Transcript of Amanda Knox: Accused While Abroad with Attorney Shannon Goldstein

Hello, and welcome to Juicy Crimes. We are here in Lekita with my sister, Shannon McDonald Goldstein, attorney at law, specialty in criminal defense. And also you now work in... How would you describe your position now?

Juvenile dependency.

Juvenile dependency. So a wide variety of cases she has worked on. And she has done many episodes of Juicy Crimes in the past with me on my Patreon, but now it is for everyone to enjoy. So one of the cases I wanted to explore, which is very much in the The News, yet again, is the case of Amanda Knox, which there is an eight-part series on Hulu. A few episodes were released on August 20th, and now each week there's another. And it's her story based on her book. She and Monica Lewinsky have joined forces, and are executive producers, which is really interesting. And just to give you the plain basics, Amanda Knox was an American column College student who went to Italy, like many people do, I believe, like her junior year of College to study. And in those programs, your son went to Barcelona.

Yeah. Matthew went to Barcelona.

And he's not fluent in Spanish. You don't have to be fluent in the language. My friend did French. She didn't have to be fluent in French when she went 30 years ago.

I think Matthew was really proud of himself when he knew how to order the food.

Okay. That was the big accomplishment. So the classes and things in those cases are done in English. Correct. Yes. However, it seems that she could speak it somewhat okay or was picking it up. So she's there. She has a cute apartment with a couple other girls, one being named Meredith, who I think she was from England. Correct. She was from England. And it's super cute town of... How do you pronounce it?

Pergulia? Yeah. I think that's Pergulia.

We are going to mess up tons of Italian words. You feel free to comment and say that we're messing them up. We're not going to try it. We're doing our best. And she got this boyfriend named Rafaela that she had only met eight days prior to the a day that then changed her life, in which after spending the night out with him and coming home to shower and get cute, she notices, according to the show, a giant shit in the toilet.

Well, first she notices that the front door is open.

Right. Yeah.

And then that's creepy. She's like, Hello, hello, hello. Nobody's there. And she just doesn't notice anything out of place. I think the first time she noticed anything that seemed out of place, according to the series, is a So there was a little what looked like blood on the sink. And so she thought that maybe it was one of her ear piercings.

Okay. Right. Yeah. When you take out an earring and you're like, Oh, my God, that did not do well with my ear today.

And you have a dot of blood. Right. And then they show her taking a shower, and then she comes out and she looks out on the mat, and apparently, she never noticed that the mat was covered with blood. And then she still doesn't really think of anything because she thinks it's more of a time of the month type of thing.

Of maybe Of maybe the roommate because they all shared the bathroom. Right.

And then for some reason, yeah, then she notices the poop. And I guess these were girls that if they shit, they didn't shit, not flush, which is typically more of a male thing.

Unless you were, because this is juicy crimes, you Guys, and it's coming from Point of view. You know who was accused of that? Not shitting and not flushing. Who? Brittany Spears, back in the day. Yeah, there was a story about that, numerous stories of where she just wouldn't flush. And then we did an entire After Lately episode about it when I was at Chelsea Lately, because there was someone in the girls bathroom that was a... There was someone who was constantly not flushing. Really? In the women's bathroom. We found out who it was. And did you? We did a Juicy Crime on it. We did.

And did you ever confront the accuser? Or not the We knew, and then...

Okay, it was this girl that was, allegedly, I'm not going to say allegedly. She was a short-lived assistant. I'm just going to say that. I'm not going to say who it was for. And the reason we know is Because when I walked in yet again to that bathroom, there was a sticky, like this, okay? Fold it up, and it had fallen into the toilet. Because she's doing With writing on it. She's doing work while she's sitting. So I did get it. I picked it out. I took the piece of paper. I let it dry out. And it was a flight information for the person she was working for. We matched it up. We're like, Who's going on this flight? So then we knew she is the assistant. She wrote down the flight number. She was doing her work. She's shitting and not flushing.

We'll So do you think that maybe she only didn't- Can you stop thinking about a defense attorney?

She fucking doesn't flush, okay?

There's no excuse. No, but maybe she didn't flush that time because the paper accidentally fell in, and she knew that the paper was not disposable, and that could have started- Shannon, a tiny piece of paper like this is disposable.

It was smaller than this.

It was a Post-it.

She might have thought that was- So then I did it, and we actually did a reenactment for after lately, which then I was accused of being a disgusting person. And And I was like, I like true crime, and I'm a mother. So shit does not scare me, even if it's not mine or my kids, or my offspring, or my dog.

And I'm pretty sure you've dug out shit in the past for your family, correct?

