Transcript of Talking Dateline: The Phantom

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Hi, everyone. I'm Lester Holt. Welcome to Talking Dateland. I'm joined by Josh Mankowits today to talk about his riveting episode called The Fantom. Josh, it's Great to see you. This is the first time we have done this together.

Yes, it is. Welcome to Talking Dateland.

Welcome to what an incredible story, which we're going to be talking about in a moment. I want folks to know, if you haven't seen it yet, you can find this program on the Dateland podcast feed. Go there, listen to it, or stream it on Peacock, and then come right back here. Josh, let me recap for a viewer right now. It was the fall of 2023. Colorado mother, Christine Krug, was found murdered in her garage after she They had been stalked for months, all signs pointing to her ex-boyfriend as the stalker and killer. But detectives soon learned they'd gone down the entirely wrong path and that Christine's ex-boyfriend had been framed by the real killer. Drum roll. Her husband, Daniel Krug. An incredible story. Josh, I want to start off with my takeaway about this episode. I was incredibly impressed with Christine, the victim in this case. She did not take this lying down. She after her stalker.

Yeah. I mean, one of the things about this episode is it points up how terrible a crime stalking is, how it's not taken seriously enough almost anywhere in law enforcement, which we can talk about later, and how even when you do everything right, which is what she did, even when you are unafraid and you stand up to this and you get the police involved and you document everything, it can still go terribly wrong and end really badly. She was nothing short of impressive in her life before this and in the way she conducted herself during this investigation, up until the point that she was killed. And that's really the thing we want to underline here, is not just what person she was and how this was not somebody who didn't take it seriously. She did take it seriously, and she got killed anyway.

Yeah. And then the stalker log, when she pulled that out, of Of course, by this point in the program, we've got an idea who she is, very smart lady, very organized. But she had a great partner also in the police Detective.

Yeah. One of the things you hear Detective Martina say to her early on is he's looking at everything she's brought in, and he says, well, this is usually something that we do, but you've done a lot of our work for us. So I have to wait this out.

This makes it so much simpler. Okay.

I did a timeline for you. Which again, tells you who she was and how seriously she took this. And I don't think there's any question, Broomfield police took this very seriously, too. A lot of law enforcement agencies have been accused of not stepping up to the bar where stalking is concerned. I think these guys worked very hard at this.

Yeah, that was one of the first things that struck me in this program was the police responding the way they did. You think they've got other things they're dealing with besides cases like this, and yet they seem to be as in it as she was in terms of the investment.

Yeah, they did. I mean, nationally, stalking is a crime in all 50 states, but it's not a felony in all of them. A lot of departments look at stalking. There's as much ground to cover between the way they're looking at stalking and the way stalking should be looked at as there was in domestic violence probably 25, 30 years ago. Certainly in our lifetimes, in our careers, it wasn't that long ago that the police response to domestic violence was, Stop doing that. You stop doing that. You two work this out. Don't make me come back here. But in this case, in Brunefield, they listened to her, and they definitely pursued this. I mean, they put her car up on a hoist to see whether she had a tracking on it. They followed her surreptitiously. They followed her husband. And they're thinking, if this guy is following you and he's getting this information, he's got to be on you. And if we're on you, we're going to see him. But they didn't see him. That's where we got the title, The Fantom.

And that's where I got a little hung up a few times, where, aren't the clues now pointing this has got to be something deeper than a typical stalking? I think at some point, you say stalking is a very personal thing, generally. Did this case follow the norms of what we tend to think of?

No. I think for all of those officers in Broomfield, I think this was the weirdest case that they have ever done. Stakely cases, generally, you know who it is, and then you can find that person, or law enforcement can speak with that person. And in this case, they had a lot of trouble finding Anthony Holland. There is The family has gone back and forth as to whether or not it would have been a good idea to deal with Anthony Holland sooner than right after Christine was killed, maybe talking to him before that. But he was hard to find. And I think the cops were unwilling to... When you go talk to someone, particularly in a case like this that involves... Stalking away everything else is digital now. So there's going to be some electronic surveillance going on here or some electronic communications, because this was Well, he wasn't showing up at the door. This was all text and email and stuff done on the phone and computer. So I think the police wanted to make sure that they had their information solidly before they went forward.

