Transcript of What It's Like To Stay Together For the Kids— and the Mortgage Rate

I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. Would you live with your ex for a 2% mortgage? That is a very real question that Morgan Dixon and her ex-husband, Ryan, had to ask themselves, and ultimately, they said yes. Today, I chat with Morgan, who you might have seen in the Wall Street Journal, in a piece that went viral for all the right, and as I find out, a few wrong reasons. The article spotlighted how Morgan is still living with her ex-husband because of a 2% mortgage rate. Although, as Morgan tells me, there is more to the story, as there always is. But as a side note, two exes living together because of a mortgage rate is my dream rom-com, just saying. Anyway, Morgan is a real-life example of the lock-in effect, the phenomenon where homeowners don't sell their properties because current mortgage rates are relatively higher than what they have now. The article that features Morgan and her ex says that between mid-2022 and mid-2024, the lock-in effect prevented nearly 2 million home sales. Today, Morgan shares her story. And then we dive deeper into the financial side of marriage, divorce, and everything in between.

The interview after this.

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Morgan, welcome to Money Rehab.

Hi. Thank you so much for inviting me. This is so cool.

It is so cool to be able to talk to you. I was so taken by your story, and I just love to get right into it because I saw the headline, You and your ex-husband are holding on to your home because of your mortgage rate. How did we get here?

Yes. And so for me, that title was a bit deceiving. We were definitely doing this arrangement. Our primary reason is for our kids, the benefit of our children to have us both accessible so they can see their mom and dad every day. There is obviously this financial gain. We just, I think, looked around in the neighborhood and prices. If I wanted to buy something else, even a few blocks away, it's just so expensive now and the interest rates are so high. I think the last I checked was 6 %. And then I was also looking, I mean, our property value from the time we bought our properties has almost gone up at least 75%. I mean, it's very... Our values are increasing. And so in our settlement, Ryan and I agree, everything after we die is going to go to our kids. And so if we can hold on to these properties, for sure, after our time is here in the world, hopefully our kids will have these very nice properties that will be worth a lot, that they can either live in or cash in or whatever. So, yeah, looking at it and the big picture of what could we afford now and then also 50 years from now or even 10 years from now.

It makes more sense for us to hold onto these properties. So how could we make our way of living work like that.

How do you make it work? What are the sleeping arrangements?

We use a note, an Apple app every week to decide who gets what night. It's usually three nights with me and four nights with him or vice versa. We'll decide that at the beginning of every week. We try to allocate times where I have the house totally to myself with the kids and then vice versa for Ryan. A lot of communication and planning. If I I'm sleeping in the house, I'm sleeping with the kids. Basically, because I live in the Airstream trailer, or I was, I found out after the article was published that that's illegal, and the city code came And I came home with a note on the door saying no living in the Airstream. What?

Wait, so they saw that from the article that you were living there?

I love our city. We were unaware that that was illegal, and they were just so mind about it. And so since then, I've been sleeping in the house. I do store some things out there just because I'm preparing for a build and we're just sorting through stuff. So I'll be in and out throughout the day in the Airstream.

Yeah, we don't want you to get a ticket. So whoever's listening You're not living there.

I'm not living there. I've since moved out. The city was just so wonderful. And that's another thing. I mean, we just love this community. We go to the library. I know the librarians. My kids have known the librarians since they're weeks old. We have nothing love for where we live. And so when we decided we're getting divorced, but how is this going to work, neither of us wanted to move. Before I met Ryan, I had owned a home in Orlando. And so the very obvious choice would be for me to have moved back to my old house and get my old job or find something there. I mean, it would be very easy for me to find... I should say it would be easier for me to find work in Orlando. But then, again, just thinking what's in the best interest of our kids. That's more than an hour drive one way. If they want to see their dad or their friends. Again, we have so many friends and so many people we love around us here. It just didn't make sense thinking of their best interest. We wanted to disrupt their lives the least amount as possible.

You're doing great, by the way.

So when you guys were separating, it sounds like there were a few options for living arrangements. It was sell the house. One of you could buy the other out, I presume, or you could share, which is not the most conventional option. Were you guys on the same page with that from day one, or did you want to sell, or he wanted to sell?

