Transcript of Kumail Nanjiani Returns

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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by Monica Miles. Hi. Today, we have a returning guest. I think this is Kamal's third appearance on the show. He had a solo, he had Rob, he and Rob, Men's Body-ish.

Rob Mac, as you'll hear.

Which I still need to text him and find out. You do. I got to verify this claim.

Shit. It's real. I saw it on-line. Oh, it is? Yeah.

Okay. Kumal Nanjiani is an actor, a stand-up comedian, and a screenwriter. He was in The Big sick, of course, Silicon Valley, Stuber Eternals, The Love Birds. And he has a stand-up special that is streaming right now on Hulu that I love, called Night Thoughts. Please enjoy our friend Kumal Nanjiani.

He's an up-to-expert.

He's an up-to-expert.

He's an up-to-expert. Your friend makes sparkly water? No.

Do you know Ethan Suplee? Yeah.

You do?

Yeah. The most special guy on the planet, right?

He's a great guy. Yeah.

He's magic. But he texted me out of the blue.

He had a big body journey as well.

He has the most impressive body journey.

He had the most impressive. Yeah.

Yeah, those before and afters. I worked with him on Without a Paddle 21 years ago. He was probably down to 3: 30 from 4: 10. 4: 10? That was his max. In Butterfly Effect, that movie, Monica is rejoining us for the listener. She squirted.

I did take the option to squirt on Mike Kamal.

Don't say that. Don't give in. This is how you hold on.

I have to pick my battles here. Okay?

Well, That one, though, that's not one of the ones you pick.

It's not. You'd be shocked.

But Butterfly Effect, I don't know if you ever saw that movie.

With Ashton?

Exactly. Ethan was 4'10 in that.

How tall is he? Like 6'2, max?

Yeah, he's big. He's probably 6'1 or 6'2.

4'10 is…

That's a massive amount of weight. I don't know where he's at now, but if you follow him on Instagram, he's clearly in the 2: 30 range.

We used to go to the same gym.

Is that how you know him?

I know him just from being around. He's always been a famous Super nice guy. Him and TJ did a movie called Unstoppable.

With Denzel?

The Train movie? I don't know who that is.

Oh, there's a very famous Black actor.

Oh, John David's dad. Yeah. I think I met him through T. J. Back then, and we stayed in touch. But then I would run into him at the gym, and I worked with his sister-in-law, Juliet Lewis. Oh, yes.

You know your stuff.

Yeah.

It's so good to see you. It's been a long time. I know.

I haven't seen you in a while. We've texted, but we haven't I've already seen you. You look big. You look. What are you doing?

Do you like it? Let's just start with, Do you like it?

I like it. When I hugged you, I felt it before I saw it.

Did you bounce off? I'm worried people are bouncing off.

Emily says, When I first did that, she was like, It's like having sex with the corner of a building. Yeah. That's what it felt like, hugging you. It was like trying to hug the corner of a building.

Corner of a building. Yes, we text each other often. You, Rob McEchelhenny and I.

Well, Rob Mac, no. He changed his name.

No, he did not.

Legally changed his name.

No, he didn't.

Yeah, in the credits, it says Rob Mc. Wait.

That's so helpful because I could never nail McEilheny. I know.

I've never said it with confidence. My name is Nanjianne. Mcechelhane, I don't know where to stress. Is it McEchelhane, McEchelhane?

I once said his name wrong on here, and he texted me, and he said, Listen, this is how it works. After the C, if it's followed by a vowel, I'm checked out already.

Right. I've already stopped paying attention.

You want to know the rule? Like McDonald's, because it's a little C in the consonant, that's Mac. I must have this wrong if he changes his name to Mac. Mick. Yeah, that's Mick.

That's McDonald's.

Mcdonald's. If there's a Vowel, it's Mcleheny.

I never knew that.

It's too much. I'm glad he went with Mac.

That's wild that he did that. That's a huge identity shit.

I believe he had a big press conference about it. Oh, he did? I don't think he had a conference, but I think there was a press release. Okay.

Wow. This is like, Kirby was Baptista.

Baptista. Well, it was hard.

Yeah, she's great. What's it now?

Kirby's now just Kirby.

Just one named Kirby?

Yes. Isn't it cool? She said she second-guessed it a bunch, but she's sticking with it. Just Kirby?

Just Kirby. I think of Kirby as Mario's buddy, the little cloud guy.

I think of the vacuum cleaner from the '80s.

I've never heard of that.

It's a beautiful machine. Every heavy metal design.

Vacuum cleaners in the '80s were gorgeous. They really were. They weren't trying to be sleek. They were like, This is what I am.

Even that very famous artist in New York who has a factory, Kutz, Oh. Some of his first work that got all the acclaim was just these luceite glass boxes with these vacuums in them as they came from Sears. And those are worth millions.

What was he saying?

I have problems with this.

To crawl into the mind of the artist.

You have problems with objects being co-opted and called art.

Yeah. He didn't invent that vacuum cleaner. If he invented the vacuum cleaner and then put it in the box, that's fine.

I used to be like that, and now I'm like, You know what? If anything gets a reaction, it can be art. So if they can articulate, like the big thing was a toilet seat hanging on the wall. People were like, This is art. Well, in that context, I guess it is art. I'm not paying a million dollars for two vacuum cleaners in a box of Lucite. But if you can get away with it, get away with it.

But is this art my foot?

Is your foot art? I bet to some people it is.

Oh, that's true.

My friend with the foot fetish. We have a friend with the foot fetish. He does like that. Do you really?

Yeah. I mean, feet is a thing.

He's safe. He's married. There's no threat.

Yeah, there's no But he is obsessed with Monica's feet, and he one time took a cheese grater to them. Yeah, and he really went at it.

What do you go up to? What the fuck are you talking about? He's safe. He just wants cheese grated in my feet. Your bar is so low, Monica.

I know. I'm sorry. I have to take it where I can get it.

Wait, was he getting the dry skin?

Can you relate, though, Kumil? If a girl wanted to do anything to my feet, I'm like, yes, thank you.

But I didn't do it. I was receiving.

I'm saying I'm putting myself in your shoes. Oh, literally. If a woman is interested in my feet, I'm just so flattered by that.

I feel quite self-conscious about my feet. I've been on set sometimes and they're like, All right, could you have your socks off for this? I'm like, I need a week's notice before you could do that.

What do you do during the week to get them prepped?

I have gotten pedicures. I've only gotten two or three in my life, but it's such a good- They're so nice.

It is heavenly. It has a bigger impact than it should.

It really makes you feel good. I got somebody was massaging my jaw muscles today, and I I started crying about my dead grandmother. I don't know what's stored over here. There's a lot going on in here. Years of trauma right here. And so I'm like, I need to work this out.

I just read something. Take it with a grain of salt. I read it online, but it was explaining why the number was 67% of people have teeth loss, nightmares or something with their teeth.

I do.

So it's the vast majority people do. And the explanation is when you're very, very stressed, you clench your jaws a lot. Then when you go to sleep, your brain is figuring out why you're muscle so fatigued.

100%, that makes sense.

It's all about clenching your jaw, and that's how it manifestsates itself at night, which is fascinating.

I used to grind my teeth a lot. I have a mouth guard that I don't wear as often as I should. But honestly, massaging the jaw muscles has helped relieve that. I once got Botox in my jaw. I've heard about that. It was just keeping me up at night.

When I was watching your Stand Up Special, I was really transfixed on what an incredible jawline you have. I was wondering, has getting jacked changed your jawline? It has.

People think I got jaw implants or something. I have not. I have gotten no work done. All I did was I got Botox here. Then they were like, While you're here, you want to do your forehead, too? I did it, and I will never do it again.

Why not do it again?

Because I could not move my eyebrows, and I have very expressive eyebrows. I had a job starting. I was going to act in something two months from then, and I was just terrified, what if I can't do it? Because what happens is if you got to make the faces, you stop feeling those things as well. Yeah, they work both directions. That is really... I mean, I've gotten microneedling. I'm not a fucking monster. I want to make this clear. I don't have jaw implants. I guess I'll take it as a compliment.

You and I are in the exact same situation, which is when I saw your standup special and I saw that you addressed all this, I was like, Oh, my God. I love that this is happening. You're doing it in public. I've had these fantasies. Do I try to address a lot of this stuff you address in this standup special?

You get some, not to When you get into it, you get some real unfair nonsense sometimes.

Well, thank you.

I do. You should get into it.

I really do feel that.

Okay, well, great. But I will acknowledge I'll be watching with my children, like Parenthood, we watch with them. I'm going, Oh, my God, dude, I look so different. It looks like I got some jaw implant or something. There's something about your neck getting thicker. It changes your whole- It really does.

Body fat goes down. I think that just changes the shape of your face. I had a friend today send me a picture of us together from 12 years ago, and I was like, I look like a child.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Muscles. They can't hurt you. They're decorative, which is totally true. These muscles are decorative. They haven't done an honest day's work in their life. You've used them for nothing. I've used them for nothing except moving weight up and down 10 times. That is all they can do. Yeah. Have you ever had the thought over the last six years or something, when I add up how many hours I've spent exercising, I have to admit I could have got a PhD in something. It's the most time I've committed to anything other than work.

Wow. For me, it's going to be video games, then work, then working out. Probably, yeah. But I work out still every day. I love it. I don't know how not to work out. If I'm stressed, I had a rough day three days ago and I was like, I'm going to go work out because I cannot be around human beings right now.

I'm You're certain I will feel at least marginally better than I currently do if I go do that thing.

100%. The only things that I know that I can do physically that make me feel better every single time, working on and meditating. Sometimes it completely turns the day around. Sometimes it just helps three degrees, but it always 100% of the time helps.

Okay, we just got into this. Like three episodes ago. It was so timely that I saw your standup because I was saying to Monica, it's really hard to evaluate yourself from inside your own eyes, right? Of course. But there are moments where I either see a picture or I see another dude that I can somehow acknowledge that's my exact size. And I go, Oh, I'm too big. I might look stupid. But then I go, But I'm not going to change because this is the result of this thing I have to do or I want to do or gives me however much comfort, something about it. These are now just the results. I was aiming for something for a while, but then the thing happened, and now it is a confusing experience. Do you have that?

I do. I think the way people see me is not how I see myself. When When I started doing standup, again, Emily was like, The biggest, weirdest thing for you is going to be people experience it differently on stage. The shit you used to do, you can't really do anymore. So when I was skinny and I would do fake arrogance, and now I can't do fake arrogance on stage because it comes off as real arrogance. I can play with that because I do feel like I'm very self-aware about this. I did have a casting director recently pull me aside and go, You got to bring this down because it does limit.

Bring down the muscles?

Yeah. How did you take that? What that's how it's sprung off from there?

Also, is it racist?

Well, I mean, how much time you got?

I think there's some element of that.

It's weird because there was some of that reaction to me getting buff, and I can't not think that that was an aspect of it, that stay in your lane thing. That's not what we want from you thing. I don't know. I can't guess to it, but it just feels like that's maybe a part of it. My reaction to the casting director saying that to me was at At first it was panic. One, I was like, Have I missed out on parts because of this? I can think of one situation where I did. But I get so much out of it. I have started—this was about a month ago—trying to work out differently because I do need it. It's not doing cardio instead because the lifting of heavy weights does something for me. Lifting big heavy things affects me, makes me feel my body differently, and I enjoy that feeling too much.

I'll argue because I do both. If I go hike six miles, I don't, for the rest of the day, have this great feeling in my body. I have a tired feeling. My back's a little sore. When I have a great workout, I feel the fucking Schwarzenegger pump.

I was just going to say the arm's Schwarzenegger pump. The pump is better than sex.

It is like this for all day long. You feel it.

For everything to feel a little tight. Yeah, I love it.

I'm addicted to it.

Yeah, it's just the right amount. When you do a big workout in the next day, you got the doms, you're like, Oh, yeah. Last time we talked about Rabdo, oh, that. That's the dream.

