Transcript of Lisa Kudrow Returns Again

Hi, my name is Lisa Kudrow, and I feel still really good about being Conan O'Brien's friend.

Is this a day-to-day thing with you?

Still, every day.

After?

I ask, I take a walk, and then I go, wait, how do you feel about being Conan O'Brien's friend?

Hey there, welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, joined by, uh, well, no Matt Gourley right now. He's still out on paternity leave. Yeah, it's been 6 years now. He's running this child, uh, Just joined the Army. Good to have you here, David Hoffman.

Great to be here.

And, and Sona Obsession, of course, as always. You were late today.

Yes.

We just taped an interview that you weren't here for. What happened? Was a little bit of a snafu?

There was a little bit of snafu.

What happened there?

It wasn't in my calendar. So if it's not, I'm like, you know, if it's not there, I don't know it's happening.

Is this a physical thing you write in? Physical calendar?

What do you mean?

Like, I have a calendar and I write in it with my, like, a pen.

Yeah, it's got like, you know, a fireman with no shirt on, you know?

Oh, like a calendar.

That's the kind of calendar I picture you having. You probably like a sexy guy calendar.

Well, it's a digital one, but then there's other calendars that get sent that do have it on there, and I didn't pay attention to those.

There was a show about male dancers that you were obsessed with.

They weren't dancers.

Oh, they were gigolos.

They were gigolos.

You were obsessed with gigolos. Did you have a gigolo calendar back in the day? I did have a gigolo calendar. every month. And see, this is why I asked you. I picture you having like a gigolo calendar or a shirtless fireman calendar or now a heated rivalry calendar.

Yes. Yeah, baby.

Okay.

And then the problem is you get so distracted by the hunks that you don't write things down every time you go, oh, I'll write down, I've got to be in there for that interview for the podcast. And then you look up and it's one of the. The shirtless hunks from heated rivalry. And you. ba ba ba ba, and then you forget and you just write blither, blather, bluther.

Yeah.

Or I just drool all over it.

And you draw butts on the calendar.

I draw— oh my God, I draw butts. But maybe, maybe that's my system for putting things in my calendar. Yeah.

Two butts means I got to get into the podcast. Yeah. Three butts means I've got to go see my, my orthopedic surgeon.

Yes.

It's a—

it's my butt, butt code.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the butt code for my calendar. Look, but then also today—

And then you use different things. There's some butts, there's some penises.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

6 butts and 2 penises is Mikey and Charlie need to get their shots.

Yeah.

This is her system. The ancient Incas used knotted string instead of recorded language, and it worked fine. Sona uses a series of butts and dicks.

Yes.

And in a certain order. And I mean, you're— when you published your version of King Lear, it was fantastic.

People are going to look at my calendars thousands of years from now.

Yes. They're like—

And they're going to be relics of butts and penises. And then people are going to worship the culture of the penis.

Yeah. And realize that it exactly explains the solar system and the movements of the sun.

Yes. Yeah. I think so. I think it's a very special system. Anyway, so I went to a workout class this morning.

Anyway, aside from my ancient Incan or Aztec calendar of butts and dicks.

Yeah.

Onward.

Yes.

So butts and dicks calendar. Then I went, I went to work out this morning and I was driving somewhere and then I got a text from Blay, which is one of the scary texts to get when you work. He's like, where are you? What's your ETA? And I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to be somewhere right now. And then I called and I found out. But I look like—

you look like you went to the gym.

Yes. Look at me. Look at my hair.

I think you look great. What's the problem?

Shut up.

No, no, no.

I mean, thank you. No, I feel like I'm really wishing you didn't have so many subscribers on YouTube right now.

Okay, so here's the thing. I want to know what your workout is, because in the whole time I've known you, you've never said to me, I'm off to the gym for my workout.

Yes.

You've never done that.

I don't.

So what do you— what do you do? What is a workout?

Today was the first workout I went to.

That's—

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

This is gold. I'm a prosecutor who just happened to ask a question and you said, well, when I purchased the murder weapon and committed the murder, I thought today would be the day that I would go to the workout. So today was your first day? Where?

Yes.

Where?

I did a spin class at SoulCycle in Pasadena. Shout out. Give me— no, don't give me some— I'm probably not going to go back. I was really—

You are not going back. Really?

I suffered throughout the entire thing.

Okay. So also, I picture you like yelling back at any instructor if they say, okay, now ladies, let's go. No, we're going up a hill now. You're like, fuck this. I'm not going up a hill.

I was saying it under my breath. I was like, shut up, bitch. Shut up, bitch. As she was talking and telling you not to yell at the instructor.

Yeah, I'll cut a bitch.

Yeah, I will. But I wanted to. And the whole time I was like, stupid. Why am I doing this? I want to watch TV. What am I doing? Why am I doing it? Like, I was taught— I had an internal monolog that was so not what you should have when you're in a workout class. I hated every second of it.

Did you have— while you're working out, is there a big container of Red Vines in front of you that you're eating while you're—

Yeah, like 6 calories out, like 12 calories in.

Someone's feeding it to her.

Yeah.

Yeah. You bring in a assistant to feed you Red Vines. Well, I'm glad you're here. And, yeah, I'm sorry.

I missed the interview.

Don't be sorry. I mean, yeah, you would have had fun.

Yeah, but I know I liked who you interviewed, and so I'm bummed.

I'm sure I'll interview Barack and Michelle Obama again soon.

It was Cher.

Yeah. And Cher. It was Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, and Cher.

Oh, my God.

Oh, and the survivors of the band Queen. But you know what? We'll do it. You'll come to the—

I got John Deacon included, and he doesn't even do anything with the band anymore.

Everyone was here. It was really fun. But you wouldn't have loved it.

Yeah, I took your seat.

Yeah. Oh, and this great hummus place sent in some food. But next time that happens, we'll—

Everyone's laughing it up. The hummus place, huh, guys? You like that one? I hate everybody in this room.

