Transcript of Charlie Brandt Pt. 2

This is Crimehouse. Secrecy is a curious thing. In some instances, we need it for our personal safety, information, finances, political opinions, religious beliefs, things of that nature. Sometimes keeping secrets ensures that we're able to feel safe in our daily lives. But secrecy can also be dangerous. When we don't know what someone's thinking or doing, it can have devastating ramifications, infidelity, petty crime, murder. Secrets can build, turning into a house of cards. And if that house falls, it may reveal a monster hiding in plain sight. The human mind is fascinating. It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. Sometimes the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. When that happens, people wonder, how could someone do such a thing? Well, on this show, that's what we're going to try and answer. This is Mind of a Serial Killer, a crime house original. Every Monday, we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of history's most notorious serial killers and violent offenders. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts.

Your feedback truly matters. And for For free and early access to Mind of a Serial Killer, plus exciting bonus content, subscribe to Crimehouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

And I'm Dr. Tristan Engels. As Vanessa takes you through our subject's story, Ries. I'll be helping her dive into these killers' minds as we try to understand how someone could do such horrible things.

Before we get into this story, you should know it contains descriptions of murder, violent crime, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. This is the last of two episodes on Charlie Brandt, a Florida-based serial killer who was credited with killing at least four people between 1971 and 2004, and the true number or maybe even higher. Last week, we explored Charlie's troubled life and how at the age of 13, he inexplicably killed his pregnant mother and attempted to kill his father and sister. As As an adult, he appeared and acted like any normal person. That is, until he was identified as the perpetrator of a murder suicide involving his wife and niece. Today, we're diving into the investigation of Charlie's gruesome crime and how it led to the discovery of his true nature. And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a serial killer? Sometimes the motive for a murder is obvious, an abusive partner, a jealous lover, or in the cases of some serial killers, someone who's simply addicted to violence. But in the case of Charlie Brandt, that picture never materialized, which makes his final moments an enduring mystery.

I think it can certainly seem like a mystery, but when we examine all of Charlie's life, we can actually see the signs. Psychologists did say that Charlie had a moral defect in which they believed there was not going to be a punishment that would deter him from committing such acts again. The problem is with each state, there are maximum commitment terms for involuntary hospitalizations, and it varies by state. So once that max commitment time has been reached, the hospital has to discharge them. They have to find another way. There was only so much they could have done for Charlie at age 13.

Yeah, and he was in there for a year, right?

Yeah, so that could have been the maximum commitment for that state at that time.

Regardless of why Charlie Brandt did what he did, the following facts are indisputable. On September 11, 2004, 47-year-old Charlie and his wife, Terry, left their home in Big Pine Key and headed to Orlando, Florida. Hurricane Ivan was on the verge of striking the region, and Terry's niece, Michelle Jones, had asked them to stay with her to wait out the storm. Four days later, Michelle's mother, Mary Lou Jones, called her daughter to check in. However, when Mary Lou called, it went to voice mail. As the day passed with no word from Michelle, Mary Lou got worried, so she called one of her daughter's friends, Debbie Knight, to stop by Michelle's house. When Debbie arrived, no one answered the door. Even though Charlie and Terry's SUV was in the driveway, Debbie flagged down one of Michelle's neighbors, and they decided to try to get into the house from the back. As they went around the side of the house, Debbie and the neighbor peaked into the garage window and saw Charlie's body hanging from the rafters. They immediately called 911, and once first responders arrived, they came across a scene straight out of a horror film. In the garage, there was a metal ladder next to Charlie's body, which confirmed to the police that Charlie had taken his own life.

The police then moved into the living room and immediately found the dead body of Charlie's wife, 46-year-old Terry Brandt. She was propped up on the couch, covered in blood. As police examined her, they discovered that her body was riddled with stab wounds. Eventually, the coroner would reveal that Terry had been stabbed seven times. After finding Terry in the living room, officers searched the house for 37-year-old Michelle. It didn't take them long to find her lifeless body either. She was in her room, lying on her bed, and the way they found her was even more gruesome than Terry. Michelle had not only been stabbed, she had been completely butchered. Her head, breasts, and heart had all been removed and placed next to her body on the bed. Meanwhile, police found her intestines in a trash can.

Wow, this is very intimate what aspects of her body he removed.