I've convinced myself I had it a couple of times.

I always think I have it, and I'm not working on it.

I think I have it. My favorite feeling, I don't know how you're listening to this, laying on a bench with a weight above my body that's like, if I lose focus and drop this, I am going to the hospital. It forces me to get out of my body. I'm not thinking about my problems or the thing I said wrong at the party or whether this thing is going to get picked up or how that audition, whatever it is. I I have to respect this weight right now because if I don't, I'm going to-It makes you present. Yeah. Exactly, which for a lot of us is a big challenge. That's what I get the most out of it is that I'm really right there staring at this thing.

Same with meditation. It is the same thing. It's giving you presence.

You should get into motorcycle racing. That, too, does that same thing. If you think about what you have to do tomorrow, you're going to go off the track.

That's too scary.

Okay, we'll work on that.

That's one step too far.

I'm going to add one thing, so I relate to all that. Then the other thing I do like about it and why I I don't want to change my workout is so much of your life is so subjective, and these are just straight numbers. It's like, okay, I do 15 sets of this weight, and when I can't, I know I've declined. When I exceed that or it's easier, it's an objective evaluation of myself Every single day.

That's such a huge part of it. All through the pandemic, the only way I could progress was in the gym. Nothing else was moving, but I would be like, I could lift this weight five times today. Last week, I could only lift it four times. It's really being like, Oh, I have made progress in this thing, and it is verifiable and objective. That's a big part of it. It is. Just the feeling of doing something that you didn't think you were capable of doing. I think a lot of us limit ourselves all the time with like, I could do that, I can't do that. By the way, I love Mahru coffee. Really good coffee. We love it.

We love it here.

It's really good. I used to live right by it. Adhd.

No.

I bet a little bit. I feel it a little bit. We can't get up this. I can't. A little bit.

I'm sorry, I said it.

But we limit ourselves more than I think a lot of times the situation limits us or our environment limits us. I think just being able to go past what you conceive to be your limits in any aspect of your life helps you do that in other aspects of your life.

I agree.

Then it just builds this sustained confidence. Well, we'll get into all the minutiae of it.

I also have this thing. This is going to sound very arrogant. When I'm really feeling myself, I like just how I look in the mirror.

I just like it.

I like that, too. To your point, I put all these limits on myself. I was like, all through my 20s, I was like, well, genetically, I don't have a six-pack. Some guys have them, which is true. There were kids in my school that just were jacked.

Fifteen-year-olds with six-packs, for sure.

Because I didn't have that just out of the case with no effort, I decided I genetically wasn't capable of that. That's one cool reward. It's like, Oh, I'm capable of more things. But moving through the world as a dude with muscles, the reaction from other dudes is almost Almost universal, and I love it. I love that men touch my arm and they squeeze me.

I just love it. This is so funny because I was telling Emily about this. I was like, Guys will comment on my body all the time, and she's like, They're hitting on me. I'm like, They're not hitting on me. They're just commenting on my body. Then we were in New York for a few months. You're out and about on the streets with more people. She saw it happen like 35 times where just obviously, guys who are not hitting on me, commenting on very specific parts of my body. It's so primitive. At the gym with dudes is the only time men can be physically intimate with other men. Talking about, Man, look at your quads. Like spotting someone when they're squatting.

You're basically butt-fucking him.

Exactly. It's the only time. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's like a standing spoon. It's the only time men feel comfortable being physically intimate with other men.

Unless they're wrestling or some other sports. All sports, in a sense, are homoerotic. We're so starved for any affection.

You are. What would happen if that got cured for all men? That it was like, It's fine. You guys can just touch each other and hug and be affectionate. So much would be fixed.

You're totally right. Of course, I've been married almost 20 years, but people were like, Did you get more attention from girls when you got buff? I was like, No, more from guys.

Yes, I haven't seen any girls Zero change in how women react.

No, it's just for each other.

I actually have the opposite question. Did Emily feel like we got to talk about this? Because Dax did a show with his best friend, Aaron, and I was on it, and someone wrote in and said, My My partner, my husband, is starting to get really, really, really buff and going to the gym all the time and drinking protein shakes and doing all this, and I'm uncomfortable with it.

Well, one thing I want to ask is, was this woman upset about how buff he was getting or how much time and energy he was devoting to getting buff? Both.

That's what we debated. So it was just a write-in. So we couldn't ask any follow-up questions?

Because the obsession I get being like, Hey, this is too much.

Well, that was my point. Is he not available for his duties as father, as a husband, as anything? If that's an issue, then that's obvious. If it's, I don't know this person. I'm afraid that this new version of them isn't going to love me. I can relate to that and I have a lot of sympathy for that. But there's so many reasons.

For Emily, she did say she's like, If we went on a first date and you were this buff, I think there was something really wrong with you. Just because she knows me and has known me for over a decade that this happened, she was like, That's not going to come out. I really fucking agree. It's so green, dude. What are you drinking? Straight coral fill?

It's 22 ounces of wee grass.

We're just converting sunlight into food.

It's a yummy matcha.

I don't like matcha. It feels like falling face first on the ground. Kamal is getting too much attention.

People think it's grass.

I think it tastes like gross grass.

Everyone's talking about Kumal's muscles and not Dax's.

He's getting upset. What was that bad of an interview? It was like, every time it was about you guys, I just set myself on fire.

Oh my gosh. No, but this is interesting, I think.

Emily understood that it meant since I was a little kid, I wanted to be a certain way, and I wasn't. And now I get to be the way I wanted to be. And there's a lot to unpack there. But she always trusted me to go on whatever journey I wanted. Now, there are times where she's like, I like the way you look right now. And it's generally not the biggest and most cut I've been. It's almost never that. It's like when I'm a little bit softer, she's like, I think to me this is the ideal male physique that I want. And that's how I know it's time to diet.

That's my cue to immediately.

I'm not trying I'm trying to impress you, honey. I'm trying to impress other men. I already got you.

I just wonder when you're allowed to say to your partner, this is a bigger question. You marry someone or you fall in love with someone, and then they change. People change over Of course. We all do. And is it okay to say, You know what? I don't like it.

How would you feel about that if someone didn't like their partner gaining weight or something?

Exactly. No, I'm including all of you.

Now, that's very tricky.

How do you do it? Is it allowed if you're hearing someone say gaining weight, you'd be like, Absolutely not. They're not allowed to say that. They have to accept you.

But what's funny is both attempts to address that would be veiled under the same thing, which would be health.

Sure. Concerned trolling. Yeah.

Is that what it's called? Concerned trolling?

It's called concerned trolling. We're like, Are you okay? You're looking a little skinny or whatever. Internet is full of it. Interesting.

I've heard people try to act like what I'm doing is somehow not healthy.

Obviously, there's a way to take it where it's not healthy, but you look very healthy. Nothing about you is like, Oh, I'm concerned for this person. The one thing that I do think about and struggle with as public figures is when I was a little kid and I would see buff men, it would upset me that I didn't look like that. Now am I contributing to men feeling bad about themselves, little teenage boys feeling bad about themselves? Because the decision I made was very personal. But I do have to acknowledge the fact that as a public figure, I am out there and people do see, you Google me, the first five pictures are all shirtless. Is that making someone feel bad about themselves?

That's interesting.

Can I counter that?

Sure, please.

You're a brilliant improv artist. You're a hysterical comedian. If someone's watching you do comedy that aspires to do comedy and can't do it as good as you and they feel like shit, should you stop being really funny? I mean, literally, should you limit your potential in any domain because it might make someone else feel bad Too funny. No. Should you write less good if you're a fucking author? No, that's crazy. You can't diminish your own self out of fear of what the follow-up might be. You might also inspire, that might be 10% of the reaction, and 90% of people might go on a health journey That makes them live 10 years longer.

I've had a lot of people say that. For me, I always say, just be healthy, of course, and just be the version of you that you can like. Often, it doesn't have to do anything with how you look or whatever. Obviously, be healthy, that's good. But learning to love yourself, I think, is more important than anything. For me, sadly, I have been on this journey of being like, I like myself. And part of that has had to do with my body transformation. It's a little unavoidable, and I wish it wasn't part of it, but I know it is.

Well, listen, you're exacting control and outcome on a world that is very hard to exact control and outcome. It's confidence. It's very satisfying.

I have a real control thing. I I have an obsessive personality, and I'm very lucky in that I know it just doesn't go towards stuff that would ruin my life. You're not an addicty. Not an addicty, but I feel it when I'm gambling. I feel that- The tiger. I have to be very careful gambling. I I don't really play. Sometimes I don't really play sports, but if I'm in any competitive situation, I start to have that come out. You know where it gets awkward? Like, Hey, dude, we're just playing a fucking board game.

How are you at your video games? Are you yelling at people on the headsets and stuff? No. Are you anonymous when you play?

Do you play-I don't play online anymore. You don't? Okay. I only play with friends, and I play with Emily. Emily and I play together. And with Emily, I've learned to...

Because she's like-Not be an asshole.

You cannot talk to me like that. We are still married.

Can you think of something you said to her at one point in the heat of a video game battle.

Whenever I go, You got us, she's like, You can't say you got out of me anymore. Honey, you got us. We're just playing this game right now. She's very good, and we can hang, but sometimes we play when we're high. Yeah, sure. She'll be Where are you? I'm like, If you hit up on the controller, you got to know by now. She's like, Got to stop saying got to. I'm like, Honey, we've been playing this game for three fucking months.

You're exasperated.

Yeah, I do get that.

Short views.

It's just an intense situation. Sure, I get it. The stakes are high. I'm trying to save the fucking planet right now. That's right. I need you to know how to look up the map. Yeah.

The game isn't called get groceries. Exactly. It's called a duty.

Yeah, it's called a duty, man. We're saving the world from the right now. I can't teach you how to unfold your map every five minutes.

Okay, so in my dream world of the structure of this, I'd love to explore how we feel about it. Then I want to confront how other people feel as its own little piece.

I love that.

But to continue with it a little bit, because this takes up a lot of my thought, and I love checking in with you.

I love talking to you about this because very few people want to get into it. Yeah.

Sandler one time told me, and I'll never forget it, I'd gotten in really good shape for this movie 20 years ago with Kristen cold, went in Rome, I played an underwear model, and I had gotten in good shape. And he came up to me, he's like, Buff isn't funny, buddy. Just remember. I was like, God, right? And then we all know carrot top as a trope.

I've heard that a lot. I disagree with it.

But what is carrot top as a trope?

He's a for real bodybuilder. Oh, I didn't know that.

He looks jacked.

And people bring him up constantly like, Don't be a carrot topper. You just hear carrot top a lot.

Yeah, I know. You hear carrot top a lot from many reasons. I've never heard about Caratop more. I'm saying to person, not anything about Caratop, do you think Caratop got less funny when he got buff, or did you just never think Caratop was funny? There you go.

Yeah. What do you think of that, Mariah?

How's that?

We can almost see his penis.

There's a lot to this sac.

I was going to say his slacks are- quite low.

They could come up a little bit. They could come up a. I don't need to know that the carpet matches the drape.

The mom's pubis is on full display. But I understand he wanted to show off the arrows, but he got carried away. Now, here's the thing.

The arrows.

First of all, very nice body. It's not for me because, yes, it's the hugging the corner of the building thing, again. But I think it's nice. Now, looking at this for the first time, I can understand what they mean when they say, How can that guy be funny? It's because whoever created this body, not God, who did this to themselves, is taking things very seriously. You have to take life very seriously to look like that.

