Transcript of Episode Revisit- The Tragic Case of Molly Bish & Morbid Chats with Heather Bish

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash and I'm Alayna, and this is Morbid.

This is Morbid.

That felt like the old times when I would say it.

Yeah, it did.

Yeah, I don't know what it was, just a little, a little more simplistic than I usually do.

It's just something about today.

Yeah, well, it's nighttime and we don't usually record at night.

We don't. It's something spooky, something nostalgic about it.

Yeah, it's, it's like the first time that we like recorded.

And you know what, speaking of nostalgia, I just had to say, um, in case— I just wanted to let everybody know that we— there was like a— there's a few episodes in our back catalog that I'm like, you know, we always talk about how we were like underwater and our sound quality was terrible. You all know, you all loved it. I'm not gonna— don't worry, because people— I remember I mentioned it once and people were like, don't like take out any of the old episodes or like redo them because they like show your growth. Yeah, which is awesome. Like, I I love that. I love that people said that. That's really cool. And I'm not, I'm not gonna like remove all these episodes or anything, but we are gonna be like trying to remaster a few of them and make them sound a little better just so new people who come to the podcast aren't hearing that as their first gateway.

Just so new people want to stay.

Yeah, not everybody is as forgiving, you know? Like, so we just wanna like try to make it better. And there's a couple that like, I was listening to them and not only is the sound quality bad, but like, I was like, you know, I feel like I've read more about that case now and like I didn't include these details that I wish I did.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And it's just like, it's, I just want to do it better. So if you see things getting moved around in our back catalog or like, you know, updated at all, don't be like, oh my God, where did that episode go? It's coming back.

It's just, we're going to be like, it's being tweaked.

Yeah.

We're going to be tweaking some episodes here and there and we'll let you know.

Like, guess what? You didn't need to know about my vanilla chai at Salon, at the Salon. You didn't. I almost just said the exact Salon we're talking about.

Yeah. Episodes where I was listening back to them and I was like, yeah, we went on like too far of a tangent sometimes. I think it's just like for our own, like, it just doesn't represent what we want it to represent all the time. So, uh, I just want to let you guys know just in case you were like, where did that episode go? Or why is that episode suddenly slightly different?

Excuse me, ma'am.

Uh, but don't worry, once when we update episodes or, you know, remaster them, redo them, we're gonna let you know. So on like the whatever episode I do it the next week, I'll be like, hey, by the way guys, go check out that episode 'cause we redid it. Yeah, so you won't be in the dark, you'll know.

Love that.

But I just wanna let you know, so you're, you know, we're all in this together.

We are.

So I wanted you to know what's going on behind the scenes.

Well, and—

Just trying to make it a little more palatable for everybody in the back catalog there. Yeah.

Well, and because we're all in this together, let's talk about the fact that some of you are like, why the fuck did you refund my show?

Why did you just give me money?

What's happening? So basically what we're doing right now is that almost every single venue and like show that we had, we're still going to do them. But right now we are refunding you because we have no idea when it's going to be acceptable to gather in large crowds.

Yeah, and these places don't want to hold your money hostage while we try to figure out what dates are happening, you know, like when it's going to happen.

Yeah, and you know what, maybe we'll do different venues in those same places but find like, oh, maybe like a fun cemetery. Yeah, we're going to make it a little like are like, we're gonna be creative about it.

So if we were coming to your city and you had tickets, please don't worry. Like, we're not like, we're not coming. Like, sorry.

Bye.

That would have been fun. Bye. No, we're going to. We just, we don't want to, we don't want those venues like hanging on to your money while we try to figure out what dates this is going to happen to. Because that's not really fair.

No.

And also we, like Ash said, we're trying to like change up the venue a little in the same cities.

We want it to be a little more of like an experience.

Yes.

Yes. We have ideas. We've had a lot of time with COVID to like really talk about it and like really conceptualize some fun things.

The amount of Pinterest boards that I have.

Yeah.

And then, um, the only one that you're not going to, you're not gonna get refunded. No. The only one where you're not gonna see a refund is Boston because we still plan to do that show.

Yeah. Just the Wilbur is happening.

Not on that date, most likely.

Yes. Not this month.

In fact, when I say most likely, I mean at all.

Absolutely. Absolutely not.

Yeah, that's going to be rescheduled.

So that will be rescheduled. So just hang on to that because we will update you as soon as we know. The Wilbur's just like a little up in the air right now when this can all happen.

And we don't want like 1,200 of you to like gather and have us be the reason.

That's our thing. It's just, I don't— we really don't want to like encourage people to gather too soon.

No, it seems a little hypocritical.

We're getting to a place of like—

we're almost there.

Like we're getting to a place of vaccine and a place of herd immunity.

Yeah.

And we want to just let that ride out for a little while so that everybody can feel safe. Yes. Everybody can feel comfortable.

So that I don't have to hear a single one of you sneeze during my fucking set.

That's it.

That's all it is. I'm totally—

Is that Ash doesn't want to hear a sneeze or a cough during it.

No, no. I'm totally kidding.

It's because we care about you and, you know, we care about you selves. I don't want to get sick. We don't—

We care about your babies.

We don't want anybody getting sick. So, and we don't want to encourage it.

No.

Before it's okay. So we can't wait. Like, trust me.

Oh, I am craving it.

Can't wait.

Yeah.

But again, we just wanna be responsible. We wanna be fair to everybody. So if you see those refunds coming in, that's what that is. That's what that is. And look out cuz we'll let you know as soon as we're coming back.

Oh my God. That just scared the shit outta me.

Oh, it was a ladybug.

So it's on like, we have these little like, um, sound things so that we don't, we're not echoey and it's in front of me and all of a sudden I just see this creepy crawly going up the side. I'm like, what the fuck is that? And it's a ladybug.

That was just a ladybug. Yeah, it's just a lovely little ladybug.

Hi girl.

Hey girl.

Um, so I think that was all the business, right?

I think so. Yeah.

Yeah.

And like, even if there's more, like, too much time. Bye. So let's get into it. I had mentioned last week that, you know, we weren't going to do Venus Extravaganza right quite now because, yeah, not the right time. And then, so what I did was I went, um, back on the Patreon because it was the Venus Extravaganza was a Patreon pick and I still wanted the Patreon to feel like they got their full month's picks.

Yeah, for sure.

So I went on the original post where everybody was like picking their things and I was like, what cases were like super, super requested? And the two that were the most requested were the Molly Bish story.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, Dominique Dunne. So what I'm gonna do is, uh, the popular vote, I hate to even say that, was Molly Bish. And so obvi— I'm gonna do that today. And then next week I'm gonna do the Dominique Dunne story.

Woo.

So without further ado, Molly Ann Bish was born on August 2nd, 1983. Her parents are John Sr. and Maggie Bish.

Adorable names.

And Maggie is Maggie with an I. Oh. Her full name is Magdalene, I believe.

Oh, I love that.

Or Magdalena. I wrote Maggie for most of this. So yeah, she had two older siblings, Heather and John Jr. And the family was originally from Detroit, but Maggie and John decided that it just wasn't the best place for them to raise their young kids. And actually something that made a huge impact on their decision to move was the abduction of a young girl who lived close by. Wow. Yeah.

Wow.

Yep. So they moved to a quiet Massachusetts town called Warren. Have you ever been there?

Ever heard of it? Yeah, I have been to Warren.

It is literally like, it's like a different world. It's like Oklahoma.

I feel, yeah, it's so quaint.

Yeah, it's very quaint. It's like beautiful.

Yeah.

So John Sr. actually worked as a police officer and Maggie was able to stay at home with the kids until her youngest Molly started kindergarten. And Maggie said that there were two sides to Molly. She could be like really shy, or she could be super funny. And she compared her humor to like Lucy from I Love Lucy.

Oh, I love that.

She was like, that was Molly's kind of funny.

She's Lucille Ball. That's a great icon to be compared to humor-wise.

Yeah, huge compliment.

Good for her.

She sounded like she must have been hilarious.

Yeah, hot shit.

Now Molly was the kind of girl to include everybody. Her mom said that she never wanted anyone left out and that people were just naturally drawn to Molly. She had one of those like faces, personalities, energies that people wanted to be around her.

She did have one of those faces.

She is— every time you see a picture of her, you're like, oh, she's like drop dead. Like, she was beautiful and you just want to know her. Yeah, she just like, you know how like you can tell somebody's a nice person? Yeah, like there's no way you're mean.

Yeah, it just radiates.

Yeah, I don't have that face. Uh, so Molly was not only a kind, funny kid, she was also a talented athlete. She played softball, soccer, basketball.

Damn.

And on top of all of that, she was also an honor student. Wow. And she was an honor student that hoped to someday work with children. That was like what she wanted to do. So she was outgoing, she was popular among her friends in high school, she had a boyfriend that she had recently gone to prom with, and this was summer now and everybody was going to be heading into their senior year that fall. So in the meantime, that summer, Molly wanted to work as a lifeguard at a nearby pond, and her brother John had actually worked as a lifeguard at Cummins Pond 2, and he was the one who got her set up for working.

Yeah.

I think he had worked there for like the 3 years before she started working there.

Oh, wow.

So it was almost like, not like a family gig, but like, like her brother like passed down his job.

Yeah.

So he showed her how to set up for the day. He laughed remembering like teaching her how to look for snakes, which I thought was adorable. Oh my gosh.

Terrifying and adorable.

I know, I hate snakes. He showed her just like the ins and outs of the job. So Molly had been working for a week and she was enjoying it. And then on the morning of, uh, June 27th, 2000, she got bad news. Her mother, she was like getting ready for work and her mother had to tell her that one of her friends that she played soccer with was actually in the hospital in critical condition and she had been hit by a car while she was riding her bike. Oh yeah. It was like very serious. So Molly was obviously super upset, but it was too late to call into work and there were gonna be swim lessons that day and she didn't wanna miss them. She was like excited about them. So she made like a super responsible decision to go in for for her shift. Wow. Which at 16 years old, I feel like that was the really like mature decision.

It really was.

I think that says a lot about her.

Yeah, it would have been much easier to make the other decision for sure.

So Maggie drove Molly to the police station to pick up the two-way radio that the lifeguards would use. Uh, they would like use it to contact the police if there was an emergency.

Yeah.

And they also stopped to grab a couple of water bottles. When they got to the pond, Molly told her mom she loved her and ran up to her post to set up for the day. So by 10 AM, the swimmers who Molly was like looking forward to helping and looking after, they arrived at the pond, but there was no lifeguard on duty.

Hmm.

Yeah. So the parents of the swimmers were like, that's weird. And one of the moms took the post herself for the time being because somebody had to do it.

Yeah.

And she saw that there were flip-flops in the sand by the post and that the two-way radio was there, a first aid kit was there, and there was a backpack. And actually the first aid kit was open.

So it's very clear that there was a lifeguard there at one point.

It's very clear that Molly was there.

Yeah.

And had set up for the day. Like I said, it seemed like somebody had been there to set up and then just vanished.

I hate this case. This case is—

I'm already just like, I know, I'm literally wrapped in a blanket right now and I have chills. So Molly's boss was informed that she was nowhere to be found, so he contacted the police when she didn't show up. It's like, okay. I'm like, why didn't you also call her parents?

But, oh yeah, I didn't even think of that.

Yeah. So the police immediately assumed that Molly had ran off with friends, even though there was nothing about her character that like could have aided in that abrupt decision, that she would suddenly just abandon her job and run out with friends. She'd been working for a week. She'd never done that before.

Like, yeah, she just— it didn't come off like she was the— I mean, she's 16, I guess. I don't know if that's just like—

that's literally in my notes.

