This episode of Football Weekly, hosted by Max Rushden with Barry Glendenning, Jonathan Wilson and John Brewin, looks back at a busy weekend of Premier League results. The panel discusses Arsenal's first win at Anfield in 14 years, the penalty and VAR debate around Liverpool's game, and Manchester United's slide under Michael Carrick.
They also examine Brighton's title credentials after their win at the Etihad, the pressure on managers at Nottingham Forest and Sunderland, and the legal action Aston Villa has taken against Jamie Carragher. Listeners will hear differing views on how much weight to give stats such as shots on target.
In this episode Max Rushden, Barry Glendenning, John Brewin, Jonathan Wilson
This Football Weekly episode on Arsenal's Anfield win and Manchester United's slump was made with HappyScribe technology, the same kind behind the Teams AI note taker.
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This is The Guardian.
Hello, and welcome to The Guardian Football Weekly. Arsenal's first winner at Anfield in 14 years takes them to the top of the Premier League. Declan Rice's brilliant run and cross put it on a plate for Kai Havertz, which is exactly what Kai Havertz needed after Fleetwood. Liverpool should have had a penalty queue and an interesting conversation about players having to go down to get decisions or not. If you're Alexis McAllister, we hope his forehead is okay. Lisandro Martínez continues to do his talking off the pitch, or at least he's not doing it on it. Morgan Rodgers strolling in a straight line before Martínez got sent off. Carrick survives for now. Another chance to ask if Brighton are in the title race after they win at the Etihad for the first time.
They're up to 3rd, asterisk 2nd. Lots of managers under a bit of pressure: LeBris, Sarge, and Glasner, who isn't going to compromise anymore. And then I'll be asking each panelist to tell me in categoric and painstaking detail how big a club Aston Villa are. Lawyer up, everyone. This is The Guardian Football Weekly. You're on the panel today, Barry Glendening. Welcome.
Hello, Max.
Hello, John Bruin.
Good morning.
And welcome, Jonathan Wilson.
How are you doing?
Excellent, thanks very much. Let's begin at Anfield then. Liverpool nil, Arsenal won. So a massive win for Arsenal. They hadn't won there for 14 years, which was a stat that surprised me. Arteta was in the side that day that won that game. Did they deserve it, Barry?
I think they did, yeah. The big stat that come out of this game is that Liverpool had no shots on target, which suggests if you didn't see the game, they played really badly. And I don't think they did. I think they played quite well. They should have had at least one penalty, possibly two. Florian Wirtz cracked his shot off to crossbar, and Alexis McAllister missed the sitter. So they weren't as bad as that stat suggests. But Arsenal scored early, then trusted their defense basically to hold on to that lead.
They didn't create too many chances beyond the goal themselves. Solace brought a superb save out of Allison, and there was a moment where Havertz didn't quite get on the end of a deflected Bruno cross come shot. But apart from that, they didn't do a huge amount in creativity either. But their defense is brilliant, and their defense was stout enough to sit in a low block and keep Liverpool out. Lots of people complain that it's not particularly pretty watch, and it isn't, but it's effective, and that's all Arsenal fans care about.
So yeah, I think they did deserve it.
I mean, the key moment is the goal, John. Kai Havertz, a simple finish. It's such brilliant work from Declan Rice, who is just playing so well at the moment.
He is back on form when he might have been expected to have a significant hangover from the World Cup. He's started playing at his very best. He is, I suppose, the ultimate Premier League midfielder at this point. There aren't many pretenders to that throne, Caicedo maybe of Chelsea, but I think Rice is pushing ahead of that now. This coming from me, who still thinks that he'd be just a really great centre-back, but what do I know? I know absolutely nothing, clearly. But Barry mentioned that stat of the no shots on target.
I see video footage has escaped of a shot from McAllister where the ball is hit from a distance, and it goes into the arms of Arsenal's goalkeeper, Raya. And people are saying, "We actually did have a shot," and it brings into disrepute the collation of these stats. Is this all nonsense? Do these things matter? But I do enjoy the fact that people are trying to say, "Actually, we did have a shot on target, and it wasn't as bad." Because Liverpool, as Barry says, they weren't that bad.
But I think this season they're going to have to accept this is a work in progress. It's time to regroup. It's time to work on the team. And there's plenty. It's a work-out. Train Nairobi until I mean, I think they took him off because there was a possibility he would get himself he threw himself about a bit. And Liverpool were worse after he went off the field. I thought he had had a very good game. And Jacay looks a tremendous defender. There's plenty to go at for Liverpool. But what Arsenal did, it's the orthodox way to win at Anfield.
It's like, score the goal and hang on to it. A lot of teams have attempted that and not got away with it. But Arsenal did. And I wouldn't say they got away with it. Their defense is just so much better than everybody else's in the Premier League.
Yeah. On stats being nonsense or not, I mean, I've almost certainly said this before because there isn't a story I haven't told before. But I remember at Sky playing five aside with one of the runners who was on when they did possession stats, it was just like a guy pressing a button. And maybe it's different now. And he was just in the truck, and he heard Martin Tyler say, "Oh, last 10 minutes, Liverpool seem to have had 95% of possession. That doesn't seem right to me." And he realized he'd just forgotten he'd been leaning on the button for like the last 10 minutes and then spent the rest of the game just evening it up.
But that was 15, 20 years ago. I'm sure it's changed. They are defensively so brilliant. I mean, Consa has come in, and he's been absolutely great. His stats in this game were, if true, ridiculous. I'm not going to count all the duels that he's won, etc., etc. What is it about their defense that makes it so good?
