Transcript of Winning the Moment, Not the Argument with Jefferson Fisher

Hey, I need you to pause right now. We've been taught the wrong thing when it comes to argument. You should actually never want to win an argument. And I'm getting that in this conversation with one of the best attorneys in the world. In this episode, we break down, number one, why the goal should not be to win an argument. Number two, how you should speak less but say more. And then we go into how to control yourself, how to control moments, and how to control pace. Ladies and gentlemen, make sure you buckle up. I I present to you my good friend, Mr. Jefferson Fish. Jay, how are you doing today, brother?

I'm good, Mick. It's so good to hear you, man. What an introduction. I got to get you to send that so I can frame it somewhere. That's awesome, man. It's so good to talk with you and share some stuff with your audience, brother. So I'm blessed.

Man, I'm the honored one. I'm the blessed one. Jefferson, on the show, we like to talk about your because, that thing that's deeper than your why I believe when I ask you what's your why, you're going to give me an answer, and then I'm going to say, but why. And that usually starts with because blah, blah, blah. I like skipping all that. It's like, Tell me your because. So if I were to say Jefferson, man, Today, what's your because? Why do you do what you do? What's that?

Because there will be a time where I am not on this Earth, and I want two little kids of mine to be able to know what I stood for and that things will still exist that I created that can still teach them along the way.

I love that, dude. I love that. So grounded in that. And again, I'm a huge fan of you. You started your podcast journey like March of last year, right? That's when I started mine. And you were someone that I truly looked up to. And most people that know me know, I don't listen to a ton of podcasts just because I never want to take ideas or take questions or follow guests. And that way, when my guests come on, we can be truly authentic. And I'm not asking something I heard. But yours is one that I actually listen to, subscribe to, have left reviews for because I love what you represent because you're giving insights. Your solo episode is like, Hey, I'm going to talk to you for 12, 15 minutes, and here's something you can do right now. And then when your guests are on, man, you really get something out of them. So my first question truly is, why did you know that that was what you needed to do at the time? Being, Start a podcast, get that voice, get that out there.

Because I knew that I had to do what was authentic to me. We see a lot of podcasts out there, and I'm like you, Mick, where I... Before starting my podcast, I didn't really consume hardly anything. I just didn't. Don't ask me why. I saw ones that were four hours, and I'm like, Who has the time? There's no way. I don't even have time for an hour. There's no way. I thought, there has to be some market for people who just want to hear 15 minutes during their commute and just get a little bit of something that they can apply, keep in their mind, help focus and frame their day. I thought, why don't I just do that? And it was also something that fit my life. I think there's so many times people like you and me or other creators out there feel like we have to mold our life to fit the expectation rather than taking the expectation and dissolving that down, washing it down, purifying that, and making it fit your life. When I make my podcast, they're short because that's the time I got. So not trying to make it into something.

Even like this room, and I'm sure with yours, it's not nearly as fancy as it looks. It's a small little space. This is the first time when I started this podcast that I had an actual real camera, and I had to Google every setting possible on the thing. So that's how it started, probably the same as yours, man.

Oh, absolutely, man. And obviously, it's not about me, it's about you today, but very similar. I want my message to be out there, but not even my message, the power of because. I wanted that out there. I know that everyone has a unique story or something they've overcome or a place that they've been mentally, physically, that they had to go out and say, I'm going to do this. I'm going to fight through. I think that's what the viewers and listeners appreciate with what I do. I know with what you do as well, too. Hey, cut through the fluff. Let me choose the right words and say the right words, which is where I want to lead to. You teach the power of words and why they're so important in communication. Talk us through that journey a little bit of why words matter, and not just words, but the right words.

Even the timing of words and the tone of words matter. Let's just say the word okay. What is almost universally accepted in most languages. Okay? Okay. We get that. It's a thumbs up, it's a sign of approval, maybe understanding, some type of quick connection. But imagine if your child, instead of saying, Okay, said, Okay. Now all of a sudden you feel different. Or maybe your spouse or your boyfriend/girlfriend goes, Okay. Just the difference in the sound of the word, communicate something entirely different, whether it's okay or okay. There is all kinds of ways that we can communicate different things without changing the word. So that's one. Second of all, the impact of your words is that they cement in memories. I'm willing to bet that anybody listening right now can remember a time when they were on the playground and there was a kid that came up to them, maybe a group, and they can probably still remember that person's name who said something to them, made fun of their shirt, made fun of their glasses, called them a name, made fun of their hair, their skin, their shoes, whatever it is. It created an insecurity in them that they have remembered throughout their entire life.