That's an interesting point, and that's the only good point I've heard about this exact thing. However, John cena is very, very funny. He is super jacked. I think you can take certain parts of yourself seriously and not other parts. I truly don't think I'm less funny because I'm buff, because I think you have to always have a level of self-awareness. He has to understand that that's a little bit ridiculous. A lot. Yeah. When I put my pictures out, I understood that it was a little bit ridiculous. I understand it's a little bit ridiculous that I am Jack now. I think you have to have that level of awareness. It's when you take yourself too seriously, I think that is the death of comedy. I think the other thing that is the death of comedy is people wanting to be cool. Exactly. Comedians can be cool, but someone who wants to be cool and a comedian, I don't have any time for that.

I will say, though, one aspect that is true is generally, comedy works best when you are put upon.

Sure. Low status.

Exactly. So if Kare top is stand there like that, and then his boss is denigrating him, and he's a foot and a half shorter and is a mess, you don't give a fuck. You're like, Oh, if he wanted, he'd crush him.

You know what? Did you watch Peacemaker? Not to go back to John Cina again. Yes. He is the Jackus guy in there. He's like a superhero, but he is put upon the whole time.

That's true, but it required people with super powers to outstatus him in a way. And he's so dumb. His stupidity Heady is his Achilles.

Oh, yeah.

That helped.

So, yes, we could play Big Dumb Idiots, like DCab. I'd love it. It would be really fun to play Big Dumb Idiot.

I just don't think... I mean, you could, but you'd really have to suspend your disbelief. That's another... I mean, we know you're not a Big Dumb Idiot.

Are you saying John cena is a Big Dumb Idiot?

No, I love John.

I love John Cina.

Great guess. Go check out that episode.

So talented.

You played a lot of Dumb Idiots at the beginning of your career.

Yeah, you're very good at it. I mean, idiocracy That's such a great performance. You're a real dumb.

You're a real dumb idiot. You're a baby mama. You played a lot of them.

I specialize in dummies, yeah.

But I bet now- It'd be less fun. No, I bet it would be harder because you now have shown yourself as your real self that is smart. You have comedy specials that are smart. People know you as smart. It might be hard to be like, he's acting dumb.

I think acting dumb is a difficult thing. A few people who are smart can do Adam Sandler is one of them. He's obviously very smart. Did you guys see Jay Kelly?

Not yet.

No. He's so good in it. Really? Yeah, and not a dumb idiot at all. If you know him, he's not a dumb idiot at all. But he's good at playing dumb idiot. Have you guys seen this movie called Twinless? No. It's a small movie came out this year. This actor, director, writer, wrote it, stars in it, and Dylan O'Brien, do you guys know who Dylan O'Brien is? No. Dylan O'Brien is a phenomenal actor. If you look him up, you'd be like, Oh, that guy. He's like, You know young guy? He's like, 30. Very smart guy. Always plays smart guys. He plays a a dumb guy in this, and it's an incredible performance. He's subtly dumb. He's not comedy dumb. He's just dumb in ways people that you know. I was talking to him about it. I was like, How are you able to do this? Because that is something I think about a lot. I'd love to play a dumb guy. It's a very tricky thing to be able to do. What was your trick to doing it?

I think the key is you have to think you're much smarter than everyone you're talking to.

Interesting.

You have to be condescending as a dumb guy. Frito is like, Are you stupid? He thought everyone was stupid, and then he was a genius.

That's a good- It's the Dunning-Krooger effect.

It is. Yes. Oh, that's funny. That's a good half.

The less you know, the more you think you know. It's like what they say, to act drunk, you have to try and act sober.

Which that one alludes me a little bit. I've had to play drunk, and I hate it.

I've played drunk a few times, and I think one of the keys I learned was, what drunk is this? Is it angry drunk? Is it happy drunk? Is it stupid drunk? Then you lean into that. If it's happy, you lean into the happy beyond any reasonable thing. You know who does a really good job? Evan Peters. Is he in Mayor of Easttown?

Oh, I love that show. Is that the show he was in?

There's a show where he plays drunk in one scene where he hits on his partner, and it's a really remarkable scene because he goes through every drunk person, which is the drunk person who's down on themselves, the drunk person who has too much confidence, the drunk person who's too sad, too sappy.

Emotional, yes.

Yes. All in one scene, you see him do all those different kinds of drugs, and it's a really, really great performance. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

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That's the thing I've learned in my relationship with Emily is that all the stuff that I hide from her, I'm sad, I'm scared, often the anxiety of starting a new job, right? That was just mine. If I say it out loud, it makes it real. I say it to her, and it actually takes its power away. That's the biggest thing I've learned. One, I do it as a way of apology Hey, I'm in a weird place. I'm starting this job on Tuesday, and I'm a little bit nervous to walk.

Pretty certain they fucked up by casting me. That's where I'm feeling today.

All I have to do is get to rap before they find out. Every set I go to, I think of Eric Stoltz getting fired from Back to the Future. That dude shot six weeks. He shot six weeks, and then they fucking fired him. And he's collecting his boss as he's walking out. Everybody else has a job. The grip has a job. You're the only one who doesn't have a job.

200 people.

You're the main guy, and you're the only one who doesn't have a job.

No, that's rough. And good for him, the fact that he can come back and be in Pulp Fiction and be like, fucking so stellar.

Yeah.

Okay, now let's talk about the reaction.

So what happened was I We'll talk about this in the specials, but do you know Michael Rosenbaum? Do you guys know him? I know him very, very, very well. I did his podcast, and we talked about me.

That's where it all came from, his Rosenbaum?

Yeah, it came from Rosenbaum's podcast, and he felt so bad about it. I was like, Dude, Honestly, this is a fucking gift. Thank you. I know how to end my special now. I didn't know. It all started from that. What happened?

What did you say? He was talking about the heartbreak of Eternals and it sending him to therapy.

There was a big reaction, backlash. I understand them saying the privilege of the bad reviews send you to therapy. I talk about 4, 15 minutes.

Oh my God.

It was a lot. It's also, men feel weird about going to therapy. There's a lot wrapped up in it. I'll give you all the gory details. I put those pictures out December of 2019 while I was shooting Eternals. I was going into Christmas. We were going to shoot till February, but I was like, I don't know, this might be the only time I look like this. I got two weeks off and pastries in London are really fucking good. I don't know if I'm ever going to look like this. I asked the trainer and I was like, Hey, get some baby oil. I'll get a razor. Let's get these pictures going. Because I don't know if I'm ever going to look like this.

It could be the last time of your entire life.

Yeah. I wanted these pictures. I did it. I put the pictures out. Initially, the response was really good. But then what happened was in 2020, the pandemic happened in March. My wife and I took it very seriously. We didn't leave the house. She's got an immune condition. So I was in a real bad place. Stills? Adult onset, Stills disease. And now she's been diagnosed with another thing, which turns out is probably a combination of those two. A lot of things we're finding out, not to this is a whole ADHD. We're finding out a lot about autoimmune diseases because of research into HIV. Because when you have HIV and your immune system starts fucking up. So now there's a lot of research into this, and there's a lot of therapies for this that are way better. So Emily's on a new medication that has changed our lives. So we're in all the time. And on Christmas, we got this gingerbread house. We made it. It's just a picture of me sitting next to a gingerbread house that my wife took, and we hadn't seen a human being in a long time. Now it's January 2021. I think part of what happened is people were like, Well, 2020 sucks, 2020 sucks.

2021 would be better. Now we're in 2021 and there's no vaccine in sight. We still can't leave the fucking house. I think Particularly January 2021, people were in a real fucking place and spraying it everywhere. I think I was one of the victims of this. I was watching The Crow with Brandon Lee, RIP. I'd taken an edible. I was high out of my mind watching this movie that I used to love as a watching it now being like, Do I still love it? And a friend of mine texted me. He's like, Hey, I'm so sorry about what's going on online.

First of all, public service announcement to all friends. Never do that. No.

Okay, so you posted this picture.

I posted this picture a few weeks before. So my friend texted me. I was like, What are you talking about? And he was like, Oh, you don't know? So I go on Twitter and there are literally 10,000 responses. And it's that picture of me, and I'm just smiling with the thing, I'm high. And you could see the way I'm sitting. I just look like I have a big jawline. And it's just people making fun of my appearance. Oh, literally 10,000 comments. It's so hard. It fucking destroyed me because as a kid growing up, I was very insecure about my looks. I've done all this work to move away from that. And this made me feel like a little kid. I'm watching this movie high out of my mind, and this is happening. And there were two full days of it trending on Twitter. And it was a big thing that people were just happy dunking on, the way I looked physically. Gifs and memes were going around and all this stuff. Again, in the grand scheme of things, probably not a huge thing, but I was very aware of it. I would tell Emily every day, I would check in with her.

I was like, I'm not going to go on Twitter. I'd be like, Is it still happening? She's like, Yeah, it's still happening. It's still happening? Yeah, it's still happening. I remember it took two full days of that because I think people were frustrated and needed to take it out. That started with that one specific picture, and then it went on to pictures of me being buff.

It set off a cottage industry.

It set off a cottage industry calling me Grotesk and Monstrous. I talk about all this in this special now. That was the big backlash, January 2021. I think all these things, it has more to do with what they're going through than what I'm going through. But I really felt very singled out and attacked for that. Again, people have much bigger problems than this, but for me, it was a pretty intense thing. That was the backlash to my transformation that ended up happening a little bit over a year after the initial pictures came out.

Interesting. You were also dealing, I'm sure, with... Had Eternals come out yet? No. At least you have that positive thing in your mind Dude. That's basically your safety net during all this, right?

Eternals kept me going all through pandemic where I was like, wait for this fucking thing to come out, guys.

I'll be laughing. We'll talk about this body in three months.

A hundred % the entire time I was like, Wait till this comes out. And part of that, it's totally my fault. I'd put too much into this thing that I should not have put anything into. I had a great time making that movie.

Meaning you put too many expectations.

Too many expectations. It's going to change my career.

We've had so many of the same moments. It's really wild. It's really wild thinking, you're from Pakistan, saw a guy get stabbed to death in the street when you were a kid. Shot. Shot, sorry. Seemingly, there'd be no parallels. But I similarly had directed Chips.

It tested through the roof.

They commissioned a sequel before it came out to write it.

Dude. It was you and Michael Penia? Yeah. He's so good.

I got hired immediately by Warner Brothers to take over Scooby-Doo. I'm getting asked to come fix some scripts and maybe direct another thing. I go, The next 10 years of my life, I'm going to be writing and directing. I'm positive of that for a year and a half. To the degree that's in my DNA that my identity is I'm a writer-director, and I'm going to do this for the next decade. Even greedily, I'm like, Yeah, I'm not I get this on this and this on this. I've modeled out how much money I'm going to make in the next 10 years.

This is exactly how I was.

In one Friday, I find out the 10-year game plan is gone.

Did that movie not do well? No.

Well, certainly, the sequel is not getting made. All these other things and meanings, they just shrivel up.

What we both did was build up this thing.

Because we want safety.

It is truly a devastating experience.

It's my fault. I'm taking full responsibility. No one should feel bad for me, but I did plan out my entire life based on something, and that really changed on a Friday afternoon, which I think a lot of people suffer setbacks, but they're pretty dramatic in our business.

That is pretty dramatic because people's lives change overnight.

You had signed on to do six Marvel movies.

I'd signed on to do six Marvel movies, a video game in a theme park.

So of course, you thought the next decade of your life was that.

I was like, the next decade of my life, I'm going to be doing those movies. And then between, one for you, one for me, I'll do like little Indies.

So people think when they hear that, they understand and they think like, oh, boo, who? You won't have that thing. But they're missing. The pain and hurt is my safety just vanished. It's not about being famous or whatever. It's just like, I knew what I was going to do for 10 years as if I were a physician that knew I could do my job for the next 10 years. And I found out I can't.

Especially for us, it's tricky. One, we're getting to live our dreams, and suddenly our dreams are getting bigger and now I'm going to get to do this. It's self-serving, but it really is. You're like, The purpose of my life is to make stuff, and now I'm going to get to do it. How fucking exciting. And it happens with comedy, guys, I think, specifically where you hit and then you get a window, right? And sometimes that window closes, and when that window closes, you don't know if it's opening up again. It happens to actress, too. I mean, look at Brandon Frazier. So many years, he did it, and then he won a fucking Oscar.