Of course she's very responsible, and she seems like a more responsible 16-year-old but they don't know her. She's still a 16-year-old, so they're probably just like—

and that's how they looked at— literally, I wrote like the stereotype of 16-year-old girls. They were like, she ran off. They knew— I think they knew that her friend had been in the hospital. They're like, maybe that's what happened. Yeah, I don't know. But that wasn't Molly. She wouldn't do that.

No.

So when Molly still hadn't turned up by 1 o'clock, 1 o'clock PM at this point, the police contacted her parents to let them know what was going on. So it's been 3 hours since Maggie's dropped her daughter off, and she has no idea that like they can't find her. 2 minutes after she left some— like, something happened, and it happened so quick. Yeah, because the first swimmers arrived like a little bit after 10, like a few minutes after 10.

Yeah, that's the part that really gets me about this.

Somebody—

how quickly this happened.

Somebody had— I, in my opinion, somebody had been watching her for a little while, knew the routine, knew the routine, knew what time she got there. And we'll see later on that there's like a point where like, um, they could have been hiding and like the Maggie wouldn't have seen them, and neither Molly.

Absolutely.

So we'll, we'll get into it. Yeah. So they contact her parents to let them know what's going on, but they still believe that she would turn up and had just gone off with her friends. And Maggie and all of her family are like, no. So Maggie called Molly's older sister Heather. Now Maggie's the mom. Just, I think the Ms get a little confusing.

Yeah.

Maggie calls Molly's older sister Heather to let her know what's going on. And Heather promptly heads over to help her mom search for Molly. They knew something wasn't right about this entire situation. And they were like, if nobody else is going to investigate, then like, fuck it, we will.

Yeah, of course.

So they started contacting Molly's friends. They went to her boyfriend's house. They checked to see if she had visited that friend in the hospital. Nope, nope, nope. She wasn't anywhere that they looked. Nobody had heard from her. Nobody said like they heard that she was gonna go here or there, anywhere. Yeah, like this wasn't a case of she just checked out. Now the police proposed that maybe she had drowned. Which they were like, her family was like, I know, like, first of all, it's a pond.

So like, yeah. And she's a lifeguard.

She's a lifeguard. And they were like, not that lifeguards can't drown, but it's like, of course they can. But they were like, no, she's a very strong swimmer. And it's not like there was weather that day or anything where the water, like the pond water would have gotten rough.

When would she have drowned? Well, that's the problem. She just arrived at her post.

Yeah.

It didn't really make any sense. I think that they just, You gotta think of anything at this point, right? You want an answer. You're not going to immediately be like, she was abducted, which you're gonna hope that's— maybe you should treat it like that, but I'm not a police officer.

I feel like you should just overreact. Yeah, always overreact.

Yeah, you know, but so her brother John even got in the water to search for his sister himself. He was diving all around trying to find any sign of Molly. Uh, the investigators actually made him come out so that they could bring in their boats and divers. They looked and looked and looked. Molly had not drowned. She was not anywhere in that water. And then Maggie remembered something that would haunt this case for like the next 20 years to come. A white car had been parked in the lot that, um, in the lot the day earlier, so the previous day.

Okay.

And the man sitting inside had really freaked Maggie out, so much so that she actually didn't leave Molly alone until the car left.

Huh.

Yeah, she said that she saw a man sitting in a white parked car smoking a cigarette, and she saw him staring— and actually most of the articles that I read said glaring— at Molly.

What the fuck?

Yeah, and she said there was immediately this horrible feeling in her gut while she stared back at the man like a self-proclaimed mama bear, like, like, try this with my daughter, like. So he stared right back at her and then finally drove away.

Oh, that would— I'd be way too horrified by that.

But I think she was like, well, John worked here for like 3 years, and like, I mean, you're not gonna think this person is like— no—

gonna come back. Of course that's not your immediate— like, hindsight right now, I'm like, oh, right? But it's like, in the moment, you're gonna be like, he's gone, right?

He's gone.

That was weird. That was weird.

Yeah. And actually, the morning that Molly went missing, Maggie was relieved because when they got there, there was a sand delivery truck So she was like, okay, Molly— she was like, I wasn't gonna leave her alone after that happened that day.

But now I see that there's— yeah, there's more, there's workers here, there's other people.

And she actually— Molly had arrived a little bit late that day, like I think she was supposed to be there before 10. So she was like, they're— the swimmers are going to be here any minute. Yeah, she's not alone.

Yeah.

And so the day before, she had actually walked Molly to her post and hung out for a while until she was sure that the creepy man had driven off. And she was able to give all the details of the man's features to a sketch artist, and a composite sketch was made showing an older man with a large mustache, dark eyes, and salt and pepper hair holding a cigarette.

Ew. Yeah, I'm just picturing it and I'm like, yeah.

So the first one was done and she was like, cool. But they actually had a second, um, sketch artist come in named— I believe it's Gene Boylan. And we'll post that one because that is like the most well-known in the case.

Like if you're Googling it right now, I was gonna say, I know this one.

Yeah, that's the one by I believe it's Gene. Am I—

it's so horrifying.

He's terrifying.

I hate it. Yeah.

So by this point, the police, the Warren police, are realizing that they have a missing person's case on their hands, and they decide to bring in the state police because Warren didn't— Warren's like we said in the beginning, a quaint little quiet town. Like, nothing like this happens here.

Exact. And that's the other reason why I'm sure it wasn't the first thing that popped in her head that this guy is going to like come back and do something.

It's like this This is a quiet, it's a quiet town where nothing happens.

It doesn't happen a lot here. That is a thing. Right.

But I mean, I was like really happy to see that the Warren Police were like, you know what, we don't have expertise in this area. Let's bring in the state police. 'Cause I feel like we have talked about so many cases where they're like, nope, we can handle it.

When the egos get into the, in the way. It's so nice when, 'cause we've had a few that have done this, which it's like, thank goodness.

Yeah.

Because it's like when they let the egos go and they're like, we need some help. We can't handle this. Right.

Yes, like, not to say that there weren't mistakes made during the investigation, for sure, definitely were, but, you know, but at least they handed it— they, you know, gotta give credit where credit's due, I guess.

Exactly.

So the first night came and went, obviously without Molly's return. Molly's father, John Bish, said, quote, it's hard for me to describe that sinking, hollow feeling you have as divers are looking for your daughter, as dogs are combing through the woods, and police officers are searching and interviewing people. And I almost immediately began to think that something really horrible had happened.

I never ever can put myself in that state of mind. No, I can't. And every time I hear it, I'm like, I don't— I just want to like hug these people.

I know. Well, this like makes me actually want to hug you, and we're not even huggers, because I like almost started crying when I read this.

Oh God.

Uh, Molly's sister Heather remembered how surreal that first night was, and she said that she kept going outside just like thinking maybe and hoping that her sister's kidnapper was just gonna like drop her off. Oh, because you think like, it's like when you've done something and you're like, crap, why did I do that? Can I rewind? Like, you know that feeling?

Yes.

But in, in like this case, she's like, maybe this will happen, like in a perfect world.

Yeah, maybe it'll just happen, right?

And Heather and her sister had started to become like, because Heather was a little bit older, and so they were starting to get closer because now Molly was getting older, and they were kind of, Heather said, like having, establishing a more like adult sister relationship.

Yeah, it's always fun when that happens actually, because that happened with like you know, with us. Yeah. And then it also happened with like me and my brother, like 8 years apart.

Yeah.

And when we got to that like point where you're like suddenly at this good place where like you get each other's humor now and you're like cool and like you can hang out because the older person is like, oh, you're like a real person. Oh, I can chill with you now. Like, it's— I'm not just making fun of you all the time. Like, I can actually hang out with you.

Yeah. I remember a little tag along.

Yeah.

Like, I remember that point with JP and I was I know, that is the best. Yeah, I remember that point, like, even with my little sister.

Yeah, yeah, it happens in every sibling relationship.

It does. So the next day there was a massive search. There were helicopters, search dogs, tons of people heading out promptly at 6 AM to find Molly. Businesses printed out missing persons flyers, neighbors joined in on the search, people tied yellow ribbons throughout the neighborhood.

I remember that.

And oh my God, this broke my heart. I saw an interview with Maggie or it might have been a quote where she said like the yellow ribbons floating throughout the air, like later on they, they discover some remains and she was like, it was almost like Molly's hair like flowing in the wind. Oh yeah. And she was like, it was like she was there before we knew that she wasn't there.

Oh, that just gave me like full chills.

It gave me— I don't know why it reminded me of The Lovely Bones, but it did.

No, it does. Yeah, 100% it does.

Yeah, yeah. Cuz you're seeing like the family's grieving. Oh yeah, this case really does.

Cuz I remember when this was all going on, it the family, you were just like, your heart shattered.

And for them, we're from Massachusetts, so there's that other, like, always, you're my, like, you're my family.

Yeah, you're my Massachusetts family. Yeah, it's like, I feel like, I, I feel so empathetic.

This family actually reminds me so much of our family, just like based on like things that I've seen, and I'm like, ah, yeah, it's just, oh, it's horrible. So yeah, but nothing turned up. So this, uh, excuse me, the scene back at the beach was essentially demolished because Number one, nobody thought that— like, it was— it took too long to become a crime scene in the first place because they were like, oh, she ran away. And even before anybody knew anything, there's already like swimmers that are coming for the day, and the day is beginning. The mom set up at the lifeguard post because she didn't know what was going on.

Of course not.

So, you know, it was just demolished, so they tried to get what they could get. But the other thing is, so compromised, it's a freaking beach, there's sand everywhere. Like, what are you gonna get, really?

Oh yeah, I mean, outdoor crime scenes, forget about it anyways, it's always harder. But then you add like next to the water, right? With, you know, you're next to the water, it's windier, right? There's moisture around, like it's just—

it's a nightmare. But something that really bothered the investigators working of like what they had of a scene was that the first aid kit was open. Like I said, yeah, why was it open? Like it was just some like a little detail that will become much bigger.

Yeah, when you said it at first, I was like, that's strange.

It's just a little weird.

Yeah.

Well, and what they wondered was maybe somebody approached Molly and gained her trust by like leading her to believe that they were injured in some way, like Ted Bundy. Oh, you have a Band-Aid, or do you have this? And got her to like grab something, hop down from her post and help them, and then they probably just scooped her up.

And that seems so likely. It absolutely does, because it's like a Ted Bundy thing. They prey on somebody who will help them, right? And I mean, she's a lifeguard, like, and she's like, and she's like, that's my job.

And she's a sweet girl, so yeah, she's a kind person.

Of course she's gonna help if she has a first aid kit, right? And it's a perfect way because I always thought that too was like the lifeguard post. You're like, oh, well, you're high in the air. That's like a good place to be, I guess, if you're being attacked because it's like they have to get you down. Right. But to get her down, that's a perfect way to do it.

Exactly.

Because they knew it's much harder to get them down.

Right.

So that's— they preyed on it even worse.

They preyed on her kindness.

Yeah.

Now, right off the bat, so they're thinking that's weird, but obviously they have to clear the people that they know exist.

Of course.

So her boss and her boyfriend were the first people looked into as like people of interest. But they both had either alibis or passed their polygraph test. So they were quickly like, no, it wasn't them. Now with the news of the lurking man in the car, there was a roadblock set up and a tip line established. So people were obviously calling in to say all kinds of things. Obviously we have like the people that just want to call because they're bored on a Tuesday and they're like, horrible, I saw Molly in like Wisconsin, or I saw her here. Like they were just saying like all parts of the country.

