Transcript of Most Fascinating Defenses of 2024 with Ron Rivera

Back on NFL Daily and back in the Chris Wesling podcast studio here. Really excited to be joined by my friend Jordan Rodrieg of the Athletic and my new friend. I don't know if I can call him a friend, but we've met a few times now. Ron Rivera, maybe a friend of Jordan's here, former coach of the Washington Commanders and the Carolina Panthers. And he's just chilling here at NFL Media. Before we turned on the camera, he was so comfortable. He had his famous Amos cookies out and his bag on the table, and we're like, We're recording this, Ron. We're going to take it away. But I love the shirt for our YouTube audience, too.

Thank you. Something very important is happening in exactly one month from now. We got to make sure we take care. Go vote. Yes. But thank you, Greg. Thank you very much. Jordan, it's always great to be with you.

I'm so happy. This is very surreal for me to be sitting, first of all, on the same side of a lectern or a desk or something with you, Ron, after covering you for so many years. But then also I'm really happy because we're going to talk about defense today, among other things, and Ron just has such great perspective to lend for us on that.

Yeah, we thought it'd be fun to talk with Ron about the defenses that we find the most fascinating so far. We're not ranking them. We're not saying these are the best, but just ones that would be interesting to talk about, Ron, because it's a year for defense right now. It's happening. It's the run game. It's defense. We've been waiting for this push and pull. It started a little bit last year, and it's definitely happening more aggressively right now.

It is because I think the game is changing again. Every so many years, you see this trend going one direction to the other. I think the trend now is heading towards running again. And part of the reason is because I think the defensive players have gotten smaller. Because the defensive players have gotten smaller, you see offense as being more physical, more aggressive up front. People are running the ball more. We talked about this earlier, rushing yards are up compared to the passing yards which are down. So that's something that I think is due to the fact that defensive players are getting smaller, quicker, but the offensive linemen are getting bigger, more physical, and they're athletic.

Yeah, in part, that's the domination of the spread, obviously, that's forcing defenders to be more hybrid, smaller, framed, more multiple, play them in the box, play them back deep if you have to, keeping a shell over the back of things. We have heard some people yelling about on TV. Not you, Ron, never you, but other people yelling about on TV. But it is interesting because we are in a sea change in one of those things. Some of the defense we're going to talk about today are built for it, and some are interestingly built for the past, but still doing some cool stuff for the present.

Yeah, let's talk about them. I guess I want to start with the Vikings because they are the team that is the most gonzo. They are the team that you watch and you think, what exactly are they doing? Now, they've been blitzing for a minute now with Brian Flores, and their blitz rate is still very high, second in the league. But to your point, they are going very light. They play with their dime defense, I think 31% of the time, which is the most in the league. They have three safeties on the field quite a bit. They use them in all these creative ways. Harrison Smith, Josh Metellus, Kim, Bynum. But they also have three cornerbacks on the field quite a bit. They essentially have six starters. How do you see this Vikings team? How are they doing it?

Well, the biggest thing is, too, is up front, they're very stout. They still play very physical, whether it's four down linemen and a lineback or four down linemen and two linebackers. One of the things that Coach Flores does very well is they're very simplistic in terms of some of the things that they do, and they're very good at being very basic. But then the complexity gets you because of the pressures, the way he uses the pressures, the way he mixes up his coverages. He's not always sitting in the same thing. And because of the different personnel groupings that he's willing to match up with, sometimes you get mismatches in the defense favor, as opposed to offense is always getting the positive mismatches.

Ron, I wanted to ask you this from your perspective as someone who has called defensive signals and plays and had to counter offenses and communicate with the mic and really make sure that those counters are implemented with your defense. You hear some of the former players in that system talk about how late the call is getting into the green dot and how late it's getting communicated, not in a bad way, in a way that he's almost giving them a third counter, especially with all this pre-snap motion that offenses are using to try to take the teeth out of some of the pressure he does run or some of the formation changes they use. From your perspective, if you're going to do it that late, you see it the way they built their defensive roster with those veterans. What are key elements of that communication to add that late counter, that third counter, right up until the snap?