Yeah, but that's rare.

But that's why we love it so much because it is so brutal, and you generally get shown the door never reopens.

Exactly. It is brutal. I mean, we've picked a very difficult business to be in and a very vulnerable. You're naked. If you write something, you direct something, you put it out there, you're like, here, this is the inside of my body. What will you do with it? And people are like, We don't like it. We will stab your spleen.

Well, it's also people forget that actors are very fragile. It's actually makes an actor good.

It's a prerequisite.

We're very sensitive.

So sensitive. And it's a part of what makes acting doable. But then you become famous and people don't give a fuck.

No, they don't. And they think it's okay to tear you down. Whatever, I I understand.

I think we're coming from the same place. I don't want one person to feel bad for me.

No. You cannot feel bad for someone, but you also don't have to be a part of hurting them.

But that's become part of it now is this dunk session that goes on where people get very excited. Again, boohoo, actors. But it is interesting. You're exactly right. Most actors are very sensitive. It took me years to understand that. And it wasn't until a few years ago that I was like, I was a sensitive 14-year-old, and now I'm a sensitive 40-whatever-year-old. Yeah, exactly.

Yes.

The only question mark I had when I heard the story is, Emily was a practicing therapist for nine years or something. No, no, no. Six years?

Yeah, I would say for six years.

She didn't Chicago, she didn't New York. That's it.

Okay. North Carolina, then Chicago, then New York.

Okay, great. But you were married to a therapist.

Yeah, in the beginning.

So the notion that it took you so long.

It was after Eternals came out.

And you're like, I'm never going to work again.

It wasn't even really that. It wasn't external circumstance. I understood it's my reaction to the external circumstance that's fucking me up. And I'm hurting myself by thinking the same thing over and over and over and over. I remember being on this flight. This might be too much information, but we're on a flight because we're doing a world press tour for Eternals. Being on this flight in first class, laying in the bed I've got WiFi, and I'm just laying there refreshing rotten tomatoes over. I remember in that moment being like, This is not good for me. This is not healthy. This is horrible. By all accounts, I'm in this awesome bed. I just ate a full three course meal on a fucking airplane, flying to London. You've made yourself miserable. This is the most miserable I've ever been.

You took this chance to feel great, and you made yourself miserable. What's great is even though you're not an addict, you've experienced what it's like when you're driving to the dealer's house and you're about to relapse.

Which is like, this is a bad idea.

I know exactly the feeling you're talking about before you've made the mistake where you know you're about to- But you're in route to do it. Wow. What is that like? Can I ask you, what is that like? Because I think I know that feeling.

Yes. The frontal lobe is going, don't do this. It's going to end in four days, the wreckage. Then there's this body surge of endorphins, I guess emanating from your reptilian brain. That's just like, it's giving you a little hit of what's going to It's this battle between this very visceral feeling and then this intellectual debate. For me, just that surge of endorphins wins. You go, I'm going to be really disappointed myself, but I also in 15 minutes, I'm not going to give a fuck about that disappointment.

For a very short period of time. Exactly.

No, it all... Yeah, it never works.

That's where the shame comes in after.

Because you knew better.

Yeah, you're like, I knew this was going to happen, and I still did it, and I can't stop.

That is so powerlessness. When you're driving to the dealers and you're like, I know I shouldn't do this, but you're going, were you ever able to turn around?

I have accomplished that maybe three or four times. It's been more that I'm at the bar. I'm already there. I'm with friends. You're at the bar. I'm at the bar and I decide, You know what? There's no way I'm going to go through every Christmas without getting buzzed again. I make these really over-the-top declarations. Am I really going to live the rest of my life without getting buzzed at a bar at Christmas with the Christmas lights. It's like this is some essential right of mine that's been taken. Then I've started to build the case and I have been able to leave there. But if I've gotten in my car and I'm in route to the dealer, I'm going to get there. You're going there.

It's already decided.

It's getting in the car.

Oh, my God. That is really interesting.

When you open up the phone, you're already in the car on the way.

But it's weird because it's a negative feeling, but it does feel like a certain self-harmed that I had gotten addicted to. There was an addiction to feeling that hurt, that anger at myself and everyone around me. It is like a very living feeling. It's a very alive feeling.

Because Now, this is another fun thing that comes from AA, which is self-aggrandizement and self-pity are the exact same sides of two coins.

Could not agree more.

What feels like, Oh, poor me, is really indulgent and self-aggrandizing. It's like, A, you're too important in the No one gives a fuck about your movie. No one knows. You've elevated all this stuff. That was helpful for me to connect like, Well, I would never be self-aggrandizing. I'm too ashamed to do that. I'll hide that even if I think that. But for some reason, I'll explore self-pity and victimhood. And once I connected, those are the same fucking thing, bro. I was able to largely curb the self-pity cycle.

After all that stuff and going through therapy, and I talk about this in the special, for me, the biggest project of the last few years has been trying to divorce my experience of making something the result, from the reaction to it. Ideally, I walk off set and never think about it again. Now it's fucking impossible because a year and a half from now, you got to be doing interviews talking about this thing. My standard special is not that because I really feel like I've made that. I fully control it. I live and die by it. With this, I'm living, dying by other people's mistakes as well. I've been doing work to cut off from that, but, and now this is going to sound like me showing off. A couple of years ago, I got nominated for an Emmy, and the amount of happy that it made me, it just happened to be with my I had not expected it at all. I woke up in the morning at 11: 00 in New Jersey at my parents house in my pajamas about to eat a delicious breakfast. I have 100 text messages on my phone, and I'm like, Guys, I just got an Emmy.

The amount that it made me happy, I was like, Oh, I'm still stuck in this. It's still a trap. I mean, all day I was just replaying. This is so embarrassing. The moment when I saw I'm replaying, scrolling, I'm replaying saying it to my parents, and I understood I'm still stuck in that same fucking thing.

That is probably the hardest part of being healthy about this experience, in my opinion, is turning down the praise. You can't take the praise and turn down the negative. You either have to turn the whole thing off.

And turning it off is impossible. I think you have to turn the volume down the best you can.

I don't I don't know if Jona would mind me saying this, but I was texting Jona about us about to have Phil Stutz on his therapist, and we were going to have him on because I saw the doc, and I was so moved by the doc. Yeah, I saw the doc. And I sent him this text going like, Fuck, dude, that moment where you have the of yourself, your shadow, this little kid, and Stutz is like, he wants you to bring him along on this fun ride. And I was like, oh, my God. So I was texting with him, and I was detecting this reservation from his side about this praise I was giving. And then he just said it, and I thought it was so fucking cool. He's like, Dude, I love this. Weirdly, this is as bad for me as you saying- Very good self-awareness. Yes. And I'm like, Dude, I strive to turn down praise when I don't see it in the immediate future.

It's so true. He's exactly right. It's the same thing. But you know what's hard in our business, praise or bad reviews? It's not just how we deal with it. It does affect our careers. It really does have a practical impact. I make a movie, it makes money. Suddenly, I get to do more movies. I make a movie, gets bad reviews, doesn't make money. Windows starts closing. So that's the hard thing for me to reconcile that it's not just my reaction to it. My life is practically affected by the reaction. Absolutely.

You're forgetting that you're capable of making your own stuff. You're actually in a rare group that's capable of making their own stuff that can do shows. You can get back to you in control, and you should do that maybe more.

100%. I was talking to Mike Berbigly, and I was like, you and I went in a way in completely opposite paths. He had his first movie that was a big success, and he was like, I'm just going to keep doing this. And I went and started doing other people's stuff. Yeah.

Right. But I will say, too, I think the division in my head has to be, yes, one is a practical outcome of what will be my income and what will be my opportunity. And that's true. That needs to be observed. But the stuff that's hurting me and making me ruminate is, am I lovable if I'm a failure? Am I lovable if I'm not spectacular? Am I lovable if I'm not funny? Am I lovable if I'm in bad shape? Am I lovable? Am I worthy of your attention and being seen by you if I'm not spectacular? Just talk to my mom this morning about this. I'm like, That's my hurdle. I don't think I'm worth observing unless I'm spectacular.

I think that's so true. I think the biggest thing we have to learn is that you inherently are worthy of love. It's so hard to believe.

It's everyone's hurdle. It is. It's not just you or you or actors. Everyone is doing everything they can to get the most love.

You are worthy of love.

Regardless. You don't need to be spectacular.

I don't know. I don't know.

I'm not That's the whole sentence, man. I know. You are worthy of love, period. I'm only now learning that I need to lean into the fear. I've all my life been running away from pain and running away from fear and working out taught me, I got to chase the pain, and now I'm realizing I got to chase the fear. The things that scare me are the things I need to do.

Okay, now I want to theorize because I had some takeaways. Again, I can't put too much of a point on the fact that I really loved your special.

Oh, thanks, buddy.

It's called Night Thoughts. And boy, did you describe three of my seven nights a week of sleep? Monica has heard it ad nauseam. I think I have no anxiety. I don't have waking anxiety in general. I go to bed, 3: 00 AM, time to fucking think about something I don't care about once I'm awake. Exactly. Can I give one joke of yours away? Because I think Monaco will love it. Sure, of course. He wakes up and he writes down his stupid night thoughts, and one of them is, why do white people get all colors of eyes and hair, and everybody else only gets black eyes and black hair?

That's a very fair thought.

Black people, Asian people, Hispanic people, we just get black eyes and black hair.

I know.

It is crazy when you point it out. It's crazy.

What is going on? I hate it.

It's not fair. It's just adding to the unfairness. It's insane.

Now I'm going to be thinking about that.

Sorry. That joke has gotten a weird reaction a couple of times. Oh, has? Yeah, like the comedy store, somebody got angry at me and they got kicked out. Really? Everybody needs to relax.

Did a white person get mad? Yeah, sure. Of course.

Sure. Sure, it was a white person. What does Joyce say?

The caucacity. Yeah. Like the audacity of Caucasians. The caucacity. What was his objection?

He was saying that's racist. I was like, No. He was very drunk.

He was playing in that scene. He was like, Yeah, this is the racist. He was drunk.

This is the night. That's right.

This is the night when I'm drunk, I got racist. This is late in the night.

And he probably regrett it. I don't know if he regrett it. Later, the security guy who kicked him out was like, he was trying to connect to me, but like, That guy's fucking racist, right? Oh, Oh my God. He was like, No, get the fuck out. The security guy was white. Oh, wow. So glad you watched it.

Oh, I loved it. When you get into the reaction, you synthesize the reaction into five really common threads that people were barking at you, I'm lying about. I've given this a ton of thought because I have a different version of it unrelated to muscles, which is I've been with Kristen for 20 years, and there have been hundreds of articles about why is she with this guy. What? Really? List of top 10 hot girls with ugly guys. That is so disgusting. I've been dealing with that less now since the podcast. But for the first 12, 13 years we were together, there were hundreds of these lists of ugly guys with hot girls, and I'm always on it. The worst. My reaction was like, I am so hurt and insecure when you say that. Then I'm defensive and arrogant. I'm like, Go meet my other girlfriends. They've all been hot. Fuck you. I have this defensiveness. Yeah, sure. Then when I calm down, I really get into it. I'm like, You know what's so interesting? I think I know what's going on. It just beat into us in elementary school and in school, which is like, there's strata.

You're born into them. Someone shant to migrate north or south. It's disruptive to this whole system that we have been formatted in. I thought, because again, primarily girls aren't saying, christen's with this ugly guy. Guys are saying, christen's with this ugly guy.

They're threatened.

I think Shouldn't that be encouraging? Even if that's your conclusion, like this four got this 10, isn't that life affirming and positive? Doesn't that say you could achieve anything? I thought it would be comforting the dudes like me that are normally-I think it's the opposite.