There's so many things that we forget in life. I don't remember what I had for breakfast. I don't remember all kinds of things that happened in my childhood. But I remember the person who said one thing to me that it kept with me and created an insecurity. Everybody I think everybody has that. And so not only can you communicate different things and just keeping the same word, any word that you choose has the power to last long after you exist, which is a wild thing. You could remember things that teachers told you that you've kept with you, or a grandparent told you that you've kept with you, and they're no longer on this Earth. And yet the memory of their words live on. So the ripple effect of words will always last longer than we'll ever live to see.

And that's why you are who you are. I know as an attorney, you're never going to use the word expert or guru, because that can get you in trouble sometimes. But Jefferson, you are the guy. You are the person. When we talk about effective communication and why words matter, you're the person that I look up to. And usually, when my guests come on that have written books, I usually wait towards the middle or the end of the episode. This book, The Next Conversation Matters, or The Next Conversation, Are You, Let's Talk More, is so impactful that I want to go right into it because number one, it is now New York Times best seller, so kudos to that. That speaks volumes of what the book is. Again, The Next Conversation, Argue, Less, Talk, More. I'm going to have links in the show notes and description. But this book, especially for a trial lawyer, for a trial attorney, stop me at just the title, because by nature, you should argue more, you being an attorney.

Right? Right.

So talk to us about just the title, why you chose the title. Why you chose the title? And again, it grabbed me because I knew who you were, and I was like, Oh, argue, let's talk more. I've got to go into it. So talk us about the title.

The people who watch my content and the ones that I am just incredibly blessed to be able to share a passion and a gift of mine, is they watch my content not to handle the last conversation. They watch it to figure out how to handle the next conversation. And I saw that time and time again in comments and messages, it doesn't matter what social channel. And people saying, Hey, I just used this thing that you taught. It totally worked. Or, Oh, my gosh, I used this word and had a totally different outcome, and this really worked. I can't believe this really worked. And they were just continually to dig and digest the content to handle the next situation, the next conversation. So that's how I got there. And the argue less talk more is something that I've always said that I help people with. It was one of the first things I did when you put in your where they call it, your heading, your bio. It's like, what do I really help people with? It helps to distill that into, for me, a help statement. What do I help people with? And I came up with, well, I help people argue less and I help them talk more, which is Very contradictory, like you mentioned, for an attorney because people feel like we get hired to argue, and we argue a whole lot, which is partly true.

You do have to have a lot of written and legal arguments throughout the profession. But yeah, that is something that I like contradictory things, and contradiction piques a lot of curiosity in people. Here's a guy who's an attorney. I could be wearing a suit and tie. I could be doing it with all of my degrees and my law books and everything behind a desk. Or here's this guy who's in his vehicle in a T-shirt with his kid's car seating the back, and he says he's an attorney, and he's talking about helping me not argue with people. There is that sense of what's going on here that I really enjoy.

Man, and we're going to go into a lot of the book, and I'm going to go into some of My Mentors, because a lot of the topics that you discuss in the book are lessons that I've learned from mentors. And so I want to start with, one, how you set the book up. So again, for everybody that's watching or that's listening, the next conversation, by So far, one of the best books you'll ever read is something that you can go to literally daily. But you started out with breaking the book down into the essentials and then the application. So I know as a reader, okay, the first three chapters or the first three parts, you're just going to show me, Hey, these are the essentials that I need to have the next conversation or to set everything up. And then I've got the application. So I've learned it. Now, how do I put it into use into what I do? And so I love that set up because, one, it made it very easy for me to read because I knew how things were going. So I wanted to applaud you for that. Thank you.

I told you offline, the story of you and Bobby Leprey. That was so fire. To start the book off with that story in that setting, I was captured from moment one. So for the viewers and listeners, let's walk through that first chapter, not giving the whole book away, the whole chapter away, but let's set that up so that they understand you and Bobby. Big Bobby, as I've named him in my mind.