No, we both surf. We live three blocks from the beach, and they touched on this a little bit in the article. I mean, we really invested a lot in our garden, in the house that Ryan now owns. We've renovated A lot. I mean, a lot of love has gone into this house and then the adjacent property. And so we just did not want to sell. And even if one of us ended up here, I mean, again, to keep the other one in the nearest proximity just did not make financial sense. And I don't want to ever come off like, I have all the answers. This is a very much experiment for us. We're taking it one day at a time. We definitely still have There are hard moments. Some weeks are much better than others. It is just a lot of communication and being honest with what's working and what's not working. So I definitely don't ever want to seem like, This is it. I know how to do it. This is very much like today it's working situation.

I'll take it. I think everybody is still figuring it out, but don't really think of this as a potential option. So I'm really curious to see how it's actually working with you guys. And I would love to follow the numbers a little bit. So it colors how this all came to be and how this makes sense. When did you guys buy the house and how much was it when you bought it?

Yeah, we were married in 2018, so we bought this house in 2017, and we bought it for 265, I want to say. And now Zillow is estimating it to be... I don't know. Let me look it up. Yeah, Zestimate, it's 583. And then I'm on a different property, and there's a vacant property next to me, and it's just the dirt. There's nothing, no structure there. And that's listed at 4: 40.

You guys own that?

No. I own the one right next to Ryan, which is the... I don't know if I want to see my address on it. That's okay. But I'm directly next to Ryan, and then there's a corner lot next to me. And that corner lot is being listed at 4: 40 something. So my point being that that lot that I'm on is even gone. I mean, it's at least going to be 4: 40, maybe.

So you guys did the math, and what would it be like to rent something in the area?

So because when the city said I couldn't live in the Airstream, I was looking for apartments because we didn't know if I could move back in. And Basically, the one bedroom studio that I really wanted was 1,300 a month. But because I have two children, they were denying me. I didn't qualify for it because they're only allowing two people per bedroom as a contingency. And so the places I was eligible for were at least 1,700 a month. But my current salary situation wouldn't allow me to afford that. And so I was really in this predicament like, well, what really are my options? Because the other thing is you're not just working with owners. You're working through HOAs. A lot of the buildings and the homes, properties in this area are run by HOAs. And so they are much harder to work with the owner what is going to let me that one studio bath place for 1,300, the owner was like, Yeah, just move in. It's great. My children are little. When I was in the Airstream, all three of us were sleeping in a full-size bed. We're fine, like they said. But it just puts things into perspective for what a single family can actually qualify for and what salary they have to be having in order to live here.

It just put things into a big perspective for me.

So thank you, by the way, for being so honest about how you guys are divvying everything up and the ins and outs of your operation and divorce agreement. Did you guys have other shared assets, like a joint bank account or retirement account? How did you handle all of that?

Not really, actually. We were both very independent before we met and got married. Like I mentioned, I had owned my house. I had my own bank account. I had my own retirement. And so we did dip into We dipped into my pension to buy the adjacent property. Also, I received some inheritance in our marriage, which funded a lot of these renovations. So I think in his mind, too, this is a fair route to go because I was a stay-at-home mom for five years, and I had a great career before then. I loved my job. I loved everyone I worked with. We had our son, and the pandemic hit, and it just didn't make sense for us to try to find childcare for me to continue because I was commuting to and from Orlando. So, yeah, we just decided I was going to be a stay-at-home mom. I think, again, just coming back to the bigger picture, when we decided how is this going to look, I think we both did realize we both gave everything we could to our marriage. I mean, not just emotionally, but financially. We both were really... Ryan put a lot of work into the Orlando house, I'm not going to lie.

He totally renovated that. I think if you are to go this route where you do the nesting practice, there is a lot of hard conversations, but it's a lot of honesty, too. It wasn't just so one-sided, because even though Ryan was the primary breadwinner for five years, I was keeping him fed, and I was keeping his laundry clean. I was like, because he's a rocket scientist engineer, and I was like, They should put my name on that rocket, too. You wouldn't be showing up if it wasn't for me. And I think that a lot with all stay-at-home parents. The other one can't be as successful. You can't be as successful without the other.

100 %.

And There's not that monetary value attached to the other side. So one time I tried doing the numbers. If we hired a nanny and a lawn care provider- A housekeeper, a cook. That's value. That's money. And I think things I'm thinking of the stay-at-home parents role in that way really helped me frame like, Okay, this is a contribution for sure. Because I struggled with it at first, having come from a career and always since 16, being very financially stable, independently.

Why isn't your name on the house?

Well, in our settlement, Ryan has this house, and I ended up with the lot. My name, I have the deed for the lot next door. I will build on the lot. Hopefully by March, we submitted our plans to the engineer, so hopefully I'll be submitting permits next week, and we'll get going. I wanted to avoid the hurricane season. But now I'm just really motivated to just get going.