I just think the structure is very good. I mean, I guess they're slightly not unusual, because I think other teams are starting to do it now, but they don't really have two attacking fullbacks who go on the outside. So Calafiori is quite attacking but would go inside. I don't think he's quite comfortable in aerial battles. I think Gabriel is a really good organizer there. Consa has come in and done brilliantly. I mean, is it eight tackles and five clearances? Or maybe the other way around yesterday, which are huge numbers.
But it's also the midfield works that they've got cover there. So they're just a really well-organized, well-drilled side. So their focus is slightly more on defending than some other teams. So I think we saw that last 20 minutes or so of the first half. If you press really well against them, you can cause them problems. And Brighton did that, obviously. But the thing is to keep that going, that level of intensity. A, it's really difficult. And B, you will give up chances by doing that. There's no way of playing like that without giving up chances. That was the gamble Brighton took.
And they took two quite difficult chances in the first half of that game. Those two goals from Gross, and he got the other one. But they were both long-range shots. Whereas Liverpool missed their chances, and they didn't get the penalty they could have heard. And then second half, I think John's right, I think once Nairobi went off. I think Arsenal started to balance off anyway, but Sabaslye coming on didn't have the same impact on the game as Nairobi did. And Arsenal really were pretty comfortable second half. I'm not even sure it was necessarily policy to score and then hold on. I think just Liverpool came back at them, but they were able to deal with that.
And so you look at them now, they're three points clear, but given it's City and we're expecting a point of seduction, maybe five points clear. It's very hard to see that gap being closed. You'd caveat that by saying this edge last season after nine games, there were four points clear with Bournemouth, and we were saying much the same thing. And it ended up being quite tense the run-in. But they're that much more experienced, that much wiser. And they've started to pick up points at grounds where they've struggled in the recent past. So the City ground as well, they hadn't scored in previous two games.
They nicked that 1-0. I think the other key stat for Arsenal this season is there's been seven games already, including Champions League, where they've been level at halftime and have gone on to win the game. Because their squad is just deeper than everybody else's. They can bring on subs who really help. And I think that was a huge difference between the sides yesterday. The Arsenal subs made a massive positive contribution, whereas Liverpool's didn't change all that much. And Nairobi went going off probably made them worse.
On the penalties bats. I mean, should Isak go down? It's quite interesting that there are these two conversations. One is Isak has to go down because then VAR will look at it more closely or spend more time on it. At the same time, McAllister shouldn't go down to try and get Madueke sent off. So we're in this world where we want players to both go down and not go down depending on the circumstance. Or is that conflating? I mean, it is conflating two very different parts of a football match, I guess.
Well, the first thing I'd have to ask is, has anyone checked on McAllister and Gabriel? Are they okay? And I expect the concussion protocols to kick in now, and they'll hopefully miss two games each after those terrible head injuries they both suffered. I don't think Isak should have to go down. It was clearly a foul. His shirt was being pulled back quite vigorously and almost certainly prevented him getting his head on the ball and getting a header on target.
So that should be a penalty whether he goes down or not. If he is obliged to go down and make a big song and dance about it, then that's a poor reflection on VAR because they're supposed to judge the foul, not the reaction to the foul. As for the other two, Gabriel went down holding his face when he was pushed in the chest, and Nani Madueke's put his forehead to McAllister's forehead.
There was no violence in that gesture. The argument is that Rodrigo Bentancur got sent off for doing something similar. Then there's the Nairobi foul on Odegaard in the opening couple of minutes where we saw Jean-Philippe Meteta get sent off for something quite similar the previous day. I don't think there was any malice in either challenge, but that doesn't matter. So Meteta walks, Nairobi gets away with it. Different referees have different thresholds of what constitutes a red card.
I have no problem with that play with the ref you're given. But yeah, on the Isak thing, he shouldn't have to make a massive MGM production out of it to get the penalty he deserved.
Yeah. So I was chatting to Graham Scott, the former ref, on the radio, not just like casually. He actually is a really brilliant, like of all the refs sort of former refs doing the round, he's actually very sensible. And he was talking about, I think, something in the Fleetwood Arsenal game, and I can't remember what it was, but saying, "Because VAR wants you to act so quickly, right? Because we're so annoyed about how long it takes, I wonder if they are constantly told to be in a rush, be in a rush, be in a rush." That with that Isak Timber thing, they can just be like, "See it, okay, nothing."
And Isak just sort of turned around and went, "You just grabbed my, you just pulled my shirt, didn't you?" and laughed. And I wonder, not that it should, but that was an explanation that he might make about how referees 20 years ago would spend more time on decisions, and now it's everybody get on with it.
It's interesting the media career of Graham Scott because I don't remember him as a referee. Now, does that mean that he was such a good referee that we didn't notice him?
Sure, you never noticed him.
Yeah. So it was or was it that because he was outspoken, he didn't make it into the top echelons of referees that, you know, that Michael Oliver's of this world, that because he had his own views, he wasn't able to get into the Howard Webb cartel. I don't know, but I too am very impressed with what he says about the game. You know, I'm not one of those that buzzes off ref talk. There are quite a few people that do. But yeah, he talks sensibly about it.
And unfortunately, because of the advent of VAR, something that's never going to go away, whatever the abolitionists want, it does help to have someone talking sensibly about this stuff. And as regard to the Isak thing, I did see some Liverpool fans criticizing for laughing it off. You know, just it's like, "Are you not serious enough about this game?" You know, that you have to accentuate it. I think Gary Neville got himself in a terrible model, didn't he? Saying at one point, he should accentuate the contact, and then the next minute he's saying, "Oh, he's diving."
And it makes a fool of us all, doesn't it? The dark arcs of football, don't they?
Yeah. Let's go to Stamford Bridge. Chelsea 2, Manchester United 0. At what point? No arm. Yes, no arm. 50-33. At what point do Man United turn to AI for their next manager? Jamie Jackson writing, "Michael Carrick is poised to remain in charge for the game against Roma on Tuesday despite that defeat. They've not won in nine. They've made the poorest starts of a season since 1988. Carrick's position is expected to be reviewed again during the international break." So they've got Roma and then they've got Villa before the international break.