Yeah. So Chris Steele's body is found in the garage. Immediately, police figured, we know who did this. It's got to be your stalker. It's got to be Anthony. Were they blinded or was the information just so bizarre?

I I think Dan Krug, now serving the rest of his life in prison for this, did a very good job, and he also did a very bad job. I mean, he made some mistakes that made it easy to figure out who sent those messages. And he also did a very good job of setting up Anthony Holland. I think almost any police department would have believed that it was Anthony Holland. He had reached out to Christine, legitimately, he had reached out to Christine a couple of times over the years saying, you were the love of my life. You're the one that got away. I made a huge mistake. I really want to apologize. All of which Anthony fessed up to me and said, yes, I did do that. But it was years ago. But she told Dan about that, and that gave him the perfect amount of information to create a fake person, Anthony, in this case. And And suddenly, all the communication from Anthony that had stopped years ago now suddenly resume. So Christine absolutely believed it was Anthony, and the police did, too.

Police knock on his door. They're asking him questions about an ex-girlfriend. He's sitting on the sofa. I think there's a shot as the police are leaving. He's shaking hands with the police officer. This is not what any of those officers likely suspect.

No, it definitely wasn't. And I think the way that Anthony conducted himself during that interview, in addition to fact that he had a receipt for the pretty much pretty close to the time of the murder. I think that went a long way towards making Colorado police think, wait a minute, something's wrong here. This is not the guy.

Yeah, I want to just quickly go back and ask you about your interview with Anthony. What struck you about him?

First of all, I would be, and maybe you would be, I would be more furious, I think, if someone had tried to frame me for murder and also stalking. I think that Anthony, he was guileless. He's a very nice guy. One of the things we were thinking about when we were writing the episode is the minute you see him and you start hearing from him, the minute he talks in the Dateland episode, it's very hard to think of him, if you're the audience, as a stalker, because he does not seem like that guy. He doesn't have any anger in him. He was absolutely a victim in this. So he was a very nice guy, and clearly had inadvertently set himself up to be a fall guy.

Josh, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, you have an extra clip I think we're going to share for a part of your conversation with the cousin of the victim and an advocate.

At Novibet, our odds are fit for the gods. Find Jupiter's hope. And with Novibet's Super Odds, we're giving you the best odds available on all Premier League matches. That's any match, any result with bigger odds. Plus no max steak. Mighty stuff altogether. And when you sign up as a new customer, you can get up to €70 in free bets. My little legend. Novy Bet, more power to you. T's and C's apply. 18 plus. Bet responsibly. Gamblingcare. Ie. Hi, everyone. I'm Lester Holt. Welcome to Talking Dateland. I'm joined by Josh Mankowits today to talk about his riveting episode called The Fantom. Josh, it's great to see you. This is the first time we have done this together. Yes, it is. Welcome to Talking Dateland. And welcome to what an incredible story, which we're going to be talking about in a moment. I want folks to know, if you haven't seen it yet, you can find this program on the Dateland podcast feed. Go Listen to it or stream it on Peacog and then come right back here. Josh, let me recap for viewers right now. It was the fall of 2023. Colorado mother, Christine Krug, was found murdered in her garage after she had been stalked for months, all signs pointing to her ex-boyfriend as the stalker and killer.

But detectives soon learned they'd gone down the entirely wrong path and that Christine's ex-boyfriend had been framed by the real killer, drum roll, her husband, Daniel Krug. An incredible story. Josh, I want to start off with my takeaway about this episode. I was incredibly impressed with Christine, the victim in this case. She did not take this lying down. She was after her stalker. Yeah. I mean, one of the things about this episode is it points up how terrible a crime stalking is, how it's not taken seriously enough almost anywhere in law enforcement, which we can talk about later, and how even when you do everything right, which is what she did, even when you are unafraid and you stand up to this and you get the police involved and you document everything, it can still go terribly wrong and end really badly. She was nothing short of impressive in her life before this and in the way she conducted herself during this investigation, up until the point that she was killed. And that's really the thing we want to underline here is not just what person she was and how this was not somebody who didn't take it seriously.

