Transcript of David McWilliams (on the history of money)

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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on Expert. I'm Dan Sheppard, and I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. Today, we have an economist on, and I've been wanting to do this for a while, and I think it was maybe probably Malcolm who planted the seed, which is Malcolm Gladwell said, It is really peculiar how powerful money is in our lives and how it is a forbidden topic.

I know.

It's like there isn't a more relevant force that we don't talk about.

I agree. It's that play for everything. It's so interesting.

It's that play Everything. I think because we know intuitively it leads to envy. Yeah. So you just avoid it to avoid envy.

Or like, bragging or something. There are traps.

But if you work with someone, they go, How much do you make? The issue is, or I'm afraid to say, because if I make more than them, we have issues. Yes. And if I make less than them, now I have an issue with them.

I know somebody who a few times has been in a group and said how much money they've made on something. And I'm like, I'm so allergic to it. You bristle. Yeah.

And I guess I don't- And this wouldn't shock you, but I've always pretty much been very open about it. I remember Kate Hudson's brother Oliver, who I love and I was really tight with for a while. I think the first time we ever met, we were sitting in the backyard of someone's palatial house, and we're looking at the city. It's pretty overwhelming with how gorgeous everything was. And this is 21 years ago. I I was like, Oh, this is quite a place. He's like, Yeah. And we both worked a bit as an actor. And I'm like, Yeah. And then somehow, I don't know how, but he was just like, Yeah, how much do you have in the bank? And I'm like, Oh, I have $400,000 He goes, Oh, my God, that's exactly what I have. Oh, wow. And I was so excited. And there was something very bonding about it, too. But I've always been that way. I had to learn about it. I always had less than everyone, so it didn't matter. Exactly. And my family was very open about money. Oh, see, that's- And a lot of families are very tight-lipped about money.

My parents would never... I would ask them, How much money do you make? Isn't that weird? They would never tell me.

My mom's approach, which I agree with, was like, Hey, you got to learn how to manage all this and feed yourself. You better know what it... I make this. The house is this. The groceries are this. You need to understand. And that is more logical to be including your kids so they leave the house with a real sense of what it all is.

I mean, They were definitely instilling, you need to have enough. You need to be safe. Everything costs so much money all the time. They were instilling fear around it. So then I would say, well, how much do you make? If it's everything's so scary, and then they didn't want to say. That was not for us to ask. I know.

It's very, very common. What you're already detecting, if you're listening still, is that we had a break and now we're so excited to be back together and chatting a lot. So this was an intro that became a fact check. The last David McWilliams' book is called The History of Money, and it's absolutely fascinating. It is a force that really you don't have the luxury of ignoring because it fuels revolution and despotic rulers, and you got to keep your eye on it. Please enjoy David McWilliams.

He's an option, Europe's surprisingly close to New York. Yeah. We really appreciate that because in our heads, America occupies a different place. Then you realize, five hours is not a big deal.

That's why the Vikings were able to get there.

Exactly. Whereas you, Bastard, it's like your fucking miles away.

I know. We're the real deal. We're hard to get.

This is like going to a different civilization for us.

For a lot of Americans, LA is a different civilization.

Is it not maddening if you're in the rest of the world going like, that place changes so radically every four years?

I can't believe you went from Obama to Trump to Biden back to Trump. You're sitting I'm sitting here in America thinking, This is a country I really don't understand. I think most Europeans look at it and think, We thought it was left, now it's right. We thought it was socialist, now it's MAGA. Now you have Mamdani in New York.

It's all over the place. Do you guys at least know, though, that we don't either. I'm not kidding. That would comfort me that you guys understand we're as confused as you are.

That now is very reassuring because we're watching the news, particularly as an Irish person, we thought we knew the United States. I was I was a dishwasher here. I was a bartender or student. Came over to Boston, hung out with the Irish-Americans. We knew our St. Patrick's Day. You guys came over. There's what, 40 million Irish-Americans. We thought, Okay, we know this country.

You're more than 10% of the place.

Yeah, but now we have no idea But we don't either.

Yeah, we don't either.

Well, that's reassuring.

Now in our defense, I think we're getting a lot of the heat. But this is a global phenomenon. It's not unique to hear. There has been a very huge rise of populism and authoritarian type leaders. It's not unique to hear, but of course, unfortunately, we move the needle the most.

You're the superpower. Yes. America has got 4% of the world's population and 24% of the world's income. So that's huge.

Yes. You got to take it serious.

When America sneezes, the rest of us catch a cold. No, seriously. Oh, yeah. We catch fucking COVID. So you look at the States and you think, Okay, do I have any sense of what's going on in that country? But you know what? You're right. Britain has got a reform party, which is probably going to win. France has got Le Pen, Italy has got Maloney. Germany has got the AFD, It's all going the same.

You got Putin.

But at least Putin has the decency not to get elected. He's not doing this democracy stuff at all.

Now, what I saw, which is great, it was on an English TV show, and they said, it was when Biden came in, and the joke on the show was, Yeah, this season of America's boring. Is it for a TV show? So at least I hope you're entertained. Are you not? It's like succession. I hope you're having a laugh. I guess that's what I'm saying. Okay, so you grew up in Dublin and mom was an educator. Yeah, she was a teacher?

Yeah, my mom was a teacher. She's still with us. She's 90, and I brought her to New York six weeks ago. No way. Extraordinary thing. So we're sitting at home and she's from Cork in July, and we're chatting, chatting, chatting. And she goes, God, I'm 90 this year. So I said, Yeah, you are. And I said, What do you want to do? She said, You know what I'd really like to do? I'd love to go to New York. The last time she was in New York, think about this, she went on a boat. In the early '60s. We forget. Air travel is new. And it was really funny. She's 90. So it was myself, my wife, my two kids, and granny. We go to New York. We're all jet lagged. After the third day, granny says, I'm going to go to bed for half an hour. I said, Fine, okay, in the hotel. So myself, the kids and the missus are sitting having a drink. I thought she was gone for the night. Text me by 7: 00. What's the plan? Where are we going?

She was true to that now.

She did 11,000 steps on average every day. She's 90. That's my mom. She'll be listening.

Okay, great.

Hello, mom.

Hi. Hello. Shout out. To Alice. To Alice.

Shout out to Alice. We're going to bring her to LA now next on her 95th.

No, it's a little bit too far. It's too far. Now, New York, she could do.

Post up in New York for a few days and then swing. Yeah, I can do that. Then dad worked at a chemical plant My dad's passed away a long time.

He worked in a chemical plant in a factory. You'd know it from Detroit. Blue collar, old school Irish, really decent guy. Passed away a long time ago, and nine. But yeah, he was a good skin.

A heavy drinker?

On the contrary.

What working class guy was this?

It's interesting. In Ireland, you've got these weird things, right? You've got the boosy working class guys, and then you've got these slightly teetotally, not so much conservative, but they were not boosers. My dad wasn't a booser. My mom wasn't a booser. It was an unusual Irish upbringing. There was no shouting and roaring, no fights, no slapping around.

Dad never came home with a black eye. Yeah, none of that.

It's funny when you watch the Wire and you see McNulty and all the patties and all the cop Paddies and the fireman cup. Wasn't our family.

All to say, I'm not looking at that family and thinking, well, he'll certainly become an economist.

No, that's true.

That's very, very true. That's why I lay out both of those.

No, that's true. I shouldn't become a school teacher or something. Or a cop, actually.

I would almost think you would seem greedy to even go into that line of work.

I went to school, and in Ireland, we have this very strange, very narrow education system, which is highly academic. Essentially, what happens is you do these final exams, you get a certain amount of points, you have the same thing in the GMAT, and those points allocate you to certain courses in university. The points I got allocated me to doing economics.

That prescriptive?

Almost that prescriptive, right? Doing businessy commercey thing. Then I went into this course and thought, Okay, fine. Let's have a look at this. I realized, wow, this is amazing. This gives you a framework to totally understand the world. I was completely hooked when I went to university. No sense of it at all prior to this. I had no sense of economics. I had no sense of what it was about. Think about it, born in Ireland. So the economy is a disaster from day one. We have a banking crisis, we have a fiscal crisis, we have currency crisis, everything. Half of the country lives here, emigrated, and we have a war going on. A little kid, a little head in the '70s, '80s, and you think, wow, the last thing you want to do is economics because we can't do that. Because it's a mess. We can write, we can talk, we can sing, we can dance.

You can join U2, maybe.

Join U2, maybe. All that thing. Yeah, the one success we have is The one success we had. And everyone's looking at this guy and said, How did you do it? Anyway, the point is, I went to university, old university in Dublin, Trinity College, where I now teach, which is a bizarre symmetry. And I thought, wow, we might not be able to understand Ireland because We're a particularly weird bunch. But we could maybe understand America, maybe understand the globe. I think what happens if you're lucky as a late teenager, something happens in your life where you think, Okay, I like this stuff. Then you just do it. Then you do the masters, you do all that carry on. And the reason I did a master's was because there was no jobs in Ireland. So I did a master's in Belgium. Nobody emigrates to Belgium except for me.

So then you found yourself at the Central Bank of Ireland from '90 to '93, and some pretty dramatic shit went down in those few years, right? You have the German reunification, so they're going to have to combine a currency and absorb this half of themselves that has nothing. You had Black Wednesday. Is that what it's called?

Yeah, the sterling thing.

And then you have the EU, the Treaty.

Maastricht, yeah. I had no idea. None of us have any idea that there was going to be, as you said, German unification, which totally transformed Europe. Then you have the General Maastricht Treaty, which totally transforms Europe. And then the Brits did what they always do, which is they screw up.

