Transcript of Episode 526: Liron Kayvan: Smart Strength Training That Builds Results Without Injury or Burnout

Hi, guys. It's Tony Robbins.

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We're back with my friendly We're on. We're going to talk all things fitness today. Are you ready? I'm ready. All right. Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

Happy to be here. You're very welcome. It's nice to have you. Okay, I got some quick questions for you. Ready? Yeah. Okay. Body Wait, exercises versus weights. What do you think is better?

Body weight has to come first. You have to be good at body weight first. There's some situations where you might need to start on weights before if the exercise is hard or injuries, et cetera. But most of the time, you should be proficient in any type of movement, the body weight version. For example, a push-up versus a bench press, you should be mastering push-ups before you bench. Does that make sense?

Okay, yes. But in terms of building muscle, what is more effective?

I think you I think you can, again- Could you build muscle with just body weight, in your opinion? Absolutely. When I was a teenager, I started doing body weight training for two or three years. My body transformed like that super, super, super fast. Then when I started to lift weights because I had Which is such a good foundation of movement, the correct movement patterns, stabilizer muscles. I know that's bro science. I don't know exactly. You know what I mean?

What's bro science?

Stabilizer muscles.

What are you talking about? Women talk about stabilizing muscles.

No, bro science in terms of There's not such a thing as a stabilizer muscle that people really agree on what it is. But essentially, that movement pattern by working your body in a very balanced way that you get from calisthenics, from bodyweight exercises, it sets you up for weight lifting after. I found that people who get good with bodyweight exercises first can put on muscle much faster when they do add weights. Got you.

Does that make sense? It makes sense. But I would say this. I think that when I think of stabilizing muscles, I think about really strengthening your core and your balance, which are super important as you age also.

Which I think you probably get more of with bodyweight exercise, depending on specifically which ones you do. But I'd say you get more of that with body weight, and then you get from free weights after that, free weights and kettlebells. And then finally, I think machines.

Yeah. Machines are really good for people who have a lot of injury, actually. Yeah. I think machines are very good for that because it just works the muscle that you're supposed to work.

And you can also push yourself at a really high level. So if you want to go super, super heavy, safely, machines actually really have their place. Because say you fail on a machine, what happens? The stack just drops on the stack, right? Not on you. Not on you. Exactly. If you're trading by yourself, things like Smith machines and cable machines and stuff like that. I know you're talking about home gyms or friends of mine, when they ask me about home gyms, I'm like, Look, machines are actually great. If you can find a machine that does a bunch of different stuff, machines are great for the sake of safety and the ability to really, really push yourself to failure without jeopardizing yourself. And also, you don't really need to get form perfect. You do a back squat versus a leg press. Leg press is just way easier.

Yes. Right? Form-wise. I think that's true. I also think, though... What do you think about this, actually? Because I know to get stronger and to get results, a lot of times it's about progressive overload, right? Yeah. But I also think, I was going to say not but, and I also think that with age and sometimes with injury, you can't really lift as heavy as maybe you once did. So I still think that you can still get a really... You could get really good results without killing yourself on super, super heavy. Yeah. As long as you're doing weight training, I find that to be suitable.

I think intensity is more important than weight. Weight is an aspect of intensity, but as long as the workout is sufficiently intense- Why I say this is because when I've worked out with trainers before, they're pushing me to go at such a A heavy weight...

My body can't even do it. And they're like, No, you can do it. You're strong. You're a badass. You can do it. I'm like, I really actually cannot do it. My glutes are not firing. I have an injury over here. 100 % true. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is I think it's really important to really be discerning a, with who you're working out with and knowing your body. Because just because someone's screaming in your face that you can do it, you can do it. And you know, it's not you being It's not you being a weak, weak ass, whatever. It's just that you actually legit cannot do it. I think that there is this whole culture now is like, lift super, super, super heavy. No, you got to lift heavy enough where you can improve on your own strength little by little. But don't kill yourself. That's not also the answer.

It's great advice. Don't kill yourself.

Well, don't kill- Generally speaking- Don't hurt yourself.

Just generally speaking is good.

Yeah, well, just generally speaking. Well, I was going to say, what is your opinion on this lifting super heavy?

I agree with you 100 %. I mean, the research says anywhere between 5 and 30 reps is good for hypertrophy. Three? Five and 30.

No, I heard between 8 and 12 reps. Right.

So that's the traditional one. But that can lend itself to... Look, this is going to be a very big topic of debate between people. And I'm not giving my personal opinion. I'm saying that the latest research I've seen is you can I get muscular gains from 5 to 30, as high as 30 reps.

I'd like to see that research because I have not seen that.

I think it's by Andy Galpin. So you can check that out.

But again, essentially- He says that because that's amazing. I know people. If you're doing 30 reps, that's more endurance than anything else.