I think that was some of the reaction to me getting buffed.

Thank you because I mapped on that. I get the muscles thing less than you do. I certainly see in the comments, dudes going so fucking roided out. Always, if I'm with Kristenristen in a photo, then the guys come out hard. This roided out motherfucker. For the record, I'm not on steroids. Unless you count testosterone as a steroid, which I guess maybe technically is. I am on Tessastron. Technically, yeah. But I'm not on the other great ones I'd love to be on. If I was going to die in a month, I would be on all of them. I didn't get it the same way You did. I think it's a little bit because I'm 6'2. Then maybe white. You guys were talking about that.

I do think that's part of it for me is obviously in Bollywood, guys are super Jack and it's fine. But here, it's like you're a nerd or you're like a pro.

What was that fucking incredible movie that took over Netflix I loved. Triple R. Those guys are fucking beefcakes.

When I went to my trainer, I was like, I want to look like this guy.

From Triple R?

No. This was a guy who's a big star still. His name is Hrithik Roshan. He's super Jack. He's a great actor. He's got an extra thumb. That's a thing a lot of Indian people have. No. Really? Yeah, I don't mean 40%, but it's like- Septodactilia? Is that what it's called? I think so. It's a little extra useless thumb. Yeah, six digits. Oh, wow. Three thumbs up. When he likes the movie, he can really communicate it. Okay, so really quick.

Now, we must acknowledge that we're guilty of the thing that hurts us, which is you and I know this guy's a huge star. He's jacked. Yeah, he's got an extra thumb. I don't mind saying that. This guy's an idol.

He's gorgeous, too. Yeah.

But that guy, should he ever come across this podcast, which he won't, he'll be hurt that we're talking on his third thumb. Or is it something he's super proud of?

I don't know.

Because he could give a shocker. He could give whatever a new shocker is.

Oh, my God.

Two in the pink.

He got four in the stink.

No, I knew this was... He didn't mean the shocker. I did.

Oh, you did? I just mispronounced it. Yeah, the shocker.

What's the other...

The shocker?

Yeah, that's what I thought you were also- No, I mean Yeah, two in the pink, one in the stink, and then four thumbs on the clitoris. Yeah, he probably wouldn't like this. Yeah, my guess is he wouldn't like this.

Or maybe he would. Anyways, often when I'm feeling really sad and self-pitting and hurt, I have to recognize I, too, do it. Do what? I talk about people in a way that I don't think would hurt their feelings because they're so high status, I don't think they would care. I know. We're wrong.

Genially have been trying to be better about it. If someone makes fun of, Oh, look at how much work this person got. I'm like, First of all, it's their fucking decision. What upsets me about what you said about you and Kristenristen together is these parasocial things where people think they know someone's relationship or how someone actually feels about someone. I think it's so unhealthy. You don't know me. You don't know my life. People will be like, couple goals or whatever. I'm like, you don't know what our life is. You don't know what my relationship with my wife is. You have no fucking idea. People build us up sometimes to be like, oh, this is...

You're a dreamy couple. I totally get couples goals.

People will say, if they ever break up, I'll stop believing in love. I'm like, don't fucking do that. That's too much pressure for one. I am not anything. We are truly nothing to you. This should not be any standard or anything. I mean, what they don't see is how much work we're doing behind the scene. I am absolutely in love with enemy. With Emily, my favorite enemy. You don't even know her name.

I said enemy. I love, Emily.

She's my friend of me. What they don't know is it's not always easy. It's very fulfilling and satisfying, but we got to keep working on it.

Two people coming together in any capacity. How is it happening?

I got friends who are in throuples now. I'm like, what are you doing? Do you guys know people who are in like- We watch couples therapy, and every time I watch it and there's a throuple or something, I'm like, guys, it's just too hard two people. Three, you're making it exponentially more complicated.

It is exponential. Yeah, it's like going from one kid to two.

Because it's each bearing and then all three of you together. We only got one way. This is like one way, two way, three ways, four ways.

We'll add also, Kristen and I share an identity if we are out at a dinner party. We're literally this one identity that plays off each other and has stories. It's like, what is this shared identity of this trouble when they come to your dinner party?

How could you not know if you're in a trouble, be like, You know what? I think this person loves that person a bit more than they love me. That's got to be true, right? I mean, how is it possible that everyone loves everyone equally?

Well, I believe that's possible because I have two kids.

That's different.

It is different. I don't know.

You made them. Yeah, you made them.

Now, if you're in a trouble with your kid, I'm going to move on.

No, let's talk about a thruple with my children.

I didn't mean you. I meant when my children are in a trouble. One of them is going to feel very left out.

Even that, you I just said the other day something like, I took my best girl to a concert, one of the kids, and I said, You can't say that. He said, I have two best girls. I said, No, no one wants to hear that. So yes, I do think in the Rupples, the love changes. It's like, we're close right now. Now we're close right now. But then the pain on the other person who's on the outside in that moment and trying to fight their way, that's too much.

I can't speak to a three-way. I've been in some three-ways in my That feels easier to navigate in a relationship.

How were those?

Well, what I can own up to.

I could not wait to bring it up.

I know. What I can own up to, and that is inevitably, I felt like, no, I wish it was just me and this person.

Oh, really Even in that, you got a best girl. Yeah.

Oh, they're best girls everywhere.

It's great. It's fun. It's exciting initially. Then just like, Oh, I like how that person kiss more. Could you take a break? I have two options in front of me. I enjoy kissing this one more. Yeah.

Also, they all have their own feelings about that as well. Yeah, sure. They're like, I like this person.

Both the girls are probably like, I hope this dude leaves.

Yeah.

Right. There's so much going on. It just seems very complex. It's all complex. Being a person is so complicated. Being a person is hard.

You know when in True Detective in first season, when Matthew McCona, he says, Consciousness was a mistake, I genuinely, truly believe that. I think it was a big fucking mistake.

A bug.

It is a bug. I really think, you think anybody intended all of this? This was not the end game. This is a big mistake.

The similarities is they just want to end in this thing because also, Monica has heard me say, I fucking hate an encore.

It drives me... Camel, it drives me...

Oh, my God. I love that. Who did you go see with your best girl? Sabrina Carpenter? Yeah. Did you go? Yeah, I went.

What day? I went on that. I think the first day on a Sunday.

We went Monday.

You went Monday? Yeah. Did you get arrested for being too hot?

No.

Me neither.

What an incredible show.

She She's so cool.

She's so great because she's really funny and she understands all that. So many take themselves too seriously, and she doesn't. This is a sad story, I guess, but we saw Prince at the Forum. He did a whole month and tickets were $20 no matter what. Parking was $40. He did eight fucking encore. Eight?

And we were like, I got to get home. You left.

And then he died. Yeah.

Good. Good for you. That's abusive.

Do you think maybe you killed him?

By leaving early?

Yeah. Cosmically,.

Yeah, he was like, I got to try more fentanyl or whatever it was for a fall. Let's not say that. He did this fucking thing. Speaking of confidence in performing, he did not sing for the first 45 minutes. He strutted around on stage as the band played. He'd go up to the mic, start to sing and then walk away. No. I am not exaggerating. 45 minutes, and he started singing. Then in an hour and he started playing Purple Rain, and he was like, No, you're all not ready. He stopped playing Purple Rain. Oh, my God. He sang a bunch of other songs.

This is like you going to set next week with no preparation. Yeah. He was trying something.

When the cameras are on me, I'm like, You're not ready.

No. Well, Camal, I really loved it. I hope everyone checks it out. The material is great. You perform it well. But what is so satisfying for me is a hard compliment to take. You're such a genuinely beautiful person. It's like very on display. Oh, my God. No, come out. You're so sweet. The whole time I'm watching, I just the warmest, just loving vealing towards you.

You're such a sweet dude.

I know. That's why I'm like, who could be mean to you?

Yeah, that was the last thing I wanted to say on that.

Some of these people aren't even real.

You have to remember that. I know. It's troll farms in Russia who decided, let's pick up this guy.

No one who knows you or has been around you could ever be mean.

But you know what's funny is we both have this thing, we want muscles, we want this and that, and I'm blown away with it, and I'm horny for the muscles as I'm watching it. But it is the essence that's just Kamal that I'm so attracted to. It is so beautiful and thoughtful and smart and conscious.

With or without muscles.

Yeah. The quintessential ingredient is still you.

Oh, thank you. That's very sweet. That's the nicest couple. Sincerely, Yeah, I'm very proud of it because I didn't do stand-up for so long. When I started up again, I was like, All right, I'm going to give myself a year and a half to write an hour, perform it, record it, and then I'm going to take a break and see when I come back to it. I really feel like at this point in my life, at this age, this is the thing I want to say that's completely my own. I feel like I did it to the best of my ability in this moment. Who knows what happens next, but I'm proud of that.

Yeah. All right, Kamal, I love you. It's been too long since you were here. I hope you'll come back. Night Thoughts, December 19th on Hulu. It's fantastic.

Thanks for coming. Thanks, buddy. Loving you guys. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, If You Dare.

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

Kumal.

Kumal Nanjiani, We just like him so much. We do. He's a sweet boy.

He's so nice. He's a good boy.

He is. Who was reminding me of him recently?

Me.

Oh, this is interesting. I guess it borders on racist, but he has a similar sweet core that I think Karen Soni has. I don't know if somehow it's related, but it's a very specific sweetness.

Yeah. Karen is Very sweet.

Yes. Yeah.

I don't think it's racist because you don't think I have it. No. Yeah. No.

I don't either. You have other great qualities.

No. I don't even... I mean, I think it's a great quality. I love seeing it, but I don't wish I had it. Yeah.

I mean, there's so much- Maybe that's gendered. There's a lot of overlap between Karen, obviously, and Kamal, in that they're both growing up, one in Pakistan, one in India, but both little guys that are really quite afraid of their environment. Yes. Karen hiding his sexuality and being terrified, and then Kamal seeing a guy get shot, and then leaving there. I don't know. I know. There's some connective tissue.

Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of that, speaking of- Connective tissue?

Drama.

Oh, twama. I don't mean to correct you, but twama.

I know. I can't believe I said that. It's so wrong. When I was home in Georgia, I had a great time. But it was funny because sometimes I wonder, because I've been here a while, been here in LA, that I've made some stuff up in my head.

Oh, sure. Yes.

I relate. Yeah. I'm like, Am I being hyperbolic about some of this stuff or the way I remember it? Was there racism? Or maybe not. I don't know. I start questioning it. I think it's good to question it. We have these ideas that are built and maybe that's wrong. And of course, it's always going to be a little wrong because your memories shift and stuff and morph over time. There's revisionist history, great Yeah, incredible. But I was, so bad to say, I was relieved. There was a couple moments where I was affirmed that those things- Weren't imagined? Were not imagined, yes. I was talking to someone, specifically, who I'm very close to, who was talking about, I have to be careful here. Who was talking about their father-in-law. I grew up with this person. This person knows me very well. Yeah, yeah. And she, my friend, was telling me just how bad, how racist it's gotten in that, how house with this person, father-in-law. And I was like, and I said, I said, That's so weird because he knows me.

Right.

And she's like, Yeah, well, you're an exception because you're rich and famous. And I was like, Oh, my God. And then there's another person in that person's life who's also Indian. I said, what about this person? And she was like, he's an exception to just because he's been around, but there's still some weirdness. And I was like, wow. When she said it, it was a light bulb for me because I was like, yes, me being an exception is what's driven my entire life. Sure. I think it's part of what has driven me to work so hard. It's like across the board. It's just like, I have to be an exception. Yes. Across the board. I think that then just bled into all areas of my life, work and anything, relationships.