They screwed up- It's like a true Irishman. No, but they screwed up massively.

They screwed up massively. And so when their currency collapsed, our currency collapsed with it. So you're a kid, but this is your first job. And what is interesting about working central banks, like working for the Fed here, you begin to understand how the system works and doesn't work.

Is it fair to say you're learning about the levers that can be pulled and how effective they are in different situations, and you're learning about the mechanisms by which the state can try to help or attempt?

I'm not trying to help. It's very easy to sit in the sidelines and say, the state is this and it's that. But actually, when you work in the system, you realize that most of the people are actually trying to help. Yes. Most Most of the people are trying to do the right thing. So for example, I was born in the poorest country in the Western world.

That can't be true.

So you're the poorest of the rich. Ireland was the poorest country.

You're saying Eastern Europe is not coming?

No, Eastern Europe is a communist, right? So when you're born in the poorest country of the rich world. It's maybe the most deleterious place to be because you're always comparing yourself to your neighbors.

You can only upcompare, really.

Your neighbors are rich. So when I was a kid, I worked in Boston. I worked as a dishwasher. We used to arrive over with degrees in mathematics and economics and all the jobs you could get were washing dishes here in America. I remember working when I was 18 in Boston, washing dishes and thinking to myself, okay, these Americans who we are serving are much richer than us, but they're not that smarter than us. They're not that better read. They're not clever. What are they doing that makes them so... Or what are we doing that makes us so backward? And that was something that always prompted me in the world of economics. The other issues, my dad, who you mentioned, lost his job when I was about 12, and we lived in a pretty middle class area, and that wasn't really supposed to happen. I remember my dad, when I was looking at the window in the morning, he put on a shirt and tie and pretended to go to work.

Yeah, that's a classic.

Because of who we were. I remember as a kid, this really weighed on me, and I thought, How can this man who was so decent, be made redundant by somebody else? What is this world? How does it all work? How is it so much that he feels so ashamed and embarrassed that he's letting on to our neighbors that he's going to work? But everybody knew he was very sad.

It's also for him. It was for him.

You asked me about working for the institutions and working in economics. That had a profound effect to me.

You didn't want to be powerless.

Precisely. How can a man who's decent, honest, get screwed by the system? So what is the system that's screwing him? So I'm going to get fucked by. Yeah. Maybe I think that was a a propulsion mechanism that I only realized as I get older. But to come back to it, I think the people in the institutions of state are trying to do the right thing. However, they will never experience what my dad experienced. And the reason they won't is because they're in the big public sector. So they can hide. They're not going to get screwed. Nobody's going to knock on the door and say, you're gone. And I remember also he worked in this pharmaceutical factory, which is a big chemical factory. And I worked there for a summer when I was 15. And I remember thinking to myself, Fuck, this is hard work. This is proper work. This is actually back-breaking work.

Yeah, where you're in pain after work.

I was carrying crates and crates of chemicals. I was 16, so as strong as I was ever going to be, it was guys at 50 doing this, guys at 40, guys at maybe close to 60, and they're bent over and they're broken, and they're working for the fucking industrial wage. I remember seeing this and thinking to myself, Okay, that's hard work. And you don't want to be doing that. So maybe not an obvious economist. There was a certain amount of triggers. I said, Maybe economics is more interesting. Yeah.

So these three events that you oversaw, and I imagine in some capacity got to weigh in on as much as the Central Bank of Ireland would have been involved in any of them. How did those three events shape your So it's an overarching philosophy on economics?

Working inside the great institutions of state, the European Union, the Irish Government, my only lesson was that nobody's in control. And that's a very strange thing to arrive that conclusion at the age of about 25. Yeah. Because most of us watch the telly, you see Jay Powell coming on TV, the head of the Fed. You think, okay, he's in control. He knows what's going on. And once you work in these institutions, that slightly ephemeral would incredibly relatively satisfying notion that there's somebody in control disappears. And you realize that the world, the economy, the stuff that I do is entirely random.

Can we drill for one second down? Because I just was in a debate with my brother while he was in town. And my brother leans more into conspiracy theories than certainly I do. And we're chatting in the car. I said, David, my thing that I got to push back on a little bit is I've been lucky enough to know a lot of these people that you think are at the head of these conspiracies. I'm like, no one really has as much control as you think. No one can pull the strings the way. Not one person, not one entity, not even a collective of 20 people can. It's way too random and dynamic, and there's too many players. The notion that this person is in control of that, it's quite an illusion. That's just not how it is. What did he say to you? I don't think I sold him on it.

But it's true. So I've always thought that economics is much closer to biology than physics. Sure. So biology is messy. Evolution is messy. The notion that humanity is an animal that arrived at the top of this evolutionary chain, it's a mess. It's unpredictable, and you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone next year. Economics became captured by, intrigued by, infatuated by physics about 50 or 60 years ago. And the reason I think this is what happened, this is to come back to your story about conspiracies, is that economists always wanted to be clever. And in the 19th century, the clever science was biology, so Pasteur and Darwin and evolution. In the 20th century, the clever science was physics. So Einstein, he was a global superstar. And economists said, why don't we be clever like those guys? So they introduced all these mathematics into economics, thinking that the world is predictable.

Yeah, it has the illusion.

To come back to your brother. The idea is, is it possible that one person, one illuminante, run the world? No, because the world is beautifully chaotic. Because we are beautifully chaotic. And unpredictable. One of the joys of doing economics is to realize that at the core of this economics idea is this crazy thing called the human being.

What's interesting is, yes, to your point, the biologists were kings and then the physicists were kings. But there has been this really interesting thing I've seen in the social sciences, which more and more psychologists borrow from economics. All these models of benefit and loss in these games you play, they're all game theory-y. They're adjacent to economics, and they're using the mathematical equations to help us get to, of all things, psychological phenomena.

It's moving in that direction. And psychology, as we know, it's impossible to study the collective human, which economics is about, without psychology, and particularly group psychology. Maybe not individual psychology.

Well, they call it behavioral economics now.

Yeah, and it's becoming very vogue at the moment.

It's persuasive, too.

I think all sciences, pursuits, academia, once it starts to borrow from everywhere else, it's becoming much more interesting.

Agreed.

So I think that economics should be seen bizarrely in that field as a form of intellectual communication about the world.

Okay, so your book, The History of Money, immediately appeals to me. I am of the opinion that we have this enormous enormous force in all of our lives that everyone is completely uncomfortable. I share this opinion with Malcolm Gladwell. He and I will lament often when he's on here. It's just like, how bizarre is it that it's the most powerful force in our life, and it's almost the most taboo topic to ever approach. Your book is great in so many ways because we're going to go through how do we even get here? I think we should start with how we got here. We should start with the previous most powerful invention of ours, which is fire.

I spent 30 years as a monetary economist, professional, private sector, public. One thing that really struck me, after all this, was that economists didn't really understand money. Economists, my tribe, took it upon ourselves to explain money to the world. I remember watching this, I said, Do they really get it? The first thing I was always intrigued is I'd never met a rich economist, which was interesting. They talk about money all the time, but they're not good with it.

It's clairvoyant, you don't play the lottery. Why aren't we playing the lottery?

Exactly. Okay, so I thought that That was the first thing. That was unusual. The second thing is, I thought, what does money do to us? It's sexy, it's mendacious, it's dangerous, it's transgressive. It turns us into strange creature. It's like, this is a mad force.

It creates envy and jealousy.

It creates envy and resentment. But also it creates love and great stuff and imagination. We're animated. It creates great innovation. I thought to myself, there has to be another way of looking at this. I've been thinking about this for about 20 years, but I was sitting during COVID in the basement. We did serious lockdown, and so you're stuck. And I thought, actually, what money is, is this amazing technology that humans invented. We have been a species that has always been defined by mastering technologies, solving problems, figuring shit out. And so if you read Anthropology, you realize that our big technology prior to money was fire. So we We were the species that figured out how to make it, how to keep it, how to use it. Fires change us physically, makes our jaws smaller, makes our stomach smaller, makes our chest smaller, our teeth. Look at the three of us. We are the evolutionary products of fire.

Yeah, there will be a lot of people that are anti-meat eating that'll go like, Well, if you look at our mouse, we don't have the teeth of a carnival or a proper omnivore. It's like, Yeah, because they didn't have fire, we did. And we could chew, yeah. Yeah.

And fire makes stuff soft.

Soft and edible.

Exactly. So that intrigued me, this idea that if the first 300, 1,000 years of our existence as humans. It was characterized by the relationship between fire and us, this clever ape, which is what we are in effect. And that changed us. So we were a pyrophite species, adapting to and adapted by fire. If you look at the last 5,000 years, and particularly now, we have become, and I made this word up, so for the... We've become a Plutophyte species. So Pluto being money in Greek and wealth. So we are a species that has We're constantly adapted by, and we adapt to this technology money. But the fascinating thing about money is unlike fire. So when the Greeks thought about the world, they had the four elements, the Earth, wind, fire, and water. I think money is the fifth element. It is a human-invented element that only exists in our mind. We can't understand ourselves without understanding money. You can't understand the modern world. I'm in LA. I came from Dublin. I'm in a hotel down the road. You guys are doing a podcast. Rob is from Chicago. What is the technology that binds us all together?

It's actually money. Yeah. And so you can't understand this. Seventy billion people in the world. There's no way in the world you can understand us without understanding our relationship with this technology.

You make a great point. The rickshaw driver in Old Delhi, the one thing that assuredly he understands in the same way as the The trust fund kid from New York is they both understand money. That's maybe the most unifying thing.

Can we add love to that? That's not a technology, but that's also a universal element if we're adding it.