Yeah, I know. That's what we traditionally thought. I don't personally because I find it... Again, there's personal preference. There is some personal preference here. Depending on the day, so I might go as high as 25, maybe 30 on certain exercises, depending on how I feel. Meaning that would be exciting to me to do 25 reps today. I feel like I want to do 25 reps, so I might push myself up to 25 reps, and then maybe I periodize these things. Once you get very good at fitness and you've been doing it long, you learn to listen to your body a little bit more. But there are times where I want to go super, super heavy and I want to do five reps or something. There are times when I want to go higher and there are times when I want to be in the middle. I found that varying things smartly, in a periodized and structured way, is the best way for me to train because it keeps things fresh and exciting for me.

Well, I think what you're talking about is more muscle confusion. Someone like me, too, who works out a lot, I can do sometimes 20 reps, sometimes 10 reps because I do it so often. I know I'm doing it more because I'm just, quite frankly, bored, and I'll just keep it interesting.

I would relabel it muscle excitement, not confusion, because confusion, I'm not confused. I know exactly what I'm doing. But what I want is to do something exciting to me. I want to enjoy my workouts, and I want to train to get better. A lot of this also comes from the fact that I want to be a very well-balanced athlete. It's not just hypertrophy. I want to be able to play soccer, which is a very high endurance sport. Then I also want to be able to pick up a car if I need to. I want to be adaptable, right? And I want to be well balanced, so I train the full rep range. My point is, especially also there are different muscle groups that require different rep ranges. So you're, generally speaking, you're Your upper body is going to require less reps and your lower body is going to require more reps. Glutes, for example, tend to be on the higher rep range, mostly because they're slow to its muscle fibers. So generally, you need more reps with glutes. Again, this is not like just you take this and that's the end of it. There is a lot of nuance here, but lower body generally requires higher reps and upper body generally requires lower reps.

Not to say that you should never do higher reps for up, up, and vice versa.

But I think that the general consensus is if you're doing five or six reps, you're doing that for For strength and not hypertrophy. For strength. And you got to lift really heavy for that. What I'm saying is if you're someone who's in the middle, an intermediate person, I think focusing on between 8: 00 to 12, even 8 to 15 reps, let's just say. And the last one or two should be almost a failure. That would be what my guideline would be. That's a perfectly reasonable. But I don't think that... I actually disagree with you that I think that lower body should be higher reps versus upper body that are lower reps. I think you can interchange it. I think sometimes I would do a lot of reps for pushups, for example. Pull or shoulder wrap, whatever it is. Then sometimes I'll just do heavier, not to kill myself, but heavier for 10 to 12, lower body. Then sometimes I'll change it up. I don't think one is Not necessarily.

As I said, it's not gospel necessarily. When I was, I don't know, we mentioned that on this episode, but when I was first starting, I was a teenager and I only did body weight. So I was doing incline push-ups, three sets of 35, and I built a lot of muscle in my chest.

Because you're not normal, by the way.

I'm pretty normal.

Okay, just so you know, Leroyne was almost like a... You were like a soccer player, like a professional soccer player.

I did a little bit of I was quite good at everything.

Okay. And he has really good jeans. He has a 20-pack without even working out. Okay, never mind. Okay? So if I'm saying you're pumping out 40 reps of a push-up three times. Majority of people, that's not realistic.

Well, again, it wasn't the first set I ever did. I built myself up to 35. But my point is my body was transforming throughout that whole process. Now, look, if you want my personal opinion- Yes, that's why you're here. Generally, I'm going with the science, and I'm also going with my experience for myself and for maybe thousands of clients that I've trained. Generally speaking, I If you want actual hypertrophy, like to see muscular size being added, I generally wouldn't go as high as 30 reps. I would probably stick to somewhere in the middle of that rep range.

Okay, so then What do people gain if they're doing 30 reps of something? Keep it simple. Just what do people get? What's the point of doing 30 reps of a lunge, in your opinion, besides endurance and stamina?

I do think you can build muscle by increasing your reps from 15, 20, 25 up to 30. I probably would stop at 30. And again, if that's something that caused for you, if as long as you are increasing your intensity, muscle Pills can grow.

Okay, so how are you going to increase your intensity?

If you're doing 30 reps- Look, five more reps from 20 to 25 is still more intensity. No, I know.

But then, okay, where are you going to go from there? Then you're going to do 50 reps? Again. 100 reps? That's a lot of reps.

If I'm giving a prescription to people, I would not go beneath five reps. I would not go above 30 reps. If you wanted to give yourself the quick and dirty on this, I would stick to somewhere in the middle. Me personally, I'll tell you, I try to do 8 to 12 for upper body and 10 to 15 for lower body. That's how I generally train myself. But there are times when I will go lower for lower body and higher for upper body. I'm saying you do want to vary things sufficiently, but I would generally stick to the middle of that rep range. I wouldn't go from either of those extremes. Does that make sense?