I mean, yeah. I've never I'm scared of shit. I've changed babies that aren't mine, a babysat, like baby shit, any shit. It doesn't really... And I was going to solve this, and I wanted to get a gold star at this So we did realize who it was. I don't think we ever confronted her, but she eventually left. She also was lying about a star from Friends that she was fucking. But let's get back to the crime, which is a real murder. So she sees that, and she's like, Whatever. And according to the series, she goes off and meets again with Rafaela, who comes to the house because she says, I'm a little freaked out. Can you come over? And even when she reaches out to her friend about being freaked out, the friend jokes about it. They're jokingly, Oh, really? Something's badly happening. So I jump to conclusions. Jumping to, we then find that her roommate in which the door was locked, dead body, is found. Now, I just want to jump back to the very beginning of the show. Okay. It is such a weird tone. Yes, I agree. I'm like, What is this?

It's basically the beginning of a rom-com when they're like, and there's a voiceover, and they're like, Let me tell you how this started. And I'm like, What? So it starts out with... All of a sudden, it's like, My mom was this person. My dad was this person, and they made me. It's literally like the TikTok. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? And then she's like, And I was always that A kid that was like, Hey, everybody, I don't want to travel. And I was like, this is- I thought it was- This is like- Whoever thought of that, maybe she... I saw one interview where she's like, I want... It's been almost 20 years because the crime happened in 2007. It's almost been 20 years. She is free now, and we're going to walk through it all. But she's been married for a while. She has two small children, and of course, doing podcasts with her husband and stuff, which is and an author. And I think she wanted to have that. I would be surprised if maybe they were like, I don't know. I don't know who decided that that was a thing.

I think she was trying to introduce herself as someone that I don't have these deep-seated issues. I didn't have a troubling past. I think she was trying to put that out ahead of time to let the audience know this is why the trauma was even greater, because I live this this pretty seemingly normal life. But I agree.

I think the tone is really weird. Good point. But trying to be... I guess I'm just adverse to people that are not funny, that then later in life think that they're funny, whether it's a housewife doing ridiculous sketches on TikTok, though they have every right to do it. It's just like... I don't know. There's just something about it where I'm like, Can you stick to your lane? But I get it.

I think what was weird for me, too, is that it's pretty clear the show goes on. I think that we're only into three episodes as we're giving this podcast. But they do the same thing with the prosecutor. They tell him this weird background story, too. Yes, you're right. It's pretty clear that they're giving background as to maybe why these two people had such a different take on this, unfortunately, this horrible crime.

I'm going to say in the little research I've done and just seeing people review it and I don't think this is really being that well received. I don't really think it's too long. I think there's too much Italian speaking with subtitles.

There is a lot.

And a lot in the beginning. And I'm like, I think I would have just done Italian accents and just had it in English with the detectives and everybody else. But maybe they really need to do that because that was her perspective of not understanding. I get that. But for the storytelling at home, I think it loses people.

That might be the case, but I definitely think that that is the big... Because everyone's like, My God, how could you have gotten this so wrong? I think there's a lot of people that are like, Why didn't you get in a lawyer sooner? I think there's a lot of people, if you look back at the case, you would have handled it better. And so I think she's trying to show how it got just completely out of control from her perspective, which I think they do a pretty good job on that.

So as someone that was following this case, every time there was, because it went on for so long, just to give the basics, she does get convicted with her boyfriend, along with another man, Rudy, for doing the crime, and the prosecution thought that the three of them were involved and built that case. They thought they were into a sex crazy thing, and a sex trist or sacrifice or something went wrong or it was intentional. And Meredith has died in this, which is really crazy when you think that she was just a cute college girl a couple of years ago, and then she'd only known this guy for eight days. So really, that you're going to meet and get into this sick shit within eight days of just being a new couple. And so in doing that, I think we're watching this. And back in the day when there were 2020s and date lines and stuff, when I first heard about it, it really was her initial reaction when the cops come and they're filming her, and she's kissing Raphael, and she's not just kissing him, and he kisses her head and holds her. They are multiple kissing.

Like, Like, almost ready to slip tongue. At least that's what they showed in the movie. And if this is her movie, I think she's portraying what really was seen. I remember seeing way too much sexual affection right after the murder. And so initially, that's what turned America Media, Everybody, certainly the Italians, against her was this moment, which I've talked about this before, but there's been moments in watching true crime where an isolated incident of someone laughing, or even if it was Karen Reid laughing or something. During your trial, can you not laugh for the next four years? Can you not be seen and joining a tuna fish sandwich if you're on trial for murder? But this was the day of. This was the day of, and it did look weird.

Well, I think now we know a little bit more about trauma. I don't even think back in 2007, there was really enough Not even from America's perspective of how people can react to trauma. There was pretty much one view, and this clearly was not the view. Because I think they do a pretty good job on the show. They show the other roommates, the other people crying, freaking out. It was almost like it hadn't hit her yet. And then there's times later on in the show where she says, Is this really true? Did they really find a body? It was almost like she hadn't really come to terms with it yet.