Well, love is the thing that gets us out of bed in the morning. Love is the thing that keeps us together. But love is even more ephemeral than money as a force.

It can't meet any of our survival needs other than what it creates, which is a bond where you can create more of us.

It's the most beautiful thing we have.

I don't think we can live without it.

No, we can't. Yeah, I would die. You meet loveless people and you know it. Yeah. You can sense it.

What's exciting for me to talk with you currently about this is we know all of the pejoratives about money, right? Is the root of all evil. It is what makes everyone envious and jealous and all these things. I think there are increasingly people in this country, which I think is only a gift of being in such a rich fucking country, is that people want to do away with it. They really have this naive sense that it's evil. We need to do away with They really need to understand what a tool it's been for us. Probably everything they love about life will find its way down and be distilled into money created it in some way. Let's start in Mesopotamia.

Just on that point, I was educated by Catholic priests, and they came in and they said, Money is the root of all evil. I thought, Well, that sounds okay. I accept that. That sounds cool. But then when you think about it, there was a French sociologist called Marcel Maus. He said something very interesting. From the 19th century, he said, In order to trade, man must first throw down the spear. And what he meant was that trading and money was an alternative to war. Because in the old days, if I wanted what you had or you had, I had to kill you for it.

Yeah, take it.

Monica, you said, Well, actually, David, why don't we use this thing called dollars? You give me $100. And suddenly, you have this technology that allows cooperation.

Yeah, peace.

Going back to Mesopotamia, what is What was absolutely fascinating for me was that civilizations that adopted money, particularly the Lydians and then the Greeks, they seemed to acquire a competitive advantage over other civilizations. I thought, why was that? For example, how did the Greeks, a tiny little civilization, fight off the Persians, which is a massive empire for so long. Why did the Greeks break the intellectual ceiling? Why did they come up with rationality? Why did they come up with democracy?

Because they're not genetically smarter or superior. No, no. Exactly. We need a much different explanation.

I think what was actually going on was Greeks were the first monetized society. The interesting thing about money is that if you start with a monetized society, then you have to count, then you have to be precise. Then suddenly, if you're being precise, then You're being rational. You're being logical. I was always intrigued by why the Greeks moved from myths to logic in about 300 years, because it's not a long time. I argue in the book that one of the reasons they did this is they were the first A monetized society. And a monetized society requires precision. And precision requires you to be logical, and logical requires you to be rational, and rational requires you to question. The Greeks were the ones that came up With money and coins and coinage. And then the thing about coins, it makes money real. It puts it in your pocket. It's a day-to-day thing. You're starting to be commercial. What I was always intrigued about the Greeks was that they, at the center of the Greek cities, wasn't some big palace or some big wide street for soldiers to go down, was the market. They put the Agora in the center of their society.

And once you put the market in the center of your society, everybody can come trading, spoofing, talking, all that stuff. Moscow could never have been created by a democracy. Have you been there? Every street in Moscow is huge.

For parades.

For parades. For parades, for guys walking down with guns and machine guns and shit It's like that, right? Whereas you go to an old Greek town, tiggledy-piggledy markets, the whole thing.

Well, David, I did go in '95 to Saint Petersburg, and driving around the morning, I'm like, Where would anyone gather? There's no cafés, there's no supermarkets, all the things that we take for granted. We underestimate that they're also the place that you gather and be social and meet your neighbors. There's nothing to congregate around here.

When you gather and you're social, you grumbal, you get pissed off, you gossip, all the good stuff.

You challenge authority. You're like, I don't like the big guy.

Okay, so yeah.

It's by design.

Yeah.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

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If you look at these civilizations and people say, Well, why did they propel themselves forward so much? Lots of ideas have been thrown around. I think one of the basic ideas is they were monetized and the monetary mind changes the world.

In Anthro, you spend a lot of time on this, which is once we move to an agrarian or farming subsistence mode, you had surplus, which was a new thing. We had never had surplus. We had storage of food. All of this facilitated specialized labor. Now you could have a cobbler who only did shoes. He didn't have to have an occupation that fed himself. He now could have an occupation where he become a specialist. Now he's going to learn everything there is to know about it in a way that someone would never have had the bandwidth to do. Then I'm presuming through monetization, that would have been all done with trading. Now you have calligraphers, you have writers, you have all these people that are dedicated to something other than feeding themselves. So knowledge is exploding. But still, the trading system is very inefficient versus a monetary system to handle the trading.

The monetary system The trading system is the elixir of the trading system. It's what hypercharges the trading system. And it's an amazing intellectual leap. In economics, they call it the law of one price, but I don't think that really captures what it is. But the idea that the three of us could align upon a notion of value. So you want this, you want this, I want this. And rather than discuss it and convince each other that we're wrong, we say, okay, here's a piece of coinage That settles the discussion. So if you think about societies, what is so essential for our urban societies to work is trust. You go to a café, you turn up, say, Could I have a flat white? The geeser says, Yeah, fine. He knows nothing about you, Monica. He doesn't know your track record, doesn't know who you are, doesn't know where you're from. But because of the dollar, that's sufficient trust between the pair of you to trade. And so you click on your phone and it's done. Money amplifies trust and Trust is essential for us to live in complex societies because we have to trust each other.

So what you're seeing is the introduction of money had this incredibly constructive way of all humans, strangers dealing with each other. And once you start dealing with strangers, you start sleeping with strangers, you start hanging out with strangers, you start mixing with them, you've got exposed families, and you're into the world that we begin to understand as the urban society that we Where does that come from.

Yeah. Don't you think there's an argument for it engages distrust? Because if you're making the price, if I'm trying to buy something from you and you're like, It's $10, and I'm like, But it's not... Dax is having this happen right now with the Christmas light Go on.

What's happening?

I got a bid to install Christmas lights.

And it's so much money. And he's like, It's not that much. It cannot be that much money to do this.

To install a few lights.

Right. And so he's like, I don't trust you because you've decided to up the charge, maybe because you know it gets me and I have money or whatnot. So I feel like money-uels a distrust.

Think about this in another way, Monica. I agree with you, but the price sets the signal to you, I don't trust you. So in the prices, all this information, can you imagine the guy who's ever been stolen? Let's say the Christmas guy, Christmas lights guy. Okay, the Christmas lights.

Santa Claus.

Santa Claus, right. You're thinking, Okay, I don't really trust you. But actually, what triggers your lack of trust is the price. In the prices, all this information in one number, this is where economics is fascinating. In one number, Monica says, Shit, nah, I'm not having that. Then you begin the process of the negotiation. And then you will arrive at this conclusion of whether it's right or wrong. But my point is, it's money expressed in a number, which is a price that triggers whether or not you trust somebody. And that's a fascinating thing.

Yeah, it is.

Because it's such an amazing shorthand for everything.

Let's talk, though, a little bit about messetaking because once we have a monetary system, we get immediately some very abstract things built on top of it, which would be credit. The first person in human history to be written about is a guy borrowing, essentially, barley to brew beer.

So he's a guy called Kushim. So it's the first name we know has been written down was a dude called Kushim. And the history of the world. And the reason his name... So you think it's some great God or some great storyteller.

A hero from town.

No, he was a home brew hustler. Could easily be from here in LA, okay? A guy doing his thing. And you think, okay, what was he doing? And then you realize that he was borrowing money from somebody else in order to make beer to pay that dude back in a year's time.

Two and a half years?

Two and a half years. The rate of interest was 33 %.

That's pretty high. It seems deep to us now.

But again-Tiny window of time, though. Tiny window of time. And that's what I found fascinating about doing this. I can now feel what Cushy, this guy, felt at night waiting for the harvest. So he needed a good harvest so he could get cheap cereal to pay back the dude. And then you realize money makes the ancient really modern. Because if we look back at ancient history, like old Irish history, there'd be knights and big chieftains. It's not real for us. Whereas Cushiem, you can see the dude. He's got a mortgage to He's like, Shit, I don't have money. I've got these guys paying. I have the taxman on my back. And that's what I found fascinating.

But it introduces this concept, which I love how you articulated it, which is credit is being able to spend the profits of tomorrow Tomorrow Today, which is fascinating. Again, this is such an abstraction, and this is such a paradigm shift. This opens us up to an unimaginable world of potential because you can spend the money, the profits of Tomorrow Today.

The potential profit.

Yes.

It's an amazing thing, right?

And we can't grow without that.

Money allows us to travel in time, and that's a really essential thing to grasp.

Look how cool that is.

So for example, people listening to the podcast will have a mortgage They go to the bank, they buy a house. A mortgage, in effect, is painting a picture of who you're going to be in 30 years time. And everybody believes this. And the rate of interest is the The price at which we decide is the risk. It's an amazing idea. You're traveling in time all the time with finance. As you said, you're borrowing from tomorrow from an unimagined tomorrow and an unpredictable tomorrow for reality today. That's why credit and interest rates are so much more fascinating than economists talk about, because what you're actually doing is you're traveling in time. You're projecting into the future. The three of us have no idea what's going to happen in an hour's time. So we're painting a picture of the person we're going to be over the next 30 years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That opens up the world of possibility.

In the book, I call money magic because it is like magic. And what's more magical is we all suspend our critical faculties to imagine a future with money. And that I find not just fascinating, it's just I find really electrifying.

Minimally, it's very optimistic saying, I believe it's going to work out in the end to the degree that I'll take this risk.

But this is the thing all of us human moments are programmed to be optimistic, which is why pessimists are so unusual.

Well, that's when you have depression, when you think the world will be worse.

Why do you get out of bed in the morning? You get out of bed in the morning because in some little part of your head, you think tomorrow or today is going to be better than yesterday. It's what doctors call your biological arrogance, which is that we are going to be better today than we were yesterday. And we know biological arrogance is ridiculous notion because we're all going to die.

