believe we can change that. But it means if you're in one of those large classes, you can feel lost. And we're missing great human potential.

What are we getting wrong? Because it sounds like you felt maybe the computer would give people that impetus and the ability to download more and learn more. Where have we gone wrong?

Well, the key is motivation. If you have a kid who's super motivated, then yes, going to the con website and doing hours of math problems, that's great. But in a way, that takes the kid who's in that top 20 % and makes him even more intimidating to the other ones. People can come in and if a kid in eighth grade says, Is math a subject you have any confidence in? If the or no to that, they're five times more likely to drop out. We do lose kids, and it's more out of motivation. Most of the stuff we've done on the computer is about, okay, if you are motivated, we'll help you out, and not so much about how you make it feel relevant to them and give them a sense of success. Maybe this time around with these AI personal tutors, we'll get that right. But kids check out No, I'm not one of those kids who's good at math, even though for a lot of professions and for college courses, we require Algebra 2 tests to be passed in order to go and even be a nurse or a policeman. So we have work to do, but more on the motivational side.

Yeah, I really appreciate you saying that, actually, because I do think that we think about changing education is so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive. It is the motivation. And I was thinking about how we put limits on ourselves. When I finished sixth grade, I remember before I went to high school, my favorite subject was math in sixth grade, and my least favorite subject was art. And then when I finished high school, my most favorite subject was art, and my least favorite subject was math. It was just fascinating to me how that completely flipped over a seven-year period. As I've grown up in my own life, I found that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where I naturally gravitate toward. But so much of that up until sixth grade was the limits or the things that were expected of me as opposed to what I was motivated and driven towards. And I was thinking about something you said in the book, you said that if you were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum. And I was wondering, how would that have affected you?

How do you think that would have affected you?

Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people being given a label is a pejorative to them and almost feels shameful. Although we know being on the spectrum gives you almost some super powers of concentration that if you find the right place, it can be helpful. Other people, they're glad when they get that because then they say, Oh, that's why my social skills were slowed to develop. Here's some strategies that people like me have used. I'm not alone in this. I fit into this, and it's actually a reasonably common thing. There isn't some medicine, ADHD, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with They do have the Fulcalin, Adderall, a variety of things. They give kids for that. I still wonder about that. I haven't chosen as an adult to get a diagnosis or use those medicines. I think eventually you learn to adapt. I still rock a little bit when I'm thinking hard and without even knowing it. It does bother people sometimes. That's definitely what they call self-stimulation behavior that makes it pretty likely I fit into that diagnosis.

Do you think it would have changed your trajectory or success? Have you thought about that?

I worry that I might have thought of it as a pejorative. It's really how you communicate it. I mean, if you say, Hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize at all, and you're destined to never be good at those things. Obviously, to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go out and sell the dream of computing, I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, develop a lot of social behaviors. It might have discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way. I think of that Dr. Cressy experience where he didn't make me feel terrible how enlightening me that I was wasting my time as well as my parents' time.

Yeah. Did you continue therapy after that or ever go therapy again? Yes.

Most periods of my life, I found it useful to have a therapist where I'm talking to about what's confusing or what's troubling. I think I'm very lucky to have that. I think, particularly if you have a life where some extreme things happen, that luck is a huge part of that to keep you on the ground. A good therapist can play an invaluable role there. So, yeah, I We've benefited to this day from those conversations.

Yeah. Well, I was thinking about in the book, obviously, you beautifully introduced us to Kent. And obviously, the loss of Kent seems to be a place in your memory that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy. And you talk about in the book how you're not quite sure what your parents would have said and how it all felt. And I was just wondering if there were any... Did you have support at that time through therapy and other ways to deal with that grief?

No. And I've been looking recently at people like Anderson Cooper talking about, okay, how do you deal with grief? A lot of what they come up with is that if you can keep talking about the person and what you got from them, you're honoring them. Kent's parents, obviously, were the most affected by this because they would never have this incredible son who would have, no doubt, gone off and done incredible things. I remember spending time with them for a year afterwards and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy, I didn't do that as much. In the book, I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father. I run into him right as I'm starting work on the book, and we can talk about what a great influence he had on me. I did think that was helpful, but boy, it took me a long time because death, it was just such a shocking thing. I have this idyllic childhood other than Ken's death, nothing at all dramatic. We're talking all the time. A little bit, I reach out to Paul to feel Paul Allen, who goes on to found Microsoft with me to step in and be that super close friend.

