Transcript of Luigi Mangione: The CEO shooter suspect and why the case has captivated social media | BBC Newscast

The 26 year old who is accused of murdering an American health care boss has appeared again in court in the United States.

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I don't know what your social media is like, but about 3 quarters of my feed is just pictures of Luigi Mangione, quite often in various states of undress. So we will ask, what is going on? What does this tell us about the American justice system and the bigger issues about health care in America? All on this episode of the BBC's daily news podcast, Newscast. Hello.

It's Adam in the Newscast studio. And a bit later on, we'll be talking about prisons with prison places for the number of prisoners that there are and there are going to be in the UK. But first of all, talking about criminal justice, we're gonna go over to the United States because this has been the talk of my social media feed. Luigi Mangione, the 26 year old male who has been charged with the murder of Brian Thompson, the CEO of that American health care company in Manhattan last week. And it's fair to say most of the chat on social media has not focused on the practicalities of the American legal system.

It's focused on, well, the physical appearance and the hobbies of Luigi Mangione himself. So what's actually going on with this, legal process, and what does this whole hoopla just tell us about the state of American justice and the state of American health care as well? Because that's a big part of the conversation too. Well, monitoring this story for us is the BBC's presenters in Washington DC, Katrina Perry. Hello, Katrina.

Hi, Adam. How are you?

Good. Thanks. And Sumi Sumiskanda. Hello, Sumi.

Hi, Adam. Great to be with you.

Thank you for for joining us on newscast today. Just before we we dive into the details and just what's been happening, I my social media, I would say my ex feed is 75% people posting about this story.

I too.

Is it domin is it dominating the the American news conversation to that extent?

Yes. It absolutely has been dominating the American news conversation. And, you know, it's interesting to note that especially on x on Twitter, the various threads of conversations from, the suspected shooter Luigi Mangione's, you know, social media profiles, combing through those, but also the conversation about the health care industry here in the US, and then just the the nature of this crime and how completely unusual and remarkable, this entire story has been. It it has dominated the conversation. And, you know, obviously, we here at the BBC are covering so many massive global news stories like Syria at the moment, and we're covering South Korea and so on and so forth.

But here in the US, it has captured people's attention.

Mhmm. And I'd say even beyond the news media, like, it's what people are talking about if you get into the back of a taxi or you're out with friends or whatever. Because as you say, it's just such an extraordinary combination of events, and there's so much information there. I mean, it's, you know, it's the the curse or the benefits of social media profiles, whichever way you want to look at it, that, we know or we think we know quite a lot about Luigi Mangione here, and people are going back and looking at things he did when he was in his fraternity. And, you know, it's the way he managed to dodge the legal authorities here for those couple of days and also being ultimately apprehended in a McDonald's.

Like, in another way, you know, it's just so American to be in a McDonald's restaurant, couple of states away from where you carried out, allegedly, this crime.

And then, you know, a patron of that McDonald's then tells the an employee and that, you know, it is almost plays out like a movie, those scenes that you've seen of if you see something, say something, and they pick up the phone and call the cops. And, yeah, it in so many ways is truly remarkable.

And then with with Luigi Mangione himself, I mean, I feel from looking at social media, the last thing is almost like he was he

was friends with me on social media because we've been able to see in such minute detail his education, his graduation from high school, the the rankings he gave to books and films on various apps. But then, I also then find myself asking how much

of that is actually true, how much of that is people speculating, making stuff up. What do we actually know for definite about him, Sumi?

Well, I mean, we know, obviously, from combing his social media sites that he was someone who had espoused various political views. So, you know, there was an effort in the beginning to say he's an anti corporate leftist, and then some of his follows on social media indicated that he might actually have more right wing political leanings. I think it's not entirely clear. He, like a normal 26 year old perhaps, has various views. And and I think that's what is most clear about all of the various things that we've seen from Luigi Mangione and also conversations

that

have been had with his friends. For example, the BBC has spoken to some of his friends who've said, look, he's just a normal guy. I mean, what we know about him is that he did seem to have grievances about the health care system. He had talked about those in relation to his mother and also had, according to his friend, who spoke to the BBC, a back injury. We don't know the extent of that injury or what tie that had to the action that he ended up, that he suspected of taking, of course, charged with taking.