We're all getting closer the other way.

We should be biologically We're pessimistic, but we're not. And that is a beautiful, elemental part of humanity. And I think money, to the extent that it is this amazing technology, animates that.

That's why I can't believe we don't talk about it more. It is this incredible power. And it's not without its warts. But I do think people, without the awareness of how much it's given us, and you're only aware of the warts, which those are very visible, you could really throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I would urge people to really understand the relevance in our life, in our culture, in our expansion.

And why it's so emotional.

Money is complex because we are complex. Because money is all about humanity. And we're weird. We're odd and we're different. Our brains are weird. And therefore money is unusual.

Yeah. So it gives us writing. It gives us this new paradigm of, again, spending tomorrow's earnings today, which allows for growth and investment and hope, and it allows for trust. Okay, so you give us the Greeks, right? And they become probably the the best sales pitch for money. What then did the Romans... You say the Roman Empire was built on credit. How did they take what the Greeks did and then expand it?

For example, if you watch a movie like Gladiator, you think the Romans, it's all about killing Christians or killing animals or fighting. Big armies, all that stuff. Big muscular guys, beefy guys, buffed up guys walking around with shields. Then you realize, okay, well, what was actually fueling this whole thing? What were they doing it for? What were the Romans conquering Syria for? What the Romans conquering North Africa for? Why did the Romans go to Britain? They were looking for resources. Now, why were they looking for resources? Because it was an empire built on credit.

Tomorrow had to be more profitable than today.

Yeah, exactly. They have this great expression called, 'pecunia non-olette', which means money does not smell. The Romans had this, and it comes from Vespasian, the Emperor, because they actually used to tax piss, urine.

Oh, what?

Because in urine is ammonia. They use it to clean their teeth.

Oh, wow.

So you think about it, okay? So you guys have American teeth. I have European teeth. American teeth are whiter, okay? We don't do that shit, okay? So you guys have American teeth.

Austin powers did a good job at that. No, but it's just a thing.

Europeans don't whiten their teeth. It's a general rule, right? Americans do. Now, why do you do that? Because you want to look younger, you want to look better. It's more beautiful. It looks cleaner.

It looks cleaner. Yeah, I think it's that.

When I see American teeth, I think, they're cleaner than us.

They're vainer, but they also are vainer.

I have a mouthful of those, okay? You think the Romans thought the same thing. Also, clean teeth are a symbol of youth, just kids of white teeth. And so they understood that in order to make their togas whiter, to clean their togas and their teeth, they needed this chemical. So it became valuable. So they used to have these big latrines. I know this podcast in a strange place, but here we go. No, we love it.

We have latrines full of piss, which the Romans collected.

And then they thought, okay, if piss is valuable, then we should tax piss. So there was a piss tax agent, right? That was his job. Or her job. And fascinatingly, the Colossium was built by a guy called Vespasian. Vespasian was a Roman Emperor around 72 AD. And so, of course, you're building the Colossium, so you're spending money. So what he had to do When you're spending money is go to tax broadly. So he thought, let's tax piss as well as everything else. Now, his son, a guy called Titus, who subsequently became an empire, was one of these aristocratic guys. Titus said to his dad, Vespasian, he said, Look, man, we're the Roman Empire. We can't be doing something as derogatory, degrading as taxing piss. And Vespasian responded,. Money does not smell. And what he meant by that is people don't care where it comes from as long as it works. He was slapping down his son saying, Don't you be too uppity. But on the other hand, he was saying, This is an amazing concept. And so the Romans, you see, were this amazing empire of credit. The Romans, like the Greeks, had something very bizarre.

They couldn't feed themselves. So the empire was too big. They didn't have enough agriculture. So they had to persuade other people. And they persuaded other people through military occupation and credit. So what you see is all the credit cycles, so for example, in 2008, what happened here in America, when the property Every market goes up and everyone's doing these things. The same thing happened, believe it or not, in AD 33 under a different Emperor. So what you see is the Romans were like us. They speculated, they bought and sold.

They spent Tomorrow's Money today, and sometimes Tomorrow's Money wasn't there.

They had banking crisis. They had their Lehman Brothers moment. That's what intrigued me about writing the book. You realize this is just the story of us, and we never learned.

So with the obvious success of money up to that point, why when we enter the Middle Ages, do we see money go away? What happened? Why?

Well, in Western Europe, it disappeared. The fascinating thing is if you look at, for example, Indian or East Asian culture, money existed there all the time. The fascinating thing for the Romans, they traded with Indians, but the Indians didn't want anything that the Romans made because it was all second grade. So the Indians acquired gold from the Romans because they said, You know what?

We don't want your- The Indians have always wanted that gold, right?

They don't want your shitty stuff. Even today, Indians hoard gold. Oh, yeah. They love gold culturally. It's a big, big, big thing. So Pliny the elder even noticed and remarked that all the Roman gold that they were getting from the Roman gold of mines in Niberia, but also they were robbing for everybody else, ended up in India. So what you see after the end of the Roman Empire, one of the things never really focused on the end of the Roman Empire was the Roman Empire ended around the same time as as hyperinflation set in in Rome. So I think one of the reasons the Roman Empire collapsed was that the monetary system broke down. And once the monetary system breaks down, you break down the whole gel of society.

Which we'll get to. We see this pattern emerge in Germany. We see it emerge in Russia.

It's a well-worn trope. It's not even a trope, it's a phenomenon. When you fuck with money, you fuck with people's heads. That's why inflation is so dangerous.

Governments collapse.

Just the threat of it, even if it's not there.

It's an incredibly elemental force in our world. So one of the interesting thing about the dark ages for me, looking at the history of money, was money disappears, coinage disappears. People stop inventing, innovating in money. We We'll stop innovating in art, culture, in literature, in architecture, all these things that are expressions of human dynamism. We went backwards. In Western Europe, in Eastern Europe, in the Ottoman Empire, it was by the way, it was by the West. We didn't. But in Western European civilization, we really went backwards. Now, is there a link between the elimination of money and the elimination of culture? I think yes. Money is the gelling agent of civilized urban societies.

An uptick in oppression and subjugation because you have now the feudal system takes the place of this monetary system, right?

The last thing you want to be is a peasant born in eighth century Western Europe.

You're an indentured slave. You're never getting out of that. You can't buy your piece of property. There's no means to do that.

Precisely. I mean, the promise of money today and then, and the reason people want it, is that with money, you can change and alter your material situation. You can go from being poor to being rich. That's what people want it.

Without that, it's just hereditary. And you can't break out of those shackles.

Imagine when money disappears, that hereditary brace or strait jacket becomes even more tight. And then what you see is that when money begins to reemerge from Germany in the 10th century, you begin the process which leads inevitably to the Renaissance, to the Reformation, to European civilization, to European philosophy, all that good stuff. Without money, you don't have it.

Our next resurgence is the Renaissance, and you're in Florence, and they have now the very famous coin. In Dante. The Florence. Tell us how that money created the greatest explosion of art, of literature.

It's a fascinating story which begins in India and is located in the of Sicily in the Mediterranean. In the Mediterranean, in Sicily, when the Arab faith, Islamic faith, literally burst out of Saudi Arabia, if you think about it, they conquered all of North Africa and Persia and into India. And what the Arabs were doing, like all conquerors, they were taking good bits of everything. And the bit they took from India, which is fascinating, is they took the concept of zero, the number zero, which European's Greek philosophy, which is where our philosophical hinterland is, was obsessed by proving things. And if you're obsessed by proving things, there's one thing you really, really dislike is nothing, the void. And zero is the void. So Greek philosophy closed down notions of the void. Indian philosophy, on the other hand, embraced nothingness, embraced the void. Therefore, Indian mathematicians embraced zero, and they exported that to Persia. The Arabs thought, Shit, this is really interesting. So algebra is a Arabic word. You can't have algebra without zero. So they brought this, and the reason they brought it to Sicily is that Sicily was this extraordinarily cosmopolitan Metropolitan Anthropo in the 11th century, where Arabs, Jews, Christians, Byzantines all lived together.

Unusual in Europe. And there, a young man who's now known as Fibonacci, who's the father of mathematics, was the son of a Genovese tax collector. And he went to school in Sicily. And he learned from the Arab traders, mathematics, algebra, zero. He brought that to Florence with him. And that created, I know it sounds weird as accountants tend to be diminished as not particularly interested. Creative. But it was accountants that brought this amazing thing called double entry bookkeeping into Europe. And this allowed European traders to begin to figure out sets of accounts. And this is the elixir of commerce, because commerce needs a technology. Imagine zero and double entry bookkeeping is the software.

How does double entry bookkeeping work? Can you tell me in seconds? Yeah, very simple. Debits, credits. So like a PnL sheet.

Yeah, you take your PnL of the podcast. How much we cost, how much money we're raising, how much of the advertising. What's our net? And then every week you can say, Are we up or are we down? Relative to the next guy, the competition.

It's I'm sorry to mention that wouldn't be obvious. It didn't always exist. It didn't always exist. You take it for granted.

That someone invented that.

Somebody invented it. It's not a natural way to look at the world. We think it's natural now.

It was so baked in.

But it came from somewhere, and it came from the Indians who gave it to the Arabs, who gave it to the Europeans, and then the Europeans doubled down on it. That's what I find fascinating. In a way, the book is about all these odd things that you think, Fuck, that's important.

Yeah. With our remaining time, I would love to talk about Sorry, because we are going on.

No, we do this.

No, it's so fun. But I do want to make sure we get to the destructive power that it holds. Let's talk about revolutions.