Because they had to break open the roommate's door, and that's when they saw that there was a body covered over a sheet. And one of the things that the prosecutor said was, Well, it's more likely that a female killer will cover a body versus a male killer. And there's no facts to that. Correct.

And most people would say, Yeah, probably. But you're going to convict somebody on that? Yeah.

I remember in another case of... Remember the Specter case, Phil Specter, who was convicted of killing this young girl. He said that she got to his house for the first time after meeting her in a bar, and she ended up killing herself with his gun. But then there was all this testimony that he would play with guns and have women put guns in their mouths and everything. And one of the things was, women, especially very attractive women, very rarely will end their life like that, destroying their face. So it makes sense. But is there really a Stanford study on it? I don't know. But I always thought, well, that makes sense. It's like, oh, that makes sense. But it's not a fact. It's like an opinion. So the The one roommate's boyfriend or somebody breaks open the door, they see they have the police coming. We see the sad make-out stuff. And this is where there's been so much written on this and done it. We are not experts. We did not read every book. But where I was confused in the show, it wouldn't show it, and maybe this didn't happen. Wouldn't you call your mother and father first and say, I cannot believe it.

My My roommate is dead. She's dead. Can you guys come here? Can you be here? I wouldn't be assuming I would be a thought of the murderer, but I would be like, I'm not staying here, clearly. I'm not going to stay here another night. And my roommate's dead, and I'm 20 years old. What?

I think she did call them, but she told them, Don't come yet, because she felt like, I'm a witness, and you're being, Of course. And then there was this weird scene that They call the police, but the police that come are more of a lower-level police. And they're coming in because they found the phone. They found Mara's phone. And of course, at this point in time, we don't know who killed. And then they seem like, Well, what do you mean the phone? And then you have the loss in translation, and they seem weird and nervous, and why are you here so soon? Those police officers said, They're acting odd because they called us, or they say they called us, but they act like they were surprised to see us. And I think they were surprised to see us because they came so quickly because they were not the police officers they expected to see at that time. So there's all those little behavioral issues that seem odd. And then we find out that the other roommates that I think are maybe from Italy or from Germany or other areas of Europe don't particularly like Amanda.

It almost It almost seemed like of the four roommates, Amanda and Meredith, or at least the way they portray it, were very, very close. And maybe they were close because they both spoke English.

Right. Yeah. They were immediately not on her side or saying, Oh, she would never, or anything like that. And so then she goes to the police station, and this is where the loss in translation, and just like anybody when you're American, the berating of long, long questioning to the point where then you might do a false confession, you might say the wrong thing, even if you're the real house of sea, you might say the wrong thing in the back of a car after filming her two days straight and being confused, and then say, well, no, that was a false confession. I didn't mean to say that. And so that happens. And that's where she, which is this part was so interesting, where She implicates her boss named Patrick Lumambi, because she worked at a bar. Right. And so that's important to the case because later on, by just saying that, just saying it in... Don't you think that's crazy that then they accused her and convicted her of defamation just because she said it might be this person in a confessional. I know it's a different country, but isn't that crazy?

Well, it's crazy, and she does feel guilty about it. I think it's crazy because that is the product of the interrogation. And the way they show it is they're literally bombarding her so much to the point where she was like, I don't know if I really remember. I remember seeing him. Why did I say that? And it was so weird because he says, I don't think you need to work tonight. She's like, Great. See you later, which obviously in America means-On a text. Yeah, on a text. We'll see you later, or the way it's translated in Italian, they interpret it as, I'll see you later tonight when we have this-Sextress, or whatever. Sextress, and maybe something will go terribly wrong. It's so crazy. But then she keeps seeing his name and his name, and she's thinking, because they're also leading, Give us something, and then we'll release you. There's always that innuendu. And now in the And the show, by the time she actually says it, they give her, of course, a statement that's written all as a confession. It's in Italian. We don't know yet. I think she even mentioned earlier, I can't really...

I understand it, or I can speak it and understand a little bit. I don't read it. So of course, it's an Italian, and she just signs it. She signs it because she's numb, really. It's almost an out-of-body experience when you have all this... Even to the point where I think the translator is jumping in on the whole interrogation, which, of course, if that ever happened, that's ridiculous. You don't have seven people just jumping on somebody, but that's the way it's portrayed.

And so it's such a long situation with... Then, of course, the parents finally are like, What? And they're trying to get attorneys from America over there. But it is off and running, and it is the hottest story in Italy of like, what... It sells tabloids, it sells... It's click bait. I mean-Right. It's definitely-any story that... I mean, like in a Megan Markle's defense, when somebody puts something with Megan Markle or Taylor Swift in any story, then that does get a click. So there are editors that just tell their writers, no matter what, we saw it with OJ, every night on Hard Copy, this person, Cato. Cato had a friend from college that we're going to speak to. Like, whatever it is. So it was juicy. And there was this element that Italy being Roman Catholic that started Catholicism, essentially, that it's a more conservative place, and they were out to get this slut, this American slut, that was screwing this guy after knowing him only for a few days, and they were into some sick shit that went awry.