I'm saying you don't buzz off ref chat, John. Do you buzz off Man United chat? Should we just slot in what you said last Monday? Would you like Wilson to go first on Manchester United? Come on, Wilson.
I don't understand why Michael Carrick was still in charge. I don't think he's the issue, but it's obvious he's going. Why are they dithering? It doesn't help anybody. It just leads to this drift. I mean, United just seem to, for a decade, they've been drifting, and the drift gets more and more drifty, gets worse. I lost that sentence. I'm sorry.
That's okay.
Aimless.
Yeah. I mean, the thing is, yeah.
I mean, the sentence was aimless. The word was aimless, but the sentence is aimless. Do carry on.
Even talking about Manchester United's crisis is less intense than it used to be. There's just sort of such a sense of kind of, I sort of slightly dread every time I'm asked to write or talk about United because I have nothing, I've had nothing new to say on it for seven or eight years.
That never stopped you with Cristiano Ronaldo.
Yeah, I mean, yes, it's true. But I mean, I seem to have to write about him.
Or the poor Wi-Fis of various football stadiums, or accommodation at AFCON, etc., etc., etc.
I've now got my own poor Wi-Fi today. So my own flat. It's all turned against me, the universe. Yeah, but look, we all know the problem at United is not Carrick, but equally, nothing will even begin to kind of blip in the right direction until Carrick goes. And the players clearly think he's gone, which is why they're being so ill-disciplined both on and off the pitch. I mean, Lisandro Martínez has been an absolute disgrace all season. A number of bad mistakes he's made. And then, yeah, just, I mean, the first yellow he got, he sort of committed almost two yellow card offenses in that one.
At least, yeah.
And then to sort of, to just raise your arm like that into Fofana's face. But you sort of see him, yeah, when that first happens, you think, oh, two players jumping for a head, occasionally one of them their arm goes up. But you see that, he's looking at him, he raises the arm, and the arm goes up a little bit further to make sure that it sort of doesn't hit the chest, it goes higher. So I think that could easily have been a straight red. I think he's, yeah, he's lucky to get a one-game ban. Although I suspect United at the minute might actually wish he did get a three-game ban.
I mean, I sometimes, I said this to Bass on the radio yesterday. I sort of watch Martínez and then think how him and Romero have been a centre-back partnership that's won the World Cup. Sort of blows my mind, these two people who just want to get the ball wherever it is, except for that moment with Fofana where he didn't want to get the ball, but the way Fofana's playing, you know, just let him have the ball. Like, you know, he's not going to do any damage. And the first goal, John, I mean, it is, it's just so fun to watch a player run in a straight line and just be cleaned through.
I mean, you've probably seen that. I think it's ref cam footage, isn't it? And you've seen that Andre Santos slide. Have you seen this?
Yes. It's like a computer game.
What are you aiming at there? What possibly are you? And, you know, I mean, I will say this. I think that's the first thing I've seen Andre Santos do in a Man United shirt. This must be about his eighth and ninth game. I mean, I've not seen him do anything. And as for Lisandro Martínez, if there was anyone at Manchester United with any guts, that would be the last time he played for the club. Really, it's like, okay, mate, you've dished it out to the hierarchy at the club, you've dished it out to the manager, you've shown that you have no respect for your teammates by committing these acts.
See you later, mate. Gone in January. He's not alone in underperforming for the team, but he is symbolic. You know, you need to cut out the infection within the club, and he clearly does not want to be there. So fine, see you later. Michael Carrick, after the game, is asked, "Have any of your senior players let you down?" And he tries to deflect away from the question. Just say yes. Yes, they have. The player clearly has let you down. Michael Carrick's living, must be feel like someone that's in the afterlife, because he was fired this time last week.
He is speaking from beyond the grave. This is a dead man talking. There is nothing, there is nothing more that he can do.
It's sad. Sorry, John. It's sad for Michael Carrick that he goes to the afterlife and he's doing the same thing.
Yeah, exactly.
It's not in Nirvana. There he is.
I mean, he, yeah.
Very definition of purgatory.
Yeah, he has ascended to the afterlife and he's still managing Manchester United. And it's like, this is the worst, you know, it's like there with his feet being burned at the gates of hell. And it's like, but you've still got to work out what Andre Santos does. Carrick himself, you worry for his own state of mind. And that idea that we are going to get rid of you, but we want you to carry on, that's a humiliation for anyone in any position in life.
And he has to do it in a very public way. It's very, very bad. I feel terribly sorry for him. It hasn't worked out for him. He still has sympathy for Manchester United fans, but the longer he stays around, the worse it's going to get for him. And this Roma game, I mean, I mean, would you show up for work? You know, it's just like, what's the point?
I mean, he's hoping afterlife, at least he'd have a, he'd at least have a left back. Sorry, Wilson.
Well, that first goal is a direct result of poor recruitment. So Lenior was playing at right back. And we've seen Lenior has been okay at centre back. He's been one of the more positive signings they've made in recent years. He's playing at right back. And he basically goes forward too early. The United are not secure in possession. He starts to go forward to give the option wide. Possession's then turned over. Rodgers then runs forward. Maguire knows, is it Cole Palmer? I can't remember. There's a Chelsea player who's making a run to that space behind Yoro.
Maguire's sort of forced to go out there. Martínez is just not awake and doesn't follow to, yeah, Maguire does nothing wrong there. He has to go and close that gap down. But he's entitled to expect Martínez to cover behind him. And Martínez just doesn't move. That's why that gap opens up. So it's a combination of Lenior not being familiar with playing right back and not being quite able to judge when you can make that run forward and when you can't. And then of Martínez just, his brain being scrambled and him not really focused. So, you know, you can't, Maguire ends up looking terrible.