She did take it seriously, and she got killed anyway. Yeah. And then the stalker log, when she pulled that out, of course, by this point in the program, we've got an idea who she is, very smart lady, very organized. But she had a great partner also in the police detective. Yeah. One of the things you hear Detective Martina say to her early on as he's looking at everything she's brought in and he says, Well, this is usually something that we do, but you've done a lot of our work for us. So I have to wait this hour. This makes it so much simpler. Okay, I did a timeline for you. Which, again, tells you who she was and how seriously she took this. And I don't think there's any question, Broomfield Police took this very seriously, too. A lot of law enforcement agencies have been accused of not stepping up the bar where stalking is concerned. I think these guys worked very hard at this. Yeah, that was one of the first things that struck me in this program was the police responding the way they did. You think they've got other things they're dealing with besides cases like this, and yet they seem to be as in it as she was in terms of the investment.

Yeah, they did. I mean, nationally, stalking is a crime in all 50 states, but it's not a felony in all of them. A lot of departments look at stalking. There's as much ground to cover between the way they're looking at stalking and the way stalking should be looked at as there was in domestic violence, probably 25, 30 years ago. Certainly in our lifetimes, in our careers, it wasn't that long ago that the police response to domestic violence was, Stop doing that. You stop doing that. You two work this out. Don't make me come back here. But in this case, in Brunefield, they listened to her, and they definitely pursued this. I mean, they put her car up on a hoist to see whether she had a tracking device on it. They followed her surreptitiously. They followed her husband. And they're thinking, if this guy is following you and he's getting this information, he's got to be on you. And if we're on you, we're going to see him, but they didn't see him. That's where we got the title, The Fantom. And that's where I got a little hung up a few times, where aren't the clues now pointing this has got to be something deeper than a typical stalking?

I think at some point, you say stalking is a very personal thing, generally. Did this case follow the norms of what we tend to think of? No. I think for all of those officers in Broomfield, I think this was the weirdest case that they have ever done. Stalking cases Generally, you know who it is, and then you can find that person, or law enforcement can speak with that person. And in this case, they had a lot of trouble finding Anthony Holland. The family has gone back and forth as to whether or not it would have been a good idea to deal with Anthony Holland sooner than right after Christine was killed, maybe talking to him before that. But he was hard to find. And I think I think the cops were unwilling to... When you go talk to someone, particularly in a case like this that involves... Stalking like everything else is digital now. So there's going to be some electronic surveillance going on here or some electronic communications because this was all... He wasn't showing up at the door. This was all text and email and stuff done on the phone and computer. So I think the police wanted to make sure that they had their information solidly before they went forward.

Yeah. So Christie's body is found in the garage. Immediately, police figured, we know who did this. It's got to be your stalker. It's got to be Anthony. Were they blinded or was the information just so bizarre? I think Dan Krug, now serving the rest of his life in prison for this, did a very good job, and he also did a very bad job. I mean, He made some mistakes that made it easy to figure out who sent those messages. And he also did a very good job of setting up Anthony Holland. I think almost any police department would have believed that it was Anthony Holland. He had reached out to Christine, legitimately. He had reached out to Christine a couple of times over the years saying, You were the love of my life. You're the one that got away. I made a huge mistake. I really want to apologize. All of which Anthony messed up to me and said, yes, I did do that. But it was years ago. But she told Dan about that, and that gave him the perfect amount of information to create a fake person, Anthony, in this case. And suddenly, all the communication from Anthony that had stopped years ago now suddenly resume.

So Christine absolutely believed it was Anthony, and the police did, too. Police knock on his door. They're asking him questions about an ex-girlfriend. He's sitting on the sofa. I think there's a shot Is the police are leaving? He's shaking hands with the police officer. This is not what any of those officers likely suspect. No, it definitely wasn't. And I think the way that Anthony conducted himself during that interview, in addition to the fact that he had a receipt for the pretty much pretty close to the time of the murder, I think that went a long way towards making Colorado police think, wait a minute, something's wrong here. This is not the guy. I want to just quickly go back and ask you about your interview with Anthony. What struck you about him? First of all, I would be, and maybe you would be, I would be more furious, I think, if someone had tried to frame me for murder and also stalking. I think that Anthony, he was guileless. He's a very nice guy. One of the things we were thinking about when we were writing the episode is the minute you see him and you start hearing from him, the minute he talks in the Dateland episode, it's very hard to think of him, if you're the audience, as a stalker, because he does not seem like that guy.