Yeah. I mean, revolutions are usually about money. The American Revolution was about money.

We didn't want to pay that tax.

It was about taxation, but it was also about resources.

All that stuff.

We know all that stuff. You guys started, let's say, setting the rules of the game. Revolutions all need to be financed. There was an expression in America, I'm not sure if it's still used because not worth a continental. Is that still used? No. It certainly was used up until the '60s, and the continental was the currency of the revolutionary patriots, which was so devalued, so debunked, so debased that this American expression not worth a continental was something that your fathers or grandfathers would have used all the time. Because the continental was this shit currency.

And that was the first one we came up with?

That was your currency. The problem with the American Revolution is you You had no money. So the Brits squeezed you, so you had no money. So the French lent you a little bit because they wanted you to win, to piss off the Brits.

Because they hate the fucking money.

Yeah, exactly. That's very simple, right? But of course, to pay the patriotic army, George Washington had to print a useless currency to keep everything going called the Continental, because, of course, that was the name of the United States before the United States became the United States. And in 1792, our friend Hamilton comes in and he goes, No, we've got to have a proper currency. And we're going to call the currency the dollar. And the fascinating thing was the dollar didn't exist in the lexicon of America, because the dollar is a German expression called a taller, and taller means valley. Most of the silver in Europe was found in a place called Jóhams taller, which is now in Czech Republic, but then was in Germany. So the taller was always seen in Europe as a currency. The problem for the American revolutionaries was they were using the Spanish Silver Dollar, which was called the real, which was coming from Mexico, and they were using this as currency here. But even though the American patriots were anti-British, they were English. And their real DNA hated the Spaniards. So they couldn't name the currency after the Rael after Spain, Hamilton, Washington, all those guys.

So they said, Fuck it. What name are we going to come up with?

Who do we not hate currently? The Germans seem pretty.

The Germans. They'll have their day again. Don't worry.

We'll get there.

But today we like them.

All these stories are fascinating because they're the stories of us.

Here's where money has to be protected in some sense. So for the people who don't already know, I'm sure they do know, post-World War I, Germany, as a product of the Treaty of Versailles, they get these incredible war reparations they have to make. And the end result of that is that their money becomes completely valueless, which is how we get Hitler. That's pretty well known. I didn't realize until your book, which is fascinating, is that Lenin, after the 1917 Russian Revolution, he said, How do we get rid of all remnants of the Russian government to now try this experiment, communism? We must completely annihilate the currency.

Yeah, and that's what it is.

He just printed all day long as much money as he could to make it fucking useless. Think of the power. That's how that revolution stuck.

That's how that revolution was successful. Yeah. That's the interesting thing. Through money. When we read about the Russian Revolution, we read Trotsky and the Red Army and the battles and the White Russians and the red Russians. Actually, what Lennon did was so much more destructive because he said, Okay, money exists in people's heads, and stability exists in people's heads, and the system exists in people's heads. So if I can destroy the very, very elemental tool of the system, I will destroy the system, and they destroy the rubble. So suddenly, you have no savings, you have no income. You guys don't know how much money you have. If you have money, and he destroyed the Russian society society from inside action.

That's the most destabilizing thing you could do.

The fascinating thing is all he did was destroy the assumption in people's heads.

Got them to not believe in the story.

But that disproves that one person can't have a huge impact. That's the opposite of the conspiracy theory.

You're right. If that person is totalitarian and can turn the printing press on, you're right, that person. But they can destroy Russia. They can't destroy the world. And most of these- Continues to.

It's still this much later.

But you think Russia is the biggest country in the world? Yeah. Physically, it's an enormous country.

Most conspiracy theories think there's a world cabal.

No, there's not.

I'm just saying there are individuals in history that do have to impact.

That can do it. And Lennon was an unbelievably intelligent person.

Yeah, that's so clever to think about.

Scary as hell. You don't want that guy running your country at all.

It's psychologically brilliant.

And Hitler learned from that.

Talk about the air drop that Hitler was going to have.

So 1941, the Luftwaffe, the Battle of Britain. The Germans had conquered France, they'd conquered Netherlands, they'd conquered Belgium, they'd conquered Poland. They thought to themselves, Okay, Britain, yeah, it's an island, but they won't fight. The Brits are obsessed by their empire. That's what's really important to them. And of course, the Brits fought. And they were like, Whoa. And the Brits beat them in the air. So they thought, We can't beat these guys in the air. We can't really invade them. What are we going to do? So you forget that Hitler lived through the Weimar Republic. So we saw the destruction of German democracy from the destruction of German money from the hyperinflation. He thought, Okay, what we're going to do is we're going to replicate that in Britain. So how are we going to do this? Well, he said, We need to have the world's greatest and still today largest counterfeiting operation. What? So this actually happened. This is the real Listen, listen. In 1941, Hitler and Himmler got together and they said, what we're going to do is we are going to have the largest forgery operation ever in history, and we're going to forge British banknotes, five-pound notes, and we're going to air They brought them over the UK, and we are going to destroy the spirit of the British people by destroying their money, because this is what happened to us in Germany, and that's why we are here.

They figured out the reason we're here with our crazy Nazi regime is because money was destroyed. And so in an amazing story, the Nazis sent out to concentration camps all over Europe, flyers that they needed, artists, mathematicians, printers, mechanical things, people who were good with paper, all that stuff, right?

Even to the degree where they had the serial numbers, correct?

The serial numbers, so they needed mathematicians, the whole thing. And so they went out and they found 127, I believe, Jewish men who had been artists, bankers, serial numbers. In the camp. And they brought them to a place called Saxonhausen, which is a concentration camp outside of Berlin. It's only about 15 miles outside Berlin. So they took them from Ausfitz. They took them from everywhere. And they brought them there. And their job was to break the bank of England. And they started in 1942. By 1943, they were ready to go.

They had printed, can I say, the equivalent of $10 billion. What?

Oh, my God.

It was 184 million.

In 42.

The long and the short of it, they came up with the currency. What was most difficult for them was to figure out the paper upon which the currency... They thought that the paper came from Malaya, or what we now call Malaysia. But actual fact, British currency was closed, it was washed, and pulped, washed and pulped, washed, and pulped, and washed, and pulped, and they figured that out. The watermark, serial numbers, that wasn't the hard thing. The hard thing is the texture. So what they did was a Nazi turned up with a bucket load of this money in Switzerland in 1943. And he went, ironically, the bank I used to work for a UBS, Union Bank of Switzerland, which is weird. He said to the Swiss bankers, I've just done a trade in Germany. I think this is counterfeit money. Can you check it for me? So the Swiss bankers checked it. They're big headlights. And they came back about a week. I said, No, this money is cool.

It passed the ultimate.

The guy then doubled down. He said, Look, I know you said it's real, but I'm really suspicious. Could you possibly send this to the Bank of England to make sure that this is real? So the Swiss bankers sent the batch to the Bank of England. The Bank of England came back a couple of days later and said, Yeah, this is stuff. We printed this money. They said, This is our shit. Therefore, the forgers had got it right. So the guy goes back to Saxon house and says, We're in business. And they print it. And of course, the problem was the idea was to air drop this stuff over Britain in 1943, 1944. But by that stage, the Germans were losing the war in Russia, and they couldn't risk Luftwaffe planes because Luftwaffe planes were fighting in Russia, so they didn't have the planes. So they were going to air drop the whole thing. It was called Operation Heinrich. Google it. It's an amazing story.

And that would have been even Churchill would have had a hard time straightening that out.

What happens is, if you imagine, if you walk out in the street here and dollar bills come out of the sky.

Money everywhere.

You're going to put a few in your back pocket.

If it's indistinguishable, I mean, that could have been a tipping point.

The interesting thing is they had the money. So then what did they do with it? The Nazis. So the last two years of the war, the Nazis bought all the art. They bought all this counterfeit money, so much so that they bought Mussolini out of captivity. So Mussolini was kidnapped by Italian communists at the end of the war. The Germans didn't capture him. They paid for him, and they paid for him with counterfeited British notes.

So this money, is it in museums? I mean, has it been accounted for?

Does it exist? The amazing thing is the Bank of England, at the end of the war, was so worried about this money. So worried were they about the accuracy see in the precision of these German counterfeits. And they knew there was millions of pounds out there, that they retired all their five pound notes.

Yeah, that's smart. They redesign the whole thing.

Get rid of the five.

Because they were so aware that this was out there, and it could undermine Sterling. And of course, sterling was the dollar of the time. Sterling was the dollar of the time, sterium was the reserve currency of the world.

Yeah. That's crazy. That's why you need to think about it this way. That's why you need to take inflation seriously.

Crypto seriously. You need to take all this stuff seriously. Yes.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Let's end on crypto.

What we're talking about there is Hitler forging money, basically having his own printing press, not in all sense, but in a sense. All crypto is trying to do is replace the United States dollar.

I think the distinction people need to think about is money conventionally has been state ordained.

Money is state-ordained. Yes.

Crypto is private.

This is the key thing. For example, what gives the United States dollar its potency, at the end of the day, is the fact that the United States government requires you to pay your taxes in dollars. The The dollar is soldered onto the American economic system. I can't pay for a beer in euros here. I can't go to a bar. I can't do it. I need dollars. The American dollar and the United States system are one and the same thing, and they are provided by the state. A state that, whether you like it or not, is democratically elected. You have the institutions, the Federal Reserve. So money is public. The American dollar is a public good issued by the American state. Crypto is private money. It's actually issued by private individuals. And private money means that the people who really, really benefit are the people who print it.

It's a business. It's a business.

So it's not actually money. I'll go further.