This is hilarious. When I introduce this guest, it just always cracks me up because we've been friends literally forever. And she is one of my absolute favorite people in the entire universe. She stars as Valerie Cherish in season 3 of the hilarious HBO series, The Comeback, which people— people are so psyched for this.

So excited?

So psyched for it. She is one of my closest friends. I adore her, and I love when she comes on the podcast. Lisa Kudrow, welcome. I mean, we've known each other forever.

Yeah.

And got so close. We started together, as everyone knows, in improv in '86. And it's still a day-to-day thing with you. I never know. I never know. Am I still good with— There have been whole years where I've been out. But at the moment, I'm in, which is fine. And we'll see how it goes.

That's not true. It's the other way around.

Yeah, I know. What?

Where did that come from?

Look, in the 2000s, I just turned on you. No, we were just— It's funny because, I mean, you came in here, and you started being really funny, and we're just laughing, and we hadn't even, like, turned on the microphones yet. And it just always feels strange when I say, "Hey, my guest tonight is Lisa Kudrow," because we had dinner—

Last week.

Yeah. With my wife, Liza, and you, and Michel could not be there because he refuses to dine with me now.

Right.

And he was out of town. I know he was out of town. We're just trying to start trouble.

No, but yeah. Anyway.

But yeah, we had a blast. And so it's so funny when it's formalized this way a little bit. And it used to be worse. Not worse because you were always great. But when I would say when I had a band and it was on TV and they'd be like, all right, here she comes, Lisa. And you'd come out and you'd get, you know, the dress and I'm bowing to you and then getting behind my seat. And I would just flash back to you and I in a DuPars diner in the late '80s going, here's a funny idea for a skit.

Yeah.

Well, we both got to get back to our day jobs. Oh, yeah. So it's—

Your day job was writing.

Yeah. At least I had a decent— Yeah. Yeah. And you were slinging hash.

At the headache clinic.

At the headache clinic, which was giving— Why were you slinging hash at a headache clinic?

I don't know.

You said slinging hash. Yeah. I wanted to be a good improviser.

Yeah, that was good. That was good. Now it's a very funny scene.

An ass-slinging headache clinic.

Exactly. Yeah, I'm delighted that you're here. People get very excited when you come. Huge fans here. And so, Paula Davis, who we were just talking about before the mics came on, who's been with me forever, who's our booker, she is vibrating. For, I would say, a month now, talking to me about The Comeback and the new season of The Comeback.

That's what she was telling me. She's doing a rewatch of season 1.

But she's not the only one. I have so many friends that are telling me, "The Comeback!" And because they know that you and I go way back, people are asking me questions about it. I don't know anything.

A lot of people from my life couldn't watch Seasons 1 and 2. They couldn't handle it.

It was tough.

And I think probably for you, even though you're too supportive to say it, but my husband hasn't seen them. Do you know that?

Really? I didn't know that.

Michel has not seen all of season 1 or all of season 2. But I think that's sweet also.

I think that's really sweet. I watched both of them and thought it was brilliantly funny. But because I'm such good friends with you and care about you, It's hard. It's hard.

I just don't even know what anyone is talking about with that. I can't.

I'll tell you specifically.

And it makes me nervous that something's wrong with my version of reality because you're not the only one.

Right.

Because they're so humiliated for her.

Well, you play it, and everyone here is— You play it so brilliantly. Close to the bone. And for me anyway, there was the character of the writer, Paulie G., who was just so mean. And that actor did such a great job, especially in season 1. He was so good at being a type of writer I know. And it made me— But, you know, not supporting you at all, you know, making— just wearing away your confidence, and so much anger, and bringing so many of his own issues to that situation that— because, I don't know, I've been in that world. It was hard. It was hard. Just like, I told you I wanted to fight him at one point. I said, "I don't want to meet him because I think I want to hit him with a 2x4." Right. And the poor guy, he's a lovely guy and a terrific actor, but he needs a beating because—

But listen, I mean, because we had a writers' room the first season, and every one of them knew that guy. So, we weren't making him up. And the thing is, is that to me, it was really obvious that this guy thought he was having a promising career, We hear that he was a Simpsons writer, he won an Emmy, and now he has this show, and then the network tells him, "No, it has to be this. Oh, and by the way, just to hedge our bets, there's a companion reality show." And that would be enraging to any showrunner. And he is particularly asshole-ish, right? And has whatever feelings he has about— her, because she is annoying. She is sort of phony. And what do you do with that? And just shut up. Right?

Right.

Right. And I've been— that's been a solid 5 minutes of me monologuing, by the way. But to me, it was really obvious, like, what he's pissed off about. And okay.

No, no, that's fair. I just—

And he's punishing her. But did she seem punished?

Well, she's—

Sona says no.

She's blissfully almost—

I wouldn't say blissfully. I would say Valerie Cherish is—

Valiantly unaware.

Valiantly unaware. But also, I think one of the reasons she's that way is she's not completely oblivious. She knows that she's hanging by a thread in this business. She knows that— And you play it so well, excruciatingly optimistic in a way that's so forced because you know that this isn't all going your way. And you're so thirsty. You really want to win that Emmy. You really want— And what's amazing to me is that it really does capture something you see. Out here. Yeah, you see it out here all the time, is the big forced smile. I can't tell you how many times I pass a billboard and I see a big smiling face of someone who's saying, "It's all great!" Right? And I know that person's miserable. I know they are. I've met them. I know, you know, and I see those faces all over the place because so many people aren't happy in themselves. You know what I mean? And so the smile gets bigger! And it— that's what you see a lot of. And I think Valerie Cherish is the best character, in my opinion, that captures something that exists out here. And I do have a lot of empathy for her, but I also think she's not Peter Sellers as Clouseau.

She's not someone who's oblivious. Things are— fires are— She knows that, "Oh, here's the paparazzi." They're not shooting her. They're shooting someone she used to work with. She's trying to get to her. They're stepping on her feet. She knows that it's not going her way, and she's pushing herself through the crowd.

