Transcript of Lindsay Clancy’s defense. Luigi Mangione’s bombshell courtroom confession. Plus, ghost guns.

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Hi, I'm Kate Snow, NBC News anchor and host of the NBC News podcast, The Drink. This month, I'm sitting down with the hilarious Leslie Jones. We chat about her remarkable journey from her childhood to family hardships to the unexpected, almost accidental road that led her to comedy. From her unforgettable years at Saturday Night Live to her new show, Roast My Rental, about vacation rentals gone terribly wrong. It is a funny, candid conversation, and I hope you'll give it a listen. Join us for The Drink. Listen and follow now wherever you get your podcasts.

Good morning.

It's the start of another workday for the Dateline team here at 30 Rockefeller Center.

And then you've got this jailhouse informant.

He said, I overheard him, he told me everything.

Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news around the country, swapping tips and story ideas.

We were on the cusp of hearing something. But that's where it gets murky.

By sunrise, he's dead. It was a huge story.

Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's August 20th, and here's what's on our docket. In Manhattan, UnitedHealthcare CEO shooter Luigi Mangione makes a stunning admission.

We heard from Mangione in his own words actually describe the events leading up to the shooting. In December of 2024.

In Dateline Roundup, the Alec Murdoch saga continues in South Carolina with some major rulings, and the first of 3 people charged in the murder of Microsoft employee Jared Breidigan is now on trial. Jared's widow takes the stand.

She was immediately emotional.

Plus, ghost guns. Police found one in Luigi Mangione's backpack. What exactly are they, and why do they make investigations so difficult?

When you have a firearm that doesn't have a serial number on it, it isn't able to be effectively traced in the traditional method.

But before all that, we're heading to Massachusetts for the trial of a former labor and delivery nurse accused of murdering her 3 young children. And a warning, some of what we'll be discussing is upsetting and involves mentions of suicide. After 3 weeks of testimony, prosecutors rested their case against Lindsay Clancy, the 36-year-old mother they believe was of sound mind the night of January 24th, 2023, when she killed her 3 young children, Cora, Callan, and Dawson. Prosecutors called about 70 witnesses, including the children's father, Patrick Clancy, the psychiatrist who treated Lindsay, and the first responders dispatched to the horrifying scene. Jurors won't have to decide who killed the children. Lindsay already admitted to that. The question is, why did she do it? Lindsay says she was overmedicated and suffering from undiagnosed postpartum psychosis at the time. On Monday, the defense began calling witnesses, and jurors got to hear from those who knew Lindsay best. Here to walk us through their testimony is Nate Eaton of East Idaho News and host of the podcast Courtroom Insider. Nate, welcome back.

Thank you, Andrea. Good to see you.

Yeah, you too. So Nate, the first witness the defense called was Margaret Hamp. She is a nurse who worked with Lindsay at the labor and delivery unit at Mass General Hospital.

Yeah, they worked together for about 7 years. Margaret described Lindsay as a very compassionate nurse. She was kind. She really related well to the patients. She'd actually get emotional often helping patients when they were giving birth. It really touched Lindsay.

She would— she would cry and she would just say, "That was so beautiful." You could just tell that she really loved being in that setting.

And she went on to talk about how the two worked the night shift together, and Lindsay would often ask for parenting advice from her co-workers. Things like, "How do I find "how do I find the right daycare?" to "how do I monogram my lunchbox?" She was a really involved mother.

Wow.

So Margaret Hamm also described an instance where a patient arrived at the unit with plans to harm herself while she was pregnant. And she said this happened the summer Lindsay started working at Mass General. She recalled talking to Lindsay about mental health in pregnancy and postpartum.

Right. And she actually asked her specifically if she had heard about the Andrea Yates case. Lindsay had not heard of it. Andrea Yates was the mother who confessed to drowning her 5 children back in 2001. She claimed she suffered severe postpartum depression. She was ultimately found not guilty by reason of insanity. Hamp described Lindsay's reaction to learning about the Yates case and says that Lindsay cried.

And she said, how could a mother hurt her children?

Lindsay's sister and mother were also among the first few defense witnesses. They described how Lindsay's mental state was deteriorating in the months before the children were killed. Here is her sister Allison Ozga recalling how Lindsay was around Christmastime 2022. She was reporting her mood was worsening, um, as she described as depression. Um, her—

she was having more suicidal thoughts.

Um, she was— insomnia continued to be an issue. Um, she was really not feeling like herself.

