Transcript of Spellcaster testifies at murder trial. Legal fireworks in UNC student murder. Plus, cars and crime. New

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So this story is in Dallas, Georgia. You're listening in to the Dateline morning meeting.

These two trials are back to back, and we think they're gonna happen.

Producers are catching up on breaking crime news. It's this milkshake that he has, and then they have this vial of blood.

She's sort of the lead on this Facebook group that called attention to the case.

I got a lot of people sending it to me saying, like, "This is like a tailor-made Dateline." Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly.

I'm Alison Barber, NBC News correspondent and host of the Netflix video podcast, Allegedly, filling in for Andrea. It's June 18th. Here's what's on our docket. Legal fireworks in Durham County, North Carolina, as the defense attorney of a man accused of murdering a college student points the finger at her roommate.

The defense alleges Karina must have been in the apartment when Faith was killed.

In Dateline Roundup, we're inside the courtroom for two dramatic sentencings. A judge has strong words for Tracey Grist, the Utah mom who masterminded the murder of her son-in-law. And Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Heuermann faces the tears and anger of the families of the women he murdered. What you have done to our family is beyond what words can express. Plus, cars and crime. A veteran crime scene investigator tells us what he looks out for when he's processing a car for clues.

A lot of vehicles have touchscreens, which are fantastic. It's basically saying, leave your fingerprints here.

Before all that, we're heading back to a San Diego courtroom where an unusual witness took the stand last week and transported the jury to a world of charms, energy work, and powerful magic. It is week 5 in the trial of Larry Milieta, the Navy optician accused of murdering his wife Maya back in 2021 and hiding her body. Prosecutors say when he found out Maya was planning to leave him, Larry tried everything. Including spells to keep her. When that didn't work, they say he killed her. Larry denies murdering his wife. He does not deny buying spells. The jury has already heard how much he spent on them, more than $1,000. And last week, they got to hear from one of his favorite spellcasters, Tess Joy, a woman with long blonde hair that he met online who promised to turn his desires into reality for a fee. Except Tess Joy was not the person Larry thought she was. In person, turned out Tess Joy was actually a heavyset, redheaded man named Frank Peavey. And whether you believe in magic or not, Frank had a story to tell the jury about Larry's state of mind leading up to his wife's disappearance.

Here to fill us in is NBC7 investigative reporter Alexis Rivas. Hi, Alexis. Thanks for being here.

It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Okay, so before we get into spells and magic, take us back to 2021 when this case began.

So 39-year-old Maya Millete vanished from her home in Chula Vista on January 7th, 2021. The last sighting of her was on her neighbor's surveillance camera as she got out of her car and walked into her home, and she shared that home with her husband Larry and their 3 young kids, but there is no footage of her ever leaving that house.

Larry was arrested for Maya's murder 9 months after she vanished, and Maya's body has never been recovered, but prosecutors believe Larry killed his wife because of a relationship she had with another man, right?

So, in part, yes. Prosecutors say she was having an affair with a coworker of hers. His name was Jamie Laird. And Maya clearly wanted a divorce. In fact, prosecutors say they think that was really the catalyst to the day that she vanished.

So, for me, I feel like I can confidently say I have never heard the word "magic spellcasters" in a courtroom. What do you make of it? Like, is this a first for you too?

Yes. And I think, you know, this is a witness that I don't think anyone is gonna ask gonna forget anytime soon. So, yeah, more than a month into this trial, this witness comes to the stand. His name is Frank Peavey. By day, he works in SEO. Online, he goes by, as you said, Tess Joy. And according to his website for spellcasting, he claims to have joined a mystical coven in 1997, claims to be a licensed energies worker. There's, uh, no such thing. There's no license for magical energy.

Where does one get that?

Yeah, okay. And he, I think, also said he got a degree in Hypnosis from Bryce University. Bryce University doesn't exist either. Anyway, he says on the stand that he believes he really can turn your desires into reality using altars, gemstones, and herbs, and these spells.

Do I ask what is the going rate for spells these days? Like, what's a werewolf turn versus just, I don't know, I want good luck?

So, some of them are, you know, around $30, maybe a little less, maybe like $10. But some, you know, the combination of immortality and the ability to fly for example, I think was $99.99. So, like, $100.

Pretty reasonable.

Yeah, I mean, it's a bargain, really.

What kind of messages was Larry sending?