It was very much like the Scarlett Letter. I think a lot of it was, I mean, looking now back at it, almost like the crazy immigrant that comes to Europe. And even though Meredith was also an immigrant to Italy, she was still in Europe. But we have a totally different hemisphere person coming in, and it's this... I agree, it's very salacious. I think at different times, they ask her to write down how how many partners she has. At this time, I think she's 20. And I think she write something like seven partners down, but then they turn it into she had seven partners since she's been here, and she may have only been here six to eight months, and that's not what she was saying. She was writing her partner since she, I think, became sexually active at 18.

So did she have 20 or did she have seven?

She had seven. But I think- Where did the 20 come from? I don't know. I did not... That's not something I heard. I heard seven, but maybe they just added to it.

Oh, yeah.

But I think the What she indicated was, In this time, I had seven, which, of course, to them, they're going to say it's too much. But then you couple with the roommates who said she was... I think they mentioned that she was bringing guys over every night, and then Until she met maybe Raffaele. So, yeah, she might have been enjoying and having her best life, but it certainly wasn't to the point of doing deviant sexual stuff. Correct. Honestly, I think it was a lot of the behavior in the beginning, which is really amazing, because I think the way it's done is the prosecutor, and this is where it gets weird, because it goes back into his background, and it makes it almost sound like he is a disciple from God who is here to anoint... It's his duty to find the bad people. And he believes it's her. And then he rests on that because he thinks he has a confession. And then when the DNA DNA evidence doesn't seem to run in his favor, he just goes, But it could be another theory. And he just comes with a theory.

And what is the DNA that comes out?

Okay, so this is the DNA, essentially, that comes out that connects Amanda and Raphael to this crime scene is that her DNA is found on... I think it's found on both a knife and a bra clamp of Meredith that was perhaps at the house, but also maybe be a knife at Raffiele's. Well, if she's spending seven or eight nights at Raffiele's, her DNA is going to be on a knife because she's not walking around with gloves. And then, if you recall, they send her to the house, assuming with no gloves on it because it wasn't a very clean scene, to go through the knife drawer to tell us which knife is missing. Well, she's touching the knife handles right there, and she freaks out and cries. So they really build a lot on her ability. Now she's crying. Now, she didn't cry when it happened because she's this cold-blooded killer. But she's crying now because she's realizing what she's done. And they just run with that theory, period. And then it is a little concerning because how did your DNA get on the knife? But it's like, well, it could have been anywhere. It could have been from that.

It doesn't look great, but it could have been from anywhere. And I don't know if we ever really determined that this was the knife that matched the I don't even know if that was ever really determined. That's why this case is insane.

And the DNA does match this guy, Rudy. Because it was a seaman, so he had sex with her, whether that was consensual or not.

But there's also a bloody print that match.

And that matched his hand as well.

Right. So that case is actually pretty open and shut. He says, Oh, I was there. But then there was this anonymous killer that came in and attacked her.

I left. We had sex, and I left. And then somebody must have come and killed her.

And that is more what we call a standard case that the prosecution should definitely be able to convict, and in fact did. That's the scary thing, is that a In 2008, this Rudy character, Gwera, is convicted, and she's not convicted yet.

And he was just some guy that was at the bar, worked at the bar? Did they know who he was, or was he just like a... Not a migrant, but was he just like, what do you call it? Like a traveler?

Yeah, it could have been a traveler. It could have been a situation where Meredith might have been a consensual Night out. I don't know.

Can you just look up on your phone about... And we don't have to get this put out. I just want to know, because there are so many elements, you guys. Rudy, who was convicted in the Amanda Knox thing, what was his job and where was he from? Because I can't remember, did he also work at the bar or something like that? Because I'm remembering all these people that she said the Patrick guy worked at the bar, that she got in trouble for defaming him, according to the Italian police. And then this Rudy guy, I don't know if she knew him or not.

Well, I do remember from the show, and you might remember, too, that they do say that the evidence, some forensic evidence, clearly belonged to an African-American. They definitely I said that. So I think that's why Patrick, all of a sudden, when they saw the text, they really wanted to jump all over that.

I guess he wouldn't be African-American if he was an American. Or just be someone with African ethnicity?

Yeah, a black person.

It says he did not have a defined job. He had a long history of break-ins and other offenses.

I think he had a record.

So he was a small-time criminal that was going around, and he probably had other crimes in his past, maybe assault as well, that were just not convicted.

