Transcript of Dr. Maya Shankar: Transform Your Mindset to Navigate Life’s Biggest Changes in 2026 | Human Behavior | E381

One way that we can get out of identity paralysis is to define yourself not simply by what you do, but by why you do that thing. But the problem is that life can effortlessly get in the way and make other plans for you, and suddenly you can be denied those labels.

Dr. Maya Shankar. She's a cognitive scientist, a former White House advisor, and the host of the award-winning podcast, A Slight Change of Plans. Today, Maya returns to YAP to share insights from her new book, The Other Side of change.

We sometimes forget that we ourselves change. When a big change happens to us, it also inspires lasting change within us. Big goals are very psychologically daunting, and it can be very discouraging to only see returns on our investment months and years down the line. Break big goals into small, manageable, achievable goals that will give you a feeling of accomplishment in the short term. The second thing, when we feel like life is out of control, how do we make ourselves feel in control in the moment? Let me give you a couple of my favorite evidence-based strategies. The first is called Yeah, fam, have you ever had life blindside you so suddenly that the person you thought you were yesterday no longer makes sense today?

Maybe it was a bad breakup you didn't see coming. A career shift, a health scare, or a curve ball so big it forces you to ask the question that most of us try to avoid. Who am I now? Nobody understands that question better than Dr. Maya Shankar. She's a cognitive scientist, a former White House advisor, and the host of the award-winning podcast, A Slight Change of Plans. Today, Maya returns to YAP to share insights from her new book, The Other Side of Change. She weaves signs together with powerful personal stories, including her own experiences with loss, uncertainty, and to show how unexpected change can reveal hidden strengths, reshape our values, and expand who we believe we can become. By the end of this conversation, you won't just see change as something to survive. You'll see change as something that can truly transform you for the better. Maya, welcome to Young and Profiting podcast.

Thanks so much for having me, Hala. It's great to be back.

I'm so happy that you're back. Last time, we talked all about decision making. We talked about your come-up story, and it was such a good episode. I was so I'm really excited to speak with you today because I remember how much I loved our previous episode. If anybody wants to tune in to that first interview that I did with Maya, we're going to play it on Friday this week, so make sure you check it out. But today we're going to talk all about change and the science of change. One of the things that really caught my attention when I was reading your book, I was just devouring your book, is this concept of identity paralysis. I'd love for us to start there. Talk to us about identity paralysis and why it's such a big issue when it comes to dealing with change.

Identity paralysis refers to the idea that when a big change happens in our lives, when that envol drops from the sky, we are often uncertain about who we are and who we could be because all of the plans we had once made for ourselves are no longer available to us. When I was a little kid, I was this budding concert violinist, and then a sudden injury derailed my dreams overnight. I remember experiencing identity paralysis as a 15-year-old because every version of future Maya had involved being a violinist in some way or another. Suddenly, the universe was telling me, Okay, you've had this career-ending injury. Now you need to chart a path forward. But I had no idea what those next steps could look like. I think one reason a lot of us experience identity paralysis is that change can really threaten our sense of identity in a really powerful way. It's taken me a while to learn this insight. But when something is taken away from us, it's often only then that we realize how much that thing had defined us in the first place. So when I lost the ability to play the violin at 15, I hadn't realized, Oh, my gosh, I spent nearly a decade of my life playing this instrument, and it is what makes me feel valuable, and I have a lot of worth, and I'm able to contribute to society.

And so when it was ripped away from me, I wasn't just grieving the loss of the violin. I was also grieving the loss of myself in a much deeper way. And so I think one way that we can get out of identity paralysis is to do something that I've only learned in my adult life, and I want to make sure your listeners have this insight so that they don't have to repeat the same mistakes I made, which is to define yourself not simply by what you do, but by why you do that thing. So I I think naturally, so many of us are used to defining ourselves by the roles we play. I think, Oh, I'm an author now. I'm a podcaster. I am a cognitive scientist. But the problem is that life can effortlessly get in the way and make other plans for you, and suddenly you can be denied those labels. Instead, you can ask yourself, Well, what is it that you love about the things you love doing? When I ask myself, Well, What did I love about playing the violin? I realized that human connection was actually at the core of that passion, that I just loved emotionally connecting with other people.

Just because I lost the violin didn't mean that I lost what made me love it in the first place. That could still be fully intact. It could be a fully intact part of my identity that I could use as a compass to guide me forward. As it turns out, I have subconsciously sought out professions that have human connection at their core and everything that I've done since. As a cognitive scientist, I studied the science of human connection, as a podcaster, as a writer. Every conversation I have is all about probing deeply into another person's psychology. I would encourage everyone listening to ask themselves, what is their why? What is the thing that makes them tick when it comes to what they love? If you can define yourself in those terms, like I am the type of person who loves caring for others or being really empathetic, or getting better at a craft, That can help be your North Star as you think about next steps.

Yeah, and I feel like it's so important for entrepreneurs, especially because we often tie our identity to our company and the thing that we're building. If it fails or isn't doing well. We feel like we're a failure and we're not doing well. We really need to separate ourselves from our companies and from work as a whole.

I completely agree. I'm, of course, not that we should do away with those role-based identities altogether. They can obviously have lots of positive effects. For example, if you are an entrepreneur, it breeds instant camaraderie with other entrepreneurs, and it gives you a sense of meaning and purpose every day that you wake up and can stave off existential angst. So there are benefits, but I really do believe that we should try and build more robust, expansive identities that are more resilient in the face of change, so that when something is taken away and we're not able to do that thing, we have something left. We don't feel that all of us has been taken away by the change. It's so interesting, Hala. I was actually just talking with someone who reached out to me. This guy had heard my TED Talk, and he said, I was a human rights lawyer, and I got a diagnosis of long COVID, and I've no longer been able to perform my lawyer duties. I just don't have the energy or the cognition to do it. He said, But I listened to your talk about trying to find your why versus your what, and I asked myself what I loved about being a human rights lawyer, and it was representing the disadvantaged among us.

And he said, I realized that I could actually still achieve that why in my new state by being an advocate for long haulers, for being an advocate for this new community that I'm a part of. And that was such a beautiful example of consistency in the throes of change.

