Transcript of Charlie Brandt Pt. 1

This is Crime House. Everyone wears a mask. No matter how open or lively a person can seem, at the end of the day, there's a hidden truth that's kept from others. We all have deep secrets that we refuse to share. Perhaps those secrets are embarrassing, perhaps they're shocking, or perhaps those secrets are someone's true self, and that true self is a monster. So to hide the monster, they create a mask. But the monster can only hide behind the mask for so long. The human mind is fascinating. It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. Sometimes the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. When that happens, people wonder, how could someone do such a thing? Well, on this show, that's what we're going to try and answer. This is Mind of a Serial Killer, a crimehouse original. Every Monday, we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of history's most notorious serial killers and violent offenders. At Crimehouse, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Mind of a Serial Killer, wherever you get your podcasts.

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I'm Dr. Tristan Angles. As Vanessa takes you through our subject's stories, I'll be helping her dive into these killers' minds as we try to understand how someone could do such horrible things.

Before we get into the story, you should know it contains descriptions of murder, violent crime, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. This is the first of two episodes on Charlie Brandt, a Florida-based serial killer who was credited with killing at least four people between 1971 and 2004, and the true number may be even higher. To many, Charlie was nothing more than a guy who loved to fish and get a little tipsy. But when he committed a shocking and inexplicable murder suicide, investigators discovered a man with some very dark secrets. In today's episode, we'll be exploring Charlie Brandt's early life, the impact of a violent family tragedy, and the shocking crime that revealed his true nature. Next time, we'll follow the investigation into Charlie's past, the trail of bodies he may have left behind, and as always, asking the question, what makes a serial killer? For many serial killers, the seeds of their monstrosity can be attributed to forces beyond their control, like their parents or their upbringing. Now, this It isn't to say that serial killers are solely the products of how they were raised, but for many, understanding them requires understanding their most formative moments.

In the past, we've discussed the concept of nature versus nurture and the factors that influence a serial killer's development. But perhaps it goes back further than that, carrying on through a family's history.

The nature versus nurture concept also extends to inherited trauma. We already have an established understanding of social learning and how children might not learn how to emotionally regulate or self-soothe or learn poor coping skills in general by what's modeled to them by their caregivers or their parents. However, more research indicates that there is a biological component such as maternal stress while pregnant. There's also evidence to suggest that trauma can affect a person's DNA, as research shows that children of women who underwent child abuse are predisposed to depression at 1.7 times the rate. Then there is newer research in epigenetics and the theory that trauma can alter the genes and how they function and how the body reads the DNA sequence.

To truly understand Charlie Brandt, we have to start with his parents, Herbert and Ilsa. But it's less about how they treated him and more about the circumstances of their youth. Both Herbert and Ilsa were German immigrants who came to the United States to seek a better life. Not much is known about Ilsa, but we do have some insight on Herbert. Herbert was born in Germany in 1931. When he was about 10 years old, Herbert joined a program for German boys that directly fed into the infamous Hitler youth. In a nutshell, this program was step one for transforming Germany's youth into committed Nazis. They not only engaged in military exercises, but were also indoctrinated in Nazi ideology, anti-Semitism, alien supremacy, strict discipline, etc. Once a boy reached the age of 14, they then graduated into the Hitler Youth. By the time Herbert turned 14, around 1945, and joined the Hitler youth, the Nazis were heading for defeat. As the Allies made their way toward Berlin, Hitler sent these teenage boys off to actually fight in battle. It's not entirely clear if Herbert was one of them, but it's hard to imagine, even after the war, that his time in Hitler youth didn't leave a lasting effect.