Yeah, I called him Big Bad Bobby Leprey. Now, that wasn't his real name. I couldn't use his real name. Of course. It It was very similar to his real name. For those listening, imagine a guy... I'm 6'1. I barely came to this man's chest. I'm talking the human that you look at and you think, Man, am I physically deficient? I paled in comparison to him physically. Usually, when you sit down and I'm deposing Bobby, so if you don't know what a deposition is, it's a chance for me to ask questions, any attorney, to ask questions of a witness or any person under oath before trial. Trial is not like you see on TV. There's no surprises. You know exactly what witnesses are going to be called, and you know exactly what those witnesses are going to say. How do you know what they're going to say? Because you've deposed them, and you've already had a chance to ask them questions so that there are no surprises. A lot of times, you ask the same questions in deposition as you do a trial. Also, you may not call that person to trial because you find out by deposing them, they really don't know anything.

It's a chance for attorneys to do some fact finding. Well, Bobby was somebody who was a witness to, let's just say, a scene. I was going to need to ask him some questions about who was there, what time, what did he see. That was the current situation. He's sitting across from me at the table in the conference room. He's humongous. He's sitting there, elbows on the table. And imagine a man who looks very upset and unhappy to be there. That's the setup of Bobby.

That's amazing. The title of that chapter is Never Win an Argument. Again, just hearing that, I sat there and I was like, I have to see where this is going. But then the practicality of that is true. You're not setting yourself up to win argument. You're setting yourself up to connect, to show that you're listening, to get the empathy there. But then when we talk about the essential, some of the things like controlling yourself, controlling the pace, you're setting everything up there, man. So again, that chapter is fire. So again, I had to tell you that to your face because it grabbed me. My wife, even with her organization, she's ordered this book for her leaders. And it's something that they go through as well, So now I want to go into the application piece, and here's where I'm going to talk about some of my mentors. So control yourself. I want you to talk through the essence of what that means high level. Again, not to go deep into the book because everybody needs to buy the book. But when I read that chapter, I immediately thought of Robert Irvine. So celebrity chef Robert Irvine, one of the greatest leaders that I know that talks about impact.

But he always says, Mick, everything starts with controlling yourself first. So I'd love to get Jefferson Fisher's version of what it means to control yourself.

Yeah. The application takes that story of Bobby and outlines how I walked through that situation with him, which ended with he and I, hugging, really learning that he's a human behind the surface. I broke the application into three sections. One is how to say it with control, two is say it with confidence, and three is say it to connect. In control, like you said, it always has to do with, instead of trying to focus on how to control them, first deciding to control you. Because if I don't control my breath, if I don't control my tone, if I don't control my mindset and the questions and things that I'm doing, nothing else works. I don't care how many videos of mine you've seen. I don't care how many other tools you try to implement. Nothing is going to work if you are not first grounded, settled, controlled, and regulated in a healthy way. That is the first outline of it where we talk and I teach, how do you control yourself? What's the best way to do that that we know of using neurobiology, using science, using what I've seen work time and time again in my own practice?

How does that happen to where you can make sure that the conversation is going to end better than had it gone had you not?

What are a couple of tips for the viewer or listener right now that's like, Oh, I need that? Mick talks a lot about emotional intelligence in the first two steps or knowing yourself and then self-regulation. Jefferson, what are a couple of things people can do right now to control them?

What I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. Meaning, when somebody says something to you that makes you prickle, makes you get bowed up, so to speak. Let your breath be the first word. Where your first word would be, put a breath in its place. If you're listening right now, we can do it together. It's what they call a double inhalation. You're going to breathe through your nose twice. It's not exaggerated. It's not weird. I teach all of my clients and prep my witnesses to do it, and it works really well. So you're going to go about two seconds in through your nose. One more at the top, then out through your nose. And just right now, listening to me, I bet your shoulder softened a little bit. I bet all of a sudden you're realizing the breath that you're taking. When they say breathwork, all it is is just simply a focus and realizing that you're breathing because throughout the day, we hold our breath. If you've ever been talking to somebody and somebody goes, Why are you yelling? And you go, I'm not yelling. It's because you've been holding and pressuring that breath, which puts you in a low-grade state of anxiety because your body is saying, Hey, you're suffocating me here.