Initially, they were things about making Maya not want to leave, making Maya fall in love with him again. But he did get pretty explicit with some of the requests he wanted of Maya, you know, to humble her. In fact, he explicitly asked for several sexual acts. And Frank testified that, It's not unusual for people to be desperate. They often come to him in a state of desperation and vulnerability. However, he says usually he'd get, like, 2 messages a day. Larry would send him 27. It was just nonstop, rapid-fire messaging.

Let's talk about the defense, right? Because on cross, they didn't get up and say, "This is not true. Larry's never in his life bought a spell." But they did try to say, "Frank, maybe we don't trust," right?

To the jury.

Yeah, they definitely poked holes into Frank's— credibility. And as for the spells themselves, I think the main point they drilled down in the cross was none of the spells wanted Maya to disappear. All of them were about bringing Maya closer.

So the defense is saying, "You might think this is weird, maybe you wouldn't do it, but look at what it says. This is a guy who is desperate and wants his wife in his life, not out of it." Is that true based on the totality of the messages that you've seen from Frank/Tess Joy, and some of the other, quote-unquote, spellcasters.

He was messaging, I think, up to 5 spellcasters. So, you know, they start with "making her love me." They go into "sex slave" and sexual acts, and then they turn into "punish her." There were some requests in his phone about wanting to have an accident, perhaps, maybe a broken bone. That's really the headline spell requests that the prosecution wants this jury to think about, that This is a man asking someone to hurt his wife. Another big reason I think that the prosecutors go so far into the spellcasting evidence is because after Maya vanishes, all of the spell requests about Maya stop.

The affair between Maya and her married coworker, it is kind of at the heart of this case. What do we know about this guy, Jamie Laird?

So, this is the witness I think everyone is waiting to hear from. Jamie is someone who worked with Maya, and he was married to a woman who was 3 months pregnant around the time they started having an affair, according to some of the witnesses we've heard from the prosecution. So far, we just know that Larry had caught Maya in the car with Jamie Laird, and we just found out that in the third search of the Milieta home, when police arrested Larry, they found abortion paperwork inside of a closet in that home. That's pretty huge because we had seen some of these spell requests where Larry mentioned that Maya got pregnant, and that maybe it was Jamie's, and she had an abortion, but no medical professional's been able to confirm that on the stand.

Do we think Jamie Laird will take the stand, or is it still a bit of a question mark?

The prosecution is motivated to do this, according to some criminal defense attorneys that I've talked to, because they need to take the sting away from the idea that she had this affair. And they need to present that so that the defense doesn't come in and kind of drop it like this bombshell revelation. But a big part of the defense's case was going to be third-party culpability. They asked before this trial even started if they could present evidence showing that Jamie Laird is Maya's killer. And there's a couple things about him that are suspicious that they mentioned in the opening statements. The anniversary of their affair is the day that Maya vanished. The next day, his wife gave birth. The judge ruled, though, there wasn't enough for them to bring up any of that evidence in court. Mm-hmm. Court. But you gotta think they're going to try to ask quite a bit of him during this cross-examination.

Alexis Rivas, we will be watching your coverage. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us.

Thank you so much for having me.

Coming up, a controversial defense filing in the case of a murdered college student prompts the prosecutor to make a bold request. Honey, did you invite the Minions over?

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Rock and roll royalty spent Sunday mornings with Willie Geist.

This summer, Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger, And this weekend, Keith Richards. Do you still get the joy out of making music? Eh, it's better than jail.

This Sunday morning on Sunday Today with Willie Geist on NBC.

Hey, guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down Podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with the biggest rock star of them all, Mick Jagger, to talk about the Stones' latest album and his favorite of the band's iconic records. Over all these years. You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.

It's been almost 14 years since Faith Hedgepeth, a college student at the University of North Carolina, was beaten to death in the bedroom of her off-campus apartment. Next to her body, investigators found a cryptic note. It said, "I'm not stupid." Bitch. Jealous. It looked like the killing might be personal. And yet when investigators made an arrest 9 years later, their suspect, Miguel Salguero Olivares, had no known connection to Faith. He's pleaded not guilty to multiple charges, including first-degree murder and rape. And in a stunning pretrial motion, his defense attorney has raised troubling questions about someone who knew Faith very well. And according to the defense, may have been in the apartment at the time when she was killed. Her roommate. The prosecutor has called the motion provocative and a distortion of the truth, and recently asked the judge to seal future pretrial motions from the public. Here to tell us more is Dateline producer Mike Nardi. Mike, welcome back to the show.