That would be really interesting to learn if Herbert did indeed have to fight in World War II at age 14, because that in and of itself would be significant trauma that would go entirely unresolved given that many Nazi soldiers went into hiding after the war due to war crimes that they committed. There is a significant correlation between trauma and aggression that can also lead to violence. Obviously, this isn't true for all trauma, but certainly more incidences with combat exposure trauma. But the definition of indoctrination, I want to go back to that, is the process of repeating an idea or belief to someone until it's accepted without criticism. The psychological impact of that on a child is substantial. It impeds on their ability to learn critical thinking skills and form their own independent opinions. This could then impact their reasoning and logic, making them more susceptible to victimization in the form of influence and also in other forms. We've seen that transgenerational aspect of indoctrination on a large scale. It is certainly not easy to break from that mindset. It often takes great effort to deconstruct the belief system that was very firmly rooted at such a young age.

But ways that that can be done is new surroundings. That's a great place to start because it brings new perspectives.

So exactly when Herbert met his wife, Ilsa, is unknown. Most likely they met after the war and realized they needed a fresh start. Germany and the rest of Europe had been completely decimated, so they made their way to America. Sometime around 1955, Ilsa and Herbert moved to Connecticut, where Herbert got a job as a laborer with International Harvester, a company that built farm equipment. He and Ilsa also started a family. Their first child was a girl, Angela. Then on February 23rd, 1957, Carla Carol Charlie Brandt entered the world. Herbert's work with International Harvester, first as a laborer, then as an engineer, forced the family to bounce around. As a result, both Charlie and Angela moved from school to school. By all accounts, Charlie was a fairly good student as a kid. The constant moving around didn't seem to impact his ability to learn, and it's been reported that he got A's and B's, but he was quite shy and introverted. He didn't make friends or have any strong connections at school. And many reports claim that Charlie was bullied by the other kids.

Well, moving around as frequently as it appears that the Brandt family did, especially during Charlie's critical years, can definitely disrupt the acquisition of a child's social skills, leading them to struggle connecting with peers. I would actually think that this played a part in why he might have been bullied. He may have been viewed as strange by his peers because his social skills were underdeveloped, but also their cultural differences to consider. School environments and customs, they truly differ, and certainly the curriculum remains largely the same, but the environment itself varies by state. So this can be why it was difficult for Charlie to relate to his peers and vice versa.

I moved around every year as a child, and I think also another aspect is his home life. I mean, I had love always in my home, so I feel like there are other factors as well, but that certainly is tumultuous paired the bullying. When Herbert was transferred to Fort Wayne, Indiana, in 1968, it was more the same for 11-year-old Charlie, an inability to make friends, and like I said, the constant bullying.

Interestingly, I did my dissertation on cyberbullying when I was in grad school because at the time, the prominence of it was just so large, and the psychological impacts that it was having were detrimental. There was a lot of suicides that were occurring. What we know from the relevant literature on bullying in general is that it consistently shows us that bullying in any form elevates the risk of developing depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and suicidal thoughts and behaviors. More and more children of bullying are taking their lives, and it's devastating. It's also a form of trauma for a child. Also what the research has shown us is that unresolved trauma can lead to anger.

Now, a lot of people have wondered, speaking of the home, what Charlie's father thought of all this. Considering his upbringing, did Herbert think his son was a wimp or weak? Did he want Charlie to defend himself? It's questions like this that have left some to think this was the reason Herbert decided to teach Charlie how to hunt, maybe as a way to toughen him up.

It's also worth considering that Herbert was born and raised in Germany, and hunting as a family or community might be much more of a tradition or a custom there. That being said, Herbert himself was also preparing to fight in a war at the same age Charlie is in in this part of his life, and that is very significant.

The two of them like to hunt together on family vacations. In 1970, when Charlie was 13 or so, the Brants, who now had two more daughters, headed down to Florida. With their pet Beagle in tow, Herbert and Charlie went out one day to do some hunting. As Charlie told it, at some point, the Beagle ran off. He wasn't the most well-trained pet, and he wouldn't listen when they tried to call him back. They had to leave without him. The next day, Charlie and Herbert set out and searched for their dog. Eventually, they found him hiding in some bushes, but he wouldn't come out no matter how loud Herbert yelled. So Herbert decided to scare it and fired his gun. Unfortunately, Herbert's bullet struck the Beagle and killed him. Though the dog was considered the family pet, Charlie was said to have a particularly strong connection with him. He took the death extremely hard.