Yeah. I just realized I just might be really mean. 'Cause that just made me laugh.

Well, it's funny. No, it is.

Bad for her.

I mean—

Bad for her. She thinks it is, but it hasn't. Like, yeah, I don't—

But it's this, it's a, I don't know, it's a really fun—

To me, what she's doing is like, "That's okay." Like, that's her mantra is—

It's okay.

It's okay. It's okay. That's what it takes. You know? Like, it doesn't matter. And then, 'cause first, I was just making fun of her. Season 1, to me, yes, I am mean, and I was making fun of her. That. And after we were done, I had a friend, and she's smart, this woman. Her name's Moraid. She's really great. And she was saying, "Oh, but no." And she's Irish. So I don't know, maybe you know her.

Of course.

Yeah.

I see her at the meetings.

The community?

Once we reached for the same potato at the bowl. Yeah.

Oh my God.

It happens.

Yeah.

There's just a bowl of taters there. There was a fight.

But she said, "No, isn't she wonderful? She's just, you know, she's so— You can't keep her down. There's no one more resilient. No, she's wonderful. She's the strongest person I think I've ever seen." And I just went, "Huh?" And then realized, yeah, because I don't feel bad playing her. I don't feel decimated when I'm playing her. Because I am rejecting the rejection or the insult and turning it into something that she needs, that I need.

Well, she doesn't say no ever. She says, if they say, "Okay, now you've gotta—" For this, I'm making this up, but if in the new season they said, "Okay, to promote this next project, you need to be covered in duct tape, and we're gonna put bunny ears on you, and you have to hop down Hollywood Boulevard," you'd be like, "All right, well, okay." I mean, you'd do it. This is what we're doing. I guess this is what the kids want to see now. I don't get it. But you would do it in 120-degree heat and probably pass out. But she is intrepid. She's brave. I don't know. And just—

She wants what she wants. And whether you think that's a worthwhile goal is another issue. But yeah, she doesn't give up. And there's something— I guess we like that. So here's something I like. I don't know. All of a sudden, like, Lindsey Vonn flashed in my head. You know, like, everyone likes a come— No, but because I was thinking, why is she doing this? You know, and then like, well, everyone likes a comeback, and everyone likes those. That's why I went, oh, I don't know. It seems dangerous.

And then— This just happened over the weekend. I don't know when this comes out, but Lindsey Vonn crashed, and I think she fractured her leg. Yes. Yeah. But there is the reality to— You know, she was really brave to make that attempt. But you're right, there's a high level of— there's a slim chance this will work out. But that's what makes a comeback so incredible, the odds against it.

And you can't have a comeback or do that if you're not just being optimistic and hopeful. Hopeful against all odds, against like, let's— like, presented right in front of your face. I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. We do this every 10 years. Yes.

This is what I wanted to talk about. This is the thing. This is what I love. What's so unique about this show is I think the first one is—

2004 or '05? 2004. And— Came out in '05.

Yeah. And you were kind of— I mean, I think it's 2 years or something before Keeping Up with the Kardashians. It's like— This is— You were doing a satire of something that hadn't, I don't think, really formed yet. Then you come back 10 years later, and now, which then commented on that moment. And I think few people would have the patience or the nerve to say, "These come out once every 10 years." But it's really cool because now, I have not seen a second of the third season, but— The idea that you can now drop in again a decade later, it's very unusual. It is, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. But I'm so— It's so great that we didn't get picked up that first season because it gets to be about something. Right.

Were you surprised when it didn't get picked up?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was surprised.

Yeah. Why were you surprised? Just because it was really good.

Thanks.

And you think, well, this will now get picked up. Yeah. Of course, I've been wrong about these things before. Yeah. I've had my own experiences. But—

Wait, what do you mean?

I don't know. But I think—

You've only had an easy time.

You're right.

You and your privilege. I know.

Never a bump in the road. What's nice about the world we live in now is shows used to go away all the time. Yeah. But now there's this world where shows can not get picked up, but they, they don't go away. And then you can have this audience build. And people who— and if you make— I mean, I've seen it with so many, like Party Down's an example of a show that I don't think was getting a lot of attention, but you can check in on it years and years later, and it's almost like The Wire. The, you know, there are these comedy shows that, okay, didn't see it, didn't support it. You check in much later on. I wasn't aware of Party Down. And then you see it and you go, "Oh, they've really— they've made a nice little Swiss watch here." And it's just as good now as it would've been if I had tuned in the day it came out. And definitely The Comeback had that, where it was building and building. And you probably experienced a lot of people when you're out at the supermarket. Oh, yeah.

The supermarket is where all the fans of The Comeback are. They are. They are.

They're there. You're there in the produce lane, and you're there like, "What about those melons?" And you're like, "I don't know. Hey, The Comeback!" But I go to a lot of supermarkets. But— You must have had that experience where you're hearing from people, "I love that." And so you didn't hear that necessarily from the people that made the show or broadcast the show, but you knew, "I'm hearing from way too many people." Well, even when it was—

when we were on, we heard David Bowie got in touch with HBO 'cause he was gonna be on tour. He didn't wanna miss anything, so send him. Wow. Whatever. I don't— 2005 DVDs or whatever it is. Look, I'm looking like, I don't know. We don't remember.

Then you find out the other shows David Bowie wanted. I didn't get the latest Fear Factor where they eat shit. Can you have that one, please? You're like, David. But to—

and then we felt like, oh, okay. Yeah, that's right. HBO. That's all they need to hear, probably. And, you know, we had a lot of bad reviews because people didn't understand what they were seeing. Right. And then by the time halfway through, there were revised reviews like retractions.

And, and which is pretty, which is pretty rare.