And we should say his lawyer has been very clear. There's no evidence tying him and that gun to the crime in New York. Obviously, New York is trying to extradite him, to face charges, for murder, for the the killing of the UnitedHealthcare CEO. But what we seem to know about him is just so many pieces. It's pieces of somebody's life who lived online.

I mean, I think that's what's been really, interesting to see is how many threads of your life you leave behind online when you are engaged in Reddit threads and Goodreads, book reviews as you said, Adam, and conversations with various people. He's he's somehow completely online and also a bit of a mystery in a way.

And you contrast that to the victim, Brian Thompson

Yes.

The UnitedHealthcare CEO boss who was killed in Manhattan early in the morning on his way to a corporate meeting. We've kind of heard very little, actually, about him, and it has there has been this bigger conversation about health care in this country, the cost of it, how much you pay to health care providers in in health insurance, and then how much you actually get paid out from that to the point where UnitedHealthcare has had to erect security fencing around its headquarters and around some of its other properties because there's this kind of, I don't know, fear of protest or something else happening that, you know, it's kind of triggered this other conversation as well, hasn't it, about, like, how particularly the less well off in this country manage? Because there isn't that sort of safety net that there are, particularly in European countries where you have a universal health care system that people are cared for. There might be long waiting lists, but you'll eventually get seen, and it's just not the case here.

And specifically and specifically about a practice from health insurance companies to deny claims. And this is 1 that, you know, almost immediately after the crime, after Brian Thompson was gunned down on the streets of Manhattan, you saw a number of people. In fact, I think UnitedHealthcare had to take down their Facebook page because there were so many people writing in about how this insurance company had denied them claims. And it it is remarkable I heard a democrat lawmaker speaking about this the other day. He was saying, you know, it is a a tragedy what happened to Brian Thompson and a horrible crime, but that he was not surprised at the anger and the frustration that's being expressed by so many Americans to your point, Katrina, because of the way the health care industry works here, but also the way that insurance companies in particular are seen as preying on average Americans.

Yeah. And and challenge like, denying claims, as you say, challenging things through the court Yeah. At a point when people are at their most vulnerable because they're sick or their child is sick or whatever. You know, I mean, the number 1 cause of bankruptcy in this country is health bills. So if something very serious happens to you, it can really change your entire life situation.

And I think it's kind of feeding into a broader point that we saw writ large in the presidential election as well about kind of people not feeling that everyone's playing on the same pitch here and that there are these economic issues where people are really, really, really struggling. I think it kind of all feeds into a sense of just being hard done by as well.

And in terms of the the criminal justice process here, I mean, there's that clip from from Tuesday, I think it was, when Luigi Mangione was going into court and he's kinda turned around and shouted at the cameras and had a go at the police officers. Luigi. Woah. I've been completely out of touch and I insult Sumi, what what is actually just happening in the in the in the legal process right now?

Right. So he has been charged, and that hearing was in Pennsylvania. Remember, that's where he was apprehended at this McDonald's in in Altoona. And he, is facing charges in Pennsylvania for, possession of a firearm, for a fake ID that he had presented to police there, a few charges that he's facing there. But what's happening in New York is they are trying to procure, an extradition warrant to bring Luigi Mangione over to New York to face charges, for the the killing of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.

Now his lawyer is fighting those extradition charges. As I said earlier, his lawyer has said there's nothing relating his specific gun to the crime in New York. Police in New York believe differently. They think that they have the evidence to prove that Luigi Mangione did in fact kill Brian Thompson. But right now, it's basically as the the lawyers and the prosecutors, excuse me, have described it, is a bunch of loopholes that they're going through right now.

So it is you know, different states have different laws. And so what they're trying to do is the governor of New York has to sign this extradition warrant to bring Mungioni over to New York to face those charges. As of now, however, he's facing those lesser charges in Pennsylvania, and that is a legal process. That's that's basically the the wheels are turning. And it could take a few weeks for him to actually be extradited.

But from what we understand from the state of New York, they 100% intend to bring him to New York to face those charges.

And in the meantime, you've got the wild west of social media where people are saying whatever they want about him, and overwhelmingly, the message is that he's quite a handsome guy because there's lots of shirtless pictures of him. And we're in this world where there's this legal process, but also there's this sort of social media lust process as well.