I think that might surprise people, given that there's a strong correlation between psychopathy or sociopathy and animal torture. It sounds like Charlie had a connection with this dog. But just because there's a correlation doesn't mean it's the standard. I think in Charlie's case, he had no sense of constancy. He moved frequently. He didn't have a brother to form a bond with, and he lacked any peer support system. His dog was likely the only constant companion he had and a companion that loved him unconditionally. The impact of losing man's best friend is difficult enough. But in circumstances like this, I have to wonder if his father's decision to leave his dog for the night, to return the next day, and then obviously the mishandling of it leading to the dog's death at the hands of him must have made Charlie feel that nothing was valuable to his family. His father may have just killed the only thing Charlie felt a connection to.

So the Brants returned home to Fort Wayne at the beginning of 1971. On Sunday evening, January third, the family gathered around the table for dinner, but the mood was tense. Ilsa, who was eight months pregnant with baby number five, got angry at Charlie for not finishing his homework. After dinner, 13-year-old Charlie was sent to his room, presumably to finish his homework, His 15-year-old sister, Angie, went off to her room as well. Meanwhile, Ilsa and Herbert got ready for bed. Ilsa took a bath and read Time magazine, and Herbert shaved. All of a sudden, the door burst open. Charlie was standing in the threshold with a handgun. Herbert recognized the gun as the one he kept in his night stand. He taught Charlie how to shoot and load it. Now it was in Charlie's hands and aimed at his father. Mother. Charlie shot Herbert, sending him to the ground. Then Charlie turned the gun to his pregnant mother. Herbert watched in horror, shouting for his son to stop. Meanwhile, Ilsa somehow found the strength to yell for Angela to call the police. After Charlie shot his parents, he made his way to Angela's room. She was fully awake, terrified by the deafening blasts.

Charlie burst into Angela's room and fired, but the gun didn't go off, so he threw the gun aside and pounced onto his sister. Charlie wrapped his hands around his sister's throat and began to squeeze. As Angela struggled to breathe, she knew she was going to have to do something, anything, in order to survive.

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On the evening of January 3, 1971, One, 13-year-old Charlie Brandt burst into his parents' bathroom and shot his father and pregnant mother. He then rushed into his 15-year-old sister Angela's room and tried to shoot her, too. However, the gun jammed, still consumed by a murderous rage, Charlie jumped on top of his sister and began to strangle her. But Angela fought back. She screamed at Charlie, trying to calm him down. She shouted that she loved him. Miraculously, it worked. Almost as if a switch had been turned, Charlie stopped attacking his sister. As the two settled down, Angela studied her brother, wondering what would suddenly drive him into a rage like this. More importantly, she feared that it would return, and she might not have the strength to fight him off again. She knew she needed to get help. With Charlie a little calmer now, Angela convinced him to go check on their baby sisters, Jessica and Melanie. As Charlie made his way into the hallway, he stopped, turned back, and asked, You're not going to leave me alone, are you? Angela replied that she wouldn't and that the two of them would figure this whole thing out.

Maybe they would even flee to a hippie commune together. But the second the Coast was clear, Angela ran to a neighbor's house. As Angela begged for the neighbor to open door, she could hear Charlie crying out after her, wanting to know why she had left him after promising she wouldn't. Fearing the worst, Angela ran away from the neighbor's house as Charlie inched closer. Charlie got there. Just as the neighbor opened the door, he told them, I just shot my mom and dad.

I think a lot of people would want to understand what would make a child shoot or kill their parents. It's actually whether people are aware or not. There's been a lot of research on this, and the FBI statistics on paracide, which is parental homicide, At this time frame, when Charlie did this, indicated an average of 300 parents per year were murdered by their child.

That's a lot.

