Transcript of Broke, Bullied, and Then... Christina Aguilera Called: Hollywood Hair Stylist Chris Appleton’s Story

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I'm Nicole Lappen, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money re-how.

Chris Appleton is the hair wizard in Hollywood.

He's worked with Kim Kardashian, Ariana Grande, Jennifer Lopez, Christina Aguilera, Chris Jenner. The list truly goes on and He has built such an incredible celebrity client list, but he comes from nothing. Working hard wasn't the only thing to help him reach the top. It was also accepting his identity. In his 20s, Chris came out as gay, and at the time, he had been in a relationship with a woman for years, and they had two kids together. This was a really difficult time in his life, and I should say that this conversation includes discussion of suicidal ideology, so please take care while listening. Also, you can find resources in the show notes if you or a loved one needs help. But Chris worked through that painful chapter in his life, and today, he shares the lessons that he took from that time. In this conversation, we talk about how identity intersects with success, the stories behind some of his most iconic work, and how he's worked through his own imposter syndrome. Chris Appleton, welcome to Money Rehab.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for being here. So I'm not a Kardashian person. I've never watched an episode. I know I'm the only person on the whole planet. Me neither.

I only ever watched one.

But I dug into your book, Big Fan, Your Roots Don't Define I discovered that you grew up Jehovah's Witness.

Oh, my God. I did not expect you to ask me that. It's so funny because you don't write this book, and then people keep asking me questions. Eventually, they're like, Did I say that? I wrote it so long ago, actually only last year. But honestly, anything I do last week I forgot about.

I bring it up because, actually, there's some connection. My father actually invented a bloodless surgery that reached out to a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses. We had so many Jehovah's Witnesses.

Bab. To the area. I think what you'll find in the book is a lot about me that you didn't know. Who am I to tell anyone anything about my life when people probably only know me as working with celebrities, having an image on social media which looks quite polished and put together, hopefully. I don't know, that's what I tried to create. Without me just being really raw and saying, Okay, you've seen this side of me, which is a very small part of who I am, but this is the real behind the scenes of it all. I talk about some of the darkest moments in my life. I talk about some of the hardest times. I talk about my comeback, and I talk about how I redefined my roots and where I came from. Because I come from a very humble beginning. We were very poor growing up in middle England. My parents had a lot of trauma passed on to them. My mom was 10 when her mom and dad got murdered. She didn't even get told. They read it on the front of a newspaper. My dad got put in a home at the age of five, and they basically went through their traumas.

Some of that is inevitably going to be passed down through generations. One of the big points in my life where a lot changed for me was when I first got my hands on hair. Because prior to that, I was told When I was old at school I was pretty... Well, really, it was stupid because I was dyslexic. I'm dyslexic, and now we understand a lot more about that. Back then, if you didn't learn in a very black and white way, you were stupid or lazy. I think I was fighting a lot of demons around that and also being labeled as gay because I did hair at a young age. I got a job and I really love doing hair. I think finding hair was something that was the first time I ever felt good at something. I was like, Oh, wow, I'm really good at this. I get to make people look and feel great. The first person I started with was my mom. I wanted to make her look glamorous. I'd do her hair and try and make her look like some Hollywood star because it was very far from what we were and what we had.

When she looked in the mirror, I realized she changed a little. She didn't recognize that woman that was a mom of five kids. She saw something different. I think that was so powerful to me. I was like, Oh, wow, you get to meet people really feel. I love that. It was like a superpower. So then I just really got focused on trying to be the best at it. Because I think for a long time, I was trying to prove, I guess, to everyone else that I was enough. I wasn't stupid, I wasn't gay. I didn't want to be these labels. But in doing that, I abandoned myself. And I became very good at making other people look at themselves because I did it for a craft as a job, making people look in the mirror, see themselves, be a better version, help bringing that out in them. But I didn't realize I wasn't actually looking at myself. I was very avoiding about where where I come from because I guess I'd been told, like I said, it was wrong, and I was ashamed of that. So for a long time, I managed to get away with that until I was 26, which is when I came out, my whole life changed.

And that was even more brutal because being avoidant for that is a long time, and you have a lot of catching up to do and a lot of understanding. And if you're the type of person I am, is I like to understand. I like to understand why we do the things we do, why we make the mistakes we make, and how we can be a better version from that. And a lot of that is in the book because when you have both and when you have alignment is really when the magic happens, in my experience.

But for that magic to happen, you do really literally have to go back to your roots.

Oh, yeah. It's brutal. Sometimes doing that work is hard.

I'm sure. A lot of the trauma that you talk about, probably extends to financial trauma as well. Can you pull the thread for me to where money trauma came up for you as a kid? You guys didn't have a lot of money. Were you shielded from that or was it stressful?

No, it's what I knew. So, yeah, we were really poor. I mean, I used to share a bedroom with my two brothers. We didn't really have any food in the cupboards. If we did, it was gone within five minutes. We were a big family of five, and my mom and dad did the best we could. I think maybe not having money as a kid or anything, really. I literally used to work in a salon at the age of 13. I got paid £10 for the day. I think it was £1 an hour. It was like $1 an hour. I'd be scrubbing skirting boards. It wasn't like we were blowing out hair and doing glamorous things. We were scrubbing skirting boards, making tea and coffee, cleaning toilets. But I used to save my money and I would make it count because I wanted to get myself to a better place. I wanted to get myself out of what I experienced as a child, which was really poor. It was very brutal. I think that's always motivated me to be better, to push harder, to work harder. With age, I've also learned balance because I think such a long time and such a big part of my life, I was so hard on myself and always pushing, and nothing was good enough.