I hate that people do that, acting like she was a runaway.

It's like like, don't get a life, just don't do it, get a hobby, seriously, like a different hobby.

Like, can you for one second but like understand that this girl has a family, right? Like, you're destroying every time you do that.

Like, and here's the deal, she could have still been alive while you're calling in that tip that she's halfway across the country or something like that, and then they're looking into that and that's precious time wasted. Exactly. Where they could have potentially rescued her.

Exactly.

I don't know what happened.

That's, that's the thing, it always derails the investigation because it sends sometimes on a wild goose chase, right? And it's like, and while they're looking into this, some shit is going down over here.

Exactly.

It's just so— it's—

I just don't understand, like, what you gain from that.

I don't get people's mentality that do that shit.

No, it's like, I'm really getting—

that's some shady shit.

And I'm— I just can't imagine, like, sorting through the tips and being, like, being the one to determine what we're gonna go after and what we're not. Yeah, that must be— that's, like, a really hard job, I assume.

Yeah.

So yeah, some people are saying she's halfway across the country, but other people reported that they had seen that white car at the cemetery a few days prior with a man in it who looked similar to the sketch. And then some people say that he was near the pond just a couple minutes before Maggie and Molly arrived. Oh yeah. And there was actually a trail, um, on the beach leading to that cemetery. I think it was like, um, one article I read said it was like a fork in the beach and like one side of it led to that cemetery.

And he's a— the sketch is like very— like, you would know. Yeah, you would know that guy.

He has a very— he honestly looks like Matilda's dad. He kind of does, like a little bit.

Like Danny DeVito.

Like Danny DeVito. I love your work. He has a very distinct mustache. He has very distinct eyes.

Very distinct. The eyes really Yeah, and like, thing that are like— even like the forehead wrinkles and the way his hair is parted, like very specific nose shape. I don't— if you saw him, you'd be like, yeah, that is him. Yeah, like, I definitely, definitely saw that guy. It's not just a guy with a mustache, it's a very specific guy. It is.

And we'll post it.

Yeah.

And then that trail, actually, police ended up investigating it, but they came up with nothing.

Oh really?

There's nothing there.

Again, it's outside. So it's so hard.

Well, that's the thing.

It's so easy to lose evidence.

I mean, the only thing that I guess that like I— they could have gotten was like tire tracks, but maybe there just weren't any. Yeah, exactly. And who's to say that he was in the cemetery? That's again just a tip.

Sorry, I'm just throwing things. I was gonna say I just slammed into my microphone.

I'm sorry, we talk with our hands.

I do.

So yeah, like things were being investigated, nothing's turning up. They are, um like sex offenders in the area were interviewed. They were polygraphed. Actually, a few of them did not pass their polygraph tests.

Huh.

But there wasn't really— there was like a couple people that didn't, and there was nothing to hold them on really. And no, I mean, they don't have a shred of evidence, so what are they gonna do?

Yeah, what are you gonna do?

You can't do much with just a polygraph.

Yeah, you can't be like, I think you lied.

Yeah. And also, it's weird that like multiple of them lied.

Like, yeah, strange. I think maybe it's just like nerves. Yes, that could happen.

I feel like I could never pass one of those. I think I would just be like, yeah.

And if you're coming in as a sex offender already, you're probably already nervous.

Nervous, which you should be. Don't sex offend.

Don't do it.

So the next big tip would not come until May of 2003, 3 years after Molly Bish went missing. Wow. Yeah, a hunter from the area had seen a blue bathing suit in the woods in a nearby town called Palmer, which I've actually literally never—

oh yeah, I've heard of it.

Oh, all right, it's Massachusetts. Um, when police went to investigate, they did find a piece from what they determined to be Molly's bathing suit. Not only did her father remember buying that bathing suit with his daughter, it was like this very specific blue and white color. They said like he was like, I know that was it. But DNA testing confirmed that it was Molly's.

Oh, that's horrific.

Now once the bathing suit was found, there was another massive search, and actually it was the biggest search in Massachusetts state history. Oh yeah, yeah.

Uh, this was everywhere. Absolutely. Every, I was in high school when this happened.

It was everywhere. Yeah. I don't remember it because I think I was literally 5 years old. I was pretty young.

You were, you were really, I mean, in 2003 you were what, like 8 years old?

Yeah. I was like, I'm not, in 2004 I was 8.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter.

But you were young.

But I don't remember this at all cuz I was so little. And I think probably if it was on the news, somebody was like, let's not have that on.

Let's just turn that off.

All this 5-year-old's in here.

Yeah.

But yeah, so the huge, huge, huge search, massive search, biggest in US, in US, in Massachusetts history. And then the first week of June, there were multiple grim discoveries. Partial remains were found in Palmer in an area called Whiskey Hill. A lock of hair and a tongue ring were also found, all confirmed to be Molly's. Yeah. And I just thought this was like a really cute story because like, I think it's like, I think she's so badass for like convincing her parents to get a tongue ring.

I know. I was going to say what a badass.

Right? Remember taking Molly to get her tongue pierced the previous spring, and he was like, the only, like, reason that I did it is that she promised she, quote, wouldn't get any tattoos or any other piercings until she was 45 at least. And I just thought that was like a cute, like, story.

Well, and she seems like she was such a, like, a good kid. Yeah. And like pretty responsible. They were like, was it rebellious?

What you want to do?

And if, if your kid is that good and they're like, can I just get my tongue pierced? Like, it's permanent.

No, you know, like, especially in 2000s, like, yeah, I remember even in, like, when I was in high school, people are still getting their tongues pierced.

Oh yeah.

But like, and I feel like back then it was like such a thing.

It was a huge thing then.

Yeah. So I thought that was just like a cute story, like father-daughter.

Yeah, they just seemed like they were like— and honestly, the bond between them was something like really special, and it's sad.

Yeah, her parents just seem so cool. Like, they seem like really just like down-to-earth, sweet people. Her mom, and like I said in the beginning, her mom was saying how Molly had like an I Love Lucy sense of humor. And her mom, in the interviews, she has like this smile, and obviously it's like she's smiling through a lot of pain, but you can tell that she's like kind of goofy and silly too.

Yeah, like she just gives that vibe off.

They just seem like really fucking awesome people.

Yeah, it really sucks when this shit happens because it's always to these kind of people.

Exactly. You know, I hate it so much. Now, only 26 of the 200 6 bones that make up the human body were found. Wow. 26. Wow. Maggie and John actually had to wait to collect their daughter's remains and wait to hold a funeral service so that everything could be analyzed. And then they were advised against cremating Molly's remains in case like any new testing or anything like that came about.

Yeah, I can understand that.

So Molly's remains were buried along with her prom dress and a ton of letters written by friends and family.

Wow.

And like, with the prom dress, it's like, oh, because you forget she literally just went to prom. She was fucking 16.

Like, what? Oh, and this is really just gonna drive the point home, like, how horrific this case was and how much this poor family suffered. Molly was buried on what would have been her 20th birthday.

Wow.

August 2nd, 2003. Like, it's just horrific. So let's get into, like, who the heck did this now?

Who's the fuck did this, right?

I was— so there's— we're gonna get into suspects, and I'm like reluctant to even say suspects because so far in the past 20 years that this case has been ongoing and open and everything, no arrests have ever been made, which is crazy. That's— it's been, I mean, 21 years now.

I know, and it feels like 2003, you're like, oh yeah, that was a few years ago.

Yeah, in 2000 when she disappeared.

Yeah.

But there have been a lot of different persons of interest along the Now, the first person was named in February of 2008. This is a man named Rodney Stegner, I believe. So I say it, um, he was arrested in Florida for the murder of his girlfriend Crystal Morrison. He stabbed her 39 times and nearly decapitated her.

Jesus.

So that just goes to show you what kind of guy we're dealing with. Uh, Crystal's sister Bonnie actually came forward to give information that she thought might be helpful in the Molly Bish investigation. Wow. No, she said that she and her sister hadn't spoken for like almost 20 years, and then out of the blue, Bonnie got a call from Crystal. And Crystal told Bonnie that she was sure that she was going to be murdered by her boyfriend Rodney that night. And the entire— it's, first of all, the conversation starts off like that, and then the rest of the conversation is just like very bizarre. It was almost like she was speaking— Crystal was speaking to Bonnie in some kind of like code.

Wow. And she— you don't talk to her for 20 years, and that's the first time she calls? She's like, I'm fairly certain I'm gonna be murdered.

Yeah, I mean, like, what the fuck, right? So she also— Crystal also told her sister that she needed the phone numbers for the FBI and the Massachusetts State Police. Now remember, they're, they're living in Florida, and she was like, I don't need Florida police, I need Massachusetts State Police. And she wanted both parties to come and talk to her and Rodney about murders. Murders.

Oh, that's weird.

Yep. Now it's going to get weirder because Crystal actually commented a couple of times and seemed to be making a point about asking Bonnie about her bird. Like I guess Bonnie had this bird that was like squawking in the background and Crystal like kept commenting on it. There was multiple phone calls and she's like one day Bonnie told her the bird's name because she asked and she was like, oh, okay. And then the next night she asked the bird's name again and she's like, how did she already like the article I read? She was like, how did she already forget? We just talked about this.

Yeah.

And Bonnie reminded Crystal that that bird's name was Molly. And then the phone went silent, and Bonnie realized that there was a reason why Crystal was making a point to mention the bird.

What?

And I, like, I guess she was like, it's Molly. And then there was silence, and then Bonnie was like, oh my God. And Crystal was like, yup. Like, oh my God. Yeah.

Did Rodney look like the sketch?

Oh, okay, we'll get into that.

Oh my God, I'm stressed now.

Rodney, believe it or not— so remember, they're in Florida, but believe it or not, he had actually lived in Southbridge, Massachusetts, which is only about 15 miles away from, uh, Warren, which would be like a 25-minute drive.

Yeah, I Googled it. Nothing.

Uh, he was crazy that I don't—

I don't remember hearing about this. Really? This is nuts. Really? This is like actually new to me.

So this is in 2008.

Wow.

I think there was just like probably so much about this case.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, he was an experienced hunter and fisherman with a known background of violence against women, obviously. Um, and that was exactly who the authorities were looking at at that time. They said it's probably somebody just like that between the ages of 18 and 50. Yeah, we can't narrow like the ages down more than that, but they're a hunter, they're a fisherman, they know the area. Yeah, for sure, definitely violent. Now Rodney was quote familiar with Commons Pond and Whiskey Hill. Uh, and if that's not enough for you, this guy lived, quote, 3/10 of a mile away from the YMCA in Southbridge where Molly got her lifeguard certification. Shut up now.

Shut the front door.

Shut the front door.

Shut it.

Molly's dad worked part-time at a hospital in Southbridge, so he would bring Molly to her classes and pick her up when they were done. But there were some days where she got out early, or like he had to stay late, so she would hang out around the area. And there was a local coffee shop that she would usually hang out at until like her dad would come get her. Now, one of the private investigators who worked for the Bish family, his name is, um, Tom Shamsack, I believe is how you say it. He said, quote, it's very significant because it's a possible explanation of where Rodney Stegner may have first encountered Molly Bish. This is not a heavily populated area. It's quite possible that the two of them met there. She may have been chatted up. He may have extradited information from her, namely that she was going to be employed at Commons Pond.

This.

Yeah, yup, like this.

There's so many pieces that fit here.

Oh, absolutely. So, and Tom felt that way too, the private investigator. So he actually went to visit Rodney in prison because remember, he's in prison for literally murdering, murdering his girlfriend. He went to go speak with him and he showed Rodney a picture of Molly, and he said that Rodney wouldn't even look at the picture, like glanced at it and pushed it back across crossed the table, like didn't want to look at it.