Well, first of all, the biggest thing you just said was about having veterans, having the right guys back there that are what I call air traffic controllers. They're the guys that are making those decisions, making those late checks all of a sudden. And so what you have to do is you do have to have very bright, intelligent guys that can help make those calls and checks and get them across to everybody. But also you also got to have guys that are committed to the work ethic of what it's going to take. And with Coach Flores, I promise you, their walkthroughs, their meetings, those things are very, very good. I mean, they're constantly probably talking about the what ifs, how can we handle these things, and what are our adjustments. Back in the day, they're called AFCs, Automatic Fronts and coverages. Based on what you get from the offense, you check on defense. I learned that from buddy Ryan, Rex Ryan and Rob Ryan used some of that when they were coaching in the league as full-time coordinators and head coaches. Those guys were always thinking that, again, we want to put our defense in the best defense to match what the offense potentially does at these formations.

It's interesting, though, because now offenses are giving more questions to the defense. They're asking them to declare what they're going to do, essentially earlier in the snap, earlier before the snap than ever. So the fact that he can make a second check, and safety's joke about this, Oh, maybe one day we'll finally win because we'll get a third check. Well, Brian Flores is able to give that third check because he can lean on the communication element Let's talk about that, too, because the cliché is they're on a line together. But a phone line, too. I mean, they're not able to talk to each other directly in the helmets, but the fact that they can communicate in this way, they're gaming the system a little with what offenses are trying to get them to tell them. First of all, they're not showing what they're actually going to do because they're countering it with that check or that rotation so late in the down or in the snap.

That's so important. Again, it's not just about being able to disguise what you want to do and give the presentation to, Hey, we're going to play this type of coverage because we got a safety tilting that direction. Okay, that could be a false key. Again, just because I'm tilted doesn't mean I'm going to stay down, or I'm aligned up over the top of the number two receiver and the nickels cheating in like he's going to go ahead and run a pressure. You know what I'm saying? So again, disguise is just as important and being in tune with one another so that if I see he's stepping down, For this specific call, that doesn't necessarily mean on the quarterback's eyes, Oh, they're rotating that direction. No, we could be doing something different because I know he's moving this. He's telling me something else.

Right. The quarterbacks just seem like they're confused. They're holding the ball longer. We were talking at our desk, Jordan, about that. It might take a quarterback really being confident to spot throw because there are going to be holes here. If you're blitzing a lot, and they blitz about 40% of the time, it's actually less than last year, and you're dropping a couple of safeties back, that's a strange way to do it, but that's what they're doing. They're trying to, in theory, have an umbrella over everything. There should be some spots to on the field, are they willing to give up some big plays in order to make some big plays? If you're Brian Flores, you need maybe a quarterback like a Gino or an Aaron Rodgers or some veteran that's a little, Stafford, a little more confident throwing into those areas when you're playing a defense like that. You don't find many quarters backs like that in a league anymore.

No, because, again, what they're trying to do more something else is if they're going to give anything up, they're going to give things underneath up. Again, a lot of things they're going to do are going to also be based on down and distance. Understanding that, Hey, second and long. Hey, it's okay. Yeah, they complete something quick underneath. We'll drive down, we'll make the tackle, and we'll be in third down. Or if it's third and long, Hey, we're willing to give this up because, again, it's about making the tackle, getting them down, getting out of the situation, forcing the punt. So again, a lot of the things that they do are all calculated. I promise you, Coach Flores has really looked at these things, thought about these opportunities, put them in the game plan. He's got guys that understand it, that can communicate that to the guys that are lining up out there on the defensive It's an interesting way to ask to dare a quarterback.

We think about daring the quarterback with the pressure, right? But you're daring a quarterback, essentially, if you want to beat us, if I'm Brian Flores and the Vikings event, if you want to beat us, You have to play truly blind football in a way, because when you talk about spot throws, what Greg's saying is throwing to a landmark on the field without maybe even seeing where that is because there's so much pressure coming into your face. It's going to be underneath. It's not going to be the explosion of pass play. You have to play this egoteless, blind football, and quarterbacks don't want to do that.