So the plan was basically you guys had two adjacent lots. Your ex-husband took the the one that the house is on, you took the next door one, and you're planning to build a house so you guys will always live next door to each other, it sounds like.

We say always, but it's really, again, for the benefit of my kids, once my kids are 18, nothing's permanent when you have children. Every year is so different. And so I think in these early years, when they're young, even throughout school, but the way I'm designing my house, and We talked about it. I love to travel. I lived in Italy for a while. I'm originally from Minnesota. I'm ready to go. As soon as my kids are old enough to go on adventures.

Once you decided that you were going to share this home and do a nesting thing and do a different schedule every week, it sounds like, were there some ground rules that you guys set up to try to make this arrangement work?

Yeah, a hundred 100 %. We both agreed, we're not going to bring guests around here, romantic guests for at least a year.

Have you guys started dating again?

No. We just even talked about it last night. We have a family dinner once a week, which I like. It's really nice for the kids, and we'll try to hang out at least once a week. If it's not a family dinner, we'll try to do something, a bike ride. But no, I think he was saying last night, it's so early, and I agree. It's all just hitting us, where it just happened. I mean, it was in April, but it's October now. It still feels very different. And I think because I'm still in the house so often, it just... I don't know. It's not like a clear of a cut break. And again, I need the kitchen. I need the laundry. And if there was another option for me, I think we would both be open to me finding an apartment for a year while I complete my build. Financially, that just doesn't make sense because I have these funds allocated for my build. If I start spending that on rent, it just doesn't add up. So I'm just hanging tight.

It sounds like you guys are cool with each other.

Yeah, we do. We get along really well. I'll speak for myself. Again, we do have our hard moments. Something happened last week. I'm trying to remember what it was. Oh, we had a birthday party for my son, and that was always just... We're always stressed out when we're hosting things and I'm cooking four cakes and 18 cupcakes. Those moments are always heightened. But we get through it. Again, I just want to emphasize this point. I don't know if this is the best way for every family. I don't even know if it's the best way for my family. We're trying to figure that out. So far, we're getting through it. And so far, those hard moments we can handle. Ryan and I both can up. And so if we just give space sometimes and then come back to it, it's always better for us.

It sounds like, yeah, the big picture is that this makes the most sense for you guys in the long term financially. And there are a lot of potential growing pains and some things to work out. But overall, this is the right financial decision for you and your kids.

Yeah. Yes, I would say that.

How do you guys divide expenses now? Utilities, things that you're buying for the kids, property taxes?

Yeah, I'm paying the property taxes on my lot. Utilities, I pay him a certain amount every month. Their school, my daughter is four. She didn't qualify for kindergarten, so she's in this BPK program, and my son is a kindergarten, but we're choosing to put them into a school for three days of the week. It's like a hybrid homeschool program. Anyway, it's not public school. So there's a cost to that, and we split that evenly. Groceries, we both contribute. I go to the grocery store a few times a week. He does, too. And we just share everything in there. That hasn't changed.

Do you share a car?

No. I have my own car that's paid off, and he has his car that's paid off. Yeah. It was very easy because he also has a house he inherited from his dad. So when we did the settlement, it was really just straight down the line. I had my Orlando house and the lot, and he had his Dayton house and our family's home. It was just us deciding that together. Then we found a peaceful mediator who just formed it all up. We had the judge sign everything, and then it was done. I mean, it was like the fastest divorce everybody tells us. But it was a lot of us deciding what we wanted and how we wanted it to look and what the holidays would look like. That's something that we could just figure out on our own, which I know isn't the case for a lot of other situations. But again, if you can do it, that is also a cost-saving. That whole process cost us $4,000, and we split that evenly. I know some divorces can get a lot more expensive, and some are, I will say, and some are cheaper. I mean, you can file your divorce independently and just take it to the court.

I know people who do that, and We just didn't have the time. We just are so... I feel like I'm taking it. I wouldn't have had the capacity to do that.

Yeah, we've had a show on how to save on divorce. I mean, oftentimes, the lawyers really win at the end of all this, and it sounds like you guys were amicable enough to work it out and really think about what's best big picture for you guys financially and not let emotions get in the way, which is so admirable. What did people around you think about all this? Were people confused? Were they supportive? Were they judgy?