It's a Ponzi scheme. It's not even a business. I think so. It only works if people are buying into it.

So for example, you say that. You get death threats. That's also the way money works.

It only works if everyone buys in, but we just have.

But it is backed by the state, and it is related to something.

It's related to GDP. It's related to death. It's related to interest rates. There's a ton of mechanisms to help keep it a trustworthy story.

Three months ago, I was in Kenya. If You're flying to Kenya, if you're going to Nairobi, you're getting to the back of a cab. Taxi driver talks to you about dollars. What's the value of the dollar? So why is that? It's because the dollar is this universal currency that everyone understands the value of. In the book, I compare money to language. What gives His money, its potency is its usability that we all use it.

How many people does it unite? That's its total power.

The reason the English language is interesting is that the three of us can communicate using a language that maybe our grandparents didn't speak. In my case. So we use this language as a technology so we can communicate together. English, if you were to look at it now, it's not the easiest grammatically, it's not the easiest phonetically. It's weird. Knight is N-I-G-H-T.

Yeah, bullshit.

Don't get Dax on this subject.

No, You dyslexic. N-i-g-h-t. I could go on for three hours.

So then A-Night is K-N-I-G-H-T. If you were to invent a language today that the world would use to communicate, it wouldn't look like English.

Although, can I add one thing? We were in India or at Microsoft learning about their AI. English is the most efficient language for AI. It costs 40% more to have AI working in Spanish. It is a very concise language. That's interesting. It does.

I didn't know that.

It does, weirdly now in this age, it has a value, which is you need less syllabus in data entry to convey. It costs more to run models in other languages.

If you think the English language is the default language of the world, the dollar is the default currency of the world. The way I look at crypto, crypto is like Esperanto. What's Esperanto? Esperanto was a language that was invented in Europe between the wars that was going to be the unifying language. Esperanto is incredibly important to people who speak it, but the rest of us don't give a shit.

It's still being spoken?

No, it's only academic. It's only academic right now. Crypto is the esperanto of money. Incredibly important to people who own Bitcoin, and they'll tell you. You'll sit in a bar and they'll tell you.

It's a religion. Yeah.

The rest of us don't give a shit. You go down to the pub, you go down to the grocery store, give me this stuff in dollars. My point is that it's a private scam, which is a function of social media, tech bros, young males, all that stuff.

People with too much money that are We're constantly looking to diversify an inflation proof.

People with no money who want- That's why it's preying on vulnerable people who need money. It's the really rich and the really poor. The rest of us don't care.

Yeah, exactly.

All of its appeal is all of the issues with it. It's deregulated. There's no government oversight. But then when it's stolen, which so many people have had it stolen, there's no one to pick up the phone and call. There's no investigative body that's going to go out and find your money.

I remember it was meant to be out to the establishment. Who are the biggest traders in crypto now? Wall Street.

Governments have been in the hood linked into it.

The Trump family are now printing their own shit.

I'm surprised it got this big here because there's already so much conflict and issue around American health care, which is this, private versus public. A lot of people want the government to take over health care and are mad at the private sector. So it's like, why would you want that and then also want private money? That makes no sense to me.

Well, I can tell you what the sales pitch was. I should be able to move currency between David and I without the government having any sense of that, without them trying to tax it, without them being involved. It's my thing and it's your thing. We should have the freedom. We should have the liberty to do that. That's the appeal. But in function, it doesn't operate that way.

We know that the vast, vast, vast majority of crypto, and I know Bitcoin, it's not crypto, it's the crypto family, right? It's the alternative money. The vast majority of this is still for criminal behavior. We know this, number one. Number two, the vast use of stablecoins is trading between people who already own stablecoins. It hasn't broken out into the world. I think we are looking at maybe the most spectacular heist foistered upon people that we have ever seen.

It's a pyramid scheme. It's a multi-level marketing scheme. It's a promise of riches for nothing. It's all there. And someone's feelings are really hurt right now, and I get it. People have made a lot of money on it, so I don't hate on them. I understand the appeal, but ultimately, someone's going to hold it back, and it's not going to be the rich people.

Making a lot of money on something that's speculative isn't a sign of reality. It's part of the speculative mania that makes us human. Ai, the same thing. What's going to happen when NVIDIA or whatever that share price collapses? It's just a speculative thing. We are in a casino world.

By the way, we already watched NFTs come and go.

Yes, I remember them.

Talk about confirmation buy us. That doesn't fit into my narrative. I would just ignore the fact that there was billions of dollars lost in NFTs and that that's not even a thing people talk about. It'll go away like that.

It'll be the same. Now, will digital currencies matter? Of course, they will. And the state, the central banks, will issue digital dollars. I've been in America for two days. I have not seen a dollar note. It's all cash. It's all cash. So I've been here. I haven't seen a dollar note. At the end of the day, the Federal Reserve Weirf will issue digital dollars, and that's it.

But isn't that what we already have? We have that already.

We have that already, and we're going to migrate towards this. And some people want cash because they don't want to be traced. But as a general rule, the idea that some private tech bro is going to be issuing the money?

I get that you don't trust the government. I get that you don't, but the notion that you trust an individual even more is fucking preposterous.

Hasn't that been proven a million times over?

I don't understand that. Well, David, this has been a blast. I love this book, and I'll tell you why it's a great read? Because it is every bit as much a history book as it is a book about money. You're learning so many fascinating details about history from the beginning until now. So it's a very fun ride, and it moves fast, and you're full of character and great stories. It's wonderful. The history of money, a story of humanity. I really urge people to check it out. This has been the life of- It's been a blast. It's been a blast.

Monique and tax are going to be here all day.

That's a good way.

We have to police ourselves.

Thank you guys so much. It's a pleasure.

Stay tuned for the Fact Check. It's where the party's at.

How was the party?

There was a party last night Last night, Rob and I were both there.

Rob, you better get behind a microphone so I can hear your update, too.

He was mingling and schmingling.

I bet he made a lot of connections.

It was really fun. So, yeah, last night, well, when this comes out, all All will be over. We'll know the results.

All will be revealed, as they say.

All will be revealed. But, yeah, this week has a lot of events leading up to the Golden Globes. Last night was a Spotify by the Hollywood Reporter Party. It was really fun. It was really fun. Many friends of the pod there saw Kumal. Oh, you did? Ding, ding, ding.

Dingles.

Mel Robbins was there.

Okay, great.

A friend of I went to the pod, Amy Poehler was there, but I did not get to see her. She was walking out as I came in. I was sad to have missed her. I brought Anna as my plus one, and she's the best plus one because she's so fun.

Yeah, and she loves free drinks.

Yeah. It was great. It was so much fun. They threw a really good party. Jackie was there. I hung out a lot with Jackie Tone. Jackie Tone? Yes. Fun.

Always a good time.

And Joe. Jackie and Joe.

Jackie and Joe. Always a good time.

Jack and Joe.

Yeah, there's a song in there for sure.

Jack and Joe.

Now, of course. Of course, things can be- Complaints. Yeah. Not complaints. These are not complaints ever. These are just insecurities. Oh, yeah. That I'm just right with. I'm working through. We're invited to this, and you can't go, you're sick.

Yeah, we'll get to that.

Okay. We get there, and Jordan, our old friend at Spotify, incredible man and father. Yes. And husband. And husband. And son. I don't know how he is as a son.

I know exactly because his mom is Tom Hanson's partner, and I've met her, and she adores her, Jordan.

Oh, that's nice. Anyway, Jordan's the best. He was arranging with me beforehand, and he was like, Do you want a car? Do you want to whatever? Then he was like, Tell me when you're pulling up. So I did. He's there, and he was like, Let's expedite you through the carpet. They had asked me before. They're like, I just spit. I'm cutting that.

I couldn't see it from here. I got an eye exam yesterday, so I would have been able to see it.

Okay. Now people will rewind. He had asked me earlier. He was like, Will you do the carpet? I said, Sure. He's walking. He's trying to get me through. Then the man that's like, I don't know, the gatekeeper, but he's just a boy, was like, Only she can go. I said to him, I was like, He's running this party. Then, and Jordan was like, It's okay. I know. I'll, whatever. I'll meet you on this. You stand by this. Whatever. It was like, then it got chaotic. Okay. All right. Because then he was gone and Anna was gone. Then I'm just standing. I'm like, I don't know what to do now. Then from the side, they're like, Go this way. I was like, Okay. Then I'm still standing. I end up on the car, but I'm taking pictures, but then there's nobody- Really quick, before I move on from pictures, what's your comfort level during those pictures? It's so awkward. It's fucking rough. I want to look so cool, and I just don't. That's fine. It's fine.

You were gone so long, too, because we ran into Anna while you were on the carpet, and she thought you were lost. She was in a sense.

I was because Jordan was like, I'll meet you on the end of that carpet.

I was looking for him because there was all these outlets, and I knew I was supposed to do them, but I didn't know how because I didn't have anyone there to help me. Then I just walked off the carpet. I didn't do any of those things I was supposed to do. I felt really like fish out of water.

This is the thing I talk about a lot in here, which is it's difficult for me, and I'm enormous.

You mean tall-wise?

Navigating the scenario. I'm It's a very big man who is not easily rattled. And as I always bring up the up fronts when you go to New York, and it's like, here's this 5 foot 1, 18 year old woman from a CW show, and she has to walk this gauntlet of all these maniacs. And it rattles me. So, yeah, you were one of them.

You're just this little tiny person.

Just this little mouse. Just this little mouse scurrying around the red carpet. Where do I stand?

Yeah. Am I supposed to smile or look seductive?

I mean, even the- Playful or panty I did the pictures, which I was like, Good.