I feel like I'm drowning here. And so that's why that air has nowhere else to go but out and to yell and to say something is wrong when people have anxiety or panic attacks. And so use your breath to regulate yourself. And it always make sure that you don't get emotionally flooded. Your listeners are very intelligent, and they know all about the fight or flight and how you can get emotionally flooded. And once that happens, it's gone. At that point, it's Jesus take wheel because you don't know what in the world is going to happen at that point. And it keeps that mindset. So one's your breath. That's the best thing to do to naturally regulate yourself. There won't be anything better than that. Number two, it's simply your mindset to ask yourself questions. And this is what I teach. When you're in that difficult conversation, have something to learn, not something to prove. And I promise you that's going to end with a much better conversation. Because too many times, if you're listening, and you've ever had this moment where somebody gets upset at you, and they say something that's challenging your authority, and you have this thought of, I think you must have done for God who you're talking to.

I think you forgot who you're talking to. Let me remind you who you're dealing with here. I think you don't know. As soon as you get into that mode, you've lost. Forget it. You have no control over where this is going to go, because at that point, your emotions are controlling it. You have no train. But instead of having that, How dare you say that to me? It's a flip of the mindset that says, Thinking in your head of, I wonder what's happening here. I wonder why they're saying that. I wonder what's going on. There's something I'm missing here. There's something else that's going on that you're starting to get to the root of the issue rather than just dealing with the symptoms of, let's say, the leaves of a tree. You're focusing on the roots. You're focusing on the true problem. That always is what's going to shorten the argument and end up being a better conversation.

I was writing some things down because I needed that, too. Even though I teach emotional intelligence, it also doesn't mean that I'm not a student continuing to learn. So thank you for that, man. I needed it.

Absolutely. Hey, thanks, brother. I think that speaks to a really good point for all our audiences, and that is you and I, we're continually learning. I mean, that's the part of it. Anybody who says that they're an expert in something, knows that the more you learn about it, the less you know. And so you can just continue, and that doesn't matter what subject. So for me, I continually dig and absorb and notice interactions, go, Oh, that That's really cool. And same for you when you run into situations and you go, Oh, okay, I see a bump in my meter of my knowledge of emotional intelligence. We're always learning.

Yes, sir. The next two chapters chapters in the application. I learned this through you and then also from my mentors, Damon John and Chris Voss. And it's just so timely because I know Chris Voss did an endorsement for you. Really good A good friend of mine. As a leader, as a communicator, you also need to understand how to control the moment and control the pace. And if there's nothing more powerful in your book, Jefferson, it is those two chapters because when I told you that my wife, this is a part of what she does with her leaders at her company, it's those two chapters that they spend most of their time on. How do you control the moment as a leader and control the pace for your organization So talk through that from your perspective, controlling the moment, controlling the...

I love that you picked up on that. That brings me so much happiness because I absolutely agree. That section of that chapter to me is by far one of the most potent things you can do for your communication, and you're leveling up your leadership. When it comes to controlling the moment and controlling the pace, they're related to each other. Think of a time where, let's say you're at the house, and you and your wife or your spouse, your husband, you all are arguing. Then they say something that gets you to want to react in some the way. The faster you go, the faster you go back and forth, the less control you have. But if I slow it down, the more space I've added and the more we've regulated. That's the power of pauses. So when you control the pace, that is slowing everything down. So specifically on pace, what does that mean? What I teach in prep a lot of my clients for, because I'm sending them to the wolves, really, for people to try and discredit them, hurt their credibility, to call them out as a liar, whatever it is to help the other side's case, is I will continually say, You are the one that controls the pace of the conversation, not them.

Meaning, people listening, hear this. Nobody can make you say anything that you don't want to say. Nobody can make you say anything on their time frame. You're the one that controls when you speak. You're the one who controls if you speak at all, and you control what you speak. When you realize that you're the one that has that power, you're the one that has that. I don't care what the other person says. I get to choose if I respond at all and when I respond. What I will teach, and what I've seen worked so beautifully and heightened times of conflict is just a pause. A five to second pause totally changes the game. For example, let's say that somebody, we talk about this in the later chapters, we dig into this. Somebody saying something that's mean to you. I'm saying they say something that's rude or belittling. Rather than firing back and throwing something right back, which does what? Escalates it even more. You just imagine it drops. You just see it on a piece of paper, and then you drop the paper. It just falls to the ground and you're looking at it. Imagine looking at whatever they just said and looking at them as if, Are you sure?