He doesn't have any anger in him. He was absolutely a victim in this. So he was a very nice guy, and clearly had inadvertently set himself up to be a fall guy. Josh, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, you have an extra clip I think we're going to share for We're part of your conversation with the cousin of the victim and an advocate. At Novybet, our odds are fit for the gods. My Jupiter's Hope. And with Novybet's Super Odds, we're giving you the best odds available on all Premier League matches. That's any match, any result with bigger odds. Plus, no max steak. Mighty stuff altogether. And when you sign up as a new customer, you can get up to €70 in free bets. The Little Legend. Novybets. More power to you. T's and C's apply. 18 plus. Bet responsibly. Gamblingcare. Ie.

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Let's talk about those famous words uttered by Dan, It's always the husband.

Wow. Yeah. I mean, there's a guy who has watched Dataline before. Yeah, he said that right in the interrogation room, It's always the husband. I think the cops were thinking, well, this time it definitely is. I mean, they were pretty sure by that point. Again, they wanted to wait to actually arrest him because they wanted to make sure they had all the evidence.

And there were still some questions There are questions that offered a shadow of doubt as to his guilt that could have really thwarted police down the stretch.

Well, I mean, there's no DNA. The case against him for being Christie's murderer is a a significantly weaker case than the case against him for being Christie's stalker. I mean, he bought the burnerer phone, used to text her with a gift card that was registered to him. At one point, he sent a text reading test from the burner phone to his own phone. The defense made a stronger argument against the murder case than they did against the stalker case. I think they had the feeling that the cake was baked on that other one.

There were a couple of other moments here that I think caught us all off guard. Dan's girlfriend, who had apparently reported stalking in the past.

Dan was never charged with any crime before this. So there was no record to go on. They didn't know about that until that woman heard about Dan's arrest in the news and called police. And even then, she was so scared of Dan. Sorry, I'll keep it in the mic. Even then, she was so nice.

It's for you.

I think it is. Yes. That's Susan Leibowitz from Dateland, everybody. I'm going to have to speak to her sternly. All right. She was still so afraid of Dan that She wanted us to not use her name, even though he's locked up at that point and has not been out since. But the story she told was remarkably like the story of what happened to Christine. I mean, the The allegation was that Dan had created these fake people who were pressuring this woman to both go back to Dan after she had broken up with him and also try to sabotage the relationships that she was having after that. Now, he was never charged, as I said. But that left that woman so shaken that all these years later, it's still freaking her out. And that's some example of the power of stalking. And it's also why police did not believe, and prosecutors did not believe, that Anthony Holland had hired somebody else to do the murder while he was still doing the stalking back in Utah, which would explain his His alibi is that the whole idea of stalking is this is me. I'm not my Confederate, not a guy I've hired.

It's me. I'm parked across the street. I can see you. I'm following you. I'm turning up. I'm sending you emails. I have this control over you. That doesn't work if you're outsourcing that.

Josh, as we've talked about, Christie had so many people going to bat for her, people with experience in this matter, including her cousin, a lawyer who is operated in the world of stalking. We've got an extra clip that didn't air from the interview we want to play.

Yeah, this is Becky Ivanov, who is Christine's cousin, who was a former prosecutor who did domestic violence cases, and who is spearheading the family's effort to change the law about how communications companies operate. Why isn't there a national registry of stalkers and people who've been convicted of domestic violence the way there is for sex offenders?

It's an excellent point. Having that type of information available, I think, would be really important for folks in all manner of areas in their lives, navigating personal relationships, professional relationships, et cetera. I think that But having access to that type of information can really help future potential victims keep themselves safe and make different types of choices in a timely manner. Christine did everything right. The system operated as it's currently designed, and she still got killed. And so we have an opportunity here to fix what I see as a serious flaw in the system.

You want to honor Christine by making some changes in the criminal justice system. I do. That's not going to be easy.

That's never deterred me in my life. This is a fight worth taking on. And I believe Christine would want a positive impact to come out of this horrific situation. If Christine could, I think, say anything right now, it would be, get that done. And so I'm committed. That's what we're going to do, is create more safety for for other survivors and more immediate accountability for offenders.