And that would lead me to believe that there was no... This guy did not know Meredith, that unfortunately, she was probably just a product of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It does show- So that I'm going to meet your boyfriend and meet this random dude and be like, Let's all have a four-way sexcapade and kill my roommate. Remember, there was a window that was broken into. I mean, there was clearly a window that was broken into, but the prosecutor made it sound like, What? Is he Spider-Man? How was it broken into? So almost made it sound like it's an inside job. Like, I'm inside, now I'm breaking the window. To make it appear. Yeah. As opposed to, I'm breaking the window to come in. But I don't think it looked impossible for the guy to get up on the... I mean, you don't know. But they made it sound like that must be an inside job. Now, especially when you look at crimes today, there are ways to show whether the window was broken from the inside out to the outside in. I mean, there are just much more technical stuff stuff that's done today that can determine whether this is an inside job or a random person who may have seen her walking home.

And I'm guessing there was just so much shoddy police work as far as not securing the place.

Well, remember, the other thing that was so interesting was that the coroner was there, and he goes, I need to do my job. And they're like, No, but we need to start investigating. So the coroner didn't come in there for too late. So So then the big issue was, what is the time of death? Because time of death has to be determined immediately based on the temperature of the body, among other things. That was never done. So then the coroner admits, I don't know the actual time. And of course, the prosecutor is trying to, well, it could have been this time. It could have been that time. And then I think the guy ends up being fired because it's messing up the prosecution's theory of what in fact happened. I think what's more disturbing about this entire case is how long this really unsubstantiated theory went on for. I think that's really the travesty. And when they call it the twisted case of Amanda Knox, that's really the travesty.

I mean, it's just so horrific to think that you're just this upper middle class girl who is like, Yeah, I'm going to do a year. I've always... I haven't done a lot of travel. And from the moment I saw, what was it called? The Palace, Claire Daines and that other girl. Oh, yes.

I remember this.

What was that name in that movie? And these two young girls are having a really fun time. They're in Thailand and all these places. And they get wrapped up in taking some drugs for a guy and bringing them here or there or whatever. And then they also go to a hotel and have a fun day at the hotel. I remember the scene. And they just are lying about their rooms. So they can put all the food on a And then that is, in fact, what gets them arrested, I think. I don't know. It was crazy. I don't know if it's based on a true story, but it was that story. So it was a whole series called Locked Up Abroad. There was a movie I saw when I was way, way too young. I want to say it was called Midnight Express.

Okay.

Can you look up Midnight Express movie? I mean, I think I was six watching this movie, like at home. And it was, again, a guy who was in a foreign prison, like Turkey or something, for doing some crime based on his true life and how he gets out. And I remember there was some nudity in it. So that's what his girlfriend or wife comes to visit him and is talking to him. And she pushes her boots up against the glass so that he can see him. And then she gives him a book of photos, and she's hinting that there's something underneath the photos to help get them out. Oh, like a scoop. It's always just freaked me out so much to be convicted or in prison for a crime you didn't commit, but not in America. Oh, yeah. Do you think America's how? I mean, this story, the fact that she was there for so long, and even though these people were of means, they're not Jeff Bezos means. Eventually, what are you going to do? And just to think that they went through Christmases and at Christmas party, and like, how's Amanda doing? Well, she's still in prison because she does get convicted.

And he's set to do 20, six 6 years for this crime. What was the name? Did you look it up? It was made in 1978. Made in 1978? What am I doing at eight years old watching an R-rated A big movie about a guy? And what was the synopsis? Can you read the synopsis of the movie real quick? Well, he was caught by the Turkish police while attempting to smuggle hash out of Istanbul, and he was sent to prison for four years. He was sent to prison for four years. Okay, I just want to say. Can I just say that me, at eight years old, I remembered that it was a Turkish prison. I'm telling you, it was a huge movie.

It was a big- It was a big movie.

It left such an impression. And then to see the Claire Daines and the other girl get sent to the Thai prison. And then this was so disturbing to me. In the beginning, yeah, I was like, I think from the moment they started to report on it, on Dateland or 2020, It was saying that this was shoddy police work and stuff, but they were saying how they came up with it with her making out with a boyfriend and stuff. I wonder if, and people have brought this up, could she have been somewhat on the spectrum? Is she just an odd girl? Could it be that she just doesn't react in a more atypical way? But again, what we always say on this show is who's to say how you're supposed to react when something so shocking happens and what you're thinking of. And there is no... The minute you find out your wife has gone missing, you're supposed to fall to the ground, roll around, cry, throw up, then put up signs, not go to bed, not Not talk to anybody. Who's to say what you're supposed to do?

