Transcript of Bitcoin Pioneer: I Was Paid 100 Bitcoin An Hour When It Was $10 | Ep. 443 with Charlie Shrem and Courtney Shrem "Prince of Bitcoin"

There was a front cover page of Bloomberg where I was like throwing money in the air and was like, Bitcoin millionaires. The moment I got arrested.

We got surrounded at JFK Airport.

Courtney, when you met Charlie, did you know you were dating chaos?

I honestly didn't know what I got myself into.

Charlie Shrem got paid 100 Bitcoin an hour when Bitcoin was $10, and Courtney made history's first Bitcoin transaction. Then the DEA surrounded them at JFK.

I actually did the very first Bitcoin transaction to be accepted in a nightclub in New York City.

Did Bitcoin make Charlie a better man or nearly destroy him?

Nearly destroyed him, and then it made him a better man.

Satoshi left Bitcoin too when he disappeared. I was one of the people that—

So it's great to be with both of you again. How long has it been?

Oh my gosh, how long has it been?

When was the last time that we saw each other in person?

So you had us on a panel in LA, I think was the first time.

Yes.

And that was—

Wow.

No, I think it's 2021. I think that was like a film festival in Cannes.

Yeah, that was the first time.

That was the first time?

Yeah, that was the first time.

You guys?

Every year, over and over again in Cannes. But, uh, you guys ran an event here in LA a couple of months ago. I think it was around AI or something. Maybe a year ago, half a year ago. I don't remember.

I think it's 2022.

I have something for 2022. Oh, wow.

That time is like—

As you get older, time goes on. You know how it is. Time just flies.

Time is crazy. I don't even understand. Sometimes I look back and I'm like, wait a minute, am I 21? Oh no, I'm 42.

Yeah.

Is this even real?

Is this even real?

Yeah. Is this really happening?

Is this the Matrix?

Are we really here?

I don't even know. Sometimes I wonder, but it's great to, great to see you guys again. The interesting thing is there was a Vice documentary that came out after we all met. So I have to ask you this, were you a genius, lucky, or just early?

I was having a, a conversation with a friend today about something like this, and I think It's really about luck and then not being afraid to go after the craziest opportunities that you see possible. And then just finding yourself in a very uncomfortable moment where you're constantly waiting for something really good to happen, or you're putting everything on the line, your business and starting companies. It's like high stakes poker. So getting involved in the early days of Bitcoin, And becoming the Bitcoin Prince. I mean, you're right, there was a front cover page of Bloomberg where I was like throwing money in the air and was like Bitcoin millionaires. And, you know, I was sitting there thinking that everyone was my best friend and had the first Bitcoin exchange, founder of Bitcoin Foundation. I was one of the people that Bitcoin left, Satoshi left Bitcoin to, like when he disappeared. But, you know, when I got arrested and the whole story came crashing down, The only person that was left taking care of me was this one over here. So I mean, it's crazy how you think you're on top and then you very quickly can go down to the bottom.

And you— it's a beautiful way to live life, especially at a young age, 'cause you get both extremes. And it's like, even in moments like when you're waiting, you know, that you're dealing with or whatever in normal life, you've always dealt with something really much worse.

Yeah. Which led to my next question, Courtney. When you met Charlie, Did you know you were dating chaos?

No.

That's true.

I honestly didn't know what I got myself into. No. Um, as soon as I met him, I knew that I was in love with him. Mm-hmm. It, he just had a certain different energy that no one has ever had before that I've met. And like, we just hit it off as friends very quickly. And you would start to visit me at EBR and you'd request the same table and for 3 months. And then we were set up on a blind date and Everyone, they're like, I was working at EVR at the time as a waitress and I was getting ready to leave for the night and his best friend, my boss at the time that owned, uh, EVR, was like, we're all going out for drinks and Charlie may or may not be there. And I was like, okay, cool. You know, no one admitted that we liked each other yet and we were supposed to all go to the same establishment. So we all went and Charlie and I were the only ones there.

Yeah.

Everyone else.

Yeah, everyone else.

No one else shows up.

It was a setup. It was a setup.

No one was gonna make the move, you know.

And so we ended up having a great night that night. I did throw up on her after like the 3rd or 4th bar. And then, but when I went downstairs and came back from the bathroom, she was still there cleaning up, you know, explaining the situation.

I was like, love at first throw up.

She has my back no matter what. Like, we just met. And I was like, this only can go up from here.

I'm sorry, he's so nervous.

And Courtney is a really, really smart person and she comes to all of, a lot of my business meetings and the craziest things sometimes because she's a great judge of character and knows like, she, Courtney gives a great perspective of the situation that we're in a lot of the times. So like even, it's like even today, some members of my board will be like, let's get Courtney's perspective on the situation or something like that. Like if she let, Like if we have a business dinner, they make sure, they will literally point out and say, is Courtney gonna be there? It's like, because it's a part of the shtick in these like, you know, these like work relationships. People like it when you kind of, it's, you're bringing them into your friendship or your family.

You think there's a women's intuition? 'Cause Katie also, I don't, people, I could get scammed and I'd be shocked. She's like, no, I knew that was a scammer.

Over the phone I said, don't do a deal with that, it's bad.

And I'm 99.9% right.

99%, I save him a lot of grief and money.

Same, same situation.

I've lost a lot of money not listening to Courtney and her mom a couple years ago on like a certain business relationship. And they told me like outset and like every step of the way.

And fights about it.

Fights about it all the time. And I was like, no, no, like it's gonna work out. And I was so wrong and I'd never again. Yeah, it was bad.

