Transcript of Stephen Fishbach: The Truth About Reality TV (It’s Real, But Not What You Think) | Ep. 320 with Stephen Fishbach Best Selling Author of Escape!

Steven, I have to laugh, but I don't want to laugh, Steven. So I'm excited to have you on today. One, because you're a very fun individual, and I think fun people make the best guess, because then I can be myself around you. But Steven, fish back. I have so many questions because my wife has got me addicted to watching reality TV. And every time I watch, I'm like, I need to bring on someone who can answer these questions. So I think it'd be great to have an understanding around reality TV. What type of person goes on a reality TV show?

That's a great question. I think there's probably the reality TV that I've been on, which is jungle reality television, I feel like is its own sub-genre of reality TV. I will say that I think people would be surprised at the type of people who go on those shows like survivor or naked and afraid or alone. My experience is that the people who go on these shows are not the vapid Fame horrors. Can I say Fame horrors? That society cast them as. The people who go on these shows are people who are sincerely looking to have some confrontation with the wilderness. They're looking to find themselves. They're looking to step outside of their boring normal lives, even if they're not boring. I think we think of them as boring, just like at a desk in a routine and do something different where they're going to get to the bottom of who they are. And the fact that that's happening in the context of a reality television show, which is this ridiculous disposable cultural product, I think is really fascinating, and that's actually what my book is about, Escape, is that these people are going onto these shows looking for some transcendent confrontation with the jungle, and they're doing the ridiculous obstacle course, and they're in a hamster wheel running down the beach.

So is it real or is it scripted? Oh, it's real. I mean, it's very real. And of course, again, the book talks about producers and the way they nudge you in a certain direction. I mean, what I think is really interesting about reality producers is that they are taking people's real lives and turning them into a three-act story. I got a powerful three-act story, a good three-act story. It has to be good or these shows wouldn't be on the air. It has to be fulfilling or they wouldn't be renewed season after season. So that's amazing. You're in this chaotic environment, the jungle, or I guess a real house for a real house person. All this chaos is happening around you. There are these people whose job it is to distill that into a structure story arc. That's amazing.

Wow. They are really... I mean, they have to be storytellers to be able to create a story. What do you think is goes into having, or at least with your experience, I know your working experience, your experience on reality TV and talking to other people, what makes an amazing producer?

I think it is that sense of what is a good scene. I mean, I interview... Of course, when I was on reality TV, I interacted with a lot of producers, but there it's you're sitting across from them in an interview. You're not getting into their heads. They're getting into your head. But when I was writing this book, I interviewed a lot of producers producers, and they would talk about knowing where a scene starts or a scene ends. And that was crazy to me because I was thinking, this is my life. I'm interacting with these people. I'm playing this game. But they're thinking of even just an interaction at the camp as, here's the scene, here's where the opening is. Here's the stinger. They're really viewing it all in the terms of how can I digest this and turn it into story? It really is people who are excellent storytellers and want to craft a neat story out of the chaos of real life.

Talk about a job I never even thought. I want to be a producer of a reality TV show, but that is fascinating. It sounds like they are really curating things more than what we think. We think it's like just things just happen, Stan. It's just reality. We don't know what's going to happen, but they are really curating and thinking about what should happen or shouldn't. I'm fascinating with dating shows. I watched Love is Blind recently on Netflix, and I couldn't help think Are these people really in it for this? But then I also see them on 10 other dating shows, and I wonder, how much of those are chasing fame versus the survivor people who really want to find themselves?

Yeah, I do think you're right that there are a lot of people who go on some of the dating shows, especially, and some competition reality shows, looking for the next show, being very conscious of, How can I make a big enough performance on this show to justify being on House of Villains or The Traitors? And certainly, I think that's happened in the last few years. I remember even watching people on Survivor maybe five or six years ago, and I noticed that they were meming. They were doing little actions that were meant to be to gift out and spread on X on our Facebook. When I first went on, I was not aware of that at all. The cliché that you forget about the cameras was very true for me. But I feel like the participants now are very aware of the cameras, and many of them, or some of them anyway, are really performing.