Well, I think based on her age and the fact that this was not where she's from. But really, the age is the naivety. I mean, if you really look at it, that's what's been played up. For example, she realizes that she didn't really remember. Now she has clarity. So I'm going to talk to the prosecutor, and I'm going to write this whole statement all over again, and everything will be cleared up. And that is a very normal way for a young person to think. I have been taught that law enforcement is going to protect me. There's no reason why they won't. I'm having a great time. I have met great people here. Meredith was a good friend. They will understand. And they don't. And it's all very contrived. And so, yes, that's when, obviously, the parents came in, and then they hired private counsel, and the counsel that could maybe explain from America the translation, but also understand Italian. In the beginning, she's given counsel, and I'm sure counsel is fine, but they're Italian counsel. And it's pretty evident from the way this show is portrayed, and this makes sense. Everyone's in the same... They're all working together, even though they're working differently.

I think there's a time where they're talking about house arrest or a bail hearing, or is she going to be likely to flee? And it's in this little tiny table, like what we're at. And then in Italian, and she doesn't really understand, Are you formally objecting? He goes, Well, I'm making my argument, because the prosecutor looks at what we would call maybe a public defender and say, Come on. You know, make your argument, whatever. But this woman should not go back to America based on what I believe she's done. And I'm the prosecutor, right?

I mean, I do have to say, if you're really up for murder, you shouldn't be. Correct. Go back to your hometown. I mean, you really shouldn't. Correct.

And I think from that perspective, usually whoever would be representing somebody accused of murder knows it's an uphill battle to get house arrest when clearly the first thing she's going to do on house arrest is leave the country. Now, obviously, maybe they would say, no, don't leave the country. But now she's stuck in this situation. Where are they going to protect her, too? Because now they have basically tainted the media. I mean, it was almost like you're burned at the stake, right? It's a Joan of Arc story.

That's why she said she connected with Monica Lewinsky, because with Monica Lewinsky, it was really I mean, talk about perspective 30 years later of a crime. I know. This girl was barely out of college. And was she excited that the President was like, flirting with her and was like, come give me Did B. J. Yeah. She was. She was excited. Talk about a great story to take back to the sorority sisters. I fucking, yeah, you blew a football player, but I blew the President. Like, come on. And then she shares There's her secret with the Linda Tripp. And again, it all goes back to housewise. Whether Gretchen told Katie or not, she thought it's just going to be between us. Right. She didn't know that Kiki Monique was going to be working for the government. It's so true. It's like you think that whole story. And I remember thinking back then, oh, my God, I wonder if Monica Lewinsky will ever get married, being that we're the same age, which is women our age wanted to get married at 30. I know it's a different story now, but we want to get married by 30, have the babies by 35.

That's what people our age wanted. I'm like, I wonder if she'll find some great-looking good guy and get married and have kids and live a traditional life. And her name was so synonymous with, oh, you're getting a Lewinsky? And I imagined seeing a traditional wedding I was getting an invitation at the time saying, Mr. And Mrs. Jones are thrilled to announce the engagement between Jonathan Jones and Monica Lewinsky. And I remember thinking- Never going to happen. I think if she marries someone, it's not going to be someone of the traditional pedigree that she came from, which was private schools in Brentwood. I'm like, I just don't think. And I think she looks great. I think she's made an incredible career for herself now. And she, like Amanda, has told her story many different times in ways. There was an HBO documentary. There's been books, there's been movies, there's been things that she hasn't signed off on. But again, it's the woman that is the easiest one to point at, because not only are the men doing it, but women aren't supporting you either. They're like, What are you doing, you little slut with your beret?

Trying to ruin a cute family like the Clintons?

I mean, it is interesting, and It's nice that Monica and Amanda can really join in this because their stories are really similar as far as just what they overcame, not just legally, but obviously in the media eye, and how it hasn't They've never really been completely vindicated in a certain sense, because there's people that probably don't know that somebody else was convicted before she was. I think that was one of the big things, is I wasn't really sure exactly who killed Who killed this girl. And that's so unfair to the victim's family and to the victim.

I mean, if you think about it- I'm glad that she is doing this. Because as someone who followed it, I remember that she did time, sometime, but she did eventually get out, that they did get the real person. But that's all I did not realize until we started to delve into it, that she was convicted, and so was the boyfriend of eight days, and so was Rudy. And they all did... They did four years before they were able, in the Court of Appeals of Italy, to get it overturned for Raphael and Amanda Knox. Right. Rooney was still convicted because of his DNA and everything. Yeah, because it was a company. But he got out after 13 years. He got out. That's crazy. And he had priors. That's insane.

Well, that's what makes it so crazy, too. And that's why I talk about the victim's family, because this is a horrible crime. There were a lot of victims in this. But where do you turn? And then can you imagine you send your daughter off, and she's saying, Oh, yeah, everything's great. I met this great girl from America. We're best friends. And then you start to hear this just horrible story to tell, and you really are only hearing well. She confessed, she confessed. I mean, what are you supposed to think as a family member?