Like you said, life's all about learning lessons. You guys told us this story when we first met you about how much Bitcoin you were getting paid and how much Bitcoin you were spending. It was like, I wrote down here 100 Bitcoin an hour, and I might be wrong on that, 400 or 100 Bitcoin an hour. Do you ever think back to that time?

You're absolutely not wrong. Remember the champagne showers at EBR? Yeah.

Yeah. What is the champagne showers with Bitcoin? I want to know, like, how do you stop at that?

So EVR was the, I don't know for anyone that knows our story of how Charlie and I met besides being set up on a blind date, but I actually did the very first Bitcoin transaction to be accepted in a nightclub in New York City. And then that's how we met.

What year was that? That was 2015.

That was 2015.

What is EVR?

What does it stand for?

An acronym.

Like it was a cover.

Yeah, it was a nightclub. It was for 2 years from 2012 to 2014, it was one of the top nightclubs in New York City, like line around the corner. And it was built by right beside the refinery, a couple of friends. Yeah, right beside the refinery. And it was the only bar, it was the first bar in the world to accept Bitcoin. And so you asked about like hundreds of Bitcoin an hour, which you have people that would come in and they would spend like thousands of Bitcoin and buy. One guy would, he's crazy, he would take a cart of champagne bottles 'cause, you know, champagne at nightclubs is expensive.

Expensive.

So it's $1,500 a bottle.

Champagne.

Plus we're talking like, The price of Bitcoin is $10. So 150 Bitcoin for a bottle of champagne. So it's $1,000. And we had a Bitcoin transaction system and like, I can still log in and see those old transactions and you'll see them. It's like—

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Thousands and thousands of Bitcoin a night just from people buying alcohol and food with Bitcoin. But it became, for 2 years, it was the top place, like an assembly place for everyone who wanted to like do something Bitcoin in the real world. So all the top CEOs of the companies, we orange-pilled.

It was the hotspot for Bitcoin at the time.

Did parties there. And that's also where we met. So Courtney was doing this. Courtney was the one doing the transactions.

Like she was trained on They gave me a QR code and an iPad and they're like, go off. And I thought it was just an alternative payment system and then it just ended up being a lot bigger than that.

Knowing what you know now, you guys are such a pioneer, but like, can you imagine you did the very first transaction? How does that feel? Can you even put—

It's so surreal. Like, I still think about it and I'm just like, gosh, look at where our life is today.

I know, it became a real movement.

We've been through ups and downs and, But it's— everything's been worth it.

It's crazy.

We're just so proud of ourselves because we've come so far and—

You're absolutely right.

Madly in love with each other and everything else is good.

Is it weird to think, or interesting, maybe interesting is a good word, that Bitcoin became a culture, then that obviously then crypto, like so much has happened since 2012, 2014. It's not even, Is that not even 20 years? It went from nobody really even knows what this is to basically worthless to changing the entire world. Not just the Bitcoin, just the community and just everything around crypto fascinates me.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

And it was a social experiment before I really was money.

Yeah, it was like a friendship.

Just got into it even before doing the transactions. You know, so it, for me, I went to the very first Bitcoin conference in 2013.

Oh my God, you were the only woman there probably.

I was like one of 4 because everyone else was a reporter.

Exactly.

I could guess who the people were there. I could guess.

Yeah, it was like all geeks and misfits, but so was I.

Geek squad.

And geeks and misfits, like we figure out ways to become—

Carrie Ann Boring, I think she was like one of—

Yeah, she was a reporter, actually became like a head of a top crypto lobby. But it was like, so all these, A lot of the CEOs of these, the big exchanges today, like Kraken and Coinbase and all these companies were started off as just like nerds in at the Bitcoin conference that Courtney was at. And we only took up like a quarter of the room, right? I was like dancing in the corner. It was a crazy situation.

But what I liked it too, and this is like what fascinated me about it, is because I didn't really know too much about it, 'cause like falling into it and then learning as you go. And it's just, it's really interesting because like I said, because it's a social experiment, it was like there was no judgment. It was so innovative. Like the energy when you go into that room, it was beautiful. Everyone felt like the world is amazing. We can do anything, you know? And it, and it, it wasn't dangerous. It wasn't because it, there was no stigmatism on it.

And no one was paying attention to us. There was no attention. You couldn't get Bitcoin in a media article. There was nothing. It was like emptiness. We were our own thing. And it was really beautiful. I just tweeted a picture the other day that I missed the good old days of the early Bitcoin meetups. Like, there was people walking in off the street post-Great Recession. People were all about, it was a community of financial sovereignty. Everyone involved in early Bitcoin days, these are people, you would say that everyone involved in early days of Bitcoin came with like a massive chip on their shoulder. And everyone was like wildly self-sufficient in their own way. Look at Courtney, like she left town. One-way train ticket, moved to New York City to follow a career of acting. When we met, wildly self-sufficient person, like on her own, doesn't need anyone to help her out. I was leaving, I left my family, so I, I had been cut off from my whole like community and friend, family, friend. Like, so I was also struggling. And all the early Bitcoiners also were these very types of people. So, and then the banks, they never wanted to work with us.

So we had to be very innovative. We had to fly around the world. We had to make relationships. We had to build new plumbing. All the Bitcoin financial infrastructure, the community, the conferences, ourselves as investors, everything, the media, we all did it. We did it. We self-sufficiently did it. It was very important. Like, we didn't have any help from the outside world for a long time. It was only until later did they pay attention to us.

Well, can you take me back? You guys putting that very first Bitcoin conference.

Oh my God.

What's the thought process there? Like, I know you wanted to create this community, but like, can you tell me the why aside from what you mentioned?