Yeah. And he I mean, all the while, he's in prison. He's been denied bail twice in Pennsylvania. And I think, you know, the rules are quite different in the US than they they are in the UK or in Ireland or many other countries in terms of what you can say about someone once they're charged, and so there aren't those same restrictions. So as as you say there, Adam, it's a bit of a wild west in terms of, what people are saying.

And I wouldn't be surprised if kind of the next time that he appears in court that there's a gaggle of people outside supporting him, for whatever reason and probably a mixture of reasons, because it's really sort of grabbed the zeitgeist here, this case. And, yeah, as you say, you know, like, he's being referred to as the hot guy and, you know, the fact that we're told he removed his mask at the hostel in New York originally, which is where that first very clear picture came from because there was some kind of flirting going on with the person at the desk. So all of this, it just reads and sounds like a movie, and I'm sure there's a movie in the works somewhere, about this. But, you know, we do have to wait for that legal process to play out, and I suspect it will take quite some time.

And I suppose, Sumi, the the point about the American court system is it is just much more public. There's a lot more commentary. And I'm just thinking about, like, watching court cases where, like, the the lawyers will come out and do press conferences and chat to the media in the middle of the day in court. And you're saying, alright. The this is just all it's just all sort of hung out a lot more than than it is in in other legal systems as as Katrina was suggesting.

And, actually, I wonder if all the the social media commentary is a sort of 2024 extension of of that kind of more old school thing.

Yeah. And and just think about Donald Trump's hush money trial, and we saw Donald Trump come out every day at, you know, when they were in pauses, lunch breaks, for example, and speak to the media directly. I mean, there was constant interaction with the media. You're right that it is quite different to what you would see in other countries. And in fact, the the the fact that we would we saw already from Luigi Mangione's when he was apprehended, when he was detained by police in Pennsylvania, immediately, you saw a number of mugshots come from police there, which is something that in other countries, you know, that's considered part of their privacy, innocent until proven guilty.

Here, we've almost had this flood of continuous content about Mangione, and that is actually whipped up even more fervor around this case on social media. And to Katrina's point, I think there absolutely would be a huge presence outside of any court case that ends up happening, which likely would be, you know, in New York where he's going to be facing those charges, if he's extradited as expected. But, yeah, you know, you could say that big court cases here in the US become something of a spectacle. I remember growing up here seeing the OJ Simpson case. I mean, that was, you know, prime time television every day.

And, you know, obviously, this is not the same case, but you can expect there to be tons of attention.

Well, Sumi, thank you very

much.

Thanks, Adam.

And, Katrina, thanks to you too.

Thank you.

Now we're gonna focus on British domestic policy because today, the Ministry of Justice and the Justice Secretary Sheibana Mahmoud published a new strategy setting out how they're going to build the much needed new prison places in the UK, 14,000 of them by 2031. And if this is a subject you're interested in, then you may remember that the previous government had a target of building 20,000 prison places by the middle of this decade. So what is going on? The person who knows, of course, is Chris Mason. Hello, Chris.

Hi. And we're also joined in the newscast studio by Alex Chalk, who was the justice secretary in the previous government. Hello.

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Not for the whole conservative government. There were a few of you.

There were a few. There were yeah. That's true. That's true. I was there for a year, but when I was sworn in, the law chief justice did say, yeah, there's been a certain amount of churn.

Another 1. Another 1.

And have

you just because you're you're out of politics now. Yeah. You've just been in court today.

I've been in court today. I'm at the, Old Bailey. I'm prosecuting a a really difficult and, yeah, unpleasant murder.

Okay. Well, let's get you back in your old job there to sort of relax after a difficult day.

Yes. Don't know

if it's relaxing. Chris, do you wanna just give us kind of like the post it note version of Shabana Mahmoud's new strategy?

Yeah. So I guess 1 of the things that the new government inherited, not least because Alex and the previous government were wrestling with this in the final months prior to the general election, was the whole business of prisons and prison capacity and bluntly running out of spaces. And that's something the new government had to take on in the summer, and we saw people being let out early, bluntly, or earlier than they otherwise they otherwise would have, come out of prison. What we've had today from the new justice secretary, or new ish justice secretary, is this plan for 14,000 extra places, prison places in England and Wales over the next decade. 4 more prisons over 7 years, some extensions as well to existing, prisons.