That's not really his fault. And, you know, it's not Carrick's fault he doesn't play Yoro at right back. He just doesn't have a squad good enough.
Can you explain Andre Santos, Jonathan?
No, of course not. I'm not a genius.
Carrick's playba hasn't pulled up any trees yet either, has he? He was poor in this game.
But John, you've seen a lot of playba at Brighton and you're kind of, I know you're skeptical of his capacity to play more than 20 minutes in a game. Well, yes, and that's, unfortunately, that's been borne out because there are moments when he looks really, really good, but has to play the position that he is, which is essentially anchor midfielder, has to carry the ball. I don't think he has the consistency or possibly the fitness to do it. And the issue you've got is that a year ago, Brighton wanted 120 million for him and then sold him for 70. So what did Tony Blume know about that?
Well, we can maybe see that now.
Yeah. I mean, I actually thought Man United were quite good in the first.
Yes, they were.
I don't know if that's pushing it, Barry, but they created some good chances. You know, they should have been ahead. Amad had a couple, didn't they? And he should have squared one. So, you know, to give Carrick a bit of credit, he managed to get that performance out of the team.
They were still beaten comfortably.
Well, no, of course. By a team that I'm not sure how good Chelsea are. You know, they are clearly fun going forward. Estevao looked good, but they're still defensively pretty open.
Yeah, and you know, I told Manchester United, they were okay in the first half, but the standards by which we're judging them these days are so low that anything other than being totally abject is, oh, this is interesting. They've had a couple of chances. But, you know, if that was their best performance for a while, and it probably was, and they still got comfortably beaten, then, you know, they're in all sorts of trouble.
And Carrick is obviously going to get the gates. We don't know who'll come in instead of him. But the club is rotten from the top down, and I don't know if changing the manager will, it might have a, get a bit of a bounce for a while, but it's difficult to see us having anything other than the same conversation this time next year.
Well, I look forward, and next week, and the week after that, and I personally look forward to all of them. And that'll do for part one. Part two, we'll begin with Brighton's win at the Etihad. Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Brighton 1-1, they're at Manchester City. Hertz has unbeaten in all five Premier League games with Man City. 1-3, drawn 2. Brighton's first ever league win at Manchester City. John, I mean, it's hard to say City didn't deserve something given the chances they had.
But Brighton have now hammered Arsenal. They've gone to the Etihad and won. They are such a brave team. Such an interesting squad of players who you sort of look at and go, well, they're not all superstars, but in, you know, three years, they'll all be playing somewhere else and have gone for millions of pounds. And they'll have regenerated. So just full credit to them again.
Yeah, yeah. They are now the model club, aren't they? The one that so many others attempt to imitate. And there are, you know, you've got Bournemouth and Brentford that achieve a similar level, but not quite at those heights that Brighton are hitting at the moment, I should say, of course. And you're intimate. City did okay in this game. They played well and, you know, probably felt that they could have got something from the game. But Jonathan talked about it before, the risks that Brighton took against Arsenal to pull off that result.
And that's what they do. They play almost a high-wire act. And it can go wrong. They're a delight to watch. And, you know, Ayari scores the goal. And who else of those other clubs is looking at Ayari when Brighton sign him? And who else has the patience with players to send them out on loan, let them just settle, let them get ready and get them ready to play for the team and then introduce them with great success? And the manager himself, Hertzler.
About this time last year maybe, there were beginning to be doubts in Hertzler among some of the fans because even at a club like Brighton, fans get sometimes a little impatient and think they should move on to the next level. But the patience was shown in him. He's now probably the hottest property in coaching because of the work that he's done. Though there is an issue with that in the fact that we've seen other coaches leave Brighton and not be quite as successful or anything like as successful. We talk about Manchester United being rotten to the core.
Well, Brighton are the absolute opposite of that, aren't they? There is an issue, of course, of scaling that up to bigger clubs of grander pretensions. But there's no reason why Brighton shouldn't have grand pretensions for this season. They've been absolutely fantastic. All credit to those involved. I'm delighted to say I'm going to see them play this weekend against Brentford. Of course. Of course I'm going to see them against Brentford. And I'm really looking forward to see them play because they've been excellent.
It's a real B game. Brighton, Brentford, Brewen.
You'd imagine Bournemouth would just be flow. They should just play against each other. The three of them, the three best organized, well-run clubs.
With Brewen reporting on every single game.
The B triangle. Wilson, what are the pretensions? What should the pretensions for Brighton be?
I mean, a title challenge is not realistic. I mean, it could be that we get to February and, yeah, they're a point behind anything. Well, yeah, there's only three months left. Why not? But if they can get in the top five, if they can get in the Champions League, that would be an extraordinary achievement. I mean, this is only their second season of European football ever. Yeah, they celebrated getting in the Conference League wildly last season because I think their fans are very well aware of where they've come from and how much better this is than most of their history. So, yeah, I think it's one of those seasons where they just enjoy it.
They're playing great football if it gets them in the top five. And to be honest, it probably will never have a better chance than this because they're playing really well and other teams who are in that mix really aren't. And the fact that City are likely to be taken out of the reckoning, this is a great chance to get Champions League football. And then, you know, that's a chance to go away to four big teams or four interesting teams that you don't get to play regularly. You get four of them coming to the Amex. That's what you live for as a fan.
It's those experiences. So this is great for them, but there's no pressure on them to make a title charge. I mean, that'd be nonsense.
I mean, City were unlucky. As we've mentioned, Ilian and Dye were brilliant in this game. You know, O'Reilly has that header which he should score. Duncan and Vuskovic both made brilliant last ditch sort of tackles and blocks. I do wonder how pleased Richard Masters was, Barry. You know, like how good would it be for the Premier League if City aren't top when the sanctions happen?