It makes enough sense, I think. Okay.

So 8 to 12 is a perfectly good rep range for basically every muscle group. You're going to see some gains.

Okay, I understand. Today's episode is Powered by Amp. You know those days when you're just done? I mean, the meetings, the kids, the to-do list, and you still want to move your body, but the gym feels a million miles away? That's exactly why I love my Amp. Amp is a smart, AI-powered strength training device that sits right in your home. It's super sleek, literally looks like you got it at the Apple Store, and it also counts your reps, adjusts your weights for you, and you're always training under the perfect amount of tension. So whether you've got 15 minutes or 45, Amp adapts in real-time to make every workout simple, effective, and completely personal. And the app is super cool, too. It has hundreds of different workouts, strength, Pilates, mobility, recovery, and it's so easy to use. It's literally been a game changer for me. I don't have to plan my workouts or wonder what I'm going to do. I just turn on my amp and it takes care of the rest. And as a mom and a business owner and a podcaster, that convenience means I stay consistent. And strength training, especially for women, is so key for my hormone balance longevity, and of course, confidence.

So you can see why I'm obsessed. Go to joinamp. Com/jen to learn more. That's joinamp. Com/ Jen, because strength should fit your life. So what about classes, like group fitness? Do you think you can get really strong and muscular from doing group classes?

Oh, yeah. I have a group class that I teach called Build on Monday and Wednesday evenings. Build Fitness Summit.

Really? And how does it work?

It's funnily enough, it's actually a circuit. So we'll have five exercises, total body. So that way, if somebody misses a class, it's not a big deal. You're doing your upper push, you're doing your upper pull, you're doing core, you're doing total body movement, and you're doing a lower body exercise. So you got those five exercises. You do three sets, 45 seconds. So they're timed each set without getting into too much complexity of how the class works. But long story short, you're doing total body, and we just do it twice a week. And the gains that people have made, the people who come twice a week is really beyond my expectation. And a lot of that is just the consistency because there's a group and they're cohort and they like each other, they come every-Right.

This is a community thing. Yeah. So again, I think that there's a major thing with people are now staying further away from... Well, actually, I should say... You know that bars are on the downswing, right? People are not drinking as much, and they're actually They're really using wellness clubs.

Especially younger people. They get disease and stuff. They don't drink. Well, no, I'm saying they don't drink much.

Wellness clubs are on a huge uptick now. And one of the number one places people are meeting people, like relationships, dating, is at running clubs. I mean, people are like, that's what I'm saying, a group fitness environment. So again, you're doing something that's good for you, which is taking care of yourself. And it's also a very big social thing as well.

I also think beyond that, if we're going to take a step deeper, I guess, a fitness is sexy. The truth of it is we like to see people moving their bodies.

Well, 100%.

It's attractive. It gets something. It triggers something in you that essentially turns you on. It's like it's chemical. We like that. Going to a bar and drinking, yeah, you have to turn the lights down so people can't tell what people look like. You have to drink so that you still can't tell. Fitness is sexy because you see people who are honest and raw and who they are, how they move their body, how they push themselves. You see a lot about someone. So I think you're getting a way better, essentially, view of a person, of a human being as a mate, as a potential mate.

Well, I think it's also people who sweat together, whatever together. Pheremones and stuff. Pheremones, I think. I agree. I think it's super sexy. But more than that, I also think it's like you're doing an experience together, and that bonds people versus drinking at a bar. To me, it's like, okay, I'm glad to see this as an uptick in terms of... Because for a while, I mean, younger people aren't even dating as much. The fact that- Yeah, they seem to be struggling in the dating. They're struggling with the dating stuff. The fact that running clubs have become such a big thing in terms of for dating and for socializing. What was the other one? Oh, I know. I just came back from Miami, and I...

Is that where the town is from?

Well, yes.

Yeah. I could see something. I could see a glow.

What I was going to say is, you know what's massive in Miami that has not made it to the West Coast yet? Something called Paddle or Paddel. I don't know how to say it. Oh, yeah. You know I feel like pickleball has been taken over the world, and especially, well, everywhere. Paddle is really big in Europe, and it's become very big in Miami on the East Coast. And there is such a vibe and such a community around it. People exercise, and obviously, it's great exercise. It's really a great vibe.

What's the difference between pickleball and paddle?