Right. What they learned is that most of them were teenagers or in their teen years, adolescents like Charlie, and white males also like Charlie. But the why, it varies, as in everything, when it comes to understanding human behavior. But there was a correlation between a sense of feeling trapped from ongoing abuse and neglect and instances of paracide. I think in the case of Charlie, there may have been a connection regarding his father killing his dog, and this instance of him attempting to kill his parents because it happened so soon after by the sound of it. He had no friends, as we talked about. He had three sisters. There's obviously going to be sibling rivalry, but there's also a sisterly bond. Here's Charlie not having that sibling bond and not having a peer support system. His dog was taken or killed by his dad, and now his mother's expecting another child. So I'm wondering if Charlie may have felt trapped and neglected within his own family and had no outlets. But I think the idea of why he did this would be difficult to really pinpoint without Charlie directly discussing it. But what I would do if I was assessing this is I would want to explore this trance that his sister described that he was in.

I'm hesitant to say it was a psychosis because that's not something you simply snap out of. Even transient psychosis is something that can occur with trauma, and that lasts days up until three months. It's not something you just snap out of the way he did and get back to being fully oriented. So it sounds more of a dissociative rage just because of the timing. And also interesting is that right after his sister said she loved him is when he allegedly snapped out of this trance. So I think that what might sparked this may be connected to a feeling of being devalued and alone. And his sister saying, I love you indicated to him, Oh, someone does value me. And it snapped him out of it. I would want to look into that more if Charlie was here to talk to.

After Charlie confessed to his neighbors, they called 911 and paramedics rushed to the scene. Miraculously, Charlie's father, Herbert, survived the attack, but sadly, his mother, Ilsa, and her unborn child did not. Once the police arrived on scene, Herbert told them that Charlie's attack must have been a reaction to the death of their pet Beagle. But Charlie disagreed. He told police, I didn't really want to. It was like I was programmed to do it. I hesitated, but the next thing I knew, I had shot them. Charlie's sister, Angela, agreed that it had more to do with Charlie than with the incident with their dog. In her statement to the police, she claimed that as Charlie was strangling her, she saw his eyes gaze over, as you mentioned before, Dr. Angles, as if Charlie wasn't in there. During the struggle, she claimed to have seen that trance break and then the real Charlie return. She told the police that when Charlie came to, he asked, What did I do? Whatever drove Charlie to do it, he was incarcerated for several months waiting to learn his fate. The only time he was allowed to leave was to attend his mother's funeral in chains.

Allegedly, Charlie showed almost no emotion as they laid his mother to rest. Naturally, everyone wanted to know why Charlie Brandt had committed such a violent attack. A few days after the shooting, he had a psychiatric evaluation. One of the doctors was a man named Ronald Pinkner. Dr. Pinkner was able to get Charlie to open up about his life, his family, his troubles in school, and just his general interests. After several meetings, Pinkner didn't find anything seemingly wrong with Charlie. Nothing indicated that he suffered from an underlying mental illness. Another psychologist noted that Charlie did not have a mental defect, but a moral defect.

That language is legal jargon, and it sounds like he was being assessed, possibly for criminal responsibility or what we know as an insanity defense. But he was also a minor, and this was in the 1970s, so I don't know if that's really what that was about. But A moral defect is an indication to me that the psychologist who came to that conclusion felt that any punishment would still not be a deterrent for Charlie to not reoffend in the future. That's a strong stance to take on a 13-year-old with no prior history, but he must have had enough psychometric data to render that opinion. I would be very curious to read that report and why they came to that conclusion. It would give us a lot more insight into Charlie.