Hi, Allison. Thanks for having me.

So, for people who don't know this case, it is fascinating, and I didn't realize it'd been going on so long. Tell us a little bit about Faith, because like most college students, she was young, full of dreams, and really seemingly working towards a future.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. Faith was 19 years old, and she was a biology major who planned on going to med school. She was of Indigenous heritage. She was part of the Hallowell-Saponi Native American tribe in North Carolina. And her hope, her dream was to— go back to where she had grown up and be a pediatrician in that part of the state. And at the time, she was living with her friend, Karina Rosario, while she was waiting for her financial aid package so she could move into her own apartment. They were sharing a one-bedroom apartment at the time.

You mentioned this roommate, Karina. She's the person who found Faith's body, right? And called 911 sometime after 11:00 AM. On September 7th, 2012. What do we know about the early hours of the investigation?

Well, when Karina called 911, she told police that she had come home and found Faith unconscious, and that there was blood everywhere. When the paramedics arrived, they saw that Faith was dead, and it appeared that she had suffered severe head trauma. She was found on the bed, and there was that note that you talked about. It was handwritten on a paper bag, like that you would get fast food in.

I mean, you read the text of it. It's an aggressive note, right? When investigators saw that note, did they immediately think this has been left behind by the killer?

I think considering the circumstances, and like you said, the nature of what was written on there, the assumption had to have been that this was connected to the killing, that it had been left by the killer, perhaps as a warning or as an explanation or justification.

Where did investigators think Faith was the day of her murder? What was she doing, and was she by herself?

Well, they do know that Faith and her roommate, Karina, had gone out that night. They'd gone to a nightclub called The Thrill. Karina told police they left around 2:15 AM and went back to the apartment. Karina said she later called a friend to come pick her up. And then the next morning, Karina said she found Faith when she got back to the apartment.

So how did they ultimately end up connecting Miguel Salguero Olivares? To this crime and charging him?

At a press conference announcing his arrest, the Attorney General said his DNA matched DNA left at the scene. And, you know, we're not quite sure how they sort of zeroed in on him. We know that he had been arrested for a DWI, and we don't know if they had reason to believe that he might have been the perpetrator and took his DNA and tested it purposely to try and match it.

What do we know about him and his background?

Very little. The local paper says he is from Guatemala, and he lived in an apartment complex nearby. Prosecutors added a burglary charge to the charges of murder and rape, and we'll have to wait to trial to figure out how he allegedly got into the apartment.

Earlier this year, Miguel Salguero Olivares's attorney, James Rainsford, he filed this motion asking the judge to secure the attendance of that roommate, Karina, at the upcoming trial. The motion calls her a material witness and then lays out why the defense attorney believes she is important to this case. Break down for us what is going on because it seems significant.

So, in this motion, the defense raises questions about Karina, what she might have seen, and also her story to investigators. According to the motion, Karina told investigators she was sick, when the girls got home from the nightclub and spent an hour or so in the bathroom.

What is significant and/or interesting there?

So, the defense attorney points out that crime scene investigators noticed about a 2-inch bloodstain in the bathroom, right where Karina told investigators she'd been sitting. The defense says the stain was, in fact, Faith's blood and was a transfer stain. So, in other words, the type of bloodstain that happens when someone, you know, who had blood on their hands, it drips off or smears off.

So, does it seem like the defense is about to make an alternate suspect theory here of some sort and say, "Hey, we believe Karina had Faith's blood on her hand and was potentially involved here"?

You know, I'm not sure if that's exactly where they're gonna go, but they're certainly trying to sort of cloud the water there in terms of whether Karina played a role in it or if she knew about it. But he's asked the judge to allow him to test the swab taken by crime scene investigators at the scene to see if that lab can identify the DNA of whoever transferred it for the blood.

All of it seems pretty vague, right? Even if it does come back as something that was on Karina's hand, there is still no saying when the blood got there.

Right.

But there is more. Karina told investigators that a friend picked her up from the apartment that night. And in the motion, the defense alleges that that friend told investigators he noticed a small smudge of blood on Karina's right finger. And the defense goes on to say that investigators processed the car and found a stain that could be blood on the indoor passenger handle.

The defense motion includes one more claim about Karina's story that is fairly explosive.

Take us through that. Right. So according to this motion, the medical examiner determined that Faith died around 2:51 AM. Karina and the friend who picked her up said Karina left after 4:00 AM. So the defense alleges Karina must have been in the apartment when Faith was killed. We asked the medical examiner to confirm the estimated time of death, but we haven't gotten a response yet.