This reminds me of thinking back to the first reality show that I remember, I think, had to have been the real world with MTV. What was the first reality show that you watched that even got you thinking about this could be something or maybe even something that you just stood out in your mind from before.

Yeah. I mean, I certainly watched the real world, but of course, I, along with fully half of America at the time, watched that first season of survivor and was just blown away by it. I was definitely part of those water-cooler conversations back when there were water coolers in offices, back when people went into offices. But I thought Richard Hatch was incredible, this amazing villain. I was rooting for him to win. The culture was outraged at him because he was voting out the nice people. But I actually was recruited to be on survivor. I did not apply I. I knew someone in casting who messaged me on Facebook in 2008 and said, Hey, do you want to be on Survivor? Let's make it happen. I literally did not know the show was still on the air. They cast in terms of archetypes, and they certainly did that more at the time. They had the hot alpha male, which obviously I was. No, they cast their nerd character. They cast their Beach Beauty character, and they had cast their season, and they had already had a nerd character where they decided he wasn't nerdy enough. My friend said, Oh, I know a real nerd.

If you want a real, true nerd, I've got the nerd for you. That's why she emailed me.

Is that why they're from Yale to survivor?

Oh, yeah. I mean, totally. That was all part of the storyline. My glasses were not as thick back then as they are now, but I still did have glasses, which really distinguished me.

At least you still got hair because you could be like, I had hair back then. I know that feeling. Going back to survivor, because I remember the last time I think I remember survivor was when they're in the Philippines. Yeah, and great season. I love that season. I also just like the Philippines in general. But what is... So you go onto this show, how weird is it? What's the feeling? You're on a show It's like life. There's cameras everywhere, but things have to happen. What's that experience like?

Yeah, that's a great question. I love games, and I also have immersive experiences. That's a really good question. The first part of it is very structured. You sit at this camp they take you to to acclimate for a week while you do your pregame press, you're not allowed to talk. Then at some point, they let you go. They're like, Okay, game's on. It's incredible, this feeling of freedom. I could go anywhere. I could literally walk anywhere. I'm in the Brazilian Highlands. It was the Cerrado. I'm in the Brazilian outdoors. I could walk anywhere. I could do anything. I could talk to anyone. I could not talk to anyone. Who I decide to vote out is entirely based on my decisions. Who I decide to vote for at the end is also just I get to choose. Just that freedom within the context of a game was mind boggling to me. It was truly so exciting. Just literally the sense of total... You can do anything, and someone with a camera is going to follow you, and it's going to be on television.

I find a lot of reality, especially these shows, which I love these shows, it's like a study of human behavior. It's like, what would humans do? It reminds me of Lord of the Flies. If you put these people on this island and there's no real leadership, and then you have something gold at the end, what's going to happen to humans? What do you think or what did you see at survivor? And then just in general with reality TV, do you find this is really... Are there anthropologists studying us or maybe aliens?

I mean, they should be. I'm assuming the answer is yes. Yes, the aliens are studying us and probably watching reality TV. It's got to be a really easy way to study us because the signals are out there, the TV signals. So they can just beam it up. That's got to be pretty straightforward. What's interesting is how each group does create its own mores. Every group creates its own dynamic of what they value. The other thing that was interesting, I thought, was the way that when you have to vote someone out, the The group would always put all of the blame for the chaos around them on that one person. They would always say, Oh, this person is playing too hard. This person is backstabbing. This person is lying. And then you vote them out and you get to feel good about your sofa a day. We got rid of the troublemaker. But then, of course, the game is what's forcing you to vote people out and lie and backstab. So suddenly you have to do it again. And it was this sense of we could maintain our own sense of moral integrity by putting all of our sins.

It was literally that It's the idea of a sacrificial goat where you're putting all the sins on this one person and voting them out and getting to feel good about yourself again.

I imagine when something becomes your life, it could be devastating when it's taken away. What was the feeling when you got voted off?

