Transcript of EP10 - One Year Later

Welcome back to Beths Dead. This is episode 10, the final installment.

Oh, wow.

This is a little bit different than the others because many, many months have passed. Yes. Has a year passed?

Has a year passed?

I don't think quite that much, but yeah, close to it.

It's been a while. It's been a while since we had our big call, and we're back to... We've been working on this project since then and putting it all together, and now we're back to talk about our thoughts on the whole thing.

Yeah, and mine have gone through journey over this year because there was the ride after, and then we've all relistened to all nine episodes a couple of times. And every time I go on the ride, I have My feelings change through it because truly, I think we all left that call. Well, I left that call feeling like, I think I said I wanted to give him a hug. I believed every word he said. I want what's best for him. And I think, Monica, we even choked about we wanted to be like, Don't worry. All is forget it. Forget about it. It's no big deal. But then you listen back to it and it was a big deal. It was a big deal.

Yeah, I have the exact same thing. And then when I get to that thing, I can't help but to believe every single word he says. But then I'm also like, Am I a fool? And one thing, I'm going to ask you this, actually. At the end of that episode, the music that I made and put under it, I made right after we had talked to him. So I was in that feeling, right? And every time I hear it, I'm like, Oh, this It almost feels like it's guiding too much.

But then I'm like... Guiding how?

The emotion. It's guiding the audience to feel for the guy, too, because it feels sentimental and not spooky for once, and And I'm like, Oh, is that the wrong thing? But I'm like, Oh, that's how I felt. It's this weird thing, because then when I listened to earlier episodes, I'm like, Fuck that guy.

I think that's really interesting about the music, but that's just true to our journey with it. It was spooky and creepy, and we were weirded out. And by the end, there were sweet feelings. I mean, obviously, I have a different perspective because I didn't go through it the way you guys did. But yeah, when I was listening back, I was like, Yeah, this is a wild story. He's really being so manipulative. But the same thing happened to me when I got to the end and we were listening to him. I was like, God, it's hard to be a person. I believe him, and I still do. I still do.

Yeah, me too. I do think both things are true. And I also want to say, through this whole thing, we're laughing a lot. That's how we get through life At the time this happened, it was terrifying. I sometimes am like, do we really express how scary that time was. And I think you heard bits of it as we were making it and we were like, are we putting this out there and making this guy want to come murder us? Or we had all these concerns putting it out. I just want to say it's really interesting because I had a parasocial relationship with his dad. It actually took me a while after recording that. I would feel like it would pop in my mind, and I would think of the villain I had created. And then I'd be like, Wait, wait, it wasn't him. It's almost like my brain couldn't... It took a while to catch up to the reality.

To untangle it even. It was impossible to.

And even to think about the dad now without having negative feelings. Now I really do, and I feel guilty that I even attributed all of this to this completely oblivious person who's just living their life. But I had to undo my own parasocial relationship with a person through all of this. And that person loomed large. It wasn't just those two weeks, and then the detective called, and it was over. We have been so paranoid about posting stuff or, I don't know, leaving any footprint. So this podcast, I have felt so much safer in life, even though I don't even think I realized what I was carrying. Eight years in, I feel like this weight has been lifted, and we could never have guessed where the podcast went.

That was It was such a fun. It was so fun to take it into a real documentary-style situation where we really just did not know where it was going to go.

Yeah, and I have to thank you, Monica. Because we had talked about doing one or two episodes about this back in the day, and then turning it into what it is without you feeling like a safe person who's helping guide this, I don't think there's a world where we would have ever reached out to him. No. So this sense of closure I have, and also it feels empowering to know the truth. It's also such a good lesson about just not believing your instincts. Find out what the truth is, because in this case, we were so wrong. The detective was wrong. Our private investigator was wrong.

There were other people involved that were People smarter than us.

People smarter than us. Yeah. I just feel like, even for the dad, even though I really hope he never knows about this, I feel like it's good for us to know the truth for him. One of the scary things that I don't know if we touched on and we couldn't really, and now it being wrapped up, some things we honored the anonymity of the dad, which I think is definitely the right thing to do.