Has Karina said anything about those specific allegations?

No. I don't believe Karina has ever spoken publicly about what happened that night.

And she's never been charged in connection to the murder, right?

No. No.

Could we see her take the stand? What did the judge decide?

The judge agreed to issue what's called a certificate to secure attendance, meaning she's been summoned to appear. And while that sounds dramatic, one thing we have to bear in mind is that Karina does not have live in North Carolina.

The DA in Durham County has sharply criticized the defense for this motion, telling one local newspaper that it contained a, quote, "bunch of falsehoods and allegations that were not true." Right.

We don't know which allegations she believes are distortions or untrue. But the prosecution asked the judge to seal pretrial motions and court orders moving forward, arguing the defense might taint the jury pool with inaccurate, incomplete, and inadmissible information.

Do we think that could happen here?

Well, the judge refused the prosecution's motion now, but said he's keeping the door open to revisit the issue.

Given it has been so many years since Faith died— I mean, we're talking 14 years now. The trial is coming up in September. Do we know how her family is doing?

Well, I mean, the family's coping, which I think is all you can really expect. They're ready for trial, they're hoping for answers, and they want justice for Faith.

Thank you so much for bringing us up to speed on this case. We appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. Emotions run high at the sentencing of Tracey Grist, the Utah mother who plotted to murder her son-in-law, and the sentencing of the Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Huerman. Plus, what happens when a car becomes a crime scene? A crime scene investigator gives us the lowdown. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline booking producer Caitlin Cutt. Caitlin, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me.

For our first story, we're heading to Suffolk County for the sentencing of the Gilgo Beach serial killer. It is a case that started in 2010 when police were searching for a missing woman along a remote stretch of coastline and then discovered human remains. —then another set, and another, and another. 11 in all. Some of the victims, their bodies were wrapped in burlap. Some of them were dismembered. Many of the victims were sex workers when they were killed. This past April, Rex Huberman, a husband, father, and architect from Long Island, pled guilty to murdering 7 of the women and then admitted responsibility for an 8th. On Wednesday morning, Huberman was back in court for sentencing. Kaitlin, set the scene for us. What was it like in court?

Well, as you know, this is such a huge case. Our NBC team was there. The courtroom was packed with spectators and family members of the women that Rex has been convicted of killing. Just a lot of emotions, you know, in the courtroom from the very start.

Yeah, I can imagine for so many of these families, they have been desperately looking for answers for so long. When Uherman admitted and pled guilty back in April, people in the courtroom said that he showed no emotion. At the time. There's video where you can see him kind of walking in with what looks like a smirk. What was he like this time?

He walked in emotionless. He was wearing a suit with a blue shirt and a yellow tie. His handcuffs were taken off as he sat next to his attorneys.

Who, in terms of families of the victims, spoke today?

You know, first of all, let's start by reading the names of the victims that Rex was convicted of killing. Melissa Bartholomew, Megan Waterman, Amber Lynn Costello, Maureen Brainard Barnes, Sandra Costilla, Jessica Taylor, and Valerie Mack. There's also Karen Vergata. Heuermann was never charged with her death, but he did take responsibility. Now, there was a victim statement entered for each of these women, but not everyone was physically there in the room.

Valerie Mack's family, including her parents, they were there, right? And had— some very strong words for their daughter's killer. What you have done to our family is beyond what words can express. Even though justice is done, it cannot replace what you have taken from us.

And her son also shared what was on his heart, and you could hear the pain in his voice.

I think about her son a lot because I remember reading this article. It was from a British publication. I think it was The Observer. But he talked about the last time he saw his mom when he was 6 years old, and said they played video games together the night before and had a sleepover. She'd left in the morning. And how he spent his whole life thinking his mother had abandoned him and then found out when he was much older the truth, that she had never left in the way that he thought. For these families, all of them, there are so many layers to what has happened to them, the pain they have felt over the years.

Is there anything you wish to say before I pronounce sentence? Stand up.

One of the biggest moments, it came when Rex Heuermann, actually spoke himself.

There are no words I can say. I am responsible for what was said in this room today. The words I would say have no meaning, and I'm gonna leave it there at this time.

So what was Rex Huerman ultimately sentenced to?

Judge Timothy Mazzy sentenced him to 3 counts of life without parole. And he had his own sharp words for him.