Yeah. So really think about your why, what's driving you to do the thing that you want to do. Not necessarily the what, because what can always change and probably will change over time in this fast-paced moving world. Maya, talk to us what actually happens to our brain and biology when we're facing big change? Let's say we lose our job and we got laid off.

Change is scary for all sorts of reasons. One of the biggest reasons is that it's often accompanied by a ton of uncertainty. Our brains are not wired to like uncertainty, Hala. So one of my favorite research studies shows that we are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance of getting an electric shock.

Oh, my God.

It's wild and funny. But if you're like me, I so resonate with this. As a type A hyper planner who wants to know how the story ends, part of me is like, yes, bring on the shocks. Just the anticipatory pain of not knowing if they're coming is way worse than the actual shock itself. I think that that is one of the biggest reasons why change is so disorienting and why we often feel so unmoored. We like having plans and stability and certainty. What change does is it rips away our sense that things are actually going to be a certain way. Another thing it does is it shatters what's called the illusion control. What research shows is that most of us, as we operate in our everyday life, we fall prey to the illusion that we have far more control over how things turn out in our lives, how much we will actually dictate how our lives turn out than we actually do. It makes sense why our brains would be wired like this, right? We want to feel like we have control over our lives. Otherwise, we'd probably all descend into nihilism, feeling like, Well, what does it even matter what I do?

The world's I'm just going to decide my fate. And so, of course, from an evolutionary perspective, that feeling of control was really a big asset to us. But the downside of it is that when a change happens that's unexpected and negative, it can, in fact, shatter this illusion, and we are forced to contend with the limits of that control. I remember having a personal experience with this. I write about it in the final chapter of my book, The Other Side of Change, which is more memoir. The other chapters are devoted to other characters, I felt like, Okay, I got to walk the walk here. I've just done this study on all these other people. Now I have to turn the mirror towards myself and do some deep reflecting. But long story short, my husband and I were on this multi-year journey to try to start a family and were unsuccessful. I remember that when we found out we had had a second miscarriage with our surrogate and had lost identical twin girls, one of the things that disoriented me the most about that was the feeling that I was not in control. I'm so used to, and I'm sure your audience, of all audiences, will relate to this.

We outwork challenges. We figure out a way to hustle, to find creative solutions, to overcome barriers. I mean, that is the entrepreneurial spirit in a nutshell is, how do I still get to yes, even though I have all these barriers in my way? And that is the approach that I've always had in my life, which is, okay, when I'm facing a failure or a setback, I'm I'm just going to work harder and I'm going to be more creative and I'm going to figure it out. And one of the things that this change did for me was it humbled me in this regard. There's no such thing as trying harder in the context of fertility and starting a family. The universe doesn't care how much you want something or how hard you've worked at it. I think that's another reason why I was so eager to write this book is that I felt like that loss of control is so dispirating. In In my own life, I've been advised by lots of people, and there's this well-known mantra out there all over the internet, you can't control what happens to you, but you can control your reaction.

It's meant to be empowering, and I know there's so much ancient wisdom baked into this mantra. But when I was in the throes of my grief and frustration and feeling of helplessness, it just registered as a platitude. I was like, Okay, that sounds great, but how the heck do I actually do that? How do I change my reaction? I felt like there was no manual for me to figure out how to actually think and feel differently about the changes that I was going through. A big reason that I actually wrote The Other Side of Change was to give people that manual. I wanted to give them a companion, which was part stories that are so exceptional in their nature but are also universal in terms of the lesson they teach us, paired with science. So they actually had concrete actions they could take to start to renew their relationship with their change.

There There's so much to unpack with your story about infertility. And one of the things that really resonated with me in the book is this fact that you were grieving this role that you weren't even in yet, this role of motherhood that you always dreamed of. So sometimes we're grieving things that we've lost, that we actually had. Sometimes we're grieving change in terms of what we thought we were going to be, our future self was going to be, but now we have to come to terms that we're not actually going to be who we thought we were going to be.

That is so beautifully put and just touches my heart that that was one of your takeaways from the book, because that's exactly right. In many ways, I've written it for people who are not just in the throes of change, but are in anticipating a potential future and are wondering how change might intersect with all those dreams that they have for themselves or people who are looking to the past to figure out how they might potentially revisit a change that maybe they don't have a particularly good relationship with. I will tell you that what you said is 100% correct. I think the earliest identity that I ever attached myself to for whatever reason, growing up in an Indian-American family, I absorbed implicit messages that as a woman, becoming a mom was the end destination. That is where I was going to find my value and my worth, and that is what it meant to live a full life. When I was not achieving that, when we were consistently not actually building a family, I did feel like this part of my future was taken away. There's this concept in psychology called possible selves. Possible selves come in three different categories.

There's hope for selves. Those selves reflect our dreams and aspirations. There's feared selves. Those reflect our worries and anxieties. Then there's our expected selves. Those are the ones that we just think are most likely to happen, irrespective of whether they're good or bad. What our brains can do actually is overly constrain us in the face of a change when it comes to the possible selves we now imagine. That constraining can happen as a result of stereotypes or assumptions we make about people who are in certain situations. We might have biases around the type of possible selves that are available to a caregiver, or someone who's just lost their job, who's unemployed, or someone who's a college dropout, or someone who is a teen mom, or in my case, a woman who's child-free. What I realized from my whole experience is that I was influenced by all of these societal norms and pressures around being a child-free woman. It actually required challenging a lot of the assumptions that I'd carried as a child. I mean, one thing change can do is that it can serve as a point of revelation. It reveals to you all these beliefs that you were laboring under that may have been previously hidden from view.

Now that they're in the light, you have this rare moment to challenge them and to think, well, do I actually believe this? Do I actually believe that you cannot live a full life if you don't have kids? Do I actually believe that a woman's worth should be tied to motherhood? I don't actually think those things, but it can take a lot of unwinding. One of the things that I talk about in the book is how we can, at these moments of inflection, crack open our imagination and actually generate new, more positive possible selves in the face of these inflection points.