But back then, the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly, hey, buck up, get on with things, which after a few months, I did.

Yeah. And also at that time, you're talking about how he actually invited you on the trip he went to. And you're talking just before before he goes off. And then all of a sudden you're like, wait a minute, we used to talk every day. It can feel so disassociated from yourself in that moment, it feels like. How did you revisit that? Did you turn towards working through the grief as you wrote the book? Did it feel like you were revisiting it because it was left behind?

Definitely. At that high school, when I built a hall in his name and gone out there and talked a little bit about the role that Kent played in my evolution. So some efforts to honor him. Sadly, Paul Allen, also the other key friend in this book, died, I think about six years ago from cancer. And he also was very key at getting me on the right path. And there wouldn't be without those two friends There really probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.

Yeah. You talk about how Paul was setting you little challenges and would ask you to try this or do that, and then you'd go ahead. And I was thinking, how amazing to have a friend that can motivate and inspire you in that way. And then I was thinking about what you just said when I was reading the book that it felt like you told so many stories of so many people in your life that are no longer here now. And so grief wasn't just about Ken or Paul. There's just so many individual skills that you've had life with that you're having to process that with what has been helpful for you genuinely deeply inside that has led to some helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about all these wonderful people that you've lost?

Well, most of my life has been about looking forward and, okay, let's get this innovation. Let's do it first. And whether it's software saving children's lives, which is the big foundation thing. It is a little bit unnatural for me to look back because you have to say, okay, how do I describe my relationship with my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her How do I talk about Kent? Where I don't know if he'd lived what would have happened, but probably something that he would have very much been a part of it. It's awkward to look back because you have to deal with these things and talk about, Should I have I spent more time with his parents afterwards? Because eventually, I stopped doing that. But this year, I turned 70. I mentally don't feel like I think of a 70-year-old, but it means I'm in the final third, no doubt, of what I've been very lucky to live. I really did force myself to say, no, there's some lessons out of this, telling people how lucky I was and maybe a few lessons for them as parents or how they navigate success.

And so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it quite a bit. I have to say, when I'm reviewing it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm reliving these things. So it always takes me about three times longer to take some pages and edit than I predict. Or if it was something like about climate or pandemics, I'm pretty fast. There's no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing something scientific.

What was your favorite part to relive and what was the hardest part to relive?

Well, everything about the fascination we had. And you're like, God, we see this thing. These computers are going to be amazing. But no one else is saying that, so we must be wrong.

That's crazy.

And that contradiction. So Paul, actually, I helped him get a job out in Boston, so he could be out there and bugging me that, okay, should we go build a company? And then finally, when this kit computer, which is so limited, but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes out, then Paul's argument, we should go and do something, he wins because we don't want to be left behind. We want to be there from the very beginning. And then we meet a few people, although it was still a very small movement. We meet other people like Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, who also have been infected with this idea of, okay, we're on to something that is going to be huge.

Paul, the research that you did to find in this book, every time I was reading, I was just like, how do you have so much detail I was really blown away by the level of detail, both in the storytelling every moment. But then even there's that note that you have that says, Steve Jobs called Was Rude. Even just having that back then I was laughing as I read it. I was wondering, I feel like from the outside, naturally, and you talk about this later on in the book, how we see people as this slither of who they are, and people have a public profile, and that it becomes their brand. And if you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, archrival, nemesis, portrayal. What was it actually like? Because in the book, it comes across much more inviting than that, as opposed to this harsh rivalry?

Well, I had a fantastic relationship with Steve. Early on, I got to do the basic, which they called applesop, that went with every apple Apple to a computer. So I worked with both jobs at Moisniak to get that done. Then later, as Steve has a small group inside Apple doing the Macintosh, he invited Microsoft to write application software, a spreadsheet word processor for it. And so we actually had as many people as they did. And we worked very closely on that project. And he and I loved the fact that that ended up being a key Apple product. Product. Then he leaves Apple. I talked to him about next, but I never thought that computer would do that well, so he was disappointed. But then when he goes back and it's unbelievable what a great job he did because Apple went from being on the way to dying to being the world's most valuable company. And Steve had really matured, and it was something. And we helped write software for that. Then later, when Steve is sick, we had about five different conversations where we got to talk about kids and had computers done well and where he was pretty thoughtful.

