Transcript of Brandi Carlile New

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shephard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hi.

My voice broke there.

Oh, let's leave it. It's very— because it's a ding, ding, ding. Oh my gosh. It's a ding, ding, ding to the episode.

It is.

Her voice breaks in one of her most famous songs.

Really good job. Brandi Carlile. Brandi Carlile is an 11-time Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter and producer. Her albums are, by the way, I Forgive You, In These Silent Days, The Story, Returning to Myself. Currently on the Human Tour. For dates and tickets, go to brandycarlisle.com. Guys, I loved her.

She was—

this was such a fun episode.

Yeah, I really, really loved her.

And she sings for us.

Yes, she sings for us. Please enjoy Brandi Carlisle.

We're so happy to have you. And I'm really excited to talk to you guys. This is awesome.

I purposely was not around because I knew the stakes were really high. You just met Anna?

Yeah, yeah, she was great.

Okay.

She was so nervous to meet you.

She's never asked in 8 years to meet anybody.

She was like, I have to. She's a huge fan.

Oh man.

Well, I have this thing called Girls Just Want a Weekend every year.

Yeah.

Mexico.

Yeah. It's like life-changing for a lot of people because you get lured into it thinking it's a festival, but really it's like a whole experience. You gotta come.

Okay, you gotta help.

Right, it's all female performers, right?

Yeah.

Are men welcome?

Men are treated like absolute celebrities. Oh my God, the way that we basically hoist you onto our shoulders and carry you around like a trophy. Oh wow, if you come to our festival.

Oh wow, okay, now I'm gonna go.

I love the idea of being merch for just men that says like, I survived Girls Just Wanna Be Cool.

That's great.

Sing, let's hear it for the boy.

Oh, let's give these boys a hand.

That's right.

Okay, I think You'd do great there, Dax.

Well, I just think when men will leave the country to attend a festival with all women or non-binary headliners, it's like, yeah, that's awesome. Those men are rad.

Okay, good, good, good, good. I was reading about it, and you must know that we heard the most sincere and authentic review of this festival from Anna.

Oh yeah, she had so much fun.

And I had a million questions. I'm like, is it a lesbian festival? And she's like, yes and no. Not overtly, but yes.

Yeah, a lot of gay men are starting to come too, which is really cool. There's this like whole contingency of really sapphically focused gay men that are really enjoying it.

Okay, this sounds like the happiest group imaginable to be around.

I think that's why it's life-changing.

It's pretty good.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Kristen has described it— she's not been, but just given all the feedback from Anna, she said, you know, it's the polar opposite of Woodstock '99, if you're trying to think of an event.

It couldn't be any more— In one way or another, it's a response to that.

Yeah. But you saw Lilith Fair when you were a kid. Yeah. You went to the Lilith Fair Festival.

Yep. That's actually what I think got me wanting to do this, was that.

Yeah. What age were you when you went to that?

17. So, so formative. Yeah. I had this one experience in particular where I was just this little scallywag kid, all sunburned and drinking Mountain Dews, like these big refillable Mountain Dews all day. And I like took my bucket of Mountain Dew to have it refilled to the Mountain Dew stand. And there was this lesbian standing in line behind me and she goes, Honey, what are you getting to drink? And I was like, a Mountain Dew. And she goes, you need some water and you're sunburned. And she put sunscreen on my shoulders and she made me fill my bucket. On one hand I was like, hmm, but then I got older and I was like, I need a festival like that, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's like we're taking care of each other, you know, looking out.

Yeah, that is the opposite of Woodstock.

Exactly. It does make me think what you tell your children when you have children, which is like, okay, if you're alone You find a police officer. Yeah, you cannot find a police officer, which you likely will not. Find a woman with kids.

Yeah, that's what I said. We say find a mom. Yes, exactly.

A single woman. Keep going down.

Find a lesbian if you can't find one.

Actually, the last is like, find a dude in a Corvette with his shirt off.

Yeah, you might as well just run into the street.

Um, where was the Lilith? Was it in Gas Works Park?

Oh, good question. You know Seattle.

I've drank in a lot of 40s at Gas Works.

Okay.

Yeah, I dated a girl for 9 years that was from Marysville. Okay. Everett?

No, it's at the Gorge.

Oh, perfect.

In fact, that's where it started, 1997.

Perfect.

And that was the year Tracy Chapman was on that lineup. Sarah and the Indigo Girls. I mean, it was amazing. Erykah Badu was on there. Sinead O'Connor was there the year I went.

I love Erykah Badu.

Oh my God.

Ravensdale. Ravensdale. A lot of Dales in that area.

There might be a Dale or two.

Yeah, there's a Dale or two out there. Now, Ravensdale, it seems almost impossible because it's 28 miles from Seattle, yet it has a population of 500 people.

Well, Seattle's like that. It's a bit like Anchorage in a way, where you can land in Seattle, get yourself like the most delicious silky cappuccino you've ever drank, and then half an hour later see a bear.

Yeah, it'd be potentially lost.

Yeah, that's what I love about it.

That is cool. The history of the town fascinated me because it's a coal mining town. You don't associate Washington with coal mining.

You kind of can. I mean, it was one of the first in terms of that. Ravensdale is a bit of a subsidiary of another town called Black Diamond, which is a neighboring town, and actually Loretta Lynn lived there.

Oh wow.

Yeah, for a time. And yeah, when I was a kid, we were running around, there's coal mines everywhere. You got to watch out for mine shafts and everything. Yeah, in fact, I got my last spanking for playing in a mine shaft.

Oh gosh, I'm so jealous. I would have loved a mine shaft when I was a kid. We liked rock quarries because there was water in there.

Same.

And mine shafts, they got water in them too.

I bet.

But they're bottomless.

Okay, so you like to flirt with danger. If you're playing over there, you're a rascal a little bit.

I would stand far away.

I think ferals, the right word, right? I think we need— okay, so I grew up in a rural area too, and I will say it's not necessarily what I wanted for my kids, but boy do I cherish the amount of— we were just lighting stuff on fire. I mean, you're allowed to do whatever came across your mind because there's no supervision and there's no one around to catch you.

What parts of it don't you want for your kids? I—

again, this is probably rooted in all my own personal stuff, but it's like too much privacy out there, too many places to hide. And just like I couldn't get caught lighting shit on fire, adults weren't getting caught for stuff. And there's a general— that part of it I don't love.

Yeah, no, you're exactly right.

Look, and again, I would love to see Dad on this, but where I was from, we had to have over-indexed. We had a serial killer. It's a small town. Every single person was molested I know. I just feel like it's safer here.

Yeah, we don't do sleepovers.

Yeah. A lot of people don't anymore.

It's amazing. That is something about our generation, having realized that maybe we all had too much freedom, whether we lived in a rural area or not. Yeah.

Yeah.

I was trying to explain that. I would be like, we would get on our bikes, it would be 8 o'clock in the morning, and we would maybe come home at some point after dark, and no one knew where we were, how we were getting money or candy.

Weren't even curious. Didn't even ask you what your day was like.

Nope.

Yeah, it's crazy.

And back to what's dangerous about it is like, I know you know, because I had it a million times. If my kids run into somebody dicey on the street, which they do, it's LA, there's a bunch of homeless people, they always have someone in sight they could yell to. How many times when you're a kid and you're out in the woods or you're somewhere and you come across an adult, like a a sold adult, and it's freaky. You know, there's nobody around, and this weird adult's in the woods for some reason too. You have a lot of those moments when you grow up, I think, rural.

I do. And I didn't experience any significant traumas, but I can see the near misses now. How many times I got close to my battleship. Yeah, it's crazy. Like, I remember getting in this guy's truck that was like the town scary guy, but he told me that there were trout biting in this quarry. And I was like, no, that's an empty pond. It's full of water. And he's like, no, there's a stream that's dumping kokanee into it. I'll show you right where they're biting. And I was like, I shouldn't get into your truck, but I want those kokanee.

I can't imagine loving fish.

And I did.

Like, that's what you people do to go get drugs. Like, I don't trust this guy, but fuck, I do want coke. Kokanee.

Kokanee.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

No, I did. And it was fine. But I mean, near miss, right? Or even that the guy would put a 13-year-old girl in his truck.

Oh, it totally is horrifying.

Without our parents' permission and then totally innocuously take her to shore where to catch trout. It's kind of unbelievable.

You got lucky.

I got lucky every time, but a lot of folks don't. So I actually know what you mean about that.

Yeah, it's just that element. And again, I love it because I got through it, and I feel like I got all my confidence from that because I was navigating these weird situations and dangerous ones, and kids were getting hurt and all that. I think you enter the real world, you're like, I gotta get a job and pay for bills. That's fine.

The question is, how do you recreate those kinds of experiences for your kids without exposing them to the possibility of real trauma. You want them to have the street smarts we have. You want them to understand that not everybody is upper middle class or privileged in a way, but you can't falsify or recreate.

I know I'm coming across as the kind of parent— we're actually quite free range.

Really?

Oh yeah. Like, we were in Denmark and we're like, cool, this is Tivoli Gardens. It's huge, but it's all encapsulated. We're like, have fun. We will see you in 6 hours. Here is a credit card. You know, like, go.

And they're 11 and 13. Am I right?

At the time they were 9 and 11. Yeah.

With other kids too, though, right?

Well, they were split up. So yes, Lily went with maybe Lincoln, but Dolly and Delta got it in their mind they were going to set a record on a roller coaster and they rode it, you know, 60 times in a row or something. So they did split up. They were in another country. It's just like, yeah, it'll work out. They're smart. So I do have that side of me too. Wow.

Yeah.

And that's how you do it. You set up those situations of kind of controlled chaos.

It's within reason. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, what were mom and dad like? What were they up to? I think we share an addict father.

Yeah, we may share the actual one. We don't know. We don't know.

I think that'd be cuter. But yes, I got this bum end of that stick.

That would be huge. What a revelation.

I mean, this would go so far.

Well, here's a car— biggest episode of Bob Shepherd.

Yeah, so I grew up in that kind of house.

How old were they when they had— you're the middle? I'm the oldest daughter, and I'm the oldest grandchild on both sides.

So I have all that superiority complex going for me and this enormous sense of responsibility to balance it out. So they were young, they were like 19 and 20, or 20 and 21, like right around there. And they got married while they were pregnant with me. And I'm not sure how long it took for my dad to sort of succumb to pretty severe alcoholism, or if he kind of was already always drinking. I may actually know this, but I'm not recalling it off the top of my head, but yeah, he had a really, really bad drinking problem most of my childhood.

Was he employed?

He was employed initially at the Boeing.

In Tacoma?

Yeah, but you gotta build airplanes, you gotta stay sober.

Yeah, you do.

Of all the jobs we know people to be sober at.

That's a big one.

Yeah, that's high on my list.

You know, he would go in recovery and he would go to rehab and he would get to the point where he would even be somebody else's sponsor. Like, he'd be clean that long. It made it that much more heartbreaking when he would fall.

And would you see the signs percolating up? Did you ever feel like you had a sense of when those times were coming?

No, it always surprised me. And I actually think maybe now that I'm an adult, that's why I never let anything surprise me, ever. I don't even like getting a birthday present. I'm like, "Tell me what it is, and we'll talk about it." Yeah.

Uh-huh.

When he was drunk, what version of a drunk was he?

Just unpredictable. He's really smart, hyper-articulate, kind of a victim of an overactive mind. And alcohol is obviously something that he used to sort of quell that. But because he's so naturally— he would not like this, but quite dogmatic and marinating in rhetoric all the time, his sobriety would become a family religion. So we would be in Al-Anon, Alateen. We would be learning that we'd have the slogans, we had the one-liners. And then he would fall off the wagon, and it would feel like we fell off a skyscraper.

Well, yeah, your identity. All of your identity is friendship.

And the whole friendship group is all members of Al-Anon. Of AA, I'm sure.

I wish. I think that's part of the problem.

Oh, okay. Okay.

Is that, you know, you kind of described that small town situation. No, they were not. And my dad, he doesn't have like an ego, but he's kind of self-important in a way. Mm-hmm. And just if what is needed in theory for an addict to stay clean is a positive friend group, he doesn't believe that applies to him. Ah, he's the one guy.

I can relate.

He can do it on his own.

Yeah.

I'm always like, when I entered recovery, they're like, you know, here's 6 things that work for people. And I'm like, let's see if I can do it with one. Yeah. Get 3 months, relapse, and then come back. I'm open to doing 2 of the things. I mean, literally, I had to get worn down over years before I was finally like, okay, I'll do all the fucking things. What, I have to believe in God? Okay, I need a sponsor.

Well, it's still all about acceptance. Acceptance that you have a real issue. Obviously, that cliché, or that acknowledgement is the hardest hurdle or problem, is real. All of that is just to get to, yeah, I have a real problem. Because until then, you're like, I have a little problem.

I could probably just "Let's do with one of these things." There's an arrogance, like, "The normal people need all this, but I'm exceptional, so what will I need? Maybe 3 of these things?" Yeah.

If any of them. And then there's, to your point, like, have you seen that Leonardo DiCaprio meme? I love it so much, where he's got that kind of face and he's holding a martini or whatever. The meme is like, "How wine drunks look at regular drunks." It's like, "Oh, well, we drink wine, so..." Yes.

There's always someone worse.

There's always someone worse. And then there's that cliché of the rock bottom thing. It feels like the only time I've seen people I think the only way people get sober and, like, stay sober— this is just a theory from a person who's not an addict, by the way, but— is that the shit has to really hit the fan.

Oh, the saying in AA is, like, "You won't change until your hair is on fire." Yeah. And then the other great saying, which describes your father and myself, is, like, "You can have terminal uniqueness." Ugh. Which is, I'm so unique and I'm gonna die because of it. Like, I'm so special and different and unique, and I'm gonna die of that uniqueness, but I don't care. I'd rather be that unique.

Yeah.

It's almost romantic. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. Totally. Feels like it has autonomy. You're in control and it's not. Yeah, you're just unwilling.

He's sober now though. He is awesome.

For how long?

A long time. 22 years now.

Oh, that's awesome.

I imagine we inherited the same thing, which I was just like, you know, it's kind of dorky because it's this thing my dad's super into. And then the spirituality that would accompany it, right? It'd be like Course in Miracles and all these other things that tie in with it. What kind of feelings were you having about about that whole element?

About the spiritual element?

The AA and the slogans and all that stuff. Was it like, "Oh my God, this is embarrassing," or—

I was already more religious than AA when we entered into AA. I was already really into Jesus.

Oh! And were your parents, or just you? You found it on your own?

It's very weird. My parents were, and my dad really was at a time, you know, he's an extremist. So he had extremist moments and is still an extremist. But I had my own path with it. Like, I have terminal uniqueness. So I almost died when I was 5 from meningitis. I just got told so many times that I had, like, a purpose and that I was, like, saved for something. And we were all intense and we were all going to church. And so I was, like, talking to Jesus all the time. I had a whole relationship with this Jesus thing that was kind of independent.

Wow.

I would elect to go to Vacation Bible School and Awana and youth group and stuff like that. I didn't groups of friends based on it either.

You weren't like idolizing some older kid that was super into it or anything? No, it was just that maybe that near-death experience— your heart stopped a few times during that.