Yeah, pretty rare. So we've— and also our ratings, we were doing as well, if not better than Entourage when its first season was just the year before and went, "All right, so great." And who else has shows that you don't— you've not seen this before, you don't really understand, and then you get to know what it is and embrace it and it's great? HBO, except they kept telling us, "Yeah, we're not— HBO's not HBO anymore." So I don't know. It's really got to— I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. And then it turns out, I only found out a couple years ago, there was one guy at HBO that I don't know if I ever even met him, in charge, who was just like, "We're not gonna pick that up, right?" Yeah. Yeah. So, well, but I have to say, yes, it was a surprise that we didn't get picked up, but I didn't feel bad. Right. And I was in shock that I didn't feel bad, 'cause I thought, well, look, this is about the best I can do, and I think we did it about the best that it could be done.

So I've got nothing to feel bad about. It's not my mistake. Yeah. So I don't know. I didn't feel bad.

Well, that's— I'm glad. Yeah. You should have felt a little bad. Oh, no.

I'm just sorry. I felt bad later. Yeah. When—

As long as you felt bad at some point. No, I did. Good.

Oh no, don't worry. Good. Oh, I felt bad. No, no, like gut-wrenching. Yes, yeah. It just feels like a hole in my— In your soul. Inside, in my soul, yeah. Good. And my soul's inside.

That's necessary for good work. It is?

Yeah. Oh, okay.

Yeah, you'll have it one day, Sona. What if, I don't know.

Will I? But here's the thing, it wasn't because it was canceled. It was because someone else, it was Bill Maher talking about something and jokes that don't land because like one joke and it was famous, I don't remember. Someone making fun of someone who's marginalized or, you know, like a victim or— and he was saying, look, you want to make fun of white men, you can make fun of white men all you want, okay? Because they've got the power. Yeah. But don't make fun of that person or that thing. And I went, women are still, you know, you can't make fun of women in that way. Like, you can't. Oh, no. They're too easily recognized as victims if they're— And I went, "No." I never thought of it that way.

That's such an idiot. I mean, because so much great comedy. I mean, Lucille Ball, Tina Fey, so many great— on and on and on have made fun of themselves as women. And it's brilliant.

Yes, but Val, this wasn't the same. This was a man being cruel to her. And I thought, "No, it's a writer giving a hard time to an actress." Like, why is that a big shock and horror? I mean, what do you think actors, and especially actresses, have put up with forever? And haven't. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, you proved me wrong. I take it back. I'll never say it again. I get it.

No, I get it.

I get what she's saying.

Give us your input here, Sona. I just think— I actually think it's part of the reason why she was so just kind of like, "Okay," just taking it, is 'cause she's used to it. I mean, that's how it's always been for her.

Right. It's not gonna change. Exactly. So, you've gotta— Here are the boundaries. And so you just work within them, around them, you know, that's all. And I mean, look, I don't know if it's because I've— I don't know if it's— I never felt like, "Oh, I'm a woman, and so, you know, I don't get to." I don't know. I mean, on some level, yes. Especially with this, it just didn't occur to me. It's like, this isn't gender-specific ambition or hopes and dreams. So it doesn't matter. It didn't occur to me that it would be an issue at all. And I think it kind of was, that it was a woman. But—

Now, when you come back 10 years later and you do the second season, did you feel more assured that, "I know, I really know who this character is. I know there's a lot of fans. People are excited for us to return." Did it feel different? Kind of.

I mean, it's a little scarier. Because then there's expectations. And what Michael Patrick King and I knew was, it's 10 years later, she's 10 years older, and it's going to be different. It has to be different. And then I just thought it was great that we had her win the Emmy for a performance she couldn't even appreciate in herself because she was stuck on how tired she looked in the scene. And I liked that a lot for her. And then, of course, the huge thing is that she leaves the Emmys that you hosted. Thank you.

And, um—

I got paid. Oh, you did? I told them you didn't have to get paid.

That's—

It was— That makes me mad. Yeah.

It was validated parking. That was my payment. Yeah. I'm kidding. But, um— I needed to say, "I'm kidding." It's disturbing when you'll say something like, yeah, and I hope something horrible happens to Conan. I'm kidding. That I'm kidding chills me more. Oh, okay.

Because it could be real. It could be true.

Uh, I'm explaining in the joke. So I was really— to yourself— I was really sad about The character of Mickey. Yes! The actor who plays your—

Not the actor. Mickey. Robert Michael Morris.

Yeah.

And he was such a— so terrific. And he completely nailed this kind of person that we all know, especially in this business. Someone who's been with you a long time, is in your corner, and it's just— all you were getting was undiluted support from him. But, and of course, he's not perfect, but I just, I was very obviously sad that he had passed, and that character is just kind of note perfect, I think.

Yes, he is. And also biting his tongue. Like, we had so many takes, he was sort of a little bit of a reality check sometimes. If she's saying something and you're wondering, like, That's stupid, right? And then you like switch over to Mickey, who's looking confused, or, yeah, why'd she say that? Yeah, yeah, he was great. Yeah. And that was a horrible loss. I mean, I, I couldn't even think about doing more. Yeah, yeah. For a really long time, because we'd been talking about it and, you know, knew that it would— it might be possible, you know, to do more, but No, it took me a really long time to get over Mickey. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, he was great. And he wasn't— He was sick when we were shooting that season. And when our first day, we had to walk back and forth a lot somewhere, I don't know. And he had to sit down. He said, "I don't know if I can do this." And Michael Patrick King, you know, who knew him from college. That was his college acting teacher. And he came over and he just said, "You can do it.

Of course you can do it." And I said, "Yeah, whatever you need." And he got, over the course of shooting, he got better and better and better. And his doctors said, "What are you doing?" 'Cause everything's good. Like, the disease is not progressing. Yeah. Whoa. We don't— what are you doing? So I don't— it's that stuff. I love hearing stories about that happening, which—

'Cause we don't understand it, but it makes 100%— We believe it. I believe there have been times where I haven't felt well And then I've gone out and done a show for a really big audience at a theater or something. And I feel great afterwards. And you think, okay, this is adrenaline, but it's also community. I got my people around me. I'm getting all this positivity. You're getting this bath that is very you know, life-saving, right? It's, it's— so I totally understand that.