She said in an interview recently, Amanda Knox, that she has never talked to Meredith's family. She's never had any contact with them, positively or negatively. And I was trying to get a little research on what their reaction was. But when she was finally exonerated of the murder after four years, they just said the family members of Meredith were just stoic at the court. I think that's so hard when you're... Obviously, the parents of a victim, it's horrible. But you're working with the prosecution, you think You're working with the prosecution. You think they found the person. And then they're like, no, we didn't. And you're like the Karen Reid families, the family of the victim. They still didn't want to believe anything other than, no, she did it. She did it, and that's that. And I'm like, I get that. But if your child is dead, would it be some comfort to know I know that the person that they knew and trusted wasn't the one that killed them? I would rather it be a random person than their best friend or roommate or girlfriend.

Well, right. Because we want closure. And Unfortunately, even closure is not going to bring your car back.

It's never, and it goes on forever. Every time there's an appeal or probation, then you're faced with the whole thing again. You can't move on as a victim's parent.

I do think at least they had closure with the Rudy conviction. I agree it's not enough time at all, but at least there is something to show that this guy clearly was involved. But then to extend it out, then they had to think, well, it wasn't just a random thing. It was actually somebody that she knew and liked and was living with. I mean, talk about living with the enemy. I mean, it's just to go to those lengths to convince yourself that your story, and I'm talking from the prosecution and police, is correct, that I can't be wrong. And if I'm wrong, well, then I'm not really wrong. And to just somehow make everything fit into your box.

I'm guessing anybody that's sending their kid off to do a semester at sea or a year in a different country through the school, if they hadn't remembered this story and they're currently watching it, they're going to make sure that they have every an embassy number, not only in their phone, but printed out on a piece of paper on their person, maybe some other personal contact that they can connect with a family member or somebody. I would be so freaking out because we put our kids in situations now where they're living with someone that they've never met in tiny quarters in a college that we're paying $50,000 a year for. And sure, you can do some prior research, and And that's always fun. But still, there's many people that just, this is your roommate. And you don't know what their mental health is like, what their situation is. I don't want to say, but for someone who's close to me, very close, this girl we thought was a good roommate, and she was fine, but she was bringing over Tinder guys to the dorm room and that were not part of even the school, drank only sodas, and refused to brush her teeth for a year.

And this person who's close to me had to live in a tiny room, and there's no getting out of it. So it's like, with this whole situation, speaking of which, then I wanted to look up what was it like to be in Italian prison for four years? And I was like, if anything, is the food a little better? Are they serving pasta? Are they serving some pasta? Is it a little more gourmet.

So when we read it, it was like she woke up in a room with three other women.

There was a bucket for dirty laundry. There was a small kitchen. There was, I think, did they say a bathroom or something, but it was no privacy, and it wasn't fancy or anything. And Drake was reading to it. He goes, Sounds like the dorm room of LSU, which her daughter just started at, which is an older building and everything. And Of course, you could make it cute and all that. But no. And then she would spend her days for four years. I'm like, How did you spend her days? And she did make the most of it, it sounds like. She wrote a lot, did a lot of diaries, which I'm sure all led to some profitable stuff in telling her story. But also she would translate the Harry Potter books. And so now I believe she's probably quite fluent in Italy, in Italian.

If you're going to be there for four years, and then you really know that you misunderstood everything, you would be able to at least learn another language.

And I always thought, you're the Rafaela guy. Was there just like, how the fuck? Did I get myself into this? I just met you eight years ago. Eight days? Eight days ago. I just met you eight days ago. And now, And in what I read is, obviously, the relationship didn't last. It wasn't a love that was going to last for four years. But they did keep in touch. There is a friendship. There was writing going back and forth. They did meet up on a couple of occasions when they both were exonerated over the years.

Well, I think he also... I think the whole... It whole started is, of course, they separated them. I think they wanted him to come back. And then she said, Let me come back, too. Come back where? Come back to the interrogation room. This is the beginning. He goes, Oh, they want to talk to me. Well, I'm not going to let you go alone, which probably was one of the worst mistakes she ever made. She should have just stayed back. Then they bring in what I call a mole while he's being interrogated, and they're getting him to say, You know that Amanda never came back to your place. She was there the whole time. So he eventually says, Yeah, maybe she wasn't with me. So now they've got him saying that she was back at the apartment doing what she was doing.

Because they were smoking weed. Right.

Oh, yeah. The whole pot thing. Somehow... But that's the problem. You lie about one thing because she said she lied about the pot because she didn't want to get her roommates in trouble. You lie about the pot, then you're going to lie about everything. That they were pot smokers. Right. And it's pot. But then they're thinking, he doesn't even know where she was. So her whole story about watching the Amalee movie and everything like that is all. So they get him- They said they were watching a movie. A movie. But they get him to say, Oh, she wasn't with me. What? What he's going to say that? So now she's like, well, why would he say this? And then they bring in, I call it a little mole, where they're saying, So... She doesn't know who he is. She goes, So what do you do to relax? Well, I do yoga. This is another weird part in the movie. Okay. Where Where, Oh, show me the yoga. So now all of a sudden, she's doing her yoga poses in a police station.