Yeah, yeah, I was in a coma and everything. Yeah, yeah, I was just like riding shotgun with this Jesus character. Wow. And kind of always have been through a lot of turmoil, ups and downs in my life, and even things about me that would push me away from it and pull me back and recognize with a lot of gratitude that I have a very unique God perspective.

And you still do?

I still do, yeah. Wow.

What age were you when baptism was supposed to happen?

I think like 16.

Okay, so 16, you were supposed to get baptized.

Yeah.

And what happened?

There was this kind of troubling church actually in our town. Big surprise. In the neighboring town, Black Diamond. They kind of looked for troubled kids that were in troubled home situations and stressed out, you know, and at this point, me and my brother already dropped out of high school, and we were in trouble cleaning busses at the bus barn. And this church bus pulled up and told us to get in, picked up my brother, and I didn't go.

They should have told you Steelhead were running.

Yeah, all they had to tell me was Steelhead were running in the green.

There's God at the church? Okay.

I'm like, okay, that doesn't look that bad. I got in the Horry guy's truck. No, but I didn't go. Eventually Eventually I started going to the church, found it compelling, went to one of those camps. You know, they go to these camps. I don't think you guys have ever experienced these church camp things.

I've not been to one, but kids went to them where I grew up.

Yeah, a lot of friends went.

Okay.

Deeply emotional and transformative for young kids, these camps. These pastors, they're cool. They know how to talk to young people. They know how to play on our guilt and our sense of rebelliousness. And so it compelled me to want to get baptized. I felt that there was just too much in the world that I couldn't handle without making my faith official. Yeah, yeah. So I did the thing that you do in the evangelical church where the pastor, like, prays for everybody to close their eyes, and then somebody comes forward, and I came forward. So I was going to get baptized, and everybody's crying and clapping, and it's all very charismatic. And you spend, like, a week taking classes and doing Bible study and spending time with the pastor and everything. And I had done it. I did all those things. And when the day came around for my baptism at the church, the whole town, which is like not many people, and my parents, troubling as it all was, we were a unit. We were together. We were all a big dysfunctional family. I was out of the closet. I had a girlfriend, a short little haircut.

Can we do one second on that? Being openly gay where I'm from, in a rural area in the '80s, it would have been really hard. Was it different in Washington?

No, I was the only one I knew.

Yeah. Where did you get the confidence to own that and not run from that at all?

It's a really good question. It's just, for me, it's just always been such an obvious part of who I am. When I saw other gay people on TV, you know, like Ellen DeGeneres coming out in the '90s, when I saw gay artists like the Indigo Girls, and I was a huge Elton John fan, and I read all these biographies, and then there were movies that kind of touched on it, Boys on the Side and Philadelphia. I recognized there was a— community or a culture outside of my life.

That makes sense. Your heroes were often gay.

Yeah. And all my friends were going through puberty, and they wanted to make out with boys, and I wanted to make out with girls.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just did. I wanted to make out with them. I couldn't deny that.

But people do.

But they do.

All the time. So it's amazing.

I think when they're not in cities as well, they tend to even more.

They definitely do.

Yeah. I just have always been pretty oblivious to just not being cool. You know, my favorite pants growing up were, like, cow print jeans. I didn't know that people were laughing at my obsessions or my eccentricities. Centricities. And so I was like, yeah, I'm gay. Everybody knows I'm gay. They're not that into it. It's not a popular thing. I'm not taking a whole lot of shit for it, but I'm not being accepted either. And again, kind of oblivious to that, just listening to the Indigo Girls, loving my life.

They probably don't mind that you're gay. They're nervous, is every girl going to turn gay now in the school?

I don't think I had that kind of influence. If I could have turned one girl gay in my school, that would have been awesome.

You're like, I was trying.

Like, when I talked to friends of mine who I adore that live in the mouth the way they'll tell me that like Disney's goal is to convince all kids to be trans. I'm like, I think you think that. Like, I do think you think that. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a real thought.

Yeah.

Um, and I think similarly, like, I think a lot of people back then were just like, yeah, I don't care what she does, but is she gonna influence my daughter?

This idea of a bad influence.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There may have been some of that. I mean, I remember hearing a lot of words like that thrown around town or in my family or in the '90s, like, oh, she's militant "Or she's hard," or, "Are you gonna put it in our faces?" These kind of— or like, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." "We love you, but we don't accept your lifestyle," kind of thing. And that, unfortunately, just had to be good enough for me back then. And I was absolutely fine with that.

Yeah. You weren't sweating that too much.

I mean, I wasn't. I knew it was a countercultural thing.

And your parents, they were cool, obviously?

No.

Okay.

Not really. Same situation.

They weren't cool, but they weren't not cool. It was something everybody found kind of quite annoying about me.

If I'm honest with you.

Right. But I have an inner world, and I also knew, I can't explain why, but I knew I had this life ahead of me that I was about to be a part of and that I was gonna be okay. But I get to this church for this baptism after spending this time with the pastor, having this kind of position in my community that was complicated. I was loved but not accepted, and just everything was like, okay, but not great. So I get to this church and the pastor takes me me aside with this other kid that was gonna get— like, a much younger kid, and asks us both, I guess a formality, "Do you practice witchcraft or homosexuality?" And I just laughed. I just burst out laughing because I didn't understand why that question was pertinent. And I still don't. But that question seemed so ridiculous to me. And then, it didn't take me long to realize that I had to answer yes to one of those things. Right.

Do you think he threw witchcraft in to make it seem less pointed?

Head?

Or you think that's standard?

They think that's equal. Those are the same.

I'm just curious if he's— because he spent a week with you, he probably liked you.

He liked me. Yeah, he knew me. He knew my family.

And he's about to put you in a situation where he's going to deny you a baptism. I mean, imagine he's human. So did he just throw witchcraft in to try to make it say, hey, I gotta ask these standard questions?

I think so. And I think until this very moment, I just accepted it as It just seems like an insane—

how would you find yourself all the way to this point believing in witchcraft? But whatever.

I have a great idea. I'm gonna ask her about witchcraft, and then the homosexuality thing won't come up.

That's a throwaway.

Yeah, maybe the other kid was a warlock, right?

The boy was a warlock.

He's getting you both with the last question.

So he very well could have been. He's standing there with his staff. Yeah, exactly. But I stopped laughing. I looked at him. I go, you know me. I go, you know I'm gay. Everyone knows I'm gay. This— I'm the gay person in town.

I'm like the town gay.

Like, you know, that didn't seem like That was a disqualifying factor. And I'm in a swimsuit and my parents are right there. What are you talking about?

Yeah.

Yeah. And he was like, you can't be baptized today. And I had to leave the church in front of all those people sitting there. Run back to my house.

How did you take that? Were you heartbroken by that or were you angered by it?

At that point, just humiliated. Yes. So embarrassed, which is my nightmare. I cannot be embarrassed. It was about the most embarrassed I've ever been in my life to this day. And my parents, came home, and a couple of their close friends, like Ron and Diane, like, they all came to the house. And it was suddenly I was loved and accepted. It was this weird thing that happened where then Pastor Dude was the problem, and the whole town got mad on my behalf.

Oh, that's beautiful.

That might be scarier for me though. I don't know if I want the whole town to hate me or love me. I'm afraid of both.

I could see why, because they might know what you're doing. Yeah, I'd just be like, oh, I can't live up to love.

I can live up to disappointing you, but living up to love— that's the whole trajectory of this experience of even getting famous. That's still an issue. I'm afraid for you to love me because I'm going to disappoint you.

I think more than ever, that is a valid stressor. I can see why you feel that way, even without the issues.

Yeah, I already had those, and then there's some proof now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That turned that around for me in a really interesting way.

So did they can the pastor? They said, like, you gotta go with the program and baptize.

No, that pastor called me every day for a long time trying to apologize. I just— I think it was just upsetting for everyone. You know, religion and dogma, it's so oppressive.

So did you just lose your desire to even get baptized at that point? Like, "Fuck that. I have my relationship with Jesus, and I'm good." Yeah.

Until much, much later in life. It set me free in a way, I think. Made a lot of people that thought that gay people were militant and insisting on these rights that they're gonna take from them realize guys, we really are kind of in trouble out here. We really are vulnerable in a lot of different ways, and I don't think they realized.

Yeah, you were just like excommunicated from your church in front of them all. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's a lovely end though to that terrible story.

Yeah, I think so. That's the way I look at it.

Something about it is the best part of us as humans, which is like we don't enjoy seeing someone get shit on or excluded almost no matter what. Yeah. And it can change us on a dime in a profound way. More than had you bitched out the guy in front of everyone.

And won.

And won.

Something. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. Did I read correctly that you wouldn't get married until LGBT people—

Until the gays could?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had a lot of gay friends, and my analogy was, and this is a crazy analogy, but it feels very appropriate. If half my friends were Black and I lived in the '30s, I wouldn't host a party in the front of the bus.

Yeah, yeah.

It would feel insane. And I was like, well, we're going to invite like 8 of our gay friends to watch us have this right they don't have and celebrate us. Feels bonkers.

Wow.

Just on that alone, not like a big global— just like, this is wrong for me to do this and invite friends that can't do it to enjoy it for me. It feels crazy.

It's pretty good.

It's pretty great.

But then we were stuck in engagement, um, purgatory for like, I want to say, 3 years, to the point where people would be like, you're still engaged? Like, they're getting nervous for us, right? Like, you can only be engaged for so long.

Yeah, this is a bad sign.

Nervous. And it's like, oh, this is convenient, you have a cause now.

Oh yeah, what time is it for you guys?

Idea, you should go to the festival.

You definitely, you should go to the festival. I really do think it's right for you. But also, that's actually amazing that that's going to always be a part of your legacy. And being able to get married changed my life. And when I couldn't get married, it was a major drain on my life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Can we talk about that a little bit? Because I do think we have a friend group and there's something adjacent happening where there's some religious people who are like, "Well, no, you can be together, but like marriage is a different thing." What can you share about why that's not okay?

About why it's not okay to deny that basic civil right? Yes. Well, I just don't think that any one religion has the monopoly on two people choosing to spend the rest of their lives together under equal protection of the law. And guess what? Some of us are quite religious. It was kind of wild, actually, because my weddings— we had a lot of weddings. My wife is from London, so we got married in a little church called the Church of the Good Shepherd in Wareham, Massachusetts.

And her last name is Shepherd.

Shepherd. Isn't that wild?

Yeah, it's great.

And then we had a civil partnership. In England because they didn't have marriage there yet. It was just a civil partnership. So it was kind of weird because we never had a civil partnership here. We had marriage first. And then England for years had civil partnerships and then marriage quite a lot later. So we had a civil partnership there. And the deal was you couldn't have any mention of faith, religious music. I don't even think you could wear, like, a cross. Like, you had to have a totally secular union. Interesting. Which was an interesting thing because it gave me this perspective of understanding how it can really be viewed through a religious lens. But really, that's all in the eye of the beholder. That's all in how you feel about it.

Also, it just really speaks to, like, little groups of humans do little weird things, and they have little weird rules so that they're separate from this group. So it's like, "This one has to be secular." Doesn't make much sense. "This one can't have that." Doesn't make much sense.

And I watched this, yeah.

They overlap in these little segments of life, and you're gonna deal with a civil union and that thing at the same time.

I think just normal people out, like, living their lives and stuff just didn't realize how many things it excluded. Excluded us from. We had all kinds of issues.

You couldn't visit her in the hospital, right? Like, that would be one in a lot of cases.

That was a really heartbreaking one, and happened to a lot of older couples. Or just home ownership, like going back to somebody's family instead of their long-term spouse.

Yeah.

Things like that. But then immigration as well. We couldn't get a green card or a voucher for citizenship or anything like that because there was no spousal allocation for me to be able to do that. So we had to renew our visa every couple of years and panic every time we traveled internationally. Get detained at the airport. We were always detained at the airport. And when that changed, it was just immediate. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is what everybody else—" You just get to walk up to the counter and say, "We're married," everywhere?

You don't even think about it. I don't think I've gotten some right, which I have.

That's the problem when people are against it. They don't recognize the benefits of it that they're just inherently getting. That's a good point.

Do you like Sedaris? David Sedaris, the writer?

I don't know him. Help me.

He's hit me with something. Well, congratulations.

You just got introduced to the greatest living writer.

Okay.

He's hysterical. But anyways, I was just reading a short story two nights ago, and it was about when it got passed. He has a very interesting— he's older, he's 60, probably 4 now, and he has opinions that are of his era in a fun way, and he's very open about them. He was in England, and he collects trash in the morning at their house in England. That's like his routine. And he brought with him his iPad because he knew that the Supreme Court announcement was going What happened? And then he lost signal for 3 hours, and then he got to a cafe and he opened it up and he saw it. And he said, I don't think any gay human being in America could have not read that and just felt emotion. Yeah. But then his whole process is like him going home to his partner of 20 years and telling Hugh that they got to get married because there's a great tax benefit. And he was like, I'm not getting married, that's for fucking straight people. I don't give a fuck about the tax benefit. That's the whole thing. Month to finally get him to concede.

And he said the actual proposal was like him rolling out the tax benefits, bludgeoning him, and then he was saying, fine, if it'll make you shut up, I'll do it.

That's marriage. That's hot.

Walking into his room going like, well, that's not the wedding proposal I imagined, but here we are. Yeah. And like, doesn't want to be called husband, you know, like this. So there's a whole rejection.

That's the whole thing. How old are they?

Like 64, 5. Yeah, I get it.

I respect that. Yeah, I really respect it.

He hates the word queer, you know, like he's got a lot of things. I know those people. Yeah. He's fun to talk to and he's earned every single opinion he has.

But yeah. Oh, I love those folks. Yeah. Those are my, well, ancestors in a way. Like those are my elders, man. I've got so much respect for the older gays.

Yeah. Yeah. He grew up in a time where he had to leave North Carolina and move to New York City. This is his only shot. Had to. Had to. Front lines. And he's almost unsympathetic when he has people ask him questions like, what should I do? I'm in this town. He's like, fucking move. Move to New York City. Oh yeah.

He's like, just get out of there. They're gritty.

They're gritty. Those older gays. They're so gritty. Pretty. It's brutal.

And they're like, you guys don't even know what AIDS is. Oh my gosh, exactly.

Yeah, they're pissed. And yeah, in some ways, like, they have a right. Exactly.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your gas gage before hitting the You genuinely thought you could make it. You were wrong. That's a very long stretch of highway where you learned exactly how far fumes can take you. And it's not far enough. Yeah, checking first is an excellent plan. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an Allstate Roadside Plan today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary. Insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club Incorporated, an Allstate affiliate. Okay, so Mom, was she the breadwinner? I'm imagining you guys were probably scraping by if they were super young. Dad had his problem, and Mom, what did she do?

Mom was a stay-at-home mom. How did this work? There wasn't a lot of bread. Okay, my dad, when he couldn't be at Boeing more. He learned how to do some construction, and a guy helped out our family, helped my dad get some tools. My dad's actually really good at construction. He still comes out and does stuff at my house all the time and stuff. And just within that gig, you just, you get jobs when you can get them, and when you don't have them, you don't have money. And that's just how you roll.

So we moved a lot. Yeah, I noticed maybe 7 places, I read or something, in some period of time.