I feel like Rodney did it.

Mm-hmm.

I, I'm like shocked right now.

So you're gonna be even more shocked now. Going back to Crystal's sister Bonnie, she was the one who had to go into the home where her sister was murdered to gather all of her sister's belongings. And it took a little while. I think, um, Bonnie was experiencing like some health issues, but so it took a little while. But when she got there, she found Rodney's wallet with a copy of his his firearms license, and she said, quote, when I first saw the FID, I said to myself, oh my God, this guy could have sat there and posed for that sketch. What? So, and I'll post the picture of his firearms license, which is from Massachusetts. It is essentially identical. Like, when she says that he could have sat and posed for it, that it's not an exaggeration at all.

I need— I'm like, okay, stop it.

Like, right? Stop it. It's insane. Now, Bonnie also found— and this is so creepy that we like recently covered a case where something similar happened— Bonnie also found a bag of hair accessories like clips and barrettes that she was like, these definitely did not belong to Molly. She like, she was like, these belong to a child. Like, and there was like a whole thing of them, a bag of them. What? In the home? Yes. And then here, here's one more thing on Rodney.

I hate this.

His, uh, his brother Randy owned a white Chrysler, and both of them moved to Florida together pretty shortly after Molly disappeared.

Okay, hello. Oh my God.

So because we talked about Rodney, we also have to talk about his brother Randy, the white, the white Chrysler-owning brother. Yeah, he was actually connected to a missing person's case himself.

Oh, was he?

Do you know about the Holly, um, Perron— Perron case?

That sounds very familiar.

I literally looked up how to say it and I wrote it phonetically. Perron.

Perron. That sounds very familiar.

So Holly was a 10-year-old little girl and she went missing from Sturbridge, Massachusetts in 1993. Um, she had been, I believe, vacationing with her grandmother, and she and her little brother Zach took like a short walk to just a neighbor's house. They were checking out like some new puppies that the neighbor had. But somewhere along the way they got separated and Zach came back without her. And when the adults and everyone went back to look for her, all that was left of her was a shoe by the side of the road.

Oh my God.

And this little girl must have been like absolutely like super, super smart because she had just gone to a camp and they talked about like what you should do if you're like being abducted or something like that.

Yeah.

And they said like leave something behind. So her family thinks that she like probably kicked off that shoe as to leave behind a sign at 10 years old.

Ripped my heart out of my chest.

Yeah. Now again, this is really horrible. 3 weeks later, Holly's body was found in the woods of Brimfield, Massachusetts, right off of Five Bridge Road.

Oh, now I've been to Brimfield for the antique fair.

You know who else—

a huge antique fair.

You know who else had been to Brimfield? Also, that's a great antique fair.

It is, but that just like bums me out.

Randy had been in that area.

Oh, I'm shocked.

And actually, he was, um, living in those same woods in a tent where her body was discovered.

Stop it.

Yeah, coincidence, I think not.

No, this is too much.

Now, people who hunted with both brothers later said to the authorities that they were pretty close to Five Bridge Road when they were hunting, like, and they had like seen it before. The brothers had like pointed it out to them and been like, oh, like, there's that over there. Now, Holly's little brother had flashbacks later on of like images of this man that he thought he saw. In 2005, these flashbacks started happening. And he was able to talk to a sketch artist, and the man that he described looks a lot like Randy. Oh, and he had never seen Randy before, like he'd never seen a picture of him or anything. And then in 2011, DNA from Holly's crime scene was actually able to connect to a man named David Pouliot, I think is how you say it. And he— that DNA connected him to the scene. So like he was at this— at the crime scene but he wasn't named a suspect, and he passed away in 2003.

Huh.

Yeah. Now, um, I didn't look too deep into it because this is mostly about Molly, and maybe we'll cover Holly's disappearance at another point in time, but I'm pretty certain her case is still open. And there was actually somebody's body was exhumed that was— that they thought was like in connection with the case. Yeah.

Oh, that's horrific.

So it's—

I can't even—

it's wild and so bad. The connections between Molly and Holly's case are like very eerie, and that's to say the least. And it's not only the suspects involved, because they were both 10 years old in 1993, the year that Holly went missing. And Molly actually wrote Holly's family a letter because she was so touched by the case.

Stop.

And she told them that she hoped that they would find Holly soon.

Oh my God.

So literally The—

this is so strange.

It's— I don't even know what to say about that. It's so—

I don't even—

nuts.

Wow.

Yeah. And I do feel like it's worth mentioning that these two girls had similar features, like blonde hair, they did blue eyes. Their abductions were sort of similar, both having been in like pretty secluded areas where there was not like a quote-unquote adult around.

Yep.

Weird.

That is very weird.

Yes. But Rodney and Randy were not the only people of interest. There was another man named as a suspect by another private investigator on Molly's case, and this was Dan Malley. This man named as a suspect, uh, in— by Dan Malley was Gerald, uh, Battisone. Gerald is a disgusting, like, monster, a pedophile, just the lowest of the low.

Ew.

Yeah, he's horrible, and he had some shocking connections not only to Molly's case but Holly's as well, both cases. Now, he was named a suspect by the PI in 2011 when he was already in prison for raping a teenage girl in the '90s.

Disgusting.

Yeah, and the girl who he raped was the daughter of a woman that he had been dating. Oh yeah, this woman that he raped, this young girl, said that he— she— excuse me, he had assaulted her, or sexually assaulted her, over 100 times.

Oh my God.

Yes, and it seems that he was like quite literally obsessed with her. He told her— there was like multiple police reports regarding this case. He told her that he loved her in front of the police who were called when he broke a restraining order just to go see her.

What?

So it's not unlikely to think that Gerald may have been stalking this young girl. And here's what's weird about that. When Molly Bish went missing in 2000, the rape victim was actually living on Commons— Commons Pond Road.

Stop. So he could have just been there. Yeah, doing what he was doing. Yeah, it happened to find—

and happened to find Molly and like let— I mean, I don't even want to.

And also, I just looked up a photo of him.

He looks like those eyes.

Yeah, those eyes, right? Those eyes. That's the same fucking eyes from that.

But the scariest thing is, I mean, Rodney looks like him too. Like, it's, it's—

but I'm gonna be honest, Gerald looks more like him. Those eyes, I agree with you, those are very specific in that sketch. Yeah, he looks like that guy.

He absolutely does.

Slap a mustache on him and he's him.

Well, he has a mustache. Well, in the photo I saw, he didn't, but yeah, there's a reason for that.

Get the fuck— I can't. This case is stressing me out.

Yeah, so I said he also had connections to Holly's case. Um, the woman that he'd been dating, the victim's mother, was a real estate agent who had a home listed right near Holly's grandmother's house. And like the woman, uh, the mother of the victim, her name and picture and everything was on that sign. So it was— I don't know if it was like some kind of like revenge, like doing it in an area where the mother was because he was upset with her. I don't know, but weird that, yeah, those two cases are connected to that man as well.

Very strange. Yes, very strange.

And also the day that Molly went missing, Gerald was working on his wife at the time, her car. Which was a white sedan.

Okay.

And I mean, come on, he told her that he took it for a spin out in Warren where Molly went missing.

Yeah.

And his wife said that was weird because, uh, he didn't have a license at the time, and that once the news of Molly's disappearance broke, he shaved his mustache and stopped going places, like stayed at home most of the time.

I, I truly— when I looked at that photo of Gerald, I was like, that's the guy.

Oh, it's just those eyes. Yeah, those beady little fucking eyes.

Specific. They are so specific in both of those sketches. That is him. Yeah, it's, it's, it's compelling now, but then it's like Rodney was very compelling too.

I know, a lot of it's very compelling.

Those eyes, man. I can't get past it.

The eyes don't lie.

They don't.

The windows to the soul.

Yes. Yeah, there you go.

Well, Gerald also loved— he liked true crime. He loved to watch court TV, and he would talk about true crime a lot. He'd talk about the cases. He would watch some cases over and over again. He also would apparently like cut out like brutal newspaper clippings and just leave them around the house.

Fun.

And be like, this is how I'm gonna kill you, like to his wife.

So quirky.

Yeah, super quirky. Super quirky. Um, but for some reason, when his wife brought up the Molly Bish case to him, he didn't want to talk about it at all. And he told her, quote, sometimes there's just no evidence.

Yeah, I, I literally— come on.

And by the way, Gerald had been known, and it is cited in police reports, he had been known to impersonate a police officer. So like we said, like the first aid kit was open, sure, maybe that meant something. Maybe it didn't. Or I mean, maybe she thought she was helping a police officer.

100%.

So maybe that's how he got Molly to trust him, and he lured her away when she tried to help him.

Gerald looks good for this, man.

Mm-hmm.

Do we know if he was a smoker?

I don't know.

I was gonna say it's probably not.

Oh wait, no, no, that's a lie. I do know actually. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Um, his wife— because I, I didn't find this anywhere. I saw it in one article, so I'm not sure if this is the absolute truth. But I guess Maggie like made it a point to, when she was doing the composite sketch, to like say how the guy was holding the cigarette or like he's holding it a certain way in the picture.

Yeah.

I didn't think it was like any specific way. Like I feel like that's how most people hold it. But his wife said that there was like a certain way that he would hold his cigarette and she said it used to like piss her off. Really? And she noticed that the man in the sketch is like holding it similarly or Maggie had said that he was. Because, you know, he was a smoker.

He's holding it between his two fingers, like, very, like— but his fingers are very, like, rigid. Yeah, like pointed up, like almost like somebody would be, like, parodying someone, like, smoking, like, "Mm-hmm, yeah, like I'm smoking a cigarette." Yeah, it just looks like you would be making fun of someone smoking a cigarette. Yeah, I'm so cool. Because most people, like, hold it a little sideways, or they'll maybe hold it, like, between their fingers, just, like, very casually. But this—

he looks very rigid, like, to a point.

Yeah. It is a very specific way to hold your cigarette.

So I mean, there you have it.

I'm so—

I'm—

I—

Gerald.

So there's that. And then it is also said that he used to buy drugs in Whiskey Hill where Molly's remains were found. So he knew that area well too. And then the smoking gun, Elena. This is really gonna send you all the way home. He attempted suicide when news broke that he was probably connected to Molly and Holly's case. He tried to slit his own throat, but it didn't work. He was taken to a hospital and treated.

He did it.

However, like, he did it. He died in prison in 2014 without confessing to having a part in either case. Damn it. But he is a pretty strong suspect.

He, he, to me, yeah, feels like rock solid. He feels pretty solid, and killing me that he's— oh, that kills me. That kills me.

I know.

I remember hearing like bits and pieces of him. Yeah. But I don't remember like following this like as closely as I thought I would have, but I didn't. See, now I'm like, what?

The thing is like, obviously I think in like, uh, Rodney and Randy's cases, like there's very like creepy stuff. And like, honestly, there's more creepy stuff about Randy in regards to Holly's case than there is Rodney in regards to to Molly's case.

Yeah, for sure.

But the thing about Gerald is that there's like a lot of weird shit. Like, first of all, like, why would you try to commit suicide if you had nothing to do?

Exactly.

Why would you shave your mustache when you— like, obviously that composite sketch went out pretty quickly.

You put a mustache on that dude, it is an exact—

and he had a mustache. He literally shaved it. Exact. And like, just all the connections to that.

He was working on the white Chrysler that wasn't even his that day, and then he took it for a spin in fucking Warren.

And that he's like connected to it because he already is in prison for raping a girl.