Yeah, I, I— right. I mean, we didn't look— if COVID taught us anything, well, it taught us a lot of things, but to me, one of them was, boy, our immune systems are— everyone's is different. And wow, it seems like what activates it and what, you know, what helps it along and how much of wellness is immune system and then other things, and we don't know. To me, it just meant, oh, that's right, we don't know most everything about our bodies and our universe and everything. We don't know a lot.

Well, I get most of it, but— Okay. I'm sorry, I just do.

You understand that stuff?

Yeah, I do. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, completely.

Can you explain anything about the immune system?

I don't think you would understand it. Oh, okay, okay. Okay? I'm sorry. All right. But you know what I mean? It's just the level of— Do I know what you mean? Yeah, I'm just thinking on like, I'm thinking in like the 9th dimension, you know? So there's only so much I can do for you people. That's true. You know what's interesting? That's true. I just, I'm sorry. I'm a little bit honest and then, whoa, it's all this.

By the way, I mean, I think Conan is so smart that he could explain physics. No, not physics.

Physics I don't understand. You don't? No, I really don't. Did you ever take physics? No, I mean, I did in high school, but I, And I, you know, when they start saying, "Oh, time is a—" Relative. Well, of course I understand that. I'm the one who explained it to Einstein. Oh, okay. But no, there's so much I don't understand that it's—

If I believed that. Oh, okay. Very humbling. So that was you. Yeah.

Went back in time and he was like, "Who is this man? What are you doing in my patent office? Hey, E=mc², buddy, and grow out a mustache." Oh my God. And then I zip out the mustache.

That was Conan, you guys. Wow. Yeah, your accent was spot on.

Well, that was Einstein. Can I hear it again?

I'm trying to work in the patent office.

There we go, okay.

And I think, who's this Irish lady? I'm a dude, man. You look like Jane Lynch. Shut up. He knew Jane Lynch.

Time is relative. Yeah. He just tried to explain it to you.

I don't even know. So. Here's an interesting thing about you is that you've experienced this real, uh, this real victory in this space with the comeback, but you also got to experience that failure. Oh no, no, that's where you were going.

That would be great. Yes. Yes.

You, I don't know. I don't know what you were doing before the comeback. It just didn't pop, whatever it was. No, my point being that you, with Friends, you could arguably say you got to be in the last giant communal TV, you know, mega-hit that no one at the time realized, "This is maybe the last of these where everyone's gonna watch this show, and it's a cultural touchstone." And— This is where we all are, watching these people go through this life. That was such a phenomenon. And very few people get to be in the nose cone of that rocket. And you've had both these— both very different experiences. But the success you're having now is the success of this new way of experiencing TV, as opposed to— the massive, you know, it's Cheers-level, Happy Days, massive. And I'm just curious, like, you've experienced them both, and I don't think a lot of people have. That's gotta be unusual to have both of those.

Okay.

That's all. You don't need to comment.

I don't know. Is it like a cult hit? Because that's what I feel like.

But also, it's a different— it's a very— It's a very— it's a great piece of work that is— that fits this new medium really well, in my opinion, which is— Okay.

I'm just trying to understand. Because what do you mean time's relative? Yeah. All right.

Yeah. See, a guy's on a train, and he's passing a station. Now, what if someone on the station throws an orange?

See, that's what I'm hearing simultaneously while you're talking about the other thing, because—

time fold. Because you're existing.

Yeah, you're on both folds at the same time. Oh, right. Okay. And you get what I'm saying. And hi, I'm Lisa. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm also at that point in my life now too. I'm traveling. I'm existing on this plane. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. In 2026, but I'm also right now in, uh, 1986 and I'm buying tons of Lisa Kudrow stock. And now I'm rich.

Um, it was exciting when I went public.

I made a killing.

You know, some of you started buying Lisa when Friends hit the air, but not me. I was there in the olden days when we were in a weird basement doing improv. Right. For absolutely nobody. I think that one night we had one person in there. It was a rat. They applauded, and they had good suggestions. But they were the same suggestions. Virulent disease. Rat, you said that already.

You were so mad at me. It felt like there were days we were doing this and you were just looking at me like, why are we doing this?

Like, why did you make this show? I was. We were performing in a theater that was at the bottom of the Scientology Center and no one would come in. And there was one person, I think one night there was one or two people in. A theater that— And we did our show anyway. We were like, "We're gonna— The real pros perform even when there's 1 or 2 people. Let's go!" And then afterwards, I was just embittered.

Oh!

Yeah, you were mad.

That's rough, though. And she was my, you know, so honest. Elise is always super honest with me, and I just— She would— When I would be down, or if someone was doing performances that were hacky, I would put my head in my hands like this, and she'd say, "They can see you." I see you. You're being a dick. And I'm like, oh, right. You're right. You're right. I forgot.

That's subtle compared to what you were doing. You know what you were doing.

What were you—

Show them what you were actually doing.

I don't know. I can't— Oh, pulling my hair out.

Yeah.

You know that bit? That funny bit when he's like, in so much pain that he's pulling his hair out. And so it's a little more than just this. Yeah. Okay.

I'm saying I—

I'm saying you're a terrible person, basically, I guess. Wow. That's not nice. Yeah. That's not a nice thing for a guest host to do.

I wore my heart on my sleeve when it came to comedy. And that was not always a good thing. And I needed to just be—

I just felt like it's good for us to protect some.

You just need to put a sheet over me. You just need to put a sheet over me when someone went up to do a nerd character and had— tape around the middle of their glasses, was going, "Mm, I've been working on a new formula, and I like computers." And Lisa just needed to have— you need to have a tarp that they put over a barbecue outdoors. You just need to have one that you put over me so that they couldn't see that I wanted to die.

Wait, who's going? Oh, you're going up? Okay. Give me a second.

Conan, we're going to put the tarp on now. Then you just see a quivering tarp. With steam coming off of it.