And despite this horribly grizzly scene, the rest of the house was clean, and there didn't seem to be much sign of a struggle. The conclusion was simple. Charlie killed these women and then took his own life. But what the investigators couldn't wrap their heads around was the murder scene itself. A The spokesperson for the Seminole County Sheriff's Department said, It was absolutely stomach-turning, just horrific. It was rough, even for some of the more seasoned people. It wasn't just the fact that Charlie had killed Terry and Michelle well, but that he did it in such a horrific way. Remember, law enforcement had no idea that Charlie had killed his mother 33 years earlier because he was so young when it happened, he was never charged for it. So the whole situation seemed like it came completely out of nowhere.

I can see why this is really shocking. Also, again, it's such a very personal thing to do, and it really rules out any crime of passion because of the personalization, the disemboweling, the removal of specific organs that are very symbolic of something more personal. All of that signifies that this was very meticulously done.

Yes, and there's so much to this. Now, the fact that he then took his own life after committing these horrifying crimes, is that common for serial killers to do?

No, it's not very common because Most of the time, they don't want to take their life. They want the opportunity to do this again. They're going to continue trying to be a chameleon, fit in with society, have a wife, have a child, have a home, have a job, and look as normal as possible so that they have more opportunities to do this. This is very unusual.

As the paramedics and coroners carefully removed the bodies from the scene, investigators went to work trying to figure out Charlie's motive behind the murders and why they were so brutal. Over the next few days, the police scoured Michelle's house. They were able to quickly find the murder weapon, a knife from Michelle's kitchen. They also noticed that Michelle's underwear had been thrown all over the bedroom. Strangely, it appeared as if Charlie had cut up the underwear and that he did it with the same knife he used to murder Terry and Michelle. However, there was no suicide note or anything that would give them a hint of Charlie's motive, so investigators started questioning his family and friends.

This makes me think that maybe his suicide was actually not planned, but rather impulsive.

The fact that there was no Yeah, there was no note.

Yeah. So maybe all of this really wasn't anything that was planned. That's something he impulsively did.

So one person they interviewed right away was Lisa Emmens, one of Michelle's friends. Lisa told the police that on the night of September 15th, the night of the murders, Michelle had invited her to come for dinner. But that night Lisa was running late. Michelle told her not to bother coming over because Charlie and Terry had too much to drink and were fighting. Michelle Michelle said that she was pretty exhausted and wanted to call it an early night. Based on this timeline, it seems likely that Charlie killed Michelle sometime after she went to her room and that Charlie's murderous rage could have been driven by this mysterious argument with Terry. After more investigation, there was more evidence that Charlie killed Terry first. When it came to the manner of death, Terry's stab wounds revealed they were done in rapid succession, while Michelle was killed much more deliberately. Her body only had one stab wound. Why would that be?

When we know about serial killers, is that there are some instances where their motives or their pattern is consistent and some where it is not. The reason is, is it's regarding, usually, a crime of opportunity, one that wasn't necessarily planned but presented itself. It's a lot messier than it otherwise would have been. In this In this case, it seems like perhaps something triggered Charlie to act impulsively and in a rage, kill Terry. Then after maybe processing that and calming down, realized, Okay, he has now to deal with Michelle. Then he actually took his time with Michelle, which could signify that he enjoyed that.

There was one thing investigators couldn't learn from the crimes scene, Charlie's Motive. They moved on to Charlie and Terry's house down in Big Pine Key, over 350 miles south of Orlando. What they discovered was both alarming and downright creepy. Pinned to the back of the bedroom door, there was a poster of the female anatomy, the kind you'd see at a doctor's office, showing the skeletal and muscular systems. The police also found several medical books and journals inside the house. Consider Considering that Charlie wasn't a doctor or a nurse, lead Detective Rob Hemert couldn't understand why he had these things. Then he noticed something. Elements of the chart matched the way Charlie had cut Michelle. Whether it was removing organs or exposing Michelle's muscle by removing the flesh. It was as if Charlie duplicated parts of the poster. The medical books and the poster weren't the only things that began to paint a disturbing picture. They also found that Charlie had his own subscription to Victoria's Secret catalogs. If you remember from last time, Charlie casually called Michelle Victoria's Secret to his friends because he thought she was beautiful. Maybe he was more obsessed with Michelle than anyone realized.