I was always like that voice inside your head, that hater, and I speak about this in the book, where we put ourselves down. I say it's a mean girl. Yeah, you call it the mean guy, I call it the hater, where a lot of the time I see that happen, and most people might be able to relate to this when they go into a hair salon and they sit in the chair and you think, Oh, my God, I look tired. Why is this eye go down like that. These wrinkles, they weren't there. But, Oh, my God, I've got gray. Am I going bold? All this shit, we start talking to ourselves. The hater inside that voice can be really loud and really apparent. But I think what I've learned to do is I find balance with that voice. I think I used to use it as motivation, whereas now I think I use it as... It's always going to be there. That hater is always there. It's always going to be there. It's not as though it ever disappears, but you learn techniques. Like I said, people find this in the book to basically silence it.

If it's usually at a level 10, it will maybe be at a level 2, and not for so long, and you can come back to yourself and you're like, I'm doing that thing. It's not healthy. One of the biggest realizations I ever had, and it's really powerful, was actually seeing the child in me. As adult Chris, I was doing this therapy session and my therapist was like, I want you to talk to him. And I was like, Oh, fuck. I didn't really believe in. I was like, Who are we go. I was like, All right, I'm going to talk to this kid. I'm going to close my eyes. And he's like, You know what? Do you think he needed to hear? And I was like, I just remember feeling. I remember thinking, I think he just wanted to know it was going to be okay. Why don't you tell him that? Coming back to myself, I was like, Oh, my God, I've been so mean to myself. That voice has been so loud. That inner hater has been so loud my whole life. It was a real moment where I was understanding you can be abusive to yourself and to learn to be kind.

I would never speak to another child like that. I wouldn't speak to my children. I wouldn't speak to anyone like that. But you speak to yourself like that. A lot of people do that. A lot of people Are you fat? You're fat, you're ugly, or you're not good enough. We constantly do it to ourselves. But I learned a technique to come back to myself and just remember that little kid who is inside and it's a part of you. Whereas I think for a long time, what I did is I detached myself from that. I detached myself from the past because I didn't want to be it. Whereas now I use it as motivation. It's all me. All those versions were me. I think that's what makes you whole. That's where I found alignment because alignment externally is one thing, but getting aligned on the inside was the real healing part for me where everything together.

Yeah, you wouldn't be who you are today without those versions.

Definitely. It doesn't mean you have it all figured out. It just means that you find techniques to be able to come back to yourself when you do lose it for a minute. You can come back and it just doesn't last as long.

What is the hater saying these days? Is there a greatest hit?

Every now and again, I'll look at them around and I'll be like, Oh, God, I got Greg coming through. It's fucking old shit. I remember thinking, when you have gray coming through, I remember my brother having it. I was like, Oh, he's got really old. I remember looking at them around, I'm like, What It's great. I'm really old. But now I'm like, Oh, yeah. It does mean I'm older, but actually it also means I'm a little wiser. I'm financially in a better position. I'm secure in who I am as a person. And I think it shows I've lived. And I actually think the salt and pepper look can be quite hot on guys. So I just change the narrative. I change the narrative. For a minute, I'll still be like, Oh, you're all fucked with a great. And then I'm like, Well, am I actually? I think it's hot. And I'll just change the narrative a little bit. And if you do that often enough, you start to believe it. Whereas the easy thing to do is just to keep talking badly to yourself. You don't even know you're doing it. And that's what I've done for a career, is I've helped people look at those things in the mirror that they see or the limitations they have, and I've helped them redefine them and re-direct them.

I just didn't do it to myself. I found it so much easier to do it to other people than to actually look in the mirror and do it myself.

Has there ever been a financial or money hater?

Yeah, of course. I think the poor boy in Simon is always Even now, I'll be buying stuff, and I'm like, we went shopping the other day, and I was with my assistant, I'm buying some Christmas shopping, and I'm going back to the UK, it's going to be a really nice Christmas, and I'm buying some stuff, and I'm saying to my assistant, Delaney, I'm like, Should I have brought that? I'm being a bit excessive. Do you think I really need that? I'm like, I could take it back and I could get a couple of things. I'm doing this thing I used to always do as a kid. I'm like, I can afford it. It's okay. I can get that and it's all right. I don't think it ever leaves you. I like that it doesn't... Because I'm very grateful to be in the position I'm in. I'm very grateful to be able to support my family. I still work really hard for that. I've had a job since I'm 13. I would hope at 42, I can. But I don't think it ever leaves you. It's always there. I think it's always there, that poor boy inside.

Do I even see in my parents, I see them, they would never order room service if they went to a hotel or they'd never touch the minibar. They'd come to LA. I tell you what, They would fly from here to Switzerland, Switzerland to Paris. They'd probably go back. Then from Paris, they would go all over to here. It was even days. I'm like, Guys, what flight did you book? It was the cheapest one possible. Because their whole life, they've spent scrimping and scraping and making ends meet. A great joy I have now is they've always put their kids first, and they always will. I'm trying to educate them like, Guys, you have to look after yourself. We're good now. We're all adults. We're all grown up. You gather all your years. It's time for us to support you. I want them to have quality in their life and some nice things. I have to walk to Timbuk, too, because they don't want to get anybody. Guys, it's all right. But I know I see them stopping. They're like, All right, okay, we can do this. But there's always this guilt because when you've always struggled for money, it never really leaves you.

Are there other money lessons that you had to unlear? Because to your point, when you're growing up, you don't really have the perspective. But now that you do...