Me and my brother just got in an argument about this last night. He didn't believe me, but it's 14 places. In 17 years. There we go. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it didn't seem that strange at all at the time. There were consistent things, you know, like I had the same cat that we took to every place that we moved to. I shared a room with my little sister. I'm really tight with my brother and sister, and I'm really tight with my parents. We're just a chaotic unit of dysfunction that just deeply loves each other. We sometimes disagree about history and how it played out, about and what we're allowed to talk about, what we aren't. But I do believe that my life is my story, and we'll just talk it through. We'll continue to talk it through like we always have.

Yeah. Did you covet money, or was the town so small that even though you were broke, was everyone broke? Or did you covet money and think, how the fuck am I gonna get— I gotta get money?

Oh yeah, I thought about money a lot. Yeah, I still do. Me too. I'm a coyote.

Yeah, coyote people. Yeah, what are you, old coyote people is what we're called?

Yeah. Oh, tell me more. Like a coyote, it cannot help but exist for meat.

You know what I mean?

And like, I'm a coyote for achievement. I'm a coyote for success. I'm a coyote for stability and money. And I do my best. I've got all kinds of philosophies around not hoarding money and things like that because I know where the addiction lies. But I used to lay in my bed and dream about all the things I could buy everybody if I got money. And they were dumb things like four-wheelers. Sure. No, those are great things.

Yeah.

You know, and like downriggers and crap like that. Once I very first started making money, I did crazy things. Crazy stuff with it. I took out loans, like I would finance four-wheelers and get like my dad and brother a four-wheeler. Just new money stuff.

Yeah, I wish I were one of your family members. I love four-wheelers. I have a lot of free ones. I have a four-wheeler problem. But you started singing with Mom at 8 years old? Yeah. So Mom was a singer, I presume?

Yeah, my mom's a really good country singer, and to this day she can still sing really good, like Tammy Wynette. Her dad died of ALS really young. He died at like 50. And that was tough for my mom because she was really young. Needed a dad. Yeah. And he was special. So he was going to be a pretty important patriarchal figure in our family that we all could have really used. And so he left us, and one thing he did was sing country music and play the spoons and sing in a country band with his family. Was he from Washington? He was from Minnesota.

Doesn't make much more sense. I was hoping from the South.

You know, but you can't count out the North. Yeah. Or the West. That's where we call it country and western where I come from. Oh, you're right. Because we just I belong to the South. That's true. And so she, in a way, was able to continue that legacy, pass that on to me and my brother and my sister. We all do music now.

And who was she singing with that she got to get you up on stage to sing with her?

There was like a little community theater in town called the Northwest Grand Ole Opry that I dream about all the time, actually. We were acting out the Grand Ole Opry. We had like an announcer. There was like a little Jimmy Dickens, Minnie Pearl thing happening. Oh, that's great. Yeah. And so she would mostly sing with us, but even though she's a good singer, I always got the idea that it was really more about us than her at a certain point. And she thought it was really cool that her kids could sing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course. You have kids.

Yeah, I got kids.

Yeah, they do shit and you're like, oh my God.

They do shit and you're like, oh my God. I've picked a song to play for you later. Oh, I can't wait. Based on this because of the ages. Tell me now, how old? 11 and 13.

And you're 8 and 12?

8 and 11, almost 12. Okay, so similar.

Both girls. Yeah, yeah. Both girls. Both girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yours are both girls also? Mine are both girls. Wow. Yeah.

And do they ride four-wheelers?

They do. They both have Polaris.

Yeah. Okay, good.

Putting them on four-wheelers is something I'm really happy I did, and in a Ranger, because when they get to driving—

yeah, yeah, right.

Just that coordination and understanding. They should really be hanging out.

I know my girls ride dirt bikes and they drive razors and golf carts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, you start singing now without mom by what age? 15-ish?

Yeah, me and my best friend Amber, we started singing background vocals for her dad who was an Elvis impersonator, and then we would do a song or two in the set by ourselves. And then we learned a couple of Indigo Girls songs and started trying to teach her harmony, which my brother had taught me. And I was singing in another band with my brother, and things just kind of turned into me being in multiple bands and having a lot going on.

You got obsessed with Elton John, taught yourself piano, taught yourself guitar.

Guitar when I was around 17, 16, 17. Okay.

And when do you move into Seattle and meet Tim and Phil? I never moved to Seattle.

You didn't? In fact, to this day, I live where grew up. But I did meet them in a studio when I was about 18, 19. I got some money together from neighbors, coyote out there doing the coyote things. Sure, sure. Got some money together to go make a CD and ended up in a— there's a recording studio there called London Bridge and a guy called Rick Parasher. And this recording studio is very special. This is where Pearl Jam 10 was done, Temple of the Dog, all the Alice in Chains stuff with Kelly Gray. And Rick Parasher was involved in all that. He was the producer of those So this felt to me like the center of Seattle grunge. But I couldn't afford, like, the big studio or the big producer. So, like, an assistant engineer let me record with him upstairs in, like, a little kind of—

Satellite room?

And it wasn't even really, it was just a room. But Pro Tools was just coming out, so you could do that without a big console. And Tim and Phil were downstairs working with the big producer in the big room in their own band called the Fighting Machinists. They were, like, legends in Seattle. They had just gotten the biggest record deal anybody in Seattle had ever gotten, and they were going to be huge. And I just waltzed down there and again, totally oblivious to what I looked like and where I came from and just was like, you guys like cow pants? Yeah. What do you think? Enjoy. Leave this all behind and come with me.

Put on your bib and pull up a plate. Let's go.

I guess that's the beauty of moving a lot. You just have to like put yourself out there. You have to talk to people. You can't really be shy. You don't have time.

Yeah. If you're sitting at home, no one's ever going to knock at your door and go, hey, do you want this spectacular life.

No one ever is. And you realize you've got to make opportunities every chance you get. And I was working as a barista at a coffee stand, so I got a lot of social skills that way. I was working at a grocery store as a sample lady.

Oh, a sample lady! What was your sample? Oh, every day it was different.

It was an awesome job, actually. And then I was working part-time as a roofing laborer.

Oh, I also was a roofer. Really? Yeah, it's quite a job. We're the same person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think my back is still messed up from it. Were you doing tear-off or—

Tear-off and cleanup.

And sometimes I would throw down the tar paper if it was not a slatted roof.

Never got to throw any bundles up.

You didn't get promoted there.

I will say though, I was just talking about this with a neighbor in Nashville because he's a builder, and we were kind of going through the strata of people in the trades. And I was like, look, you've been doing this for 35 years, am I not crazy? We are the worst, right? Roofers are just like worst prison records, least likely to show up. And he goes, oh, by far roofers, they are the most fucked up in the trades.

You think?

Oh, you gotta shit on a roof. In Detroit, we would do rubber roof. You'd be 5, 6 stories up. There's no— even if you went down the ladder, there's nowhere in Detroit to go use the bathroom. So yeah, guys are shitting in buckets on the roof. Everyone's hammered. People aren't showing up.

I mean, yeah, it was a mess. Yeah. So imagine being like the lowest rung on that ladder where you're literally, you're just cleaning up the mess. It was like that. And when you're on a roof and you're cleaning up roofing material, you're never lifting anything properly because you're always trying to keep from falling down.

You're on a crazy angle the whole time.

I think my back is permanently probably from it.

Yeah, your whole day is spent figuring out how to do this ergonomically so you don't get hurt, because yeah, you're on an angle that's different from the angle you mastered yesterday, and you're prying these nails out with this fucking weird shovel.

This has gotten so niche.

Like, no one cares. Who cares? You and I can— we know. 6 other roofers as our audience. The 6 roofers who are sober enough to comprehend this right now are enjoying it.

They're like, to our paper.

How do you, though, woo Tim and Phil? Like, how do you go from— they're the hot shit in town, you're upstairs in the attic recording on Pro Tools. How do you convince them we should work together?

Honestly, I don't know, because every show they had was sold out. I saw them play, like, they were unbelievable. They were very nice. I almost couldn't believe how nice they were to me because they were so popular and they were so good-looking. I had nothing to offer these two beautiful boys in their 20s. And I was just like, "You want to play on my record, you know?" "How's this sound?" And they just did it for no reason. The way I had things going was I would busk whenever I could in the daytime at Pike Place Market, and I had these residencies at night in clubs and restaurants all over Seattle. I'm talking about Duke's Clam Chowder House, Bill Madeen's Ravioli Station in Ballard, the Dubliner Bar in the Ballard Firehouse.

People are coming for the entrée first, and then there's music.

They have no idea they're going to get music. Right. But I did have this little PA system, system that I would go and I would go, hey, listen, I got two speakers. I know you don't have music here, but if you let me come in on Tuesday nights, give me like 4 Tuesday nights. If on the 5th Tuesday night it's like twice as busy in here, you got to start paying me. Nice. And then I would get my Tuesday night at Salty's and Alki. So I basically had all these residencies going, and then I would get down on my breaks and sit with all these people at their tables and have a beer and say, give me your phone number, give me your phone number. And then once a month I'd call them and go, hey, I got a big show at the Tractor Tavern, might be some record labels there, will you pack it out for me? Oh yeah. And all these people would come, and then I'd have packed shows. And so everybody was like, what's going on with this girl? Yeah.

Wow, you really networked your way into that.

Good. That's how we ended up getting a record deal, and that's how I ended up getting the twins to join the band. Wow.

Don't you marvel? I'll be just reflecting on the odds against everyone to make it in any of these chosen show business careers. Years. And the thing I constantly come back to is like, yeah, it'd be great if talent got you there. The amount of hustle it takes, I think, is a little misleading when you're on the outside. You think like, oh, if I'm Bieber and I'm a genius at 13, I'll become famous. And really, it's like, I mean, you gotta fucking call random people you played in front of at a restaurant. Yeah.

And it's really the stuff we've been talking about this whole time that gives you that acumen, like the skills to do that. You can't fake being a Coyote. You can't fake coming from nothing. You can't fake the charisma that it takes to rise like a phoenix out of really difficult situations.

Yeah. So it does start happening pretty darn quick for you, I would say, right? Because you've dropped out of high school. That ship sailed.

That was a bummer. We're not gonna—

we're not gonna— I do want to pause there for two seconds.

We're not gonna pursue anything academically.

I'm done. I'm done. You had ADHD, right?

You were diagnosed as ADHD?

I don't think so. You know something, my folks, the whole thing is a bit inaccurate in terms of like, we're inaccurate historians. I mean, I'm sure there was a doctor or two that was like, "You have ADHD." And now that everybody understands it so well, I'm sure there's some truth to that. But I just didn't do well in school, and I just couldn't keep myself there.

You were restless there?

And I felt too grown up to be there, I guess, because I had all these jobs. Jobs and all these goals and these plans, and I was working it. And I would be working and getting myself places, and then I would go to school and have to raise my hand to use the bathroom. Yeah, sure. I was like, I don't belong here. I'm an adult. I just felt like I can't be here. I'm failing at everything. I need to go somewhere I'm not going to fail. That's what it was. Yeah, yeah.

And your parents were like, all right, I guess that's what's gonna happen. They didn't really have a choice.

Yeah, me and my brother were just a year apart. We just stopped going and just working.

Wow. I just wonder, Dax, if the girls were like, we're not going to school anymore.

Of all the people I know who are successful and working, I don't think any of them went to Harvard. None of them did the right thing. I barely graduated high school. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I think if you— if you want it, you're gonna get it, and if you don't want it, you're not going to get it anyways. I can send you any school that'll take you. It's not going to give you that. I hate to say that I feel that way, but I kind what are you gonna do?

I mean, it worked out. If my girls came to me and said, "We don't want to go to a conventional high school," I have the time and the means to help them with an alternative path. My parents, they both dropped out of high school. No one in our family graduated. Not my brother, not my sister, not me, not my folks.

Wow, your kids could be the first.

So my kids could be the first. They will do it maybe a different way though. I don't see my kids going to a conventional high school and doing that. I don't understand how to speak that language. So I think there will be alternative forms of their exit from their education. But suffice That's to say, by 2005 you record Brandy Carlile.

That's the first album. So you would have been 24 when it came out?

Yeah, I think I recorded it in maybe 2002, 2003. So pretty young.

Yeah, 24. And that works. Like, Rolling Stone reviews it beautifully. They put you on the top 10 artists to watch in 2005. After all that grind, did you have a hard time trusting seen the positive things that were coming?

No, I just loved it. I was so happy. Honestly, I was happy before. I've always felt like a famous singer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, I've always felt like that.

So no, you're like, oh, the world caught up.

Yeah, I'm more gun-shy now than I was back then.

Tell me, what do you think has caused that?

I don't know, maybe just getting older, being middle wondering about relevance. The internet, the way people talk about each other, how easy it is to surmise that someone is something that they're not, and those kinds of things make me question whether this is the gig for me.

It's weird though, isn't it? It's like counter to what you would think. If you would've asked me at like 15, "Let's say you did all this stuff, what would you feel like at the end of it?" I'd be like, "Oh, I'd feel so confident." But yeah, I was in this movie that people give me a lot of compliments for, Idiocracy. And I played a role in it, role that I know I wouldn't do today. Like, it would be too big of a swing. I would be afraid to go try to do what I did in that movie. You're saying that you would— today, if you offered me that role today, I would be like, I can't do it. Yeah, I'd be too scared. But isn't that what we're saying? There's like—

that's what's so weird is like, think about Eocracy too, that— yeah, I could see why. Yeah, I could see why.

Yeah, just, it was a huge swing, and I didn't mind at all. It was far-fetched back then, and I didn't give a fuck if anyone thought it was embarrassing or not. Right, right. And now I would, and it would be harder for me to do it now. And that's opposite of what I would have expected.

Is it because we don't want to be embarrassed in front of our kids? Is it because we're like becoming legacy conscious as we get older?

I mean, I think those are really good guesses. And for probably a lot of people, that stuff is going on. I don't think I'm concerned about legacy. I think what it is, is in some weird way I was inoculated by ignorance and naïveté and didn't even consider what if I look ridiculous doing it? What if this is embarrassing? Seen. Those thoughts never crossed my mind. Wow. And now they would.

Yeah, that sucks. We only get that, I think, for—

I'm not as good as I thought I was. That's part of it, right? Like, I used to think I was so good. Now I think I'm fine. In some weird ways, I'm more confident, but also it's like I tapped on the bottom and the top. What has changed that?

Do you think you've let some of the outside in a little bit?

Yeah, or I've seen stuff I did that I thought was one thing, and then upon reflection, or years away, I'm like, oh, it wasn't as good as I thought it was, or I wasn't as good in it. I've more come to the feeling like, yeah, I'm fine, I can this job, not I'm gonna be Will Ferrell. At that point, I was like, I'm gonna be Will Ferrell. No, you have stuff to lose now.

That's really what it is. You get to an age where you have stuff to lose. When you're starting out, there's nothing to lose. You're able to put yourself out there because it's like, well, what's the worst that can happen?

Yeah, I didn't have a mortgage when I did that.

Exactly. And you have a reputation, you have children, there's a ton to lose, actually.

Exactly. And you're a little bit dumb.

The beauty of not having a fully developed frontal lobe, yeah, actually it helps you.

I put out album after album after album without never even knowing when the Grammys were. And now I'm thinking about the Grammys before I write the song. I don't want it to be that way. And I push it out. I do it. I get rid of it and I do the thing and I go in. But to not know the things I know— I made an album with Elton John. Elton's incredibly encyclopedic about numbers and the charts and how things do. And he knows everything. And I knew nothing. He would call me and say, hey, the record is coming out at this, or it got this, or this thing is gonna happen. And I'd be like, oh my God, tell me about that. Like, what is that? Yeah. Once you learn too much about how you're being received, it can definitely go in. But I think there's ways we can erase it. I don't know how, but I think there are ways we can get rid of the knowledge.