That's fine. But it was more like the outlets, which I knew I had said I would do. I felt like I know I'm supposed to, but nobody's... Someone was like, Where's your publicist? I was like, I don't have one.

Help.

I just scurried off my little mouse self, scurried off, and then I entered the party.

Well, rest assured on Sunday, we'll be together.

Yeah, exactly. We will have a publicist. Actually, we'll have a few. Okay. That will be better, and I'm glad we're going to be doing it together. But don't lose me because remember, I'm so small.

No, I'm going to have two of you little people. Yeah, you are. I got to bounce back and forth. You have a lot to handle. Yeah, it's going to be a busy Sunday for me on that red carpet.

Exactly. Anywho, but it was really fun. Oh, good. It is fun for me to get to wear cute outfits.

Yes, you love it. I do love that part. Dream come true. They did have Ted Seeger's the party last night. Oh, yeah. Fuck, I can't believe I wasn't there.

I know. I told you this already, but they had little Appetizer Bites named after us. Yours was named Dax's Michigan Strip.

Was it a steaky?

Yeah, it was a seared petite filet steak atop a Chris Palenta Square.

Gluten free. Oh, boy. Yeah, I feel lousy now. There's no possible way it could have gone. Because I was like, I got to go. I love Jordan, and I owe him so much, and I got to go. Then I got sick on December 15th. As I've already talked about, I went to New York with my brother and just went hard, hard, hard. I've never shook this cold, even until I got back. And then my sweet, sweet friend from London, England, Jethro came to visit, and he's staying at the house, and we've been hanging out and saunaing together. And he hit me, I guess, Tuesday morning. He's like, Oh, my God, dude, I feel so terrible. I hope I didn't get you sick. I'm like, I'm already sick. I probably got you sick. I'm sorry. But no, no, no, no. It definitely had a new flavor. He brought in a new strength. So it was like a second and some second virus entered the scenario.

Two front wars As they would say.

God, and you're in the sauna. It's like, you definitely got it from that.

We were kissing and talking.

Well, obviously, yeah. But the sauna is really how it happened. Yes. Now you have a new- Really, it started going downhill, and I was ignoring him.

Oh, it's the same thing I already have. No. It got much, much worse. Yesterday, I woke up and was like, I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. Let's hope this thing passed.

We have a big weekend. Huge weekend.

I had made a commitment to my sweet oldest girl that I was going to take her to the go-car track. Now, back story about the go-car track. I took her one time, three years ago, with my fantasy of her starting to race Go-Carts. I took her to K1. She wrote our first session with the juniors, and these boys were passing her a bunch, and she thought she was terrible, and she just didn't want to do it again. I was like, Fuck, man. There goes that dream. Anyways, out of the blue, I was like, If you ever want to go to the Go-Cart Track, I want to go. She's like, Oh, I want to go. Okay, so the whole ride there, she's like, I go, You're going to ride in the adults. You're tall enough now. You're 5 feet, so you can ride in the adult carts. No, I want to ride in the junior carts. I'm like, We're going to ride together. We're going to do this as a team. I got you. I'm going to ride behind you so no one can hit you. I'm going to be running Buffer behind you. Okay. She's like, I We check in, and she's even trying to talk the workers into putting her into the junior.

She's going with me and the adults. There's two different tracks at K1. One's bigger and one's smaller. The first session, we're on the big track, and there was four other strangers out there, adults. First lap was a little wobbly, shaky. Second lap, she started to get the feel. She started getting comfortable. By the end of this 10-minute session, she was totally comfortable in the car. We got out and she was elated, happy. You get times. There were six adults. She came in third.

Nice.

Her time was 34. You got to remember 34. We come off the track, and now I want to teach her a little bit about the strategy. I go to the big map of the track on the wall, and I start explaining to her how to go through corners. I explain the whole thing to her. I don't take a ton of time. Maybe we're looking at that map for 10 minutes. I'm explaining stuff. Yeah. Then we go to a brand new track, the smaller track, and I start behind her. Within one lap, this fucking kid is on the race line the entire time. I'm like, Oh, my God, did she get that quick? That's amazing. I was smiling ear to ear behind her. It was so fun. She really loved the second session. We go back to the big track for our third one. As we're walking to the thing, I said, Well, what's our goal? She said, I don't know. I said, I think you got break 30 if you started at 34.

Okay. Break 30.

She's like, Oh, 30? That's four seconds. We get on the track and we're going. She's just fucking... Monica, I'm not proud dadding it. It's bonkers how natural. We get off the track 27. Wow. I got to tell you, when I go with the boys-7 seconds speeding. When I go with all the guys, and I generally am in first, I pulled up those old ones Because I can look at them on my email. I'm running 24s. I'm winning with 24s. She was running 27 on her first day.

That's amazing.

Oh, was I happy. Then I was completely dead. Sure. Cycling through fever, chill, fever, chill, fever, chill. Then I felt terrible that I didn't go to that party. But I woke up and I have to say, definitely on the upswing. I was like, Okay, I'm done with the fever part. I can tell. Okay. Yeah. Time to move the body a little bit and get going. I know you get really upset when I I mean- Try not to get mad at me.

I mean, I'm a little mad at you in the way that you would be mad at me and you do get mad at me. If I'm like, Oh, my back hurts. I'm like, Why aren't you drinking water or taking this? And you get mad at me. I said, Don't get mad at me. You said, Well, you're not taking care of my friend. That's true. That's what you say to me.

But could you find... All I'll ask is if you could find a scientific paper or study that says you shouldn't work out while you're sick. If that's the truth, I'll abide by it. But I don't think that's the truth.

Okay, it is. Doctors, I'd like you to weigh in, and I'll also find some studies on it instead. You can do some light.

Yeah, I went pretty light today.

But I mean, no, like walk. You can take a walk. But if your body is trying to recover, it needs to.

Yeah, but I have to manage two things. I have to manage the illness, and then I have to manage my temperament, and I just was completely stagnant for two days, and that'll fuck with me. So that's also for me.

I know, but then you're just going to be for eight months then, which is not like you have to give your body some time to really recover. Okay.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, If You Dare.

Now, my snack was called Monica's Standards, and I love that.

I wish I got What's the standards part?

I have high standards. Doy.

Do you think that's obvious?

I think so.

I think of music, standards, Sinatra. I'm like, Do you have favorite standards?

What did you think, Rob? I got it. Okay. Because it was Mel's Permission Slip, Amy's Yes and, Dax's Michigan's Strip, Monica's Standards. I think it was clear.

Are you going to do the update or do you want me to? I think you should read it in its entirety.

Oh, yeah.

Okay. This is This is one of the funnest ding, ding, ding we've had on the show for me.

This is really fun. Also, there's another one. This is a separate thing. What did you send me, Rob?

There was someone sent pictures of the Kmart thing.

Oh, yeah. Your shirt. The shirt I got you for your birthday. Yeah. Someone sent an email. I'll pull it up. This is from Rob. So this person, Stephanie. Oh, my gosh. Reached out. She said, listening to the podcast yesterday in her deck, open his birthday gift from Monica. My first job out of Ohio State University was traveling manager for the KKRAD, Kmart Kids Race Against Drugs program. Me?

I said Sinbad. So there's a photo up now of Sinbad on a lawn tractor that they put a fake hood scoop on, and it's all stickered up with the Kmart.

I guess this is a ding, ding, ding.

I wonder if this program ever... It'd be impossible to measure it, but do you think it kept a single kid off drugs? Yeah.

You I really was affected by the Dare program. I never did drugs.

Do you think because of the Dare program?

Yeah. Okay. Me and 60 plus other post-grads got paid to travel the country for six months, setting up this giant racetrack in Kmart parking lots. See that picture? Oh, I would love this. Yeah. She said, It was a party. We would give kids the opportunity to race a slick-looking lawn mower, and one year later, a golf cart made to look like a Ford Mustang, thanks to a sponsorship from Ford. We love Ford. We love Jim Farley, friend of the pod.

I'm going to Detroit next week to unveil the new Red Bull race car, and I'm going to hang with Max Verstaappen. Wow. Jim Farley. Fun. And Hadjar, the new driver. And I think Ricardo.

Oh, fun. Yeah. Well, we love Jimmy. He's a nice man. We do. A friend of the pod.

I got some sweet Fords I love, too.

Okay. For each child that went through the race, Kmart donated $5,000 to the local Dare program. All the kids and volunteer staff received a free T-shirt like the one Monica got taxed for his birthday. A lot of celebrities joined the cause from city to city, including Dick Clark, Mary Lou Retten, Paul Newman. You have the same shirt as Paul Newman.

Oh, my goodness.

Kathy Island, Shaq, Mary from Gilligan's Island.

You notice there's no pictures of Shaq in any of those vehicles. Not a fucking chance.

He's getting a mini- I know. He can't fit in there. Money Mustang. He can't fit in there. He just can't. He just can't do a front of the pod. Anyway- That's adorable. I know. I thought that was so cute.

But alas, that That is not the- That's not the. That's so cute. Thank you for sending that. Yes. But this, and I'm going to remind people because they didn't listen to the fact check for Walter Isaacson. We discussed our flight home from Nashville. You were seated next to a cute boy. That cute boy started interacting a lot with the gal across the aisle from him.

Then they-I thought it was a meet cute.

That was a meet cute. I was suggesting they were already lovers. Now we received this email.

Yes. Emma sent me a text. She said, The girl you saw holding hands with that guy on the plane is an arm cherry and wrote into AA.

By luck, she happened to hear that fact check.