It's a funny question because it's the only motivation for me when I was starting the Bitcoin Foundation. Everyone had the Bitcoin Foundation was let's get anyone who has some semblance of like organizational structure or reputation in the community that they're in, and let's get everyone together and let's form like an association, like a trade group. And I was like, I just want to do a conference because I really enjoyed hanging out with people on the internet, but I wanted us to all get together in person and have a reason to, Courtney and I, to fly out to California.

And, uh, now we have friends all over the world too, which is so beautiful. We would never have met you if, you know, we weren't in the community and It's just, it's crazy.

What was that first conference like? What did we, uh—

Wild. No, it was just like I said, it was just really positive and people were just in a good mood.

We were selling t-shirts.

They had, um, a lot of paintings.

This culture. They had a rapper come on and sing. He was wearing an anonymous mask.

Yeah.

And his name was like Chow Tong, and he, he was like the weird Al Yankovic of the community. You can go to, you can go to his YouTube. And you can listen to all of his songs. They're like 2011, 2012, 2013. He's there, but he's not making anything new.

Yeah.

A lot of the early Bitcoin community made money and have decided to kind of like recede into the darkness because you don't want to be targeted. I don't know if there's a lot of kidnappings in Europe. It's very dangerous in Europe to be a known Bitcoiner. The French government like sells, you know, the tax rolls to to the, to the mafia there. It's very bad. So you have to be very, very, it's a very scary situation.

Be anonymous.

Be very anonymous.

Yeah.

I've seen, I went to prison, so like, you know, take my Social Security number.

I, I've seen, I've seen, we can get into it, but I've seen the video though. I saw like Vitalik there walking around. I saw like the guy from Coinbase walk. Yeah. All these people walking around and they look very young.

Yeah.

Just wait. Did you see any of these people and think like, Wow.

Yeah.

These people, this person specifically is gonna change the world.

No. Yes, they, you all, they were all a bunch of Elon Musks. Like Vitalik, we were all really good friends. Courtney and him were friends. Like we all tried lobster together for the first time in New York. But weirdos who are wildly self-sufficient are people who are visionaries and will stop at nothing to become, if they're like, if they have some motivation that they're motivated in, like, you know, Vitalik was so motivated by this ability of doing smart contracts on top of Bitcoin. And he ended up, he wanted to build it on top of Bitcoin. The Bitcoin community very mistakenly was like, no, no, no, Bitcoin should be only transactions, no smart contracts. And Vitalik said, all right, I'm going to go launch this on my own network, launch Ethereum instead. But he was very, he ran Bitcoin Magazine, Vitalik. So you knew these people were going to be very wildly successful and you don't want to like put up obstacles in their way. You want to— Encourage, encourage as best you can. Same thing, right? Same thing in your industry.

It's—

you got to just keep encouraging, encouraging.

Yeah, sure.

Don't lose that drive.

Yeah, Dan and I always talk about the world is run by geeks and, and yeah, pretty much not wrong.

People on the spectrum.

People on the spectrum.

Everyone's a little bit.

I'm just saying it's deeper. The ones are running it are deeper on the spectrum than maybe some of the other people.

Yeah, I, I will share, in, in prison I met some people like that though who did it for the dark side, and those are some really dangerous people. Like, people who can, who can use their autism superpowers for the negative, it's very dangerous.

How was that experience? So let's take to the darkest moments that you both have had. How was that?

What was your darkest moment?

JFK Airport.

The moment I got arrested.

When we got surrounded at JFK Airport.

We were only dating 8 months.

We were coming back from Amsterdam and my mom and a family friend was actually with us as well.

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And you were speaking in Amsterdam.

I gave a talk at a conference. Like, talk about going back and forth really quick. I was on the front page of the Dutch newspaper in color. Like, it was crazy, the juxtaposition of the high to the low. No, I never translated, but now that AI exists—

Look at that one more, because that's literally right before—

It was like a juxtaposition of like highs to lows, like front page of the Dutch newspaper. But yeah, I'm sorry for interrupting.

No, it's okay. Um, so we were coming back from Amsterdam and, um, we got off the plane and we were in customs and they were so nice to us. It's like, how was your trip? You know, yada yada. Then all of a sudden I see this person just put their hand up and then all of a sudden I see somebody else put their hand up.

And like, they all start running. What's going on?

And then I see, and then everyone just surrounded us. DEA.

It was like a, it was like a movie. They, they like got their positions in advance. It was very scary that day. Yeah. And they, they, it was like a federal, federal, like agents and they, you know, asked Courtney.

It was horrible.

It kind of read me the arrest rights and everything, asked Courtney to go claim my baggage and then shuffled me in handcuffed into like a black SUV. Kind of the rest of the night was like, if you think of like a montage in a movie, like sweeping gray, multiple cells, probably 3 or 4 different cells that night. By the time I made it to my ultimate like resting place cell, it was like probably 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning and we'd gotten— I got arrested at 6:00 PM. But the final resting place cell that night was a solitary confinement in the dungeons of New York City at the MCC. And it was, um, cold. Yeah. Well then the diesel therapy is when they put you around, they put you on a, on a bus and then they kind of like never let you land in one place. You just get shuffled like diesel bus around from week to week to different prisons. So you can never get like, position yourself comfortably and then you're just always like on the move and it messes up your brain.

Hmm.

So it's like a whole, it's a whole thing. They, it's what the inmates call it, like diesel therapy. And, uh, so I was in solitary that first night. And, uh, but luckily you were there. You were there at my bail hearing and everything. Like, what a crazy night that night was. It was over 10 years. It was a long time ago now, like 13, probably 12, 13.

A whole lifetime ago.