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You talk about defining your future self, and that's something I also talk to Ben Hardy about. It was one of those concepts that I learned, I think it was a year ago when he talked to me about future self, that really was just so powerful and stuck with me because I feel like so often we don't actually fully try to imagine who we could be in the future. But how do we do that in a way that's not fixed? Because you say humans are essentialists and that we think of ourselves as a fixed thing. How do we think about our future self while also understanding that we're going to have to adapt because not everything's going to unfold exactly how we think it's going to.

Let me give you a couple of my favorite evidence-based strategies for unlocking are potential future selves that are maybe less constrained than the ones our brains naturally come up with. So one of my favorites is to seek out moments of moral elevation. So what's moral elevation? It's that warm, fuzzy feeling we get in our chest when we witness someone else's extraordinary actions. So that might be their kindness or self-sacrifice or their courage or their resilience or their ability to forgive. And what's so interesting about moral elevation when we witness someone else's moral beauty is that it doesn't just feel good. It actually changes our brains. In seeing someone else violate our assumptions about what humans are capable of in the most beautiful way, it actually cracks open our own imagination about what is possible for us. One of the people that I profile in the book was sentenced to nine years in adult prison for a car jacking he committed when he was 16 years old. He had had such a promising future, Hala. It's such a tragic story of someone making a really, really terrible mistake just to try to prove something to the boys in his neighborhood.

It just completely derailed his life. I remember this guy's name is Dwayne. He told me, Maya, it wasn't my morning, all the futures I'd want to imagine for myself, it was fearing who all I might become behind bars because he had an image of what it meant to be a prisoner. He was worried, Am I going to develop a gambling habit? Am I going to become violent for the first time? Am I going to be able to protect myself from violence? He was so scared. And about a year into his sentence, he has a powerful experience with moral elevation. He runs into one of his fellow inmates, and this guy, Balal, totally defies Dwayne's expectations of what it means to be a prisoner. He shows such deep care for all the younger prisoners, teaching them how to box and to protect themselves, which Dwayne thought was not possible in prison. He thought you had to be ruthlessly self-interested in order to survive. He also carried himself in such a dignified way. Dwayne describes it as being like a man in uniform. He would get up an hour before the guards came over for count time, and he would have done 250 pushups in his cell before that even happened.

Dwayne was so inspired by Balal's example because it showed him that maybe you didn't have to be a certain way just because you were a prisoner. It was with this empowered mindset that when he discovers a book of poetry and reads a poem that represents young men and boys of color in prison, he thinks to himself for the first time, Maybe I could be a poet. I can't do what Balal can do. That's what he says, right? I'm not strong. I'm not going to be able teach the kids out of box, but I can represent them through my words. Fast forward a couple of decades, Duane is a Yale law school graduate, and the Garther genius prize winner, and writes some of the most gorgeous poetry I've ever read about the experience of young men of color in prison. I share this example because moral beauty and the experience of moral elevation is actually all around us if we are just willing to be keen observers, if we just are to be in the moment and pay attention. You can be inspired across domains. One experience that I reflected on, in which I had an experience of moral elevation, was witnessing, which was after the horrific shooting at Mother Emmanuel Church in South Carolina, the daughter of one of the victims publicly extended forgiveness to the racist killer.

I remember just being absolutely stunned by her capacity for forgiveness. The interesting thing about Moral Elevation Hala is that it's not even like I was looking to forgive anyone in my life at that moment. This is not just simple inspiration. It's that her example made me see that maybe I am capable as a human of so much more than I thought possible. Maybe I have a greater capacity for kindness. Maybe I have a greater capacity for ingenuity, for empathy, you name it. But that's the power of what these small moments can do to our brains.

You have so There's so many inspiring stories in the book. I think one of the themes throughout the book is basically that change can really unlock strengths that you never even knew that you had. I think you talk about a girl, Christine Ha, who I think she was a blind chef, right? Can you tell us about her story?

Yeah, her story is so remarkable. Christine had always loved cooking and recreating the Vietnamese dishes that she had grown up with, given her mom's cooking. When she was in her early she was diagnosed with a rare autoimmune condition that left her permanently blind. To our earlier discussion, Hala, in that moment, Christine saw all the future versions of herself that involved being a cook disappear from sight. And yet, with a combination of incredible discipline and the belief that she could actually overcome whatever stereotype she had in her mind around her limitations, she ended up learning how to cook without sight, and then went on to win season 2 of master chef. She owns two restaurants and has published a cookbook. One of the things I also talk about in the book is that it's one thing to generate these new possible selves. You can generate possible selves by, again, the experience of moral elevation You can also read fiction. Fiction is seen as a, quote, identity laboratory in which you can try on new versions of yourself and experiment with different ways of being and making decisions in this really psychologically safe space. That's really cool.

You can also remind yourself that even though life has taken a turn, you still have all the same skills and talents and abilities that you had before the change. The relevant question to ask yourself is, who else can this person be? This person who has had all of these life experiences and has accrued all of this wisdom and knowledge. But it's not enough to simply brainstorm who you can be. You actually have to put in the hard work to do it. Following the story of Christine Ha, I actually unpack the science of motivation, and I share tactical strategies people can use to actually achieve their long-term goals and to realize those future possible selves.

We can definitely talk about ways to motivate ourselves. I've got a little toolkit section that I want to do with you in terms of how we can foster change, take on new things. But before we do that, one of the things that you talk about in your book is the difference between resilience and reinvention. Can you break that down for us?

As you mentioned, I really see change as this incredible moment, this rare moment to unlock strengths and perspectives and values within ourselves that we didn't know were possible. One helpful way to talk about this is when a really terrible thing happens to us, it can feel like a personal Apocalypse. It can feel like the world we knew and grew to become comfortable with no longer exists. What's interesting about the word Apocalypse is that it's actually derived from the Greek word Apocalypse. Apocalypse means revelation. That etymology is so instructive because what it says is that, yes, change can upend us, but it can also reveal things to us. I think most of us, as we operate in our lives, think we have a fairly good understanding of who we are. But the reality is that that image we have in our minds of ourselves is based on a limited set of data points that we happen to collect over our lives based on the somewhat arbitrary set of experiences we had. Now, when we're thrust into a totally new environment and have to face all the demands and stresses and constraints of that new environment, it can often reveal things to us.