With fists coming out of it.

Okay, listen, what is this, beat up Conan day? Sona's not gonna stand for that.

Yeah, I am, I am.

Oh, okay. You're gonna encourage it. No, I am, I'm gonna encourage it.

I'm gonna laugh and I'm gonna enjoy it.

Yeah, good.

But to me, it's not beating up on you. It's just you had a highly attuned antenna for subpar comedy. And that's the whole thing about class is everyone's learning. What their clown is. Don't you hate that expression? Find your clown. Yeah. I mean, yeah, anyway.

Who's your clown?

That's another groundling thing. Teachers are like, you know, you just gotta find your clown. And I get really mad.

The one thing I still can't do to this day is improv warmup exercises. And there have been, I didn't like them back in the '80s. And I just wanted to go out there and do the thing. And I didn't wanna play these games backstage to have us all get in the mood or something. Right, me neither, not in the mood. And then. Yeah. And it's these games like, blip, blop, bloop. I look at you and go, blip. And you look at me and go, bloop. And blip, blop, bloop. And you're always in an alley somewhere in Hollywood and it smells like urine, and you're going. And I would say, can we just not do this? I will pay you. I will pay you if we don't have to do this and be like, you have to do it, man. It's really good.

We're going to do. We had to do that recently.

We did. A few years ago. We did a show for charity and backstage, again, in an alley in Culver City, I think. And someone said, okay, everybody, let's warm up. Let's play Skiddle-dee-daddle-dee.

I know. Skiddle-dee-doodle-doo. Skiddle-dee-dee. Skiddle-dee-daddle-dee.

What is that really? And I don't know what it is.

You know? No, I didn't know what the thing was. They were even telling me the theme.

I didn't know either. And I said—

But it was an involved thing. But first you had to, like, Skidoo-pa-dee. Just like, no!

And I was begging. I was saying, can I just not do this? Yeah, why did you do it?

No, I think we did it a little bit and then just went, all right. Okay. Moving on. Is it time? I think it's time. I think, I don't know that we have time for this.

I made the sound of a siren. I said, oh, I think someone, I think someone got hurt somewhere. We better go inside. Oh, the cops are coming. We better clear out. Was that a gunshot? Yeah. Kapow! That's not a gun, Conan. That's a terrible gun. Now get back to your blub. I said blipped. You gotta say blub. Anyway, that's just me. I wasn't built for that.

No, I didn't like it either. I almost quit because I didn't like what I saw in the first improv class where it's like, throw a space ball and be angry. And they're just like, grrr. I just went, that's what I have to do? Maybe I'm not, this isn't for me.

You know what's interesting? I've always thought, And this is something that's true of legitimate acting, which is not what I do, but the line between it being great and you absolutely humiliating yourself is so razor thin. And a lot of acting classes kind of— you need to just put that stuff all aside and strip yourself of all your— and I think of your defenses. And then sob or roll around on the floor or pretend you're a jelly bean or all that kind of stuff. And I thought, yeah, did you go, mm, like good jelly bean or?

That was you being a jelly bean? Yeah, I was like, mm, yeah, yum, yum.

I love jelly beans. I go, okay, good jelly bean. Well, that's pretty good.

Yeah. Yeah. He's a good jelly bean.

But I don't know, I always thought, oh no, all I am is if I weigh 190 pounds, 185 of it our defense mechanisms, and then some hair, and maybe some teeth. So I can't— I'm not gonna get rid of all that stuff. I can't do it. I mean, I have my hats off to people that can do it. I have a lot of respect for actors. But you still use so much improv.

You learned something. No. Both of you did learn a lot, I'm guessing, unless you already were just natural improvisers.

I think both of us brought some of our own way we think to it. And then, yes, you learn great tools.

Tools about listening. Listening, talking, responding, and then just— and committing. And that was the first thing I learned watching him. He was really committed to throwing a ball. And you didn't look— No, no, no. But there was no ball. He was pretending there was a ball, and it looked like he was throwing a ball, and he looked a little angry, but not over the top. No, you did it. And that's what acting is, which is why you can act. I let you say all that. 'Cause I felt like you really wanted to. But no, you can. You can act. You can act because you know how to listen and respond.

Isn't that all it is? I guess. I don't know what it is. I don't either. Yeah.

I'm not gonna study it.

Whatever you're doing, keep doing it. All right. That's what I'll tell you.

Oh! You. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know. I mean, maybe you have questions for Lisa, because I know Lisa so well. We're done. Yeah. But I know Lisa so well that these are interesting interviews for me always, because sometimes I think, "Well, we just talked about that at dinner." So then I think, "Oh, I want to make sure that the people listening get some stuff that isn't just me," because I know Lisa so well. Does that make sense? Yeah, I totally get it.

I think that I do have a lot of questions about you guys starting off together in terms of, are you both kind of the same people as you were back then, you think?

Yes. You are. I am. You don't think you are? I think I'm very much the same. I will tell you, we both had not great cars.

So you have better cars now?

Yours—

yours— that was— no, I'm just talking about, like, we got to start somewhere that people can understand.

What was my car? How do you remember?

You had a Datsun Z. Yeah. And it was fun. A 280Z? You had a 280Z.

That's a nice car. No, it was a fine car.

I'm just saying it was— It was a great— It wasn't always clean. Sports car.

And then get a little— Oh, no, my cars were never clean and I smoked. So, yeah, no. You did? Yeah. What? I don't know. I can't— Of course I did. For 20 years. Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay. Pack a day. No, Lisa! Well, what? I did it just part-time, poorly.

And I used to say you could do better at smoking. You could— I would get mad. You'd be smoking, but not enough. And I'd be like, come on! Are you in or you're out? Are you in or you're out?

In or out?

You gotta be a 3-pack-a-day smoker, Lisa. Did you ever smoke? No. Did you? No. If I smoked, I would look— I was very aware that if I smoked, I would look like a kid who got into a pack of cigarettes. And like the teacher came by and went, put those down, Augie.