He smokes, and he smokes weird, and that Molly's mom was saying like it was a very specific way he held a cigarette, right?

Which again, I'm not sure if she said that, but I did see it in one source.

Like, there's so many things on top of so many things.

And the fact that the woman, or the young girl that he raped, was living on the same road as the pond, and that he was like stalking, like obsessed with that girl. Seemed like he was.

Yeah, it seems like if you're around the area Yeah, you happen to come around Molly and you're probably like angry and annoyed. He's probably angry.

He's a predator and a disgusting—

exactly, he's a monster.

Yeah, go and read more about him because there's more. He is just— he like used to make his wife wear like children's underwear.

Oh my God, get the fuck out.

When I said he's a disgusting monster, I didn't want to like say that.

He is like— but oh, whatever is happening, wherever he is, I hope it like nothing we can imagine. No.

Is it Stanzi on TikTok who does— like, she like pretends to be the devil in hell? I hope that she is like his, his hell, his version of hell.

I love Stanzi.

She's the best.

She really is. I think it— isn't it Stanzi Potenza? I think it is. I think that's what it is on TikTok. She's hilarious. Go follow her if you haven't.

Side note, she is great. But so yeah, back to this. No, in 2013, construction started close by to where Molly's remains were found, and the construction was for a racetrack in the area that was going to be used for, um, like, quote, driver education, motor vehicle testing, demonstration, and competition. So just a bunch of shit. Um, and the Bish family was actually hopeful that some evidence might be discovered during the construction.

Yeah, absolutely. And Maggie's gonna be digging around everywhere, right?

Exactly. And it's a huge area, and it's right where her remains were found. It's like right there. And Maggie said, quote, they— and I like, I'm so happy that it was like dealt with properly. She said they were very, very conscientious and took it very seriously about what they could come across.

Good.

They also said that they'd be very happy and very willing to put up a memorial for Molly. Oh, I love that. Okay, so there is a memorial for Molly. It's like this big yellow sign. I, I don't know if it's like by her house or if it's the memorial that these people put up. I tried to find to figure out where exactly it is, but I can only see a picture of it, like not where it is.

Oh really?

Yeah, we'll have to find out.

Yeah.

Um, but I was happy that they like—

they're—

yeah, they were conscious.

Seriously.

Exactly. Now it's unclear if ever— if any evidence was found there. Like, I didn't find any follow-up of any evidence being found when they built the track, but I felt like it was worth mentioning.

Yeah, for sure. And if they did find things, maybe they aren't saying it.

Just— well, and I'm gonna get into like a little bit of that, you know, because a year later in 2014, some new evidence was found. A partially buried bag was found across the street from where Molly's remains were discovered, and the bag contained plaid boxer shorts that were similar to the ones that Molly had been wearing over her bathing suit.

Oh, okay.

That day she was wearing like just like little shorts and, um, a pink tank top.

Okay.

So this, this bag that was found had shorts that were similar to the ones that she was wearing. Now that again, I haven't found any updated information regarding that discovery, like if it led anywhere else. Else, but it seems like there's been a few discoveries in recent years that the investigators are holding close to the chest, like you would say.

Yeah.

Um, it makes sense. Yeah, I couldn't—

you don't want to let everything out because—

no. And it does seem like they're kind of getting somewhere.

Like, it did. Yeah, from what I could see, it looks like they— there seems like there's something. Yeah, maybe something.

But I mean, it's been 20 years, so they probably have to go over everything like over and over again. Oh, for Now, some more, like, pretty big news broke during a 2014 campaign that Molly's family put together. It's called the Just One Piece campaign. Uh, excuse me, Just One Piece campaign. Now, the name comes from the hope that people will realize that, like, just one more piece of evidence could solve this entire case. Yeah. Or help the investigation. And it serves as a reminder that no information in this case is too small.

Yeah.

Like, if you know even just an inkling of something, call and say it.

Yeah, for sure.

If you really know it to be true. Um, but so they put together this campaign and people can come forward to make confidential statements during this that may help the investigation.

Awesome.

So in 2014 they had this and 4 people came forward to identify a new person of interest.

Oh God.

Apparently there was a man staying at a campground nearby and he was gone like one whole entire day. And it was the day that Molly went missing and he came back the next day. And his face was like all messed up. There was like scratches and his face was bloody and he was talking— excuse me, he was yelling about, quote, something bad that happened in the woods the night before.

What?

Yes. And then apparently, again, he's not named, but in recent years he has allegedly been bragging to people that he knows he's a person of interest and they still haven't like come around to interview him.

What?

Yeah.

So strange. Now his name, like I said, still hasn't been released, but that does make me slightly like hopeful that they might be onto something here.

Yeah. If they're not releasing his name, that's interesting.

That's pretty big.

I think that's interesting.

Now another piece of information that came out during the same campaign, the Just One More Piece campaign, was about a white car that may be buried at Old Sawmill Campground in West Brookfield. I'm not sure if it's the same camp, uh, campground that the unidentified man was staying at.

Oh, okay.

I couldn't determine that.

Yeah.

Um, the property isn't a campground anymore, and it's owned by a different person than it was at the time of Molly's death. Now, the new owner gave permission for the property to be searched, and ground penetrating radar was used to search the ground for a car that is supposedly buried beneath the campground.

Oh my God.

And quote, compelling anomalies were found during the search. Yes. Now I haven't seen any update about this since 2018, like the search for the car. I don't know if they found the car. I don't know anything because like, mama, I was looking like Trixie Mattel, mama. I was looking for this and looking and looking. I spent like an hour just trying to find out any update on the car situation.

I am dying.

I need to know.

I haven't found one. I haven't found one. But again, it gives me hope that like maybe they did find something and they are just not saying it right now.

Or they're really like treading water, like they're trying to make sure they do everything right because they do know that like things are connecting. I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope.

So they went out there one day and they said that like they found some stuff, and then they came back a couple days later and like looked around some more. Now, an unnamed man who looks a lot like the composite sketch actually still lives in the same area, which I don't— he could be the man that people are coming forward about. He's a known fisher and hunter, and he friends with the original owner of that campground. And Heather Bish, Molly's sister, said that at the time of Molly's murder, there was construction equipment at the campground that could have been used to aid in burying that car.

Oh, because I was gonna— that was one of the things I was like, damn, that's a lot of work to bury a car.

But then if you're friends with the guy that works there and there's already equipment, you can just dig a giant hole, stick the car in there, boom. Like, put it in neutral, you're good to go.

Oh my God, I gotta know.

Now Heather Bish seems to be the one who is really taking things over for the family right now. Um, John Sr. had a stroke. Like, they're definitely— they're not like old at all, but they're older now. And I mean, they've been through a lot in their life, so for sure I think Heather is like really like almost like the spokesperson and like really like keeping this alive. But everybody in the family has done— like, I'm gonna get into it in a but she— Heather said that she will fight until her dying day to find out who this person was and what happened to her sister.

Oh my God, I want to like help her.

I do too.

This, this is making me crazy.

I'll let you on to something at the end of this. So Molly's memory is kept alive in some really beautiful ways. The entire family, like I just said, I'm gonna get into it now. They have done the most incredible work. They've provided thousands of families from Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New York with like thousands and thousands of identification kits for their children. You know how like when a kid is little you like fingerprint them?

Yeah.

I don't even— I don't even know what goes into it, but the reason that they did this is because they didn't really have— they had like prom pictures and stuff of Molly.

Yeah, it just wasn't a thing back then.

But it wasn't exactly what she looked like, so they had trouble finding a recent picture of her.

Yeah.

So they helped other families so that like, God forbid they were ever in the circumstance, they would have all the things they need to be like, here's all of the things you will need to find them. Yes. Yeah, which is like so amazing, so like scary when you think about it, but it's something that needs to be done unfortunately, which is horrific that it needs to be done, right? They also set up the Molly Bish Foundation and they have traveled for years to different events all about protecting children against crimes like these. They helped bring the Amber Alert to Massachusetts.

Amazing.

They worked on like countless different legislations that are like all about protecting children, all about like crimes regarding children, abductions. And they also set up another foundation, uh, the Molly Bish Center for the Protection of El— of the Children and the Elderly.

My God.

So they have just like essentially dedicated their lives to getting just— not only getting justice for Molly, but like preventing this from ever happening to another family.

Willing to take that kind of tragedy and that kind of grief and turn it around, her like nightmare situation, and turn it into something like so positive, right? So like to reach out to other families and like, that's just like—

because literally like your world just implodes on you. Like, oh, it's no one imaginable. No one would blame anybody in that family for just like going to bed and like never like, oh, being the same ever again.

Yeah, like never wanting to talk to another person ever again. I would not blame one soul of them.

But then they turn around— this is like, wow, they dedicated their entire lives to this.

Unreal.

And Heather has gone on like different like, um, podcasts. She's like talked to different news outlets and everything. Like, Heather really wants to get this case solved for her sister and for her family.

I want this for her so bad.

I want it for her so badly. Oh, so this past year on June 27th, for the 20th anniversary of Molly's disappearance, Heather asked that neighbors and people along the drive to Coman's Pond leave their porch light on or a candle in the window, and also that people leave a kindness rock at the sign near the Bish house, which when I read that I was like, is that the sign? Like the yellow one?

Maybe.

Um, but leave a kindness rock there. She asked them to do it so that Maggie can use them in her garden.

I want to bring a kindness rock.

Dude, I literally in my mind, I was like, I want to drive there right now.

I want to go and leave a kindness rock.

I know. She drove her parents to the pond that day to remember Molly, as they always do on June 27th. Oh yeah. Now, District Attorney Joseph D. Early Jr. recently said, quote, the Molly Bish case is turning 20 years old— now 21, uh, but the tips still come in every week and every tip is followed up on. We have had many items tested for DNA over the years and we continue to do so. This case is very active and a tremendous amount of work is being done. I am hopeful it will be solved.

Oh.

And investigators ask that people come forward and share their DNA, especially now that familial DNA is becoming really helpful in cold cases. Yeah, like they're really asking for people to do that. Now this is so important. If you're listening to anything, listen to this. Anyone with information about the Molly Bish case can call the state police tip line at 508-453-7575. Again, 508-453-7575.

Amazing.

And Heather Bish said, just to end this, quote, if the person who did this could have a change of heart and tell us what happened, it would give us a certain amount of peace and closure, just as far as justice is concerned. Oh, so that is the really, really, really tragic case of Molly Bish.

You did such a good job with that, and also this case.

Wow. I really hope that we can like deliver some kind of update. Like, I hope so, as soon as possible.

I swear, I wish— I like want to help.

I know how I would too.

I just want to help. It's one of those cases you always feel so helpless in these, but like this particular case just—

it's big.

I think resonates.

Yeah, the fact that it's a Massachusetts case, the fact that it's like just the, the fact that it happened so quickly, it was clearly like somewhat planned.

Yeah, it just— yeah, it's definitely— I, I know it definitely part of it is like Massachusetts family. You just feel like you're just like, I just want to help you.

When like watching interviews with this family, like I watched so many interviews and just like different, like reading different things that they said, they're just like your typical family. Like they're like your friend, like your best friend's family, or like they're just very relatable people.

I just want to give them what they deserve. Yeah, I want to give them I want to give them some kind of closure and some kind of peace. I really do.

Well, if you go to the Molly Bish Foundation website, they have different ways like where you can help. Like if you want to get involved in this, that's the perfect place for you to go. They have different resources where you can.

Because sometimes you just feel like so helpless listening to a story like this. Like I have on like on different things and I'm like, I just, I want to do something, but I feel like I can't.

So go there and figure out how to help.

At least try.