And then at the beginnings of a conversation from her, or the extension of a conversation from her and her ministers, to make an argument that says you can't build your way out of a prison capacity problem. There also needs to be a conversation about reoffending. So 80% of offending is reoffending, so said the prison's minister, Lord Timpson, today. So how do you have a conversation about what you do in that kind of space, whilst from a government's perspective, also appear that you are tough on crime? That you're not going soft as some might see it.

You're not, arguing for something that politically might be quite hard to sell. And all of this in a political space where, you know, there isn't going to be a vast well of sympathy for the customers, if you like, of this part of the functioning of the state. Because I guess mentally, a lot of us might associate people passing through the court system and being put into prison as being that's a problem that we don't have to think about. But collectively, as a state, and certainly from a government's perspective, it is something you have to think about. And it is something that is a, you know, a part of a functioning state and a big kind of consumption of, public money.

So, you know, useful space on newscast to have a conversation about how it can be done, and whether it's being done well, and how it might be done better, and what might be contributing to the kind of challenges that that Alex faced in government and that Shabaddha Mahmoud now faces.

And you talk about money, and this document confirms a figure that's been around for a little while, which is that, on average, each new prison place costs half a £1,000,000 kind of in capital. So in terms of the investment to build it, and then quite a lot over its over its lifetime to to to actually run it. And there is some there is several 1,000,000,000 of pounds behind this strategy. Alex, I really wanna pick your brains about just how the whole system works. But first of all, I kinda gotta do the political journalist thing.

And Shabana Mahmud in her forward kinda make some some allegations against the previous government I wanna put to you. First of all, just the, the the even the 20,000 pledge, which is what was the pledge a few years ago, the number of places you were gonna build, even that wasn't realistic because actually the prison population was always going to grow faster than that. So even your ambitious target, which you didn't even meet, still wasn't even realistic.

Okay. Well, the well, the first thing is there was a 20,000 target, so that's true. And the target was to do that by the mid, 2020s of which by the end of next year, 2025, we would have built 10,000. So 1 of the prisons that is about 80% built now is called HMP Mill Site. That will open next year.

No doubt. You know, they will go, brilliant. Look at this. We built this prison, but, of course, it was, being built before. And the 3 further prisons that are in this plan, Garth, Gartree, and Grendon Spring Hill, those were all the prisons that we were going to build.

So they were gonna be built, it's true there was a slight delay because of planning issues, but those were gonna be built around 28, 29. So that that was gonna happen in any event. The the point that she makes though is a fairer point. So that first point that she says is is that's a slightly unfair political point. But the point that she makes is the good 1, which is that you can't completely build your way out of demand.

So that is a fair point, and I think she's right to raise it. However, the solution isn't then, right, but what we need to do is basically send no 1 to prison. That's not the solution. The critical thing

she's not saying that.

Of course she's not. Of course she's not saying. But but just in case anyone were to miss misunderstand, the critical thing that I'm sort of encouraging the government to look at is the fact that we've got a remand population. That's all these people who are awaiting their trials. So in 2019, not a 1000000 years ago, there were 9,000 people in the remand population.

That's now 16,000 out of a total prison population of around 88,000. So that additional 7,000 and that's caused because the system is gummed up because of COVID. So what you've got to do is, yes, have a sentence to review. Fine. Yes, build prisons.

Fine. That's all fine. But you've got to find a way of unblocking the system so that the courts work more smoothly. And I've made a number of recommendations in that regard.

Okay. I mean, that sounds quite a nerdy point, but let's explore it. I mean, what are some what are some silver bullets then for sorting out the the court bit of this puzzle?

Okay. Well, the first we've got to recognize, 90% of all cases aren't heard in the Crown Court. They're heard in the Magistrates Court. So if you very foolishly went and biffed, Chris Mason and you were charged with common assault, that would be dealt within the Magistrates Court. Equally, if there was some threatening or abusive or insulting words of behavior, magistrate's court.