Meanwhile, Charlie's computer revealed that he had some extremely problematic sexual fetishes. Investigators found internet search histories for necrophilia and erotic horror. It appeared that Charlie had viewed many images and pornographic websites which showed women who were injured and bloodied. There's actually a name for this type of pornography, Snuff Film.

What we know about certain paraphilia disorders like necrophilia, is that the attraction is to the idea that they own the sexual partner or an object of that partner, and this falls into that.

Reminds me a little bit of domer in that sense.

It does indeed.

From what we know of Charlie's early life, his childhood, there doesn't appear to be signs that he was abused as a child. Are there other elements that could lead to these kinds of fetishes?

There's different types of abuse. I think a lot of times we are constantly looking for signs of physical abuse or sexual abuse, but emotional abuse is just as damaging and so is neglect. I think there are elements of that happening in Charlie's childhood where he didn't have any peers, he didn't have any outlets, and it doesn't seem like he was able to even express himself emotionally. So he had nowhere to go with that, no space to take for himself. So I can see why that would be redirected in different ways because it's repressed and then anger builds. And then, as we talked about, unresolved trauma generally leads to anger directed outward to a specific group or groups of people. And in this case, it seems like the fixation might have been on women, in particular women's anatomies.

Just an interesting little side note that I just realized his mother was pregnant at the time that he shot her. Yeah.

I also wonder, too, if that indicated another threat to him having any attention. Because if you think about the size of the family, the birth order, the fact that he's the only son, I think that might have also contributed to him feeling like, I already don't feel valued, I don't feel seen, I don't feel heard, I don't have support system. We really don't need to add more to that. But also it could also have been a fixation anatomy, and there could be a connection there. Absolutely.

As investigators searched for ways to explain Charlie's actions, they also continued to interview his loved ones. This included Charlie's older sister, Angela. Almost immediately, Angela revealed the family's dark secret that Charlie had killed their mother back in 1971. Now, if you remember, Charlie, Angela, and their father, Herbert, refused to discuss that horrible evening, even with Charlie and Angela's younger sisters. In fact, to anyone's knowledge, the only person they ever told about that night was Charlie's best friend, Jim Graves. It had been a local matter back in Indiana. There was no reason for the story to have made its way down to Florida. When Detective Hemmert heard Angela's story, he was shocked. It didn't necessarily explain the motive for killing Terry and Michelle, but it did add to the growing suspicion Charlie might have had other victims. So law enforcement began searching the FBI database for killings whose circumstances were similar to Michelle's. It didn't take them long to come across a cold case from 1989. The victim was a 38-year-old woman whose body had been mutilated and nearly decapitated, and she lived in Big Pine Key, the same little island as Charlie Brandt. Hi there, Vanessa here.

If you're enjoying crime house originals like Mind of a Serial Killer, Then you'll love another crime house show called Money Crimes, hosted by best-selling author and entrepreneur Nicole Lappin. Money Crimes is all about the dark side of finance and how to protect yourself from it, especially when it in murder. From cunning Ponzi schemes to cutthroat politics and killer con artists, you'll learn that the finance world is more dangerous than you ever imagined. Follow Money Crimes, a crime house studio's original Now. New episodes drop every Monday. Again, that's Money Crimes. Follow Now wherever you get your podcasts. And for early ad-free access, subscribe to Crimehouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. In the middle of September 2004, police discovered that 47-year-old Charlie Brandt had brutally murdered his wife, Terry, and niece, Michelle Jones. He then took his own life. Naturally, any murder suicide is horrific. But what made this case especially chilling was the savage butchery that Charlie had committed against Michelle. Further investigation revealed that Charlie not only had an obsession with Michelle, but a dark and twisted fascination with the female anatomy and necrophilia. All this led investigators to deduce that Charlie had likely killed before.