Well, officially, Charlie's actions that night were a complete and total mystery. Now the question was, what should the punishment be? According to Indiana state law at the time, Charlie was too young to be tried for murder. In fact, he was never even charged with a crime. However, a grand jury was called and investigated the incident. Ultimately, they warned that Charlie was likely to commit murder again if he didn't receive proper psychiatric care. Following the grand jury's recommendation, Charlie was sent to Central State Hospital on May 25th, 1971. He spent a year there. During that time, he was evaluated by more doctors and participated in group therapy. Allegedly, he never spoke about the night he killed his mother. It appears that the only time he mentioned her was to complain that she nagged him and hollered a lot. It seemed like Charlie just wanted to appear normal and well adjusted. But was it all just a ploy? At some point during his stay at the hospital, Charlie told his sister Angela, I knew when they wanted me to cry, so I did.

In my field, it's actually not uncommon to encounter individuals who have been psychiatrically committed to use impression management techniques on staff for secondary gain. It happens for a variety of reasons, and the most common is that they are malingering, which is feigning psychiatric symptoms, so that they can remain in by the hospital. What they gain by doing that is they don't go to prison for longer or they don't want to go back to their regular lives for whatever that might be. Conversely, there are a lot of reasons why someone would want to present favorably in using impression management. The majority of the time, it's because they think that if staff believes that they are improving, that they will get released sooner. In Charlie's case, though, I think what he expressed to his sister is an indication of learning chameleon-like traits, and that's something that's common in psychopathy. Basically, it's mirroring the behaviors of others in order to blend in and appear normal. In a sense, it's very much like faking. What they're doing is that they're using verbal and nonverbal behaviors in order to give the impression of something in particular, whether it's the impression that they are, in fact, experiencing a severe mental illness or the impression that they are very well functioning and no longer in need of services.

So whatever Charlie's strategy was, he was released from the hospital after about a year, and it was thanks to to his father. At no point did Herbert Brandt ever hold any ill will toward what his son did. Rather, he appears to have forgiven Charlie, or at the very least, Herbert refused to abandon his son. After recovering from his wounds, Herbert fought to get Charlie released, and on June 16, 1972, 15-year-old Charlie returned to his family. Shortly after Charlie's release, Herbert relocated the family down to Ormond Beach, Florida. Ormond Beach was where the Brants had spent their vacations. It seemed like the perfect place to start over and forget the tragedy of what they'd gone through. It seems like they did do their best to forget it because the Brants never talked about the night of January third, 1971. Supposedly, Herbert disliked discussing family secrets. In fact, Jessica and Melanie, the two youngest daughters, had no idea what really happened to their mother. They were told that Ilsa died in a car accident. It wouldn't be until 2004, three decades later, that they learned the truth. Instead, Charlie, Angela, and Herbert let it stay buried.

It's interesting that they're not addressing this trauma. It makes me wonder if within the home there was no reinforcement of expressing emotion, which can lead to stifling emotion which can then lead to dissociative rages. It can actually create a lot of built-up anger that can later then be directed outward onto a specific group or anything symbolic of what has been unresolved.

I'm not a doctor, clearly, but I think of it as a tea kettle. All these traumas and all these things that you're not talking about, and they're holding back and holding inside. It's just building up.

That's an excellent analogy. One that we often use is the cupboard. Is the cupboard full? Is it going to overflow? If you have a bottle and it keep filling it up, and you shake it up, is it going to explode? Yeah.

Clearly, the Brants didn't have a healthy family dynamic. It wasn't long before they split apart again. Herbert eventually remarried and returned to Indiana, taking Charlie's little sisters, Melanie and Jessica, with him. Meanwhile, Charlie and Angela, who was old enough to be on her own at this point, stayed behind in Ormond Beach. It It was pretty obvious that they would have to rely on each other to survive. Charlie went on to attend Seabreeze High School in nearby Daytona Beach. According to people who knew him during this period, Charlie was still quiet and a bit of a loner. Seabreeze High was known for being home to athletes and surfers. Charlie was neither. He preferred playing chess and collecting stamps. But as Charlie got older, he did manage to make a few friends. One of them was actually Angela's boyfriend, Jim Graves. Though Jim was a little older than Charlie, the two got along extremely well. They liked to go fishing and drink together. Jim would later note that Charlie seemed like a normal guy. According to him, Charlie even had a few girlfriends in high school and seemed like any other teenage kid in Florida.