I'm picturing you next to Lisa though with those candy cigarettes.

Yeah, yeah. Puffing little powdered sugar.

Oh, and I started smoking the cigarettes I was at Harvard. Oh, that's— we were there at the same time, 'cause you were there in the summer. We were there at the same time.

And I used to work on The Lampoon in the summers there. So I never missed a summer there. So I was there.

And I was there one summer, and that's when I started smoking, 'cause those fucking bugs, those flying water bugs as big as your fist.

As big as your fist! What does that have to do with you needing to smoke? Who says there's too many bugs, I need to smoke! Why? 'Cause it terrified me.

It stressed me out so much. And I didn't tell you the part that made it so bad is I'm sleeping and I hear a jet has flown into my room. Oh God. Okay. 'Cause it's these old crappy buildings next to the river and there's no screens on 'em, but there's no air conditioning because, you know, it's the East Coast. And well, that's how it felt.

Big fat East Coast.

East Coast in the '80s. And it was an old, charming dorm building. And so the windows were open. And I went, "What?" Like something mechanical flew into the room. It was the loudest. And there was a giant water flying cockroach, water bug this big. Don't— you're looking like, "I don't know what she's talking about." No, no, no.

I'm not.

The whole time I was there, I didn't see a bug.

No, there can be some big bugs, but it never made me think, "I need a smoke." Okay.

And then it was on my— and it was just like on my wall. Wall. So now it's this big on my wall and I went, oh, okay. And I grabbed my shoe, dumbass, throwing a tennis shoe. That's way too slow. Yep. As I throw it, it's flying toward my head and, and then I couldn't sleep and, you know, there were cigarettes somewhere and I just started smoking and it calmed me down because nicotine is wonderful. Oh, it's really good stuff. It's good stuff. Never had it. Yeah. And then another one flew in, and they became pets. There was no getting them out, and there was no choice.

You got them little toys.

Figured out their favorite food.

You had them for 14 years. You know what Robert Smigel said to me once? He looked at me when I was being insane about something and tightly wound, and he said, "You're the only person I know who would be healthier if he smoked. That smoking and the breathing and the nicotine, it would extend your— He said, "Conan, it would extend your life. It's bad for everyone else, but you—" And I think about that sometimes, 'cause Robert's been right about a lot of things. And now I think at my age, if I started now, I'm like, "Come on, how much damage could I do?" No, but this has nicotine in it, so— Oh, nicotine gum?

Yeah. Look, I didn't even take one, but I have it.

This is turning into an ad for starting to smoke, which I don't want it to be, although I'm a little intrigued.

Well, I don't— Wait, but I do want to say something because you said, "Are you different?" And here's— You are a little different. How? I mean, we should be, shouldn't we? Yeah. Don't you think? Sure. Okay. But you had told, like, when we met, we were talking—

Different from when I was in 1986. Well, yeah.

I mean, I should hope so. I don't think you're as tightly wound.

No, I'm not.

Okay, good. He was worse than this. Okay.

No, she's absolutely right.

I will say, since I'm working for you, you have gotten a lot more chill. Yeah. Yeah, I see that too.

But he told me that he would be so tightly wound, like something I can't— either I don't remember or I just don't want to say. No, because you were telling me something happened at college and it upset you, and you sat and you quietly just like took apart a chair. Yeah. Really? Just like quietly? Yeah. Patiently? Yeah. With rage? Wow. Yeah.

Something in the comedy realm hadn't gone my way, and I went back to my room, and there was a very sturdy wooden chair that they have at Harvard that has the Harvard insignia on it. And I quietly was pulling out all of the pieces of the chair. Oh, boy. Yeah. I had that in me. There's a guy in here. Who scares me, but—

Is that scary? Because maybe this is scary. You told me that story, and I went, "Yeah." Right. Because you can't actually find one in front of anybody.

No, no, I would never turn that on anyone. The person I beat up on mostly is me. And writers who need a physical beating every now and then.

Sure.

Well—

No, I— yeah, but I mean, uh, I think we've— of course we both change. I think having kids changes you too. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I love— and I said this recently on someone else's podcast— but so much of being young is being narcissistic. So it's necessary. You kind of have to be a narcissist when you're young, and it's got to be all about you, and your problems have to be the biggest thing in the world because you are going through life, and it's— the stakes are big. And then once my daughter showed up, and then later my son, I remember instantly knowing, "Oh yeah, I don't count anymore. I'm not— I get it." And liking it. Like, it's about them. I've got to be here for them. And just even thinking about it, I'm— much calmer. So, I, yeah, needed to be having kids when I was 15.

Oh, that's what you were built for. Yeah, exactly. All of us.

"All right, kids, settle down!" "Dad, why do you have acne?" "Shut up!" "I gotta go to high school now." "Well, not yet, but next year." "You guys settle down!" "I'm gonna go watch Star Trek reruns." Well, I think we're all thrilled anytime you drop Thanks. And I'm so excited for the new season of The Comeback, which is a jewel. It's just so beautifully made, and really looking forward to it. And I love you. You're one of my favorite people in the history of the world. Oh, come on.

Seriously. Yeah, you are mine too.

You just did a "me too." Yeah. Okay. I mean, come on. I think you gushed enough. Yeah, it wasn't enough.

Thank you for your thank you.

Mail it.

Oh, shit. Here comes a bird with it. If you'd give me your address, I would.

Yay, let's play! Gotta warm up for improv. Okay, Lisa Kudrow, peace out, Tupac. Okay, I'm going to break into this programming now with an urgent, urgent news update. David Hopping just saw the Backstreet Boys at the Sphere. And whatever you're doing, if you're driving right now, I want you to pull over to the side of the road. If you're listening, cooking dinner, dinner, I mean, just order, order out because this is just too important. David, what was this experience like? Backstreet Boys, the Sphere. Paint the picture because America wants to know. Okay. Hi, America. Um, it was America just hung up.

It's just one person named America.