Some people have done very similar things. For a lot of people, this isn't ground-breaking. A lot of families live like this, and they were very supportive and understanding. If you lived through it or even if you have kids, I feel like there's a lot of understanding there just from the situation of having your own kids. There have been other judgments of this is crazy. I think the worst was, I had this lady be like, Well, love heals everything. And I was just like, Oh, does it? Those comments really kill. But I think it's a mixed bag. And at the end of the day, it doesn't... The society's perception of this This is how the Wall Street Journal found me is because I was in these groups on Facebook, support groups for separated and divorced parents. And this woman was writing, I want to do this. It feels like the right step for us, but I'm getting a lot of pushback from almost everybody in my life. And so I chimed in and said, Do it. I'm doing it. It's working for us. You're not crazy. I think a lot of that fear of going this route is the society IDth perception or, oh, man, and reading the comments on the Wall Street Journal when it published, I was like, I can't.

Oh, sister. No, I just turned it off.

Those are rough.

The things they were saying about both of us, and I wanted to pipe in like, He's a great dad. But that's the hard part, and you just have to bring it back to what's the best for your family. There is a financial gain, 100 %. But the fact that I think our kids, if you ask them, What does divorce mean? They'd be like, Well, my parents don't sleep together. I don't think they're fazed by anything else. They don't have to move between cities. They don't have to even go down a different block. Their lives have literally just not changed at all, despite us not going to bed together and waking up together. But even some mornings, they do because I'll be in here before everyone gets up. Everyone in my family sleeps in except me. And so they wake up and I'm in the kitchen. It's like, nothing's changed. And I think that's our vision, too, especially for big moments, birthdays, holidays. We envision us being together as a family for those moments for our kids.

And knowing what you know now, what would you tell someone who's thinking about keeping a property with their ex? Because the interest rate thing is definitely real. We hear about this for families or individuals. Your situation is really unique, but there's this inertia with giving up low interest rates.

Well, just to also clarify one thing, Ryan has a property, and I have a property. So in one year, we might not be seeing each other as much. Today, we are because we're sharing this. I'm living in here. So for For me, I think a huge differentiator between others who are actually sharing one single property, that is it. Because I know at the end of the day, I'm going to have my own house in my own yard. This is very temporary, and that's a saving grace. But for now, I can speak to living together in this house, and I would say, you really have to ask yourself, can you communicate on a level-headed way? Because again, you're modeling everything for your It's like, your kids are, at least my kids are always around. If we have a disagreement, we both have to understand how we're going to get through that disagreement that isn't going to traumatize our children. I think that is a really big thing you have to be honest with. Can you both handle that? Because if you can't, it might not be the best solution for you because there will be hard moments in this arrangement.

It's just inevitable. How do you communicate? How can you handle yourself? When things are heated, when it's hard, finances or things like you were talking about, how do you divvy up groceries? Because, again, I don't think he'd mind sharing, but when I make coffee, I spill the coffee grounds everywhere. It drives him crazy. And that's always been a thing. And so can we really tolerate these things that we know are going to irritate us? But if you can Also, I have so many Excel sheets on finances and what I need to be out of this situation. And so does that make sense? I think knowing that this is temporary is very helpful for me to deal with it every day. I would suggest, too, for couples who are doing this, just telling yourself, This is temporary. This is the best for your children. Have some sound bite or something to come back to you that's reassuring you because when it gets hard, you're going to want You're going to have to stay strong somehow. And that's what works for me.

Yeah. When, not if, for sure. Would you have done anything differently in terms of getting a prenup or a postnup or putting the house in both of your guys' name?

Well, we did, actually. We had it in both of our names for a while. We had both of our names on this house and the property and my Orlando house. And so I just took care of my Orlando house, and then I had my kids. And so I just handed all the financial stuff over to him when I had the kids because I was barely hanging on. But that's why I don't know. But my name was on it. And so we, again, we sat down and divvied everything out and said how it's going to look. And then we did the quick clean deeds. Ryan, he's a really good person and a great father. And so working this out wasn't a challenge. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Not everybody can be a Ryan, for sure. So would you tell other people to maybe spell it out beforehand or do a prenup or post-nup?

Yeah, or have some plan. I mean, we never sold my Orlando house. I never wanted to sell that house. And I wonder if, in a way, I did that because... I don't know. I really don't know. I mean, I always thought it was going to increase in value and I was going to leave it for my kids. But if I didn't have that, and I don't know how it would have worked out if he refused to get his name off that mortgage or something like that, it would have been much messier of divorce, that's for sure.

You mentioned you had a career before in Orlando at a hospital. You left to be this stay at home mom, and now you work at a boutique, right? And you also babysit.

Yeah.

Before the divorce, were you planning on going back to work?