Yeah, one imagines that the Premier League hope City will not be at the top. We don't know when the sanctions happen. Kieran Maguire, who, you know, I take his word on all these matters as gospel, he thinks it could be a long, long time before we have any sanctions. There's even a suggestion that City could win the league, get presented with the trophy before the sanctions are imposed. And that would just make an absolute mockery of this entire season and of the league.
Make them a global laughing stock. So I thought they were good in this game, to be honest. And a bit unlucky not to get anything out of the game. And as far as Brighton's title challenge, I'd love if Brighton were able to challenge for the title. Obviously, December is a big month for Brighton. They've never won a league game under Hertzler in December. You know, the wheels could come off big time next month. But as things stand, they're the league's top scorers. I think they've had the most clean sheets.
That's title, potential title winning for them.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you do hope the sanctions don't happen after they've won the league, but before they're presented the trophy. So the poor engraver, imagine they cut to the engraver and he's just on the, you know, the S of Manchester and he's like, "Oh God, how do I turn this into Brighton?" This is going to be tricky, isn't it? Should we go to managers under pressure? Brentford to Forest Nill. One win from nine for Oliver Glasner. And after the game, sort of more interesting than the game itself, you know, two Malenkovic deflections. The first one pretty agonizing.
Glasner said afterwards that if, you know, he's been making too many compromises and he's going to stop making compromises. And if they don't want to follow, then I guess the sixth manager will come in. But John, who is they? Who is Glasner talking about?
I'm sure he's talking about the chairman or the president, I think we have to call him, don't we? Evangelos Marinakis. Other weekend events that we'll discuss. I think Marinakis must have been looking at Aston Villa and thinking, "Man, that's some game. That's some game. I'm going to have a piece of that. That looks good." I suppose the issue is, I know Jonathan was at the game. I suppose the issue is that Glasner is running out of the excuse that I always start slowly at clubs because you don't get that long at Nottingham Forest with the ownership there.
I suppose he could be talking about the players as well. But the issue, I've seen a bit of Forest this season, is that they do not take their chances. And unfortunately, Liam Delap, it's not what it's out for.
I mean, it still could, don't you think? Because I, I mean, Lars was, who is, you know, our ex-expert, you know, expected everything expert. He was saying, you know, their numbers are way better than, I don't know, after this game, but before this game, than they suggest. I just wonder, you know, Chris Wood was brilliant last year, Wilson, for Forest. And they've gone with Delap, who clearly is more mobile. And I don't know, I saw so much potential of Delap at Ipswich. And he just looked absolutely great. And obviously, confidence is such a big thing. But I saw a bit sheer alike in this kind of very direct, very powerful, not a lot of subtlety.
But John is right. He's not working at the moment. And that is crucial for them.
Well, his confidence is shot. It's just another player who's been cheated by Chelsea. He's sort of like a broken windmill now. Just sort of, just the sails flailing all over the place, clattering people, and very unlikely to score a goal. Forest going into the weekend, I looked this morning, actually, and Opta haven't updated the table, but going into the weekend, in terms of expected points, Forest are third. They're not going to have got worse than that because they had 15 chances to Brentford six on Saturday. They should have won that game. They had loads of chances. But two goals are both freakish.
I mean, Brentford had one shot on target and scored two goals. And, you know, you said the first Malenkovic deflection is agonizing, which it is. I mean, it's a mistake by Murillo, which lets Dangarotua in. But, you know, the cross was going nowhere and it hits Malenkovic and just sort of leaps ridiculously into the corner. But then the Egor Chago goal, you know, it deflects off Malenkovic, goes over the keeper. I think it clips the underside of the bar in a way. It was certainly very close to the bar. So it could easily have hit the bar or gone over the bar.
They were desperately unlucky on Saturday. But Glastner, yeah, Saturday. But Glastner was, he was comedically furious afterwards. I quite enjoyed him. He was sort of raging that apparently a player had asked to drive back to Nottingham by himself. And he was like, "No, you will take the bus." And, you know, if you don't buy in, then you just go wherever you want by yourself. And he was sort of, he was weirdly simultaneously defending his players, saying, "Look, they work really hard." And he was sort of, "James McAtee, he sprinted back 60 yards on the last minute when the game was already lost."
So it's not a lack of effort. But then at the same time, he was saying, "You know, I've compromised too much. They have to get on board with my ideas." So I'm not really sure, you know, beyond the obvious fact that they keep on helping opponents to score and their chance conversion rate is, I think, just over 3%. I'm not really sure what else players can do apart from stop conceding daft goals, start scoring some of your chances. I don't know where the issue is there. But I mean, you'd think in normal circumstances, this would even itself out and they'd climb the table and be mid-table by Christmas. But, you know, I mean, I guess there's two issues.
One is, if you're not getting results, morale sinks and then problems get compounded. I think you can already see that when they get chances, they snatch at them. I mean, Morgan gives White not a great chance, but it opened up from sort of 20 yards out and he ends up slashing it miles wide and you sort of think a confident Morgan gives White gets out on target. But also the Marinakis factor, how long is he going to, you know, I don't think Evangelos Marinakis's trigger finger is stayed by good underlying numbers.
I mean, there was a Crystal Palace game as well where they absolutely battered Palace and still lost 3-1. So they have been quite unlucky. As well, that player who I don't think he wanted to drive home on his own. I think he wanted to stay in London for a night out. So I've seen people on social media pointing the finger at a certain Brazilian defender, but I don't know whether that is the case or not. And in these litigious times, I would hate for anyone to, you know, send me a solicitor's letter.
I like the idea of him getting off the bus in Nottingham and immediately getting in a car driving back to London.
God, you'd really want that night out.