Allison went on to say that Lindsay told her she had suicidal ideations every single day that month.

Lindsay's mother, Paula Musgrove, she was asked about a text message Lindsay sent to her around that time, a little bit earlier than that Christmas.

Yeah, and Lindsay's defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, presented that text message, uh, a message that Lindsay sent on October 20th. She had Lindsay's mother read that to the jurors.

Mom, will you please come up and stay with me for a bit? I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible insomnia all night and I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day. I started taking the medicine my doctor prescribed for anxiety and I think it's made things worse. It's just really scary and I don't want to be alone.

Lindsay's mother went on to say that she stayed with her daughter for about a week after receiving that message. She testified that, uh, she stayed with Lindsay several other times in the months leading up to her children's death to help her daughter. And she said that Lindsay was so afraid to be alone that she even once asked her mom if she could sleep beside her, which she did. Lindsay also told her mom that she believed all the medications she was taking were destroying her mind.

She said that she couldn't remember anything. She said, this isn't me. I just want to feel better and enjoy my kids again. Hmm.

Well, so Paula, her mom, told jurors that by Christmas Lindsay was in a terrible state, and she remembered something else that was disturbing that Lindsay told her and Lindsay's then-husband Patrick Clancy.

This is the first time we heard this, Andrea. Uh, Lindsay's mom described how Lindsay was very nervous when she told her mother and Patrick, I just have to tell you guys something.

She told us that she had thoughts of harming the children.

This is all very hard to hear, Nate. This, this is such a tough trial. How did Lindsay's mom appear on the stand? How painful for her to have to get up there in this courtroom of this very public trial and have to be talking about all this about her daughter.

Yeah, I mean, she's testifying at her daughter's murder trial. It was an extremely emotional experience for her. Also, she's talking about the deaths of her grandchildren, whom she loved very much. She was a very involved grandmother. She became the most emotional talking about her 3 grandkids.

I loved my grandchildren with all my heart. You never know what it's like to love a grandchild until you become a grandmother. And it was the most beautiful thing. I love them with all my heart.

So painful. Lindsay's mother wasn't the only grandmother to testify Her former mother-in-law Susan Clancy also took the stand.

Yeah, now remember, these are defense witnesses, so these are the witnesses backing Lindsay up. This is Patrick Clancy's mother Susan, and Patrick Clancy was married to Lindsay and the father to their children. He's also standing beside her. He's already testified in the trial. In fact, he was the first witness they called by the prosecution. So it's interesting now to see the mother testifying about how Lindsay reached out to her for help as well.

Susan Clancy was a former labor and delivery nurse herself for 38 years. And she talks about referring Lindsay to a clinic at South Shore Hospital for women struggling with postpartum.

Right. Lindsay went to her mother-in-law and said, "I need some help." And this is where it got kind of interesting. When the Commonwealth was presenting its case, they were certainly trying to paint Lindsay as a patient who didn't take her medications as had been prescribed. But Lindsay's defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, asked Susan about this. She's answering both as a healthcare professional and as a grandmother here.

Did you find that, that Lindsay was interested at all times in trying to get better and see doc?

Very much so.

Did you find at all— you have an opinion with your observations of Lindsay as to whether or not she was offered help and would just spurn it and not see doctors and not have treatment?

She was begging for help. Nate, before we go, our local affiliate NBC 10 in Boston, they've been in the courtroom and they've observed that more than half of the 18 jurors in this trial skew older, maybe in their 50s or above. Some may even be grandparents. It's an interesting demographic for a trial like this, right?

Yeah, it is an interesting thing. But also think about the people that are involved in this case. You have Kevin Reddington, Lindsay's attorney. He's 75 years old, no-nonsense local guy who's done dozens, hundreds of trials over the years. He's held on to Lindsay's hand when she has sobbed during difficult testimony, kind of like in a grandfather or a fatherly kind of way. Then you have the prosecutors, both women, younger, noticeably younger than Reddington. One often wears bows in her hair. And there's been multiple studies, Andrea, on how the age of jurors can impact deliberations. Those studies have found that older jurors are significantly more likely to convict versus younger jurors. But it's an interesting dynamic to see how this is unfolding every day, and we'll see if if age really did play a factor at all, or if it's more of a human type of connection, or, or how these jurors ultimately reach their decision.

And I know just as a mother of 6, the, the more time that separates you from when you gave birth to your children, the more you start to forget, you know, how, how hard things can be.