Yeah, and it's seriously, if you know something, call that number that I said.

Yes.

Only if you know something like for real.

Yes, please.

But like they said, like no matter how little you think it is, it could be make or break. You never know.

Yeah, because it could connect to something else that you don't even know exists. So if you know anything, if you heard anything, if you saw anything, anything, jog your memory. Yeah, just think about it. Think about it, assholes.

Come on, assholes. Come on, we're good at this stuff.

We are.

But yeah. Wow. So that is that.

Thank you for that. And thank you, Patronuses, for choosing that case because that was one we always intended to cover, but you guys just sped it up. So thank you for finally getting us to do it.

Moving that to the top of our list.

Yeah.

We just got off the phone with a very special guest, and I'm like hyped that we got to do this.

Yeah, it was amazing.

It was. So in episode 214, we covered the case of Molly Bish. Molly Bish was a 16-year-old lifeguard who on the morning of June 27th, 2000, was essentially abducted from her lifeguard post. And really just honestly go back and listen to the episode if you need like a refresher or anything like that. In plain daylight. Yeah. Because in plain daylight she was abducted from her. It was literally 10 o'clock in the morning.

Yeah.

Terrifying.

It's so scary. But we, before actually I, we did the episode, I actually reached out to Molly's sister, Heather, who's like very active in trying to solve Molly's case because this is an unsolved case.

Yeah.

So before.

It's just crazy. It's like 20 plus years later.

It's so crazy and it's, it's so sad.

It's like a very tragic case and we're from Massachusetts, so it's like, right, I feel like everybody from Massachusetts feels like they have some kind of like personal stake in this case. Like you just, you want to see this. And like you'll hear in the interview, we love the Bish family and I just feel like they are like our family and we want to, we want this case to be solved for like our Massachusetts brethren.

So before, I mean, I read a ton about Heather before I started, or while I was researching the case, because she's so involved in trying to figure everything out. So we actually reached out to Heather and said, hey, you know, we're going to cover Molly's case. If you want to come on the show for like an afterwards kind of interview to tell us about the work that she's been doing to really get this case solved, and then tell us what we can do and the numbers that we can call and reach out to to help her get this case solved.

Exactly, because this is unsolved, which is nuts.

So I'm so stoked that Heather was willing to do that, and she joined us for an episode and You guys are going to love this episode.

She's amazing. You're all going to fall in love with her.

Heather Fish is an icon, everybody.

And what we talk about a lot in this, I just want to put it out first so that everybody can like start Googling it while it's beginning because it's important, is she's really starting to try or starting. She's really in the deep in the process of trying to push forward the bill, which is S. 1595 in Massachusetts. And she will— I'll let her explain in the episode what it's all about. It's basically to help push forward DNA that was found in Molly's case and also can help in other cases for rape kits. It has tons of implications. So go look that up real quick before the episode starts because I think you're going to want to know what's in there.

Yeah, definitely. And then after the episode is over, whip out your cell phone and just start calling everyone we said to call.

Yeah, we'll take a look at the show notes. I'll make sure I put all the information in there for you guys. To, uh, so we can get this case solved. It's time.

It is.

It's time for Molly, and it's time for the bitches.

Time for this all. So I think without further ado, here it is.

Enjoy, guys.

Well, thank you so much, Heather, for coming on the show. We're honestly really honored to have you as a guest, and we appreciate you even taking the time to talk to us.

Oh, that's so kind. You guys are really— I, I'm appreciative with what you're doing and sharing these stories and sharing Molly's story especially. You know, that, that's so important, especially with these older cases. I mean, this is— this podcast phenomenon has just been so interesting to me, and I'm just like cheering all of you, you guys on the sidelines. Just, I love it. You know, for every case that's getting pieces of information coming forward or even arrests happening, I'm just just in awe of the work of all the— excuse me— creators that are out there, um, you know, really sharing these stories. So I am honored.

Oh, thank you so much.

That was so sweet.

We were both just sitting there like, oh my God, thank you.

Already off to a wholesome start. I know, right?

Well, like you— I mean, like you were saying, that this case, Molly's case specifically, it captivated— I mean, the nation. Yeah, it captivated everyone. And we got requests to cover Molly's case from all over the world. Like before we covered it, people were like, please cover this case. And we were always waiting to do it because we wanted to do it really right because we're from Massachusetts too. So we were like—

We felt like a connection to this.

Yeah, we feel like this is like one of our family members because, you know, here in Massachusetts, we're all just like feeling like we're one. So we were like, we got to do this right. And I think when that happens, it can be, you know, it can be great because like information is getting out there. People are behind this case wanting to solve it, wanting to move it forward. But I imagine it must be kind of hard too, in a way, for family members, because you have memories of Molly as a sister. Your brother has memories of Molly as a sister. Your parents have memory of Molly as a daughter. She was a lifeguard. She was a friend. She was a person. She's not just Molly Bish. The murder victim. And I think sometimes that can get lost in translation, which I imagine can be kind of difficult for you guys at times.

It is. And, you know, I think there's some, you know, there's some— I don't know, I think when there's like a benefit of being able to talk about Molly. I think when you lose someone you love, whether it's a sibling or a spouse or your best friend, you know, people people can kind of get weird and they don't want to say anything and sometimes they'll even avoid walking down the same hallway as you, you know, just to not be in that awkward position. And I think, and so, you know, people don't get a chance to talk about the person that they loved, you know, and sometimes people are afraid to bring it up because, you know, that loss was so sad and so devastating. But having the chance to talk about Molly, you know, and share You know, the work that we do is really a reflection of Molly's love and her love for the world and people, and it's kept us going. And I guess that is a really special privilege of all this craziness and all the ugliness is that we do get to talk about my sister and think about her and share how our special memories and our moments of joy and how we were proud of her.

And sometimes my brother and I will have conversations after we, you know, I do these podcasts or there's a news article or something and we'll talk about like, what do you think she'd be like? Or who would she still be friends with from her friend group? Or what would she think of this particular situation? Or, you know, and it's kind of fun for us to do that, to imagine what what our life would be like to have her with us still, because we miss her. I mean, that loss is still felt every single day. Um, you know, I miss calling her when something good happens. I really miss her on my birthday. I hate my birthday without my sister. It's, it's still awful 20 years later. I just— she should be there with me. And every year that I have to face without her, it just— it's like, you know, everything that that scab off and, and bleeding again. Um, so it's, yeah, it's hard, but there's, there is, you try to, I guess, when there's hard things, always look for, um, those moments, uh, that offer, you know, the good and, and try to embrace that because I don't know how we would survive all this terrible stuff in the world if we didn't.

Seriously, I can't even imagine.

Trying to navigate this whole entire thing, you know, on top of everything else in the world.

So, right, I learned you have such a healthy way of looking at it, coping.

Yeah, that I think a lot of people would have trouble doing.

Can we plug mental health and taking care of our emotional health right now? And, and yes, be not afraid to go to therapy for 20 years.

Absolutely.

Because it's so important to continue to unwrap how you're responding to the world and, and how your family culture, um, sort of trained you to respond to the world and how, you know, you either want to continue that or maybe think about a different way of doing it.

Exactly.

Yeah, we're Irish Catholic over here, so we know all about that.

Yeah, we grew up in a big Irish Catholic family.

We're like, maybe we should talk about our feelings, right?

Oh, I just, I love that generation. I, again, I work at a college, so I have the privilege of working with the younger generations, and I just love how they're growing up so much more inclusively and talking about feelings. And I just think it's going to make a better world someday.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. For sure.

I know. And it's really up to us at this point to teach the younger generation how to do that, because I think our parents' generation was like right at that point where they were like, like kind of ready to tell us to talk about her.

Towing the line, right?

It gets better each time.

Yep, exactly. Yeah.

Well, going off of that, what is like one thing about Molly from a sister's perspective that you want people to know about Molly, or even like a specific memory that you guys have together that makes you smile?

Uh, I think I, I always talk about Molly's love for the world, love people. She She loved animals, she loved babies, she loved being outside, the sunshine, a beautiful day, getting an ice cream cone. She loved living, she loved life, she loved being a part of what was happening around her. And I think, you know, when I think about Molly and I guess I'm always most proud of how she welcomed people. She, when she had an art class, she had some special needs students in there and I always tell the story of how So she would write them a note and kind of like encouraging them to be a part of the class and welcoming them and making them feel at home because they weren't in the other classes with the rest of the students. They were in like a separate classroom. And, you know, just her empathy and her ability to think about other people, that thoughtfulness, and I try to carry that out with me in my life and think about different perspectives and turn things over all the time, and because of my sister. And she was my baby sister, but that's what she taught me in my life.

And, you know, I hope that people know that the work that we do is because of that, because Molly cared so much about people. She cared so much about the world and, you know, making people feel safe and comfortable in their environment. And that's, you know, that's sort of, you know, the premise of everything that we want, um, to see happening. And, you know, I guess when you have a case that's 20, almost 21 years old, you're like, where is this guy? And has he hurt other people? And you, you know, as you are— you know, you guys explore all these various cases and you know there's a lot of bad guys out there.

There's a lot.

And so scary. And you can go from, you know, being a narcissist to a murderer. And you know, a short time. Right. And again, you know, that mental health is so important. But, you know, I think just trying to, you know, live in a way that we're trying to make the world safer because of Molly. And so, you know, recently I've been working on this familial DNA legislation in Massachusetts which they have in like, I think, 14 other states. And it's just really just a process to test the DNA or unidentified DNA from an older case or an older, you know, maybe a rape case or a murder and be able to have a larger— I call it a net to sort of get the bad guy. And, you know, we have this CODIS system that has all of our felonies in their DNA profiles, theoretically. I know you guys know this.

Oh no, yeah, no, go ahead though.

Yeah, because this is, this is Bill, um, is it S1595?

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, because we were, we were going to ask you, like, by all means, tell us as much as you can about that. Yeah, we want everybody to know about that.

Yeah. So, so it just really— what it does is it allows law enforcement to put this unidentified DNA forward into CODIS again and test for a partial match or a familial match. So it might, you know, touch on someone 56% or 37%, but that will lead investigators to say, hmm, someone in this family committed this rape or committed this murder. They can go back to the drawing board and sort of figure out where the players were in that family that day.

It narrows the field, like, unbelievably.

And what's interesting to me that I found out is that 50% of the people in CODIS have a relative in CODIS.

So it's so funny because I came across that too, and it shocked me.

I know, that's a high number.

But then I thought, like, like, "Okay, well, there's a lot of teachers in my family. That's my family culture." And I guess if you're in a family culture that rapes or molests each other, that's going to continue. And so they are going to have people getting arrested in the same family network that are experiencing that trauma. I mean, we all know that these behaviors aren't coming out of the blue. Most people are turning to crime and these horrific things they do to other people because of trauma.

Oh yeah, nurture is a huge part of it.

Yeah. So, you know, it's that— that's a sad societal, um, number story for us. But if we look at it in a law enforcement perspective or a victim perspective, those are— I mean, those are— those are— those are odds I'd put money on at a casino, you know.

Oh yeah, yeah, seriously, for real.

You know, we're going to get the bad guy and we're using science and it hasn't, you know, you know, unidentified the wrong person. You know, it's actually used by the Innocence Project in Michigan as a way to exonerate people. So really it's just, um, for this bill, it's just setting up a protocol in how we would do it in Massachusetts. Um, and I'm just really, really hopeful that, you know, we can get this through. We have an 8,000— about an 8,000 rape kit backlog in Massachusetts. So we really need to get on top of what's happening forensically in our state. I mean, we're leaders with MIT and WPI. There's no reason— we're cranking out forensic scientists in Boston, and they're all leaving the state. We need to, you know, sort of put some resources together for our forensics. I think.