12, 13 years ago. But, um, but it just, it descended. That night was like the first Band-Aid pull of darkness, but it literally, that it just was like constant. darkness for a good 7 years with streaks of light, you know, sprinkled in threads that you can kind of grab onto. Um, but I really am grateful that I got arrested at such a young age because, you know, I guess when you're young, you're just an eternal optimist about everything and you just like look at it. We talked about Grand Theft Auto earlier. I looked at my whole prison experience as like, I'm living Grand Theft Auto. I'm living this video game. And this is just a cool story. Like even the most dangerous, dangerous moments, which you have a bunch in the prison system, you're still kind of looking at it as like, oh, I'll get out. God is on my side. You'll be fine. Like even in like, it's like almost like in the moments like where you see the violence in front of you, you see it, it's right there. You don't even believe it's real. didn't grow up in the world that I ever thought I would ever go to prison.

So it was like, I never felt it was real. And I feel like we watched, you know, if something were to ever happen to you, God forbid, you wouldn't even see it coming. So why like kind of worry? Just like go through, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And his optimism is really what kept me through it all. Like, and even my mom, she can vouch for the fact that like, For as calm as he seemed to be, or I don't know if it was a show you were putting on to keep us—

No, it wasn't. You just have to make the best of it in there.

You know?

What I'm saying is your optimism is what kept me together because if you weren't positive and I wasn't positive, it, it would've been—

I know I looked at everything with very eternal optimism. Like there were very bad moments where I could, it could have, the way you look at things, like for example, Um, something had happened where I had lost my— I was teaching students GED training and I really enjoyed it because I lived— I was working to help students get their GED very close to where I was living on the prison compound. And something had happened where the job was no longer available. They had had too many people or whatever, and I'd lost that job. And, you know, they kind of snickered like, oh, they're going to send the The Jewish kid over there, and they're going to send me to like drive landscaping and the snowplow and everything. And they sent me to do this very like out there. And they knew that I wasn't going to be able to communicate with Courtney because I, you know, when you're on close to the prison where you live, you can write more letters, you can write the email thing, you can, you can call, get on the phone, you can communicate better. But when you're out running these other jobs, you can't do that.

So, but little did I— I looked at it as like, oh my God. I grew up in Brooklyn. I got to drive a snowplow, a street sweeper. I'm mowing grass. I'm alone for 7 hours a day driving my truck on 5,000 acres. It was like a gift to get me— it was the biggest gift I could have gotten to get me out of the compound where fights were happening daily. So now I'm driving my own street sweeper. I mean, you cannot have— I would've paid for that. I would've given up anything for that. It was the best gift. But how some people's shit is someone else's gold, it's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, you know, I'm really inspired by that courage and like that muscles of like, man, I wanna learn. I wanna learn like what goes through your head. Like, do you practice? Like, how do you, 'cause like Charlie, one of my number one nightmare is I'm gonna make something, do something that I will make a mistake and I'll be in prison. And I told Dan like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle it myself. I don't think I can take it. Like, that's my number one fear, so—

It's not an irrational fear, by the way. A lot of people live through this like imposter syndrome. They live through this like these very extreme anxiety, irrational fears. Like, yes, it's a very, especially after COVID, it's a very common thing today.

And Courtney, how did you, I mean, aside from Charlie's positive energy and just have that strength, like how did you get by?

It was tough. Just keep yourself busy. I ended up, working in a winery just so I could get him paychecks for commissary.

You had given up a crazy career acting.

I, I was acting in, um, in New York before I met him. And during—

You did a movie in Denmark?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. That was the start.

It's crazy. Um, thank you.

But you know what? It wasn't the right timing for me. I needed to be there for you and for us and for our future. And I knew I was right about you. And I know everyone else used to fight me on it, but I knew that you were a good person and—

Love you.

Um, and with me too. And, you know, I think it's been a learning experience for both of us. I mean, it's helped our relationship, it's helped, you know, communication with each other. It's understanding, you know, more of different perspectives of each other. And, you know, we grew together in there.

I mean, yeah, we grew together with everything.

I felt like I was in prison too.

Courtney mentally put herself in prison with me.

Yeah.

I would try to just, she lived it at the same time.

You were going to sleep.

We woke up together every day. Um, we watched the same shows.

We would, um, do the online, uh, letters.

Yeah. The online letters thing.

The monitored.

They do this thing where you can write like, yeah.

And stuff like that. We would, I'd visit you when I could. Um, every 3 weeks, every, for 7, 8 hours straight. And we're playing spades and we're eating a jalapeño cheeseburger out of a vending machine and we're getting over— I showed you. Cheese Doritos in the middle of it to give it some texture.

The highlight of my month when Courtney would come visit.

No, but you know, and I, we brought my grandma before she passed and she was there for you.

A lot of friends came and visited, like really, like they, I had—

Brother.

Courtney's brother came.

Sister-in-law, they came.

I had international friends come visit.

Yeah, it was in support.

Courtney would like organize other people, cuz to get a visit in, it's very difficult. You have to file. It's a federal paper. You have to print it out, fill it out, whole background check, mail it to the federal government. Then they mail you back and you have to coordinate with the inmate. Like, he has to approve you. There's a lot of coordination to just— you can't just show up at a visit. So Courtney, like, was— had this coordinated system. People were sending me money and books and things, but just the visitation. So I never knew who was going to show up, and it was great. And I had friends from Austria come visit, my friend, like, and he'd, like, look around and he'd say, Charlie, where do you guys do like the sexy time?

The conjugal visit.