I think that's an incredibly sound theory, but I would also suggest it's like it's some percentage of the pie because your parents are gangsters. Your genetics are awesome. You are going to be a go getter wherever you grew up as well. And then I think if I were you, I would certainly feel this way because you can't afford to make room for the nuance. But I'd imagine you think, racist is one thing, right? It's just this hatred of all people or whatever. But when we're watching that wonderful documentary, and those bozo white nationalists are sitting with this Indian woman, and they're like, Well, not you. And I think there's mass confusion within their own mind. I think they have a cartoonish archetype in their mind that they hate, right? Whatever the characteristics they've assigned to this group that they hate. And then yet, weirdly, I think they're open to when they meet someone of that group that's not displaying these stereotypical archetype things they think they hate, then they go like, Oh, well, I don't hate this one. So I think even racism is as complicated and nuanced and probably individual as every other opinion, like full of contradictions.

Yeah, I think that's right. I just think that's the problem. The hope would be that if they met or knew someone of that race, that that would then shatter the racism.

The whole, right.

It's a paradigm. But I think they go, Oh, this is an exception. This is an exception. But they're open to meeting three more exceptions that day.

I know, but who cares if the overall...

I know what you mean. I mean, it's a spectrum, probably, and Hitler's on one side, which is like, Jews are genetically inferior. They all suck no matter what I'm witnessing them do spectacular. You can't penetrate his level on that. And then I just think it's a crazy spectrum. It is. And, of course, how is anyone, the other group, to know where this person's at? How irrational are they in this opinion?

Well, it is definitely a huge spectrum, and people make exceptions all the time. But I guess what has happened to me over my life is I used to be very... I needed to be that exception for survival, but I didn't care. I didn't care about the other Indian people. As long as I got through, I was mind. Yeah. And now I don't feel that. I'm like, Fuck that. You take all of us or you can't just... I'm not an exception. Right. I'm like everybody else. You can't call a cart. Yeah. So it's changed, I think, for me over as I have grown.

It's interesting. There's so many little minute layers to all of it. It's like I may learn that Israelis on the personality test are the highest disagreeability of all the ethnicities. This is a confirmed thing we've had experts on talking about. Then I might mean in Israeli that doesn't seem that disagreeable. Then I have to make room for like, oh, right, sure. In general, they over index in this. But again, there's so much variety within this thing. I also have to go like, I can't just assume they're all disagreeable.

Because there's Yeah, because- It's like I'm doing it, I'm sure, in ways that aren't overtly racist or hostile or with any sense of superiority, just like what I think I know about different groups. Yeah.

And then you have to constantly be making room for the individual.

Well, racism is not about making... I mean, I guess making generalizations is a part of it, but it's the making generalizations that lead to a feeling of superiority or a feeling of hatred. So if you don't have those other pieces, it's not as much of an issue unless you're making all these assumptions about people that aren't true. But for the most part, that's the issue, right? It's like, Oh, they're all like this, and so that's gross or bad or Yeah, I can give a personal example on my own.

I grew up around a couple of different cultures. Some of these cultures definitely... There was an increased machismo, and what I thought was total disrespect for females. And I went, that's wrong. Not I'm better. So even within superiority, it's such a broad word. I definitely felt like what I was doing was right and what they were doing was wrong, per my morals and ethics. But I at no point was like, I'm better than or I'm superior, or if this person hadn't grown up in my household, they wouldn't be the same. It's just like, Oh, I know this group of people. They're pretty fucking hyper-masculine and aggressive, and I'm not for that. Yeah. It's really complicated. But I love what you were exploring at the beginning because my brother and I had a really profound... Well, first of all, we had this beautiful trip together right before Christmas. We went to New York together, and I have had the great luxury of going to New York a ton of times and getting to live in different areas of the city when I'm working. And there's a whole part of New York I love that I don't think the tourist really knows.

And I very much wanted my brother to see that side of it. Because he even said, Why do you love New York so much? For him, it was It's Times Square in Central Park. And I'm like, Well, yeah, that's a great- Those are great. But probably not worth going to multiple times. Yes. So we went and we were on this long. We walked everywhere. We walked 17 miles a day. And I think we were walking across the Brooklyn Bridge and we were chatting. And I said, my brother's a great, great believer, as am I, in that... He's a vision board person. And he imagines what he wants, and he puts out into the world these positive outcomes he wants. And it's very effective Manifesting.

I love it.

And he manifestsests it, right? Yeah. And he thinks positive thoughts, and he knows positivity begats positivity. And we're talking about confirmation bias. Like, yeah, if you think everything's upward trending, you see the proof of the upward trending, and you ignore the downward trend, and then you don't get bogged down in that. Yeah. And I said to him, I said, You know what feels really unfair for me as I write this memoir is any one of us have had every experience in childhood. I can really... I have the data or the plot points to create any story I wanted.

Sure.

Because all I got to do is string together the 15 times this thing happened, and I decided that was my childhood. And I said to Dave, I said, I want to get this out of my I system the memoir. And the goal is when the memoir is done, I'm going to start looking back on my history a lot differently than I have been, which is I have to acknowledge, yeah, these things happen to you and I, but if we really added it up, that's probably was 0. 03% of our experience on life. They're so hyper-memorable because they were so dramatic and stuff. But in reality, we're looking at 99% of the time we had a damn good sitch. I said, and I want to start constructing a different story about my back. I said, I think the same thing is true about looking forward. I think I need to apply it looking backwards. Now that I said it out loud, I feel a commitment to like... That's good. I mean, really, you could. You could look at the twelve situations where someone discarded you, and you could look at the twelve that they showed compassion to you because you were other.

I bet you also received a lot of, I would hope, some teachers that recognize this girl's other, and I want to make her feel inclusive.

I bet there was acts of generosity. Those don't hurt in sticking your memory, but I bet they were there.

For whatever reason, I am very aware of the cheerleaders and angels in my story. Those are the main characters for sure. I have no questions about that. It's startling. I feel so lucky in that.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah. I mean, no one gets to have a life like this without it. You just don't. You have to have a lot of people who believe in you. You have to have a lot of support and luck, and not just from your family, from just random people. So, yeah. When I was home, I saw my old cheerleading coach, which was so fun. She We were talking and I was like, God, how did you do it? How did you make all of us 15-year-olds care so much about this thing? It was life or death. It was like, if we didn't win, we were going to die.

You were at the Olympics in your mind.

Yes. We were all working together so hard. A huge team of people. Everyone was on the same page. She said, I don't know. She was like, I think about that all the time, too. You guys were so... She, too, was blown away by that. She's still... She runs a gym. She's so successful in what she does. But she looks back on that, too. And so there is just some weird luck you get. I landed in that environment where you had to show up. There was no other option but to be your best. Yeah, there's just so many lucky hearts.

You're going to love Angela Duckworth's new book. I'm reading a pre-copy of it. Oh, fun. It's all about the power of situation. She hinted at it the last time she was here. She was like, Grit was all about individual willpower, determination, dedication, blah, blah, blah. And I think you might have remember, she had a graduate student of hers that was like, this is a little bit of bullshit. Remember, he called her out. And God bless her, she was open enough to hear them out and start exploring. So Yeah. The last decade of her life, post-grid, has been really opening herself up to the enormous impact of environment. Everything around you. And she points out everything around you is objective, and then everything inside you is completely subjective. Totally. Yeah. And that thing you experienced on the team, you were a product of an environment. Yeah. Where each of you challenged each other in rows, and she said, yes, You can get born into terrible situations. Yes, you can have terrible parents, but you always have some situational agency. I think if you recognize the power of the situation, you can put yourself in different situations.

You'll respond accordingly. I love it. I'm loving it so much.

We should have her on to talk about it. Oh, we must. We must.

Yeah.

Okay. Exciting. Okay. I'm pivoting because I have a really important question.

I can't wait to answer it.

So what would you do if your bar of soap that you wash your hands with, it's hand soap, it's a bar. It flies out. I have one. Okay, yeah. And you like it. You like that soap a lot.

Volcanic ash?

No, that's from my body. Okay. You're washing your hands, and it flies out, slippery.

Yeah.

And it lands directly into the toilet.

No problem. Really? Not a problem. Wait, is there feces in the toilet? No, but A little bit of yawn?

No, but it was just flushed.

Yeah.

Like, seconds before.

Yeah, no one is going to like this, but this is a fact. Okay. Your kitchen sink is a thousand times more dangerous than your toilet bowl. There is way more harmful, potential harmful bacteria in your sink. So if you dropped your hand soap in the sink, you wouldn't think anything of it. You'd rinse it off and wash it a little bit. It is interesting. I wash my soap sometimes, which feels insane.

To what extent is it self-cleaning and to what extent is it not? Where does the self-cleaning line get drawn?

Yeah, it's the demarcation. But that would be fine for me.

You'd be Absolutely.

It's just water in there. And there's a little bit of your Yon- Residu. Which is mostly aniseptic.

And Poopoo Residu. Poopoo Residu.

Doody. No. Stool balls. Stool balls. We heard this is Easter egg for Armchair Anonymous coming up. That's right.

So this happened to me, obviously. What did you do?

I already know what you did.

What do you think I did? You used it. I didn't.

I don't even know you.

I know. I was staring at this. I have this soap. It's round. It's very cool. It looks like a stool ball, but it's white.

It's begging to be slipped out of your hand for crying.

I know. But I've used it enough that it's like now it's just like a dome, like the bottom is flat. It's half, cut in half.

Semi-hemisphere.

It was like slow motion. I saw it twirling in the air and then plop right in the middle of the toilet. I I looked at it for a while because I was like, for a second. This is like when I thought the rat got in the kettle. Sometimes my brain goes a little haywire. I was like, should I just flush it? Fuck up your hole. Then, yeah, I was like, no, I can't. I can't flush it. That's bad for the toilet. It'll clog. But I was like, but I don't want to put my hand in there. I really did not want to put my hand in. It feels off brand for you.

You'll get down.

I know.

Remember that one time?

What did you do?

Have I talked about it on here? I'm sure I did. When I first started my seizure medication and I had my morning BM. It was like the first day, and I looked and it was in there.

The medicine was. The capsule.

The whole thing.

The entire thing, yeah.

Yeah, I do remember that. Well, that's what I needed to see. I had to I see.

That's right. I do remember.

Yeah, you had to for your help.

I had to. That's right. But this, for some reason, and it was flushed, but it was recently flushed. I was like, I don't want to put my hand in there. And then I did.

I feel like I'd just be able to get rid of the top layer of the soap and be done afresh.

I mean, that's what my thought was. It's like, should I just rinse it off? It's soap. It's self-cleaning. I just get this top layer off. But I was like, I don't believe in self-cleaning anymore all of a sudden. I threw it in the garbage.

I was going to say, my curiosity is killing me. How did you retrieve it?

Tongs from- No, I put my hand in. But you did. Yeah, I did. I hated it.

I thought you were saying you didn't want it.

I didn't. I didn't want to, but I was like, I guess I have to. I put my hand in and I grabbed it and I just threw it straight in the garbage. Then I had to get another soap to clean my arm and my hand.

There's a whole thing.

It's a Jonathan Hyte moral- Moral dilemma. Moral dumbfounding dilemma because it's technically and morally fine, but it felt really wrong.

Yeah.

I had to throw it away.

That makes me think of, I took Delta to breakfast on Sunday. I'm trying to think what topic brought up, Morals and Ethics. It was really fun to Start exploring that with her.

What is she? I mean, she's so ethical, I think.

I do, too.

Yeah. Kind of innately quite ethical. She is. Yeah. I don't know where she got it.

Oh, my God.

I'm trying to think what topic came up, and I was just like, Yeah, you get to pick what you think is moral and immoral. I think she was asking a right or wrong question, and we got to explore it. Anyways, it's so fun to be having deeper and deeper conversations with the kids as they get older.

I love that.

Yeah. She was reading. She has a graphic novel she got for Christmas. You might have seen this. This was at my birthday dinner.

Wait, that's the- At Bricktops. Oh, I thought that was Kristen's.