Well, because we have examples of people who have avoided that. So minimally, there are mentors that exist that seem to have never succumbed to that pressure. But yes, if you've never been nominated for a Grammy, who cares? Once you get nominated for one, now we know you can do it. It's yours to not do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what fucked me up. Fucks you up, I think.

It's like, okay, in The Climb, we talk about this all the time, it's counterintuitive, but it's so much scarier once you're at the top of the mountain. Climbing the mountain is hard, and when you're in it, you're like, all I want to do is be up there. But then when you're up there, there's one way to go. There's one way to go. It's scary up there. Nowhere to go. Yeah. And you're more self-conscious because of it.

You're right. It's hard. Yeah. And they say, what's that Miley lyric? There's always gonna be another mountain. Yeah. I need another mountain. I need another mountain all the time. That's my addiction. And they're there. Yeah. Okay.

In '07, the story comes out. How did you end up working with T-Bone Burnett? And is he as magical as I'm led to believe from film and television? He seems very special.

Yeah, he is very special. When I started recording our songs, me and the twins' songs, we had like 40-something songs, 42 songs maybe, over the course of doing these residencies together and working together and practicing. And who we met first was Rick Rubin. Oh, wow. Okay. And Rick Rubin tried to sign us to American Recordings, but there was a lot going on. Like the Johnny Cash stuff had just come out and he was moving and a bunch of record label stuff didn't work out. But what he told me was, these are your good songs and these are your not so good songs. He divided them in half and he goes, this is a really great record. This is something you can record if you need to make money and find a way to get yourself through the next couple of years until I get settled in at my new record label.

Did you agree with that assessment?

Yeah. Then I was really open to suggestion at that point. From him. So I divided those things in half, and I went in and recorded what became Brandy Carlile as my own collection, basically, of demos for me to sell at my shows. And then later on, I got the record deal in 2005, and they said, well, okay, we know your good record is The Story. This album you have set aside.

Mythical has yet to come out.

Let's put this other one out in the meantime while you kind of get your chops and get out on the road and get good. So we did, and that became Brandy Carlile. That was my not good songs. That was my album of rejects.

And you toured for 2 years on that, right?

Recorded for, like, several years on that. And then it never really worked out with Rick Rubin. And I met T-Bone Burnett in a hotel bar in New York City, and we got to talking about country music. We hit it off, and we agreed that we were gonna leave the country and make a record together in some other country. That record was The Story, and the whole thing is recorded live in one room with one band to tape.

11 days or something?

Something really quick. Yeah. You can't get T-Bone Burnett to stay longer than that. Yeah. He moves quick.

He moves quick. What was going on with T-Bone, the live was a departure from what was being done normally, right?

It was, but it was a recent departure because like I was saying, Pro Tools was only kind of new and there were certain editing techniques that are second nature today that you hear all the time without realizing you're hearing them that we didn't really have refined or have a lot of access to back in that exact moment. You couldn't have used Auto-Tune or Melodyne and not heard it. You'd hear it. It wasn't as finessed as it is now. Compression too. Everything was in a time when you're hearing, like, really unaltered human voice and not a lot of isolation.

Your voice cracks on one of the tracks, right?

Yeah, on the story, in a significant way. And a lot of times I'm playing guitar and singing at the same time, and those things can't be separated in those recordings. And so we recorded to tape, which is another whole other cumbersome but beautiful-sounding way to record.

And to edit on it is so much more time-consuming.

Yeah, they actually splice it and cut it. So you have to make big decisions about accepting imperfection. Perfection.

Yeah. So how about that moment with the voice? When you first heard it, were you like, "We can't have that," or were you like, "Oh, fuck, this somehow has a magic to it"?

It felt and sounded so wild to me when I made that sound that I almost laughed and just ended the take for everyone. But I knew that everybody was playing so good, and I didn't want to throw it for the drummer. And so I just sang through it thinking, "Well, if they love the first half, they can splice a second half on from another one." When I ended the song, T-Bone Burnett comes running through and— you know, he doesn't run. But he comes up there, And he throws the door open on my ISO pod, and he goes, "That was the moment of the record. That was the moment of the record." Oh, wow. And I go, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "Wait till you hear it." Wow.

Powerful. That's cool. That is so cool. So that album, The Story, really changes kind of everything. Yeah?

No. At the time, it really didn't. I think it didn't break the top anything. Well, you get songs on Grey's Anatomy.

They sing it.

That started it. Happening. So Grey's Anatomy started showing up really early, like during the Brandy Carlile thing. And this sort of relationship happened with them where they found that my music was going well with their programming. I even recorded a couple of songs just for them. Wow. Yeah.

In one season, they had 3 of your songs, and then their musical episode, they sang one of your songs.

Yeah, "The Story." It helped everything. It helped pay the bills. It helped our band. And what an iconic show.

Oh my God. I was obsessed with it and specifically the music, just picking out every song.

They were like Maureen Becomes Eclectic. They were like a gateway to great music.

Exactly like Maureen Becomes Eclectic. Exactly like Garden State. Yes. There was this kind of really cool thing that happened around sync licensing at that time. And I just happened to be a part of it. I still feel the ripple effect of that. And I love that show.

It's a great show.

What size venues were you playing on that 2 years of touring with Brandi Carlile? Carlyle? Theaters, dude, tiny bars.

Well, if I got to open for somebody, theaters, but a lot of bars and clubs and just kind of standing rooms and stuff like that.

Loved it. Saw all kinds of fun stuff, I bet.

So all kinds of fun stuff. I never got on a plane until I was 17 years old, so I saw the whole country with these two twins in my own van. We should take our kids some more bars, right? That actually teaches how to get by in a bar.

Yeah, if you can survive there, litmus test for the whole world. Yeah, true. Every weekend with my father was spend the entire day at the Dirty Dirty Duck Saloon from like 8 AM till 2 in the morning. Dirty Duck, that was his spot.

Tell me you met Doug the Dirty Duck. I gotta know who Doug is.

Dirty Doug. Probably was owned by a dirty duck.

Yeah, sure.

Okay, so when you finally got to work with Rick Rubin, how was that? That could go either way. If he met you years before and saved this and these are great, this could go either way.

I found it tense.

I'm intimidated by him a bit. We interviewed him and I was like, he's got some mojo, but the mojo So for me, it's intimidating.

I think I found it like that. If I had to really unpack it on the spot, I would say that him being the deciding force between whether something was great or not great really rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah. He actually used the word "great" all the time. And I felt that that word was subjective. I was young enough to where the punk rock artist in me needed that word to be subjective, and I needed to be the determining factor between what I was making and whether it was great or not great. And I think if he were sitting here today, he would probably giggle and tell you that that's probably what he doesn't like about working with young artists, is that they have to be the determining factor of great or not great. At the same time, I wouldn't take that from myself for anything. So we butted heads really bad. And then later on in life, came back together and now are very good friends. But I still think he's a complicated man and tough to work with on that level.

Yeah, I only hung around there for a minute when the Avets were recording there because I'm friends with Seth.

Oh cool, I'm really good friends with those guys too.

Yeah, I noticed you guys have played together. Well, but if I had to really isolate like what insecurity in me is triggered by him— yeah, tell me— there's something almost religious about him and I'm like, oh, I'll never grasp his thing that he's got and therefore he doesn't value me, you know, whatever. He's got some toehold on something I don't even believe in and so there's a chasm between us and he'll I'll never think I'm special, and I'll never think he understands me. I don't know. Well, that's the same thing.

His, like, serenity and his knowledge of what's great and not great is almost religious.

It's like an aggressive serenity. Dude. Dude, that's it.

That is it. It's an aggressive serenity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just also— he knows himself.

And I think the dude's a genius. Let me be clear as day. I think the dude's a genius.

Yeah. He knows himself very well. In the middle of our interview, he was like, it's cold in here. We need to turn down the— he didn't say, can we? No, it was like very— we were like, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then it like really rattled us for the next, like, however many minutes. 'Cause it never happened. It had never happened. He like really just knows what he wants. He says it. He's not scared of you. Not a people pleaser.

No. Like what we would say is, hey, are you guys cold?

Exactly.

Or, you know what I mean? We would like, we would ask for the peanut gallery to like chime in. I'm in and make a group decision.

But there's merits of both. I call myself a little bit of each.

I have to admit that the first thing I said when I walked in here today was, can we turn the air conditioning down?

No, yes. Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's totally a babe thing.

It's totally a babe thing. I guess you passed some of it on to me.

You know, it's a legit thing to say. It's just the manner in which she rolled it out was unlike any version I had ever heard someone advocate for themselves.

One time I went up to, okay, and this is the other thing is when we were making that song, second record, he didn't come to the studio not one time. And I live in Seattle, and I had to live in LA to make this record so I could be near him. But then I would have to take the record, which we recorded onto tape, up to his house once a week, sit there and play for him all the work I had done, and then he would make suggestions. And so at one point he asked for me to double a guitar solo in length. That sounds challenging.

In this song.

Impossible.

Nara, I say impossible.

Yeah. So I said, oh, well, we're cutting the tape. We can't do that. And he goes, I'm sure you'll find a way to make it happen.

Yeah. Did you? No. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Couldn't be done. But it was like that aggressive serenity was such a descriptive factor. Anyway, I don't think it's that way anymore. In fact, I worked with him recently on something and yeah, he was very direct, but I enjoyed it.

Yeah, it's cool. Something about him triggers some insecurity in me. The dude's fine and he's a genius.

And he knows it. Yeah. Quietly, silently.

And I may be jealous of that too.

Yeah, maybe. If you ask him, because he doesn't play an instrument or know how to run any of the equipment, what qualifies him as being— The guru. That he is. And he just says very confidently, my taste. I gotta respect it.

Yeah, I know. I do. And the results.

Yeah. He has them. Can't deny that.

Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. 2014, you sing the national anthem at a Seahawks game. You've performed at this point 1,000 times in front of people. Oh yeah.

In my mind, I'm like already Celine Dion.

Right, right. But do you get nervous when you go perform there? For some reason, no. Good. I like that. Yeah.

And I actually sang the national anthem a lot in the early part of my career for different sporting things in Seattle. Battle. I sort of had, like, a program. I knew a key, like, I had a key that I do it in, and I knew a way to keep the key in my head so I didn't lose it when I got out there. I knew how to manage delay in the stadium. I knew how to use that song as, like, a wrestling move.

It's a complicated song, no? Like, there's something about— it can get away from you, that song, really easy, right? People start too high and they got nowhere to go.

Is that what it is? Fear in their eyes?

Like, just like, look at their eyes. Out of octaves.

Don't even listen to where they started, just look at their eyes. Oh, God.

Oh my God. Okay, so let's go to The Firewatcher's Daughter, 2015. This is the first Grammy nomination you get. Yeah. So you've been at it now for 10 years. Mm-hmm. What do you think you picked up between Brandy Carlisle, the first album, and The Firewatcher's Daughter? Do you think it's all the same? They just slept on you before, or do you think you learned something at some point that made that a lot logical conclusion?

Lots and lots of live experience, lots and lots of road time and people skills, understanding how to interact with people but hold on to myself. A lot of production know-how because I had worked with T-Bone Burnett and Rick Rubin on two separate things. And then also all these ancillary producers, like I had gone in with John Goodmanson and Tony Berg, and I'd done a lot of projects with other really big producers. And me and the twins, we came from a big producer, Rick Prosser. So I had like a lot of production ideas and a lot of beliefs about leadership. And when we went in and made Firewatcher's Daughter, it was, for better or worse, self-produced with a really powerful and amazing engineer called Trina Shoemaker, who was really co-producing when I look back on it now. And so, I felt that we were like almost an indie band. We were living like an indie band and operating like an indie band, and just fine with it. Doing really, really well and believing we were doing really well.

So, when you got that nomination, were you shocked, or did you feel like, feel that coming?

I was shocked. Nobody had ever even talked to me about the Grammys. I thought it was like a TV show that my mom would let me stay up late for because Whitney is going to hit that note live, you know? And so basically, I was on an airplane and I got a text message from ATO, the like indie label we were on at the time. This guy John, he texted me and he said, congratulations on your Grammy nomination. I was on the label with Brittany Howard, and I knew she was always getting this stuff, so I thought, oh, this is Brandy, I said to him. It's been a mix-up. I was speechless. I had no idea even when they were, when the nominations were coming out.

Did you cry? No. Didn't mean to insinuate you were a— No. A little baby. Yeah, yeah.

No, I'm just thinking about it because the Grammys have made me cry a couple of times, but at this point I didn't cry yet. But I was just like, oh, that's a level of making it that I hadn't even considered. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So yeah. You end up somewhere bigger than you dreamed.

Yeah. Yeah, so I went.

It was awesome. Well, you've been back a bazillion times. Just wondering, after you've already had them, does the reaction turn to more like relief? I think it does.

Isn't that weird? It does because the team works so hard for it. You so want to be able to bring that home for everybody else. And then there becomes an expectation. And, you know, if you don't get it, does that mean that something's over? Like when Elton was involved in this this last one for Elton. I've never wanted acknowledgement more in my life than I did for Elton. Like, he hasn't had enough acknowledgement.

Right, right, right. But on his behalf, you very much wanted that.

I couldn't sleep for like 2 days. Yeah. Yeah. And then we woke up and we had it, and it was like, ugh, we didn't win.

And you got nominated for an Academy Award from that song too. Yeah. Yeah. That's exciting. And you've won 2 Emmys.

Yeah, 2 Emmys. You're on your way to an EGOT.

I see this coming. Do you?

Figure out what's the other thing she's not involved with.

A Tony. Well, you need to—

you got to figure out a Tony.

We can figure that out.

I have an idea for—

I have a couple of ideas. Okay. All right. The other fun thing you've done, other than create 9 albums that are all great and won 11 Grammys and 2 Emmys and Academy Award nomination, you've also got this side career as someone who has been obsessed with people, and you get to work with these people. I think this is the zone of your life I'd be most envious of, more than the and the other stuff, to have people you love for an eternity and then to get to enter their orbit and then even get to work together. So is Tanya the first person, or is Joni? Where does this start where you become this collaborator of people who have been humongous? Where did it start? Because you have Tanya Tucker, you have Joni Mitchell, and you have Elton John. You've spent years with these people.

It started in some of the places that you don't read about and that you can't imagine, because I am a fan. Like, I am a wait outside your tour bus for an autograph fan. I'm that kind of girl. And so, a lot of these folks that I followed around when I was young and went to all of their shows and bought every single thing they did and worked to get closer to before I had this job, I got to work with them early on. Like the Indigo Girls and Lucinda Williams and Mary Chapin Carpenter and Kim Richie and some of my favorite, most iconic, Bonnie Raitt. And then it starts to get bigger, and the artists are getting bigger, bigger. And it's like, I'm getting a call returned from Dolly, and then we're singing together. And then me and Elton, we're going on vacation together and we're writing songs. And then Joni Mitchell, that turned into a whole other world.

I mean, I'm just guessing, but I feel like of the other two, I feel like Joni, you needed to pull her into performing again.