So they searched for victims killed in a similar fashion. They quickly came across a name whose case had been cold for 15 years, 38-year-old Sherry Pariscio. Sherry was born in Terre Haute, Indiana, on April second, 1951. She grew up moving between various trailer parks, and her parents were focused on teaching her skills that were more suited for surviving the streets than achieving the so-called traditional American dream. That refusal for conformity only grew as she got older. As Sherry would later write, quote, Spiritually, I didn't want to end up dead at 21 like most countrywives. So In the early 1970s, she moved to New York City. While living in New York, she spent a few years couch surfing or living on the streets. She dabbled in some Eastern philosophy and New Age thought and experimented with all kinds of drugs. It's not clear why, but at a certain point, we don't know exactly when, she'd had enough of the city. She picked up and moved down to Big Pine Key, where she lived in a little boat under a bridge. By 1989, Sherry was known around the area as the friendly, somewhat eccentric woman who preferred to live in her rowboat instead of a house.

She was the ultimate drifter, an odd wanderer around town with no family, no job, and no traditional home. And that put a target on her back.

That definitely makes her more susceptible to victimization. Because the more disenfranchized someone might seem, the less likely they're going to really investigate or look into her, whatever might happen to her.

Whatever reason anyone would have to target Cheri Parisho, she met a tragic end. Around 10:00 PM on July 19, 1989, a couple named Roy and Nedra Plant made their way to North Pine channel Bridge. They wanted to take advantage of the full moon and beautiful weather and do a little evening fishing. The plants did catch something, but it wasn't a fish. Initially, they thought that they had accidentally caught a mannequin floating face down in the water. But when they brought it closer, they realized it was the body of a woman who would later be identified as Sherry Parisho. When the police arrived, They discovered that not only had Sherry been repeatedly stabbed, but several of her organs had been removed. Her throat had also been slashed. The cut was so deep, it nearly severed her head. Investigators quickly discovered Sherry's capsized boat nearby. They were able to recover some of her possessions from it, including a bike, clothes, cigarettes, and a manuscript that said it was Sherry's autobiography. They also found DNA and fingerprints. However, DNA testing was still in its infancy in the late '80s, and it doesn't seem like the local authorities had the capacity to test any of the samples.

When they scoured through the fingerprint database, nothing matched. Over the next few months, witnesses came forward with names of potential suspects, including former lovers, suspicious locals, and men seen arguing with Sherry. However, nothing could conclusively connect these men to the murder. There was also a litany of tips and descriptions of suspicious cars in the area throughout the evening of July 19th, the night Sherry was killed. One witness even claimed to have seen a man running along the the night of the murder. The police created a composite sketch based on what the witness saw, a white male with thick dark hair and large eyes with bags under them. But they weren't able to identify a suspect matching that description. Another promising tip came from a woman who claimed she'd been receiving disturbing phone calls from an unknown man. Throughout 1989, this mysterious stranger made threatening and increasingly obscene calls. He even called her mere hours after Sherry's murder. Authorities wondered if this stalker was the same person who'd killed Sherry.

What we know about stalkers is that there's actually five different types, and When it comes to this particular instance of this woman getting disturbing phone calls, it would be interesting to know, one, who the person is, if it does turn out to be Charlie, and what the connection Charlie has to her. Then we can identify what type of stalker that would make Charlie and what the motive is.

Well, unfortunately, the stalking tip, like all the others, was a dead end. As time passed, the investigation slowed down. Life went back to normal. Before long, Sherry Parisho's murder was just another cold case. Then, in September 2004, Charlie Brandt murdered his wife and butchered his niece, and the dots suddenly began to connect. Florida investigators knew that Charlie had to be responsible for Sherry Parisho's murder. The utter savagery was disturbingly similar to Michelle Jones' death. Luckily, the police soon found two key pieces of evidence that could link him to the crime. First, Charlie looked very similar to the composite sketch of the unknown man on the highway. Second, the Brantz lived roughly a thousand yards from where Sherry's body had been found. Exactly why investigators to bother questioning the Brantz back then is a mystery. If they had, maybe they would have discovered a murderer was living in their sunny community. But to definitively link Charlie to Sherry's death, the police needed more evidence. They got it from Jim Graves, Charlie's best friend and former brother-in-law. Even though Charlie generally behaved like a normal guy, Jim had witnessed some odd behavior from him. In 1977, the two of them were over at Jim's mother's house for dinner.