I'm going to tell you. It's also like they built a whole community around it, where people are members at multiple clubs. There's paddle clubs, like membership paddle clubs. Membership Padel Clubs. You talk to people, you watch other people play, you play a game. And to me, I believe it's going to take over pickleball pretty soon. It hasn't yet made it, like I said, to the West Coast. There's a few places here in LA that do it, but it's not a vibe yet, but it's so fun. I feel like there's a little bit an element of more of an athletic element to it. I don't know why Are you doing it more in a cage? You have walls or whatever you want to call it. But to answer your question, how is it different than pickleball? I don't know. I'm not a big fan of pickleball. I haven't played it very much. Pickleball has a kitchen, the whole thing. I don't know. But I That's what they call it. The ball is different. It's a plastic ball and pickle ball. Paddle is or Padel. Padel. Sorry. I like Padel. It's called a Padel. It's really big for people from Argentina.

It's like, Brazilian. It's a very big... That's why Miami people. And that's why Miami, it's become a massive thing. You use a tennis ball. So I think a lot of former tennis players play it, but it's super fun. I guess the reason why I'm bringing it up is, to me, these are really great ways to engage with people and socialize and build relationships in a setting that's fun, interactive, experiential. And then with like-minded people who want to be active, doing something fun. For anybody who doesn't know, if you're living in a place where you should check your local listing and see if you should go find a Padelle place, it's so fun. I know they have one in Century City Mall. I know. I literally just got back from Miami. I'm going to go check it out because a bunch of people, I put it on my social media. I was like, Oh, I'm playing Padelle. All these people were like, Hey, you know what? There is one in LA on top of Century City Mall. So I am going to look. But like I said, part of the whole culture of Padel is that I think there's events around it, the people hang out and they work.

Yeah, for sure. My brother's in real estate, and I don't know if he does Pickle or Paddel, but one of the two, or maybe both, it's a huge networking thing for them.

It's great for networking. It's great for business. It's great for socializing. There's so many benefits to it. I think this, to me, is where the future of fitness and social and business collides. I think the collision here is fitness and professional and personal meet.

I agree. Even work has taken, has lost its social function because people are working from home or they're doing hybrid models or they're not on work campuses. These offices are closing down on the left, right. All this office space is for least everywhere. Everywhere. People are closing down their offices and working from home and cutting the expenses. So people need, we need a way to hang out with each other. And I think play, especially physical play, is the best way for human beings to hang out with each other.

Totally. I totally agree. So maybe we should go play. We should play together. We should Padele. We should Padele. I'm down. My girlfriend, Carrie, got me into it there in Miami, and her and her fiance are super were into it. It was really fun. Like I said, I just think it was like it's a really... I think it's going to be pickleball 2. 0. Also, you know it's really interesting. Do you know that pickleball has more injuries than any other sport.

Yeah, actually, it makes sense now that I think about it.

One of my best friends, I'm going to shout out to Mimi, one of my best friends, she was a big pickleball player, and she was playing This was a couple of years ago, maybe a year ago. She fell backwards, hit her head, and got a major concussion. Supposedly, when she went to the ER, they're like- She's just quite clumsy. I don't know how clumsy she is. I don't think- Does this happen to her a lot. I don't know. I should ask her.

I feel like people like that.

Maybe. I don't know. You're right. I don't know. But she went to the ER, and I remember she told me she was not the first person there that day with a pickle accident. With a pick-up-ball-related injuries. She was like number six. So that's really... And another exercise or another thing that has massive injuries, you would never think, mountain biking.

Yeah. I mean, I had a motorcycle injury that really got me.

That's not the same. No one should ever go on a motorcycle. That's 100 %.

Unless you've actually been on one before, in which case you probably- I know.

That's what my first time.

Have you ever ridden one?

No. Have you ever been on the back of one? Yeah. When I was younger and stupider.

I'm not telling anyone to do it, but motorcycling is, let's be honest, dangerous. It is probably the most fun you could possibly have. Really?

Okay, well, let's not promote. I'm not promoting. And make that a thing. No one should go on a motorcycle ever. I know a lot of people have died on a motorcycle. I'm just telling you the facts. You can die doing anything. Look at me. Do you know what I did to myself? Do you see this big bump on my head?

I guess, yeah. Okay.

Do you know what? That's what I'm saying. Anything can happen anywhere. I got this bump just to give you... My trunk was opened and it was dark. And like a complete dumb ass person like I am, I just walked right into the corner of the trunk being open. I bumped my head so badly. I basically passed out bleeding. You never know what can It's going to happen from minute to minute.

You should definitely not ride a motorcycle.

I don't plan to. Yeah, definitely. Intentionally, I should say.

Definitely do not.

Okay. Well, anyway, so this is our little chit chat for today. Thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you. I look forward to being your Padel partner. Yes.

We're going We're going to actually schedule that. That's really a good idea. Everyone, try Padel. Also, if you have not subscribed, guys, please subscribe. It makes a big difference. I want to hear from you. I want to know what you want me to talk about, any topics you're just interested in, any guests you'd want me to try to get for the show, please. It should be an open dialog here. With that being said, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Happy New Year to everybody. Bye.