But in trying to make contact, it seemed almost impossible to get to the dad, which that always really freaked me out. In this day and age, that seemed so wild to me.

And that he was public-facing.

Yeah. He seemed so almost internet savvy or something that it seemed impossible to get to him. And thank God we didn't.

Well, and now we know that maybe he's not internet savvy.

Yeah, maybe it's the complete opposite.

Yeah, we thought he was Internet savvy because of what he did.

Yes, totally. We had written the story and it made it scarier. I mean, there were so many things like that about the dad. They got scarier when you attributed it to this thing he didn't actually do. I also want to say there are details about him before we found out who it really was that we have withheld. There's more to the emails, if you can believe it. There was more to the threats, if you can believe it, there was more to the threats, if you can believe it, that we weren't sharing out of keeping- Everybody safe, I think. Everybody safe. Yeah, I think. But I also feel like this gave me so much closure. I think it gave you so much closure. And it also was a really cool process for us. I feel like, again, we can't get into too much detail, but there were multiple times in recording this podcast over two years where actions were going to be taken, certain people were going to be pulled in. At the time, it was maybe frustrating that there was a lag or waiting on people's schedules, but it was such a good lesson in trusting the creative process, because had those things happened, it would have been It was a bit disastrous.

I think we can say that there was a plan to basically confront the dad. And since it was so hard to get to him, Monica, you were going to confront him face to face.

Yeah, me and somebody else. We were going to go. We were just going to go. It was someone who knows the doc space well. So we were instructed, like, that's how you do it. You just show up, which I guess made since we couldn't really get in touch with them any other way. And then that didn't end up working out with that person. So then we pivoted.

Thank God. Thank God. But it was frustrating because it was taking so long and it's like, Oh, I just want to get this out. And then that's happened multiple times. This show had to take the time it took. Even thinking about him and his sobriety.

Exactly.

I'm wondering if, I mean, just the timing aligned and he felt like he was in a place where he could speak with us.

And he wanted to. He felt like he was in a good place in recovery where he could give a real amends.

And you know a little bit more about that, I think, Monica. We didn't talk to him about this, but this was probably something he truly did want to make amends for, right? Because isn't that a big part of the process? This could be a looming thing for him that would be hard to shake.

Yeah. In recovery, obviously making amends is one of the steps, but there is is a caveat that sometimes you can't do it because it would cause more harm. So I'm sure he had to file this into that category. But it did sound like when we were able to talk to him that he had been hoping he could have this moment.

Yes.

This is random, but not really. I don't know if everyone's... I mean, we all have here, but I don't know if our listeners have already watched Unknown Number or Unknown Caller. I forget the exact title, but documentary on Netflix about a catfishing situation, wild ending. But one of the main things I took from that was one of the characters in that doc says, basically, catfishing is abuse catching up with technology. That's not exactly what he said, but he's talking about a Munchausen situation. But he's like, with technology, people's badness has evolved, and to use this tool for their mental illness. It's like it's another outlet for mental illness or anger. I don't know. I just found that to be really interesting. It applies here, I think, where he was clearly struggling. Yes. And this podcast technology, this parasocial relationship and the comment section and all of these things, allowed the mental illness to come out.

Yeah. In a way, I was like, it's almost like that he wasn't even aware. The technology led him down a path before us humans can catch up to it. I was so glad that it wasn't someone, and this was the version I had attributed to the dad, who I became convinced in doing this podcast like, Oh, this was calculated. Going back through to the very beginning, it was all planned. There was some end game. He was going to use Natasha and Anders to try to break up our marriage, all of these steps. And to find out it just happened, and I truly believe him, as he said, didn't just seem like he could be friends with us. We reminded him of actual friends he had lost touch with, I think, in his addiction. I also find it beautiful that we wanted to get all these answers, and he was like, I don't remember.

I don't have any.

And it ultimately, it's like it doesn't actually matter. There's something freeing. It's so freeing.

The other thing I want to point out, you bringing up unknown collar. Number?

I don't know what it is.

And there's some other recent catfish documentaries. There's the one about the football player, remember Mantao, I think is that how he pronounced his name.

Mantao.