The conversation eventually led to Jim's mother telling the young man about the murder of a 13-year-old girl in the nearby town of Esther. What made the story so horrifying was the fact that the girl's head had been discovered in a paint can. According to Jim, Charlie's reaction to hearing this was to burst out into a sadistic laugh. A few years after the dinner incident, Jim remembered another strange moment between him and Charlie. Shortly after Jim and Charlie's sister, Angela, divorced in the early 1980s, Jim and Charlie went fishing. Jim was overcome with emotion and said some terrible things to Charlie about her. One would imagine that Charlie would defend his older sister, even if it meant arguing with his best friend. Instead, Charlie told Jim that the perfect revenge was to, kill somebody and then eat their heart. Of course, Jim thought this was an odd thing to say, even if they weren't talking about Charlie's sister, but Jim simply shrugged it off as Charlie being Charlie. However, in the wake of Terry and Michelle's murders, Jim wondered if it was a warning sign.

This is where we can start to see that there are pieces to the puzzle of Charlie that makes what happened in the murder suicide not as surprising as it otherwise might be. It seems to me that Charlie really's use of humor in this way might have been a way to see the reaction, inoculating his best friend into understanding his internal thoughts, but asking it in a less vulnerable way in the event that Jim doesn't really perceive it well, just to see what he can get away with and just to give him an outlet to share a little bit of his internal thoughts.

Well, whatever Charlie was trying to accomplish with those comments and that humor, Jim thought he also missed a warning sign involving Charlie's wife, Terry. This story really got the police's attention. Sometime in 1991 or 1992, about two or three years after Sherry Parisho's murder, Charlie and Terry went to see Jim play guitar at a local bar. During a break, Jim noticed that Terry was acting a little odd. When Charlie left to use the restroom, Jim asked her if everything was okay. It wasn't. Terry told Jim that a few years back, she'd caught Charlie in their house's fish cleaning room, covered in blood. When Terry asked him what was going on, Charlie said he'd been preparing some filets, but Terry didn't see any fish in the room, and there weren't any in the house. Terry told Jim that Sherry Parisho's body had been discovered right after the incident in the fish room. Terry thought that maybe it was her blood she saw on Charlie. She told Jim it had been bothering her for a while, and she was thinking about calling the sheriff, but she wanted his advice first. Jim knew this was a big accusation.

He told Terry that if she went to the police and was wrong, it could ruin her marriage. And so Terry never went to the authorities. But now this statement was enough for law enforcement. In the spring of 2006, two years after Terry Michelle were killed, the authorities officially declared that Charlie Brandt had murdered Cheri Parisho. A decades long cold case was finally closed, and another victim was added to Charlie's list, and soon there would be many more. In the spring of 2006, Law enforcement officially declared that Charlie Brandt was responsible for the brutal murder of Cheri Parisho. This marked the end of a cold case that had confused and frustrated investigators for 17 years, and they suspected that Charlie had more victims like Sherry. But who else was out there? What other horrible and savage murders remained unsolved that could now be connected to Charlie Brandt? Investigators soon found another person Charlie may have killed, 12-year-old Carol Lynn Sullivan. In September 1978, Carol and her parents were living in Osteen, Florida. Carol was on the verge of becoming a teenager, and she was ready for some independence. So on the morning of September 20th, 1978, she told her mother, Joanne, that she wanted to start taking the bus to school.

Just before 07:00 AM, Carol left the house and made her way to the bus stop. Joanne watched as her daughter disappeared around the corner of the street. A few minutes later, Joanne saw the bus drive past. Satisfied that Carol was on it, she went about her day. But a few hours later, Joanne received a phone call from the school. Carol had missed her first few classes. Joanne immediately became worried. She called her husband at work, and then the police. For the next several days, Carol's family and law searched everywhere for her, but they came up empty. She had simply vanished.

I've personally never encountered parents whose children have gone missing like that in my practice, but the grief would be insurmountable. The guilt would be insurmountable. I cannot imagine what Carol and her family were going through.

Oh, no. As a parent, I can't even begin to even try to imagine. Is it healthy for someone in that situation to hold on to hope no matter how dim or try to move on and just let go, which I don't know if it's even possible to do that.

I don't think it's ever possible for a parent of a missing child to just let go and move on without closure. I think it's really subjective on a case-by-case basis as to whether or not it's healthier to hold on to hope. I know, personally for me, I would hold on to hope until I had definitive proof that there is no hope left. I think either way, having the hope allows you to continue searching, fighting, doing what you've got to do to get your baby back. But also having the closure allows you to then really go through the grieving process and move forward with a new normal. But I just can't imagine and would never, ever wish anyone to go through something like this.