No, they don't. They're second right now in EPA per play, fifth in success rate. They're top team in terms of total efficiency and DVOA, if you want to get into the numbers. You got to appreciate coaching because what I just from more of a layman can understand is when a new coach comes in and the players that were there before are performing better in certain aspects. Harrison Smith, we thought, was maybe getting towards the end of his career. I swear he's playing as good as he's ever played. Josh Metellus. No one's ever heard of Josh Metellus before. They got him play in six different positions. He's paying down linemen He's like a safety. They got him playing linebacker. They got him playing safety. They got him playing cornerback. He's a really key part, can buy them. You have guys at cornerback that are like journeymen, Gilmore and Byron Murphy is a nice signing, but Shaq Griffin. They're all playing, I think, better, and they understand what the coach is asking him to do.

Exactly. I think one of the things, too, is when you've got guys with the same skillset, and now all of a sudden you can sit there and say, Well, they can't create the mismatch that they want. We can create the mismatch. Why? Because we have three guys that have the same skillset, whether they be 3Dbs or corners or they be 3 safeties. Now, all of a sudden, you have one guy that come down and play like a linebacker, and you say, Well, the other two can't. Well, all of a sudden, you start motion. All of a sudden, instead of these guys chasing him, they rotate the other direction. You can Okay, so now we know they're in zone, but guess what? They're playing man. You know what I'm saying? Usually when a guy runs across, what do you got? What do you usually got? Man coverage.

I love that. I love that they're countering motion this way because motion, like I mentioned before, it exists in part. There's a lot of other things now that smart coaches are doing with it. It exists in part to get the defense to tell you what coverage is they're playing. It's an information-seeking tool. Now, of course, there's formation changes, things like that, but they're not giving any information. In fact, they're getting more from you when you go in motion, because then they are going to give another check.

A great example team that uses motion to ID or to undress the defense is Miami. With the way they take their receivers and they move them over here and they put somebody over there and they put them in stacks. What they're looking for is to see how you align against them. If you align over the top, they're thinking, Okay, we've got man covered. You align shading on the inside, two, three yards off on the inside. They know they got zoned. So again, if you can disguise, if you can move yourself properly and put yourself in position, that's one thing. Then if you put yourself in the right position, can you react and get to where you need to be? Great example is if you get motion outside and you get a linebacker goes that lines up over the top, and all of a sudden you sit there and go, Wow, we've got man coverage. Well, you've got a mismatch. You got Christian McAfee against a linebacker. Now all of a sudden, where's the safety favor? Now, if the safety's favor over there helping against Christian McCaffee, now who's that open? Well, over here, we got Debo open, or he's one-on-one because they're showing single high.

That's what the offenses are looking for. How does the defense counter that? Well, I can favor over here, but I can play middle of the formation. So there's things that you can counter to help support what you want to do on defense by But again, proper disguise and understanding where that help is going to be.

It's the defense is dictating. I know Ron Rivera loves that. It's like when he was on the field for the 86 bears. We're going to dictate, not let the offense dictate. And Flores has been so fantastic This year, I think we'll see how the rest of the year goes, but I think he's worthy of getting some head coaching interviews. I think that's going to be an interesting moment for the league, considering the litigation that he had had with the League, and I really hope that it is in a situation where he doesn't get coaching interviews because that would be a bad look for the league. He didn't last year, which definitely caught my eye, and we will see. We'll hold on to that for a second. Let's go to some other defenses that we find fascinating. You throw out a favorite. We could go Broncos. We could go bears. I'll throw out the Broncos.

I want to talk about the Broncos.