It's amazing to me that Steve, his skillset and mind, other than, okay, madman, leader, drawing people in, but his taste in design and user interface and even his intuition about people, he was just genius in a way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and write code, whereas my thing is, hey, I'm an engineer. Here's the code, let's make it faster and smaller. Actually, that allowed us to get along because what he was super good at, I was not good at. I envied those just incredible talents that he had. In some ways, he's more singular. If you say to me, are there other people like you who are great at writing code and conceptualizing? Yeah, I can name a number of people, including many who worked with me. But I don't know somebody who I say, oh, yeah, he's just like Steve Jobs.

Well, that's very humble of you as well. I mean, it's beautiful to hear. What were some of those final conversations like that you had with him that were potentially... I always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more so in those moments.

Yeah, we did one public appearance where we were being thoughtful about the friendship. Walt Mossberg had us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing and surprised people because Steve was very harsh. He was always He said we were the General Motors, and he was like the Mercedes. But it was all very fair. We reflected that computers really hadn't improved education, and we're both I had given speeches saying, of course, this will make education five times better. And we were like, wow, we got that one wrong. Maybe next round, we'll deliver on that promise. And how unusual it was, even a little bit lonely, that when you were so successful and then you're having doubts about, okay, are we making mistakes here? Both of us had kids by then. He was actually, of course, he not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff. And because that was a realm I'm not in, I could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did. Now, partly picking people, but that's amazing. Now part of Disney. And both a sense of thankfulness, although he was very sick and just hoping some new the drug would come along, and tragically, it didn't.

Was there a memorable piece of advice or conversation where you said something to him or he said something to you that has stayed with you?

Well, the fact that why were we both so competitive and pushing ahead? I think both of us, in his case, he's an orphan, so he has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal. I don't have anything like that. Even though Kent died, that's not why well Before that, I was somehow always pushing as hard as I could be. I think both of us being thankful for what we'd been able to work on. We got more of a front row seat and help build this thing. Steve never got around to doing philanthropy. Now, his widow, Lorraine, is doing great philanthropy. I'm sure he And he'd be proud of that. But he didn't get to that stage, and I was just getting into that stage. So I shared with them a little bit about, wow, a lot of children die, and we don't do much to stop that. And that intrigued him, but then he never got to pursue it.

Yeah, you're reminding me of something I read in Bob Iger's book where he was talking about how there was a time when Spielberg, George Lucas, they'd all sit together and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback. And they all felt very confident doing that because they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse. And so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well, Steven's going to steal my idea or George Lucas is going to steal my idea because they felt so confident. And it sounds like even for yourself as competitors, to talk, to have a relationship. Does that still happen today? Do competitors talk? Do they pick up the phone to each other? Was that very rare? Because it feels definitely now so less.

I have a good friendship, both with Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Maybe that drives everybody else together. I don't know. Over time, I think Elon, as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow out a little bit and probably be an incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done. But yes, there is some good conversation. Larry Ellison is now in a phase where he's doing some excellent philanthropy, and we're all a bit more reflectful. I mean, hopefully by the time you get to 70, you've been hyper-successfully. You can relax and let your guard down a little bit and laugh about the things you got wrong.

Yeah. What was some of the advice that you've given to Mark, especially earlier on his journey or even more recently?

Yeah, well, Microsoft, the one big challenge we had is we were so successful by the late '90s that we got into, and I trust difficulties. In retrospect, we could have handled that better. I've been very open with Mark. I used to break that I didn't have an office in DC, and what a great country that I didn't have to talk to politicians. Well, that was a mistake. Now you've got all of them going to the inauguration. They're not making that mistake. Have they corrected too much in other direction? Well, history will judge. So, yeah, it's weird to be an elder statesman. Satya, who runs Microsoft, has done such a brilliant job. And one of my great fears when I left Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would feel if it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Ballmer did a great job, and now Satya is with this AI generation. So that's another great blessing is that But not only the value of the stock, but also the fact I can just focus on, okay, what about polio and malaria, knowing that they're taking the company to new heights. What a great blessing that's been for me.