Oh, no, never. Well, unfortunately, after almost two weeks of searching, Carol was finally found, and the worst had happened. Twelve days after she disappeared, a young man named Bob Gorman was out exploring St. John's Lake, which was near Carroll's house. Bob had just moved there and wanted to see an alligator. He thought the Lake would be the perfect place to see one. During his search, he noticed a rusted-looking paint can in the grass. To his horror, it contained a human skull that was quickly identified as Carroll Lynn Sullivan's. Further testing revealed that Carroll had been hit in the back of the head and that the head had been removed with either a sharp knife or a scalpel. What confused investigators, though, was how quickly the flesh had decomposed. Less than two weeks had passed since the disappearance. They didn't find any trace of chemicals that could destroy flesh that quickly, and an The animal wouldn't strip it bare like that. That meant the skull was stripped either from cutting off the flesh or through boiling the head. Investigators initially suspected that the killer might have been an unnamed local truck driver with a history of sexual battery and exposing himself to kids, but they couldn't conclusively link him to Carroll, so he wasn't arrested, and they couldn't identify any other potential suspects.

Over 20 years passed and the case ran cold until Charlie Brandt's name became the talk of Florida in the mid 2000s. Though there was zero evidence to connect Charlie to Carroll's murder, the surgical nature of the beheading gave detectives a strong sense that he might have killed her. Charlie's location at the time also hinted at his possible involvement. In the late 1970s, Charlie attended Dayton State College, which is only about a 45 drive from Oesteen. Jim Graves became convinced that Carol was Charlie's first victim. She was killed just a few months after the dinner where Charlie laughed about a girl's head being found in a paint can. If Charlie did murder Carol, then it would have been the first since he killed his mother seven years earlier. Did the story of the girl's head suddenly inspire him to kill again?

What's interesting about this is how there's all these connections in different areas to Charlie as a possible suspect that are later being pieced together. But that was actually a very common occurrence back in the '70s and '80s, where police in different law enforcement agencies didn't really connect with each other to see if there are any cold cases that match one of theirs, to see if there's a pattern. That's how so many serial killers back in those days went undetected for so long. Simply moving around allowed them to lose any trace on them. Maybe Charlie learned that early on, growing up. Every time he moved, he had to reestablish himself. After the killing of his mother, when they moved to Florida, nobody knew anything about what happened in Indiana. So Charlie got a fresh start. This might have been something that emboldened him.

Assuming if this is Charlie's first serial killing, Why would he choose a child? Do you think the story of the other little girl was an inspiration?

It could have been, but given that now he's connected to two minors and his first killing happened when he was also a minor and that was of his mother, there might be some emotional stunt that has occurred where he's stunted in a mental age where he is seeking out victims near that age range or within that age range for that reason or simply because they were easier targets, easier to overpower, easier to, and I hate to say this graphically as it is, but easier to behead. Basically, like training wheels for Charlie, which is horrific.

If Carol Lynn Sullivan was Charlie Brandt's first victim since his mother, then 20-year-old Lisa Sanders may have been his second. Lisa's death also may have been the preamble to the murder of Cheri Parisho, the Bohemian woman who lived in her boat. On December 17, 1988, seven months before Cheri was murdered, Lisa was invited to a party at No Name Key, a small island very close to Charlie's home in Big Pine Key. During the party, Lisa allegedly got into an argument with some friends and decided to leave early. The next day, Lisa was supposed to meet up with her mother. However, she didn't show. As The time passed without a word, Lisa's mom became worried and called the police. Investigators searched No Name Key and quickly discovered Lisa's body, lying in the brush not far from where the party had taken place. Like Charlie Brandt's other victims, the crime scene was horrifying. Tests revealed that Lisa had been struck in the back of the head and strangled. But what shocked the police was the fact that Lisa's organs were missing and her eyes had cut out. At the time, no suspects were identified. But 16 years later, the murders of Terry Brandt and Michelle Jones renewed interest in Lisa's death.