Absolutely. If you're going through this last year or within the past 2 years, you're going to remember far more clearer than if you were raising kids decades ago when the circumstances surrounding postpartum and mental illness weren't discussed as openly as they are now.

Really good point, Nate. Well, we will keep an eye on this as the defense, uh, keeps calling witnesses. And of course, a lot of people are waiting to see if Lindsay herself will testify. Feels like a tricky decision, but one she will have to make. Nate, thank you for these updates.

Thanks, Andrea.

Coming up, Luigi Mangione's double jeopardy battle and what's next after his plea.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with the talented, charming, and hilarious Tracee Ellis Ross to talk about her Broadway debut in a one-woman show and the new season of her travel series that has Tracee seeing the world solo. You can get our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts.

On Friday, correction officers escorted Luigi Mangione into a Lower Manhattan federal courthouse. He was wearing tan prison scrubs with his leg shackled. It will be 2 years this December since UnitedHealthcare CEO Bryan Thompson was shot and killed outside the Hilton Hotel in Midtown. Mangione had something to tell the judge. He pleaded guilty to two federal stalking charges, admitting he shot Thompson that chilly morning. But Mangione's saga is far from over. Less than an hour after the hearing ended, his defense team filed a motion asking to dismiss the 8 charges he's facing in state court, including second-degree murder. He is still pleading not guilty to those charges, and now his upcoming state trial has been postponed indefinitely. NBC News senior legal correspondent Laura Jarrett is here to break it all down and tell us what this means for Mangione. Laura, thank you for being here.

So happy to join you.

So we have both been covering this case for a while now, since the day of the shooting in December of 2024. There was the manhunt and then eventually the arrest of Luigi Mangione in a McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania. And so much has happened since then, but throughout it all, Mangione has maintained his innocence. Laura, now here we are with him taking this plea. It is really big in this case.

It's a really remarkable moment given just how aggressive and zealous this legal team has been. And even despite this guilty plea, my inbox is flooded with people saying he's not guilty, free Mangione. And so to have this moment where he finally, in his own words, had to admit that he was in fact guilty. It's just kind of stunning.

Karen Agnifilo, one of Mangione's attorneys, she spoke outside of court after the plea hearing. Let's take a listen to what she had to say.

Despite this being a single isolated event, Mr. Mangione has been unfairly treated since the outset in every way, fighting at the same time two simultaneous prosecutions in two jurisdictions who are trying to punish him twice case for the exact conduct.

Before we get to the actual plea, Laura, can you just give us a breakdown of what Mangione was charged with in both federal and state court?

Yeah, sometimes you see these sort of dual prosecutions going on parallel tracks. In this case, the feds came out swinging with a whole bunch of charges. They then, as a result of a bunch of defense motions, got whittled down to stalking. That's on the federal side. Then on the state side, he faces is a charge of second-degree murder, as well as a number of gun charges. It's something that his attorneys, Andrea, have talked about, double jeopardy, as this principle of, you know, not being tried twice, since the very beginning of this case, when he was facing charges in Pennsylvania and in New York and, you know, on the federal and state level. And almost immediately, everyone sort of just brushed it aside as like, yeah, yeah, whatever, you can be tried in different jurisdictions And only now in this moment, just weeks away from trial, does the whole prospect of double jeopardy really take on some salience because he is now, in fact, pled guilty and set to be convicted in federal court.

This is like a game of legal chess. I feel like we're dealing with here.

It's an—

it's like a law school exam. This entire Mangione case is a law school exam.

All right. So back to federal court. Just sort of give us some color in the courtroom. Who showed up? Up to this hearing.

So Brian Thompson's ex-wife and mother were there. We believe this is likely the first time they've actually been in the same room and confronted Mangione. They were emotional, as you might imagine, listening to him admit in open court to what he did. Um, we did not see or have any reporting to suggest that anyone from Mangione's family was there.

The judge asked Mangione to say in his own words why he believed he was guilty of the charges.

Yes. So for the first time, we heard from Mangione in his own words actually describe the events leading up to the shooting in December of 2024. We heard him describe how he was in severe pain. He had back pain. He was navigating the health insurance industry. But we also learned, Andrea, that he actually reaches out to executives at UnitedHealthcare to learn the location of the investor conference where Bryan Thompson was supposed to be in Manhattan. And he actually posed as an investor, and he said that he was managing over $50 billion in assets. And so he was requesting information about the conference for that reason. He talks about traveling, uh, to New York. He talks about how he got there. He talks about using the 3D printer to make the gun. Again, all of these little bits and pieces he's giving us— of course, as reporters, we want more, but they also or intentional, Andrea, because every time he talks about the gun, he's not just talking about it for, like, fun and to add detail. He's, he's mentioning the gun because he's facing weapon charges in state court. So he wants to make sure he gets in all of the details so that he can encapsulate everything that could possibly come his way in state court to say, hey, look, see, I admitted everything in federal court.