Yeah, I may have thought of that at the time, but I remember— you know who Russ Kunkel is? He's like this iconic drummer. He played on Blue and he played on all this James Taylor, like all early. I think he's even on Tapestry. He's the dude, and he's still killer and doing it all the time. But I did this concert where I covered "Blue," and I wasn't even that close with Joni yet, but she came.

Oh wow.

And I had just had my first Joni Jam with her at her house. For anybody that doesn't know what the Joni Jams are, it's something that we started at Joni's behest 6, 7 years ago. She's recovering from an aneurysm, doesn't play music anymore. And we wound up in a situation where we had dinner, and she was talking about her house and her instruments in her living room and saying, "I don't do music anymore. I don't want to hear it. It's not a problem. I don't want you to think that that's sad. I'm a painter, I'm a this, I'm a that, but my house misses it, and these instruments should be played." Wow. "What do you think about bringing a few people over every now and then and doing these nights. Yeah. So I just had my first jam. And at the very first jam, I won't walk you through the whole process, but Joni decided out of nowhere to open her mouth and sing. Wow. With nobody expecting it. Wow. It was Herbie Hancock was sitting at the piano.

Oh, get out of here. Herbie Hancock was tickling the ivory? Exactly that.

Oh my God. And he was hovering over this diminished chord that I didn't know what it was. Nobody knew what it was. She did though. And she just goes, summertime in the living room. Easy. And people burst into tears. Herbie burst into tears. All the people that had been taking care of her. And as she recovered from her aneurysm, she wouldn't do music, but then suddenly just decided to sing that line. So I'm telling Russ Kunkel this, and he goes, she sang? I go, yeah, she fully sang. And I go, yeah, maybe, you know, maybe it's this, or maybe it was because of that, or it was just this. And he goes, one thing I want you to remember, if you ever think that you're spearheading this, Joni Mitchell always has a plan. Joni's always got a plan. Yeah. And so I am convinced that she actually was the architect of everything from that first line to the Hollywood Bowl.

She's Kaiser Sosa. Wow. Yeah. She let you believe this was all your idea. This is genius.

I mean, you don't have to let me believe something's all my idea for me to just go ahead and believe it. But she didn't say it wasn't. But I do feel like she orchestrated an incredible recovery for herself. I got to be the one in the passenger seat watching it happen. That's so cool.

Whoa. That did escalate into you guys playing at the Bowl. How many shows did you guys do?

We did 2 nights at the Bowl. 2 nights at the Bowl.

Surreal experience for you. Are you able to, in moments like that, be super there and taking it all in?

Or are you like, yeah, I mean, you want to talk about welling up? I let a few of the Joni things take me by surprise, but that one I was like ready for. And I remember just sitting next to her on the side The second night, while she sang "Both Sides Now," just openly weeping. Yeah. Kind of knowing it was the last time I was gonna get to do it. And also thinking, these are some of the most powerful moments in music history, listening to this woman sing this song, especially from a perspective of recovering from this aneurysm, being 82 years old, and really having looked at life from both sides now. Yeah. It's like, "How did I get this seat?" Yeah, exactly.

You must believe— Oh, I guess you believe in God, but I was gonna say, you must believe in the symphony simulation.

The simulation? Explain.

We're in a computer model being run. Oh, like there's no way this is real. Good. Literally too good to be true. Suspicious. That night with you, with Joni Mitchell, is highly suspicious.

That's highly suspicious, right? Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen for people. No, it doesn't.

When it does, you either gotta go like, wow, God's really smiling on me, or we're in a simulation, or what's gonna happen, or exactly, exactly, or what shoe's gonna Yeah. How long had it been since Tanya had recorded an album when you guys worked together?

I think a long time, something like 17 years.

That album gets nominated for a Grammy. Won. Won. Sorry.

Won Country Album of the Year and Country Song of the Year. Yes. After a 17-year— And she'd never won a Grammy in her life. And she is a country music way bigger icon.

Yes, yes, yes. When you were imagining your own success and visualizing it and you thought it was going to be is going to feel like blank. I want to know how much that delivered or didn't. And then I want to know the difference between being a part of something that— when you can help someone else do something, contrast those two experiences. Well, it over-delivered.

Way beyond over-delivered. There's just things like, you know, headlining Madison Square Garden or winning a Grammy or anything that happened with Joni or Dolly or Elton or Tanya or Annie Lennox. It's unbelievable. And then if you take that part of my my job, and you actually backtrack it, it's why I'm married to my wife. It's why I have my daughters. It's why I have my brothers, the twins, and why we live together. It's why our family is okay. It's given me everything. And so to say it over-delivered is such an understatement because it has woven the fabric of my life. Now, in terms of when you get something from it, like success, or you learn how to do something, when you share that, for me, it's always as soon as I figure figure out how to do it. So when I figure something out, whether it's how to throw a festival or run a successful tour, or maybe make an album that is good enough to where it garners the respect of winning a Grammy, I immediately want to do that for or with someone else. Immediately. I'm already bored with the me part of it, right?

And so when By the Way I Forgive You did what it did, somebody mentioned Danny Tucker and I was like, that's next. Let's get Tanya Tucker here now. And then we get Tanya Tucker here now, and then you hear about the next guy and you're like, yeah, yeah, let's get the door open for them too. And that is just sort of how I've seen it. As soon as I figure out how to get in the door, I'm trying to find a way to prop it open. Yeah, that's really nice. That's the next mountain we were talking about. That's what it is. It's— yeah, once you do get what you want, before you sit there and marinate in it long enough to let it change you, get right on to doing that for somebody else. Yeah, because that's where the elation—

I mean, I think selfishly you can pursue that. It's so exciting. It is so exciting. It is, right? Yeah, it's like the number one— like, I'll pull up to this house, I'm like, God, we're so lucky we have a great house. But I look at Monica's house and I'm like, oh yeah, look at Monica's house, that's fucking— that's so funny.

I remember when me and the twins, even early on around maybe The Story or Give Up the Ghost, anytime they would like move into a nice house or get something, like I would go to their house and I'd be like, hell yeah, yes! That's 'cause of this job. That's 'cause of this music we're making. Like, we're winning. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know if I'm like superstitious and I'm afraid if I let myself experience that, I'll lose everything. And then I can just enjoy it for them without any of those fears. I don't know what's going on, but something's so much more joyous about that.

You can see it objectively when it's not yours. True.

Yeah, it's quite stark when it's not happening to you. So Phil, one of the twins, married her little sister. That's fun. That is fun.

Isn't that fun? It's really fun.

Okay, I was gonna say it.

Good eye, Sam Nicolson.

Complicated making family. Were they trying to hide it from you at first?

Maybe a little bit. Okay. It was really awkward at first, actually. Yeah. Very. I could imagine that because she was so young. Uh-huh. And he was like, not young.

He was already older than you as you were growing.

He was already older than me. She's my baby sister. Yeah. You know, you're protected. I wanna say she was like 18. Oh shit. Yeah. And he was 28, 29. And we were already in a band. We'd been on the road together. We were kind of bros in a way. Yeah. And I was like, are you serious right now? And I mean, I thought to myself, it could definitely be the end of anything with me and the twins because you do not cross my brothers and sisters. On my watch. He has that too. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, everyone has it, but some of you guys have it more than others.

I'll kill you if you hurt my sister's feelings. Oh my God.

My brother and sister, like, no. Yeah.

But if they're in a relationship, they're gonna be some stuff.

But he's been quite gallant. And honestly, she has really, I don't wanna say something demeaningly cool. She's really grown up cuz she's She's like 40, but like, she has grown up. Yeah. Married to that man. That's lovely. And in this band. That is how she has lived the second half of her life. Yeah, yeah.

And it's been incredible. Yeah, I'm so delighted it worked out. Yeah, that's awesome. Because they've been together for a long time now. 22 years of— Wow. Yeah, that's a long time. You've been with your wife for 13 years?

We've been married for 15. Wow. Okay. And we've been together for like 16. 16, 17.

And so how'd you meet her if she's from England?

We met, actually, she was working for Paul McCartney.

Oh, right. She was doing his philanthropic work.

Yeah. And I had like a campaign running in Seattle called the Fight the Fear campaign. We were teaching self-defense courses to women and people in at-risk communities for free because there was like a terrible string of like violent crime that had happened in the city that year. And when it kind of culminated in this really awful thing. And so it traveled across to England and she was reading about this in the newspaper and basically called up and was like, hey, what can Paul do? What can I do to help? Oh, wow. Okay. And I thought to myself, well, I just started this foundation. I need some mentorship.

Looking Out Foundation? Yeah.

I had a lot of principles that maybe I was getting in my own way a little bit. So I wanted to have this mentorship thing with her and we got to talking. And so for like a while, I thought I was talking to somebody Paul McCartney Cartney's age. Oh wow. I thought I was talking to a 70-year-old woman.

Okay. Wow. That's an interesting, that's almost like a reality show. Like you can't see the person.

Oh, there is a show. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't occur to me that she wasn't 70. Right. It did not even occur to me. And she was saying 70-year-old shit too. Okay. Well, 'cause she's English.

It sounded— What stuff? Yeah. At least she took the lift or something.

I don't know. She was doing 70-year-old stuff. She was listening to 70-year-old music. Her and her girlfriend were traveling like 70-year-old people. Yeah. It just had this vibe.

Did you have any moment where you're like, I feel like I'm becoming attracted to a 70-year-old woman.

No, I just called her the charity lady. I'm like, the charity lady. And then one time I was playing in New York City and I was like getting ready to go out with all the baby dykes. We were all going to get on our Vespas and drive to the gay bar and drink tequila. And I couldn't wait. And she came to the show and I remember the tour manager being like, oh, you're going to have to say hi to the charity lady.

I was like, ugh. Really grateful to her. But she's in a wheelchair. Yeah, exactly. Okay, how'd you get her backstage?

And now 70 is like, that's my age. I love like that. He's barely old enough for me to date. But I walked backstage with this 27-year-old, 28-year-old. She's hot, I imagine. Absolute no joke.

Yeah, she ain't no granny.

I mean, and oh my God, she was so charming, and I loved her accent. She had black hair and bright blue eyes, and she was wearing this blazer, and she just was like hip. And I was like, cancel my plans, order me a pizza. I've got to stay with this woman. Yeah, yeah, forever.

Did she already have a crush on you if she came to the show? She knew you weren't 70. She had that advantage. I don't know if she had a crush on me.

She will say no. She will say no for her, but I think, yeah, she probably thought I was pretty cute.

Yeah, you come to the show. You come to the show. Okay, now here's another little bit of overlap.

What are you smiling at? Well, she's there.

Oh my God, I did not put that together.

I was like, should we ask?

Or we can tell her. I thought you were like the publicist or something. Let me look at these blue eyes. Look at how beautiful she is. And now I can say it was theoretical. You are a fucking smoke show. She is a smoke show. Yeah. She's absolutely—

I didn't know what you were doing. You knew because you knew. Yeah.

So that's how we pretend things.

No, that's my wife. And she manages me now.

Okay. So I wasn't terribly off base. You were. She's got an official capacity in our management company.

Well, we can ask then, did you have a crush?

She's gonna say no.

Yeah, when you came to that show, did you have plans? I had my girlfriend with me, so—

oh, I understand. Listen to her talk. We're all intrigued by your voice.

Listen to that voice.

Do you see what I was going through?

Yeah, that's order pizza time. Yeah, yeah, let's not go.

Let's get this girlfriend out of here. Doesn't she have some errands to run? We ordered pizza. You can't eat pizza, right? I heard you're gluten intolerant. You don't eat cheese.

Yeah, the cauliflower crust is in the twins' dressing room down the block.

Okay, our other overlap is we're both boat owners.

Yes, you have the Captain Fantastic.

Gorgeous vessel. I saw some video of you out piloting it.

And you have a pontoon. I have a tritune. Yeah, yeah. So is a tritune less redneck than a pontoon? It is.

It's the newest iteration. They're more stable. Okay. I have a 400-horsepower V10 on a pontoon, so it moves.

Oh wow, that really moves. It really moves.

I was just on it this weekend. Mercury or Yamaha? A Mercury.

Wow, you guys are speaking—

yeah, you got dual 350s out back? Dual 400s. Dual 400s, girl, get it! Okay, and a big-ass second engine. Yeah, yeah, you've got me doubled in horsepower.

Do you just check out? Yeah, me too.

Yeah, yeah, we could get into it. She really checks out. Captain Fantastic, name the after Elton John. And just congratulations, Looking Out Foundation's giving away $9 million. I think that's incredible that you've raised that amount of money.

Doing a lot of different things too. Yeah, what's— the thing about the foundation is I started the foundation in 2007 when GM wanted to use the story in a television commercial. Right. And I was really young and idealistic. They offered me like $100,000, you know? And you know how old I was. That's a very big deal. And I made all these calls to all my friends, and I called the Indigo Girls, which if you want to do a television commercial, never call the Indigo Girls. And all my friends were like, "You can't do that. GM is one of the biggest contributors to pollution, and they've caused all these problems. It is rumored that they've squashed patents and that they're really restricting the progression of the electric car and the hydrogen engine and the things that could help the environment. You can't work with GM." So who knows how much of that was true, but I said no. And so, like, the VP of advertising at GM was like, "A 20-something-year-old kid can't say no to $100,000 unless we're getting a really bad reputation." And they called me up called me and they said, what can we do to convince you to let us put your song in the Olympics and give you $100,000?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How can we make this even better for you?

Yeah. And so I thought about it and I made some demands and they acquiesced to all of them. And it was really cool, empowering moment for me as a young girl. Yeah. And then I took that money and started the foundation and that's what we used it for. But since then, the foundation has done the things like Fight the Fear campaign that I was telling you about. We've done a lot to end hunger. We've done a lot of LGBTQ-focused stuff. In recent years, the plight of displaced people and outreach to refugees and asylum seekers, you know, children whose lives have been torn apart by war, immigrants, economic migrants, and the way that we navigate the southern border have become focuses of the Looking Out Foundation.

And you did COVID relief stuff.

We are really campaign-based, you know, maybe it's ADHD part of me, if that's a real thing for me.

I like you're the only person that's actually been diagnosed and you don't want it. I know. Everyone else hasn't been diagnosed and they want it.

You're like flipping the script on it. Terminal uniqueness. I just won't accept it. Too many people have it now.

Yeah, it's not punk rock anymore to be ADHD.

No. So that's the foundation. That's awesome.

Okay, so Returning to Myself is currently out and you are on tour. You have tour dates that people could go look at at brandycarlisle.com. And what other things I want to say before I get to be serenaded, which I'm so excited about. I think that's it. Everyone listen immediately to Returning to Myself if you're not already obsessed with it, and go see Brandi Andy live. This woman is like the Beatles. She's played as many live shows. You're guaranteed for a good show. I mean, you've been playing— it's kind of crazy, right? At 44, you've been playing for 30-plus years.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. It's second nature to me by now, but it never gets old. Just like you were saying, it's the best job in the world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, I would love to hear this song that's gonna make me think of my children.

Yeah, my buddy Marcus on, and he did this, right, with his drum? Yes, he did.

Oh, you don't even The bottle. Oh my God, this is post-bonus. I hipped Marcus to this.

Oh, I think he said that, by the way.

We loved him.

Yeah, I know.

You must love him, right?

Oh my God, we are like sibs. He brought— yeah, he brought you up a lot. He's like, loves you.

Yeah, special dude.