Yeah, she's a good listener. She said, I was listening to the Walter Isaacs in fact check, and I'm the girl from the January third, Nashville to LAX. Meet cute. I heard Monica recount the meet cute she thought she was witnessing between me and my boyfriend, which is now a very fun treasured memory for us. After listening, I felt bad and I wanted to figure out some way to let her know he I didn't pick someone else over her in that moment. I checked the website as a long shot to see if there was a quick way to send an email and stop meet cute as a prompt, so hopefully this gets to her in some way. The full story from the other side of the aisle. My boyfriend and I were supposed to fly back from Nashville to LA on January second. Last minute, we were able to snag a reservation at the restaurant Locust on the night we were supposed to leave, so we decided to pivot the flight to January third. Rob just made a noise. That must be- He just came.

Locust is great.

I'm glad they got to go. We We had a mixup when rebooking our seats. Instead of sitting next to one another, we were sat across the aisle from one another. My boyfriend saw Dax get on the plane and tap me because he knows Armchair is my favorite podcast. While I was trying to act cool, the girl sitting next to me struck up a conversation, which is why my boyfriend wasn't talking to me and didn't appear to be with me when Monica first sat down. When I went to talk to him, I saw Monica sitting there. In an effort to give her privacy, I started texting my boyfriend rather than leaning into the aisle to talk. I also think people were still boarding the plane, so it was difficult to talk anyway. The irony is that while Monica was building this scenario out, I was thinking two things. One, sim. I just downloaded all of season 5 of Friends to watch on this flight. I was locked into Friends, and he was locked into his book. Two, I've listened to the podcast for years, and so I've heard Monica talk about meet-cutes. Immediately when I saw her sitting next to him, I was hoping she wasn't thinking about this as a meet-cute because she deserves one.

My boyfriend is a little oblivious and wouldn't notice if she flirt with It was also hard enough for me to get attention on that flight. That said, Sam was looking great—that must be the boyfriend— and reading, so I wouldn't have blamed her. I had a crush on him, too. I've listened to the podcast for years and realized I was being a little over the top thinking this person I've never met would think about a meet cute with my boyfriend when in reality, the girl is really just trying to sleep on this late night flight. I did ask him to hold my wine when I went to the bathroom, and we did hold hands during the turbulence, which there was a lot of because I've become a bit of a nervous flyer. I've been with my boyfriend three years, but it made me feel so happy to hear someone I think of as an absolute badass, an incredible businesswoman, and someone I am personally grateful for with Race to 35, describe our interactions. You don't typically get to hear unfiltered versions of how strangers observe you. It's a very interesting feeling driving home from work, turning on a podcast, and hearing that someone perceived your actions as falling in love.

I also have to thank Monica and Dax. In a lot of instances, it would have been very easy to try and make yourself or a friend feel better by cutting down the other girl in this scenario. I respect them for fostering a story that built us up, a story that my boyfriend and I both feel represents our love.

I love that email.

It's so good.

I love it. Shout out to what I still consider a meet cute. Okay. Now it's a meet cute between me and her.

There we go. It is.

This is the locus dinner.

Oh, he still thinks, oh my gosh.

He still is back there rubbing himself.

Their dessert, this is like a shaved ice with whip cream on top.

Is it an egg on top?

No, it looks like an egg, but it's an insane dessert. It's a goiter. I'm still thinking about that dessert.

Oh, no. It's a carbongle.

Carbongle?

It does look delicious. Anyway, that's it.

That's it.

That was a good update. Yeah, it was a really good update. Okay, so, yeah, let's do some facts. Okay, David. He said air travel is new, newish. We forget. Then I was looking that up. We all know that the Wright brothers had a successful flight. That was in 1903. Kitty Hawk.

Great book, by the way. David McCala. Wright brothers' book.

That's great. Oh, nice. But really, it became mainstream in the '50s and '60s.

Sure.

So transitioning from luxury to common transport. So that is so recent.

Of the many things we're going to do with our time machine, the list is so long. I don't know when I'll get to this, but I would like to go back in time to, like, 1962. To in fly Pan Am.

Oh, I know.

First class and see, was it crazy? Did they really pamper you and treat you like you were royalty? That's interesting.

I have a question about going back in time. Do you think if you go back in time, you could die. You could die? For sure.

Yeah. It'd be so confusing because on your headstone, it'd say, Born in 1987, died in 1950.

That's what doesn't make any sense. Wow.

Wow. That's a movie.

That is a movie. Yeah. It's like some kids are going through the cemetery, and then they stumble across that.

It's weird because they were so tight-lipped about the technology that they had time travel, but then they just put it blatantly on a headstone. That'll be addressed- Later.

Loosely in the third act. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I forget. The first name ever written. Yes. All his facts were correct, basically. Sure. I did do some checking, though, because I was like, Can that be right? And then, yes, it was. He's widely considered the earliest known individual name in recorded history, appearing on Sumerian clay tablets from around 3,200 BCE in ancient Mesopotamia. Is algebra an Arabic word? Yes. Meaning restoration, reunion of broken parts, or completion.

Oh, completion.

Yeah, I like that. Were you about to say something?

I was. I was going to say how Lincoln always says, Was that back in the 1900s? Oh, God. I know. It sounds like a joke, and it is, but it's not a joke. It's not a joke. Was that in the 1900s, she'll say?

It's so depressing. It's so depressing.

It sounds like 300 years ago.

It really does. That's really funny. It's a good joke. Okay, so is English the most efficient language for AI? English is considered one of the most information dense languages, meaning it conveys a lot of meaning with fewer syllables. But it is not definitively the most efficient as efficiency can be measured differently. Studies show it has a higher information rate, meaning personal. I mean, that's just in general. So for AI, yes. But languages like Spanish and French compensate with faster speech rates, bouncing out overall information delivery, making them comparably efficient in terms of overall speed in communication, verbally, obviously.

Although we found out when our stuff was converted to Spanish. It was longer. They clearly did not pick up our speed of talking. And it was about 1. 6 as long.

I know, because I think what they were doing was keeping our speed.

Our cadence and our speed. Yeah. And it made it, which is funny because we experienced that right before we went to India and sat with the AI people who told us it was more efficient.

Right.

Exactly. But I was like, it has to be more efficient. Why would it take an hour and a half to say what we said in an hour?

I know. But also, if a Spanish person was saying it, they would be saying it so much faster.

You have to talk really fast. But the computer runs at a standard.

Exactly. These are two separate things. But, yeah, it's weird. Oh, and then I was looking up syllabus for languages. Languages with very few syllabus often have simple structures. Rotikos, Papua New Guinea, having one of the smallest inventories, around 50 possible syllabus due to few consonants and vowels. That interesting.

Very interesting.

And Japanese being notable for its extremely small set of 107 syllables. Oh. Yeah.

Papua New Guinea is one of the most fascinating places for many reasons, but It's one of the places where cannibalism has been well-documented. Yeah, that's crazy.

Is it still?

I doubt it. But that's also where they wean children off of breastfeeding with cigarettes and yet no lung cancer. There's a lot of interesting stuff.

The very It still occurs in really isolated cultures, parts of Papua New Guinea.

It's different than you would think because I actually had a class on this in Anthro, which is like, I think they consumed their dead as a part of-Oh, I think I've heard that. As a respect ritual. Not like, We're hungry. Let's eat one of the members of the crew.

Yeah, it's from Corpses, it says. God, do you think it's like when you go to KFC and it's like, I'd like a drumstick.

You want a finger? Everyone has their favorite body part.

Yeah, you have a favorite part. It's like, Can I have the- Did someone already get the nose? Yeah, I really want the calves. You always get the calf.

You got the calf last time. Do you think as your grandparent parents aging and getting terminal, that you're with them and you're eyeing them like, I got to eat some piece of this guy.

What do I want?

Do you think you'd be distracted with knowing you're about to eat some of this guy? Trying to find I'm like, Oh, that little patch of skin looks really healthy. Yeah, exactly. I hope I get that.

I bet if it's just part of your customs, you really like, it's nothing.

You know, of course.

Yeah. Do you think they cook it?

I should know that. I can't remember.

That was a long time ago. How much money was lost in NFTs? While exact total figures are elusive, the NFT market saw massive losses following its 2021 peak, with reports indicating 90 to 99% of collections lost significant value, leaving millions with effectively worthless digital assets.

I don't even feel bad for those people.

I don't either. I mean, I do.

It was just such a cash grab bullshit thing to begin with.

I know, but people are desperate. People want money.

They're desperate to get something for nothing, which I'm not very sympathetic to.

I understand, but they're just desperate to have something.

I was even wrestling with this last night I was thinking about investing and what percentage is acceptable. Mostly, you have to outpace inflation is the goal. But what's funny is, why is that even possible? This notion that you put your money here and then you just get paid. I know. Ideally, something above 4 %. Yeah. And people are, they're bummed if they're not making 10 %. It's like, for doing what? Exactly. Parking your money over there? It's I'm fucking goofy. I know. And I, too, I'm like, I got to be making. It's like, why are you going to get... You didn't show up and work. You didn't do anything. I know.

It's because it's all comparison. It's like, because that guy has 10 %, I should have that. Yes. It's not about what you're doing to get it. Everyone's doing nothing to get it. Although, I guess in your head, you're like, no, but if I traded, correct? You do make it about your own actions.

You convince yourself you have worked your way into these riches.

Exactly. Yeah.

What happened to your arm? What happened to my arm? Oh, I have a doodad stuck to it.

Oh, it was just a doodad.

What if you thought there was a skin tag? I thought you have a new tumor.

I thought it was a bandaid.

I mean, look, if we do this long enough, I'm just going to We're like fucking things hanging off of all skin tags everywhere. We'll be the first show that went from audio to video, then back to audio.

All right. That's it. Love you. Love you.

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