For example, about the beliefs we are carrying or about the abilities that we have or about the perspectives we have. All of that gives us the opportunity to think about our relationship with each of those entities and to see them a new. I I think this actually leads to the thesis of my work overall, both for my podcast, The Slight Change of Plans, and then also this book, which is that we sometimes forget that we ourselves change. When a big change happens to us, it also inspires lasting change within us. This is actually a very hopeful message because when we're really daunted at the outset of a change, if we remind ourselves that we're actually going to become from new people on the other side of it with new perspectives and new values and new abilities and new ways of seeing the world, we might feel so much more capable of actually surviving the change than we do just given our present day self. We often forget that we change, so much so that scientists have coined a term for this. It's called the end of history illusion. It refers to the idea that while we fully acknowledge we've changed considerably in the past, so show me pictures of high school, Maya, and I will do everything in the world to distance myself from that person.

I think I'm a completely different person now. But if you were to ask me, Hey, Maya, do you think you're going to change a lot in the future? I'd be like, Oh, no, I'm totally done now. What you see is what you get. Finish product here. And it's this funny little game our brains play on us, which is, yeah, we've changed a bunch before, but what you see today is the finished product. And of course, we are always changing, and a big unexpected change in our lives can accelerate those internal shifts. I see change is carrying so much possibility for self-growth and transformation. What I have found from everyone that I've interviewed is that while they might not have been happy that the change happened, which is so expected, I want to be very truthful with folks, who's going to invite illness or joblessness or heartbreak into their lives knowingly? Of course not, they were all very happy with the person that they became as a result of the change. I mean, there's a reason I call my book The Other Side of Change, is because there is a promised land in that space that can be very hope-giving in these moments, that can be very life-giving in these moments of total distress.

I feel like the most successful people typically have gone through the most challenges and the most pain and have learned the most from all the suffering that they went through. When I listen to you, one of the stories of my own life that always comes up is I used to work at Hot97. That was the first job that I had. I used to work at a radio station. It's a very popular radio station. I actually dropped out of college to work there. I worked for free for Angie Martinez for three years. Then they fired me when I asked to get paid. I had identified myself as Kala from Hot97, all my social media handles, everything. Then it literally felt like a part of me had died, and I was so devastated. But I I learned so much from that experience. I learned to own what I do, to start my own business, to never let anybody dictate my career, to never let somebody take advantage of me. There were so many lessons that I learned from that failure that changed who I was, to your point, and then enabled me to then start my company is about to hit eight figures.

It would have never happened had I not gotten fired from my job.

I'm always so thankful, and there's that cheesy quote, Rejection is redirection, and all that. There's all these cheesy quotes about these types of situations, but it's really true. You become a stronger person and a smarter person and a more capable person after you have some setbacks.

I find that story so inspiring, and I love that you've taken the time to reflect on all that you've learned, because that is actually a key part of unlocking that growth, right? You have to actually take a step back and almost do an audit of yourself to figure out, Well, what did I learn? And what patterns of behavior were on display in this thing? And can I improve on those? And what have you. And your story is reminding me of two stories from the book. One features a young woman, Olivia, who has a massive brainstem stroke in her early 20s that leaves her with locked-in syndrome. So locked-in syndrome is most people's worst nightmare. In a nutshell, the damage in your brain means that you cannot voluntarily control any of the muscles in your body, except for the muscles that control your eyes. The only way of communicating with people is by blinking. People will move their finger along the letters of the alphabet, and you just have to blink when they get to the right letter. That's how you painstakingly spell out words to the people around you. When you're locked in, you fully retain all of your cognition.

You feel the same emotions as before. Everything internally is working, but you cannot communicate. It's so interesting because you talked about some of the lessons you learned afterwards around empowerment and other aspects of your identity. What Olivia learned from this experience, which was so interesting and so unexpected, is how beholden she was to other people's perception of her. Because she realized that when her boyfriend's family, who she had never been able to impress before, came into the hospital, that is when the reality of her situation really dawned on her and she felt the enormity of it. It wasn't her just grappling with how awful it is to not to be able to move your body in that way. It was not being able to curate an image of herself for others. It was not being able to be a certain way to impress other people. And her change, almost by brute force, caused Olivia to have to confront who she really was. There's no version of curation when you're in that setting. Over time, especially by seeing how much her care team, a physical therapist and rehab specialist, love loved her as a real person who was unfiltered and unvarnished and not that perfect version of her that she'd always tried to maintain, that she started to love herself.

That is the power of change. You get these unexpected lessons. She said she might have gone her entire life not knowing how much she was placing herself worth in other people's opinions had this not happened. And that now, as a 27-year-old, she feels more self-assured and more self-confident than she ever could have imagined. She's so grateful to her change because she said, This mental state that I'm in of self-assuredness could have taken me decades to achieve if I had gotten there at all. I think there's something so beautiful in that. There's another woman, Tara, who has a really traumatic experience in childhood, and it leads her to develop a deeply avoidant attachment style. Then through another big change in her life, she recognizes this avoidance and is able to slowly work a more secure form of attachment. Again, I find it so inspiring when I learn about how sometimes the hardest, worst moments of our lives can actually be the keys that unlock these new versions of who we can be.

Something that is something else that changes within us when we encounter change is our own values. What things typically surface values-wise when we're coming across a big change?

Oh, all sorts of things. I We think one misconception we have is that most of the values we have in our minds and our beliefs and our ideas about the world are the result of really conscious, deliberate reasoning, and that we put so much thought into all of the beliefs that we have. No, we haven't. Most of them we absorb subconsciously through societal messaging, from messages from our caregivers growing up. Those are particularly powerful because when we're children, those messages are wrapped up in our sense of love and belonging. We don't want to challenge the beliefs that are passed down to us. Then there's pop culture and teachers and classmates. We are absorbing ideas all the time. Most of them are worth revisiting at some point. But because we're all so busy, it's not like Hala every morning I wake up and I'm like, What value would I like to revisit today? None of us have time for that. We don't have time to interrogate everything we believe. But when we go through a change, we can then reflect after the fact. Or if we're anxious and nervous about a future change, we can reflect on what it is that's making us so nervous about it.