Investigators wondered, could this have been the work of Charlie Brandt? There was no good reason to suspect Charlie Brandt for the murder of Lisa Sanders. After all, No Name Key was barely a 10-minute drive from the island where he lived, Big Pine Key, and Lisa's body had been mutilated in the same way as his other victims. Being so close to No Name Key, Charlie would have known that the island was a popular spot for high schoolers and college kids to hang out. It's possible he stalked the party, saw Lisa suddenly leave by herself, and attacked her. However, he has yet to officially be confirmed as Lisa's murderer, because even though the crime scene bore many similarities to Charlie's other victims, it's possible a lot of the damage was caused by animals. No name key is a wildlife refuge, and investigators first found the body because they saw vultures circling over something. But if Charlie was the killer, why the 10-year gap between Carroll Sullivan and Lisa Sanders? And did the thrill Charlie may have gotten from Lisa help feed in his desire to kill Cheri Parisho a few months later?

I want to talk about that 10-year gap because it is very common for serial killers to go dormant for periods of time, and those periods range. They can range from days to months to years, and in this case, 10 years. There's different reasons for why that is. Most of the time, from what investigators and the FBI and research has shown us, is that it's because there's something critical happening in their life at that time. During that 10-year period is that when Charlie finally got his first girlfriend and finally got married and started to settle in with his wife, try to put on that mask of sanity, formulate a more normal life and appear normal to his neighborhood and his society. That's usually what explains those dormant periods.

Thinking back to our Jeffrey Domer episodes, there was a long time between his murders as well because he was trying to repress that inner darkness. Could this be a similar thing or could this be an issue of guilt as well, trying to repress those inner demons that he had?

I think it is a similar thing to Jeffrey Daumer in that he was trying to repress his inner darkness and maybe was truly wanting to be more of a pro-social part of society. The only reason why I am inclined to believe that is because he ended up taking his own life. And that's just not a common thing that we see with serial killers. The reason why he did that is something that still seems like a mystery and something I'd like to really understand. But I wonder if the grappling between the cognitive dissonance, the internal conflict of wanting to be normal, wanting to be as a pro-social member of society, being in such stark contrast to this really dark, sadistic side of him that is very much, again, the anger turned outward to a group of groups of people, very angry towards women. His patterns in his killings indicate a lot of anger and a lot of rage, and it's directed at women of different ages. So there's some misogyny, femside, something going on there as well.

I keep thinking back to when his sister said, I love you, which snapped him out of that rage when he was little.

Exactly.

It feels like that desire to be loved and then that connection to that empathy, which is so rare.

He was raised in a home of almost all women, and the only other male in the home was his father. So the need to be accepted and loved by the women in his home was probably very strong. So that part with his sister is very significant.

Well, whether or not Charlie Brandt killed Lisa Sanders, there were still more victims he was linked to. Investigators also wondered if he killed a woman named Darlene Toler, who was killed in the fall of 1995. At the time of her death, Darlene was around 35 years old and lived in Miami. Darlene struggled with drug addiction and relied on sex work in order to get by. Sometimes Darlene worked in an area called Little Havana that was known for being dangerous. On November 24th, 1995, the day after Thanksgiving, her body was found wrapped in a blanket. Like Charlie Brandt's other victims, Darlene had been decapitated and her heart had been removed. Neither of these remains have ever been found. The initial investigation provided little in the way of clues. It doesn't seem like there was any DNA or fingerprints left at the scene. The The only noticeable evidence was a few dog hairs found in the blanket. In a familiar pattern, no suspect was ever identified. But nine years later, when the story of Charlie's murder suicide broke, some detectives on Darlene's case suspected that he was her killer. Once more, it was the mutilation of Michelle Jones that seemed to link the two cases.

Luckily for them, it didn't take long for investigators to find some other interest, But in this instance, there was more to go on than that. As it turned out, Charlie kept meticulous records when it came to tracking the mileage on his truck. Detectives noticed that on Thanksgiving Day, 1995, there was a significant mileage increase, about 100 miles, the distance from Big Pine Key to Miami. But this was still circumstantial. Charlie could have driven anywhere that day. However, the police found something else that could by Charlie to Darlene. There were dog hairs in his truck. Those hairs were tested against the ones found at the original crime scene, but it's unclear what the results of those tests were. Charlie has not been officially named as Darlene Toler's killer. But if Charlie did murder Darlene Toler, how and why did he choose her? Is it possible that some unknown event triggered a sudden desire to kill? Was it connected to the snuff films he got sexual pleasure from? Is that why he chose a sex worker? He knew he could inflict pain on someone society would care little about? Or was Darlene Toler completely random?