Yeah. It seems like I love what you were just saying now that maybe there'll be a time when Elon turns to philanthropy and you talked about others, and it seems that that turning point for you is so key. And I feel like you were one of the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one of the first to do it in a really big way to be able to move away from this big company that you founded, world-changing, generation-changing, and then turning to that. That And the service element, to me, I was intrigued as to why do you believe that that's almost where every one of these people need to go? Why is it that you believe that turning to a life of service and giving back is core for Elon or whoever else it may be?

Well, it's Are you saying this is a world where somebody can have over $100 billion. I mean, what is that? You don't want to just give that to children and create some dynasty, that's not even a favorite to them. You want to give that back. So these are unprecedented fortunes. If you're a great innovator and you know how to gather scientists together and think about problems, Then there are some government is risk averse, and particularly poor countries don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or solving malnutrition. There is something that philanthropy can have these outsized results in terms of lives saved, almost like a great startup does on the side of innovation. So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity to the poorest, both inside the US and outside the US. I feel that we've got the golden rule. We're supposed to care about people. There are times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside the country is lower today than it's been. But I know that will come back around because of the moral logic there, I think, I believe, is is very, very strong. I found it so fulfilling.

I created a group called Giving Pleadge of people who've committed to give the majority of their wealth away. We learn from each other. Hopefully, we inspire each other. Hopefully, we change the societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune, most of it should combine with your talents and make the world a bit more of a fair It's a fair place.

Yeah, I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really fortunate when I went out and lived as part of my time as a monk in India, we helped put together a... Well, the monks were doing already, but I got to be a part of it. I to help build a daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million kids a day. It was all in exactly what you're saying, to help them malnutrition children. Now they're even trying to figure out how much protein to have in it, trying to figure out the actual composition as well. And I remember seeing that so early in my life. I would have gone out there first time in my teens, and then later on when I became a monk in my early 20s. But the reason I raise it is because I think it goes back to the point you made earlier about motivation. And one thing I've really been trying to figure out with the right partner recently is how when I grew up, I remember my dad used to read the Rich List, and he'd have the Rich List, like the Sunday Times or whatever it was.

And so When I was a kid, I would see my dad, and on the back of it would be the Rich List. And I was thinking, how incredible would it be if kids grew up with a service list? And how would that change motivation? Because I feel we repeat what we reward. And I feel like we've never really seen that case study yet up until maybe your case study and the people that are following with the Giving pledge, that service becomes a natural part of life at that scale. I think we see it in smaller communities. You see people with very little actually doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at that level. And so I find that changing that drive and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother had for you, your impact of faith had in you, I think that could be huge. I don't know what you think about people seeing a service list instead of a rich list or whatever the right word is.

Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than the impact you've had philanthropically. And part of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there. I've tried to think through, okay, since we know how to save lives for $1,000 per life saved, wow, we better use this money as absolutely best we can. And I do think we're going to see a rise in philanthropy. I mean, these fortunes are almost illegitimate in Unless they are in a very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty, I don't think society should feel that good about it. I sat down with Bernie Sanders and he said, no, he would outlaw billionaires. I think that's a mistake. I think allowing in America, in particular, wild innovation, wild risk-taking is good. But then on the back side of that, there should be a strong expectation. And I think role models help a lot. Warren Buffet in very different industry, very different skillset. He's always been a role model. He was the one who even when I was still building the fortune said, Okay, your mom is right. And here's some books you should read, Carnegie, Gospel of Well, the history of what Rockefeller did, because this this will be as important a measure of your impact as making the money.

Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful one to pass on. I think it was Trump who mentioned recently that you'd asked to see him to have a discussion. Did that meeting ever happen?

Yeah, I had a very long and actually very impressive dinner in terms of he asked good questions. I talked about over 10 million people are alive because of US generosity with HIV medicines, going back to President Bush in 2003. I encourage him to keep that as a priority and to accelerate innovation. There's an idea that you might be able to curate what we're working on, and he could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and how his leadership and US government resources are very important there. I'm sure everybody's trying to meet with him. The fact he gave me that long period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions. Somebody may come along later and tell him to cut that money, but I make the argument as best I can that the moral purpose of the US and how we're thought of and the fact that a cure is on its way, that's worthwhile. So this administration is in charge and trying to help them. They're willing to cancel old things, some of which should maybe be canceled, some of which shouldn't. So they're helping direct them so they'll use their open-mindedness to do different things and try and make that come out well.