I love his solo album. Oh my God, oh yeah, such a good— he's such a good piece of music and really important. I love Mumford Sons too. Oh my God, always have. Um, keep on with the levels. You want me to sing?

Oh, oh, you know what's crazy? We're sitting here talking, you're just so charismatic and special before you do this. I know. And then you do this and I'm like, well, hold on a sec, you can't have all that. Yeah, I'm a little upset. I'm like, you don't get a superpower on top of having a great personality. You get what kind of one or the other. You guys have plenty of superpowers. I don't think—

Not that one, though. That's a hard one.

And you haven't even seen me drive that pontoon. That's gotta be what you're referencing. Yeah.

I can just see the wake, though. So, this song, it's about kids that are our kids' age. And it's about these little moments, these little, like, micro separations where you see them do something that you didn't expect. Expect. They're trying something out that they're gonna need later on in life, like when they're not with you. It's called like a "you without me" moment. And I'm wondering what yours was, because my friend Ben, when he first heard this song, he had this moment where it was like they were at this big party weekend thing and Mark Ronson was DJing, and he was gonna let his oldest daughter stay up late and like dance with him on the dance floor. And they're out on the dance floor and they're silly dancing and they're goofy and they're doing the thing. But she started to like her own music. So she sees a group of older girls, you know, she's maybe 10, and they're like 14 or 15. And he gets distracted and she leaves him and she goes over to them and she starts trying to dance with them, like the way they're dancing, and like relate to them.

And he said that he looked over there and he saw her and he didn't recognize her. That she was— An independent, autonomous person. And she was taking a risk, and she was using her body and voice in a way that he had never seen. Yeah. And these are the little girls. Little, like, moments where it occurs to you that they're gonna leave. They're their own people. Yeah. And they're tiny things at first. And that's what I wrote this song about. It's called "You Without Me." Was your smile always crooked?

Was the freedom ever free? Did you kick the rocks between between your feet. After all this time with me, you can listen to your own records now, decide what you believe. You can pray on stars and skip the gods like stones across the sea, but I would know you anywhere. I lost myself in you. Are the hands that you are free to slip right through. Do what you have to do. And there you are, my morning star. I wondered when you'd show. Give me I need just a quick thumbs up, a wink before you go. I never heard that voice before today. I remind myself to breathe, and there you are. It's just you without me.

I'm late to another game.

I guess I never learned the rules. I showed up with a broken name and handed it to you. I'm not sure if you can fix it now, but if you wanted to, I would follow you around and carry all your tools. Cause I would know you anywhere. I found myself in you. And heavy are the hands that hold the changes you go through. Do what you have to do. —before today, I remind myself to breathe. And there you are. It's just you without me. Without me. It's as predictable as time and age, but comforting in some strange way. That time makes every one of us an absolute cliché.

And when I met you face to face, none of it was true.

So who am I? Fine, not you. There you are. My morning star, I wondered when you'd show. Give me just a quick thumbs up, a wink before you go. I never heard that voice before today. I remind myself to breathe. I'm never just a thought away. If ever you need me, you're gonna live a lot of life. You're gonna see a lot of years, God willing. Just you without me. There you are. It's just you.

Without me.

Oh, it's so sad. It's so beautiful. It's the without me part that's so sad. Every time you say without me, I think, oh no, yeah, you're gonna have a whole life without me.

Yeah. It is gorgeous. Thank you so much.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, you got to go like, oh yeah, and that's a sign I did a good job. That's all you get. They're just like, see ya. I know they're not.

Think about how you think about your parents.

Well, I know, but there was a moment.

I know there is.

I got my 20s to do, girl. I'll talk to you later. Like, right, 20s is coming, you know. You got to do your 20s and then involve mom and dad.

No, Yeah. No, and then hopefully it comes back around. Yeah, it does.

But then I don't want it for them.

They go and they just do like one little thing. It's one little interaction you see them do, one point they make, one thing they disagree about where they win the argument. And you're like, there you are. Yeah. That's who you're gonna be for the rest of your life without me. Oh, sweet.

No, take me. I'll carry your tools. Like you said, I'll be good. I'll run and get coffee.

Well, that was beautiful. Thank you so much.

Your tiny desk, by the way, is so good. Thank you. Yeah, I fucking love Tiny Desk and you nailed yours. I like Tiny Desk too. Yeah, it'll show you who's what.

Separates the wheat from the chaff. Have you seen Dochi's Tiny Desk? No, it's incredible. Yeah, or the Silk Sonic. John Anderson. Oh my God, we had him on.

It was just insane. What a dude. What a vibe too. Did you watch that, um, I could talk to you for 7 hours, just side note. I'm gonna wrap this up, but did you watch this Super Bowl halftime show with Drake, obviously he's the most memorable one ever. Yep.

They were all wearing Rich Fresh tracksuits, baby blue, powder blue Rich Fresh tracksuits. So cool.

But when they pan over and I'm like, Anderson Paak's playing the drums this whole time.

We didn't even see him. Of course he is. Yeah, I know. Incredible. That is how stacked that lineup was. You didn't even see Anderson Paak playing the drums.

Exactly. 11 minutes in, you're like, oh damn, Anderson's been playing the drums this whole time.

Why doesn't everybody call that halftime out? Like everybody says, I mean, Prince. And I mean, Prince was amazing, right? But it's like, well, that's number one. Pretty epic.

I think too, if you're a poor kid— yeah, I was crying during that whole thing. I'm like, these kids are from down the block, and Tipper Gore was saying they were going to destroy America. Yeah. And everyone hated them, and they were the poor kids, and look at them, and they are the show. Yeah. Oh, I loved it.

So you have the vibe that the old gays have now about the young gays. That's right. That's like, that's You got old poor kid thing going on like that. Exactly. That's the thing.

That's my gateway into understanding.

Yeah. We're like, let's talk about coming from nothing right now.

Yeah. Yeah. And then owning the world. These motherfuckers own the world. Nothing could be better. Well, Brandi, this has been a delight. Yes. Thank you for joining us. Yeah. So nice.

I'm really glad Anna's got good taste. She sure does.

When she picks a mentor, boy, it's few and far between. It's true. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming. This has been so lovely.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

I've always wanted to talk to you guys. Oh my God.

Come back and have me back. Oh, we'd love to. Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

Okay, we just ordered drinks from Erewhon. Okay. And I'm putting in, I'm trying to order it, and it's saying you, you have to meet at the door, this can't be left. It's like, that's weird. Okay, sure. Yeah. Then it says you have to show your ID, and we ordered you something.

It's just a standard disclaimer in case you've ordered alcohol.

No, because I order Erewhon like every day— or not every day, I mean, but I order a lot.

I bet you can predict my reaction to this. What? Which is like, fine, fuck you, we won't order from you. You don't leave it, you got to show ID. It's like, this is my, my beef with the place that required a signature no matter what. Like, our policy, it's like, great, well then I won't, I won't be using you.

Okay, well, I already ordered it. You didn't predict that? No, I didn't, because I— what I of course think is, so you got a new drink. Oh, we don't know about it. It's like new and strange and it has colostrum in it.

I think that's the only strange part. Everything else is not new. But like, maybe that is what's requiring it, that you got to be an adult to drink. Or maybe you got to be a baby to drink colostrum. Oh, to show you're under 21, you got to show you're under 2 years old.

Oh my God.

Well, anyway, anticipate that being said, we didn't.

But I think this is interesting that—

I do too. Yeah, you got breast milk in your coffee?

There was no— I know, I want to make sure. Yeah, it has, it has colostrum.

There's no alcohol in it, so why would you need it?

Exactly, that's why not. But now I have to check.

Okay, I mean, I would detect alcohol immediately. Uh, that's interesting. That was in last night's meeting. Oh, tell me. Well, just people are kind of— one person told I told a story about ordering a, you know, a Coke, and it came— there's always these moments for alcoholics where inevitably you're gonna bump into some real alcohol.

Oh my God, yeah, tell me how that—

yeah, um, my, um, you know, my second dad and I were one time in Wyoming, and, um, and I ordered a Diet Coke and he ordered a ginger ale, and our drinks came, and, and we both took a sip of them almost at the same time, and I mean, it was like, oh, this is Jack and Diet. And then he's putting his drink down, he goes— but this is what was really funny— is he goes, try this. Is there— like, oh God, he just wasn't really thinking. He's just doing what you would normally do if you say something funny.

Yeah.

And I was like, I'll take your word for it. He's like, oh yeah, yeah, you shouldn't try it. But it was just kind of instinctual, like, does this smell funny?

Right? Totally.

He's like, does this taste like— anyways, they were both laced with Jack Daniels. That— a Jack Ginger and a Jack and Diet.

I have a lot Like, look, I have a lot of respect for servers and food staff and chefs and kitchen workers, but that makes me so angry. It does. Yes, that kind of mistake, only that one. Yeah, is so bad. That is so dangerous. People don't understand what can happen. Sure, sure, sure.

I mean, look, we could, we could look at this from a lot of different angles. Um, I would just say right out of the gates, what percentage of people in the restaurant at any given time are recovering addicts?

It's like a lot to— you have to protect the most vulnerable.

Yeah, yeah.

I just— I imagine he's got tickets and he, you know, or she, the bartender, got, um, you know, 6 different Cokes and Jack. And mistakes happen.

I see how it happened. I'm not like— but I do think it is incumbent, is your responsibility if you're a bartender or whatever. Yeah, I guess it was bartender, right?

Yeah, it's the kind of restaurant they got to put in the drink order with the bartender.

Yeah, to be aware if there shouldn't be alcohol in the drink.

But wait, it also could be for a kid.

Well, thank you.

I was just— I just had gotten to that place in my head where I was like, if it's happened to me and it's happened to Tom and it's happened to— well, almost every dude in the meeting had had this. Yeah, surely kids are getting— and do they think like, oh, this just tastes funny but I like soda?

No, it's probably like, ew, something's wrong with this.

I like to think that some kid just powered through and became an alcoholic. Buzzed. Well, again, most people who drink don't become alcoholics.

A lot of us do.

This is a fun, like, philosophical conversation, which is like, I don't think it's the responsibility of the masses to be changing their whole life because some small percentage of the population has classic thing.

I just don't think that's— generally don't either. But this isn't changing anything. This is just being careful.

Well, no, I mean, even the notion that like, well, you can't have it— if a kid drank, he'd be an alcoholic. Well, it's like, well, that's not true. Most people that drink aren't alcoholics.

So that's fine.

Yeah, but I think that would be a common kind of reaction.

Well, no, I think they're just like, don't give my kid alcohol. Like, that's very— that's bad. You want to decide when your kid has alcohol.

Yeah. And, and it is I'm so sorry, I have it on do not disturb, but for some reason it's still— yeah, do not disturb. Why would you be buzzing?

See, it's like my, my doorbell buzz.

You're not supposed to buzz. Oh, it's because it's Kristen.

Oh, she has an override.

She has an override if she calls, and now I'm realizing she has an override if she texts too.

Does she have to call twice or text twice, or it just immediately is an override?

Anytime she calls, it'll actually ring.

Oh, That's nice.

I learned that from Toto Wolff. Remember, he was in the interview and his phone rang twice. Yeah, once was his wife and once was one of his children.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Yeah. And he said— oh, and I was like, I didn't even know you could do that. That's cool.

Um, okay, I did look it up, and cold brew coffee with cowboy colostrum— though, like, what does it mean, cowboy colostrum? But okay. Heavy cream and maple syrup. That's all it's saying. Oh, enhanced with lucuma, maca, and sea salt.

Maybe they don't want kids to have maca because there's a lot caffeine or some shit. Maybe. I'm just thinking that like it's a policy gone awry. Yeah, it's like they flag some certain thing and now this got ensnared in it. There's no reason someone—

bet it's colostrum, but we need to figure out why. Like, you know, further. Oh my God, what if you get addicted to colostrum now?

Okay, I'm gonna get in trouble for this, okay? But it's in keeping with this conversation we were already having. I just had read that they're like sentencing someone who is in between— I don't know what chain of events they were involved with the Matthew Perry overdose. Oh, I've heard about this. And they just got sentenced, and I think someone else got sentenced.

Like a doctor, I think, right?

Yeah, and my kids and I were talking about it, and I was like, no, that's not how it should work. My analogy was Yamaha, Kawasaki, all these motorcycle companies, they all sell motorcycles that go 200 miles an hour. They're for sale. Dealership. A 16-year-old can walk in and buy it. They don't have to prove at all that they've ever ridden the thing. And quite often those kids go out and they die on motorcycles. It's way too much motorcycle. Yeah, that's— that is living in a country with liberty. Like, you do have the right to be a mountain climber, to do dangerous activities. That's not the same.

Well, no, it's—

it's identical if you— if you remove the word legal or illegal and you just say that there are many products that are sold that are just inherently dangerous. Motorcycle cycles, drugs, guns, alcohol, alcohol, cigarettes. Yes. Um, cars. There are products that are dangerous. Yeah. And I really believe, unless it's a situation like Big Tobacco where they know it causes cancer and they're stifling that information— like, I think you should have full awareness as a consumer of what the— I think it should be like, yeah, you're gonna buy this motorcycle, it goes 200 miles an hour, you kill yourself really easily. Okay, now if you want to do that, that's like, it's your life. So no, I don't think someone that sells a dangerous product should go to jail because someone else used the dangerous product and killed themselves. I think it's the person who used it has to have the responsibility.

Well, not if it's a doctor. It's a doctor, I think, that got in trouble. I think, maybe I'm wrong about that. Yeah, but again, it's not a doctor, I'm more aligned with you.

But, but let's just say that what I guarantee is that the doctor hadn't given him a dosage that killed him. What I guarantee is that he had multiple sources or stockpiled or whatever, and he took on his own a dose that no doctor would ever recommend.

Well, we don't know that. We— I do. How? Like, Michael Jackson's doctor also gave him way too much. Like, they're giving what the people are asking for, and that's the whole issue. It's they have of a do-no-harm obligation. And if it's just like, well, this person's paying me and just wanting more than I really— I should give, but I'm giving it, that's a problem.

Yeah, we would— we would need more. But I can tell you, we wouldn't— from everyone I've known who's overdosed in the last 30 years of sobriety, no one was taking it as prescribed, right?

But this was ketamine. Yeah, it's a little—

there is a safe dosage of ketamine. A lot of people in this country have ketamine prescriptions. Yeah, but like, if I got, um, a prescription for Percocet, right, the, the 1.0s, the big boys, and it says take 1 every 4 hours, and I take that jar and I take 8 right away— yeah, that's on me.

No, that is on you though.

What he did— what, what our boy did was he OD'd. He took way more than was prescribed to him, for sure.

Well, I don't know if it's for sure, because then every doctor who had an OD, had someone OD, would be in trouble, and that's not the case, right?

The only thing that makes the— I think this reason this person's going to jail is because, A, the person that died was famous. I think a bunch of people have OD'd on ketamine and other drugs and there was not even an investigation. Like, yeah, someone OD'd, that's what happens on drugs when they're abused. But because it's him, they're like, well, we got to figure out who killed Matthew Perry. That's not what— no one killed him.

Well, again, I don't know that this is— I don't know enough about this doctor or what was being prescribed.

I do know that I read what he was on when he died, and it was an insane amount of ketamine, and it was not what his prescription was. He was a drug counselor that connected Perry to the Ketamine Queen who delivered him the ketamine.