There's a Brian Cluff story with Trevor Francis that Trevor Francis was, I ran the way back from, I can't remember, it was an away game. And Trevor Francis had some family event or something. I'm sure with Trevor Francis it wasn't the big night out. But it was something he needed to do. So he'd arranged to get picked up in a lay-by by a friend. And the bus gets to the lay-by and there's no car there waiting. And Francis is like, "I'll just stay on the bus." And the Cluff's like, "No. No, you want to get off the bus. Get off the bus." And he makes Trevor Francis get off the bus. Obviously, no mobile phones back in 1979 or whatever it was.
And Trevor Francis is stranded in a lay-by. So maybe Glassner could have done that with whichever player it happened to be.
I mean, it can be quite a risky place to be dropped off and be stranded. But anyway.
I mean, I live in London. I can't imagine anything worse than a night out in London.
Reginald Brea, under a bit of pressure. Is he? I don't know. They lost 3-1 at Coventry Sunderland Bears. I mean, they are top of most errors leading to goals this season, which is six. I mean, three of them could have been in this game. Perhaps the Radoni goal doesn't count as a mistake leading to a goal. But what do you think?
I think he's got to be under pressure if they're bottom of the table after whatever it is, eight, nine games. They're making far too many unforced stupid errors. Granit Xhaka's fabled on-field leadership seems to have just evaporated. He seems like he's just going through the motions at the moment. I don't think, well, unless I knew who they may potentially be lining up in the behind the scenes, I don't think Regis LeBree should be under pressure because I think he's earning the right to have a crack at sorting out this, the first major wobble.
And it is a major wobble the team have had since he took charge. They are obviously playing in Europe. That seems to be having a detrimental effect. The thing I couldn't understand about this game was that Sunderland are crying out for a right winger. Jocelyn Tybee played against Brentford on Wednesday night in the Carabao Cup. He was brilliant. He set up the three goals Sunderland scored and didn't get a run out in this game.
And I was just, I presumed he'd start. And he didn't start. He was on the bench and he didn't get off the bench. So I found that a bit odd. Yeah, he's got to be under pressure if they're bottom of the table.
I don't think they're playing that badly. Again, if you look at that Opta expected points chart, which to be fair, Sunderland were pretty near the bottom of last season. So they overperformed it last season. So maybe this is not the sort of the gospel truth we'd like it to be. But I think they were 13th going into the weekend. But it's a bit like Forest. They don't score enough goals. They don't take enough of their chances. And they concede a lot of stupid goals. I think the recruitment in the summer wasn't brilliant. And I think it left some shortages in the squad, which have been exposed by injuries. So they're really missing Dan Ballard and Alderettis' forms falling off a cliff since the World Cup.
Xhaka's forms falling off a cliff. Robbie got injured in the international break. He's played the last two games, but it's clearly not right yet. And there is that issue down the right, which Chris Rigg has played the last two games in the league. Does Tybee come in? I don't know. I mean, I think the feeling with Tybee is still a bit lightweight and that's maybe why they didn't want to risk him. And possibly the idea was keep it level for an hour and then Tybee comes on and maybe he can nick something. But they were 3-0 down after an hour. So that didn't happen. I do remember last season, I kept saying when Sunderland started well, it was like, well, the fixtures have been very kind.
They've fallen exactly the right way. It's the opposite this season. So if you compare equivalent games this season to last season, and you sub in the three promoted teams for the three relegated teams, Sunderland are actually two points better off this season than they were last season in the equivalent games. Now that will change on Saturday when they play Chelsea again. They won last season and I'm pretty confident they will not win this season. To play two promoted sides away in the first quarter of the season makes it slightly trickier. They've played City, they've played Arsenal, they've played Brighton, they've played Brentford, they've played Bournemouth.
They've got a run in December of more winnable games, but the danger is that Morella's already shot by then and maybe the breeze has gone by then.
Also worth pointing out that Wilson is sanding a workbench while talking to us.
Yes.
The sound you're going to hear. Barry, give us your Luko 9 stat, if you will.
Well, it's not my stat. I saw it on social media over the weekend. I checked it to see if it was true and it is. But Luko 9 has now played against and lost against Coventry City in all four top divisions of the English pyramid. I suspect that probably makes him unique among footballers.
That's an excellent stat. Thank you, Barry. Impress your friends down the pub. Or on the night out you don't want in London with your Luko 9. Your all-new Luko 9 stat. Wilson, Pierre Sarge, where's he on this? You know, I mean, the international break could be absolutely, could be a bloodbath, couldn't it? Like Palace had one their last two visits to Spurs. They didn't win this one. Three wins in a row for Spurs. But so look, if you are Pierre Sarge, John, the last thing you need is your center forward like hawing into the Achilles of Mickie van de Ven, you know, 12 minutes into the game.
Yeah, I was watching this. It was on in the corner of the Bournemouth press room at that incident. And they go to the VAR and one of the local radio lads was sat next to me and we were just watching it while, I'm sorry, Marco Rose, we were watching that instead of listening to you. And we just looked at it and then they showed the replay and both of us nodded at each other like, yeah, he's done there, isn't he? You know, and yeah, that is a loss. I mean, there's no need for him to do that.
And that sort of, it never looks good. And, you know, people can talk about, well, it looks worse on the replay. Well, that's what the replay's for, to see how bad it was. And it was very, very bad. And at that point, Crystal Palace, Crystal Palace's chance in the game was gone with their, you know, supposedly top striker out of the game. Tottenham's revival, you know, I'm here for it. I'm enjoying it. I think we've done a lot of talk about underlying numbers in this conversation.
I think those were always okay under De Zerbi and they're getting the benefits of that. As for Pierre Sarge, he's in the sort of carrot zone, isn't he? Of, you know, knowing that it's probably coming and, you know, that terrible situation where the end is probably near and you've got to sort of attempt to style it out and really, you know, it's not going to happen for you. And you hear, it's at the point where replacements are being voiced.