I've always been a real saver. I always felt like I wasn't good at saving, but my business manager said that they have never seen anyone save like I save. I think there's the Brit inside me that always loves a good deal. I don't know why. In England, it's this culture where it's like, Oh, come on, mate, do me a better deal. How much for cash? You know, it's just going to wheelie-dealy attitude. Yeah, maybe a little bit. But it's more like cheeky. It's my cheeky banter because LA is expensive. You go to Air One, you can spend a whole month wage on a smoothie. You know what I mean? It's not cheap. Imagine doing your weekly shop there. It's insane. You can spend. It's shocking. You can buy a strawberry. One strawberry, I think it was $20 at one point.

It can be a lot. You had a smoothie.

You remember I had one? That was really cute. That was one of those moments where I was like, Yes, made it. Made it. Yeah, one smoothie. It was really fun, actually, to be recognized in hair and to be recognized in my craft and then put it into a smoothie. That was great. It was really, really fun. Just a nice little Those moments where you think, wow. I had a call actually from Madonna's team recently. Like, Oh, Madonna is really looking forward to working with Chris. I remember thinking, How does Madonna know who I am? Because as a kid, she was such an inspiration to me. She was the only one at the time doing... Every album was something different, and she had such a vibe. She did music, Cowboy Boots were a thing. She would just really stick to that era. At the time, I'd say she was the only one that was reinventing herself so much. She was always such a big inspiration. I remember being a 15-year-old, and I cut out this thing from a newspaper, and we went on a bus. I took my mom, we went on a bus to Paris.

We went on a ferry, and we went to queue up for hours. I remember watching her show. I remember going back to that 15-year-old kid, and I was like, Wow, if he had known that one day he should be asking for me to do it, or even just know who I am in the realms of whatever. And it was a real moment where you're like, Wow. So cool. And when you really put something out there and a goal and you work towards it... Mind you, this is literally 30 years later.

Yeah, it's like overnight success, 30 years in the making.

People go, Oh, how are you successful? I'm like, Guys, not really. I had a job since I was 13. I've like, yes, I recognize that, and I'm very grateful to be in the position I am, but it's not been through any ease knowing a certain person. When I first moved to LA, it's like, Oh, he's doing well because he's British. It's because he's tall. It's because he's got a big personality. People were quick to just use any old bloody thing of why I was doing well. The why I was doing well is because I'd fucking spent 30 years of my life learning my craft. I used to I was obsessed with learning. I even had a color degree. I got a degree in color. You know where you wear the hat and stuff, and no one even knows you could get a degree in color. I didn't know. I learned so much about my craft, and if there's something I didn't know, I would go down. I remember I was in New York once. I got a book to do a cover of a magazine. They wanted braids. I didn't know how to braid hair.

I went to Harlem and I went into the shops and I was like, Guys, can you help me? The braid shops, can I pay you to teach me how to braid? I practice on my doll's head. I would never take anything for granted. I just wanted to be good enough. That was what I really wanted. I just wanted to be good enough. That was what I really wanted. I just wanted to be good enough. And really, all along, I wish I could have told myself that I was good enough.

It's work in progress. It's progress, not perfection. You started working at 13. You left school School at 16, right? And then you started taking free jobs around London to get more experience.

Well, I was working in Leicester, so I got qualified. And then I worked my way up in the salon on the price level. I was like, I want to be at the top of the price level. I want to go for all the price levels I wasn't be at the top. And then I got my own price level. And then I was like, What else is there? And then I was like, Oh, there's London. Because I was from a small town of Leicester, and I was like, London, they do photo shoots. I was like, Oh, maybe I could do editorial stuff. And I remember the editorial world was very Oh, you're a salon hair stylist. You're not cool. You need to stay in your lane. You're always putting to boxes. Every stage from my life, people love to put you in a box. I'd go around with my portfolio. I couldn't even afford the train. I used to hide from the train conductor because it was a two-hour journey into London. Then I'd take my little portfolio in and then go, Okay, thank you. Then go to the next one. Okay, thank you. Then once I got a call back and I'm like, Oh, we want you to assist this hair stylist.

I'm like, Yes. Oh, my God. Do you think I would win the last? I was like, Oh, my God, great. Because that's like a sponge. I was so excited to watch. If someone was good at something, I wanted to know why. I was like, Why are they good at this? Why are they a head leader at a fashion show? Is it the way they talk? How do they compose themselves? How are they treating other people? How does their team work? How do they run their team? I was just like a sponge absorbing all the information. I'd be passing up pins to someone, but I was watching and I was taking everything in. I was watching the dynamic. I watched how people interacted with each other. Then I'd go to the next thing. Then I had some lucky breaks. I wanted a TV show in the UK. It was like the Great British Break Off, but off hair. Everything was just like a leapboard. Nothing was huge. Nothing was like, Oh, you've made it. Everything was like, you had to really make the most of each moment and use it as a leapfrog. There were still so many nos.

So many times I fell flat on my face. I'd get an agent, and then I remember saying, I really want to do the cover of Vogue one day. That's my goal. They They laughed at me and they were like, You'll never do the cover of Vogue. You're like a salon hair stylist. They were like, You got to keep it real, Chris. Don't let your ego go ahead of you. I'm like, Oh, okay. They booked me a job for a flip-flop campaign. I was doing a ponieset. I remember thinking, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep going. Now I've done the cover of American Vogue, British Vogue, with some of the most famous women in the world. I've done international Vogues. If I'd have listened to what other people had told me, I wouldn't have done any of this. I wouldn't have even come to America. I think my journey was just It just kept going. I just kept pushing. I'd get a no, I'd fall back down, pick myself back up and get out there. I fall back down, pick myself up, get back out there. I've always just tried to be motivated by it.