That will reveal to us what our values are. There's this incredible story that I write about in the book featuring a woman named Ingrid. She felt so much shame around her Colombian heritage and some of the Indigenous practices that her family engaged in over the years. What's so interesting about her story, she ends up getting amnesia as a result of a biking accident, and she loses so many of her memories. The slate is wiped clean, and she has to revisit all of these new memories that are resurfacing in her brain after the injury, a new. Gosh, I love the story so much because what happens is when her family's stories start coming back to her one by one. She has not remembered at this moment that she had deep shame around those stories. When they rush back to her, she thinks, Oh, my God, these stories are incredible. They're so filled with delight, and they make me feel a sense of nostalgia and a desire to go back home. I love these stories. They are incredible. I need to share them with everyone I know. No one had heard, by the way, of these stories.

Her boyfriend hadn't heard about them. None of her friends in the United States had heard about them. And so she starts sharing them liberally. Only a few weeks later does the memory resurface that she had once been ashamed of those stories. But it was too late. She had already made up her mind without all those biases that she had been carrying for so long about the incredible beauty that was stored within her rich cultural heritage. I share this because it's a wonderful reminder that none of the beliefs we carry are these sacred immutable truths about the world. They're just things that we come up with at some point. It turns out when Ingrid was a little kid, her mom had cautioned her about sharing her family's stories because she was worried that Ingrid might receive discrimination or prejudice or maybe the threat of violence from people who didn't understand. Ingrid had overinterpreted that message to be a sign that maybe there was something wrong with her family. Each of us can look at our beliefs and ask ourselves, like a scientist, How did I actually arrive at this belief? Would the people I trust, endorse this belief?

What evidence in theory would convince me to change my mind? Is there data out there that would actually contradict my current belief and make me want to update it? We need to be curious and to treat the beliefs we carry and our values as almost hypotheses that we should be continually testing.

How do we approach life in a way that's not so reactive, right? We're always embracing change. Bad things happen. We lose our job. We go through breakups. People die. Life changes. But I don't think it's the best approach to just be reactive and deal with it in the moment. Is there anything that we can do to better prepare ourselves for change or evaluate our values proactively? Or what can we do proactively for this?

One thing I found to be really helpful to do, whether you're in the throes of change or outside of a change, is what's called a self-affirmation exercise. I had an experience with this actually after the second miscarriage where we had just found out we had lost the twins, and my husband came into our bedroom and I was just beside myself with grief. And he's a software engineer, so he didn't know he was engaging me in a self-affirmation exercise. But he looked at me and he said, Mai, which is his pet name for me, he was like, Why don't we just say a couple of things that we're grateful for? I remember being like, No. How dare you bring toxic positivity into this bedroom. You take your Instagram self-help stuff into that corner over there. I'm staying here under the cover, feeling sorry for myself. So I was not having it, Hala. And I After such a jarring day where we had seen heart beats on the ultrasound, and then we got this horrible news hours later, I was in no mood to reflect on what I was grateful for. But he wore me down, and I think probably I thought at some point, Let me just get this guy off my case and just do this thing so we could get to bed.

But something magical happened when I started to do it. I remember thinking, Oh, I'm so grateful that I've worked with the same people for over 10 years. The same people that I worked in public policy with still work with me today. I'm so grateful that I get to do these Zoom workouts with my incredibly positive trainer, Matt. I love being an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. I love hosting a slight change of plans. I get to meet the most incredible people and interview them. And podcasting is such a joy. And as this list flowed out of me, I started to realize that my life was so much richer and more multifaceted than I've given myself credit for. So sometimes when we are so single-mindedly focused on a goal, and I imagine, again, so many people listening, they have their heart set on achieving a goal. We can develop tunnel vision. We can forget that there are so many other identities that matter to us that we take great pride in that are still very much intact. And so after I did this exercise, did I feel amazing going to bed that night? Of course not.

But did I feel like not all of me had been taken away by this change in plans? Yes, absolutely. Did I feel like there was still fullness and richness in my life? Absolutely. And so I would urge people to do a self-affirmation exercise, no matter what stage of life they're in, because it will reflect back to you what your values are, what you care about in this world. You can just take five minutes and you write down every identity that means something to you and that you value in your life, or that means something to other people because we also can be in service of others, and that's a huge source of joy and satisfaction for us. If you are in the throes of a change right now, you want to focus on those values and identities that are not threatened by the change. That's the power of the self-affirmation exercise. So yes, I don't currently have a job. Yes, I don't currently have my significant other because we just broke up. But wow, here are all these other things that can make me feel stable and secure during this point of transition.

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You talk about so many incredible tools and strategies in the book, and I thought we could play a fun game to get some of these strategies out where I throw out a scenario and you tell me, what are some tools strategies, things that we should do if we're in this scenario. This is so fun. Yes. It's called the Change Toolkit Live.

All right, so the first one- I love this, Paula. I've never got to do something like this where it's like a game shift. Really? Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing.

Okay.

First scenario. Somebody has just been laid off from their job deeply tied to their identity. What tools would help them navigate the first two weeks?

I'm going to share one around rumination because I think what can often happen is that we blame ourselves or we start mentally spiraling around all of the negative exchanges that we've had, all the negative interactions. Our boss might have been terrible, and we just fixate over and over and loop through the thoughts over and over and over again. I feel like I have a PhD in rumination, girl. I'm a professional ruminator. One of my favorite techniques to help stave off some of the rumination... Actually, can I share, too, as part of this?

Of course, yeah.

Okay, I'll just share, too.

You share as many tools and tools as you want.

There's a couple. The first is called mental time travel. Our brains have this remarkable ability to move forward in time and backward in time, and we can use this to our advantage when we find ourselves in these mental virals. You can travel backward in time to remind yourself of instances where you show greater resilience in the face of adversity than you previously thought. That helps bring you some confidence in this much-needed moment. You can also travel to the future to remind yourself that your current situation is transient. You can ask yourself, How am I going to feel about this same situation five days from now, five years from now, 15 years from now, 20 years from now? You probably will feel the same way about this five days from now. But in five years from now, when you found your way through it, or definitely 15 years from now, when, Paula, you look back at that firing, you actually see that it was a blessing in disguise because it unlocks all these strengths within you and it led you on this incredible path where you are such a badass businesswoman, you will see it through a new perspective.