Is that what you wanted to say? You give that 5 to 7 seconds of nothing, and all of a sudden, the dynamic changes. Now, you're the one who sounds in control, and the other person sounds desperate. Now, how many times have you been in that argument and you're wanting somebody to say something else mean and they don't? All of a sudden, you're the one left holding it. There's nothing special. You just chose to add silence, which then controls the pace and then ultimately allows you to control that moment, make sure that you're the one that's confident, controlled, and not grasping for it. So the more when you say hurtful things, you give away your control. Every time, you're just giving it away.

Jefferson, man, I could literally talk to you all day.

Same, man. I'm loving this.

I could pick your brain literally all day. So here's what I'm going to do for the people that are listening, watching in my true followers know that I do this a lot. So the first 20 people that message me the next conversation, and I don't care which platform, and just know I get like a thousand of these, but it's the first 20, right? The first 20, I'm going to send you a copy of the book. So Jefferson, I'm going to order copies. The first 20 that do that, I'm going to send. But everyone else, here's what I really need you to do. I don't care if it's Amazon, Books of Millions, Barnes & Nobles, whatever. Go order a copy of the book online. But then do me a huge favor. Go to a local bookstore and then go get a copy for someone on your team or someone in your family. And what I want to do, and Jefferson, I'll figure out when I'm going to this, but I want to have the next conversation, Mini Virtual Mastermind. And we're going to talk. So if you buy this book, and then you also get another copy for a colleague, a family member, a peer, whoever, we're going to talk We're going to talk about the lessons learned.

We're going to talk about strategies to implement things from this book because this book is that powerful. And everybody knows, I don't do this. But this book is that important. I mean, everyone knows modern leadership is my thing. There are so There are so many great principles and amazing principles in this book that I want this book. I don't know if I'm starting a book club, Jefferson or not, but I want this book to be the topic of, I don't know if it's going to be Q1, Q4, but my power circle, we're going to get together and we're going to break down this book as a team, as a family. You got to go purchase it first. You got to go purchase it first.

Man, I don't have the words, man. That sounds so cool. I'm honored, I'm blessed, and I'm pumped. Let's do it. Can't wait.

No, I mean it, man. I don't do this a lot, but this book really is principles for modern leaders. I mean, it's conversations that we're not having that are so simply understood. And I think a lot of times, simple, we take for granted. We're looking for buzzwords. We're looking for complex theory. No, you don't, because those things you can't implement. What Jefferson teaches you, you can implement today. And I promise you my wife's company, which I can't say publicly, but my wife's company is a prime example that implementing this can change the culture, and it can give you what you need as a leader, the blueprint, the strategy. So get this.

That's awesome, man. Thanks, Big.

You got it. All right, Jeffrey, so I'm going to get you out of here on my quick five. Quick five, rapid fire. All right, so you're an attorney by trade. You got a big case. What's your coffee order? Where do you get it? Is it just black or you a latte? Where are you doing?

Oh, You know what's been hitting me lately is a vanilla oak milk latte. Never thought I'd like oak milk, but it's good. I like it.

Hey, that's me, too. I'm on the oak milk train.

Are you really? Yeah, my wife got me into that. She was like, You start it. And I was like, I don't want oak milk. And then, sure enough, I got on the oak milk, and that's what I drink now. It was great. Vanilla oak milk latte. That's my jam. Wow.

We have too much in common, brother. Too much in common. I've always wanted to ask you this question. There's a lot of movies, there's a lot of films that depict corporate and the drama and the stories. What's one film that you know that actually gets it right?

I'd say one of the best is it's an older... It's a black and white movie. It's called 12 angry men. And what it's about, it's not about the court at all, in the actual courtroom. It's about the jury deliberation. And it's old school and it's awesome. And the whole movie see is twelve men that are in the jury room debating on a case and how the impact of everybody influences what they say and how comes the evidence. And through that, you see emotions, individual prejudices, you see individual traumas, and you see individual fears in each of the people. And someone who's, Well, what about this? Well, I saw it. Can you see when they had glasses? They weren't wearing it, but they had the indents. Maybe they were trying to look younger. What did you see when they... I didn't know if that emotion was real, and they're talking it out. That right there is probably one of the most realistic things that actually happens in our modern day jury, even to this day. It's a wonderful movie, and it's not long. It is black and white, but I highly recommend it.