Well, I imagine it to be very hard to hide from a conductor at 6: 03, but you did it, and London is so expensive.

I'd be like, Sorry, so you were saying... I was like, Oh, no, I don't... I've been doing some accent. It's like, You're here. I saw you. I'm like, Oh, sorry, I don't know. I'd put glasses on. I'd be like, I don't know. I'm going. He's like, No, you need to pay. And I'll be like, I don't talk English. I don't know. I was like, literally, you probably think I was an insane person. And I'd be like, trying to run down the train, avoid this bloody train manager. And then he'd get me on the platform Mom. I'm like, I've got no money and I can't afford it. But I just had a passion. I just loved it. And where there was... I used to get the bus. The bus was three hours. The bus was even longer, and that was painful.

Well, I was going to ask you, what's the most unhinged thing you did during time to save money in an expensive city? But maybe that's it.

It was interesting because, cut fast forward, there's a lot that happened in between. But eventually, I started to work with celebrity. I did some fashion show stuff, started working with different makeup artists, then started to do a few magazines. Not great magazines, just like weekend newspaper magazines. I worked with a makeup artist that worked with a celebrity, Rita Aura. She's like, Oh, she's looking for a new hair stylist. She recommended me. I ended up working with Rita for two years. That was my first celebrity. That was the beginning of social media. Social media, I started to post my work on Instagram, and I was very naive to knowing that people looked at it, the people that followed you, like my mom and dad, and my mom always wrote a nice comment. But then I remember one day I got a call from Jalo's team. It was an email, and I ignored it because I was like, Well, what else are you going to do? This is bullshit. Who's not Jalo?

Did you think it was spam?

Of course it did. If you got an email from Jalo, wouldn't you think it was a spam? Do you know what I mean? It's like, Hey, you've won a million dollars. I remember being at the phone box ringing back for the million I think it cost me 500,000 in coins trying to call through. It was like, they're always frauds, all these fraudulent things. So I was thinking, Oh, that's stupid. And then I got another one. And again, it was that moment. I was like, How does Jailo know who I am? I'm just Chris. I'm just Chris from Leicester. He was just doing my thing. And so I responded. I was like, I actually couldn't do it because I wasn't available. And I remember thinking, You know what?

What do you mean you weren't available for JLo?

Because I was with Rita at the time and We were doing the X Factor, and I think they wanted it that weekend or something. I wasn't even in LA. They weren't going to fly me there. I had to get my... I think they thought I was a local or whatever. So I was like... It just was impossible. I was like, Maybe I need to make the move. Maybe that could be the It was the next thing. Because Hollywood was always the thing I used to do in my mum's hair. It was what inspired me. I was like, Maybe I could go to Hollywood. Maybe I could do this. I moved to Hollywood, and for the first three months, I didn't do anything. It didn't work. I ran out of money. I'm a father of two by that point. I remember I got a call to do Christina Aguilera's hair on The Voice, and I was really excited about it, but then paralyzed with fear. I was on the way to do a hair for The Voice, and I remember saying to the mother of my kids, Kate, who are still best friends, and I was just like, I'm so scared.

I just am terrified. I can't do this. Who the fuck did they think I am? I completely had imposter syndrome. I was like, Who do I think I am? What am I playing at? This is crazy. This is the big stuff. This is Hollywood. I would. This is what I used to look at when I was a kid. I'm not worthy of this. I remember her saying, Look, if you don't make this work, Chris, you're going to have to come home. I'd spent my money. La was so expensive. I had two kids' support. I went to The Voice and I thought, I'm going to do this. I'm going to be great. So there was three hours for glam, and the make-up artist went in and left me waiting outside. An hour went by and I still wasn't invited in. I was thinking, Oh, well, maybe she's got someone else to do her hair. She just wants some finishing touches. Another hour went by and I'm like, Well, it's really not a lot of time. So maybe this is just all a mistake. It's probably a mistake. I think it was a mistake. I think I should go home.

I think I should be here. Then I remember the last 20 minutes before the live show, they were like, Oh, you can go in now. I went in and she's like, What do you want to do? I was like, I want to have three hours of glam. But in my head, I'm like, Oh, well. The hair was ready to be done. I had all these wigs prepped, had all these pieces, and I thought, that would be a really quick way to change the look up, do something fun. The blonde, the wig was a bit cooler in color, wasn't as warm as what she was using. She's like, Oh, I don't like wigs. I was like, Oh, yeah, why would you like wigs? I thought, Why would you like anything I got to do, really? I was like, She can see me. I felt like little Chris. I felt like the little boy standing at the window, and I felt like I was him standing in front of her, and she's just looking at me like I'm like, I'm a loser. Not that she was, but I felt that, that my fear. Yeah, your painter was loud.

And fear was coming through my body. When it paralyzed me, you're like, Oh, my God. I felt like my arms couldn't move. I just felt like I froze. And When I had this very distinct moment, and it was a really big moment in my career, where it felt like the clouds parted. And it was this moment where I remember Kate's voice, and she was like, If you don't make this work, you're going to have to go home. And I remember thinking to I didn't come this far to come this far. I know what I'm doing. If she doesn't like what I'm going to do, that's okay. If she doesn't like what I've got to do, that's okay. It's just not a match. But if I don't do me and do what I'm good at, I will always kick myself. If I don't show her what I can do, I'll always kick myself. I miss that opportunity. I got one of the wigs out of the bag and I put it on her head. Let's just try it because you've never seen one of mine. Let's just see what it looks like. She was like, Oh.