Yeah, that one. And even the Tegan and Sara doc, if anyone's seen that, where they I don't ever necessarily find exactly who it is in that one, but the other ones they do. In these ones, the perpetrator is interviewed, and they don't have remorse. What's interesting is, I think we might be in an outlier situation, actually, where this is not the normal way that this ends. He truly seems like he has remorse. As I'm saying that, I'm like, I hope we're not going to get a knock on the door or something. There's still a little bit of that. I like both of your faces. That makes me feel better. But do you know what I mean? But it does seem like a bit of an outlier. This was a positive ending for us, where most of these other stories, they're not really positive. It's like, Well, that sucks. I don't know.

But I do think it speaks to the greater Internet culture also in general and comment culture, where people do... They're just behind this sense of anonymity, and they're horrible. That are horrible to other people because it's so easy to forget that they're people. To me, that's more of what happened to him. He really wasn't... I mean, in some ways, he was very much thinking of you as people because you were acting as friends. But there's a separation that happens where you're also just not real, and in some ways you belong to him. I think we can all do that in these parasocial relationships or these relationships with podcasters and stuff. There can be a sense of entitlement. I've noticed it on my end, too. If I'm listening to something and someone says something that I wouldn't like if they were my friends, I'm like, Why'd they do that? And it's like, I don't even know them. Yeah. Yeah.

I've had that as well. And the interesting thing is, it's also any which way the wind blows. It could just be a day I'm grumpy and I happen to be hearing these people or Andy, you and I have been in an argument about something, and I'm hearing a podcaster and I'm going, that person, I bet I'm projecting my own stuff onto them, or if it's if it's something I don't like about me or if it's something I don't like about someone in my life or attention I'm having in my life. It's so easy. And that's exactly what this guy was doing. He was working through, as he said, he was having suicidal ideation. He was working through stuff in these relationships with me from the safety of not having to be vulnerable. Yes. And in a weird way, I think that there's something beautiful about that. Not with me, obviously.

I know what you mean, though.

If there are spaces on the Internet, I mean, I don't know. I know Reddit is a cesspool and everyone likes to... People are just... If you're on the puppies reddit, it's really nice. But if there were a space like that for people to, I mean, I guess, second life or these games or something where people can cause display their feelings.

Well, they're saying a lot of people are already starting to do that with some of the AI chat bots, which is weird because you're not even doing it with a person, but you are forming a relationship. But yeah, that gets into a whole other weird territory.

Well, that does because those bots are trained to say what the person wants to hear. I mean, it's like they're improvisers. They're yes anding stuff, which can be really dangerous when it's mental health stuff, as we've seen. So it's not as authentic as a random podcaster who thinks that you're someone you're not.

You do sound a little pro catfish people right now.

No, I'm just saying... One question we didn't ask him is, did this help him or did it fuck him up more?

It seemed like he was spiraling out so much. I think in some ways, we were a part of his rock bottom in some way.

It sounded like the timing all.

Yes.

Not helpful.

I have a question that I thought when I was listening back. When he said he started it at... He sent in the letter, the Beth question, the Beth email, the email to be put on air. He said he had a friend who had experienced that, and he was like, I I guess, wondering what your advice would be on it. Yeah. And so instead of saying, This happened to my friend, what do you think? He just became first person. Yeah. And I was like, Huh, if we ended it there, is that wrong?

How do you mean?

The problem is he kept up the conversation, right? And then created this whole thing and lured you in and whatever. But is it wrong on its own?

Right. To seek out... I mean, that's something I think, and you obviously did this in sync, got questions. And we talked about this then, actually, because sync launched- During that time. During this time. And I was nervous for you, naturally. I'm very protective of you. And I feel like we ultimately thought, look, if it's helping someone else to maybe hear this, what's the harm? As long as you're not then doing what I But he also... It's interesting because he had started it with Natasha and Anders.

He was playing more, yeah, more than one character. But what you say is almost like it's the joke, my friend was wondering if it's okay to... Exactly. Right? Yeah. And is that okay to provide some cover for yourself? Exactly. And in this particular situation where you're reaching out to a public podcast, it's like, yeah, sure, maybe. You don't want to identify yourself. Yeah, I can understand that. But he He abused the system.