And they bounce back very far. So although, you know, they've got greater caseload, they get through it. But in the Crown Court, the total number of cases in the Crown Court 2019, 39,000. It's now 67 or 68,000, which means that when a serious case comes before the court like a rape or a murder or manslaughter that is being listed for trial a long time in the future, that means people are waiting their trials much longer and a load of them are being kept in custody. So you've got to speed that up.

So the answer is you've got to take some of those lower level cases, not in the crown court, and you've got to put them in the magistrate's court.

And it is a supercharged magistrate's court, the powers that they have, or the the range of cases they can look at. Spot on. So if you put so

for let me just give you a couple of the cases that are currently in the crown court that should be, in the magistrate's court. So, racially aggravated common assault. Of course, it's a serious matter, but usually factually quite simple, deal with that in the magistrate's court. If you're in possession of a false identity document, shouldn't have it, I don't know, a driver's license that is actually phony, Deal that in the magistrate's court. You know, assault on emergency worker.

These poor police officers who are getting thumped by these they're having to wait for their trial for justice for 2 years. Deal with that summary justice, get it done in the magistrate's court.

But I mean, you must have experienced this a lot in in the political hierarchy of the public services. Like, the health service is right at the top. It's kinda like the Oscars. And then getting the courts working is quite down the bottom. It's sort of like sort of village fate kind of vegetable competition.

What it is just think about this as a just a little factoid, a figure to conjure with. The total annual budget of the Ministry of Justice, which deals with over a 100 prison establishments, all the courts in England and Wales, all the legal aid budget, the entire probation service, that annual budget is spent by the Department For Work and Pensions in 2 weeks. Right? So in terms of the relative size, it is tiny. And and yet it deals with something which is so fundamental to to who we are as a country.

You know, we believe in fair play and basically people having fair trials, incredibly important. And I knew when I was secretary of state, when I went abroad, we are so highly regarded for this. We also have the 2nd largest legal sector, not just in Europe, but in the world. It's 1 of the great revenue raises for this country, which means getting the courts working proper properly is mission critical, a, for the country, but also for our reputation.

So do justice secretaries, and and you were 1, and Shabana Mahmoud is another, do do do you collectively have to win an argument over the next 5 years, 10 years, whatever the the horizon might be, that a functioning state requires well, does it require is it is it a money thing? Perhaps the the leaning for the lever of money is is is the wrong is the wrong mindset, but does it need do do do do justice secretaries need to win an argument within government That they need a greater slice of the attention pie, the financial pie to try and because this is a problem that's complex, isn't it? And needs real attention to resolve.

Look, it it does. But actually, I I I'd say this, it's not principally 1 about money at this stage. Of course, more money is welcome. And if I had some, I'd actually put it into the court system because we need to be attracting more legal aid lawyers and all that stuff. So I think, you know, with an additional half a1000000000, my goodness, you could work wonders in that department.

However, even if I was secretary of state now, and some the chancellor in their munificence gave me £10,000,000,000 that would not of itself solve the problem. Because what you've got to do is some plumbing in the system. And I know it's a boring nerdy point because people think, oh, well, you haven't got enough places in prisons. Therefore, you need to just build a load of prisons or you need to let people out or something like that. The truth is there's a much more sophisticated solution.

And the problem we have at the moment is that the government is saying, look over here in the forest, we're doing this sentencing review. Okay? Because we want to see if there's been inflation. And that's fine. They're saying, look over here, we're building some prisons.

And that's fine. But that would be largely treading water because so many places come off. What they've got to do is some plumbing.

And and

my, you know, my gentle criticism, I'm not here to actually put the boot in particularly.

Well, you have to anyway.

I don't I don't have to anymore. Right? So I'm just telling you as a concerned citizen and somebody who loves the justice system, is there's got to be an answer to this problem. Otherwise, you will bake in service standards which mean people not getting their rate trials listed until 2027, which is unacceptable. And here's 1 final thing.

If you think that this mean that the release that took place in July is an end of it, forget it. Unless there is reform, I'm afraid I I think it's likely law chances have to be letting more people out, which is not it's just unconscionable.

And that's all very interesting, but can we just sort of focus a bit more back on the on the prison building thing today? Because that is the new story today, and it's so interesting hearing all of this, and it's it's very important. But just a few other things that I wanna put to you. I mean, in this strategy today, the the the current government says the previous government was a bit kind of weak in the face of the planning system and, didn't force through prison building in the face of the planning system.