And that is also a video that went viral, that looked like she was standing on her head and doing cartwheels and stuff instead of grieving. Yeah, instead of grieving in a joyful... What monster does something like that.

But it's also sexual. Some of the moves she's making can be seen as sexual, and she's doing splits on the floor. I think that was the narrative that they were trying to build. Then they could... I didn't know that video went viral. Then they could take that video viral. Then she's just being found guilty in the media, which is why her teaming up with Mona Lewinsky is like, this is how things can go so very, very wrong when somebody has a narrative and doesn't even think about the truth anymore.

There was this woman who I believe is still in prison. It's one of those shows that keeps coming back and following. And she had left her two little kids sleeping on the couch and said that someone came in and brutally stabbed them. And she did get convicted for their murder. She always claimed for innocence. And when it was one of their birthdays, or they had birthdays very close together, she went to their grave before she was convicted and was laughing and spraying silly spray on the graves. And a reporter had followed her, filmed that, and they were like, What a sick bitch. And she was like, no, they loved silly spray or whatever. Still silly string. And so in celebrating their birthdays, I just was trying to think of a happier thing. And it's just always so when you hear one thing or see one thing and assume it, and then when you hear the actual backstory behind it, you're like, oh, yeah, if you isolated that one little moment, you didn't see her crying in the car before. You didn't see her shaking it off. You didn't see her being like, God, I remember that birthday three years ago.

It's just so... Which is what was so fascinating about the media portrayal of Amanda Knox and what was then conveyed over here as well. There's still people that think that she did have something to do with it. And there's still people that think the whole thing is a hoax, and it never happened. Like, whatever. There's always going to be somebody that says weird shit.

Unfortunately, this was a real person. It's a real person. It's a true story. It went terribly wrong on so many levels.

So then she does get convicted of saying that it was the Patrick guy, her boss, of defamation, which holds a maximum of three years in prison for defaming someone in Italy. And since she'd already done four years, they said, Okay, don't have to do it any time. But she actually has that conviction of defamation in Italy, and then came home. And I guess then has lived her life and written her books and all of that.

But God, I can't imagine being the mother of a child and not being here or being here and really feeling completely powerless. I think that is the hardest thing. The damage It was done. I think the parents did everything they possibly could when the time happened, but the damage was done.

I mean, imagine hearing that she got 26 years. And you can have an attorney say, We're going to appeal, we're going to appeal. But I mean, it was not looking good. I mean, she had to spend those four years doing what could keep her mind sane of that I may never get out. And she said every day was just that she woke up was just eternal sadness. I mean, it was just so hard to have any hope. How I mean, the fact that she's now... I mean, what a wonderful thing that she's got Grace Van Patten, who is a great casting match for her.

I think so.

And a whole series, and she's still beautiful. She just had She was very, very attractive. She had a very classic, beautiful look that required very little makeup, perfect features, blue eyes, brown hair, great nose, great profile, very attractive. But very Natural.

That's what I'm saying. That's the other thing that's so weird. It wasn't like she presented as what they say, what they call her- Hussy or foxy-noxy or whatever. She didn't present that way at all. That's why it's really frightening.

No. She was a good student. Student that was just like, Oh, this is fun, and I'm going to take advantage of all of it, and did really connect with someone after sleeping with several others, and who cares? But she was connected I think with him. And I mean, just like, what a nightmare. We talk about being blamed for something. Can you imagine the guilt that you would... Even though you're in this situation, I would still feel guilty that this boyfriend is also in this horrible thing with me. Just because- And Patrick.

I mean, everybody, it just it ballooned. And it's really that idea when you find yourself just in a situation where you're like, How did I get here? And it just balloons, and you're desperately trying to backtrack and correct, and you still believe that you can, and then you can't. Yeah, it's pretty deafening, really.

Yes. And so there's so much more on it to explore as far as where she is now and what her relationships are with these other people. So obviously, we can't cover it all here. But it was great talking to Shannon. Tell everybody where they can follow and find you.

Thanks. I'm on Instagram. It's just under my name. And also our law firm with my husband is michaelgoldstein. Net.

So yes, you can reach out to them for any legal advice or if you need counsel. And of course, I'm at heatherminkdoll. Net for Everything. More Patreon, dates, all of it. Going to Vegas, you're going to come, right? You're going to go to my show? Yes, you are.

Oh, yes, I am. Okay, got it from the calendar.

Yeah. November 14th. During Bravo concert, I'll be a lot lighter, fair, but there'll be some real estate crimes. No, real estate. There'll be some real housewives crimes that I'm sure we will cover in the show, which does involve a lot of lying and things like that and false confessions. So it all comes back to housewives as well as juicy crimes. Thank you.

Thanks, Heather.