I know that you're sorry that you got caught. I assume that you're sorry for what you've done to your wife and children. Are you a little bit sorry for what you did to these poor innocent women? 8 women that you strangled to death, at least 8 that we know of. Are you at least a little bit sorry for that? Yes? Yes, I am. You know what? You've been described as a very big man, but you're a disgusting and You're a despicable small man, if you're a man at all.

And you're a coward. Wow. This case is one that has clearly touched everyone involved. Next, we're gonna head to Provo, Utah, where there was another sentencing, this one for Tracey Grist. She was sentenced for her role in the 2024 murder of her son-in-law, Matthew Rustelli. Caitlin, 3 family members were ultimately convicted in connection with this murder plot. But at her sentencing, the judge singled out Tracey.

You were clearly the mastermind in a plot that led to your son-in-law's death. A man who simply thought he was coming to Utah to pick up his wife and children.

And he had a lot more to say, but before we get to that, remind us what happened in this case.

Okay, so, back in July of 2024, Matthew Ristelli arrived at his mother-in-law's home. Just minutes later, he was shot and killed. Now, at the time, Tracey told investigators that Matt had entered the house unannounced, and that her son, Kevin Ellis, shot him in self-defense.

But investigators, were they quickly learning things that they felt did not match with that story?

They did. Almost immediately, investigators began developing a very different theory, that Matthew had been lured to the house by his wife, Kate, and intentionally murdered.

And what did prosecutors give as the motive?

Essentially, this is a custody story. Matt and Kate shared two children, but their marriage was falling apart, so she took the children to her mother Tracy's home in Utah, where, according to prosecutors, Tracy came up with the idea to lure Matt to the home and ambush him.

So Kate pleaded guilty to her part in all of this, and she testified against her brother as well as her mom when they were on trial. Her brother, Kevin Ellis, was convicted of several charges, including murder. He was sentenced earlier this year. So that brings us to Tracey.

Exactly. Tracey was convicted in April of murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

Her sentencing happened a few days ago, and Matthew's younger brother, Jonathan, got very emotional when he was talking about what his family lost when Matthew was killed.

And then he addressed Tracey directly.

A grandmother is supposed to protect their grandchildren. Tracey, you destroyed your grandchildren's potential future.

And he wasn't the only one who had strong words for Tracey. The judge did too.

In the court's view, you're incredibly dangerous, and your character and actions show that any rehabilitative needs are overcome by your willingness to kill simply for you or your children's convenience.

Judge Roger Griffin ultimately sentenced her to 15 years to life on the murder charge, plus additional prison time for conspiracy and 2 counts of domestic violence in the presence of a child. The judge ordered all of those sentences to run consecutively.

Just a disturbing and devastating case all around. Caitlin, thank you so much for all of these updates.

No problem. Thank you for having me.

There's so many ways a car can be relevant to a murder investigation. It's come up in a few high-profile cases of late. The case of Ohio teen McKenzie Sherrilla, who was convicted of murdering her boyfriend, Dominic Russo, and a friend, 19-year-old Davion Flanagan. Both were passengers in McKenzie's car when prosecutors say she drove 100 miles an hour into a brick wall, killing both of them. Karen Reed, many people know, was acquitted at her second trial last year after she was accused of running over her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, and leaving him to die in the snow. It got us thinking about cars and crime. It could be the actual crime scene, the murder weapon, or even a witness, right? So how do crime scene investigators process a car that is involved in a suspicious death? And what kind of clues can a car offer up to crack a murder? Dr. Mike McCutcheon is a former detective sergeant with over 21 years of experience in crime scene investigation and estimates he's processed hundreds of cars. He's here now to tell us how he does it. Dr. McCutcheon, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Hey, thank you for having me.

I'm glad to be here.

For you, as a veteran crime scene investigator, how do you describe the art of forensically processing a car, can it make or break a case?

Absolutely. You have to think of a vehicle— it's just another piece of evidence. So there's 3 things you're going to look at: the outside of the car, the inside of the car, and then the telematics. That is, I'll say, your navigation-type systems. That's telling you when the car started and when it stopped, those type of things.

What are some of the unique things that you're looking for when you're processing just the outside of a car? Like, I think about in cases where people are describing so specifically, like, "We know this tire mark was made by this tire company with this sort of tread." So now—

now you're getting me excited because I love tire tread. Like, I'm getting goosebumps now. It's the individual characteristics that you're gonna look for. If there are rocks stuck in the tire tread, or there are rips or tears, or maybe there's a flat repair or something like that, that's gonna make that tire unique. That's what's going to tie that that tire to that tire tread pattern that we saw at a crime scene.