Of course. No, yeah. And then it became everything we just heard. But on its own, it's just interesting to think like, Oh, I might have done that. And then you can... I can't really see how you go that far down the line, but I don't know. It's just like baby steps. It starts happening. Yes.

Completely. I lied once. There was like, right after I graduated college, I was out for a couple more years, and I was trying to contact big record producers and like, Could I find an internship and all this stuff. We're living in New York. And I reached out to maybe the manager of one of my favorite, favorite producers. And I said I was a college student working on a paper, and could I interview him? And then six months later, I got a response. It's like, Yeah, sure. Here's his email. Send him questions. I'm like, Oh, shit. Now I got to send questions. And do I pretend that I'm a college student? Writing a paper. And I did just send questions, and I was like, What a missed opportunity because I'd lied in the first place, I didn't keep going with it.

Well, also, I just don't know where that- What the end game was. Yeah, you didn't have a- Yeah, but it was like- You just wanted to make contact, which I get.

I wanted to make contact.

I was like, Maybe I can make contact this way.

Yes. Yeah.

Gosh, that was like such a different version of you.

I mean, look, it's also savvy and smart, especially in these creative industries where it It's just impossible to make contact with people. You do have... I mean, think about all the acting resumes, the special skills section is just all lies.

Like journaling, unicycle, fluent Italian. Andy, you know what's interesting about that? I feel like we talked about it when you did that. I was like, It's truly harmless because the thing is people are much more likely to respond to a college student, which you had been.

Hey, I went to college.

Do you know what I mean? But being like, Hey, I'm three years out of college. I'm working at a glass store.

I did end up actually working with him, though, which is odd.

Not through that, though. No, no. This is like 20 years later.

And he never found out. No, not comfortable to share that story with him.

Yeah, interesting. But also that's funny because it's like, Well, yeah, he's probably going to be more receptive to hearing from a college student in the same way that our guy is probably like, well, they're probably more likely to answer this if I'm the person.

From a young woman, yes. I mean, I know without a doubt, I never expected to get this closure out of it. In fact, I was very nervous. We were opening a whole other can of worms. There were multiple times throughout this that we were like, do we pull the plug on this? This is our life. We were very excited about it, and we felt really bad, like we had already taken up so much of your time, which is valuable, but just straight up scared. Yes. You know?

And you- Understandably. Me, too. Me, too. At some point, I was like, Oh, God.

Well, you also, when we were talking about you going to find him, a cross country flight situation, that really freaked me out because I was like, this person, you don't know how volatile they are. I don't know.

All we know about this person is bad stuff. So that was getting scary for me. I was like, God, are we I'm really going to do this? I am not equipped to do this. I have no skills, but here we are.

Yeah, I was like, damn, she's brave.

I am glad we didn't have to do that. Well, for a million reasons why. But if I had knocked on the door and what happened with us happened, it would have probably still felt the same. I probably still would have felt like, maybe even more so in some ways, like this is really a real person in front me. I mean, that's really why we really felt like we needed to see him. That was a big part of one of the final episodes where it was like, oh, maybe we can't see him. It was like, no, we have to.

Yes. And it's funny because the two days before Andy, and we used to call you Psychic Andy, you had this nagging feeling like, what if we got the wrong guy?

Oh, I was just so worried about it.

You were joking about it being his wife and stuff, which would have been crazy. But the two days leading up to that had just been, and obviously when it happened, it happened very fast, and we just made the call to do it. But we knew we were putting the emails out there and we really actually might make contact with this person. And I was just going through the list, some of which we couldn't share, of all of the reasons why it was this guy. And so the shock was so real for me. And then, I also, reflecting, back when this happened, I knew that there was an adult son, and just lightly looking into things, that would have made me so much more scared in a way if it were this adult son who didn't have something. I was comforted by this person has a full life. They have a lot to lose. It was the idea of the incel in the basement who is obsessed, and that was a scarier proposition. Then it's funny that it was such a relief once we spoke to the person. It's just another like, humans are complicated, and you can't just make this broad stroke brush judgment of someone, and I was guilty of that with the dad and the son at different It's such a good lesson for me.