What

Was there were there levers you could have pulled if you'd been a bit more muscular?

Well, no. It's a it's a very fair question. It's a fair challenge. So when I came in in April 2023, I was extremely frustrated that, 3 of the prisons that we were referring to Garth, Gartrey, and Grendon Spring Hill were gunned up in planning. So that is true.

So we, thought about whether we should use these compulsory purchase powers and use Michael Gove to do it. In fact, we were so far down that process that it would have slowed things down to go to to bin off the conventional process and do the Gove thing. And actually that turned out to be correct because they've they've all got planning permission now. So, yes, they were gummed up for a year and that's annoying. So what I did is I got some more money out of the treasury about £35,000,000 and we bought up or we were buying up a load of sites for for prisons 10 years in advance so that this issue could never come around again.

Now this government is doing it in a slightly different way. That's fine. It comes to the same thing. So so the the legitimate criticism is, oh, well, was there a bit of optimism bias and this went back a year? Yeah.

That's a I think you can make a reasonable criticism about that. The suggestion that we didn't have a prison building program, that's rubbish. We had started the largest prison building program since the Victorian era. 2 were already built, 5 Wells and Fosse Way, great next by the way. Go and look at them really, really good.

Millsyk, which is Britain's 1st ever all electric prison that is opening next year. We brought on new house blocks at Stockton which

we brought in prison today.

What was that? All electric. Yes. So so you know normal prisons, they've just got massive gas heating systems. So this is 1 of these ones where you've got these ground source heat pumps and it's very environmentally friendly.

Like you're a Green

1 Prison, I said.

Yeah. It's an incredibly high-tech prison, and it's amazing. And and of course, you know, I know it's politics, but it's gonna be really annoying that next year they'll go along and say, brilliant, we built this prison. It is actually 80% built already, just just

for the record.

Well, I I wonder I I find myself when we have conversations like this wrestling with a a a big picture thought, which is, what is if it's even possible to alight on this, that the right number or the right proportion of society to find themselves incarcerated? Because we've seen this steady uptick in prisoner numbers. We've seen an uptick in kind of sentence inflation. And I'm trying to work out, is that because the the propensity to be criminal has grown, or our collective desire expressed through elections and different justice secretaries, etcetera, etcetera, is that a greater proportion of people should be jailed because that's the right place for them. I I I just wonder on that big picture philosophy, where you find yourself.

Right. So there are 2 that's 2 it's a brilliant question respectfully. So the first thing is there is more there is more of certain types of crime. Okay? So although violent crime has come down and actually burglary has come down, a lot of things are prosecuted which simply weren't prosecuted when I started at the bar.

So domestic abuse, it was considered a domestic literally and Leave it at all. Left it all alone. That is now not just as it were a mitigating factor. That's an aggravating factor. It makes it more serious.

The second thing, historic sex offenses were left all alone. There's now a much much higher proportion of those offenses which are tried. And then to your second point, attitudes have changed. So again, when I started at the bar, the standard tariff for a murder, just, you know, what you might think of as an ordinary murder, they're all incredibly serious of course, would be a starting point of 15 years after which the parole board could consider whether to release you if you're safe to be released. You might not get released at the 15 year mark, but that was the earliest period.

Now I think a lot of people say, what? 15 years for murder? That is ridiculous. And quite rightly, I happen to think that if someone has, you know, murdered someone with a knife or a firearm, it should be much more than that. But that is a changing attitudinal shift.

And I'll give you 1 other example. When Wayne Cousins, you remember that that appalling case, and he got a whole life tariff, and I think most people agreed that that was the right thing. Be before that, I mean, 10 as little as 10 years ago or 20 years ago, that would never trigger a whole lifetime.

But but doesn't this reinforce Shabana Mahmoud's criticism of your guys record? In that you smart people could see this happening, it was an observable phenomenon, and yet you still didn't build enough prison places to deal with the phenomenon you could see happening in front of you. No.

Well, and that gets back to the nerdy but really important point. Because the single biggest pressure, this is what I want to, is actually although we're right to be talking about sentencing and, you know, Chris is making a fair point. Are we now banging people up for longer? And correct. But that's not the first order issue.