The Broncos are surprising to me. They are the team that's leading the league in blitzes right now. It's just crazy. Almost half the time, they're blitzing, and they're just testing your protection. I was surprised that they seem to outsmart Aaron Rodgers, who you would think is among the best play callers in the league, even though he's a quarterback and he gets help obviously, from his coaching staff and everything. Their offensive line was a little scrambled where that pressure was coming back. They made him hold the ball. They hit him 14 times. They sacked him five times. They've been really effective. I think Vance Joseph maybe made the decision, maybe we're not the most talented group up front. Totally, they're not bad, but we're going to need to scheme our way into being great.

Well, I think one of the things, again, if you go back and think about what happened last year, people wanted to see Vance Joseph fired from Denver. Again, now all of a sudden, Sean sticks with him, gives him the next year coming into it. And what does that mean? Well, it means that these guys on defense are now in the same system. They have a little bit of experience of what to expect from what Coach Joseph wants. Now all of a And now, all of a sudden, there's this communication aspect, because when you watch these games and you see these guys giving the hand signal, you see the looks, you see the points, you see the movement. Now, all of a sudden, it starts being put into place. Everything he wants to do is all based off of these guys communicating. And that's probably the biggest word that we can use in terms of why their success is you've got smart players who can communicate. You've got a defensive coordinator who's trying to put these guys in proper position to make place. But they're also being given tools to, like we talked about earlier, is we can check.

We can go from one coverage to another. We can show zone and play man. We can play man and show zone. We can split the defense and play quarters on one side, half on the other, so we can roll up and take away a specific side of of the offense. So there's a lot of tools that these coaches, especially these veteran guys that you're seeing, these guys are guys that have the experience that have done it before, and now they've got the players that can match what they want done.

This is their moment. Okay. I love, though, when we talk about blitzes and bringing extra pressure and those types of things, it can sound maybe like it's complicating things. But in the case of the Broncos, they've actually made things less complicated in the sense that they're playing You have this ethos that is very trademark, that is rare, that people don't actually get a lot of these days because they have a shutdown elite corner. You can flex a lot of different coverages, like you said. You can be very malleable and play very free and mathematical on the back end. If you have Pat Sertain, who, by the way, has only allowed eight catches for 85 yards through the four games when targeted. And that's against receivers that he shadowed over 60% of routes. Dk Metcalf, George Pickens, Mike Evans, and Garrett Wilson. When you are simplifying things in the sense where you're like, All right, I've got that guy. Now, everything is going to revolve around that guy taking away at least three pieces of math for the offense because those receivers Those caliber receivers are plus three players. So that revolves around taking away that amount of math, essentially, and then flipping the leverage.

Okay, yeah, you can send extra secondary players and linebackers to Blitz because you don't even have to worry about the plus three. You can send plus one, plus two on your side because you've already taken care of plus 3. It's interesting because they've simplified it in that sense where it's like, We got a dude, so we're going to revolve things around the dude.

Do you ever have a cornerback like that that changes the way you coach the rest of your defense?

You do do that when you have that guy, most certainly. You have guys that are similar to that, you can do it as well, whether it's at the corner position, the linebacker position.

Linebacker position.

Exactly.

Although you had two of them.

Yes, you did. But when you have guys like that, now you coach everybody else differently because you know that, hey, they're not going to need the help inside in coverage. We can take those safeties and play them a little wider. We can play a little bit more middle open defense, which you're starting to see a lot more right now to try and stop these passing games. That's also part of the reason why I think there's a little bit more running going on is because teams are playing a little bit more cover two shells. Because of that, you're getting less guys in run box and more guys are running the ball. So again, it's about whether you have a player or a positional players that you can say, Hey, you know what? We can add one or two and take away one or two from them as well. Again, Having guys that are pretty special, Luke Geekley, Thomas Davis, those guys, when you have those types of players, that's a special situation. And now, as she talked about, Sertain with Denver, now you can roll your coverage opposite. And you're going to say, We're not not going to let this particular guy beat us.

We're going to put our best guy on him. He's going to know he's either going to have help to his inside or help over the top. Every now and then, he's not going to get a lot of help, and we're going to try and eliminate this over here with the other 10.