We're all complicated people. Our behavior at different times, depending on what we're going through, is going to look very different. You were very vocal about leading with compassion through this whole thing, which at times was super annoying.

I know.

I know. I'm sorry. But I'm really glad for it. That's the truth. You must approach things through a compassionate lens, I think so.

The compassion, obviously, is helpful for the recipient, but it's for you because it releases your anger and your fear. It's just like seeing another person and understanding that life is complicated and people are complicated. I think it is better for your own brain and not even for the other person, really.

We've been dealing with a person who is going through a complicated time with addiction. It's very easy to get blinded by their current behavior. I don't know. When you take a moment, and Andy and I are constantly doing this, almost every time that we talk about this situation, We have to remind ourselves, we can see why they are here, and our heart goes out to them. It's not easy. We know they don't want to be in this situation, and they can't control it. And it makes it easier.

And it's not personal. That's the other thing that is so hard with addiction, because the wreckage that it causes feels extremely personal and often is directed in a very personal way. And so to have some awareness that it's really not about me at all. By the way, it doesn't mean you have to stick around for it, and in fact, you shouldn't. But it will just bring you peace. Yes.

Yes.

I totally agree.

You know, it's not about you. That's one of the four agreements, you know? Oh. And I don't really know the other ones. I'm not like a huge... I think it's helpful. It's It's a self-help thing everyone can dip their toe into once in a while. But the It's not about you is so helpful in life. And honestly, this situation, it wasn't about me. Like, He maybe was… I don't even know if he was obsessed with me. Was he?

I did think he was. One thing I don't think I told you guys that just popped in my head. Once we found out it was him, we did have the honeymoon phase of like, Oh, such closure and everything. I spent an afternoon one day, I don't know if it was a week, two weeks later, digging on the internet looking for a court documentation about why was he arrested and what were his charges. Oh, wow. I paid money to request documents of some government site. I really went into it and I'm using variations of his name and everything. I was like, I do need to know, but is this guy a bad guy? But I never found anything compelling. But I did have that instinct still. I still couldn't shake it completely.

But can you now?

No, not completely. But I'm 90% there. I do really wish the best for him. That's another thing I wanted to speak to. We promised him that we would alter his voice, and it is still very compelling, but I don't know if it's as compelling if you can hear the human in it, which it's undeniable. That's all I want to say. And I think to all three of us, it was undeniable when we heard him speak.

Yeah, it was so tricky, I think, for us, Andy, me and you, when we first got on, and it was immediately this human, and he was nice to us, and we were trying very hard on purpose to keep it tight and asking the questions. And when I listened back, I was like, Oh, my My God, we're so cold. I felt like we were being so cold towards him, which is fine.

I felt like you guys had to be that way because we also didn't know where it was going to go. You guys had me, the main victim, as a fly on the wall watching. And so I think you didn't want to do what your instinct was and be like, Oh, my God, it's all fine. You know, whatever. We're sorry. We're sorry. Honestly, we're sorry. On behalf of me, I think that was like, I think that you really had no choice. Also, we were worked up ahead of time because we were like, This guy is internet savvy.

Oh, yeah. We assumed he said he can't.

I've never used FaceTime. We were like, oh, he's trying to get out of it.

But really, he was just in his car. Oh, yeah. He was in his car when he did this.

Even when he turned on the camera, I believe it was facing the other way. I was like, of course, it's facing the other way. You're going to pretend you can't figure out how to turn it around. We were just calling bullshit on everything.

There was also a world where the camera was going to turn around, and it was like his dick.

No. I did. Okay. I did not. I actually think you're being serious right now, which is what's blowing my I mean, after all of this, what if that was...

It wasn't. But there's like... Oh my God. That's possible.

And you had that thought. Are you having that thought now or had you had that thought back then? Honest.

I had had that thought back then.

Oh, my God. I had never.

Last of my worries was a dick shot. I'm sorry to see.

I feel bad that even I hope he doesn't hear any of this, but I'm like, he didn't do He did that.

He did.

Yeah. So let's be clear. It's not his crazy brain. Monica goes, I have to be honest, we were expecting to see your dad's dick.

In some ways, you took it way further than he ever did, and there's mountains of emails he sent.