I wonder if this is those chameleon traits we talked about earlier, where he knew how to use impression management to put on that mask of sanity and appear They're normal.

That absolutely sounds like it. But Charlie clearly wasn't like other teenagers. Early on into their friendship, Jim learned about Charlie's dark past when Angela told him about what her brother had done. Surprisingly, it seems like Jim took it in stride, and the two of them remained friends. After high school, Charlie attended community college in Dayton Beach and received a degree in Electronics. After graduation, he got a job working for Raytheon, a major weapons and electronics manufacturer. The company relocated Charlie to the Bahamas, but he still saw Jim whenever he made it back to Florida. One day, Charlie dropped by Jim's place with his fishing rod. According to Jim, Charlie told him that the fishing rod was full of cocaine.

Wow. We know cocaine is a stimulant, and Charlie has also been drinking. What we know about this is a lot of times people will use cocaine while drinking in order to stay awake and to allow themselves to engage in the substance use and partying a lot longer. But cocaine acts on the brain in a very interesting way in that it floods the dopamine bath or flood the reward pathway with dopamine, which can also induce, if it's too much, an experience of psychosis.

Oh, my gosh. If Charlie was to be believed, he'd found the drugs by accident. He told Jim that he was out fishing one day near his company housing in the Bahamas when he'd stumbled upon a duffle bag. When he opened it, it was full of uncut cocaine. It appears that Charlie was using it and selling it to his coworkers on the side. One day, he was approached by a man he knew who was a helicopter pilot. The pilot told Charlie that he knew a guy he could sell the drugs to, for a fee, of course. Supposedly, the cocaine Charlie had was worth about half a million dollars. Jim noted later on that when Charlie bought a $250,000 house, he paid in cash. But if Charlie had a drug problem, he didn't show it, and he still didn't show any signs of his past trauma either. As the 1980s rolled on, Charlie really seemed like a normal guy. Eventually, he left Raytheon and got a job as a radar technician with Ford Aerospace in Astor, Florida, about 40 miles from Dayton Beach. Perhaps realizing he was getting older or perhaps feeling lonely, Charlie decided it was time that he found someone, so he asked Jim to set him up with someone.

Jim and Charlie's sister Angela ended up getting married sometime in the late 1970s or early 1980s. However, the marriage didn't last and the divorce got pretty ugly. After they split, Jim began seeing a woman named Nancy, but that didn't stop Charlie and Jim from being friends. So when Charlie asked Jim if he could set him up with someone, Jim asked Nancy if she had any single friends. As it turned out, Nancy's roommate was available, so Nancy and Jim arranged for the four of them to go out for drinks. Charlie's date was a woman named Terry Helfrich. Little did she know this chance encounter in 1985 with Charlie Brandt would prove to be fatal. By all accounts, Terry Helfrich was free-spirited and fun-loving. She appeared to get along with everyone and made friends pretty easily. Essentially, she was the opposite of a young Charlie Brandt. Thierry was born in 1958 while her father was stationed at a military base in Japan. As a so-called military brat, Thierry was very close with her family, especially with her older sister, Mary Lou. Two. There was a pretty big age difference between them. When Terri was about four, Mary Lou was already on her way to nursing school.

But as Terry got older, the two developed a powerful bond. After high school, Terry wanted to go into business management. She bounced between a couple of schools before ultimately getting a degree from the University of Southern Mississippi. Then, after college, she got a job with Ivy's Department Store, which is now known as Dillard's. The job at Ivy's moved move Thierry around the region until she eventually ended up in Dayton Beach, where she met Charlie Brandt in 1985. Charlie and Terry instantly hit it off. Although Charlie had come out of his shell a bit, he was still pretty quiet and reserved. Meanwhile, Thierry was vivacious and extroverted, the yin to Charlie's yang. The two connected so well, so fast, that a year later, on August 29, 1986, they got married. Before the wedding, Charlie's best friend, Jim Graves, gave Charlie some advice. Jim thought Charlie should tell Terry about the night of January 3, 1971, when Charlie had killed his mother. Charlie's older sister, Angela, thought it was a good idea, too. At first, Charlie didn't want to do it, but eventually, he agreed to tell Terry his dark secret, although no one knows if he actually ever did.