We're going to try to help Riley Moss out, who's fighting for his life on the other side. A second-year player who was hurt last year, and teams are going after him, and he's holding up, okay, some penalties, some bad plays, but they've been very consistent. They're 10th against the pass, fifth against the run, fifth overall in terms of DVOA, and they're making it work. It's made them watchable because these Bo Nicks games, this is where I feel a little...

They got to do a lot of work, man.

I feel a little sick because I'm just like, I miss just... I like different flavors. I love me a Gino, Goff shootout on a Monday night, but I like a 10 to 9. Just like, Oh, man, are either of these teams going to score Slopfest Broncos jet? I like having different flavors in the NFL. Bronco is giving us that. Let's talk about your bears. Do Will you still consider them your bears? I guess you've been going up against them for like 30 years.

Yeah, but you know what? When you've played with the bears, you'll always be a bear.

Okay. I was just in Chicago.

It was great.

You've coached against Matt Iberfluss a couple of times, went and looked. I found a 12-7 Washington victory. Their defense was already playing well back then against you guys. My question for them, and you can tell me what you just think, how they structure things. I've had questions of some teams, are they built for this 2024 football? Because to me, they're built very much on both sides of the ball of like, we're going to stop the pass, and the numbers would say they're one of the very best stopping the pass, getting after the quarterback. And maybe we're not as focused on stopping the run. Offensively, I think they're also built to throw the ball and not as much to run the ball. I'm wondering if those teams could be in a little bit of trouble this year. They haven't really stopped the run that well, but we think of them as like an elite defense. I don't know if they're quite there. They're very good in past situations, not so much against the run. Is that the Ibrafluous defense or what is it?

To me, what I've always thought is almost a bend, don't break type of defense. Keep the game close, That way during crunch time, something big can happen on the defensive side.

Or special teams where they found some margin.

That's the one thing that don't forget about what they've done on special teams in terms of they blocked a punt, returned it for a breakdown. I I believe that was the Tennessee game.

Their punter also against the Rams completelyiced that game out.

Tori Taylor. I mean, people were getting on him for a fourth-round pick. That's way more valuable than the majority of fourth-round pick. He won that game. Come on. He really did.

If you think about where they kept pinning it. Statistically, it is very hard to go 80 yards and score touchstones. It's even harder to go 90 yards and score touch downs, let alone 98 yards to go and score touch downs. So Having that weapon has really helped their defense again as well, because if we can keep them pinned on their side of the ball, I mean, of the 50, you're going to give your defense opportunity to be successful a lot more. Plus, what it's going to do is create better field position for your offense.

Yeah, they're one of the few teams that I think you can genuinely consider that special teams as an extension of specifically the defense. You see, actually, that that's part of the plan with the way that the bears are pressuring more in the second half versus the first half. They really dialed things up. I saw it in person this past weekend. It's interesting. That actually shows you that even though they're not usually playing with a lead, that they're still going to rush the passer or try to dial pressure as much as they can on opportunities that other teams are throwing the ball. They have to throw the ball because they're backed up. Even if you're the bears and you're in a deficit, if you can back the other team up, they're going to feel like they have to throw the ball against you.

Teams that have had success against the are always in front of the chains. They're not chasing it. If you can get them as the bears, get them to chase it, they're going to be very successful in a terrific pass rush. Monte Sweat, I think, is really one of the really good outside edge rushers in this league, and he'll continue to do those things for them. Your guy. Yes, he is a good football player, and he has really helped that resurgence since he got there last season. So a lot of big pluses for them as far as that's concerned. And again, a lot of things that Matt does on defense for the most part is very solid. It's sound football. They're not doing anything overly extraordinary. What they're doing is they're doing the basic things very, very well, and all the little wrinkles they put in there are very good.

And they've drafted and developed to that strength. They've taken a lot of players in the defensive backfield. Some hit quick, some took a little longer, but overall now, it's one of the best young groups in the entire NFL. They got to try to win that way. But yeah, the Bear Special teams excelling. We're a long way from Cody Parky and the double doink way back in the day for the bears. All right, before we let you go, let's... I don't know. Do we have a favorite coach? Actually, you were with the commanders last year. Before we talk maybe our favorite coaches of the year so far, are you still in touch with what's going on in Washington?