Yeah. I mean, well, I was really tired and hungry. So immediately I was like, Oh, I get to sleep and eat. That's nice. Yeah, it is devastating. You're right. And you really are so immersed in this game, and you're so focused on this prize for weeks. And there's a long weeks because literally, you got nothing to do to distract yourself. So they're very long weeks. So you're right. There's a real trauma that happens when you are voted out. You set your dreams and your goals on this one object, and then it's taken from you. And I have to also say it's also really hard to vote somebody else out because know that they... And in many ways, I found that actually harder than voting myself out or than myself being voted out because you know what their dreams are. Someone's out there competing to give their money to their dad who's worked his whole life, or they're going to set up their kids with a college education fund. You're like, Oh, I'm voting you out, taking all your dreams from you, sending your family back to where they started from. That's really hard. Lying to someone to do that, betraying people.

Most of us don't betray people in our day-to-day lives, and it's actually not a good feeling.

I can't have a laugh because I'm thinking, If I was to go on a show, I just need to make up an outrageous story, whether it's true or not, maybe not true. So people will then feel bad to not... Maybe that's part of the strategy. Obviously, you were a fan favorite. Tens of millions and millions of people voted you to go back on the survivor. Did you hesitate like, Why do I want to do this again? Or what was your thought like, Maybe this will have a positive impact on my life?

Yeah, I did. I mean, honestly, I did not initially want to do it again because for that reason, that it was so emotionally challenging to betray people, lie to people. I was really affected by it my first time, and I did not plan to do it again. The producers called me and said, Basically, this is your last chance. If you're going to go again, this is your opportunity. And passing up something like that felt It felt reckless. This is a dream that so many thousands of people have, thousands and thousands of people apply, and it's being gifted to me. Why not go for that adventure one more time? The fact that it was a fan vote made it cool. I thought, Okay, that's cool to be voted in by the fan. If that happens, then I do get chosen. That would be a cool thing to write on my resume. Maybe 15 years from now, someone will be calling me a fan favorite.

I mean, here we are. That was literally... Yeah, that was 15 years ago, right? Like you said, or 16 years ago?

Well, that one was probably 10 or 11 years ago, 2015, I think.

Then you wrote the book. The great thing I love about your story, too, is not only were you Bachelor of the Year. I'm still fascinated by that, but you also, you leveraged it because I think what happens a lot of times from what I've seen, following media for many years and studying media stuff is A lot of times these people don't leverage it their on after. Maybe they just want to try and be an actor, but we know most people will not continue to be an actor. You have really capitalized and leveraged it to write multiple books, best selling books, highly awarded. You've done many other things. How did you leverage it in case someone here is going on to a show tomorrow and they need to know what happens afterwards. Yeah.

I mean, truth be told, I always wanted to be a writer first. And in many ways, my fear going on reality television the first time was that I would become reduced to being the reality TV guy. And that would become the whole part of my identity, which it absolutely has. But My choice to write a book about reality television and have that be my debut novel was, I think, strategic. And I think that maybe gets to your question. Initially, I was going to write a book of short stories to prove my literary bona fides. But an agent said to me that that was a really stupid choice, that I should really more think what you should write the book about the reality TV show first because that's what your audience cares about. That's what the people who know you care about, and that's your opportunity to bridge your existing audience into maybe a more literary audience, and then hopefully take some of those people with you. Hopefully, when my next book comes out, and it's not about reality television, I've established that I can write book, and hopefully, some of the people who were interested in my thoughts about reality TV will come with me over there as well.

But I think a lot of it is just always observing, and at least certainly for a writer, it's always just paying attention to the unique world that only you have access to. For me, that was this reality TV world from my time as a contest, from my time working for the TV networks. I've worked for a non-conviction producers trade group. I've done a lot. I've seen every aspect of this world. I think for anyone looking to find what their next step is, I think it would be just to observe the thing that only you know about.