And I think that's worth trying.

Yeah. What do you see as the moral purpose of the United States in the way you mentioned it just now?

Well, we've been the shining light of not only being a democracy ourselves and That having political opponents respect each other and work well together, but also saying that even though we're in this very powerful position, we won't abuse that position. And okay, if we allowed ourselves to let other people spend too little on some things, there's a balance there. But if you become too much of a bully and you're not keeping democracy, which we're requires reducing the polarization and bridging some of these divides, that's a little bit scary. Democracy is a fragile concept, and particularly at a time when AI is coming along and the government will have to play a strong role in saying, Okay, these jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall, and therefore, here's how we help those people. How do we keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a thing that bad people use and it messes up these job markets. That, I expect the 2028 presidential debate AI policies will be the most important thing. I was a little bit surprised in this election that wasn't discussed hardly at all.

Yeah, that's such a good point. I didn't actually think of that, but you're right, it didn't come up at all. Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, How do you prepare for something like that? It would need to be surrounded by the right people and having the parties.

Well, you've got to educate everyone. You can't count on the technologist to shape these things. Social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be and the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things that even if they're not at all factual, and AI heightens all of that. This is an era where We're getting the politicians to see the technology, including all this good stuff, personal tutors, medical care, even making the government more efficient. This is the most promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork, AIs actually are pretty darn good at reading and processing those kinds of things. We're on the precipice of these AI breakthroughs, the reliability and capabilities. It's an extension of what I worked on as a child, personal computers, then internet, then cell phones, and now AI. But because it's super intelligence, it's of a different character. It'll put us to the test on how we work together within the US and how countries work together.

Yeah. It's interesting because as you talk about social media there, I think Mark Zuckerberg and Joe Rogan were saying that they are taking away their fact checkers. And I believe X is doing something similar. What was your take on that?

This whole thing of how you balance free speech versus not discouraging people from using vaccines when that would be beneficial for them or even extreme stuff like Holocaust denial or some bad things there. I'm a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a clear prescription to how we achieve both the goals, free speech and yet reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. During the pandemic, the negativity about vaccines, some of which had me being some weird misbehaving actor, which was a lot of craziness, Clearly, over a million people died who should have benefited from the vaccine. And next time, whether it's an out of control AI or the next pandemic, the impact of not getting facts out could be much more dramatic. You could have a pathogen that was 10 times or 20 times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once Omicron comes along, the fatality rate is is actually reasonably modest and mostly elder people. So politics meets AI is where a lot of our fates will be determined even in the next 10 years.

And how do you see your role in that?

Well, hopefully, there's some things I really do understand about that, and whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my foundation work on education education and health using it. The place where you have the greatest shortage of teachers and doctors is in poor countries in Africa. So the fact that these things can give farmers advice and give a pregnant women advice and look at what your kid is eating and say, no, you need more protein in this diet. And it's essentially free. The way that computing was free that I saw when I was young, now we're getting into this even more radical thing of intelligence diligence will basically be free. That's wild stuff. So I hope both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons of a past, of where we've been able to shape things so far so that I think personal computing has largely been an empowering thing. I was reading this book, Nexus, where Harari says, then when the printing press comes along, it actually books about witches and how you find witches that are the best selling. So just thinking because we have new capabilities that will necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way, that's, sadly, a naive concept.

Yeah. I mean, you've raised such a good point there. Even this idea, I loved what you said that you said you wish your generation could have figured out how to not have these extreme polarizing conversations, but actually find this healthy middle ground, whether that be algorithms, whether that be through how we use technology. What is it that... Why do we keep doing that? It almost feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas, but then we always use it for almost the same thing or something that feels insignificant compared to what it could do. Where are we going wrong? Why can't we get that right?

Well, it's amazing how well humanity is done. The The violent death rate over hundreds of years have gone down a lot. More recently, we've gotten vaccines out to children and gotten the annual death rate from 10 million a year at the turn of the century down to about five million vaccines being the biggest part of that because we got them out to most of the world's children. So humanity for a being that grew up in these small hunter-gatherer groups, now we have big cities These complex technology, our ability to get along in some ways has been good. Nuclear weapons that when I was young, my greatest fear was, okay, there was going to be a nuclear war. I do worry the current generation doesn't have that exposure to it, the arms treaties and spending too much money on building those weapons. I do worry that we've lost track on that one, but at least we haven't used those. We've done pretty well so far. Will we this time? I think this is probably the hardest innovation because we do have human lamentations. Even I, when I see an outrageous article against somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click on it and have it tell me, Yeah, he's even stupider than you thought.