Well, I pay attention to what's going on throughout the league. I know Coach Quinn very well. Dan has done a tremendous job. I'm a big fan of his because, again, I had to compete against him. I was thinking almost every Every year when we were in Carolina, and then he goes to Dallas, and I finally thought I got rid of him, and he's in Dallas, and I can deal with that again. I stayed in touch with Dan and big fan of what he's done. Also big fan of Cliff Kingsbury, what he's doing for the commanders and he's doing with Jane Daniels has been tremendous. It really has. Jane has done a tremendous job learning and growing and continuing to develop. Cliff, probably one of the biggest things and best things they did, knowing that this is their guy, he went out and tried to find out what he did best at LSU, and took that and morphed that and evolved his offense. Now this quarterback is not just necessarily learning a whole new thing as much as he's learning to do what he does best and improve upon it. The young man has worked very, very hard for them.

Yeah. To expand even further, we see the best coaches and coordinators do this. We see them do that research to not just say, Here is my system, and you are going to run the plays in my system, and we have selected you because you're a fit in my system. Instead, you identify plus traits, exceptional traits, and you select. It's not the whole playbook, but you select from a bucket of those plays that are plus, plus plays or that are comfortable plays or that are plays that you can understand make a difference in that quarterback.

As you know, we did that in Carolina. We did that with Cam Newton, Rob Chudzinski, Mike Shula. They go down and they spend time with Auburn. They learn as to what they did and how they used Cam Newton, try to find out what best fit Cam. Then they took those things and they mixed them and put them together and created the offense that we used in Carolina for all those years with Cam Newton.

Odds are that Mike Shula was down in the Auburn heat still wearing the same hoodie.

Oh, yeah, probably. Mike is a creature of habit.

Little Mike Shula inside joke. I love it between these two. I don't know what you guys are talking about. That's amazing, though. It's cool to me that you mentioned you were on the phone with Cliff and everything that you were there last year and you're talking about and hearing about the things that he's doing with Jane.

Ron just likes good coaching.

That's football.

It really is. It's football. That's what it's about. It's about the business of the game. When you see coaches do some really good things. You want to make sure you get an opportunity to talk with them, acknowledge it. I mean, the things Todd Bowles is doing in Tampa Bay, getting his opportunity again. Somebody that people keep forgetting about is Andy Reid. I mean, sure he's won back to Super Bowl, but let's be honest about it.

People get bored with success or resentful. You're a guy, Andy. My wife and daughter, they're more casual fans, and they're just like, We're sick of the Chiefs. I think they represent a lot of people. They don't want to hear about Andy Reid. We recognize Andy Reid's all-time great.

Think about how hard. He's got to do it again. He's got to do it again. But the guy that he has on his side that helps him an awful lot is Steve Spagnola. Again, we talk about defense. We talk about a guy that schemes up things, a guy that grew up in the Jim Johnson system. A lot of people remember who Jim Johnson was, one of the great all-time defensive coordinators. I put him up there with Buddy Ryan. I mean, these guys, they had their own way of doing things. Guys like Steve got the opportunity to learn from it. And look at what he's doing. Look at the success. He's an aggressive play collar. He gets after quarterbacks, okay? When he knows when to back off and play coverage, they mix their coverages. They disguise their coverages very, very well.

Reid might be my coach of the year so far. That's an out-of-the-box pick, which it shouldn't be because they're 4-0.

That's wild that that's out-of-the-box. I know, but- It could be that every He could.

But this is a year where I think they're making more with less and they're finding ways to win. That was how they ended last year, frankly, too. That's coaching.

That's margin. Don't forget Kevin O'Neill.

Oh, my pick for Coach of the Year.

That's your pick so far. We're four weeks in. Okay, that's your thing.

We know he's got Coach Flores taking care of the defense. Go do your thing. But look what he's done with Sam Darnal.