I use mental time travel all the time because let's say I've had a negative experience with a coworker and I find myself looping over it. In some cases, honestly, because I'm feeling embarrassed, I'm like, Oh, God, why did I say that? That was so awkward. What did I... And then I think, Am I going to still feel this was as significant or important in five years from now? Almost certainly not. They might not even be my coworker anymore. I think that can help breed psychological distance, which is what we're after. Another tool is to try and understand, because you talked about in this hypothetical that their identity is really tied to their job. It's to engage in what's called affect labeling. Oftentimes in the aftermath of a change, we just have this cloud of negative emotions, and we often don't even know what's in there. What are the different emotions that I'm feeling? One technique that can be really helpful is to just label those emotions with as much specificity as you possibly can. What does that look like? I'm feeling grief. I'm feeling resentment. I'm feeling frustration. When you give emotions labels, you shift away from the perspective of being the emotion, of embodying the emotion, to someone who simply has the emotions.

When we create that distance between ourselves and our emotions, it actually allows us to see them more clearly and to actually try and problem-solve and develop more constructive solutions. The final one I wanted to share is something called self-distancing. This is where we try to step outside of ourselves and have more of a third-party bird's-eye view of our situation. Two things can happen in the aftermath of, for example, us losing our job. The first is that we are losing some of our self-confidence, and we might be self-berating, and we're not exactly our best hype people in that moment. If you're anything like me, you're not your best hype person. So what you can do is pretend that you're coaching a friend. Imagine you're just a fly on the wall observing this situation happening to yourself, and you're giving yourself advice. You're saying, Maya, I do I want to remind you you have these incredible strengths. I do want to remind you that there are so many other options you can explore right now. And what research shows is that that will help you meet yourself with more self-compassion, which we know, by the way, is not just woo-woo, nice self-taught.

It actually leads to better, more productive outcomes in the longer term. It will help you to see your situation with more objectivity, given the hormonal fog you might have surrounding it. You can do a quick version of this where if you're coaching yourself, rather than talking to yourself in the first person like, Oh, I just need to get a grip, you say something like, Maya, you need to get a grip. And that slight tweak, it sounds like such a funny little gimmicky thing, has been shown to be so powerful across a range of negative emotions in a wide set of domains. And so, again, all of these techniques are meant to just help you breed some space between you and the challenge that you're experiencing.

Okay, scenario number two. Suddenly, When you go through a breakup and you feel like your world has collapsed overnight, your significant other will not speak to you and you're craving closure, how do you move forward?

God, I'm getting anxious just hearing about this. I've totally been there and done that. Yes, we do want closure. We do want clarity. Our brains desire Black and white answers. The reality is that when we climb out of the rubble of a negative change, all there is is gray space around us. That lack of clarity, not having clear, definitive answers can really crush us. One woman that I wrote about in the book experienced heartbreak out of nowhere. Her husband of decades had an affair and decided he wanted to get divorced, even though she wanted to make it work. She was just so grief-stricken, and she was desperate to find answers. She went on this solo canoe trip, and she was playing through every single scenario that they had been through, and she was vacillating between extremes, like it's all his fault. No, it's all my fault. It turns out that her quest for closure actually just led her into a worse mental state than before. Guess what did help? Being part of a community. She visited this really funny-sounding museum called the Museum of Broken Relationships in Croatia, which has all these exhibits that are dedicated to relationships that at one point failed.

As Florence was walking through the museum reading about these love-lorn tales, she started to see that, one, she was not alone in her heartbreak and the emotions that she felt. I think a lot of times when we're ruminating, our brains can trick us into believing that we're exceptional in some way, that the very complicated knot, our mind is tied is unlike anyone else's, and that we can't possibly learn from other people's experiences. But she's walking around the museum, she's reading all these exhibits, she's like, Wait a second. This singular feeling of heartbreak is so universal. Actually, I can't absorb the lessons that they have to teach me. What she learns from all of their stories is that everyone had unanswered questions on the other side of heartbreak. The idea of closure was fool's gold. And so what she actually had to do was to become more comfortable with the idea of living in a world where there were so many unknowns. She ultimately, at the end of her experience, comes to see that there's a little bit of magic in that, in not knowing exactly how life will unfold and not knowing exactly what the answers are to all of her questions around her heartbreak, and that it was still possible to live a happy, fulfilling life without having those answers.

One of the devilish features of rumination is that it can trick us into believing that if we can get that clarity, somehow everything will be fine. It's like, if I can just figure out why they broke up with me, then I'll never have someone break up with me again. If I can just figure out why they betrayed me, then I'll never be betrayed again. If I can just figure out why I drove them away, then I'll never... That is all just fiction. That's a game that our brain is playing with us because it's desperate for some certainty or closure, but it actually isn't. All of this to say, find community with people, not necessarily who are going through exactly the same thing that you're going through. In fact, one of the theses of my book is that we can learn from people whose stories don't look anything like ours. In fact, the cancer patient had way more in common with the woman whose husband had had an affair because they both experience feelings of betrayal. Just Find community with people who are struggling with the lack of closure they have in their lives. Why did this happen to me?

They're asking those sorts of questions. You can learn a lot. The second piece of advice is to seek out awe-inspiring experiences. So awe can come in all sorts of forms. We already talked about moral beauty. That's one source of awe, just other people's extraordinary ways of being. But there's also other types out there, right? Nature, music, art, the complexity of a math theorem. Psychologist Dacher Keltner finds awe as the feeling of being in the presence of something vast that transcends our understanding of the world. It might be this epic skyscraper, or it might be a beautiful vista, or an incredible hook that was written by a pop musician, you name it, but so many things can fill us with this feeling of wonder. What awe does to the brain is that it reduces activity in the areas of our brain that are devoted to self-immersion. What that does allows us to step outside of ourselves, to remember that we are part of a collective whole, and to gain some distance from our current preoccupations and worries and anxieties. We almost have all gives us these transcendent moments where we can see our situations for what they are and see them with much greater perspective, like cosmic perspective, which I have found to be very helpful.

I hope anybody who's going through a breakup takes that advice to heart because I feel like it was so good. Okay, scenario number three. It's the start of the This is a new year. You want a fresh start, but you fear repeating your old patterns. What's the best way to scientifically start off the year differently?