This is a mistake. We're all subject to that, and we do like to form into groups. But all of humanity, ideally, is a group where philanthropically and government generosity, we can think of ourselves as being part of that as opposed to our clan or race or nation.

Yeah. I think on a global level, it requires what you are saying. And on a personal level, it requires us to almost be able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, have self-awareness, allow for self-reflection, space for the things we don't have time for anymore. I was looking into something called the third space theory and how in the past you had your home, you had work, and then you had church or temple or community center. And how those three spaces, that third space was a place you could look back on home and work and say, I could treat my your wife a little bit better, or I could have spoken to my colleague a bit better. And that third space allowed that time and energy where it was all about reflecting on how you could improve. But today we've lost three spaces into two into one, where we work from home, live at home, and the screen is our third space. And so that lack of having a physical body or building that gives you permission to step back from your whole life, not play a role there, and actually purvey what's going on in your life. We've lost that.

Yeah, that's a shame. The decline of religion is a very strong trend. You'd hope there be a modern religion that takes whatever or put people off and yet preserves this golden rule and this, okay, at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other. If you expect government to figure out how to solve things, it's too bureaucratic. The local church-based groups, Oh, this person needs help. I have extra time, is way more effective. We expect too much from government in a way. I hope we can re-energize, perhaps through a type of religious modernization or maybe just a community thing that is maybe spiritual but not labeled as as religion, that local engagement where you see other people, that I think we need more of it.

Absolutely. Bill, I've got you for a couple more moments. There's a few things I wanted to ask you. One was, you talked about how in the book, how being the smartest person in the room and that status was something that you may be hid behind and your insecurities were hidden behind. I was wondering, is that something that you've been able to put down that guard and take that away as time has moved on? How were you able to do that?

Yeah, I mellowed a little bit to learn how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways. Microsoft, I had to get marketing salespeople at the foundation, people who go out in the field and do heroic work. And so my single view of, okay, math capacity is this great thing. I I've mellowed and been able to bring in different skillsets. But no, I started off being pretty bad at that.

What were those insecurities that you were hiding?

Well, you tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself. And so when I make a mistake in programming or math, I'm very tough on myself. And I'm like, you need to spend more time, you need to work harder. And it's a tough love, don't fool yourself thing. And so my early management style worked for people like me, but not as well for other people. And so year by year, I did grow with Microsoft. A lot of entrepreneurs don't stay as CEO, and you have to bring in someone else. I wanted to do that. And so by bringing in some other people, I got better at that. I would say moving over to the foundation was another level of how you bring in different mix of talent. And so, yeah, I'm still trying. I'll be better a year from now.

Well, I was most excited that you said there's still two more books coming after this one to talk about the different areas of your life. And I really enjoyed this one so much. I'm so excited for people to read it, to get to know you better, to get to know the people that have changed your life for the better and allow you to do all the incredible, phenomenal work you do today. And I honestly am so inspired by the work you do today, and I really hope that I can be involved in some small way. So I thank you deeply.

Well, thank you. It's been fantastic.

It means the world. Bill, we end every episode with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So, Bill Gates, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Finding what you really enjoy doing, and hopefully there's some job that It has that as opposed to what jobs pay well or other people push you to. If you're doing something you really enjoy, that's hard to beat.

And you found that early?

I was super lucky on that. Computers were there right when I needed them.

Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

People will tell you not to take risks, and it's very well intentioned. But there are contexts When you're young, people say, okay, it must have been scary to drop out. Not really. I mean, I could have gone back. There's no flesh wounds involved in failure. So failure is probably a better teacher and more of an okay thing. I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, emotional safety, in many cases, we've gone too far.

Yeah. But Did dropping out at that time feel like a big risk?

No, it didn't. No, not even. The first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids. And I was like, if I can't pay this guy's check, this is rude. He's got a real problem. And I'm implicitly promising him, I've got this thing figured out. So that scared me.