Absolutely.

Definitely.

Yeah, we need to nourish this. We have it here, we're building it here, we need to nourish it here, right?

Exactly. And you know, we have a lot of— you know, Worcester County alone has 40 to 60 unresolved cases. That's so crazy.

So sad.

They go back to the '50s, and you know, technology might be able to identify this by now, you know. So it's just I think it's just so important to use what scientific, you know, resources are available for law enforcement. I mean, in today's society, I mean, there's, you know, good cops and bad cops, just like everything, good teachers and bad teachers. And you want to give the good police officers all the tools available to get those bad people off the street. So, you know, there aren't like 70,000 rape kits to make, right? Yes.

Because I think that's, that's one of the huge things about this is this bill can not only help cases like Molly's and families, you know, that are going through the same thing that you're going through, but this can— those rape kits that are sitting on the shelf, it's like this can get rapists off the street. Like, this is something everybody should be invested in and everybody should be behind.

Absolutely, 100%. And you know, some of these rapes are violent. Yeah. You know, like, like I keep trying to stress, and I, you know, I know I'm preaching to the choir with you guys, but, you know, it's a hair's breadth away when, when someone commits one crime to go to the next level. Of course. Or, you know, is in a state of sort of paranoia or psychosis to go, you know, further, deeper. I think we just, you know, we need all our tools available.

Absolutely. Because some of these can connect to more violent you know, uh, offenders. Yeah, like, you know, somebody raped someone and they could have escalated to something else and we have no idea, right?

Yep, exactly, exactly.

Do you think— oh, sorry, go ahead.

Oh, I— so I was just gonna say, I, I, you know, I'm just really hopeful this time that it will go through because we started this about 2 years ago. Um, I had talked to my, my law enforcement detectives and they had asked that, you know, Heather, if you want, want to work on something, we could really use this familial DNA. And I had no idea what it was at the time. I'm just like, okay, let's do it.

Sure, like anything, let's do it.

You know, being in Massachusetts, they're like, every other state has done this as a policy, and Massachusetts is like, nope, we want a law. And so frustrating.

Thanks, Mass.

Fine. But I'm like, I will climb every mountain. I will I will scream from the mountaintops until I get this guy, and who cares how far it takes me. I am bound and determined. And, you know, now it's, you know, when you're in that club, you know, that everybody talks about that nobody wants to belong to, like the, um, you know, you really start caring about all these other victims, particularly the ones with that attention. Like, I constantly talk about Patty Gagne, who was murdered in Worcester. Her brother found her the next day. You know, people didn't search for Patty like they did for Molly, you know, and they— she didn't get the national attention that Molly has gotten. And, you know, I just hope that maybe this will help solve Patty Gagne's case too. Absolutely important, as, as all these other victims, um, that I've seen on the news and, and in podcasts. And, um, you know, so yeah, we're, we're all in this together. And, and, you know, I'm just really hopeful that this will go through this time because We, during COVID it kind of fell apart. And I was on the Mass Missing Persons Task Force.

So we were kind of looking at legislation that was floating around in Massachusetts and trying to put a report together to encourage the legislators to just pass this kind of no-brainer. So, yeah, they said, why don't we send your bill, Heather, over to the Forensic Oversight Committee? And, you know, being an educator, I'm like, yes, I am used to working with like, you know, when I have a problem, I'm working with the autism specialist and the, you know, the 4th grade teacher. And, you know, we're all kind of coming up with something together. And I literally did a bill myself. I'm, you know, a special ed teacher, not a forensic scientist.

But here we go.

You're like, I am putting on another hat.

Seriously. So it worked out really well because they provide the feedback where we were able to edit the bill. Really to fit our logistical structures and systems in Massachusetts. And I think it's going in really strong. And I've been spending probably the last 2 months calling legislators and just asking them to support this. And most of them will see me or see me over Zoom and have been really supportive. But some of them won't meet with me because I'm not in their jurisdiction. So I've been trying to start doing TikToks and whatever media I can use to sort of get people who are in, you know, just people to reach out to their legislators and ask them to support this bill and be the voice that I can't be in their jurisdiction to possibly get this passed. You know, it's important for victim families, it's important for law enforcement, and it's most important for the justice for, for all these victims that we have.

100%, definitely.

Do you—

is there anything else that people can do, like people listening, other— like call legislation, obviously?

Yeah, I would say that would be the most important thing. If people could, um, call their legislators and just ask them to support S1595, um, in Massachusetts. And we have a list of legislators on our website. Oh, great. Mollyvish.com. Um, so people, if you don't know who your legislator is or turned over, you know, things were kind of crazy this year with COVID Who knows what, who's who or what.

Exactly.

But that's good you have that right there for people to find.

And we'll share, we'll put that, the link in our show notes for this, so people will have all the places they can go.

Yeah, we can even post like a picture of it.

Yeah.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate Oh, absolutely.

I think this is like huge. Like, I'm— we are fully like, yes, let's do this!

When we stepped into this case and just kind of started going through everything, I think because we are sisters, it almost gave us that extra edge that like, we want to help you, we feel so connected to this.

Yeah, it felt like Molly was like— we felt like your family reminded us so much of our family, our big Massachusetts family. Like, we just— your parents just like I remember us in the episode, we're just like, "Oh my God, I just love this family and I want them to get justice so badly." Oh, thank you so much.

I just, you know, I feel like that's, you know, Molly's love shining down somehow. When I started this, it's so interesting, there was a little article in the Cape Cod Times. I live out here in Cape Cod now. And so, this man emailed me from California. His name is Rock Harmon, and he's actually the this DNA expert that travels the world training law enforcement and prosecutors and defense attorneys on using DNA and the different tools. And I didn't— I don't know who I'm talking to, but he, you know, he was very nice and really coaching me and helping me really understand the science part, which was really imperative for me to do this.

Yeah, huge.

So turns out he was a former prosecutor on the O.J. Simpson case.

Oh wow.

So, um, touched by, you know, what had happened in that case, that became sort of a mission for him. And retired in California, and he's been, you know, sending me articles and explaining things for me, going to meetings with me, talking to district attorneys to explain the real nuances between like YSTR profiles and familial DNA and what one of these little differences. So he, you know, to me those are like when Mr. Roger talks about look for the, you know, look for the helpers.

Yes, look for the helpers.

That's the helpers, and that's, you know, those are the things you hold on to in life and remember all the good and the good people that are still out there because we're much stronger than, you know, these people who are really sick. Committing horrific acts, right?

And there's been a lot of people of interest, it seems, over the course of the past 20 years. Is there anyone on the suspect list that— or anyone on, uh, as a person of interest that you think is a good candidate for this? Or do you think that it's someone we maybe even haven't looked at yet?

Yeah, I wish, you know, I, I wish I could just feel like, you know, that that sisterly connection, that that's the guy. But there's so much circumstantial evidence to—

so much—

some particular people that have been out there in the media. And, um, you know, there's always that wild card that was this just someone that happened to go smoke a cigarette after— before he went to work, or after he dropped off, you know, his mother off at an appointment or something. Saw this lifeguard there and then came back the next day and grabbed her.

Yeah.

You know, I, I've never really been able to identify the guy in the white car. He's never come forward. So could he be Rodney Stanker? Could he be Gerald Bastoni? Could he be, um, you know, any of the number of other people that have been brought up?

Right.

Possibly, possibly, because we know witness, you know, um, testimony is kind of tricky. And my mom you know, saw the guy, but, you know, it's hard to say that's the guy, that's the guy, that's definitely the guy. They all look like the guy.

Yeah, they all do in some specific way. It's true. It must be so frustrating too, because I'm sure you get this really giant feeling of hope every time a new person is introduced.

Absolutely, I do. And, you know, you, you just, you know, you try to make sense of of who, who would, um, how would they exist after, and who, you know, who could possibly do this after 20 years and just sit, you know, what are they doing now? I mean, that's, I think, what gives me the most anxiety is where is this guy and what is he doing? If he's in jail, great. If he's dead, great. If he's one of those two guys and he's either dead or in jail, then okay. But right, and so it's hard to rest left, you know.

Oh, I can't imagine.

Know that. And, um, uh, you know, I, I wish I, I wish I could, you know, know. I, you know, we talked to psychics. I mean, when Molly first disappeared, I had an 11-month-old baby, and I would have her on my hip, and I'd be running through the woods with these psychics. And I mean, I didn't know if I was going to find my sister's body or, or something, you know. It was so terrifying, but you didn't know what to do. And you're just trying to do something. Um, but you know, no one's ever been able to say exactly and point me to the evidence. I mean, I've worked with some really, really great psychics I think are, you know, meaning well and authentic, but still have not been able to break down, you know, who did this. And, and, you know, so I've tried, I've tried every avenue for sure. I mean We've put up billboards, we've taken out ads in newspapers, we've— I've put up posters in 351 towns in Massachusetts and, you know, I've actually hired producers to document a YouTube movie video so that I could keep my, you know, parents' story and sort of a summary on the story and be able to share it because of the time lapse and people not, you know, necessarily remembering what happened.

Right.

So, you know, we've tried everything, and, you know, this— the results of the familial searching and across the country are just so phenomenal and really hopeful. And, you know, that even the genetic genealogy work they're doing, um, I, I'm just so hopeful that Massachusetts will really grab onto that and, and, and demonstrate, you know, the, the leadership that they, um, should be having in this field, I think.

Yeah, because it does feel like it's like, it's like right there, like it could be hidden in there somewhere. Why are we not doing this?

I mean, the stuff they're doing in California is unbelievable. Yeah, I mean, we have this controversy right now with these YSPR lists And some of the district attorneys are keeping what the forensic lab in Massachusetts is calling rogue lists, but I would probably just call them unregulated.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So they would get like a profile back, you know, they might get a crime scene DNA or sometimes they're even using voluntary DNA, but they're you know, putting it through the lab, it doesn't have a hit, then they're keeping the, the profile separately. I'm not really supposed to do that, but they're saying nothing saying that they can't do that. And Bristol County was able to solve a case with Plymouth working together on that. The thing is YSCI only gives you father-son profiles, so it's a little more limiting. Oh, okay. But, and so if you did like like, like if you— like if I was in charge of the world, or the, uh, you know, you do the first CODIS search, right? And then you do the familial, because that's gonna catch the wire net. You actually don't need the YSTR profile if you do the familial. Kind of negates it.

Oh, that makes sense, right?

Uh, so, but I mean, if they're not in CODIS, I mean, I, I, you know, there's value to it if it's regulated. Um, Orange County uses it in California, and they they basically will like let a guy off on a misdemeanor if he gives them their DNA, and then they catch them for a rape, you know, 3 months later. I mean, they're dealing with a probably a different population, you know, gang life out there and stuff. But, um, um, you know, it's an effective tool and certainly has demonstrated to be effective here. And I think that maybe is just maybe a separate bill that needs to be put forward differently. Oh yeah. But I always try to explain it because, you know, it was on the news and, and sometimes the reporters don't go into the whole story of what's really happening here.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, I get why that the DAs are doing it. Again, they wanna solve these 8,000 rapes that are backlogged at the lab. They're definitely committed to getting the bad guys off the street. It's just, you know, you know, again, I think we just need to update our 22E law and and make these, you know, changes to our protocols so that we can do these tests and, you know, have these tools and see what happens.

Definitely. One of the things that we actually talked about in our episode was at the old Sawmill Campground that you guys use the ground penetrating radar. And I didn't really see any update on that after like 2018. Was that any— did anything like useful come of that or anything at all?