And I'm hearing Sean Dyche and I'm here for that.
Yeah.
I mean, both of us are.
Yeah.
I mean.
Of course, yeah.
We've missed him. I suspect he won't be there for a long time because that's not what Dyche does these days. But it would be fun and I'm looking forward to footage of Dyche on a night out in London, actually. Indie night, I think it'll be for him.
Well, I haven't really missed Dyche because he seems to be ubiquitous.
Yes, that is very true.
I see more of him now. He's ever present on talk sport. He's got into Instagram, him and his daughter having a crack on Instagram, doing various daddy-daughter activities. And yeah, he seems to be enjoying life.
Yeah, what I don't know about.
He's a regular gig goer and all that.
What I don't know about what Sean Dyche has in a curry house, I'm not sure it's worth knowing, you know, because.
Well, I'm on staff from this game. Jean-Paul Van Hekker, the first ever Premier League goal to be scored from a seated position. How tremendous.
Really?
35,478 goals.
Wow.
And this is the first one where a man has just been sitting down, which is how football actually should be played. Yes, Baz?
You've just blown my Luko 9 stat out of the water, has it?
I really have, yes.
I presumed there'd been quite a few goals scored from seated positions, but look.
Well, Luko 9, the only man to be in a seated position after being beaten by Coventry in the top four leagues of the pyramid. Yeah, look, Spurs had 34 shots to two, nine shots on target to one, 19 corners to nil. But they didn't really open them up until this teenager, Luka Williams-Barnett, came on and set up quite a presentable chance for Mohamed Kudus. But he shinned it wide. But I saw enough in that moment to think that Williams-Barnett is, you know, he's the next Rivellino.
So I'm excited about that. That'll do for part two. Part three, we'll round up the other games. Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Bournemouth 2 leads, nil. You were there, John. You weren't paying any notice to what Marco Rose said after the game. I presume you were paying some attention to the football match while it happened. What did you make of it?
Yes, I was. Yeah, it was, well, Bournemouth, you know, who we knew for that sort of free-flowing attacking style, they still have that, but now they're very good at defending as well. They've scored 16 goals in their last six matches and not conceded. So, you know, this is a team on form.
Yeah, amazing.
Marco Rose had said, he spoke earlier in the season saying that the Premier League had changed his perceptions and he had to have a rethink. Well, his rethink appears to have worked wonders, doesn't it? Obviously, the headlines go to the James Trafford mistake, you know, man of the match at Sunderland the previous week, the windy wind. No such wind to blame anything on this time. Just, it's actually borrowed very close resemblance to a mistake he made a year ago when he was a Manchester City colors against Tottenham.
Leeds have been decent until then. They'd had a goal ruled out when Dominic Calvert-Lewin scored and, but it bounced off his, you know, the top of his bicep when it went in, which is pretty unlucky. Daniel Farkas said, you know, that was the best team goal we've scored all season and it gets ruled out. Marco Rose said, you know, well, we were very lucky with that. And then it just deflated Leeds and they never really came back into the game at all at that point because Bournemouth have that ability to, the pressing, they just strangled Leeds' ability to get anything out of the game.
The Bournemouth, like under Andoni Arriola, are very impressive once again. They're a delight to watch. You look at them and they bring on Eli Junior Krupies, so there's strength in the squad. And Alex Scott's been missing too. They're the best team in football.
Yeah. Hull 2, it's which two? I mean, NCS equalizer is brilliant, Wilson. My favorite bit of this game was actually a goal that made Lisandro Martinez doing a high press on Morgan Rogers. The fact that Eric Bunham sort of runs in slow motion towards the goal. And is it Darrochet or just nobody goes anywhere near him just for about 25 minutes and he wanders in.
Yeah, I mean, they both started, I think as well as they could really give hope for. I know Hull hadn't won for, was it two months since they last won, but they haven't been playing badly. Well, they obviously haven't won, have they? But 11 points from nine games for them both. I think the last 12 years, no team's been relegated after taking 11 points from the first nine games. So they're in as good a position as they could really give hope for. So I think the, well, maybe I'm saying this because I hope it's true.
I hope there's a big battle against relegation this season. But yeah, they're now both in a position to stay out of it.
Yeah, that Eric Bunham goal was, it was remarkably similar to the Rogers goal where he picked up the ball, was it on the inside right and sort of started to make his way towards the corner of the penalty area and on and on. And Darrochet, I'm not sure what was going through his mind at that time. Yeah, it was bizarre. He just made no effort to close him down at all. And Eric Bunham, like Rogers before him earlier that day, just sort of went, all right, kept going and then latched the ball past Christian Walton in the Ipswich goal.
So. A gift from Ipswich.
Yeah. Now, apologies to the owners of Aston Villa for putting you last in the running order. I can confirm nothing to do with the relative size of the club. Just the draw with Fulham was not a fascinating game. Nicholas Jackson continuing his excellent scoring form. Suzuki, who has been brilliant this season, was quite good in this game, but chucked one in. The story is Aston Villa trying to sue Jamie Carragher for having an opinion, like as far as I can tell, John, an accurate opinion. It's utterly, I mean, I suppose nothing surprises you in football, but like, what are they doing?
What possible, what is the owner of Aston Villa doing?
It's not uncommon, is it, for powerful men to decide to wield lawfare, is it? And I'm not that comfortable with it creeping into football or into the Premier League. The thing I find strange about it is the, and you know, maybe social media isn't the best gauge of this, but the defense of that behavior, because if I was an Aston Villa fan, you'd be a little bit embarrassed about it. You'd think, is that necessary?