This is one of my favorite ones because this is about the science of motivation, which you said we'd come back to. A couple of things you could do. One, the beginning of the new year is actually a great time to set forth these goals because of what's known as the fresh start effect. There's a couple of techniques that I have in my motivation toolkit that I use all the time. The first is to break big goals into small goals. Big goals are very psychologically daunting. When I signed my book deal, I never thought I was ever going to write a book hauler. I swear to God, for those first four or five months, I was like, Okay, I'm going to have to give my advance back. I don't know if I'm going to make this What's going to happen? Because all the big goals we have are often multi-year goals. You don't feel a sense of accomplishment or completion in the short term. It can be very discouraging to only see returns on our investment months and years down the line. Now, if you can take a big goal and break it into mini goals.

For example, okay, I'm not going to write the whole book today, but let's say I just search for really fascinating people over the next two weeks just to try to identify amazing humans that I can interview. That's one of my concrete small goals. One, I'm going to feel a lot of pride having accomplished that two weeks later, so that's going to give me a boost in my motivation. But two, it helps avoid what's known as the middle problem. The middle problem refers to the idea that motivation levels do not remain stable and consistent over time. We get a huge boost in motivation at the outset of working toward a goal, and then we get a huge boost in motivation right when we're near the end, when we can see the finish line. But there's actually a lull in motivation in that middle section. When you have a year long goal, the middle section is months long. When you have a weekly goal, the middle section is days long. When you only have a couple of days, you're less likely to fall off the wagon and just give up on the goal altogether. That's number one.

Break big goals into small, manageable, achievable goals that will give you a feeling of accomplishment in the short term. The second thing, and this is one of my absolute favorite is called temptation bundling. This is when we pair, I think we might have talked about this one. This is when we pair the challenging thing that we're trying to make progress on with an immediately rewarding thing that we otherwise wouldn't give ourselves access to. I kid I do not, I clearly am a child. When I was writing the book, I would have a little bowl of candy on my desk, and I would allow myself to eat as much of these little coffee Chews as I wanted during my writing sessions. But I was never allowed to have the coffee Chews outside of that space. Or in other cases, I will say my favorite music to listen to when I'm working out, and I'm not allowed to listen to that music when I'm not working out. What happens is that the challenging thing becomes mentally associated with this really positive It's a fun thing, and you start wanting to return to it with more frequency. The last insight that I would share speaks to another funny quirk in the brain, which is around how we build memories of things in the past.

It turns out that when we reflect on an experience, not all moments are created equal. We give a lot more weight to the peak of that experience, so the most emotionally intense moment, negative or positive. Then we give a lot of weight to the end of that experience. It's called the peak-end rule. What does this mean? It means that we can actually shape the end of our experience to reflect back on it more favorably. What does this look like in practice? Well, if I have a really challenging workout, I might tack on a gentle stretching session just at the end, just for two minutes, because that I know is going to be over weighted in my memory. Or let's say there's something really, really uncomfortable, bashing my head against the wall trying to get this paragraph out. But I end the writing session by just mapping out a couple of bullet points for my next chapter. Now I'm going to reflect back on it more favorably. You can deliberately shape that end to make it more likely that you return to your goal the next time and more likely that you don't fall into old habits.

Last scenario. You're an entrepreneur and you feel overwhelmed by uncertainty. You have no idea where the market is going. You have no idea how your business is going to go. You just feel overwhelmed with uncertainty. What are some tools you can use so you don't spiral?

One tool is called cognitive reappraisal. This That means deliberately reinterpreting an event in order to alter the emotional impact that it has on you. So one thing you can do in these moments is to remind yourself that the reason why you're so fearful of these future outcomes is because you really, really care about your business succeeding. And that's actually a great thing. To care so much about something that it causes anxiety is actually not something to be taken for granted. Lots of people have complacency when they go through their lives, and all they want is a sense of meaning and purpose. We also see the efficacy of this approach when it comes to stress. When we're feeling stressed, we often just think it's a really bad thing, but we know actually stress has positive impacts, and stress is a signal to our brain that the thing we're about to do really matters to us. That's exciting That's why we're having this adrenaline-based response. I care about how this podcast is going to go with Hala. I care about how high quality my book is going to be. That's why I'm feeling stressed. Okay, so that's one.

The second, which is counterintuitive, is to distract yourself a little bit. Distraction gets a really bad rep, but modern research shows that it can actually be a really healthy coping mechanism for dealing with these kinds of ruminative spirals and just negative events in general. I think there's a narrative out there that if we don't directly and persistently confront our negative emotions or our biggest fears all the time, then down the line, those emotions will rear their ugly heads with even greater force. But modern research shows that's simply not true. For a lot of people, distraction is actually a very good strategy to have in their toolkit and can give them much needed relief from that anxiety and stress so that they are more resilient longer term.

What are ways that we can make sure that when we feel like life is out of control, how do we make ourselves feel in control in the moment?

So one thing I do, and I've only done this maybe in recent years, but it's actually helped, is to introduce a really small daily ritual into our lives that we do without fail. For me, and I've brought it to this interview, I make a cup of Indian-style tea. I cut up fresh slices of ginger, cardamom, Asam tea, and it is a whole thing that I do. And when I travel, I pack my tea bags, and I pack the creamer I use, and I pack the ginger. I'm making this tea in hotel rooms. Wherever I go, my tea is the thing that grounds me in my morning. The reason why rituals are so important is that they signal to our brain that despite the fact the world might be swirling around us, despite Despite the fact that so much is uncertain, there are still some things that are fully in our control that we can introduce into our lives no matter what. There have been moments, by the way, Hala, where I have felt like this warm, cozy tradition, ritual thing, doesn't fit my day. I'm having a terrible day and I don't want to do it, but I do it anyway.

And subconsciously, I do think that it brings me some reassurance. Like, okay, there's something safe and cozy that still exists in my current world, which is making me feel totally disoriented.

Let's say somebody is in the messy middle right now. They're currently going through change, whether that's losing their job, a breakup, something terrible has happened to them, and they're currently going through a change. What do you want to tell them in this moment?