And I was like, Tom, that's, that's state prison, bro. Like, they don't do that here. I was like, it's better in federal prison though. Like, we got better food, it's nicer, they paint the walls, it's like smells good, it's bleached, we have cleaning fluid. And, uh, cuz it's a bad problem in the state prison. So he was like, no, no. And he like got, he turned red and he got, I've never seen a friend get angry for me. And he got visibly— he stood up, threw his chair down. He's like, this is torture. This should not be. I'm like, Tom, sit the fuck down. Sit down. It's fine. I'll be out in 9 months. It's fine.

So that first time when you get out, either it was really short or really long.

Yeah. No, I was in the backseat with Courtney's mom, was driving in the front seat, and she's like, guys, calm down back there. I couldn't wait even 2 seconds. So when I got out, you never forget the day you're released from prison. It's a beautiful day. You tell the story actually, cuz you guys were a little bit late, eh?

Oh my gosh. Here we go. So, um, so it was his last day of prison and my mom, I was living with my mom at the time when I, um, moved away from New York. That's how I was able to be closer to him. And it was time for you to leave and we were late because of traffic. Sorry. But anyway, it's far. He was like the last one left. And he has this box in his hand.

Like standing in the parking lot with the box.

In the middle of the parking lot.

My prison khakis.

I'm like, oh my God.

Alone.

But we weren't that late.

No, you're like—

I mean, you made it.

Maybe 15 minutes.

Probably looking, counting the seconds.

But it mattered because you're— I was getting released with friends that I was like very close with in there. And these, these were my brothers who we looked out for each other. And we just, by the stroke of luck, because we were in this like kind of, um, We're in this like cool cognitive behavior therapy experimental program that was phenomenal in the prison system. And so we got all like 3 of us got released on the same day and they, they had got like, it was like a movie. They had got released like 15 minutes. One guy got released and then we all said goodbye. And then the next guy got released. So next, like, I'm alone.

Well, at least you got some goodbyes.

And if you don't get, if they don't pick you up by noon, you have to live, go back for another day. They don't just release you out by yourself. So I'm like, should I just say goodbye to everyone? But I was like, you know, I know I made good, I was very close with, with everyone and we, uh, lifelong friendships actually. You meet some decent people in there. Actually, a friend of mine, like he was, is Italian guy. He, uh, killed it. He started this phenomenal deli, 2 delis now in New York. And Joe Rogan went there and it's Joe Rogan's favorite sandwich in the world. Oh. And we didn't realize how good it was until a couple of months ago we went and it was like, yeah, it was, uh, Giovanni's Da Future Sandwich Shop. I mean, like it, it kills it. And then another guy that I was in prison with actually is an amazing guy. He really took me under his wing. He co-founded Black Cannabis Magazine here in LA. And another guy running for office. So like, you know, you have some really good people that do some really great things and they all give back in good ways.

And Courtney's career ended up like, you use all the trauma that you've been through.

Yeah. Listen, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the acting. Yeah, I always wanted to be an actor when I was a kid. I never got accepted to any theater. I, I was horrible. I'm a horrible actor. This is my acting.

You're doing great.

How is it?

How is— how— give us some tips, because, okay, now we need to learn how to become— how do you get into the role? Like, how do you become an actor?

Honestly, for me, I, you know, I'm assigned a character that I'm supposed to be And it's within the dialogue or the text of what they're saying. You kind of— I have some kind of relation to what I'm saying to the character. So then you are able to kind of transform into that person. Um, it's a lot of situational things too. If, if it's something that reminds me of something that I've gone through in my life, Mm-hmm. you know, happy, sad, angry, depressed, whatever it is. That's how I'm able to channel it. Um, and you just have to know who you're talking to and, um, and you really have to know exactly what you are trying to get outta that person in the scene. 'Cause if you have an objective and you know exactly what you're going after, then you, you're doing your job and that's, people are gonna understand.

What do you mean?

What that person, what do you mean?

Like you, you're, you're saying that like you're living it. That's crazy.

Yeah.

That's a great, mm-hmm, that's a great analogy.

Yeah, Jim Carrey talks about when he— I forget the name.

What is—

there's a word for when you like become the character. It's like something—

The method.

Method acting. He talks about how he became someone and he got lost into that person, and it took him years to get out of and find out who he really was. Could you see that happening? Not maybe to you, just in general.

Any of those roles?

Yes.

In like real life with me?

Drama therapy psychosis.

Oh yeah.

I had to really—

Courtney has a crazy role. I'm like, oh no.

And we were living in Scotland, so it cold. It was depressing. So it worked for the genre that I was doing.

Oh, my.

It was miserable.

But it really— it's just crazy. Like, I had a moment that I just wrapped this film in Nashville that's going to be coming out. And I had a moment with this other actor. And there was a scene that we were doing. And the way that we were communicating with each other, it made the whole scene transform into something else because me and him were zoned in on listening to each other. And I was looking at it from a different perspective as he was looking at it from a different perspective. And it just, it becomes magic on screen when you don't— that's why they always say it's important to be prepared of what you wanna show the director. But then when you're on set, you have to be open and really be listening to your, your partner because it really helps drive the scene.

You guys need to have chemistry.

Yeah.

It's, it's such a true thing.

Yeah.

Do you have to go to classes or got a mentor?

Um, I do a lot of coaching and I did a lot of courses and I was a dancer first before I crossed into acting. So I was signed with MSA in New York City when I was 24, and then I kind of just was in acting from there. But a lot of casting director classes, workshops, Actors Connection. I don't know if people that are familiar in New York, that was like the place to be for all these different mentors and acting coaches and stuff to come through and a chance to be in front of the casting director and show them what you can do.

Were you thinking about doing improv? We felt like improv, 'cause I've heard improv can even help when you're in business. What do you think? Is that true?