And we should be clear, Mangione wasn't offered anything in exchange for this plea that we know of, correct?

No. So this is what's known as an open plea. And the prosecutors, uh, really wanted to emphasize this because when we think about a deal, you think about like a tit for tat. Someone got one thing, someone else got something else. Prosecutors want to emphasize, we got a guilty plea on the exact thing that we charged him with in the indictment. The state trial was set to go forward in just a few weeks, and that's why the timing of all this was so critical and so sensitive for him to get the federal piece of this buttoned up. Now that he has pled guilty in federal court and he has a sentencing date there, now we see in state court the judge postponing the state case because the defense is saying, well, he's now pled guilty. He cannot be tried twice for the same offenses, the same act, the same criminal transaction.

Thankfully, New York law does not permit a person to be prosecuted and punished twice for the exact same crime under a statute that governs successive prosecutions. And we just filed our motion in state court explaining why the state charges must be dismissed under New York's double jeopardy protections.

Laura, could something like this actually work?

Yes, I think that there's actually a chance. The reason why, Andrea, is because New York law law on this issue of being tried twice is very favorable to defendants. And it's, it's, it's much more all-encompassing than even the U.S. Constitution is when it comes to double jeopardy. The New York law says as long as it's all part of the same criminal transaction, then that person cannot be tried twice.

What is the prosecution's response to this? And I'm talking about prosecutors in state court.

Yes. So prosecutors in state court believe that this case should still go forward. They are going to fight her hard on this. Prosecutors' basic line will be, "This is not the same crime. This has different elements." So there's a stalking charge in federal court, which has a different element than a second-degree murder charge in, in state court, for instance. Stalking and murder address different harms, and therefore, you cannot see these two as the same crime. As the same for the purposes of double jeopardy.

And he is still pleading not guilty to those state charges. That has not changed.

As of this moment, he has still on record in state court having pled not guilty, but only saying that he believes the state charges should now go away entirely.

Okay, so as for his admission in federal court, federal guidelines for stalking suggest a sentence of 24 to 30 years, but the judge is not bound by that. So Mangione could actually face a much harsher sentence in prison. Laura, when will that sentencing take place?

That will move forward to sentencing on December 18th. On December 10th, at the same time, the judge in state court is going to hear arguments from both sides about whether or not that case should still go forward. And so there's going to be a whole lot of paper flying in December around the holidays.

Yeah, this is going to be a big month for all of this. Laura, thank you for so splendidly breaking this down for us because it is very complicated. And for those of us who are not attorneys, you're definitely making it a lot easier for us to understand. We appreciate that.

Thanks.

Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. Alec Murdoch is back in court ahead of his upcoming retrial. And one of the 3 people charged with murdering 33-year-old Jared Breidigan faces a jury. Plus, after Luigi Mangione's admission, we had questions about homemade firearms. A retired ATF special agent joins us to talk about ghost guns. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline producer Carol Gabel.

Hey, Carol.

Hey, how are you doing?

Good. Up first, Carol, we are talking about former attorney Alex Murdaugh. He was back in a South Carolina courthouse for his second pre-trial hearing since his double murder convictions were overturned. And Carol, this is a saga you've been following from the very beginning. Remind us about the first murder trial and why Murdaugh was granted a new one.

So just to recap, Alex Murdaugh went on trial in 2023 for the murders of his wife Maggie and his youngest son Paul. The jury found him guilty, and he was sentenced to two life sentences. Soon after that conviction, his defense team filed an appeal for a new trial. His appeal was denied, but eventually it made its way to the South Carolina Supreme Court, and this past May, the justices ruled that I would get a new trial.

Carol, what was the point of this pretrial hearing?

So on the agenda on this day was the all-important change of venue. Both sides agreed to change the venue. What they didn't do is come to an agreement on where that new trial should be held. The judge said in this most recent hearing that she would decide and let them know where the trial will be held.

Carol, one of the things as well for this hearing was whether or not Alex Murdaugh's testimony from his first trial could be admissible in his second trial.