No. I don't even know who got it for her.

Carly.

Oh, my sister.

Yes. That makes so much more sense.

Tell me. You were flummoxed?

Yes, because Kristen pulls out this book, and maybe I jumped in the conversation late because she said, Carly got this. It's about this. And I thought it was for Kristen. And I was like, She got you a graphic novel? I did think that was weird. Off-rand, for sure. Off-rand, for both of them. Off-rand. Kind of like me putting my hand in the toilet. Yes. But now that I know it, that makes so much more sense.

Yeah. So we just had the sweetest conversation because there's some adult themes, I guess in it. She wanted to know if it was okay that she was reading these adult themes. She felt maybe conflicted. I said, your gut will tell you. Yeah. Your gut will tell you when you're ready for things and when you're not ready for things. You just listen to your gut. There's no right or wrong, or it's too early or too late. But your gut will tell you. So don't worry. You don't have to worry about what's right or wrong. Yeah. You just have to feel what's right or wrong for you or when you're uncomfortable. Then maybe even sometimes you're uncomfortable, but it's tolerable on comfort.

Yeah, she's so cute. We had a horrible situation where she loves these maylegs, which I think is also taken the world by storm. They're so cute. They're these little mice great characters.

They're like little 3D printed.

No, they're cloth. Oh, they're cloth? Yeah, they're really cute. Okay. You collect them, and then you collect their little house, little Yeah. Appliances. Yeah, those.

Oh, yeah. They're all over the house.

They're so cute. I feel like I wish I could have some. Yeah. But it feels like maybe- Well, you could definitely have some.

You think a guy might be weirded out? Yeah. Weird it out. This is like the dipe conversation from 2020.

Oh, if you were wearing your dipe in bed.

If you were when you were 20, if you met a girl at a bar and you hooked up, and then she said, I got to throw my dipe on before I go to bed. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't.

I think if you're cute, you pull it off.

I think you can pull that off for sure.

I just don't think there's an amount of cuteness that gets... To the dipe? Yeah, the dipe.

Well, we asked all the men in the pod, and all the women were like, Absolutely not. And the men were like, Yeah, how cute is she? I don't remember. You could go, Oh, this is adorable. This is a girl. She can't be a child. You don't want to be... You got to be really clear about what's happening. You're with an adult. Then you find out this adult, where's night dips.

Is it is efficient because it's not... Okay, this was also part of it. It's not that she can't control her pee.

No. Because all day long, she doesn't wear a type.

It's just that she doesn't want to wake up in the night to go to the bath.

To remind people Well, this stems from my game plan of starting to wear nighttime dips. So I didn't have to wake up and pee anymore. Yes. Then people were like, What about when you're traveling? I'll get a fucking dye when I go to that city.

That's the question. Anyway, her maylegs. So they're really, really cute. And she wanted... One of the things on her list for her birthday and Christmas was a doll house for her maylegs. And Kristin told me about this, and Kristin was like, She doesn't need an official one. You can just get her some random one. And I was like, No. Try what box? Yeah, get her a shoe box. And I was like, Absolutely not. If she wants the official one, she's getting it. And so I go on the website, the USA website, Melec, and I order what's there. And I'm excited, and I tell her it's coming. And then we go to Nashville, and someone had got her one for Nashville, too. That's going to stay in Nashville. Okay, great. The one for her that I ordered arrived while I was gone. So I saw that it arrived, but I didn't see it. So then we're in Nashville, and she's like, Oh, look at this. And she was showing me the box. I was like, Oh, my God, it's so cute. Exciting. Well, you'll have one for both houses. And then I get home and I was like, This box looks tiny.

Okay, now I'm up to speak. Because I How are you guys unwrapping this? Yesterday or the day before?

A couple of days ago, yeah. I was like, Oh, no. But then I came, I was like, Well, maybe you have to set it up.

Maybe it expands. The box looked too small, right? That was the issue.

Way too small. I got nervous. Yes, because she deserves the best. Well. Yes, she does. And I was like, Oh, my God. And then I come into the house, and I don't see her, but she's there, but I don't see her. And you're standing there and you're like, What is that? And I was like, It's Delta's doll house, but I think there's something wrong. I don't understand. It's so small. And I don't know. This is bad. And then she pops her little head out. And it's like, It's going to be perfect. It's perfect. And I was like, I don't know, Delta. It looks really small. And she was like, It doesn't matter if it's small. It's exactly right. And then I'm like, It better be a mansion doll house for her. It has to be so perfect. And then we opened it, and it is wrong. I mean, it's right. It's what is available on the site. I looked it up. So I don't know how you guys got that other one for Nashville because it's not on that USA site.

I don't know either. I'm really conflicted about all this. No, I love it.

Then what I got her is a suit casa. It's just this small suitcase. And she took it out and I was like, Oh. I responded very negatively.

I was like, Oh. You really yucked the potential yump.

Yeah. I was like, Oh, sucasa, what is this? And she was like, It's great. And she was like, This is perfect. I need different kinds, and everyone has different size houses, so it's good. And I was like, Oh, my God. This person is so sweet. It's unbelievable.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, If You Dare.

You now just jogged my memory of how we got on Ethics. Okay. She randomly said to me at Cafe 101, because I do, and I'm on the fence about this, but I do it. I let her order whatever she wants. I can't even relate to it, right? Just the way we grew up versus... If she wants pancakes and she wants eggs, I'm like, Yeah, go for it. Yeah. She just out of nowhere, she said, Dad, do you want to tell me I can't order as much? I go, Here's my thing about you ordering too much. I I don't care if you order too much. I can afford to buy it. I said, And I recognize that you have a lot of decision anxiety. For me, it's very easy to solve that problem with another $6 order of pancakes.

But I do worry a lot that I'm setting you up for failure because you're going to grow up.

You can't afford to fucking order whatever you want. I feel like I get scared. I'm not preparing you for-The world. The world. And she said, Okay, but is it wrong? That's how we got on it. Is it wrong? And I said, well, there's a lot of rungs to this ladder. There's legally what's right and wrong. I said, there are morals we would all agree on. Don't kill, don't rape, don't steal, don't hurt other people. And then there's this whole area where you have to decide what your own ethical code is. And one of mine is, I try not to waste. And I try to leave the world as I found it. And on a great day, I leave it a little better. I said, You notice you've never seen me ever leave something in the sink. It's a stupid moral of mine. I just won't leave it worse than I found it. And she said, Okay. And I said, So you have to decide if you feel guilty about wasting.

Right. And it's personal.

And it's up to you. I'm not going to assign you your morals, but that's what's on the table. And she said, Okay, I want you to tell me, I think you're ordering too much. You're going to waste some in the I said, okay. And then she got a to-go box for her French fries. We're never going to eat these French fries. While she's doing it, I want to be like, well, hon, this isn't the time. These fucking things are never getting eat. They're going to sit in the fridge for fucking eight days, and then I'm going to throw them out. But I just had to honor them all. Then we walked out with a, I have to eat in order French fries. But anyways, this little girl, this fucking little girl. She's too much.

She really is too much. It's a lot. It's It's overwhelming. But I have zero. Come for me in the comments. I won't read them. I have zero guilt about wasting food. It is weird. It's like, why don't I?

Well, you can make a lot of compelling arguments in all directions. So one of the arguments I make for myself when we are wasting placeful is like, we're wasting our money, but I'm putting it into the world. I don't think I should be sitting here and squirreling everything I have. So I just always remind myself when I have wasted money, well, I wasted it by giving some small business that money or some manufacturer, whatever. So in that way, I'm like, well, that's not bad at all. In fact, the more we get out of my pocket and everyone else's, that's the best, probably. And then no one's going to like this. They'll come from me in the comments. It is not a finite resource. There's growers making money. There's this grocery store that sold it. There's all these people in this chain that were employed. And yes, if you want to zoom out as an unethical because someone starving over there, yes, but that's a totally false argument because I can't get that food to that person over there. And if I don't waste it, it's not going to them. So it's a hypothetical that's not reality.

So I don't get bogged down in that. But the thing that gets me more, I spun I can't tell it's just my own child and what's going on. I was like, So this thing you're talking about, these toys. Maylegs, yeah. Maylegs. Maylegs. Then there's fugglers.

Yeah, we talked about fugglers.

In my opinion, there's too many fugglers. You shouldn't have this many fugglers. And then I walk outside and I'm like, And I have seven cars I've collected over the years. I'm not in a position to be critical, but I bought those cars.

Yeah, but she didn't...

This is This is why the good place was made. Exactly. Being ethical at all times is nearly impossible in our modern world.

To one person, it's this, and to another person, it's that. It's also why we're so divided. We all have such different ethics. To me, yes, there are some things that are there objectively wrong. Sometimes when I hear other people's talk and I'm like, You don't think that? It's so startling. But But I agree with you. There's this middle portion that it really is very, very, very individual. Because, weirdly, for me, wasting is almost like It's like a personal respect. When I am at a restaurant and I order something, I eat what I want to eat of it. And if I was like, I- You have to overconsume.

Exactly. Yes, agreed. That's another one of my arguments. It's like, to make yourself take on excess calories your body told you you don't want is insane to make who happy.

And just like, I don't want anymore. I should be okay with not wanting anymore. There's a gluttonous element on the other side of it. Yes. It's like, I don't like the way that is in people. So I don't know.

It's weird. Chris and I talk about this a lot because we get a little debate about what is wasting and what's not. In my opinion, you have to also be very pinpointed about when is it wasted. Once you've ordered it, it's done. Yeah, exactly. It's completely done. If you bought something from the store and you brought it back to your house, and now you're keeping it in your house because you don't want to waste, that's a fantasy. The buying it- Some people eat it. Well, I'm just saying people will... Us. We have just shit piling up because we would feel terribly guilty to throw it away. Stuff you can't donate. We do a lot of money. But But my point is always like, it's too late. If you want to cut back on waste, it's the buying of it. Totally. That's right. Once you bought it, forget it. You might as well do whatever you want, whether you eat it or you throw it in the trash or you stick it in your ass or you light it on fire. It's irrelevant. It's that you bought it, and now it'll be replaced with more manufacturing.

That's done. It happened the second. There's no wasting or not wasting it. It's over. I'm also reading the Ezra Klein book, Abundance. Yeah, he gets into the climate in a really comprehensive all-facets way, which I love, which is like, you have different movements within the environmental movement. And one of them is really just a judgment on consumerism. A lot of the environmental movement, people in it, what they really want is they think we made this pact with the devil years ago when we became a consumeristic capitalist society. So what they really want is for us to not be that way. Now, what are the odds the world is going to do That's not going to happen. But people are not going to go back to a prematerialistic world. He said, Now you have another bigger group, which is like, there's clearly a lot of waste in the system, and there's a lot of resources being spent on stuff that shouldn't be spent on. The problem is people don't agree on what those things are. I know. Then I think you get down to what I hope should be everyone's core value is like, my ethics aren't above yours.

They're mine. You got yours. That's a superiority in the all knowingness of thinking yours are the ones everyone should agree on.

What about if someone's like, well, I'm allowed to hurt this person. It's like, there should be some, right?

Well, again, that's why there's ones that we actually all agree on. Everyone agrees that you shouldn't be allowed to assault people, kill people, rape people, steal from people.

I guess those are laws.

I guess that's when they become laws. They're laws. They're the Ten Commandments. They've been agreed upon for quite a long time. And then this other batch, as much as you're convicted about it, it's the other batch.

It is funny, though, because I am very materialistic. It's no secret. I like buying stuff. I like looking nice. I like whatever. But I was at a store at home, a store I like. But I was looking around and all of a sudden I was just like, there's so much stuff. There's just stuff. It's all just random stuff everywhere. What are we I did have this like, what are we doing as a people? Yeah.