Hey, I just launched a book myself a month and a half ago. I have to say, hats off to anyone who has written a book. It was like years and years. I thought it was going to come out in a month after I started writing. But two and a half years later, it finally came out. People don't understand not only how hard the process or how long it takes, but the process. I wanted to quit and cancel. But the publisher is like, You signed an agreement. You have to continue writing this book. You can't stop. So hats off to you. I get just how challenging it is. In your book, or maybe even not in the book, was there a really wow story after interviewing these people that you heard that's really stuck out?

Oh, that's interesting. From interviews. I mean, one story I heard that does make its way in the book, and it's not a spoiler, but it because it's an aside, as someone mentions in the book, is from a wilderness show, Not Survivor, where the producer wanted to film two of their survivalists hunting a beaver because it's caster sac has vanilla flavoring. So they thought that would be a cool twist on the survivalist genre. But they couldn't find a live beaver to hunt anywhere. So a PA went and brought a frozen beaver that they then put into a stream so that you couldn't tell that it was frozen. And then shot from a distance, the hunter is make believe hunting this frozen beaver in the stream. That really stuck with me as a very strange facet of this reality world. I think captures, some of these shows are a little staged. It's not all 100% as it may be displayed on television.

It reminds me of these real estate shows, and I wonder if they're really selling the real estate or someone really buying the real. I always wonder, is this really any potential commission? I'm like, I don't know. Are they really... Is this it's real. I can't tell if some things are real or not real. So I'm glad you said that. So now if I see a beaver on a show-Specifically, yeah.

Well, and there was a big lawsuit where a survivalist alleged that their producer brought in a rattlesnake for them to encounter. Basically, there's a tense scene in the show, a different show, where they come on a rattlesnake and what do they do? But they brought the rattlesnake in a box and then presumably shot the scene and then shipped the rattlesnake off again to go home.

It's better than an anaconda, I think.

I guess that's right.

I think. Although I don't know. I'm not sure. You always see an anaconda when you were there?

I did see an anaconda. That's crazy that you asked that. I did. From a long, long distance, there was a time where I saw basically, I think they captured or they released. Again, they filmed like B-roll footage to include in the show. B-roll is the little nature shots that the survivor will have. They did, in fact, shoot it. I actually happened to witness from a distance it being wrangled, I guess.

I would not want to come in contact with that. I was far There's a guy who just did a documentary about living in the Amazon, I forget his name, and the stuff that I've watched on his YouTube channel around the things that he has to... He lived there for 20 years trying to help. I'm like, I would never want to put myself... Was there a scary moment besides the endoconda from miles away? Was there a scary experience that you had?

Yeah, it was actually was very… It was all those snake-based. A lot of the scary experiences were snake-related. But there was one time I was… One of the things I had to do was go to Exile Island, basically, where I was all by myself on this remote sand dune. There was a producer, but he was far away, and I couldn't even really see him most of the time. It truly felt like I was alone. At some point, the producer came down to inform me that one of the most dangerous snakes in the world, would they just seen one nearby, and I should stay close by the fire because the snake would probably not come by the fire. I said, Maybe we move me. Maybe we medevac or fly this person away so that he's not in the terrain of the most dangerous snake in the world. They're like, No, you're probably fine. You're probably going to be fine. Just stay away from any snake. I was like, Okay, that's great. If I make it through the night, I'll be all right.

One time, our son bought a snake and tried to have a snake, and we wouldn't find the snake, but I saw this big box of the cage of a snake thing. I'm like, So we made him return the snake the next day. I'm like, Wow, he went and went rogue and bought a snake. He went rogue and bought a snake and thought we wouldn't know that How would you not know we're going to find the snake? So next day, he had to return the snake. But I was bit by a friend's snake. He had a snake as a pet when I was younger, and I had to watch him, Python. I had to watch him feed the snakes. It was very disturbing watching him as it would grow and the feeding. Then it had to be alive. It was frozen, then it was alive, and then it bit me. Then I was like, I don't want to come in contact with snakes. I'm really wondering, too, about this reality, the ones you did. How How do you eat? Do they teach you survivor skills before you go? What if you don't eat, then what happens?