And that was a huge, huge win for the prosecution. The judge said that portions of his previous testimony would be allowed in this new trial, and then it sets up another problem for the defense, because should he decide to testify again, you know the immediate question's gonna be, "Were you telling the truth then?

Are you telling the truth now?" Okay, we'll keep an eye on that one for sure. Next up, we are turning to Florida, where the trial is underway for the first of three defendants accused of murdering 33-year-old Jared Breidigan, who was shot and killed in Jacksonville Beach H in February 2022. He got out of his car to move a tire blocking the road when he was shot. His 2-year-old daughter sadly was in the back seat. Prosecutors allege that Breidigan's ex-wife Shanna Gardner and her husband Mario Fernandez-Saldana hired a man named Henry Tennant to ambush Breidigan and carry out the killing. All 3 defendants in this case have been charged with several crimes including murder. They have all pled not guilty. So, Carol, first of all, just remind us what prosecutors say the motive was here.

So prosecutors say this really goes back to this long, bitter custody battle between Jared and his ex-wife, Shanna Gardner, over the twins they shared. Jared had actually just dropped the twins off at Shanna's house right before he was killed. Now, the prosecutors believe Shanna and her husband, Mario Fernandez-Saldana, came up with that plan to get Jared out of the picture because of the ongoing disputes.

Tennant is set to go on trial next year. Shanna Gardner's trial is coming up next month. The trial of her husband, Mario Fernandez-Saldana, that got underway on Monday. In opening statements, prosecutors told jurors they will hear evidence that Saldana helped orchestrate Jared's murder and hired Henry Tennant to carry it out. The defense says Tennant acted alone, and there is no evidence tying Saldana to the killing. Carol, tell us about some of the testimony that we've heard so far.

Yes, the first person the prosecution called was a woman named Janelle Cruz. She described the moment she and her husband spotted Breidigan's car that night, but the most gripping part of her testimony came when she described finding Jared's 2-year-old daughter Bexley still inside the car. Bexley one of the two children Breidigan shared with his second wife, Kirsten. Janelle described talking to Bexley.

She was shaking. She was like panting as if she's been crying. She was telling us that her dad is hurt on the ground, along those lines, and asking if the police was going to help her daddy.

One of the biggest moments came when prosecutors called Jared's widow, Kirsten Breidigan.

Yes, Andrea, when she took the stand, she was immediately emotional.

Are you the widow of the deceased victim in this case, Jared Breidigan?

I am.

Where are you originally from?

Um, I was born in California but raised most of my life in the Seattle, Washington area.

Yeah, and we, we actually interviewed Kirsten here on the podcast. Now here she is on the stand. Prosecutors spent a lot of time asking her about that custody battle.

Kirsten described that co-parenting relationship between between yourself and Jared and Shana and Fernandez-Saldana as pretty terrible. She said there had been repeated disputes involving the twins.

It was very tense. Uh, you could just, just feel the tension.

And Kirsten testified that after she learned Jared had been shot and killed, she pointed investigators toward two people. And who were those individuals?

Mario Fernandez and Shana Gardner.

Why was she so sure that this was Jared's ex and her new husband?

Kirsten said that as far as she knew, the only people who had an ongoing conflict with him were Shana and Fernando Saldana.

The defense kept its cross pretty brief.

Well, very brief. The defense questioned Kirsten on the custody battle and how active it really was at the time of Jared's murder. They also got Kirsten to acknowledge that despite all the tension, She wasn't aware of Shanna or Mario ever directly threatening Jared.

Okay, Carol. And this trial is just getting started. We will be following it. Thank you for bringing us Roundup this week.

Well, thanks for having me.

For our final story this week, we want to take a closer look at something we mentioned earlier that played a big role in the Luigi Mangione case— ghost guns. When Mangione was arrested, police found a partially assembled 3D-printed pistol in his backpack that he used to shoot shoot CEO Brian Thompson.

We allege he then took out a 9mm 3D-printed ghost gun equipped with a 3D-printed suppressor and shot him once in the back and once in the leg.

We don't often hear about 3D-printed guns in our Dateline cases. So what exactly is a ghost gun, and how do they affect investigations? Here to help us understand is Derek Pleasance, a retired special agent from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Welcome to the podcast, Derek.

Hey, yeah, happy to be here.

Uh, Derek, what are ghost guns? Just explain it to all of us who have heard about them but maybe don't know exactly what they are.

Sure. Now, a ghost gun is a colloquial term for a privately manufactured firearm that doesn't have the ability to be effectively traced by law enforcement, hence the term being a ghost gun.