Yeah. There's a scene in the social network where you're on stage and Mark Zuckerberg is in the auditorium, and And then they leave and they say, the speaker just said, the next Bill Gates could be sitting in this room. And then Mark goes, that is Bill Gates. Is that true?

That is absolutely true. Mark and I have laughed about that a lot, that our experience at Harvard, dropping out of Harvard heard telling people that, hey, we saw something other people didn't see. Very similar.

Question number three, what would you say is the most important problem the smartest people on the planet should be solving right There's many candidates making sure we don't use nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest, which we're losing that.

But I would say shaping AI has, for me, risen to the top of that list. We need to do all those. We can't just skip any of those. But this one is going to be a very big deal in the next decade.

And what What would be your advice to the biggest business leaders in the world in regard to that?

Well, I don't think you can count on them. Their competitive framework is to go full speed. And so only government's in a position to say, wait a minute, slow down. For the good stuff, you want them to lower the price and get it done sooner. And so we can't, although, yes, they should be part of the dialog, and they're humans and citizens, too. But you can't count on them because the metric for them is to go full speed.

Question number four, what is your favorite mental health habit?

It's a very big deal for me to get time reading and thinking by myself, whether it's on a walk or going driving. When I was CEO of Microsoft, I took two full weeks, think weeks, one every six months, where I would just go off by myself and think, okay, is Microsoft soft on track? What are the trends? Towards the end, I'd write a memo, which actually was valuable as we navigated the twists and turns, like when the internet comes along or software is not reliable enough. I need that time to think, even though I love quick thinking, being in a meeting and spotting a mistake. Most of my good work has come from the slow thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up with some non-obvious ideas. Maybe it's a little bit my being on the spectrum, I need that refreshment. When I see my schedule with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll try and make sure the next week has a little bit less of that. But to maintain creativity, you have to have some calmness and be not behind. If you feel like you're behind, like you turn on your email like, Oh, I'm late.

That your creativity gets squeezed out one of the first things.

And does that think we need to be in nature? Are you away from everything? Are you simply thinking? Are you taking books? Are you journaling?

I'm taking books to read, but I'm also taking very long walks.

On your own?

And just thinking about things. I take a tablet of paper and write things down quite a bit. I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking phone calls. I'm not browsing the news. The news can wait. I'm off by myself 24 hours that whole time. Somebody can stick some food in. That's extreme. There's people like Harari who meditate an unbelievable amount. I almost envy him. I don't think I would go that far, but we should be more in his direction than we are.

Yeah, absolutely. What's the book you've gifted most, actually? I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader. You recommend so many great books. What's the book you've gifted to people close to you the most?

There's a Steven Pinker book called Better Angels of Our Nature that talks about, even though in the short run, we see how tough things are, if we zoom out a little bit and say, okay, 200 years ago, to be a woman, to be gay, 30% of children die. Lifespan is less than 50 years. That's not saying there's a guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen. But people are a little overwrought and saying, okay, this approach to government is failing. Maybe we should try something radical, like not being fully democratic. I'm like, Whoa, wait a minute here. Yes, we need to feel bad about the things we're not doing, but we also need to have a perspective. The system of scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our circle of care beyond our family, clan, nation, as we discover new things and we can share more resources. That really is working. It sounds naive to say that, but the books that really go through that, I find, in guide how I think about the world.

Absolutely. Fifth and final question. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Well, if you look at all these religious texts, I'd say the The thing they all eventually come back to is the golden rule, which is to treat people how you would like to be treated. Say that you're about to be born and you don't know if you're going to be born a woman or in Africa. This is a thing that Warren Buffet taught me. You get to construct the world and how fair it is, and then we will randomly pick and you will be born in some place in some way. I And I think the construct that would guide the world you'd want for that is very much going back to that golden rule, not, okay, let's win wars. Let's out-compet or have more money or resources than other people. And so it's one of the few universal truths that we should have that guide our behavior.

I love that, Bill. Thank you so much for your time on On Purpose today and genuinely so grateful for your time and energy. It was thrilling to talk to you. And I love getting an early copy of the book and being ahead of the world on it. So thank you so much.

Well, I've loved our conversation, so look forward to more. Thank you.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama, where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress. If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you. No wonder our kids are struggling.

We have a new technology, and we've just taken it in hook, lying, and sinker. We have to be mindful for our kids. They'll just be thumb through this stuff. Their mind's never sleeping.