I mean, I lost 35 pounds in my first season, so that's what happens. They provide... I mean, on my first season, We got a sustenance level of rice and beans, but my group, my tribe, did not even get much of that. We were literally having a spoonful of rice a day, and it was really tough on my body, which is one of the reasons I didn't want go back. But you do get a survivor's school. You get one day where they show you what the various plants are that are available, that thing. Now that it's always on an island, there's typically coconuts, there's typically shellfish. There's food that you can exist on but not fill your belly.

Well, I got to say, I stopped working out a couple of years ago on a regular basis, and I have also yet to get my back. 42 years old, I don't know what is hard. It's hard, Steven.

It's hard. I've got frail joints. I'm always getting injured. It's tough.

Oh, my God. Steven, I'm so afraid. That's why I don't do anything because I'm like, if I get injured, I'm going to be so upset. I don't want to go bungey jump. It's not worth the risk in my life. That's why I'm not on reality TV unless it's a chess-playing reality TV or something. But I'm just too afraid. I I don't think I can handle it. But I love escape exclamation mark. You got to say that you have two versions of the book behind you because I know it's out in different countries. Tell me about that.

Yeah. About the book or about it being out in different countries? Both. Okay. So the book is about a has been mid-40s reality TV contest who goes back on a jungle reality show looking to reclaim his past glory. He was the winner. He was like the alpha guy his first season out. And now he's stuck in his numb real life and really wants to recapture that. And while there, he faces off against a reality TV producer, one of these expert storytellers whose whole job is to turn real life into a neat little bow. And there's this real struggle for who gets to control the story. I do try to capture all the texture of what reality TV is really like, hopefully for fans of the genre, showing them new aspects of it. But But I think that hopefully this relates or is moving to people who are even not reality TV fans, because I think it deals with the subject that everyone is going through right now in our social media dominated age, where we are all trying to project this image of ourselves. We are all trying to control our own story. And this question of what happens when you lose control of your own story, I think, really feels very dear to all of us.

What is it like when you... Because I I always wanted to write a fiction book, but about non-fiction experiences I've had or other people. What is that like when you're writing a fiction book? It's almost like a fiction non-fiction.

Yeah, I mean, this is fiction. I will say this is not based on survivor. I really did interview producers and consultants from dozens of other shows. But I think probably most fiction books have a healthy amount of non-fiction animating them. It's the real texture of your life. It's the thoughts you've the experiences you've had. They bring whatever fictional plot to life. I feel like it's probably true of all fiction.

Well, Stephen Fishback, but it's spelled B-A-C-H, Stephen Fishposer. Like Fishback, but it's fishback. Com. Where else can they get the book?

Anywhere. Any online retailer. Go into your local bookstore. It should be there. If it's not asked for it, because then maybe they'll order more copies, that'd be great. But yeah, hopefully it's everywhere.

My last question. You went into the bookstore and you saw your book. What came over you?

That was awesome. I mean, it was truly... It was cool because I was with my daughter, and that was really awesome for her. We, of course, read a lot, as I read to her all the time. For her to see that I wrote a book and it was on the shelf in the bookstore where she buys her books, I think was magical for both of us.

Every time you go through a bookstore, because I do this, do you go in there and look for your book and take a picture?

Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, it's only been out for three weeks. It's still very new to me. So 100% I'm for my book. Yeah, it's been awesome.

I do the same thing. I think my wife's... Because my wife and I wrote the book together, but she wasn't that excited to write it. For me, every time we walk to a bookstore and I do the same thing, I'm like, Hey, do you have this book? And they're like, Yes or no. I'm like, You don't have the book? I think you should order the book.

Yeah, there's demand.

Exactly. I'm like, You're really passionate about this book. Like, yeah, I'm like, I'm very passionate about this book. I think you should order it. But I love the escape with an exclamation mark, a fiction book with amazingly possibly non-fiction-ish added in there. I love that. Steve, this has been great. You're probably one of the most fun guests I've had, and it's something I can't stop thinking about reality TV. It's weird, and I've been so excited to have you on.

So thank you. What a great compliment. Thank you. This has been the super fun interview. Thank you for having.