Once Charlie and Terry were married, they eventually moved to an island in the Florida Keys called Big Pine Key. Terry got a job working as a receptionist for a dentist, and Charlie continued working as a radar technician. By all appearances, their marriage was solid. Everyone who knew the couple saw a man and a woman who were very much in love and weren't afraid to show it. They even packed each other's lunch for the day. But Charlie and Terry shared a problem. They both abused alcohol. Sometimes when Terry got drunk, she liked to get a little flirtatious with other men, even in front of her husband. Whether her flirting was serious or not, Charlie never saw it as a threat to their marriage. He never got angry, never got into a fight. Instead, he would calmly remove her from the situation. As for Charlie, when he drank, he often got a glazed look in his eyes. It was as if he slowed down, like some switch was flipped.

Well, alcohol does interfere with the brain's communication pathways, and it can make it harder for the brain to function properly. People become more disinhibited, meaning they're, in Charlie's case, more depressed, so to speak. I say that not in the sense of mood, but in terms of just emotional expression. That explains a lot on Charlie's behalf.

Definitely. Now, in our past episodes, we talked about Jeffrey Daumer. He drank a lot, too. Does this seem like a common problem with serial killers or violent offenders, drinking and having that dissociation?

Certainly, it is a huge correlation of having a high risk of substance abuse or substance addiction in correlation with any type of mental health condition. We call that a comorbid condition or cooccurring condition. It's not uncommon. We definitely see that not just in individuals with antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy, but individuals who struggle with trauma, PTSD, depression, anxiety. The choice of substance is going to depend on the symptoms that they're trying to self-medicate. Somebody who's more depressed is likely going to turn towards a substance that's more stimulating versus a person who's anxious is likely going to look at substances that are more depressing or work on the central nervous system.

Beyond their problems with alcohol, Charlie and Terry seem to live an uneventful life. As the 1980s turned into the 1990s, they continued to live and work in the Florida Keys. When Charlie wasn't drinking with his wife, he was off fishing. And at no point did they have children. But they did have plenty of family. When it came to Terry's, Charlie got along well with them, especially her niece, Michelle Jones. Michelle was the daughter of Terry's older sister, Mary Lou. She was born in the late '60s, so she and Terry were pretty close in age. Like her aunt, Michelle grew up as a happy, bubbly, and popular young woman. Michelle was also a very hard worker and incredibly smart. She graduated high school at the age of 16. After graduating from Valencia College in 1988, Michelle began her career working for a local Fox affiliate in Florida. She worked there for several years, bounced to another network, then spent some time at an ad agency. Eventually, she got the gig of a lifetime as a sales executive for the Golf channel. The job paid well, so well that by the time she was about 35, she was able to buy a nice house in Orlando.

Charlie was always impressed with Michelle and how she was able to take control of her life. He often told his friends how intelligent she was or how no guy seemed to be good enough for her, although he maybe admired her too much. Behind Michelle's back, he called her Victoria's Secret because he thought she was so beautiful.

I think maybe why she stuck out to him is that she had, by all accounts, a very standard upbringing where she was nurtured, she was loved, she was admired, she was empowered. That's in stark contrast to Charlie's experience.