Becky is really talking about two things there, right? One of them is, should there be a stalking and domestic violence registry the way there is for sex offenders? Now, Dan was never charged with any crimes, so Christie will would not have known that, even if there had been a registry like that. But that's a separate question. Should there be a national registry so that women could look up the guy that's asking them out and find out whether this guy is a serial abuser. Those are questions that are out there, and this case should start that discussion. But what What Jackie Ivanov is talking about is the way that communications companies operate. At the moment, there is nothing compelling them to give information, digital information, which can be vital to police, as it was in this case, to to police in 48 hours, which is what her family wants. Those search warrants frequently take a very long time to come back. That information in a stalking case could be the difference between someone being killed and someone being saved. And they want to call that Christie's law, and they want to pass legislation requiring communications companies in stalking cases to provide information to law enforcement within 48 hours when they are presented with a legally executed, legally signed search warrant.

Yeah, Becky laid it out there. She did everything right, and yet she was killed. It makes you mad.

Well, it's impossible to look at what happened and not get angry. And certainly, both you and I have done stories like this before. I mean, this is the system operating correctly the way it is currently laid out. The question is whether or not there should be changes in the system Because there is no question that if communications companies were required to provide information in stalking cases within 48 hours, Christine, in this case, would have had a window into what's going on. She would have known it was Dan. She would not have allowed Dan to get behind her in the garage. She would have thrown him out of the house. She would have changed the locks. Now, could he still have killed her anyway? Yes. But Christine would have known the state of play. As we said in the episode, she would have known the calls coming from inside the house. That would have been incredibly valuable information for her, and it might have been the thing that kept her alive.

All right, Josh, and I'll be back with some of your questions on social media.

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Okay, we're back and we're going to answer some of your questions via social media. The first is from juliana. Spain, who said, Do you all flip a coin to see who stays at home base and who travels?

The answer is we used to do that. And then a dateland investigation revealed that Keith was using a two-headed coin. And that was why I was on the road all the time, Alaska, and he was home in California. Do you like the travel part of this, Chad? I love the travel, actually. I like sitting across from people. I mean, you get a different sense of who they are. You know this. And also, frequently, people are nervous about talking on television. If you're with them, you and maybe make them feel a little more comfortable. So I prefer being face to face. We don't flip a coin, and we don't take turns. Usually, it comes down to who is slammed at the time and who isn't, or maybe I should say who is less slammed at the time because we all are.

All right. Next question is from @officialnicole, who said, How do you handle when you know a person is lying to you?

I was a political reporter before I was at Dateland, and A politician in line to me forever. People in line to me forever. I mean, lots of interviews that you do are people who are either not telling the truth or they are shading it in some way that makes them look better. I just let them. I let people talk. Whatever your story is, if you're a murderer or if you're the mayor, I'll listen to what you have to say. And then I will be prepared because I've done the reading and I know what the case was against you, or I know what the official report say. And then you hit that person with the facts. And that's just as true when you're interviewing the President of the City Council as when you're interviewing some murderer in lockup.

Yeah. My approach is I approach these interviews with, this is your chance to reveal who you are, good guy, bad guy, however you want to do it. But let's go through this and reveal the real you and perhaps your motivation. I can't beat you up. I'm not a yeller during an interview. Aha moments are something that I think the person you're interviewing may create by something they want to reveal at any given moment. Let's go to Kylie Hart on Facebook, who says, I was just listening to episode 2 of your new special Deadly Engagement. Josh was talking about Ms. Crowley's alibi during the time of the murder, and she says she was at a doctor's appointment for her child. Josh then goes on to say the detective called the office and quickly found out she was lying about the appointment. She goes on to say, My question is, does this not violate HIPAA? Was there maybe a subpoena involved that allowed the doctor to give the information to police? Interesting question.

I am unaware of any subpoena. I think the belief was by law enforcement at the time that finding out whether somebody had an appointment did not count as personal medical information.