I was good at wigs because I'd worked with cancer patients in the salon. I got really good at tailoring them, doing a little root. Wigs have come on so far, but back then, they still weren't all up to date with the routing and the plucking of the hairline. Anyway, I did all that because of these cancer patients that I worked with. She was like, Oh, wow. The stylist was like, Oh, I like it. I put it on her head and off she went. She went on live on the show, and everything's myself like, Oh, my God, I hope it looks good. I was watching the screen, I was taking little sneaky pictures. I'd send it to Kate, I'm like, Is she thinking it looks good? I'm like, Yeah, I think it I don't know. I think it was good. Then I remember she came off set and she was talking to the other judges and she looked over and she went, Everyone likes your wig, and then carried on talking. In that moment, I knew I'd done it. I was like, Oh, I did it. I worked with her for a few years after and that was the beginning of everyone then recognized her hair and we did these hoops in her hair and it became a thing.

And then I started working with Ariana and the lavender hair. It just snowballed. But in that defining moment, it could have been very different because if I had to get into that fear that literally was consuming my whole body. I wouldn't be here now when I wrote the book, and I wouldn't be in LA.

As that professional career was exploding, your personal life, two kids, at 26, you came out during a difficult transition period in your life. Somebody's going through something like that, what would you say to them?

The best thing you can do is start. Just start by recognizing that there's something that you want to change, something that maybe doesn't make you happy. You keep getting yourself into the same patterns of relationships. You get the same outcome that you don't like. Even if you look in the mirror and think, Is this it? Is this enough? Is this what I want? The lowest moments of my life Where I have made that come back, I didn't know what the next day, I didn't know what the next minute was going to be like, but I surrender in that moment and just knew that I wanted to change something. I think to anyone listening that is in a situation that they feel lost in or unsure of or want to change, it's just about, first of all, looking and acknowledging that. And like, this, I want to change. I want to create something different. I want to change this pattern. And just starting there is the first place. Because so many people say, I want to change, but I don't even know how to start. And just start at start. You don't have to get to end.

You don't have to get to the middle. There's no rushing through it. Because doing the work is hard. You have to really face some... You have to really look at yourself. You have to really look at the mirror, all the bits that you don't like. In fluorescent light. Yeah, you really do. It's a real magnifying glass. And that's why a lot of people, I think, struggle in relationships because it's basically a mirror. That other person tends to be a mirror to you. And I think that's why a lot of people can struggle in relationships because it makes them look at themselves. And if you're not comfortable doing that, it's never going to work. You got to be comfortable with yourself before you can get involved in something else. You got to be aligned with who you are, know who you are, what's important to you, and grow with someone. But you shouldn't be fully unaware of those things because I think that's a dangerous thing to get into.

Do you think that once you align with who you really are, your true identity, that unlocked even greater success?

Oh, God. Yeah. I just wouldn't... I don't even think I'd be alive if I hadn't found alignment. If I hadn't found myself and come back to myself, I don't think I'd even be here. It wouldn't be about having money or having a career or having success, it would not be alive. That's how far I went with trying to not be authentic, not be who I was, be defined by my past, be the things people told me I should be. But I started one day at the age of 26, after I did try and take my life and I didn't die. The next option was to surrender and stop fighting. I didn't even know I was fighting so hard until I stopped, until I just let go. I felt physically, I remember feeling it in my body, I felt like my shoulders went down and I let go. It wasn't a big moment. It wasn't loud. It was very quiet. But I just thought, I can't hate myself anymore. I couldn't try and be something else anymore. So what about if I just stop? What about if I just start here? And in surrendering and just starting there, a lot changed.

I didn't know what was going to happen next. I didn't know what was going to happen the next day. But I had that moment right then. I had that, and that was enough. It was enough to say, This is who I am, acknowledging my past, where I'd come from, seeing that, sitting with it, but deciding I wanted to make a change for the rest. The rest of the years ahead, I wanted to make a difference.

Who helped you during that time?

My family has always been great, but I think there's so much you want to protect people from. With family, I think you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. It's not anyone's fault, but... Circumstances. Everyone does the best. Even as I'm a dad now, even as a dad now, I know I've done things that my kids, it will affect them and they will need to do work on. It's not as though everything was bad intention. It's just like we all grow through life learning the lessons we learn, and we do our best to pass them on to our kids. Sometimes we don't pass on the right information. I think I felt like it was a personal journey. Also, I didn't really have anyone to look up to in terms of... My brothers did very much boys stuff. They were mechanics and footballers and firefighters. Their girls did girls things. I didn't really feel like I fit in either. I felt like in a creative space. I was dyslexic, no one else was dyslexic, so I was very verbal. I wasn't very literal. I think a lot of the journey was my own. I think it really started with just looking at myself.

For the first time, it wasn't about someone else looking at me. I had to look at myself. I had to come back to myself and go to go back to that little kid and be like, Oh, wow, I think he just needs to know it's okay. It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't just fix. I still get triggered. I get triggered today. I got triggered about something on the way over here. I remember I went back and I was like, That's really annoying that happened. Then I can come back to myself. I can be like, Well, it's like an old version of myself. It didn't really trigger me like it used to. It's just life. I don't like it when people are like, I wrote this book and I know everything because it's all bullshit. We know what we know from experience, and I think there's some amazing information and amazing books out there. But we are all human, and we all still make mistakes, and we all still get triggered, no matter how much information you know. I think it's really good to humanize that and know that it's okay to not have it all figured out.