Okay, so They are not produced by a licensed manufacturer, which is something that law enforcement wants, obviously, right? Because there's a record of it. There's a serial number. You know, there's a way to trace a gun if it's purchased properly.

Correct. Correct. So the term we use is crime gun intelligence. Firearms are a tool that are used by the criminal element in the course of their business. It is also one of their key weaknesses. So through crime gun intelligence, we're able to trace a firearm. From its point of manufacture to its entry into commerce where it's actually sold. And it's critical. When you have a firearm that doesn't have a serial number on it, it isn't able to be effectively traced in the traditional method.

And so even though law enforcement obviously would prefer that everyone have a serial number and properly purchase their firearms, people are still allowed to have these ghost guns?

Correct. So the reality is American citizens under the Second Amendment are allowed to build their own firearm for their personal use, and they don't have a requirement to mark it with a serial number.

Okay, so my 7-year-old son is obsessed with 3D printers. He thinks it's really cool. He has all these little toys. But 3D printers are how people are making these ghost guns, right?

Not entirely. Um, most of these firearms that are referred to as ghost guns are technically privately manufactured firearms. I haven't seen any detailed evidence on this Mangione case. However, I have seen some photos that are purported to be the weapon that was used. It appears to be a privately manufactured firearm built from a kit with additional components.

So some of the parts of Mangione's gun were 3D printed, is what I understand.

I haven't seen the weapon in question definitively, but the photos that I have seen indicate that it is— the lower receiver, the firearm portion of it, is a polymer And it appears to be consistent in appearance with other privately manufactured firearms. They are 3D printed at some point in time in their manufacturing process.

How easy is it to build one of these guns?

They're not particularly difficult. You need to have some basic tools and drill bits, a vise. But if you have basic skills and know how to use hand tools and you have some patience, you can build a privately manufactured firearm.

How hard is it for police to investigate a ghost gun that has no serial number? I mean, it's, it's so tricky.

It can be functionally impossible, to put it bluntly. It can be functionally impossible. The investigators have to be able to find and link that human contact trail of how that firearm moved from hand to hand and ended up used in that crime.

Even though the gun that Mangione used to kill Brian Thompson did not have a serial number, investigators were able to match the shell casings found at the crime scene to his gun. So a ghost gun, it sounds entirely anonymous, but it's really not.

No.

Yeah, that's correct. So it's a tool. It's a tool today that we can't effectively trace without extra effort. However, it is still a tool that expels a projectile by means of an explosive So that's gonna leave tool marks. And what happens then, especially on a semi-automatic pistol where it ejects the cartridge, those markings are unique to the firearm that produces it. So if we can recover fired cartridge casings from the scene and we can recover the weapon, we can physically link those two items to the crime scene and to the weapon that was recovered.

In Mangione's case, a silencer was also allegedly used in the killing. You don't hear about too many cases with silencers. You think of, you know, the mob, mob or something like contract killings. How do they— silencers come in to these, these crimes?

Yes, so the use of a silencer in a violent crime is exceptionally rare. It, it is very, very rare to actually see that happen. However, a silencer is in itself considered a firearm by the United States government. The National Firearms Act currently requires that a silencer be registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer registered. And if you use an unregistered silencer in a crime of violence, you do expose yourself to increased punishments, increased charges. In fact, if you use a silencer or NFA weapon in a crime of violence that results in death, your potential exposure is up to life without parole.

We should say, Derek, that while any federal charges against Mangione relating to a silencer have been dismissed, He still faces state firearm charges that he has pleaded not guilty to. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your knowledge on this topic that we just don't hear too much about, but you've shed a lot of light on it.

Thank you for having me on.

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Don't forget to check out the latest season of the Webby Award-winning podcast Dateline: Missing in America. Josh Mankiewicz investigates 6 new stories. The first 4 episodes are out now wherever you get your podcasts. And to get early access to new episodes and listen ad-free, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, Dennis Murphy is back, and he's bringing us the latest in an intriguing case everyone is talking about. When a California woman received threatening messages, all signs pointed to her husband's former fiancée. Fiancée. But a trail of emails and Craigslist ads eventually led investigators in a different and disturbing direction.

Diabolical is something evil. It's something that, that the devil might do.

Watch Diabolical Friday at 10/9c on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, and Keani Reed. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Groth and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Charmian Ling. Production and fact-checking help by Yana Johnson. Veronica Maseca is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Kuhl is senior executive producer of Dateline.

Thanks very much. See ya.