Yeah. But I would push back on you a little bit, Ron, for not the first time in my life. I think that hiring Brian Flores speaks a huge, significant amount of Kevin O'Neill, not because of the prestige and the reputation as a former head coach, but because you're coming in and you're buying into a system that is going to come into practice every day and absolutely freaking torture your own quarterbacks. That's an ego-less decision. It's an ego-less decision. I think he knows. Also not forcing as an Oh, you know this, dude. Offensive coaches. Oh, man, I'm sorry. I'm going to rant a little bit. Offensive coaches, they so often get into this habit of hiring or going after defensive coaches who are going to complement what they do on offense, less so assert a completely holistic identity on defense. And the Vikings are saying, We are going to kick you in the teeth on offense with smart scheme and sound quarterback play and a balanced attack and interesting ideas. And We're going to be aggressive, and we're going to throw the ball even though we're up 28 to zero. And also on the other side, Cut loose, Brian Flores.

Assert. You're not complimenting, in the way that we talk about complementary football. It's complementary in the way that it all works. But you're actually saying, Okay, I want that unit to assert with its own identity. I think that is a huge, huge trademark of what we've seen from Kevin O'Neill and his identity as a coach so far, and I think it puts him in contention early.

Well, that to me is not the only reason, but I think a lot of it has to do with the way Sam Darnold has played. I think part of it, too, is having the opportunity to practice against Coach Flores' defense every day as well.

Got better against the blitz, right?

Absolutely. Then they help each other. To me, and I agree with what you're saying, because when you see the aggressive nature of your defense as an offense, and you see the way they're taking the ball away right now. You can say the same thing about Detroit, the way they're taking the ball away. That's great. Why? Because they're putting us in position to score. That's one of the big things that we Which you used to talk about in Carolina was winning the takeaway battle and not just that, but scoring or putting the offense in scoring position. Go back to the year Philadelphia went to the Super Bowl, they led the league in takeaways in the first half on the opponent's side of the 50-yard line, which led to more scores, and their offense was leading scoring team after takeaways. So these are things that you try to preach to your team. And when you see it happen as an offensive unit, you get fired up. You can't wait for your defense to get back on the field and take the ball away for you.

Now they're the opposite, the Eagles. I think they've lost the turnover battle in 10 straight games, which is hard to do, just luck-wise. That is really hard to do. That's a reason why they're at 2-2, or maybe even lucky to be at 2-2. You're right about O'Neill and Flores said it takes a little bit of a lack of ego because I was hearing reports from some of the beat writers there during camp that there were moments where they're like, Can you just let Sam Darnold and our rookie, complete a pass. There were just some days where they were just totally scrambling the quarterbacks, and they couldn't get good work in. But eventually, that's going to help them out. That's why I have Jordan here. She's smarter about all this scheme stuff than I am. It's why I have you here, Ron Rivera. I'd love to have you again because you show me how to wear perfect glasses that fit perfectly, which has been a goal of mine forever. I mean, you're killing the glasses game, killing the T-shirt game. I appreciate I appreciate you coming in, Ron.

No, thank you for the opportunity, guys. This has been a lot of fun. All right.

I got to argue with you again. I love it. That's even better.

It was great to see you guys.

Just real quick, though, whenever we used to have press conferences, Jordan would start. If she was at the end of the press conference, She would go over. We would go longer than I was supposed to be out there because she would come back with something and then I'd have to talk about it. Then she says something, we'll say, Yeah, but what about this? It was more like...

That's like our podcast.

I'd even follow you to the golf cart sometimes.

That is very much like our podcast. That's why we're still going right now. We can't stop honking, but we got to get Ron on a plane. You're heading back home. You got to get to the airport. I appreciate you. I appreciate everyone checking out the show. We got one more show this week. It's going to be my Picks show with Cynthia Freeland. So check that out. That comes out Friday afternoon for Ron Rivera and Jordan Rodriegue of The Athletic. And Jerold McCoy, what a star-studded show. We the big names. Football is back.