Even if you've done the work, you still get triggered and trip up sometimes. But you'll get yourself up a bit quicker.

I like to say, if it's hysterical, it's historical. Absolutely. If you're reacting in an inordinate way compared to the circumstances, there's something more. There's some scar tissue there. Totally. There. I really like in your book that you talk about the idea that you shouldn't tell people you're fine if you're not because it's always a throw away question. I hate the word fine. It's like, How are you?

I'm good. If I said to you today, How do I look? Can you said, Fine. I'm going to go and change.

You look stunning.

Oh, thanks. But imagine if I said... You know if I said to you, Are you triggered by the word fine? If you said, Chris, what do you think of my hair? And I I think it's fine.

I'm triggered by general small talk. Oh, really? I don't like it. But I like that you give some lines that people can use instead of fine or good. My favorite is, Just preparing for my comeback.

Totally fine. He's just such a middle of the ground. I've been a fine in my life. I'm not a fine, especially in relationships. I'm like, Oh, it's fine. I always think it's fine. It's fine. It's not fine at all. But you tell yourself it's fine. It's really bad, but I'm just going to… I'm good. How are you? You know what I mean? It's just like, How are you doing? I'm fine. It's just such a façade. It's not really a real thing. It's just the middle of the ground. I'd like to go… If you're not fine, I'd like to know about it. Actually, I'm having a really bad day. I had some news this morning that my cat died and I'm devastated. I think it's more real. I just like to know more real stuff.

Well, not drowning is not the same as swimming. Yeah, totally. Just because you're fine and you're not It's fine.

Have you ever been in the salon? Do you know when it comes to the best is when you're in the salon. Has anyone ever cut your hair really bad?

Of course. I had a huge hair depression.

Oh my God. You sat there and what do you think? It's fine. It's not the truth. Because really, it's not fine. You go home, what the fuck? That crazy motherfucker cut my hair off. I hate this. Oh, my God. What are they? You go crazy. I ring everyone. Oh, I have this hair. Every day you wake up this hair. It's not fine. Far from fine. Thank you so much. You sit in the chair. It's fine. Thank you so much. It's not fine. I feel like sometimes finally It's going to be a little bit dishonest. It's not really a true feeling of being honest and being aligned with who you are and how you actually feel. Sometimes we can just use that word as an excuse. Don't see me. It's okay. Don't bother about me. I think that's what I find for me is a big ick.

But at the same time, you don't want to be so TMI. I like that you say better than some, not better than others. Yeah. So how are you?

I am today great. I feel really excited about talking about my book. I'm really excited that people will get to know a little bit more about my world, the people I've worked with, some of their stories. And hopefully I can make people laugh, maybe make people cry. And I'm grateful to be in a position in my life where I, at 42, can share some of my journey. I hope that brings someone out there, some peace and some joy. That means a lot to me. I'm very grateful for that. So yeah, I feel grateful. I think it will.

You've done so much therapy, it sounds like, but you talk about this idea, too, that sitting in a hair stylist's chair is like therapy. Why do you think that experience is so vulnerable? And do people talk to you like a therapist?

Oh, my God. The stuff that happens in the chair. I remember when I was back in the salon and had women like, crazy stuff happened. Anyway, we'll get into that. But I think, do you know how many times you look in the mirror a day? How many times do you think you check yourself out?

Very interesting. When I'm not in the best mental health space, I don't look in the mirror as much.

But how many times do you glance in the mirror a day? You brush your teeth, you do a brush on your hair, you bring some deodorant on. Ten times. Yeah, like 10 to 15 times a day. You look in the mirror and what do you see? You don't necessarily register, do you? It's just you.

I see myself.

Yeah, it's you. You know what you look like with your hair in a bun or down. You know what you look like when you're brushing your teeth. You know what you look like in bad lighting. You know what you look in good lighting. No, it's just like a glance. But I think what people will find in this book and what it will give them the ability do is to actually stop and look and see themselves. That's a bit like what happens when you come and sit in my chair in a salon. You sit in the chair, and again, most people go to the negative route. Everyone's sat in that salon chair and they're like, Is this lighting bad or Am I looking fucking old today? Most people tend to go down that negative route. I don't very often hear people sit in their chair and be like, I look fabulous. Wow, my boobs are perky today, and these are great roots, they really suit me. Most people go to It's the negative side. I think what people will find in the book is it's going to be sitting in my chair in terms of you actually stop and look at yourself.

You look at the things you don't like, and you look at the things you do like, and you look at where you want to get to, and maybe let go of some of those beliefs you were told that you weren't possible. In my chair, for example, I'll give you an example. Ms. Jones comes in and she talks about she's a brunette. She's always wanted to be blonde. She knows she can't be blonde. I'd stop them. Tell me, why do you feel like you can't be blonde? I just know I can't do that. I was like, Who told you that? My mom told me when I was a kid that I have to be a brunette, and that's what suits me. I'm like, It's so interesting that we let our roots define us. Because that's just someone that had this idea that you should be one thing. And in actual fact, I see so much possibility for you, and there's endless things. And once you start saying, What about if we found a version of blonde that suited you and your skin tone and your eye color and even your personality type? I could do that.

I could do that. Yeah. And it might not even happen then, but once you've planted the seed, the next time. I've been thinking about what you said, and I think I would like to go like, I think I'd like to try it. I'd like to see something different. You can bring something out in people that It's like a superpower. It makes them see themselves differently. It makes them realize they're not defined by the roots they were given in their past, and they can retell their story. And that became, like I say, a bit of a... It felt like a superpower being able to do that.