Well, good answer. If you want to listen to Josh's new podcast, Deadly Engagement, Dateland premium subscribers can listen to all episodes now. And as of now, five of the six episodes are available for free wherever you get your podcasts. Well, Josh, thanks very much. Great discussion. Great program. Really fascinating. Raised a lot of issues. We appreciate it. Thank you. So that is going to do it for Talking Dateland for this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about the stories we do on Dateland, you want to reach out. You can get us 24/7 on social media at datelandnbc. Com. If you have a question for Talking Dateland, specifically, leave it for us in a voicemail. The number is 212-413-5252, or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured on a future episode. We'll see you Friday on Dateland, NBC. For now, thanks for listening, everybody. So long. Are you looking for a used car from a reputable APR to keep repayments affordable.

Yes. And peace of mind with service plans that use genuine parts. Yes.

Volkswagen Financial Services takes all the boxes with everything you need for used car financing in one place. Visit your local Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda, Sayet, Coupre, or Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles dealership, or apply online at vwfs. Ie/used. Volkswagen Financial Services Ireland Limited is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Amazon Amazon Prime Big Deal days at the seventh and eighth of October. Two days of big deals on electronics, home, kitchen and more that'll make you feel less like... And more like... Feel like a big deal. Amazon Prime Big Deal days at the seventh and eighth of October. Prime membership required. Join Prime now on amazon. Ie. Okay, we're back, and we're going to answer some of your questions via social media. The first is from juliana. Spain, who said, Do you all flip a coin to see who stays at home base and who travels? The answer is we used to do that, and then a dateland investigation revealed that Keith was using a two-headed coin. And that was why I was on the road all the time, Alaska, and he was home in California. Do you like the trouble part of this, Sean? I I love to travel, actually.

I like sitting across from people. I mean, you get a different sense of who they are. You know this. And also, frequently, people are nervous about talking on television. If you're with them, you can maybe make them feel a little more comfortable. So I prefer being face to face. We don't flip a coin, and we don't take turns. Usually, it comes down to who is slammed at the time and who isn't, or maybe I should say, who is less slammed at the time because we all are. All right. Next question is from @officialnicole, who said, How do you handle when you know a person is lying to you? I was a political reporter before I was at Dateland, and a politician has been lying to me forever. People have been lying to me forever. I mean, lots of interviews that you do are people who are either not telling the truth or they are shading it in some way that makes them look better. I just let them. I let people talk. Whatever your story is, if you're a murderer or if you're the mayor, I'll listen to what you have to say. And then I will be prepared because I've done the reading and I know what the case was against you, or I know what the official reports say.

And then you hit that person with the facts. And that's just as true when you're interviewing the President of the City Council as when you're interviewing some murderer in lockup. Yeah. My approach is, as I approach these interviews with, This is your chance to reveal who you are. Good guy, bad guy, however you want to do it. Let's go through this and reveal the real you and perhaps your motivation. I can't beat you up. I'm not a yeller during an interview. Aha moments are something that I think the person you're interviewing may create by something they want to reveal at any given moment. Let's go to Kylie Hart on Facebook who says, I was just listening to episode 2 of your new special deadly engagement. Josh was talking about Ms. Crowley's alibi during the time of the murder, and she says she was at a doctor's appointment for her child. Josh then goes on to say the detective called the office and quickly found out she was lying about the appointment. She goes on to say, My question is, does this not violate HIPAA? Was there maybe a subpoena involved that allowed the doctor to give the information to police?

Interesting question. I am unaware of any subpoena. I think the belief was by law enforcement at the time that finding out whether somebody had an appointment did not count as personal medical information. Well, good answer. If you want to listen to Josh's new podcast, Deadly Engagement, Dateland premium subscribers can listen to all episodes now. And as of now, five of the six episodes are available for free wherever you get your podcasts. Well, Josh, thanks very much. Great discussion. Great program. Really fascinating. Raised A lot of issues. We appreciate it. Thank you. That is going to do it for Talking Dateland for this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about the stories we do on Dateland, you want to reach out. You can get us 24/7 on social media at datelandnbc. If you have a question for Talking Dateland, specifically, leave it for us in a voicemail. The number is 212-413-5252, or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured on a future episode. We'll We'll see you Friday on Dateland, NBC for now. Thanks for listening, everybody. So long. Are you looking for a used car from a reputable dealer network?

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