I think it's very important. You have to be able to think on your feet. If you can't think on your feet, you sink. So, you know what I mean? Like you just, it's a good superpower 'cause you have to be in control.

When like, I'll, I'll, you get on like a Zoom with really brilliant, like on-spectrum folks like yourself and, and, and myself, everyone else, whatever.

And, um, thank you for calling me brilliant.

Yes.

Yes.

Appreciate that. Thank you.

And you guys are visionaries.

Thank you. Thank you, love.

And, um, I think we're all—

I think we're all—

I think we're all—

I'm definitely—

4 visionaries. We should come up with some problem to solve right now. And I feel like the 4 of us together could solve a huge problem right now.

But not good at small talk. That's why I was gonna say, you got— it's a good superpower. I have a friend I work with and he's really good at it too. And when he gets on, he knows exactly what to say to get people going.

So the improv helped, like, small talk? Yeah, I could see that. The more intelligent people are, the less—

They're never loud. They're just a few words and that's it.

Very quiet. We were just talking about this on the way here, how she could be silent. Like, she could, like, on a daily basis—

I have to send him a reel, like, successful people are quiet.

You send me these reels all the time. I saw that. You know your wife is telling you something.

It's interesting you say that because I feel like I'm, like, the quietest one here right now.

It's interesting because you can be quiet, you can have breakthroughs, you can, you can use technology and you can be in the moment. But we talk about like couples, we make a very conscious effort in something, especially the last 2 years with, with Courtney's career, really spending a lot of time. And I have my own career going on that we're not working as much as we used to together. And I, we do work a little bit together, but we both have very separate things.

We travel with each other.

We have to be very conscious of being present in the moment, especially on date nights and other things that we're doing. It's like—

Don't take advantage of your free time.

I have to like consciously not think about work or something. Like you have to, it's very hard to stay in that moment. So we do things together that we both love that you can stay in the moment.

And I think too, because we're entrepreneurs, it's hard to kind of like get out of that. 'Cause you're, when you're an entrepreneur, you're constantly—

It's always go time.

24/7.

Creative thinking. Like, If I'm not thinking about this, oh my gosh, well then this will never happen.

Yes, you have to be thinking, using the time always on.

Which can be mentally exhausting, but—

Oh, she'll be like, no, like I'm already spent. 'Cause I'll be like, oh, I have this idea. She's like, no, no, no, like I'm already spent.

My battery's out, I don't wanna— like he got like shatter of like ideas. I'm like, can you learn how to shut up? Like I really have to tell him that. I can't shut up, my brain's bad. Like I said, I think you'll be way more creative and can do bigger things when you learn instead Silence.

It's good.

Silence scares me. Does it scare you guys?

Yeah.

Silence.

Well, actually, no. If we're— because sometimes—

I really enjoy sitting in silence.

Say that we could be in a room together and not—

I really enjoy—

Be doing anything and just be happy just sitting there.

We both— when Courtney's reading like her scripts or really trying to get into a character, I don't want to like be sitting with her and like be on my phone or on the computer. I want to like do something off of technology too. So I study a lot of different old texts, a lot of Torah stuff, you know, different, different things, old philosophical texts as well, uh, Proverbs, anything really. And, um, it helped, really helps get my brain going. But you're not thinking, you're not using your brain for work, you're exercising it in a completely different way. But because that stuff that you're studying is so brain-filling, Mm-hmm. like, it's like watching TV. You, you got, well, that's a bad example 'cause people are on their phones and they watch TV, but like, is imagine throwing bricks over a wall. You have to focus on throwing, you could drop one on your foot. You can't be on your phone when you throw bricks over a wall. So when you study these older texts, it's like you're very in it and therefore you're not thinking about work. And then when you go back to work an hour later, you're like, whoa, I didn't think about my brain this way before.

And then you solve something that you couldn't solve before. And it works really, really well. It works like exceptionally well.

What are the biggest misconceptions that people have of each of you? Maybe You can say about the other person?

Misconceptions. I think for me, as far as like career-wise, um, I took it upon myself to, you know, go through doors that have been open to me that having to do with my husband because he loves me and he believes in me and he wants, you know, my career to flourish as much as I do. Um, that I didn't have the talent. that I just have my husband paying for my roles all the time. I do believe you do have to create your own opportunities, don't get me wrong. But I'm really grateful that I did have him.

Yeah, that's a whole common wrong misconception.

Yeah, a lot of people just assume that like, oh, anyone can act, you know? But I think because I took that door as much as I didn't want to, it got me so much further because I was proving myself through every single project. So up until this point, I can say that I'm, I'm truly proud of myself because, and I'm so grateful to you that you got me in this position.

Yeah. You made one thing on your own and it's just been snowballing since then. And like, and I just, you have to spark it.

And it's, you know, it's made me such a happier person because, excuse me, I was like, I didn't know how emotional I was gonna get. Um, it's just when you don't have that validation to even know if you're doing something correctly or not, like you're following your dream and, you know, there's— it's a very competitive career and you really have to prove how much you want it. And talent is important, but it also— If you have to humble yourself, because if you don't humble yourself, you will get lost. And I thank God I have a partner here that like supports me in chasing this dream and that we can do it together because if I didn't have him, I don't know where I'd be. And I think 2 years ago when I was pursuing this before I met him, the timing just wasn't right.

Mm-hmm.

And I went through hell and back chasing that dream and it didn't happen for me at the moment. I was getting close, you know, and then, you know, nature took its different course. But I, you know, would go through it all over again just to be where we are today. So I love you. I love you too.