Yeah, it's America Ferrara. She does not want to hear this story.

Um, it was on my birthday. We drove to Vegas, got there with no traffic. We got there under 4 hours, which— that's nice. Oh, when people love that part of the story.

Um, and then whenever you hear about seeing an iconic band at the Sphere, you just paint the picture. People's favorite story is about the commute.

Okay, I love that you I consider the Backstreet Boys iconic. This is nice.

Please, you didn't see my— I have put little quotes around it. Okay. No, come on. They're a big deal.

I love the Backstreet Boys.

I'm not going to shit on the Backstreet Boys.

I'm not going to. I just didn't know they were your cup of tea.

I'm just saying this is a huge band, whether or not I know all their songs. I know a few of them. Let's Get to the Place. Do It Before It's Not Done Doing, which goes.

Yeah.

Do It for It's Not Done. Hey, hey, do it. She's All That and a Corn Sandwich. They have some great songs that are part of the American experience. Yeah, but anyway, just get to the good part.

We got to the Sphere. Good.

Then we stopped and we got canned peaches. Sorry. Go ahead.

I got a drink and a souvenir cup that has all their faces on it. Then we walked. We had standing on the floor. So have you been to the Sphere?

I haven't been to the Sphere yet.

Because like, Sohn and I get excited about like the little things in life. Yeah. Walking into this, seeing the huge screen was everything. And then everyone stuck to— you were supposed to wear all white to the concert. Why? Everyone, because it's like their Millennium album cover. They're all wearing white.

Oh, I thought they were all saving themselves for marriage, which I admire. Like a virginal thing. Yeah, they're virginal. Yeah. Yeah. They're all like pushing 60. They're like, when the time comes, I want it to be special. And now for my next hit, got to get going to the place where we go. That's a big one.

Everyone stuck to the theme, though. Everyone wore white. That's great. And then they came out, and I've never seen anything like this. Like, it was like space theme. So there's like a spaceship above you. And it's like everyone's like looking up. I missed them even coming out on the stage because the visuals were just so cool.

So I'm getting the sense they didn't need to be there.

They did. Their music was everything.

Well, they could play the music and then you could look at your spaceships and then, you know, whatever. They could have anybody get up there wearing a white shirt.

No, they needed to be there. Eduardo's going soon.

Are you going to the Backstreet Boys? No, no, no. I'm going to catch No Doubt. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Taking my wife and my niece. Yes, my granddaughter. Yeah.

I don't know if they've ever had a comedy show though. You should try to be like the first person.

You know how I prefer to watch No Doubt? When they premiere on my show in New York. Oh, what a flex. In 1993. What a flex. Mic drop! So the Sphere. Yeah. I want to go to— here's what I want to do. I want to go to the Sphere when they're featuring something that in no way is enhanced or benefited by the Sphere. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I want to go when all they're doing is someone's playing a banjo and they're rebroadcasting Walter Cronkite's last episode of the news, and it's just a regular news program where at the end he's— and they just run that a couple of times and someone plays a banjo and it's all around you on the sphere. No special effects. It's just Walter Cronkite saying, it's been an honor and a pleasure, and, uh, you know, take care and, uh, be well. Good night.

You know, or something that doesn't even use use the screen at all. It's like two people having a guest lecture on like AI, and they're not even talking.

No, no, you use the screen because at one point the two people giving a lecture mention, um, I'll be talking about this at a separate conference which is on March 3rd. And just the date March 3rd comes up in tiny font, in small font, on one part of the Sphere. Those are the things I want to go see at the Sphere. I want my My dream is to misuse the Sphere. Let me be very clear. I will go and do something at the Sphere that completely misuses that amazing technology.

Do a PowerPoint presentation on like a timeshare in Vegas. Yeah.

And then you're just like holding a thing. And it's just one little part. It's one little square that could— You can't even see it. People know. Here's the thing. You can kind of see it. That's important to me. You can kind of see it. And I go on and on. Oh my God. Uh, yeah, that's how I want to use the Sphere. But anyway, so you had a good time?

I had a great time. It was— yeah. And then at the end, I was actually texting Sona after because it's just a bunch of drunk Backstreet Boys fans all walking in some hallways singing their songs together. Yeah.

And if you look closely, some of the Backstreet Boys are in with them. Hey, wait a minute, isn't that JUBJUB? What's— what are their names?

Uh, well, there's Ned. There's Nick. There's Nick. There's Nick.

I don't know. Is there a Nick? Yeah. Okay. I want to just make that up. Is everyone okay? Everyone's healthy? Everyone's healthy.

Yeah, they're all there. Okay. It's like the New Kids on the Block also are in Vegas. They're all there.

Oh, I know they're there. I'm trying to pick a date to go see them.

You need to. Do those guys ever join forces, you know? Yeah. Or is it like Marvel and DC where that's not allowed? No, they've, they've done—

they've toured together before.

Oh, they all get together? Yeah. Oh, I just thought I had this cool idea. Oh no.

You thought you—

And can they then join up with another group like, you know, Menudo? Or can you ever get another group that joins them? So those two united, Backstreet Boys and New Kids on the Block. But then who else could join them?

We need an NSYNC reunion. Oh, NSYNC.

I mean, it could be 98 Degrees.

It could be O-Town. What if you got them all together? I mean, all together. And then, um, didn't let them perform. Wait, what do they do?

They are giving the PowerPoint presentation.

No, you, you get them all together backstage and then you lock the door, and then I go out and I show a, I show a little timeshare, uh, lecture. It's projected on one small part and they have to watch it and they can't get out. They can't get out.

The ultimate bait and switch. I love it. You'll be murdered by a lot of—

hey, a lot of people have tried. A lot of people have tried. Old women are taking a swing at me every day. Uh, all right, there's my pitch sphere. Call me. Peace out. Tupac.

Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonam Avcessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced Produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Leão. Theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Erin Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Battista, and Brit Con. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get 3 free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com/Conan. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever Your fine podcasts are downloaded.