Well, Michelle, for her part, got along well with her uncle Charlie. Sure, he was a bit of an oddball, he and Terry worked well together. And though she sometimes saw them argue when they drank, it wasn't enough to make Michelle worried about any problems between them. Whenever there was a hurricane, Michelle offered for Charlie and Terry to come stay with her in Orlando. Charlie and Terry's house in the Keys was pretty exposed to the elements. So whenever a hurricane was forecasted to be especially bad, they took Michelle up on her offer. And in September 2004, Hurricane Ivan was looking particularly nasty. Charlie didn't want to leave their home in Big Pine Key. Maybe he thought the hurricane would die down or change course. Perhaps he just didn't think it was that big a deal. But Terry wanted to go, and Michelle insisted. So he packed a bag, and on September 11, 2004, they drove to Orlando. The next day, Charlie and Terry headed to his old stomping grounds in Ormond Beach, about 60 miles away. Charlie's father, Herbert, had moved back there. Along with Charlie's little sister, Jessica. But the visit wasn't very pleasant. Charlie kept badgering Terry about how he wanted to go back home to the keys and that he was going to leave the next day.

And yet the following day, September 13th, they stayed at Michelle's. Charlie's flip-flopping annoyed Terry. All day, he'd complained that evacuating was a waste of time, especially because Hurricane Ivan didn't hit the keys after all. And the day after that, Charlie and Terry were still at Michelle's. That night, they got drunk and had a fight. Whatever it was about, it ruined Michelle's plans. She had to tell a friend not to come over because Charlie and Terry were arguing. The next morning, September 15th, Michelle's mother, Mary Lou, called her daughter to check in. Mary Lou and her husband lived in North Carolina and were keeping an eye on Hurricane Ivan. They also knew Charlie and Terry were staying with Michelle. But when Mary Lou called, nobody answered the phone. Mary Lou was worried and kept trying to call, but it went to voicemail every time. At some point, Mary Lou received a call from Michelle's office. She hadn't arrived at work. Sensing something was wrong, Mary Lou called one of Michelle's friends, a woman named Debbie Knight. Debbie lived close to Michelle, so Mary Lou asked her to go check on her.

Mary Lou was definitely listening to that woman's intuition. Yes. There's this potential hurricane. They're not returning back to the keys. They're not answering their phone. Then, of course, they get a call that she hadn't shown up to work. Something's very wrong.

Is there a psychological factor to powerful bonds like this. I have family members like my mom and my aunt who you'd say their alarms are going off and they sense when something's going on.

Sure. I think that definitely is the case, especially when we look at twins and their bond. But I think mostly it's that you know that person very well. You know their schedule, you know their patterns, their behaviors, what they're likely to do in certain situations. If somebody you know who generally checks in on you and sends you a message that, Hey, we're all well, or, Hey, I'm going here, and they don't, then you automatically know, Hey, this isn't the baseline of their functioning. Something's wrong. That also helps strengthen the intuition.

Well, Mary Lou was right to be worried, unfortunately. When When Debbie arrived, she noticed that Charlie and Terry's SUV was still in the driveway. If there was a car in the driveway but nobody was answering the phone, that meant something very bad could have happened. Fearing the worst, Debbie rushed to the front door. Thankfully, she had a spare key. Michelle and her friends all had spare keys to each other's houses. But when Debbie tried unlocking the door, the knob wouldn't turn. Debbie pounded on the door, asking for Michelle to open up, but no one responded. So she went around the house and banged on the windows. Still, no one answered. Finally, Debbie saw a neighbor coming out from his garage. She rushed over and told him what was going on. The neighbor grabbed a gun and a flash light from his car, and they ran back to Michelle's house together. After trying the front door again, they headed to the back of the house. On their way around, they passed by the garage door, which must have had a window because they were able to see inside. Their neighbor quickly turned around and pushed Debbie to the ground, hoping to prevent her from seeing inside.

Unfortunately, he was too late. Inside the garage, 47-year-old Charlie Brandt hung from the rafters. When the police finally arrived, they discovered something even more shocking, the butchered bodies of Michelle Jones and Terry Brandt. Charlie had killed them before taking his own life. And the police would soon discover that Charlie's crimes may have extended beyond this tragic murder suicide. He might have been a serial killer. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next Monday as we discuss the investigation into Charlie Brandt's hidden double life.

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