I didn't know, actually. Ryan was making fun of me the other day. I'm very much one a day at a time a person. And so I have these visions of what I want to create in my life and where I want to be, but just taking it a day at a time of how it's going to get there. And I thought I would be more fulfilled as a stay at home mom than I was. I don't want to say it's my fault, but I did think that it would be a better fit for me than it actually was. I definitely struggled and started thinking. I always wanted to create my own things. With the two little kids, it was becoming more and more challenging. Now that I'm working again, I love it. I feel much better. I feel like my my old self. I think that's hard because you don't really know. You think you're going to be happy going one way, and then when you're not as much, it's challenging to pivot for the other person, I think.

What surprised you about that? What do you think it was that made you feel unfulfilled?

No, it's a good question. I feel passionate working with other people. I'm very project-oriented, and so I like being involved effective change. I was involved in my old previous job. We were transforming healthcare delivery models. When there are so many problems around us, and you can design a world that is just so much more effective for all of the stakeholders involved. That's exciting to me. That brings me energy. I love having my kids. You can apply it to any industry. I was in health care, but look around, look at all the problems that everybody faces every day. There's just an endless amount of opportunities. And so when you can co-create a new way with invested individuals, that lights my fire. And being with my children, of course, lights my fire, too. I love being with my kids. I think it's just a balanced... I put all the eggs in that basket. And so I was doing my best to... I have a surf group. I started surfing bitches. It's a parents' surf group, and we take turns watching each other's. It's like, I was starting to find other ways that I could create things in the community that would be beneficial.

But it's still just, I just felt like I could do more. I can be doing more. Time is so limited in our life, and I think that was starting to drive me more back into, I want to get back involved in the work field. My And I think also them growing up, they're less reliant on me. They want to be with their friends. And they're still little kids, but they just... My daughter loves going to school. She loves learning. That is now their phase, their stage in their life. And so for me, I'm ready to also go back to what my passions were and to get more involved in supporting myself. But again, you just can't predict that. I thought it would be... I feel differently, and I just was wrong.

So it was the divorce, but also your own feelings. It was right around the same time. It just made sense for you.

Yeah. Yeah. A hundred %.

Was there anything else about the financial side of divorce that has surprised you so far?

Not really. Again, I was prepared because I was geeking out on these Excel sheets. Okay, well, if I can find a car insurance for this amount, then my overall monthly income that I would need to survive would be this. And what if I tweaked my home insurance this way? So I was just having fun. So I really am not surprised moving forward with the jobs I have and what I'm working. And There haven't been any surprises yet. I have emergency funds built in and everything like that. So, I'm praying to God, there is an emergency, but even then, I feel like I'd be okay. But Again, coming back to looking for the apartment, that was surprising to me that there was just absolutely no flex from these HOAs when I needed a place to live. I just imagine, well, what if I didn't have this option of moving back in with Ryan? Then I would have to go to another city or I don't know. But then I'd be dipping into my build fund. And so that whole plan would change. It just really made me sad for a lot of the families living around here, how challenging that process is.

And people, it's not like an instant. It's not like we're texting and these landlords are getting back to you. I mean, it's days. And you have to apply a lot of heavy applications and background checks. Some ask for fees. I mean, the process is treacherous, in my opinion. I just thought, Oh, my gosh, how do families do this? How do single moms do this? They can't, or they're going to work here and then live 30 miles away, and then that's an expense. So that was a surprise for me.

Well, Morgan, you've I'm going to have so much insight. So appreciate how open you've been about this. We end our episodes by asking all of our guests for a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. Is there a final piece of money advice that would give someone separating from their spouse?

Craft an Excel sheet.

What's in there?

Like your basic funds needed. Gosh, I could pull it up. How do I do it? I have my home insurance, my car insurance. I don't have health insurance, which is hilarious coming from health care. No? I don't. That is something I just couldn't do this year. But my kids do. My kids are under Rinds, so that's good.

And there was no It's an option for you guys to technically stay married so that you could have health care and the rest of it, but...

No, no. And I understand, and it's all right. But one day I will, and I do have dental insurance, so that's good. Yeah, water, electric, internet, phone, car insurance, mortgage, childcare, house insurance. I have a food category, and then a miscellaneous. So I know what I need to survive every month and then to just find ways to meet that number. Know that before you start entering separation. I don't want to say it because every situation is so different for everybody. I don't know. This is what worked for me, what I'll say.

Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan LaVoy. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your moneyquestions, moneyrehab@moneynewsnetwork. Com, to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.