And Jamie Carragher's talking about this food chain. I think we'd think exists. Now, I don't think that Unai Emery will necessarily decide that he wants to go to Manchester United just because Unai Emery has a brain and probably doesn't want to put himself at that club. But the thing is about Aston Villa, this is a good time in your history. You've won the Europa League, you're playing Champions League football. Just fucking enjoy it, lads.
Come on. You know, and it's just, and like, why does, why is so much, why is everybody, you know, ashamed of nothing, offended by everything? Just crack on. Carragher gave an opinion that may not be accurate. Okay, he was flippant and he admits that. He shouldn't have, you know, he shouldn't have said, you know, a rude word, the one that I've just used actually towards them, you know. But it's just an opinion and, you know, I suppose, listen, we're talking here on a podcast, you know, and podcasts are everywhere and social media's everywhere and videos and reels of people giving opinion everywhere.
Reacting to that at one time and I'm going to say it, sorry Dan, if you're listening, it's small time behavior. It seems small time. Just accept, I have respect for Aston Villa as a club, as an entity. Anyone that goes to the club knows what a grand club that is and the pretendence it should have as a former European Cup winner and the size of the city that it represents. But just crack on. Come on, Villa. You can do better than this.
He's the richest man in Egypt. Surely you could just be happy being the richest man in Egypt.
They're never happy about 8.5 billion.
I was just like, I had 8.5 billion in the bank account. I'd probably just be like, I don't know. I think this is okay. I don't really mind what Jamie Carragher thinks. I'm probably okay with it. I didn't see, we were trying to guess what, how Carragher would address this on Super Sunday, Baz. Just we were saying he probably wouldn't, he would demand to have a lawyer present with him for his entire conversations. You said it'd be like one of those police things where the manager says, no comment. You know, I missed Super Sunday, so I'm not sure exactly how he dealt with it, but hopefully he did what we suggested and just said, you know, I'm not, until, until, who got it out of Jack Nicholson in a few good men?
Was that Tom Cruise? Until Tom Cruise comes along and then suddenly Carragher breaks. And that's the moment we need.
Well, I mean, it does seem that Villa.
You want to see Cruise?
It does seem that Villa can't handle the truth, doesn't it?
Yeah. No, absolutely. But also like, it's just like the oldest thing that we all know about football, that your club is not, unless you are a Real Madrid fan, your club is not the biggest one. That is it.
No, that's it.
You know? But the thought, the thought, yeah, the thought, as I said to Barry, the thought that you could be sued for saying one club is bigger than another, you know, the whole talk sport presenting team is absolutely terrified. And that's all the phoning's done, isn't it? What are we meant to do? Newcastle Everton tonight, we'll cover that on Wednesday. The Scottish League Cup final will take place between Rangers and Hibs. Rangers beat Aberdeen. Hibs beat Hearts 2-1. And then did an absolutely, oh, I mean, Sunshine on Leith makes me want to be a Hibs fan. I could just watch that. It just gets the hairs on your neck of all the anthems that all the clubs have.
It is just, I wish it was, I mean, Cambridge United have, I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts and it is good in its own way. But you can't all stand arm in arm weeping as you're singing that. So well done to those two.
I was going to say the Proclaimers have done some good songs really, haven't they?
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
I mean, 500 miles, Letter from America and that. I mean, that is a generational run.
A bad catalog.
Yeah.
Well done to those two lads. Whatever their names might be. Charlie and the other one. Yeah.
Craig.
Charlie and Craig. Thank you so much. How does Wilson know the names of the Proclaimers? He knows nothing else about music.
Listen, he knows, he doesn't listen to music, but because his brain operates in that way, he does know quite a lot about music. It's really annoying. Yeah.
Right. Okay.
I would say knowing the name of one Proclaimer is not a lot, knowing a lot about music.
Steve Lemack is not shitting bricks, is he? Let's be real. Six Music Breakfast with Jonathan Wilson. I'm here for it.
Your specialized subject, 50% of the Proclaimers.
Well, I'm so delighted they wrote Sunshine on Leith because occasionally when Hibs have won a match of note and I get to watch that again, it makes me very happy. And then Neil says, I'd like to know why Barry relocated a spider from the bathroom to the kitchen. Did it look hungry? Personally, I'd have relocated it to inside the vacuum cleaner. Yes. What were your tactics? It's your thinking there, Baz.
Well, there's literally nothing to eat in the bathroom for a spider. I imagined spiders kind of like dark corners and, you know, so I relocated them to the kitchen where there's a better chance he'd be able to feed himself and find somewhere dark and shady to live. I think he went and, so I put him sort of near a cobberly press type thing that he can either go under or he can go near the window and catch flies.
Producer Joel said that you didn't put him in the fridge, which obviously would be a lot of food, but you'd have to give him a little body warmer with eight little holes to keep him happy. Anyway, it feels like about the right amount.
And the reason I didn't kill him is because on my first trip to Australia, I saw a Huntsman spider and panicked because they're massive and hairy, as you probably know, Max.
Yeah.
And killed it. And then when I told my Australian friends I'd killed it, they were very, they judged me and they weren't happy. So I now am, you know, a friend of spiders everywhere.
And if you're a spider and you'd like to get in touch, footballweekly@theguardian.com. They could email quickly, couldn't they, spiders? Anyway, that'll do for goodness' sake. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, John.
Thank you.
Cheers, Wilson.
Cheers. Thank you.
Thanks, Barry.
Thank you.
Football Weekly is produced by Tyler Pupoula. The executive producer is Joel Grove. We'll be back on Wednesday.
This is The Guardian.
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Jonathan Wilson and John Brewin as Arsenal win at Anfield in the league for the first time in 14 years and go top of the Premier League. Help support our independent journalism at theguardian.com/footballweeklypod. Watch us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FootballWeeklyPodcast