Oh, that was a good one. So I, you know, have worked with a number of different private investigators over, you know, since I guess when my father had a stroke, I kind of took over the investigation in 2007. So I worked at different— a couple different ones bringing different people forward. Um, we had a volunteer in our foundation who, who, you know, was volunteering in 2003 when she was getting her degrees in criminal criminology and forensics and stuff like that. She ended up getting a doctorate and moving back here, you know, a few years before that ground-penetrating car thing happened. And she was trying to help me because I, you know, again, I'm like running out of ideas. Okay, I put up, you know, posters, I put up ads, I put up, you know, all these things. What else can I do? And so we came up with an idea of doing a TIP campaign, and she was going to use her students from college where she taught to collect the tips, and then we sort of organized them and then present them to the police. And so that's how this third person of interest sort of came forward, um, that she sort of identified through these, um, this TIP campaign.

Um, because of that, she felt really strongly that there was a car in campground. So she arranged with someone from the University of Connecticut to come out and use this ground penetrating radar. However, our state police were not involved in it, and I was actually at my daughter's, um, she was just starting college orientation, um, and so we were, you know, I wasn't available, and it turned into sort of this media circus, and I was kind of upset because it was supposed to be like You know, I like to work with the police. You know, again, I recognize all the issues. I literally have a book ready to publish on my relationship with the police and how it's impacted my life. Oh, wow.

Congratulations on writing a book. That's huge.

I got a couple edits to do, but, you know, I still try to work with them. I try to encourage best practices and have the hope that this institution is going to, um, you know, someday get the, get the concept here.

That's great.

If I could just, if I could say that lightly enough. But yeah, so, so I was kind of upset that she, you know, had it turn out this way. And so I was like, let's cease and desist. I don't want to do this anymore. And, um, and she just kept pushing. She ended up having a press conference without my— my— our knowledge acknowledged. Oh no, he says. So it really— and I was like, you're— you've crossed my boundaries now.

Yeah, absolutely.

Let's stop this now. And so I never found out what happened with the car. I don't think it had— I'm certain that the police could get that information. Um, and they were so irritated and so close to like charging her that, um, it never— so I don't think that there's anything to the campground or the car.

Okay, that makes sense.

Yeah, so frustrating.

Yeah, and then she wrote a book after.

Oh, oh my goodness.

Yeah, are you kidding me?

That is not okay.

But you know what, it would have been fine if she had done like a case study on Molly's— yeah, case and she had the education to do that, but she put my parents' speeches into the book and, like, put herself into our story, like she was part of our life.

Oh no. Oh, that, that honestly, like, gives me, like, a pit in my stomach.

Yeah, I was good. I was gonna say my stomach just flipped.

So gross.

Literally, like, she wrote letters to Molly in this book. Like, if you read this book, holy smokes.

Oh, I hate that. See, that's the thing that's frustrating. Like, yeah, to go through that.

Yeah, very betraying, very violating.

Yeah, that's the thing, violation is what it feels like, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, very, very much so. Oh, so, um, yeah, I mean, that's where that went. So I'm kind of just doing this on my own, but I'm so appreciative of these, you know, podcasts updating about the case and, and, you know, the work that we're trying to do to to keep it going. And, you know, I'm not sure what I'll have to do after this bill, but I'm sure there's more work to be done to support these cases. You know, I was talking to a producer the other day, and I said, if I told you that I was in a relationship with someone who, you know, gaslighted me and projected and, you know, and I kind of gave her some specific situations that had happened, and she's like, yeah, I would say you're in an abusive relationship. And I said, what if I told you that was the state police and it wasn't a man?

Oh my God, that was the perfect way to do that.

That's awesome. Now the drop. Yeah.

Oh, she's like, hold on a sec, does that change things?

Or— right. And I told her, I said, and, and then I'm a white woman with a sister who's blonde and blue-eyed, and we know those cases get more attention. Yeah. And I have— and I have a doctor, I'm educated, and I'm still treated this way.

So how do you imagine—

and my father was in law enforcement, he was a probation officer, so there's a little— and, you know, they're a little nice about my dad. But, you know, if they're treating me this way, how do you think they're treating Patty Gonyea's family?

Yes, absolutely.

That's— that's— I think I think for probably a lifelong work that all of us victim family members are pushing and sort of trying to figure out how to, um, you know, get our points across and get them to understand our perspective without being sort of labeled the crazy victim family member.

Of course, right?

Well, and I feel like that's something we can all take from Molly and who she was and who, you know, you knew her as, and who everyone who knew her knew her as, which is like empathy, caring about the world, caring about other people, like putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. This is what everybody should be learning, is like, it's not just about mine, it's about everybody else's too.

You know what, it's like be Molly in art class.

Yeah, exactly right.

That should be everybody's thought.

It should.

I love it.

I'm so happy you shared that with us. That made me honestly like choke up a little bit.

I know.

That's great. Oh, thank you guys. I really appreciate it.

Oh yeah, absolutely. One of the other things that we had spoken about in our episode, and I was just curious as to your opinion on this, is, um, the Holly Perrinen case. I, I know it's like heavily compared to Molly's case, and some of the suspects or persons of interest were looked at in both cases. Do you think that maybe those cases are connected, or what are your thoughts on that?

You know, I think that there is certainly, um, lots of room to look at the connections. I think that's really incredibly important, but I don't necessarily think it's the same person. But I do that, you know, my father used to say, if you lay down with dogs, you're gonna get fleas. Yeah, that's who your friends are, right? Absolutely. I kind of think that there's a I had a group out in that area. Again, these generational traumas, you know, same kind of history of violence, history of family violence, history of beatings, history of molestation, history of, you know, Uncle Marion, the cousin, sister, brother, you know, like that kind of stuff. And they're all connected in these weird ways. And that's the stuff I talked to the detectives about because I'm like, do you understand this? I know when I walk into your office, this. It's not going to be like, um, you know, like the TV shows where you've got the all the guys and the strings connecting people.

And, you know, we always talk about that.

We literally don't even have data systems that talk to each other, barely, right? So, so to even look up a guy, you know, that from a while ago is, is difficult for them. And then to get the larger perspective of Sorry, it's okay.

I have a dog too, so I get it.

Dogs and girls. And so to have those nuances and know that this guy was best friends with this guy, or they're cousins, or they're— they used to, um, I don't know, ride motorcycles together. Like, those little nuances, I'm afraid, are missed. Yeah. Um, I don't know, they're not from, you know Warren, Massachusetts, or Sturbridge, Massachusetts. So you don't necessarily know that, you know, and I'm making these names up, the Smiths are related to the Johnsons or whatever. They, they don't have that kind of network information. So that's the stuff I'm afraid gets lost. And that's— those are the key pieces that I think could possibly show that there's a tie in between Holly and Molly's case. Yeah, I different, you know, ages, different situations and how they were abducted, certainly different times. And again, I keep trying to say, I mean, I think it's so easy to want to believe that it's one bad guy killing all these girls in a specific area. The sad reality is that there's a lot of different bad guys and they're all killing different girls.

Or exactly, it's like indicative of like a darker pathology as a whole. Right, in the community, you know, that like a subculture isn't looked at.

Yeah, yep, exactly, exactly. And that's what's so scary, and, and that's why it's so important to continue, um, to look for ways to protect, um, you know, our children and our women and, you know, our, our society. And, you know, sharing these stories and working on legislation and, and encouraging the mental health component, I think are just such important pieces to continue to talk about and discuss and provide reasons why.

Yeah, definitely.

Exactly. I think—

I mean—

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

I was going to say real quick, I think one of the really transformative moments for me was when that little girl, and I don't know if you remember, last maybe 2 years ago now, there was a little girl abducted in Springfield, Massachusetts. Yes. And they— Amber Alert— and she was recovered. I mean, I'll bet she had been through some pretty bad trauma, but she was recovered alive. And I called my mom and I said, Mom, that was your Steve. Because we always, when we started the foundation, we were always like, we don't know if we're really helping, you know, we don't know if we're saving children. Like, there's no, you know, data system saying, oh, this kid wasn't abducted because, you know, Maggie helped bring Amber Alert to Massachusetts, or started Missing Children's Day, or, you know, started talking about child identification kits. Um, so when that happened, and my mom did, um, work on the Amber Alert law coming to Massachusetts and, um, talked Ted Kennedy into, um, signing that bill. And, and so I felt like she needed that. She needed to know that that little girl had been saved because of her work and her efforts.

And I think if we continue to do things like that that, you know, other little girls will be saved. And, and, you know, maybe we won't have to, um, you know, experience these kinds of tragedies and traumas anymore. And again, if we continue to look at trauma and, and understand it and, and, and try to support people through it, um, you know, maybe things will look differently for everybody.

Absolutely. I think that's like the main message there, right there, right? And also, your family's— they're You are such badasses.

You have done such incredible work, all of you together.

It's unreal.

Thank you. I mean, again, I think it's just, you know, an outlet to love my sister and, you know, share that love. And that's really all you can do when you're faced with something like this.

Yeah, no, it really is. I think kind of just to end all of this, What can— what, what is one last thing you can tell us all that we can do to help you and your family get Molly's case solved?

Well, I think the best thing anyone could do right now is to go on mollybish.com and find their Massachusetts legislator, and if they're in Massachusetts, and reach out to him or her and ask them to support S.1595 to be passed this, this year. If you're not from Massachusetts, you know, continuing to share Molly's story, continuing to share the results of familial DNA analysis across the country. I mean, right now we only have about 14, 15 states that have it, and there's 50 states in this country. So we really need to get on this because there's certainly Molly's case and Kate, you know, isn't the only case. I mean, whether I have friends in Minnesota and Florida who have experienced equally traumatizing abductions in their family. And, you know, having these tools are, are important for all of us to have in this country and to keep us all safer.

Absolutely. And I think I want to encourage everyone to go to the Molly Bish Foundation webpage, which we'll— we're going to link all of these things in the show notes so everybody can get to all of this.

This.

Also, if you want to read Bill S.1595, I'm going to link where you can read that too, because you can go on the masslegislature.gov website to find it. Uh, but I think this is— it's important. Everybody should know that this is like so far-reaching. This is so necessary. It's so important that this bill goes through. So everybody give your support.

Yeah, as a true crime community, let's come together and get this done.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

No, thank you.

Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us, and everything you shared was just like so, so eye-opening.

Yeah, it really was. This was such an awesome conversation.

Thank you. I really appreciate it, and I just really appreciate you guys and your, um, support and your dedication and, um, you know, being from Massachusetts.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

And we'll absolutely stay in touch. And if anything else that— anything else comes up that we can do to help, like, we really want to help work with you.

Yeah, we feel like very strongly about this case, about you guys, your family, about Molly. We would love to push this forward in any way we can.

Awesome. Thank you so very much. I will definitely stay in touch.

Absolutely. You are welcome anytime here.

You have our number now, so text us anytime or call.

Any updates, we'll have you right back on.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Heather.

Take care.

You too.

Bye. Bye.

So we hope you guys enjoyed that episode.

Yes.

I think it was awesome. And you can go to the MollyBishFoundation.com or excuse me, MollyBishFoundation.com to contact your legislators and ask them to support Bill S1595.

Yeah. And we'll put all that in the show notes. So just look at where you look at the details for the episode and we'll have all those all the links in there that you can follow. But do it. I think it's good for everybody. It's going to benefit us all. So it is.

And thanks again to Heather for joining us.

Thank you so much, Heather. You were a gem.

So guys, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. But that's everything you don't call about Bill S. 1595.

Woo!