Okay. All right. I'm going to add that to my list. I'm going to check it out in a couple of minutes.

It's a cool thing. Yeah. All right. Okay.

We talked Let me talk about your coffee order before a big case. What's your music playlist? What's one song that you need to listen to when you know you've got to go in and you've got to be calm and you know you've got to control that thing?

Oh, Well, let me make sure. If I have a big trial, I'm not drinking any coffee or snack. I have a big trial coming up, it's barely water. You know what I mean? My appetite's suppressed. But let's say it's a speaking engagement or something, I'll drink some coffee and we'll rock it. But in terms of playlist, I love that. If I need to focus, it's always James Taylor. I grew up on James Taylor, Jim Crocey, singer-songwriter type stuff. And I just love that era because that's what my dad grew up on. So if I want to be calm, I'm listening the Sweet Baby James. That's what I'm listening to. Now, if I need to pump myself up, I got all kinds, and it could range to something. You never know. It really could go from the Killers to Cardi B. Who knows? But I have a very wide, diverse range that I love listening to. That is my hobby. My secret hobby is I love finding new artists and new songs. It doesn't matter what. It would probably blow people's mind, the categories of music I listen to. It's awesome.

I I love it. Two more. What's one habit that you swear by every day?

Habit that I swear by every day.

Like a routine or something that you've got to do every day.

Well, one thing that I've really enjoyed these last few months, and I will continue to do it, is I got myself a clock to keep in my bed as my alarm, and I don't bring my phone to bed. I don't even bring it in the bedroom. It has been so awesome. I go to sleep so much faster. When I wake up, I'm waking up. I'm not reaching for my phone and scrolling or keeping myself up. I'm getting the screen away from me. I will say that has changed a lot of my ability to sleep and feel rested and feel focused rather than immediately picking up my phone and allowing my thoughts to think of millions of people. You know what I mean? Just being present and going, What can I fix my kids for breakfast?

I love it. I love it. So last question, speaking of kids, what's one lesson that you've learned in leadership by being a father?

Being a safe place. As a father, what I've learned is that kids need to see you model recovery. The kids need to see Their dad, I think especially, say, I'm sorry. They need to hear their dad say, You know what? I could have been kinder. I could have said that nicer, couldn't I? They need to hear their dad apologize. I think so many men out there never heard their father apologize or certainly own any accountability for things that they did or said. To have my children, when I make mistakes, they need I think it's even more so that when I come on too strong or I mess up, that they hear me say, I'm sorry, and they hear that I am not perfect and that I'm working on things. I think that's the same thing in business leadership. You will trust your workers, your employees, your staff will trust you more when you admit your mistakes, when you say you're sorry, when you say, You know what? I I sent an email earlier this day that sounded pretty short, and I was just in a bad mood, and that's not on you, that's on me.

Just that right there, to be able to take some accountability and ownership, is what's going to lead to more trust. Trust is the true persuader. Trust is the true bond that is going to ultimately bring connection and depth to your organization.

I love that, brother. I love that so much. Jefferson, again, I know how busy you are, man. I just appreciate you took a few moments out of your to talk to me, the viewers of this news. I can't thank you enough. I could say, Where can people find and follow you? But he's Jefferson Fisher. If you don't know that, then that's a you problem. But jeffersonfisher. Com, Again, the next conversation. Message me the next conversation. I'm sending 20. Go support it. I'm going to make sure that we have a mastermind around that topic, around the book, and we're going to explore it together. It's going to change your life personally, but more importantly, if you are a business leader, it is the book that everyone in your organization needs to have. Jefferson, brother, I appreciate.

Thanks, man. It is my true honor and blessing, brother. Really.

You got it. For all the viewers and listeners, remember, your because is your superpower. Go unleash it. You've been plugged into Mic Unplug. Don't just listen, take action. Rate and subscribe. Follow me on social and get the full experience at michuntofficial. Com. Keep leading, and most importantly, keep dominating.