And the idea that you, along the way, have created an amazing professional reputation for yourself, what advice would you give to other business owners, entrepreneurs, to create that reputation?

I think success is really interesting. People say you're successful, and I For a long time, I'd be like, Oh, whatever. I'm just a stylist, and I have that self-deprecating feeling about it.

It's also a British thing.

I think it is a British thing. But I can also now be mature enough to be like, Thank you. I've done well. I've worked hard and I've had some successes. I've also had plenty of failures. I think anyone that is wanting to start out, it's about using the tools that can enable you to showcase who you truly are. If you want to make your stamp in the world, like with hair, I wanted to showcase what I was good at. I think what I'm good at is I'm not a beachy wave guy. I'm good at changing things up. I like to bring out the best in people. I like to move things on, tell a story with hair. People would go from long to short, and they'd have banks, and then they wouldn't. I like to story tell. I think that's That was my superpower. I want to show that in my social media that I do these transformations and that people can create different versions of themselves. So that was my staple. Now, if you're a really good colourist and you're great at blondes, That would be your staple. You got to think of what your defining thing is that makes you different in the world of hundreds of thousands of millions of people that also do hair or also are in business or also work at a bank or also want to start off their own business.

Sell the sizz, not the sausage. It's about what is your selling point? I had a friend the other day, I won't say who it was, but she sent me this video and she's like, Hey, I'm launching this brand. What do you think? Can I send you the video? She knew it wasn't good because she's like, I filmed it three times and there's something off about it. Could you look at it and tell me what you think? I said, Yeah, send it over. I'm like, Babe, what are you selling? The chair? She's like, Well, no, I'm actually selling this. I'm like, But all I'm looking at is this chair. Why are you sitting in front of a... You're selling like an old person's home, some cozy... What the hell are you selling? Get the product. I want to see the product. I want to know in the first three seconds why you are the best at what you do. You've earned this expertise. She's phenomenal at what she does. Tell people. She's like, I don't want people to think I'm a big head. I'm like, Use the celebrity. Work with the celebrity. Show the celebrity you've worked with.

Show that. Showcase your work. Showcase that some of these amazing, talented women, some of the most famous women in the world choose you. She's like, What do you think? I'm like, Why don't you post pictures of them? But when it's about you, sometimes you're like, Oh, I don't want to be too much. I don't want to be. It's like, if you're going to be a brand and you're going to be a business, you have to make some noise. You have to let people know because we have a It's a really short attention span. When you're flicking through Instagram, you've got a couple of seconds of attention. You're like, Oh. If it's not capturing your attention and it's not clear to you what the message is, you tend to flip away. I was like, You need to refilm this. You need to tell me in the first few seconds, I want to see the people you work with. I want to know why you're the best at what you do. Also, what is this product you're selling? She's like, Well, it's this, this, and this. I'm like, I don't get that. I get that you're into this animal.

It was like this animal was-This is set I don't want to tell you, but you might tell me off. She was hysterical because we've been friends for a long time and she's laughing. She knew. She's like, You're so right. I was like, Babe, believe in yourself. Because she's the most talented at what she does, but she just wasn't showcasing it because she didn't want to be too much. Instead, she was just showcasing everything but the actual product and the beauty of it and why it's the best. You got to make that stand out. What you're good at, tell people and sell the sizzle, not the sausage. Who's your favorite client? I love everyone I've worked with. I think I've learned something different from everyone. I very much think I've always been like a sponge. Kim, for example, what she's done has always been such a big inspiration to me in her career in terms of she was a reality star, then she She did the law and got into law and the law degree. And then became an actress. And meanwhile, was doing Skims, which is this billion-dollar company, a multi-billion-dollar company. And see her build it from the bottom to the top and then be a great mom.

I've always been a sponge working with amazing people. I've always like, How do they do that? How do they manage that? What's the balance here? Do you have a favorite look? Like a hair style?

Not to be known for, yes.

Not really. I think that's up to other people to decide. There's things that people always say, Oh, Jalo Super Bowl or one of Kim's Met Ball looks or Ariana Grande's Pony Town when we did the hoops and stuff in it. There's lots of things that people like. I think the one thing that I'd like to be remembered for is maybe seeing people and help them see the best version of themselves and bring that out. Whether it is Jalo or whether it's Mrs. Jones that comes in a salon, or if it's someone on the Today Show, or if it's a cancer patient that lost their hair. I just want people to know that looking good and feeling good is more than a superficial thing. It really is something that can change your whole life when you get it aligned. It's really simple. That's what I mean about finding yourself and finding an alignment. Because when you really know who you are, there's three different types of client. You've got the whisper client. The whisper client would be someone that doesn't like to make too much noise in both the literal sense and also the physical sense.

So maybe trim the hair every six weeks, keep it healthy, maybe cover the roots like It'll keep you very gray or keep it very natural. And then you've got the other type of client, which is a talk client. So that will be someone that gets highlights, keeps up with the trends. Oh, Balayage is in now, we'll do Balayage. Someone that likes to keep up with trends and evolves, but it's not insane. They'll just keep up with the latest trends. Then you've got the Scream client. The scream client is someone that is not really about following trends. They like to set the trends. They will go against what suits them, against their skin tone, against their eye color, because they want to be bold and dramatic dramatic in their movement. Also finding out what type of person they are, even if blonde isn't necessarily right for their skin tone and their eye color, they may want to do something dramatic where they will change their makeup and they will change something to make them suit them. I think there's so much play around with hair and your identity and your visual that you can do. You just need to know how, and you can break the rules.