It's not the second order issue. That is the third order issue in terms of, pressure on poverty. It's the fact that the system is gummed up. I know that's a boring point. The second issue is, guess what, is recall.

So if you got a 2 year sentence, you're out after 1, and you're out minding your own business. Now supposing the offense was committed because, you had an alcohol problem or whatever. And although that had been stabilized, you you just had a relapse. And you didn't attend your appointment with your probation supervisor. You go back inside.

Now even if they were able to stabilize you really quite quickly Mhmm. And sort everything out, you could be waiting for a year before the parole board gets around to deciding whether to spit you back out again. So 1 of the issues is that the parole board is taking, you know, a long time to deal with these recall cases. So all I'm saying is that, of course, we should talk about all these other things and the government is perfectly entitled to all about sentencing. It's fine.

But their their failure, I'm afraid, to look at the first 2 issues, I think with the energy that they require, mean that they are at great risk of having to take a step which they're not gonna want to take.

I wonder about the argument around people who are convicted on, and given shorter sentences. Right. Someone was suggesting to me that there's a remarkably high number of people who might just go in for a handful of months into prison for relatively, quote unquote, minor offenses relative, you know, in comparison with a a murderer or whatever, and go in clean and come out addicted to drugs, and then you've layered on an additional complexity and perhaps a greater propensity to to reoffend. Is there is there a useful conversation to be had about whether or not, for those sentences, for very short sentences, there might be a a better a better punishment?

Well, absolutely no question. And that indeed was my very policy when I was in government. So it could be crystallized by saying we should be locking up those we're scared of, not everyone we're cross with. Okay? So the point is the average length of a sentence for those sentenced to under 12 months is 4 months, of which you serve half now a bit less.

Now the the statistics the data shows, not just the data in England and Wales, by the way, but also in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Australia, and around the world. The people who were forced to serve those 2 months or the 4 month sentence have got around an over 55% chance of reoffending. Because guess what? It's just driven a freight train through their lives. They've lost their reputation, probably, their their relationship, their marriage, their mental, all sorts of things.

Right? But if the sentence is suspended, in other words, stand up please, Joe Blogs. You've been sentenced to to, 4 months imprisonment. I'm not sending you to custody today. You've got to abide by the following things, attend the anger management and the alcohol stuff, and you've got to do your work.

And if you don't, the sword of Damocles hangs over you so that if you step 1 foot out of the line, you'll go inside. Their chance of reoffending is around 25%. So my argument was, absolutely, let's have that conversation, and let's look at the other end, the people we're most scared of, the Wayne Cousins of this world, the people who've committed appalling barbaric violence. I'm afraid I have 0 sympathy. I'm thinking they have to be locked up, and they should be locked up, in many cases for a very long time indeed.

So that that's all fine. But the only thing I would say is that if the government thinks, because they're looking at this as well through David Gork. Oh, well, that's gonna be brilliant. Because what we're gonna do is we're not gonna have short sentences and that's gonna free up loads of spaces. That is gonna run straight into the political realities that Chris was making at the beginning, which is that you will have to exclude from that knife crime.

You will have to exclude domestic abuse, and you'll have to just hold it up.

So the scope for change is not as

big as you might think. It's much more limited than you might think.

Yeah. Just a few questions before we wrap up. Because I know you've had a very very long busy day by the sounds of things. The thing that jumps out at me from this report is something like 13 British prisons have got WiFi for the staff out of more than a 100 institutions. Why is the public sector just so kinda naff at that sort of thing?

It's like fax machines at hospitals.

It is appalling. The the level of waste in that from that point of view is just it's completely unforgivable. And I really do think that we you know, it's a bigger conversation. We gotta remake the state, and I think that's that's part of it.

Starting my right thing?

Well, no, but I I I really think it's when I travel around the world, whether it's going to the United States or whether it's going to India, we in Britain have got to get real. We're living way beyond our means. We're not a dynamic, enough economy.

Look

at the situation in Ireland. I know we're getting a bit off piece, but Ireland is running a massive budget surplus at the moment. It's attracting fantastic businesses. It's doing innovative things so far as the state's concerned. The UK has got to got to become more dynamic.