Well, but you don't know. Well, you just don't know. You're right.

You're right. Of course, you don't know.

You don't know. That's a good point, I guess. But also, it was so cinematic. Obviously, this is not on video, and that definitely would never, ever be shown, seeing him and stuff. But it was so movie-s to be waiting for the phone him to pick up, and then he does, and then it's facing the other way.

In a truck or car or something. Yes.

Like, the anticipation was so intense.

Yeah.

You can't script it.

You can't.

I know. And then it wasn't him. And then he was really lovely. I do really hope he's doing well. I sent one more email to him after. Okay. That was just like, Very short, but just I really appreciate you talking to us, and I really hope you got some closure from it, too. I hope you are doing well and continue to do well. Did he respond?

I think so. We sent the same Maybe we all sent it. We all sent it, maybe, or we separately sent same emails. Because right after, I was like...

Elizabeth's been having an emotional affair with him ever since then. Oh my God, more emails?

What if there was another entire cycle of emails back and forth.

Well, I've been in contact, too. Yeah.

Listen, I do feel like- Season two. I feel like this is so insane because this is how I felt about Beth. But I'm like, I would like to know how he's doing in five years. I do feel this like I was very nervous after that because when asked about his sobriety, he was very honest and said it's been hard, but he's three years in, and it sounds like he's getting his feet on the ground. And that's a very tender time. Yes. And my hope is that us reaching out and talking to him in our follow-up email would make him go, Okay, I have closure. That's behind me. I can now focus on my life and not have those thoughts swirling. But I was also very worried that this was in a kick-up. If he were in some self-esteem spiral or- I know.

I'm worried about this as well.

I'd hate for this to have sent him, like, backwards. Yes.

I hope he is doing good out there because we are. Have you guys ever listened to, I think it was called The mystery Show? It was a podcast a long, long time ago, and it was just a few... It was short, a few, some episodes. And it was this girl hosting it who basically people would write in like little... They're like little mysteries. This person found someone's coin, and it was ingrained.

Oh, I do remember that. Yes.

It was such a beautiful podcast. It was so cool. Oh, that's cool. And in some ways, this whole journey reminded me of that. It was like, yeah, there's just like little... Everyone has these little life mysteries. Like, who was that? What happened with that person? What is this? And we got to figure it out.

Yeah. It's so satisfying.

It is. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the thing is there's the satisfaction, and then there's this Kind of beautiful feeling of like, I have that like, heart-swell feeling of humanity and like, life is beautiful type feeling, which I was not expecting to be part of this at all.

And we might not have had at... I mean, honestly, chances are that's not where this was going to end. Honestly. Yes. Even had we confronted whoever it turned out to be, whether it was the dad who he thought it was or this guy, there are so many other ways this could have ended. That's why it is hopeful, because it was a happy ending.

It was a really nice human person on the other end, treating us like human and us doing the same after all of this two-way parasocial stuff going on, it ended up being all these humans in a room, so to speak. And it is hopeful. It is hopeful that, especially just with the world, that Maybe if you can just get people in a room, it can be okay.

That's right. And also a good reminder, just speaking of the world, we are all a product of our circumstances. We are all where we are because of the specificity of our own lives and bringing compassion into that and remembering that is so important.

Yeah. I hope everyone enjoyed and got something from it. And hopefully, maybe we'll see you again soon for some mystery number two. Who knows?

Thank you, Monica. Yeah. Thank you both.

Thank you both.

Thank you both.

It was such a dream come true parasocially for me to work with you two. Again, that wild interweaving of that is another bizarre layer to all of this.

Yes. I'm just getting a feeling you're going to walk out here and text him like, We made it. They didn't figure it out.

Yeah.

He's some guy that you hired. Or it was me. Yeah. It was you the whole time. He's just some guy you hired.

Oh, my God. That just got me so scared. Yeah. No, this was a very special project for me, so I'm grateful to both of you.

Amazing.

All right.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Beth Studd is presented by Armchair Experts, Monica Padman, and nobody's listening, right? It is produced and edited by Andy Rosen, Elizabeth Lame, and Monica Padman. Additional engineering by Rob Hollis, music and sound by Andy Rosen.