When you're looking for fingerprints, where are the most common spaces that you tend to find those?

So on the outside of the car, of course, you're going to look at, you know, the door handle, but also you want to look at how people shut their doors. Like most people, when you open the door, they kind of slap it shut, and so they're touching, we'll say, like in the middle of the window, kind of shutting the door. On that way. And then on the inside of the car, steering wheel, radio, any of those things that they might touch. Now it's really great, a lot of vehicles have touchscreens, which are fantastic. It's basically saying, "Leave your fingerprints here." And then we as a society eat and drink and live in our cars. So I look for any garbage that is left behind in a car. I may look for fingerprints, but I may look for DNA because people leave their coffee cups, straws, food, wrappers, receipts. Receipts are fantastic. I can use that, compare it with the telematics that I got from where the vehicle is, and now I'm locking all these pieces in. So now I know where your car's been.

This idea of possibly having a car that you are searching, trying to gather clues from, where maybe a body was transported in that car, I find it fascinating. In part because we have an episode coming up next week on Allegedly where we're looking into the case and the allegations against David. The singer who has now been accused of killing a 14-year-old girl named Celeste Rivas Hernandez. He's pleaded not guilty to multiple charges. When police found her body in the front trunk of a Tesla, they knew within days of finding it that this car was registered to David. But it took about 7 months for them to make an arrest. And based on what we know in terms of the allegations against him, that car was not where she was killed. So it's a secondary scene, right? What kind of clues do you have to look for to kind of backtrack to try and determine the original crime scene when you start in a car?

If someone was killed in a car, and depending on their wounds, there's going to be a lot of DNA and bloodstains that you would be able to find very easily if you're using— I use Blue Star, but essentially Luminol to find blood that has been cleaned up. If you think that that is the secondary scene, well, we'll go back to using those vehicle telematics and the navigation and things like that. Now that can get real time-consuming, 'cause if I say that that car was charged at a particular gas station, well, now I have to go to that gas station, try to find a video of that car pulling in, who's in that video. Well, now I have to try to identify those people. So it can be quite time-consuming to match up your digital forensics with your physical evidence that you're going to try to— Figure out. Confirm what the digital evidence tells you.

When you think back on your career, is there a specific case where you're like, "I found something, and I had a moment where I thought, 'Whoa, I didn't expect to find that, or to find that there'?" Yes.

So, I was investigating a case where an ex-boyfriend was trying to blow up his ex-girlfriend's house. He used cloth with inside apple juice jars of gasoline that he lit on fire. And I found a sock in his clothes in the back that was the same sock that was partially burned in one of the apple juice jars. Now I can match the fibers from the sock to say, "Yes, this is the same sock, or the same material." And finding that sock was— was fantastic, you know? You don't know what you're looking for sometimes until it pops up, and then you're like, "Oh!" Yeah. This is fantastic.

Wow. This has been such a fascinating conversation. Dr. Mike McCutcheon, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Yeah, anytime. Thanks for having me.

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. But before you go, let me tell you about my colleague Keith Morrison's new podcast series, Five Miles from Home. It's about the murder of 16-year-old track star Mickey Costanzo. And when you listen, it brings back all kinds of memories about high school, the friendships, the romance, the drama. That's the life Mickey was living until an ultimate betrayal cost her her life.

Did you ever say to him, "Get rid of her"?

No, I didn't.

"Get rid of her or you lose me." No.

Episodes 1 through 4 are out now wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're like me and just can't wait to find out what happens next, you can get early access to the remaining episodes ad-free by subscribing to Dateline Premium. And coming up this Friday on Dateline, we have another Keith story for you. It's a bizarre tale involving deception, silence, and honestly, this is the strangest clue I've come across in a case— a custom silicone face mask.

He came in, and he saw the video and said, that's her hair, that's her face, that's her body shape.

Watch Secrets Unmasked Friday at 10/9c on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, Kiani Reid, and Rebecca Glaser. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Groff and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kurloff. Veronica Maseca is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer. Thank you. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

Friday night on an all-new Dateline.

I'm sorry I didn't come forward.

Her murder went unsolved for decades, but one man knew the truth.

It is just mind-boggling.

Now for the first time, he's speaking out to us.

What actually happened that night?

An all-new Dateline, Friday night at 10/9c, only on NBC.