Yeah, I mean, Queen is tricky.

Yeah, I don't know enough about her. But at the end of the day, he did it. No one else did it. He did it.

Yeah, but if you're a doctor, you, you can't—

like, you think the Queen was a doctor?

I assume. Let me look it up. Yes, this person. British-American convicted felon and drug dealer known as the Ketamine Queen. She gained international attention following her indictment and subsequent guilty plea in connection with the overdose of actor Matthew Perry. Let me see if she's a doctor. She looks kind of Indian. Kind Indian. Prosecutors alleged that she operated a drug distribution network from her North Hollywood home for several years. Sentenced to 15 years in prison for her role in supplying the ketamine that would cause Perry's death.

Just think how many people drink to a fatal level. It happens a ton.

Yeah, but you can get in trouble for overserving.

I can go into the store and I can buy 10 fish. Oh yeah, yeah. So we would I would agree the Jack Daniel's Company should not be held responsible because someone went and bought.

How did she even get the ketamine, this lady? She's probably— I mean, it's clearly illegal. What she's doing is illegal, so that's why she's going to jail.

Yeah, she's a drug dealer.

Drug dealers, you know. But I agree that if you— I think drug dealers in certain cases should go to jail. Oh, you do? Yeah, you're getting illegal drugs off the black market.

I mean, yes, you're engaging in a lot of illegal I think the time that I'd be fine with a drug dealer going to jail would be when the drug dealer knowingly sold someone fentanyl under the guise of it being heroin. Knowingly. Yeah. I mean, obviously, because then— then they're a murderer. Yeah, exactly. Then the person that got it can't really dose it correctly, and they have deceitfully misled this person, which may have caused their death. But if I'm selling you crack cocaine, I go, hey, bro, Bro, this is crack, you know, do what it with you. I, I really don't think it's on the person who sold it.

They got it illegally. No one gets crack legal.

That's kind of what I'm trying to have the conversation about, is because we labeled alcohol legal and this other thing illegal, yet we clearly think because alcohol is legal that no one's responsible someone drinks themselves to death. And so you're saying that because one is classified by the government as illegal and one is legal, that that should make the person who sells it go to prison?

Yes, because there are regulations on actual alcohol. Like you— it's labeled 12%, blah blah. Like, crack is not— like, it's— if crack was legal, then it would probably be under some sort of system where you'd see the amount. It would be like supervised in a way, right?

No one would be held responsible. Yeah, right.

But that's fine then. I am fine if we lived in a world where it was legal and it was regulated. I mean, this was a whole marijuana— this is the whole debate about marijuana for years and years and years, which now—

and all these people went to prison and held responsible for other people's abuse of something. Yeah. And I think we all now agree that was a bad— that was wrong, right?

But also because now, just because like marijuana isn't a problem. Yeah. But crack is a problem. You—

well, let's keep it to ketamine because you can get a prescription for ketamine. There is ketamine therapy. People do use ketamine therapeutically. I personally don't think it's a great idea to use ketamine therapy because Um, because I've seen it go wrong more than I've seen it go right. And not even in death. I've seen a very temporary patch for something that long-term wasn't a good solution, right?

And you think it has a risk of addiction?

Yeah, just like cigarettes, alcohol, caffeine, um, most things that—

do think it's more or less— I'm actually asking because I don't know a lot about ketamine. Yeah, I don't.

I've never taken ketamine, so I don't know how sticky it is. Yeah, I know how sticky opiates are. Yeah, exactly. Um, I know how sticky cocaine is. I know how sticky alcohol is. I know cigarettes— like, yeah, of all of them, cigarettes are the stickiest. There's a bunch of junkies that'll tell you quitting smoking was harder than quitting heroin.

But again, that's why, like, because it's illegal. It says, like, basically it says on the box, like, this is going to kill you.

But my only issue with cigarette manufacturers were when they knew it was causing something. Yeah, horrible. And, and they silenced that. And, and so to me, if you have total transparency, um, I do think we— I want to live in a country where people get to evaluate the risks they want to take. And then also, we— I don't think it's fair to the 90% of people, or even the 90 94% of people who try cocaine and don't become addicted. I don't think it's fair to those people that because us 8% have a problem, you guys can't do it. I don't think that's fair.

Well, we can't do it because it's not regulated and there is fentanyl in it and there is like, there's so many, it's not, are you saying you think cocaine should be legalized?

No, I, I don't think that. Um, I, I, I think that, um, we've seen the experiment run and doesn't work. Yeah. That's my opinion on, on many classifications of drugs. Yeah. I do think that I think they're too addictive. And I think the barriers that exist are what help it going from 94% of people never getting addicted to, you know, the 8. I think if it were, yeah, $5 for an 8-ball and it was at 7-Eleven, I think you would see a massive uptick.

You would. Yes. And it would affect every single person whether you're an addict or you're not.

So that's one topic. Do I think it should be legalized? And then another topic is, do I think people are responsible responsible for distributing a product that's dangerous and someone abuses it and dies. I don't. I don't think the kid who breaks the speed limit on his new Yamaha R1 and is going 180 on the 5 and kills himself, I don't think the dealer is responsible. I don't either. I don't think Yamaha is responsible.

But again, the difference is— I just, we're— I do think the difference is legality.

I know, but that's just really— we would agree that's arbitrary. Like, weed wasn't legal 2 years ago, and, and now it is, right? So now we, now we think that—

it's like, well, that should have been consistent because like, it, it, it, it doesn't do that much harm. There's been— we have enough, we have enough, um, evidence of all of these drugs at this point to, to rank how lethal they are. Exactly. And, and lethal to yourself and like, you know, to society, like what it's going to cause.

Then we get even more fun debate, which is sometimes the ones that aren't lethal are weirdly more dangerous. So like weed and alcohol. Yeah, I think bizarrely they can take more of a toll on your overall life because they're not so extreme, uh-huh, that you can habitually do them forever and lose big chunks of your existence. Yeah, weed's going to be— I think think at some— there's going to be one— there'll be some study at some point when we have 20 years of data on what happened with this experiment. And although I'm in favor of it, we're going to see it's just a more innocuous— it has more innocuous and subtle, um, consequences that are currently being completely ignored.

Sure. Like, in a way that maybe, maybe if someone is addicted to caffeine and then they can't sleep and then they have a bad— you You know, like, yes, there are consequences for anything you do. Anything. You could eat sugar.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, absolutely.

Where do we draw the line? Yeah. And I think you have to draw it at— you have to draw it somewhere. Obviously, I think we both agree we can't just have a free-for-all situation.

Well, we have the data for it. Back in the early 1900s when these cure-alls, when people went town to town with cure-alls, and 30% of the cure-all was opium. You saw there was a moment in America where like 30% of the country was addicted to opiates. So you— we have data that when you make it widely available and it's not illegal, it's bad. You're gonna have a third of the population. So back to the weed, what makes me think we will at some point reevaluate it a little bit— not to say we're ever going to make it illegal again or that we should But my anecdotal experience is I drive, um, Delta to school every morning on my motorcycle. And when I am— well, both directions, but certainly I'm more aware of it when I'm driving home by myself. I smell weed the whole way home in LA. Yeah. And I have to go like, oh yeah, so now that it's legal, a lot of people have transferred to— many, many people are getting stoned the second they wake up and on their way to work and walking around in the morning. Okay, I'm not judgmental of it, but I am suggesting that's gonna show a little burble.

We're gonna see some, some downriver consequences of people waking up and immediately getting stoned.

I mean, my guess is yes, but I also don't know. We have Seth Rogen, you know, he's extremely not affected negatively at all, for sure. This is a hard one for me because I don't like weed. I like— personally, I don't take it. I don't enjoy it. So I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight, really.

Here's what you don't see. I saw it one time— well, I've seen it a couple times. I saw it in Russia when I was there in 1996, I guess, and it had, you know, the wall had only fallen at that point for, what, 7 years or something? And driving in the morning from the boat to St. Catherine's Palace, I I saw hundreds, if not thousands, of men drinking vodka at 8 AM on the sidewalk. It's cultural. Yep. And you go, hmm, that town has a drinking problem. And then we went to Sweden right after, and then we learned of Sweden's taxation of vodka because Sweden went, we got a drinking problem. And so they wanted to start addressing it somehow. And what I'm saying is, if you were driving home from anywhere at 8 AM in the morning and you saw 1 in 3 people chugging out alcohol, vodka or beer, you go, huh, this isn't great. Yeah, but weed, this is what I'm talking about, it's innocuous quality, which is like, yeah, I do believe you can smoke weed and drive your car and smoke weed and probably go to work and do a fine job.

I don't think you're gonna do 100%. I don't think—

I don't either, but I don't also know, like, I don't know because I, I just don't. Yeah, I've never done it.

It's just interesting how it's already like folded into our culture and it's kind of like you, you observe people smoking weed all morning in LA and you just—

It might be because it's still, I mean, not in a, not really new, but kind of, it's still kind of newly legal. Yeah. And as you said, like, we could be seeing 1 in 3 people drinking all day and we You don't. And I think that probably has to do with just the fact that it's been around for so long.

And, and you can't function as well, and you can't— if you show up to work, you smell like it. And socially, we're like, no, no, you can't drink in the morning, right? I think it's interesting. You can smoke weed in the morning, it's fine. No one really gives a shit.

I mean, I think most people do. I think most people, if they hear that, are like, what? That's crazy. I think some people maybe don't, but I think the majority of people who, who hear that somebody woke up in the morning and started smoking weed immediately are probably a little concerned about that person. Yeah.

Um, well, I just saw this, this— I, I saw these two ladies, they have a podcast about ADHD, they're both ADHD, and they were talking about why many ADHD people love weed because it's a dopamine dysregulation condition and that you can get dopamine I mean, from the weed. So initially they're talking about— it's almost like heavily in support of ADHD people using it, or at least maybe not feeling guilty that they're using it because it is like a good medicine for them. But then they were also very quite honest to say, and 36% of ADHD cannabis users have cannabis use disorder. Yeah. So it's like it's over a third. And I I also think weed, it has benefited from the fact that we've been saying forever it's not addictive. It is not physically addictive. You're not going to go through withdrawals, uh, of the physical variety when you stop doing it, but you're going to go through a lot, and you— mental withdrawal— your brain chemistry is going to adjust for a while. And so I also don't think we're being totally honest about like, oh, it's not addictive. No, no. Many, many people are fully addicted to weed, and their tolerance has gone up and up, and their dosage has gone up and up and up.

Yeah. And they're smoking, you know, insane amount of weed.

Addictions are also mental. Like, so many are that will kill you. Like, not, not, not just— it's not just like a silly thing to say. It's very, uh, you know, my brother used to smoke so much weed. It was like, it's not addictive, it's not addictive. And I'm like, you are addicted. I can tell because Because you, you keep getting in trouble for this. It's having a consequence and you can't or won't stop. Right. So maybe, yes, it's not physically addictive, but mentally you are addicted. Yeah. Yeah.

So, and you probably won't suck a dick for weed and you probably won't break into a house for weed. And there's like, there is a, even when you're jonesing for it, it doesn't reach the level of jonesing for opiates or jonesing for, yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. It's fascinating. Yeah, it is interesting. I think, I think though we'll have a bit of a reckoning. I think it should stay legal. Again, I don't think that the many— the millions of people that are doing it like on the weekends to relax or taking a gummy to go to sleep, I don't want those people to lose that. No, they should have that. And also dickheads like me are going to fuck it up and abuse it. And then there's also going to probably be some questions about when you start doing it, what age, and what kind of effects it has on your brain development. Yeah, if you're a heavy weed user.

Well, maybe they will start— maybe eventually they'll be— is it right now? Is there an age thing? Yeah, 18.

Well, I don't know if it's 18 or 21. It would make sense that it was 21, but I have no clue.

I would assume it would be 21. And it— and it—

I probably won't get carded, I know that. It's 21. It's 21? Yeah.

Wow, that's a really big ding, ding, ding because I want to— Bucket and cart it? Yep, I was at Chili's this past weekend. Oh, with your mom? With my mom and dad in Duluth. You guys went over to Chili's?

We did. Yeah, great.

Yeah, it was my idea. Oh, good.

Did you get the potato skins? I didn't.

I got the quesadilla, which is my thing there. And the problem is my mom had made quesadillas the day before, homemade, homemade tortillas, homemade everything, and they were so good. And gourmet, they were really gourmet. And then I had this idea about the Chili's quesadillas because it's so nostalgic. Yeah. And it was, it was fun, it was good. Yeah, it was fine. Yeah, I just probably shouldn't have had it the next day after these like really one-of-a-kind quesadillas. Yes, we were, we were at obviously TJ. My mom and I went to TJ Maxx, obviously.

I thought you were about to say TGIF. I was like, wow, you guys hit Fridays and Chili's in one weekend. No, no, no.

We went to TJ Maxx, which we always do. We went to Kohl's, we went to Nordstrom Rack. They're all in the same area. Yeah. We're shopping. And then there's a Chili's right there, our Chili's where like I grew up going. And I asked, oh, my mom had asked earlier, what do you wanna do for dinner? And I was like, I don't know. And then I said, have you guys been to the Chili's? Do you guys still go there? And she was like, yeah, we go. And she was like, do you wanna do that for dinner? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I do want to. So then my dad met us.

Okay, where was he? He was at home.

He wasn't going to TJ Maxx in his retirement. Yeah, no, he was— he's not going to TJ Maxx and Nordstrom Rack and stuff. No, I would rather die. Yeah, he was home, but then he came to meet us and, um, and we ate there and I got carded. Oh, lovely. Yeah, that's cute. It was cute. Flattering. It was cute. And then the—

what was your cocktail at Chili's?

It was a margarita. Yeah, I didn't I didn't finish. It was bad. Super sugary.

Yeah.

And I, I said, can I get a Casamigos one but skinny? And those were, you know, two separate things basically. And he was like, oh, I don't know, I have to ask. And I was like, charge me for the expensive Casamigos one but just make it skinny.

Yeah, no way that's gonna happen back there.

It didn't happen. Yeah, I don't know what happened, but it tasted very, very bad.

That cocktail. I know. Yeah. Um, so was it so beautiful in Georgia? Is it green as hell right now?

Spring? It's pretty green. Maine. Yeah, that's nice. Okay, it's nice. Okay, it's nice. Yeah.

Um, but any thoughts of moving back while you're there?

No, I never have that.

Yeah, you never have that.

I have, I have like, oh, like I'm glad I touched down here a couple times a year.

Like, have you had the thought I had in Michigan, which is like, oh my gosh, I could live in the super nice neighborhood now? Oh, because that's what really fucked me up. That's what had me almost getting a house on a certain lake in Michigan.

Really?

Yeah, I was just like, oh, I used to drive by house, you know. I mean, every time I went to West Bloomfield or anywhere, which is regular, there's one stretch Pontiac Trail, and look at these mansions with these huge yards, and they're on Long Lake, uh, I think Lower Straits, Upper Straits. And, um, yeah, the notion that I could live there became very intoxicating. Yeah, like I could almost not resist. I thought better of it at the end. Yeah, but I had found a house and I was flying there to get it because I was just like, wow, I can't believe I can live where the basketball players lived.

Yeah, so that's interesting. I don't have that. I mean, I definitely drive around there and I think like, you know, one difference I think between you and I was kids, I coveted wealth. I, okay, I didn't covet wealth in the same way you did, but I still did have like aspirations to have a lot of money.