There might be— I think there's a misconception around support. Like you're saying, with a couple, there's so many phases of, of relationship. It's like at one time one person supports, maybe through monetary, and then that person has to support through Then another time it switches. Now this person is support through monetary. This, like, there's different supports. I think people don't always see too, is like, oh, they think this person is making all the money, but don't know, like, this other person is also doing a lot of work behind the scenes, but it's not maybe in their face.

Yeah. I think that happened to Dan and I in the beginning. I was the one that's making a lot of money and then my business crashed, you know, crumbling down. And I was like, okay, can you give me space to just give time to heal, tried to have a baby, it didn't work. And now it's Dan's making money, but I wanna make sure that I credit it because I don't want people to assume. But, you know, to be honest, the misconception too, sometimes I remember this guy, he wanted to acquire my boutique hotel in Asia and I was doing a deal with him and he said, do you wanna ask your husband? I said, no, no, no. The only one, I was so mad.

Ask myself.

Like, I don't have to report to nobody.

How are you doing all of this? You guys do some crazy stuff out in Asia with all your properties and things like that.

I know.

It's amazing.

Yeah, thank you. It was doing well, but like, I get so insulted. Like, what do you mean I can't make decisions by myself? I built this on my own. And like, I literally told him, fuck you, don't buy. That means you're, you know, a judgmental person. I don't want you to take over my team. So I told them that.

I mean, I tell people, I'm like, Don't mess with Kate. Like, sometimes I tell people, I'm like, I wish you didn't say something to me, but don't say something to her because it's gonna go south. Like, I'm— you can walk all over me for sure, but you can't walk all over Kate. So sometimes when someone does something, I'm like, I wish you just did that to me.

I love that.

You know, that's so funny.

It's true. Don't mess with you.

There you go.

We just like strong, independent women.

Yes, right.

We do.

Most, I think.

Not all men do though.

I think it's a good compliment.

I didn't understand why.

Yeah, it's just a good compliment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't understand why. I guess, I guess you need to be a strong man to realize that you need to be with a strong woman to be, to be successful because you guys kind of like ladder each other up and you can't yourself get to a certain point and grow from there without— if your person is not at that point too. And it's like, it's a very important thing. It's physics. How to make it up?

Um, I mean, physics is science. You can't make science. Yeah, science is a real thing, supposedly. Yeah, I don't know though. I was going to ask a question regarding quantum and crypto.

Go ahead.

Is this too off the wall?

No, I think it's really good.

So there's something that we, we had a guest on a while ago and they do security around quantum, and there's something that they said that's really stuck with us.

Okay.

I thought this might be interesting 'cause at, at some point Charlie here told us that Bitcoin might be a million dollars. That I remember you told us that.

It will be, will be, will be. Even higher than that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Supposedly.

Yeah. So maybe in our lifetimes, hopefully.

Hopefully we live a long time. Yeah, just saying.

So God bless.

This next week, I'm getting in right— what time? Okay, I'm getting in right now. The markets are still open.

If you see the price start pumping, like it's $65,000 right now, like I'm telling you, that thing goes to $70,000, $80,000. As it goes higher, people are going to be piling in, and all the people who lost money in the previous bull markets are the first ones to come back. And it just becomes this like, imagine how the whole world knows about Bitcoin. Like you said, could you imagine the media frenzy when it starts going up again? Everyone knows that it could go higher. So no one's going to ever let it stop. There's no ceiling. It'll just keep going and going and going because it's gone there before now. It's gone to $150,000. So it'll just, you know, $250,000 next time around. Yeah.

So this is the fear though. This is the fear that we've talked about is Supposedly, as quantum is being more realized, potentially 2027, 2028, there's supposedly as much quantum realized that it could then hack all financial wallets as they are in this current moment.

Dude, it's an absolute real fear. It's not just Bitcoin wallets, it's the entire internet. It's the security around this This meeting that we're having right now. It's our emails, it's our banking system, it's secure relationships. It's anytime you get an update on your phone from Apple, your phone has to verify that the actual update came from Apple and there's a secure handshake that's at risk. So a hacker can come and send an update and make everyone's phone think it's Apple and boom, hack everyone's phone in the world. Like real crazy shit, like nuclear codes, everything. Like the whole world.

And you have quantum plus AI.

So it's not, so like, I don't think the Bitcoin wallets are going to be, well, you know, it will be on the first top 10 list, but it's not the first thing. But I will say this, that the beauty of the way Bitcoin was built is that it's like Lego bricks and that any new cool update in technology is very easily replaceable from the old ones. So very quickly quantum is turning and the narrative is changing from a threat into this big opportunity. Quantum is becoming a huge opportunity for Bitcoin. There's new security that leverages quantum computers to make Bitcoin more secure and cheap. There's, I mean, now maybe we could send super fast, cheap transactions finally, because we don't need to rely on old computers doing it. There's a lot of cool, we can secure those handshakes with quantum computers. There are a lot of cool stuff to do. The beauty of Bitcoin is it's easy to fix and like make that upgrade. Our bank accounts, I'm a little bit more nervous because as we know, banks are the last ones to update.

Yeah.

So you're going to see a lot of, unfortunately, other types of hacks happen before people kind of wake up and get really excited about it. But it's definitely cool because the beauty of the Bitcoin and crypto ecosystem at large is it can kind of grab all these technologies and turn them from threats into opportunities.

I really like that thought process. No, I'm not scared. I think I'm— I'm the optimist. No, I was living in fear.

Like, it's a really— No, it's not.

Oh my God.