Once you know them, you can break the rules.

I agree. Once you start questioning them, that's where the breakthroughs happen. I can go blonde, potentially.

Let's talk about it. You're blonde.

I'm so nervous to even ask.

You're blonde at the moment. Like brunette and blonde. This is really pretty on you. It's really pretty.

It sounds like you're bringing in how people feel and how you want others to feel, which is what you talk about in the book around relationships. It's important to notice how others make you feel, but also how they make you feel about yourself, which you've outlined in the book. Are you seeing anybody?

What am I at the minute? I think I'm in a place of self-love. I don't know. I think I give a lot of love out throughout my life, and I think I'm in a place where I really enjoy my own company. The thing is, when you've done the work, when you really truly know what's good for you, what attracts you, not You're not attracted through old beliefs and traumas. Actually, attracted as the person you are now, that's someone that has done the work, you realize the pool of people is so much smaller. Whereas before, I'd be like, Oh, they're cute. Let's go with it. Now I'm like, I think I go into a new relationship, almost like a job interview. I look at some of the things. Don't get me wrong, I'm such a lover, but I led too much with that. I used to think love was enough. I love will fix everything, whereas now I'm a little bit more realistic about having a life I want to protect, the things that are important to me, the things that I'm aligned with. Then it's like, if you think about view in a house, when you were younger, the first house you go into, you're like, Oh, my God, I love this place.

I want to be in forever. It's got doors and windows. Then with time, you live in it and you're like, I don't really love. There's not a lot of light. It makes me feel quite down. Or, I really would love bigger door spaces because I'm always banging my head on that door. The next time you look for a house, you might see a house with small windows and small door frames. The idea of that, the idea is cute, the reality, it doesn't work. I think the older and wiser you get and the more work you've done, it's a bit like house shopping. You're like, I know I can be attracted to that, but also I know that's not good for me. I think I'm a little bit older, a little bit wiser, so I'm more selective.

So is that a no?

My answer is I'm more selective. But I'm young and thriving. I'm having a great time.

You talk about how you would get married again.

Do I?

You said that you could get married again.

Yeah, of course. I'm such a lover. Are you kidding me? I love love. Love is like I think to an extent, it was a big weakness of mine. I think I was way too open and way too vulnerable with my life. And I think love is a beautiful thing, and I absolutely believe I definitely would get married again, for sure.

Would you let him officiate your wedding?

I think I've been there and done that.

I would get a routine for you.

Are you a lover?

I love love.

Exactly. Who doesn't? I love love. I love being married. But you know what? Do you Do you know what I really love right now? I love being a dad and my kids are older. My daughter just turned 21. My son just turned 23. I'm so incredibly proud of them and the journey they've been on and watching them come to America at a young age and change their whole lives and have new possibilities. I'm so grateful to be able to share that with them, share my life, create memories with them. I'm so grateful my parents are still alive. Both my parents have had really tough upbringings, and they've both had cancer in the last few years and survived it. That almost made me feel really grateful, too. I remember when they first got diagnosed, I was like, wow, this is that moment you dread as a kid. Because one day you might lose your parents, but you don't really think about it until one day. I was like, Well, I guess I am older now, and they're also older. And it made me feel so much more appreciative of having those memories with my family and the people around me that I love.

I think love is in many forms, and that's something that I really value and hold close to me. I'm very protective of as well.

Well, we loved having you. We end all of our episodes by asking our guests for a final tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. It can be anything, a tip on investing, saving, knowing your value.

The best thing I ever did was save more than I spent. But more away than I spent. Save, save, save. And then invest. Because investing to me was like some mathematical crazy equation. I was like, Where does the money go? And where is it? It's not real. I can't say investment, because what I realized is money doesn't earn money. Money loses value over years. So you could have $200 five years later. It's not worth $200. It's worth $150. It loses value. It's so funny. And it's funny because I went back to the UK last week and I went to my mom and was like, I just brought a bar of chocolate, mom. She's like, Yeah. I was like, I've not brought that since I was a kid in the UK. I was like, Mom, it used to be 50p. And she's like, Right. And I was like, It was six dollars, six pounds. And she's like, Oh, yeah, it's gone up and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm that person now. Because it's that much time has gone on and I really see in the small things how money devalues and inflation goes up. And so investing in your money is very wise.

How often do you check your accounts?

Every I probably check it when I leave here. Really? Yeah, I have a little app. I love it. I'm like, Just have a little look, see what's going on.

Does it give you anxiety?

Yeah, I'm constantly convinced that I've got fraud on my account. And then I go with my business manager. It's like, Oh, no. Yeah, that was me. Drinking coffees that are way too expensive and buying outfits that I wear once.

But they're delicious and you look stunning.

Yeah. But I'm always, like I say, I think I'm just I'm very grateful for having just the luxury of being able to afford lunch. For a long time, I couldn't. I dread the bill, and I dread how if I did spend that money on something that it would affect me, and I wouldn't have enough money to pay for something else. Being a dad at a young age, I had some responsibilities. I had to be very savage and make sure they had something that I could supply for them. Because like I said, when I was a kid, my mom and dad, they did the best they could, but we didn't have anything. There wasn't food in the cupboards. I didn't want that for my kid. I didn't want them to be hungry. I remember the feeling as a kid, I was hungry. I remember feeling hungry. I didn't want that. I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to change the generational pattern that would have been inherited. I hope I've done that.

I think you have.