As we go through this case of Charlie and we learn more about him and that tip about a stalker that led to a dead end, I'm inclined to believe that these are not random women. I'm inclined to believe that these are that he had fixated on from afar and worked his way up to this point in thinking about the murder-suicide, why Terry, his wife, was done in what seemed to be a rage, and his niece, Michelle, being done in the same pattern as we're seeing here, I'm wondering if Terry was the obstacle in the way of him getting to Michelle and having that moment, for lack of a better word, being able to carry out his desires on her. And that's why Terry's was a little bit more aggressive in that way. But I think that he has seen these women he's targeted these women for whatever reason, has probably been stalking them in some form or fashion, whatever that might look like, even if it's just for an hour or so. I don't think it's entirely random.

Could it also somehow be connected to his fetish for snuff films?

Yes, I think that snuff films are probably for him, something that he would frequently watch or look at in certain magazines during his sleeper periods, something to take the edge off, but also inspire him for when he does go back out on the hunt again.

Well, beyond the questions of these murders, Charlie Brandt's adult life is filled with blank or unknown periods. After marrying Terry in 1986, the information we have is broad. He worked, he fished, and he drank. Occasionally, he'd get into arguments with Terry, but it never seemed directly connected to any violence. Because of this, it's hard to fully understand why he chose his victims, if he was the one who killed them, or why he chose those times to commit murder. This unknown circles to the motive for the tragic murder suicide in 2004. As we mentioned before, there was no note left behind. There is some indication that it might have been premeditated, though. Immediately after everything happened, Charlie's father and younger sister remembered him acting a little different in their final visit just days before the murder suicide. According to them, Charlie had hugged them just a little tighter and longer, almost as if he knew he would never see them again. So if this was all planned, the murder and the suicide, why did he do it? Leslie D'Ambroja, an FBI special agent who worked on the case, believes that there may have been a few contributing factors.

First, Investigators learned that Charlie's employer was in the middle of switching ownership, which would have resulted in background checks. That meant the dark family secret that Charlie had killed his mother was likely to get out. Making matters more complicated, Charlie was suddenly spending a lot more time with Michelle Jones, someone he was secretly obsessed with. Agent D'Ambroja believes that the job situation, being stuck inside a house because of the hurricane, and Michelle's presence, created a serial killer perfect storm. But could there have been something else, some other reason?

I actually agree with Special Agent D'Ambroja's assessment on If we recall during that storm, there was a lot of insistence on Charlie's end to leave and return back to their home in the keys. But every time he insisted, another day would follow and they'd still be there together in that home. I do think that created a perfect storm because he was obsessed with Michelle, and I think he'd been trying to fight off the impulse or the desire to engage in the sadistic acts against Michelle simply because she was family. Maybe he wanted to be able to draw that line, but that did put him to the test. It further validates why he was so aggressive with Terry and how he took her life and then very meticulous and more established in his motive with Michelle.

And that fact that he was about to get that background check, he might have seen the dominoes about to fall and all of his secrets come out.

I think also, too, there was no really going back from that. How does he explain? I think he knew this was the moment I was going to get caught.

Right.

Everyone knew he was in that home together. He knew people were going to come looking. He knew there was no way to explain his way around it. I think that's what led to him taking his own life, less so than the background check, because the background check would only indicate what happened when he was 13. It didn't indicate what he had been doing because he hadn't been caught with all of those things yet.

Well, the truth is we'll never know exactly why Charlie Brandt did what he did to his wife and niece, nor will we ever know why he killed Cheri Parisho or why he may have also killed Carol Lynn Sullivan, Lisa Sanders or Darlene Toler. While the victims were all women, they were all from different walks of life, making it difficult to pinpoint what drove him to kill and mutilate them. We'll also never know how many people he killed. Over 20 unsolved cases throughout Florida have been potentially linked to Charlie Brandt. Even across the Atlantic, German and Dutch authorities have reached out about similarities in savage murder cases that had run cold. Only time will tell if a definitive connection will ever be made. For decades, Charlie Brandt was able to conceal his dark desires from everyone who knew him. But behind those glazed eyes was a butcher, an evil lurking in paradise. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next Monday as we explore the mind of a new serial killer.

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