There's some phenomenal new— so like, at worst, the Bitcoin threat, as you say, at worst, at worst, at worst, we're talking about people being able to take the old Bitcoin that Satoshi, who supposedly when he disappears, he owns like a million Bitcoin and he's never moved them. And so everyone's assuming that Satoshi will not move those coins in light of a quantum threat. But that's like the worst case. We're not talking about Bitcoin being hacked or Bitcoin not working anymore. All the cryptocurrency, Ethereum, those are like the fear, the FUD, uncertainty, and doubt. And that's why I say it's an opportunity, because what happens is these things become like ceilings where pressure builds up. And then as soon as the ceiling is lifted, And people realize, oh no, it's not a threat. The price just kind of pumps and it's going to be like a big bull market, right?

That's a million.

Yeah. I get paid by the CEO of Bitcoin. Yeah, I get paid. The CEO of Bitcoin sends me, you know, he sends Courtney the invoice.

I use your word Charlie.

Yeah.

Purchase code Charlie.

Coupon code. 50% off.

Courtney gets you 50% off.

I like the optimism. We're going to do quick rapid fire.

Oh, okay.

Are you ready?

Here we go.

Oh, you, you already answered the first one. Bitcoin at a million, crazy or inevitable?

Crazy. Not inevitable.

Okay, very inevitably crazy.

Yes.

Is money good for a marriage or dangerous for it?

Supposed to be rapid fire.

Well, I'm trying—

it's a tough question.

I was trying to think, um, Happy for it. Yeah, this is good for it. It could be, it could be a, it could be a double-edged sword, but for the most part, it, it's what makes the world go round. Money makes the world go round.

Of course.

So, Charlie, what's the biggest lie people still believe about Bitcoin?

Oh, the lie that people feel, think about, about Bitcoin is that it's like not backed by anything and it's like worthless, pointless type of thing. And in fact, it's the complete opposite.

Okay, Courtney, this is, this is gonna be intense. Did Bitcoin make Charlie a better man or nearly destroy him?

Oh man, you guys are bringing out the, the heavy ones, the heavy artillery here.

Um, it nearly destroyed him and then it made him a better man.

Whoa, that was good.

Thank you. I'm trying. It's, it's a lot of work.

Charlie, what's more dangerous in business? Is it greed or trust?

Trusting people who have greed is the biggest thing dangerous in business, really. Like trusting people who are motivated by money and greed alone and not by other things.

Courtney, what matters more in a marriage, loyalty or honesty?

Loyalty.

Charlie, 1,000 Bitcoin and your old life back or your life today?

Oh my God, life today. Not even a question. Yeah, that's, it's not even, not even, oh man.

Bitcoin won't be worth anything when it gets hacked anyways. So it's like, yeah, with quantum. No, I'm kidding.

We only have one roller coaster ride on this life and it's like, you don't get a lot of years. So to spend it with the person that I love is the best.

How do you guys want to be remembered?

How do we wanna be remembered? I think we just wanna be people that inspire other people. And, you know, you go through all these trials and tribulations through life and you have all these learning experiences. And I think I want people to know that we are very genuine and very kind people that are usually taken advantage of and I don't know. I just, I feel—

No, you're absolutely right.

I wanna be someone that knew that we were good, honest people.

Yeah.

That just wanna help others.

I'm gonna do a cool thing.

And spread a good message.

That's nice.

Spread love.

Yeah.

Spread love.

Yeah.

I like that.

That's really nice.

Well, you're the most inspirational couple.

Oh yeah.

Thank you.

You guys really love each other. Like so supportive. It's very inspiring.

Thank you. I know. I'm, I'm like, Maybe I need to step up my game. I'm not sure.

You guys are doing fine. You guys are amazing.

You, you can push yourself harder and she'll be there to have your back. And it's like, that's the best part. You can really, yeah, you'd be very surprised how strong you are. I, I really learned this my first night in prison.

Mm-hmm.

And I thought, I meditated on this for weeks and months and I was like, first night. I mean, it, I can't, can't tell you what I've seen, but when you go through it, you really realize how strong you are on the other side. And you can all do it. Everyone can do it. It's the human, like that truck of that, that story of that lady who like lifted a truck over her baby to rescue her baby. It's a real thing. Like you, we are not using, we are using maybe 20% of our capacity every single day. We need to, we could push ourselves so hard. And then having your partner will always be your back, right? Look at your career. You have 2 TV shows. 6 movies this year that you've been doing. You won a Telly Award. According to Zingy, statue in the mail.

Congratulations.

You have a statue in the mail.

That's huge.

Yeah, I didn't mean to announce it for you, but it's a very exciting thing.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

By the time this is released, you'll announce it on your own.

Yeah.

Yeah. Was it EGOT? Is that like, is that the ultimate?

It's like the Telly and then it's the Emmy and then the—

The one right before.

Type of thing.

Exactly.

But it's a respected award.

It's one of them.

Oh yeah, you get the whole thing, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All 4 awards. But you gotta sing though, right? 'Cause Grammy, I think you sing.

Yes, he says I do.

So there you go.

You can win a Grammy without singing. You could produce a record. You also— but Courtney has a past history as a rapper. She used to sing.

Oh, there you go.

There's a song on SoundCloud. You can play it in the show.

Yes, I'm gonna hear you rap here.

What did you call yourself again? Uh, it was, uh, Plain Jane.

Plain Jane.

Oh, that's her rapper name?

Yeah. And it wasn't a rap.

No, hip-hop.

It was a producer that was trying to mold me into something I wasn't, basically. Well, now you can use whether it's Sora or Sona.

You can make music now with AI.

Yeah.

So you could rap on it again or bring your— we should make a whole rap album actually, the 4 of us. That'd be, that'd be fascinating. But thank you both for joining us. Always great to see you guys.

This is so good.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.