Well, he brings that one up. He's like, of all these buckets, you've got fast fashion. Cement is an enormous emitter of carbon when it's made and we need it for construction. It's like, you certainly have one person saying, we don't need a fucking another football arena. The other one works. Yeah. Legit. I'm going looking at fast fashion and going, that shit, you don't need that. Yeah. But I want... Totally.

Well, it's hard, though, Because it's like, there are sizes, so many parts of this because fast fashion, for me, I'm like, okay, I'm against fast fashion, right? Because I can afford- Yes, exactly.

It's a total privilege to have that point of view.

It's a privilege. To me, I'm like, yes.

You're a young, poor girl. You want an outfit, man.

Of course, you want an outfit. You live in a trailer, come on. You should be able to have it. That is also what I feel. So I'm like, I'm so conflicted about this because I do think there should be that available for people who don't have the privilege I have. Yet, then what I do is I think there should be some of those options, but I should not participate in it since I don't have to.

Exactly. You do the things that you can do or that you're willing to do.

Yeah, but the judgment is the problem. The across the board judgment is not looking at any nuance.

We must all get a little looser on our grip of all in, all this, all definitive. It's left, it's right. All these different binaries are like, guys, life in its best outcome is like, we tried to service five or six principles, and we optimized all of them as much as we could, but they all took a hit along the way.

I just think maybe a good resolution is to be more focused on you, how you walk through life. You worry about what you're doing. Yeah. If this thing that you're doing, just try to be the version of you that you think is ethical, moral, whatever. Stop looking outward.

Don't tell a fucking single person about it. Live your life and you'll be appealing to people who want to model what you do. Be an example. Don't be a fucking preacher.

Yeah. Anyway.

Kumal.

Yeah, Kumal.

Where does he land on fast fashion? Did we get that out of him?

I forgot to ask.

He does not wear fast fashion. He's very well dressed.

Yeah, he doesn't. But he's privileged. Yeah. He doesn't have to. Unstoppable is a movie with Denzel.

Sure is.

And Chris Pine.

And Ethan Suplee.

Exactly. That's probably how we got on the subject. Okay, I looked up how much the Coons vacuum cleaner in the box is worth. A Jeff Coons vacuum cleaner artworks worth very significantly. With some new Hoover convertibles selling for millions. Example, over 4 million at Sotheby's, over 5 million at Christie's. While smaller inspired or vintage models might fetch a few hundred to a few thousand dollars at places like eBay, showing the vast difference between collectible fine art and regular items. Okay, so his are in the millions.

I want to say that the one- That one, yeah. My friend found the piece of. I don't know if I told that whole story in this episode. Oh, no. The reason I even know about these vacuums is a friend of mine for the insurance company that had insured them. I know that the collection, I want to say there were three in this collection. I think at that time, we're $8 million, and this was 15 years ago. There was a piece missing. At some point, the art piece had been serviced or cleaned, and a piece got lost, and then there was a claim laid on it. If we don't find this piece, the insurance company has to pay out $8 million, and my boy found the piece. Oh, wow. He's like a slew. Oh, wow. He just has to go to New York and befriend all these art critics and get himself into this warehouse.

Interesting. Wow. That is a cool looking vacuum, I have to say. It's very cool.

But what's hilarious is all it is is the vacuum from the store in a lose-site box with a light under it.

That's where I have problems. That's where my ethics are drawn. I would not feel ethical putting an existing thing in a lose-site box and calling it my art. I would not feel ethical doing that. But Jeff is his own guy.

And it's beautiful. Something about it, I think it's ridiculous, and I look at it, and I like looking at it. Sure. Yeah.

Okay. So he said he had just gotten some massage on his jaw, and then he was crying about his dead grandma. Oh, yeah. And then I looked it up.

I want that experience. Do you?

No. So my emotions are already available.

That's true.

But I looked up our jaw muscles attached to emotion because also Elizabeth, lame, Elizabeth and Andy. That's dead. Nobody's listening, right? She talks about how she can't have sex unless her jaw is relaxed. It's connected to her horniness. Oh, my God. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah. So is his job to massage those and keep them pliable?

Well, I'm sure he does if he wants it.

My only route to sex was to relax mastoids. I feel like I'd become an expert on- Masseuse? On loosening mastoids.

Excuse me, that was disrespectful. What did you say? I said massews.

Oh, yeah.

I want a massage therapist to reclaim that title the way women have reclaimed bitch and- I agree. Black people have reclaimed.

Yeah, we know where I'm going with everything. I looked it up. Yes, jaw muscles are directly linked to emotions, stress, anxiety, anger, and even happiness because jaw tension or relaxation through the body's fight or flight response and nervous system leading to clenching or a slack jaw. And this physical tension can also worsen emotional states, creating a feedback loop. So that's cool. Yeah. Okay. You said 67% of people have teeth nightmares. Looks like 39 to 40% of people have dreams about their teeth falling out or rotting at least once, making it a very common nightmare theme. Though rates of recurring dreams are lower, around 8 to 16%. These dreams are often linked to stress, anxiety, or feelings of powerlessness. But sometimes physical dental irritation, like teeth grinding during sleep, can trigger them. Yeah, nearly 4 in 10 adults have experienced teeth dreams. I'm so rare. I guess technically, I'm in the majority if these are right, but still.

You just don't have that nightmare. I don't. You must not carry a lot of tension in your jaw. I had always thought it was orthodontia history.

Right, but it's actually your powerlessness history. Certainly. I hate powerlessness.

Yeah.

I had a dream last night that I was late. I was in Boca Raton. Okay. And I had to get No. Was I in Boca Raton? I think so. And I looked at the clock- Is it Boca Raton or Boca Raton?

I don't know. I think it might be Raton, but I'm not to be trusted.

In the south, we say Boca Raton.

Maybe it is. Maybe we were saying it wrong in Detroit. We say most things wrong in Detroit.

Well, and I was there and I looked at the clock and the fact check was starting in 11 minutes.

Oh, wait. Oh, you were in Boca Raton or town.

I had to get here in 11 minutes. I had to get to the airport.

You can't do it in 11 minutes.

I was trying. I was like, trying to get my bags, and I couldn't get to the right bag claim. It was a lot.

More than my teeth now, what has taken over my teeth is my goddamn phone. It's always a flight. I always need to check if I can delay I find another flight later because I'm not going to make it to the airport, and I cannot get my phone. Every time I open my phone, I'm on a weird screen, and I have a bug. It's like the old days on your computer when it get taken over on AOL. Yeah. Then you just fucking pop up screen, everyone, you could not. Oh, weird. You was going to throw your computer in the trash. It would just take over.

It would get a virus, and it was just done. Fucking viruses. Yeah.

Yeah. So in my dream, my phone, it always has this virus, and I can't get to the internet to change my flight. And that now is I'm having that one at least three times a month. We're?

Yeah.

I think that might just be having a pretty busy schedule.

Sure.

I think.

Yeah. Feeling like, what do I have today?

So many things in my calendar.

I get that. Okay. Was it Evan Peters, the mayor of Easttown? Yeah. This was so... Remember when he told us a lot of Indians have an extra thumb?

Yeah.

It That's true. Preaxial polydactyly.

So this is specifically just the thumb.

Yeah. My twama. When he said that, I was like, Oh, my God. I really hated that.

The thought of an extra thumb.

On Indian, specifically. It was like, oh.

Even more other.

Yeah. I was like, Why? That's the guy he was talking about. He is very handsome.

Oh, my God. So for the Listener, it's not what you think. It's not two individual thumbs. It's one thick thumb that then branches into two- Right.

Tips.

Tips.

Whoa.

Dude, wow, I've never seen that.

And that's common in India. And what I love is he's proud of that. Yeah, he's a big- He's not hiding it at all.

He's a big movie star.

I know a very big movie star. It's got a ham thing, and he hides it really, really well.

Yeah. No, he's owning it, which I love. But it does stress me out.

It does. The thumb itself from the angle where you're looking at the palm, it definitely looks like a cute... Not a frog head, not a turtle head. It does look like... Imagine the gap between the two thumbs is a mouth, and then I see an eyeball on the top.

Yeah, it looks like Marcel, the shell-There we go. Seashores.

Yeah, it's a little character. Yeah. Do you think he has dexterity in it? And he can... I hope. Well, he would have to, right? But I wonder if he can make that move like a Pac-Man mouth.

I think he can. Oh, wow. Now, while exact numbers for India are scarce, Polydactylia lily is notably more- That way, your middle name is Lily. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What if I had it and they got it removed? Because, hold, notably more common in Indian populations, especially preaxial polydactyly, extra thumb, toe side, with some studies suggesting rates as high as one in 3,000 births in India, much higher than general global rates. Okay. Strong genetic component, it says, obviously. Duh. Yeah. It also says, though, that a lot of people get it... Studies, they get it removed at birth.

Sure. Okay. That means 400,000 people in India have it. If it's one in three thousand. If it's one in 3,000, 400,000, you could make a damn good living as the doctor who does this.

It's the second most common congenital hand disorder. What? What if I had that and they got it removed?

You didn't. How do you know? Because you'd have a massive scar on your thumb. And to my knowledge, I haven't inspected your thumb in great detail, but I think you would see.

What if I just...

He screamed out loud.

Oh, I'm so lucky. That's okay.

We all have our things.

Every group has a thing.

Well, no, it's It's fine. I just was imagining growing up here with that. It was hard enough.

You'd have to wear gloves or something. Well, would you rather be known as the girl that wears the glove or the girl with three thumbs? I don't know. As a kid, I know I'd rather be the guy who wore gloves. You could just go, Oh, my hands are really dry. The doctor makes me wear these gloves. As you get older, you're going to have to pull your gloves off at some point.

When you find your true love. Oh, my God. This is why I would really, I would not be.

You'd be shut down. Because you're very attractive, and you're a real catch, and you're already mildly shut down. So if we would throw in a third thumb, I think.

Well, you know me, I have a weird Again, a self-hatred, I guess. But if a freckle or a mole, mainly even a freckle, pops up on my body, I really I can't handle it. I have to dig it out. It's probably causing cancer.

It's also a contradiction, which is you love Delta's mole on your face, right?

Oh my God, the most.

Yeah, and freckles on other people. You love it.

I know. It has nothing to do with other people. Yeah, I know. Nothing.

No, I'm going further. You actually like it in other people.

Yeah, I think it's so cute.

But you hate it on yourself.

Yeah. I have this freckle on this finger right here.

You're always working on that. Yeah.

It appeared in the last few years, and I hate it.

That is so... I mean, I don't want to call you crazy.

No, it is crazy. But it's bonkers. It's crazy. I know it's crazy. I'm like, how could I be so fixated?

I like it. You can see it? You just held it up so I could see it, Monica.

I thought maybe it was invisible to everyone except me. Now I hate it even more.

No, I like it, and everyone likes it.

Sometimes I'm typing and I'm just like, eeuw.

You have to think of it as a part of your constellation.

I don't want that.

Okay. So- Maybe you start wearing gloves.

And then you'll be like, What happened? You get a new thumb.

When I have my thumb finally come in, that Indian thumb. Oh, my God.

All right, that's it for Kamal.

Okay.

I love you, and everyone likes your freckles.

Don't look at them. Don't zoom in, guys. Do not zoom in.

I want you to revisit hypnotism.

He passed away. I know. Really sad.

He was such a sweet-sweet guy.

He was a really nice man.

That story he told about the woman that loved him, and he thought he needed erectile dysfunction medicine. And she said, You don't need that. Let me take care of you. Do you remember that he told that story? I don't remember this at all. Oh, my God. It was the sweetest story. He told it was such tenderness. I know. I really, really liked him.

Go back in the archives. I get hypnotized. Yeah.

It's pretty- And it worked.

We'll say it worked because he's passed.

I'm going to get you hypnotized, and the only goal of the hypnotism is to convince you that it worked the first time. When you wake up, you're going to think the first tip knows this worked.

Exactly. All right. I love you. I love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the WNDRI app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wundri. Com/survey.