Sure, sure, sure.

Like, and we didn't, we lived in a nice house that, well, that is the difference. We lived in a nice house, but a modest nice house. Like, my parents would get mad 'cause they would say like, it's really nice.

Like, you can't— It is, I've seen it. It's a big, big house by American standards. It's like a 4,000 square foot house.

Less than that, but— It is? Yeah, it is. But it's, yes, it is. It's a pretty—

In like an upscale neighborhood. It's in a subdivision.

Okay, this I was trying to teach Jess about subdivisions he didn't understand.

Them, right?

Being from LA, he was fighting with me about suburbs because I was like, you don't really understand suburbs, right? And he was like, what sub you live in?

Well, you don't even say subdivision, you say sub.

Did you say sub? Well, no, because we didn't say— we said neighborhood. Okay, so what neighborhood do you live in? But I don't even say that to people who don't understand it because they don't even understand what that means, right? So I said, you know, because sometimes I like to do Suburban Fridays here which is us going to a movie on Friday afternoon and then going to dinner at the Americana.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It feels so suburban to me.

Yes.

And I was— we did that. We watched Devil Wears Prada and then we went to the Italian restaurant at the Americana. And, you know, they bring out the bread. It's just all so suburban. Yeah. And I was feeling very nostalgic and I was talking about the suburbs and he was like, well, yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, Burbank is a suburb. He grew up in Burbank. Yeah. And I was like, no. And then he of course had to look up on ChatGPT where of course it says it is. And, and sure, Burbank is a suburb of LA. Exactly.

Technically it is a suburb, but a subdivision is a very specific thing.

Well, that's what I said, but you don't have subdivisions like a real— like a suburb to me.

Someone who lives— grew up in New York, there are 3 or 4 streets you enter the subdivision on, and, and through those 3 or 4 streets, a web of streets connected to it, and it's its own little world, and it's house up, it's on a main road. And yeah, yeah, and that's how everything was built where I grew up in Michigan. Yes, in my elementary, you'd go, what sub do you live in? And it was either Heritage Farms, Oxford Acres, LaSalle Gardens. There were only 4 options.

Okay, so for us, yeah, what neighborhood do you live in? Okay, it's a huge neighborhood, like 800 houses. Wowzers, big development. So it was really exciting for Halloween. You want wanted to go in Riverbrook, you know. Yeah, it was really exciting.

Was Riverbrook the nicest sub? No, so that's what I'm saying. Okay, there was a nicer sub. So many.

Okay, so many. So, um, there was St. Ives that was really, really fancy. Um, it's also funny. It is so funny. So that's— and like, I had friends who lived in these, you know. And, um, Sugar Tits. I can't believe I'm forgetting. This is— that's just because coffee. But, um, anyway, yes, there are some areas that's like, oh my God, if you live there, like, you've really made it.

Can I tell you the coveted wealth part? Yeah. So on the weekends, very, very regular activity for us, maybe even every other weekend, we would leave our shitty welfare apartment and we would get in Mom's Pinto and we would drive to Bloomfield Hills. That was a neighborhood Yeah, this is, you know, it's 25 miles away. Not a subdivision. It is a suburb. It's an area.

Okay, got it.

And we would pull up to the end of driveways and stare at the house. And my mom would say, these people went to college. Oh, like, if you want to live here, these people went to college. Then she'd drive to another nice house. This person's probably a doctor or they're a lawyer, you know, like, do you like that? Yeah, this is how you get it. We did that all the time. Yeah, I do think that compounded my obsession with like wealth in like, oh my God, that's so out of reach and we want that thing. So yeah, the lake with the basketball players' houses, I was very primed. That is—

that used to be a thing. Like, yeah, when we would go on vacations, we'd just drive around and look at houses.

It's so fun. I love it. I still love it.

It's weird now that I'm thinking about that. Like, I would never go on a vacation and do that, but we did it all the time. Anytime we went somewhere in a car, it was— yeah, we would go to neighborhoods and drive around and look at houses.

Yeah, strange. See how the other folks live, I guess.

But like, I don't know. So funny. It's all so funny.

We're watching Zillow Gone Wild. We're now addicted to it. We have a guest coming up. You don't have to deduce how— who that would be. That's right. But if you ever want to see Zillow Gone Wild, it's from the Instagram account Zillow Gone Wild. So it's these crazy listings on Zillow. Yeah. And the show goes and visits these houses and There was the cutest Indian couple last night. Oh, in Orlando, Florida. Oh, a lot of them there. And they lived in a castle. It looked like Excalibur Hotel in Vegas. Yeah. And inside were like swords and all this stuff. And they were—

Indian stuff in there, or like—

no, it was all like knights and stuff. Okay, interesting. Yeah. And, um, it's just— it's the whole— the whole tableau was so cute because they're from India, right? And the dad is like, clearly he's been successful here. Yeah. I'm like, look at this, this guy lives in a castle in America. It's just making me so happy. Like, I— you would not want to live in this castle. I know, I want it. But there was something so sweet and life-affirming.

Yeah. Of America.

This guy's in America, like 5 acres in a castle in Camelot. Yes. And then they show the children. I guess the children talked them into buying the house. And the children— it was on eBay, which I didn't even know they sold homes on eBay. Yeah, it was just really cute because the mom did all the talking. A lot of it was very— followed a lot of my stereotypes. Oh, but in the adorable way, the things I love about— like, she handled all the talking, he just kind of sat there, and then he got to show his sword, you know, like when it was time to do like the sword stuff. And then the cute thing was eventually we saw the kids. How old are they? In their 20s.

Okay, taking advantage of their parents.

And this son had like a fucking long ponytail, fucking tattoos Everywhere. And I was like, these second generation—

I know, it's so sad, actually.

You're talking about your brother just made me think of the whole, the whole scenario. And I was like, oh yeah, man, you got like— if you're, if you're immigrating here from India, like, you have a lot coming your way. There's so many challenges for you. There's racism, there's this and that. You got to find your footing. And then the reward is you'll give your, your kids this everything, and they will likely go berserk American style.

Well, it's all connected. It's— you're gonna go berserk America style because you have to be American. Yeah, yeah, you have to very quickly assimilate into this culture and be whatever it needs you to be, and you don't really know how.

It's just a hard road they, they, they, they travel, and I want to honor them. It's like, what an experience, you know? You, you, you, you go through hell back to make it here and to provide this opportunity. And they're like, I think, Dad, I'm gonna blow joints and get— that's why I'm such a good daughter. Yes, yes, it turned out to be. I've always been a good daughter.

Yeah. Oh, you mean, you mean because I did do a crazy thing?

You did a crazy thing and you could be— it, it worked out. It worked out. So you could have been moving back at 36 years old and you could have been in this doc about Zillow?

No, no, no, that's not— That was not in my cards. Maybe I wouldn't have had all this, but I would have figured out something.

Yeah, yeah, um, we have much different assessments of ourselves. Had this not worked out for me, I would be penniless. So crazy you think that. I know. So I was just talking about it with Kristen. We were talking about somebody, then it was like, 'Just get a fucking job,' right? Like, 'Just get a job.' Whether you didn't get the management position, like at some point, get a Yeah, just do it.

Yeah.

And I was, I was like enjoying that, being a little judgmental. And then I was like, you know, hon, if I'm being dead honest, like, I could not— I couldn't have a job. I could be an Uber driver, um, I could be at 7-Eleven if there's no manager, but I could not at this point have a 30-year-old boss who I thought was dumb and was making me do stupid things. I couldn't do it. I'd I would rather be penniless. I just don't have it in me.

What if you have a family? You can't just choose to be penniless. You have to support your family.

I have a family. Well, luckily there are— I would be an Uber driver. I would be something where I could be an independent contractor. What I'm saying, I, I really have always been terrible at. Yeah, and I'm admitting it. I've not been great when I have idiot bosses. And most people have idiot bosses. I'm not talking about good bosses, but your odds of getting a good boss are—

well, even if you a good boss, you're not going to see eye to eye on everything at all, and you're not going to be quiet about that. Yes, but listen, can you work on it?

No, no, no, no, no. I know who I am. I'm 51. No, no, now—

I don't mean now. I mean, like, if this was— well, it would have happened much earlier. It would have happened earlier in life. You— I think we can't tell people they can't change these behaviors Cuz like you can, you can.

Well, no, I'm telling those people you probably gotta be an Uber driver. You need to, you need to be something where you don't have a boss. Okay.

Yeah, sure. You can be something where you don't have a boss.

Yeah.

Or you can work on yourself and, and decide like, okay, this boss is fucking annoying. Like I hate him and I hate that he's telling me what to do. And guess what? I need a job. Uh-huh. And I need to support my family and I can go home and forget about this per— like you can, you're, you're 100% right.

That's how people should be. I completely agree with you. People can't—

that's how people should be, and they can be.

I am not that way. I disagree.

You, you don't give yourself enough credit for change. You've changed a lot, and it's, again, as you say, like, it's when push comes to shove. But that's what would— this would require.

You would be— I'm just telling on myself, you know. I've got some bad characteristics. I know this is one of them. I don't I don't do well with authoritarian presences, but I think you don't.

I don't. But I think you, you could in, in a specific circle, given your life had gone a different way. That's why I couldn't direct commercials.

I did a few. I got through them.

I know you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You were in one. Yes. And I was fine that day. Yeah, you were great. You were great. But I didn't like it so much that I'm like, I would rather not direct. I think that's how we're already rich. So this is my point.

If you weren't and you needed the job, you didn't need the job.

Well, we have an example. So I was broke when I worked for CPK.

I know, but— And I couldn't do it.

I couldn't have him tell me I got a 6 or a 7 on my punctuality when I had been early every day. It's rude. I couldn't resist. Yeah. I just couldn't, I couldn't handle the injustice. I know. And I lost that job or I quit it.

That's okay though, you lost a job to me, that's okay. Okay, he— that was weird.

He told you— I bet corporate told him to do that.

Yes, of course, not his fault necessarily, but whatever. You quit because you're like, I can't work for this corporation that is, is gaslighting me, lying to me, and I won't do it, so I'm quitting. That's fine. I in fact think in some ways that's noble. Okay, that doesn't mean that you couldn't have gone to a different job and worked for someone.

I was so lucky that, um, I had a job for 14 years. Exactly. But my bosses were my mom and my brother.

Yeah, but, and sometimes that's the worst. That can—

because we already knew how to deal with each other. You're right, a lot of family businesses, it does— that, that part gets tricky. It worked great for us because my mom knew, yeah, the more I stay out of his business and the more responsibility I give him, the better he'll be. Yeah, yeah. So she just stayed the fuck out of the way, and almost every year I got more and more responsibilities where I was— oh, oh my gosh, the breast, the colostrum has arrived! They make you show an ID? They did.

Well, if you take a sip and you taste alcohol, let me know.

Okay, you'll know if there's alcohol in it. How will you know if there's alcohol in it?

Because you'll drink the thing in one sip.

I'll ask Rob if he can run up and get a pack of Camel Lights.

Oh, you mean after you're done with it?

And then I'll figure out where to get cocaine. I know, I know.

If you did— if there was alcohol and you drank it and you relapsed and then you did cocaine and like, um, we could sue Erewhon.

I don't think—

and that would— oh, 100% we would.

After the point I just made, I would never—

well, I'm cutting that obviously so that we can sue. And then, um, that will be so exciting. Talk about buying a house in Bloomington Hills or whatever with the suing money. The sewage field. Hills. Bloomfield. Sugarloaf. My God, that was gonna kill me. Sugarloaf had really big houses. How's the colostrum?

This thing is fucking delicious. Oh good, I'm willing to show my ID to get it.

Oh see, look at that.

I don't know if that's true, but— oh, okay, I want to do some facts.

Yeah, look Let's do some facts. So this is, like, all connected, 'cause this is for Brandy Carlisle.

And she grew up modestly, and she could definitely— She was a coyote, as she said. Yeah, and she could definitely buy a house on Upper Straits, Middle Straits, or Lower Straits. Yeah. Or Long Lake. Those are the big boys. I really liked her.

I know, she was fantastic.

Yeah, I really, really, really liked her. Mm-hmm. What I liked most, I was talking to Phineas about her, what I love is how unapologetically ambitious she is. Is, and she doesn't pretend she's not. And I love that. And I, I think it's weirdly a good message to put out there because I think a lot of people think one need only be a genius artist, and that's not— you gotta call all the clubs and get on open mic night. And like, you know, there's just a ton of ambition. Yes, in the mix too. I agree.

Yeah. Okay, our civil partnerships. Okay, I was looking up the civil partnership partnership and, and, uh, gay marriage timeline in England. Okay, so same-sex marriage in England and Wales became legal on March 13, 2014. Um, civil partnerships were 2005. And I looked up because she said those had to be like very secular, and that's correct. They must remain legally secular, meaning the registration process cannot include religious words, music, or hymns. Oh wow.

Would they send a monitor there to make sure that didn't happen in your ceremony? I don't know. It's just the, uh, maybe honor agreement or whatever they call it.

Honor system. Yeah, maybe. Um, I don't know, but yeah. Oh, was Ross Kunkel the drummer? Did he play on Tapestry, the album Tapestry, Carole King? Yes, he did. He did do that. He did do that. Does that He did it and he does it. Oh, you said you like invented a reality or like a show or something where you don't know the person's age but you hear their voice. And because she was on the phone with her wife, her now wife, and thought she was an old lady. Yeah, yeah. Um, that is a current— that's currently a reality show.

Oh, it is? Uh-huh.

It's called Age of Attraction. It's on Netflix. Oh my goodness. Yes. Yeah.

Oh, I should watch that. You want to hear the trailer? Yeah. We might have to watch this with the kids when Zillow runs out.

I have dated guys who are my age because it was the right thing to do, and it didn't work out, obviously.

Find that person, baby.

Here you'll be dating and even committing without ever knowing how old your partner is. Commit? Are you ready? Yeah.

I don't know if these guys are my grandpa's age, but you don't know who the Spice Girls are. I couldn't name one. Best 3-minute date I've ever had. I'm not gonna lie, I like you.

Do you have mommy issues?

If you're not as hot as my mom, I'm not gonna marry you. Huh.

If you feel as if you found that special connection, all that's left is revealing your age.

I am—

get your seatbelt on. Oh my God, I didn't even know there were 60-year-olds here. Well, okay, I was gonna say my only issue with this show as I'm seeing it is they get to see each other.

So it's like, but—

or leave this experience the same way you entered it, alone.

I'm definitely worried. What would my family think? Children?

Yeah. And you hated babysitting.

All right, we got it. Yeah, I guess that shows really more about how well can you hide your age, because we're seeing the people.

We are seeing them. So there's a lot of shockers.

Like, clearly what's going to be the shockers— a lot of people are much older than they look, and a lot of people are much much younger than they look.

Yeah, but maybe— what? Yes, but I think it is saying like, that is what they look— these are the people, so, so who cares what their age is? It's just a number, Monica. It's just a number. Yeah, that's what, that's what they're trying to do. Yeah. Um, anyway, people are watching that.

I'm gonna watch that. Okay, I bet the kids would like that.

Report back. And that's it, really. Not lot of facts. Well, I really enjoyed her immensely.

Me too. Yeah, I really like her. I love her. I love her. Uh, all right, love you.