And I think, ultimately, the most the only way you're gonna get the headroom is by by going off that DWP budget that I told you about. So you can afford some lower taxes, which will inspire all that. But my my my regret about this government is although they talked about a growth agenda, I don't think they're doing enough in that regard to make us competitive and agile and dynamic.

How do

you think Kemi Badenoch is doing in her first few weeks?

I like I like Kemi. I do because the most Did

you vote for her?

I did. Yeah. The most precious thing in politics, I think, and probably in life is authenticity. People have got to know that you're not just doing this. You're not ducking and diving or tacking your trimming your sails to the prevailing wind.

And she I I thought her speech in the states, which didn't get a huge amount of coverage, I'm sad to say, but she talked about this progressive authoritarianism. And I thought, wow. You know, that is courageous and it's thought provoking, and I think she's on the money. So I think she's doing well. I like Kemi and, I'm, I for my part, I'd love to give her a fair wind.

Translate progressive authoritarianism into, like, a sellable bumper sticker thing you could say to somebody if you're if you want to re if you want to campaign in the next general election to reenter parliament, how would you sum that up?

Well, no. Because I think she's railing against it. It. What she's saying is that there

are people

What is it though? Well, what no. Right. So what she's basically saying is there are those who badge themselves as progressive. Look at us.

We're the great guys. We're the nice guys. You know, we're on the side of the angels. But actually, what they're talking about is a group think which sometimes crowds out the very freedom of speech that we should cherish. So there'll be a whole bunch of people on university campuses who say, yeah, look, you know what?

We are progressive. We are the good guys here. And yet there are people and students and lecturers who are cowering in fear because because they fear they're gonna be canceled by what is the prevailing orthodoxy. You mean

it's basically the Mitchell and Webb sketch. What if we're the baddies? Exactly. With the Nazi soldiers.

You you've done it much better

than I can. Last last last question for me, and then I'll give Chris the last word. Talking about Shabana Mahmoud again. So we know that she is opposed to assisted dying in the NHS. But as the Lord Chancellor and, like, the most senior kind of, like, person in the legal system in the government, she will have to implement a system whereby it exists.

Do you think a person who's opposed to something like that can actually deliver a system that is that? Yeah.

She can.

It's fine.

So listen, I I my as I say, I've got a criticism that I think they need you something about the plumbing of the system. But I don't criticize of this. She took took took a view, and I think she will faithfully discharge the duties on her department, if that's the will of parliament. So I don't that doesn't cause me a problem.

Okay. Chris, you can have the last word.

Yeah. Just a big picture thought, really. I wonder how different or not politics feels as you look back into it, look back in on it as a, as an ordinary citizen, if you like, as opposed to as a as as an MP, with that little bit of distance that you now have after the election.

That's a that's a great question. I you know what? I've really thought a lot about this, and it does give you that, perspective. I I genuinely feel, you know, I I love this country, you know, not don't have to be too land of hope and glory about it, but I do reckon that this is a really great great country. But we are at a crossroads.

And I do feel that unless we unless we are quite radical to shake ourselves out of this torpor. When I think about the future for my kids and I look at whether it's godchildren or my nephews, and they're thinking about wanting to go to Dubai or Australia, we've got to generate opportunities for people in this country. And so what I feel really passionate about is how we're gonna reboot Britain so that it is the great country in the future that it has been in the past. And I think that's gonna require a lot of energy and and some quite radical thinking.

Alex, thank you very much.

Thank you for having me.

And just to break the news to you, newscast is now on YouTube every day as well, so some people will have been watching this. Oh my goodness.

I've got

to wear

my tongue.

Get used to that.

I'll make me farthest stuff back. But then I'm

this is the I've stuck to the dress code, the newscast dress code. You're the 1 that's, like, upped the game. Alright. Thank you very much.

Thanks, Alex. Nice to chat. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it.

And, Chris, good to see you too.

Cheers.

And that was today's episode of the BBC's daily news podcast, newscast, which is going to be available here on YouTube every day, Monday to Friday. Now a big important part of this podcast is that we're all in this crazy world experiencing it together. So please get in touch with us anytime about anything. The email address is newscast@bbc.co.uk, and you can WhatsApp us on plus 4433012394 80. Can't wait to hear from you, and can't wait to bring you another episode of Newscast very soon.

Bye.