I want to tell them that, one, I feel you. I've been in your position so many times, and it is very, very scary to be right in the thick of it. At the same time, I have come out the other side of change in my own life, more hopeful and more optimistic than I ever thought I could be. If you would ask me in my moments of my most harrowing grief, will anything good ever come out of this? Is there anything redemptive about this situation? Will you ever become a better person? I would have been like, of course not. This is only bad. And so as someone who would lean more cynical in that department, I have been so heartened to see that what I'm talking in my book, the premise of my book of us becoming new people on the other side in ways that lead to richer, better lives, has come true for me. I just have the firsthand experience of having been so transformed by the wisdom and insights from the people I interview and by the science of it all that I feel like I have a much better relationship with change.

I am so happy about the person I've become as a result of the hardest moments in my life. I have two allergies. One is soy and the other is clichés and platitudes. I'm the first to be like, really, Maya? There's a true silver lining in change. I promise you this is real talk. Again, the change itself might not be anything you ever willed, but I promise you that through a combination of revelation and growth, you will unlock parts of yourself that you did not even know existed. And there will be gratitude around the incredible person that you become.

For entrepreneurs tuning in, a lot of are really high achievers. We're masters of our field, and sometimes change happens where we've got to start from scratch. And suddenly we need to grapple with being a beginner again, which could be really hard. Any advice for folks who might be having to start from scratch right now, maybe reinvent their careers?

Yes, because I experienced a version of this actually. Going back to my violin story, I had spent almost 10 years in my childhood honing a craft and devoting my whole life to being a violinist. I was studying at Juilliard My teacher was Itzal Perlman. I was on the up and up, and all of a sudden, the universe was like, No, you're not going to do this anymore. And I had to figure out how to start from scratch. And since then, I've had many career pivots in which I've had to start from scratch. So I'm very familiar with this mindset. One thing that has really helped me is to remind myself that just because it is technically starting from scratch, all of the soft skills that I've built over the course of my professional life and my personal life will service me well in this next pursuit. So yes, did being able to play complex passages on the violin help me as a cognitive scientist? Of course not. But did learning how to be really resilient in the face of failure? Did overcoming stage fright because I had to perform in front of thousands of people?

Did cultivating grit and perseverance? Did those things help me in my role as a cognitive scientist? And to this day in my various pursuits? So much so, right? And so the question to ask yourself when you are starting fresh is, what are the skills that I've built previously that I can still carry with me into this next space? And then you will feel less ill-equipped, less unprepared for this new moment. You actually have so many more capabilities than you might have thought that are going to help you kick ass at this new venture.

So I usually end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests. The first one is all about taking action, actionable advice, but I feel like you spent most of the interview giving us actionable advice, so we're going to skip that one. The last question that I ask is, what is your secret to profiting in life? Now, this show is called The Yung and Profiting, as you know. This could be profiting in all aspects of your life. What would you say your secret is?

One of my favorite insights from the research, because it's so heartening, is that helping others is one of the best ways to boost our own well-being. I had this conversation with the former US surgeon general, Vivek Morthy, on my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, and he was telling me that in the face of the loneliness epidemic, one of the best antidotes is not necessarily self-care. It is actually just going out into the community and doing something to make other people's lives better. It doesn't have to involve starting some epic nonprofit. It can be as small as helping someone cross the street or smiling at a stranger, or you notice someone in a challenging situation you just stop by and see if you can help them. These small moments have outsized positive impacts on our mental health and our sense of well-being and our self-compassion because we see ourselves being valuable in the world around us. I try to practice that as much as I can in my daily life, and I would encourage everyone listening to do that, too, because it'll just make the world a better place.

Maya, I love having you on the show. You are always welcome back. You just give such incredible advice, and you've got so much great content. You're such a pro. Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?

So the first thing folks can do is to pre-order a copy of my book, The Other Side of Change, as a first-time author. I would really appreciate this. And pre-orders really, really help signal to bookstores that there's interest in this book. So you can find The Other Side of Change wherever you buy books. This book was truly a passion project for me. It features stories that folks will not have heard on my podcast, and it's been years in the making. So I'm just so excited to share this project with people, and I want to hear from as many readers as possible about what their reactions are. You can reach out to me directly. I try to respond to everyone on Instagram at Dr. Maya Shunker. That's D-R-M-A-Y-A-L-R. S-h-a-n-k-a-r. I would love to hear from you after you've had a chance to read the book. Then, of course, there's my pride and joy, my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans. We're just entering, I think, our fifth year of making the show. Of course, I would love to have you tune into the show and to let me know what your thoughts are there, too.

Amazing.

We'll stick all those links in the show notes, all the links to your social as well.

Maya, I know your book is going to be a best seller. I'm so excited for you. So congratulations and thanks for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me, Hala. It's always a pleasure to receive your brilliant questions, and I love the energy that you bring to your show.

Yeah, Pam, I just adored my conversation with Maya. I love how she brings clarity to the chaos loss of change, and she doesn't sugarcoat how disorienting it can feel when life pulls the rug out from under you. But Maya also showed us through science and stories that these moments can actually carry enormous potential and positivity. One of the things that stuck with me was her idea of defining yourself by your why instead of your what. So many of us, especially us entrepreneurs, we tie our worth to our job title, our success, our company, our relationship, or a goal that we're chasing. But like Maya said, the what can disappear overnight. That's why the why is so important. The why is what stays with you. When you understand the deeper motivation behind your passions, you can rebuild in any direction, and that is a powerful shift. I also loved her concept of expanding our possible selves. We often assume our future is a narrow continuation of who we are today, that we're not going to change much, but change can actually widen that path. But we don't need to wait for a heartbreak in order to see a different version of who we could become.

We can seek out moral elevation, read fiction that stretches our identity, or simply ask, who else can this version of me become? This will open up possibilities that you may have never considered. Maya also gives us practical tools for navigating uncertainty, mental time travel can help break rumination loops by reminding us that today's crisis won't hold the same emotional weight 5, 10, or 15 years from now. Labeling emotions with precision gives you distance from them. And self-distancing, coaching yourself like you would a friend, creates Clarity you need to move forward with confidence. And finally, her self-affirmation exercise is such a valuable reframing tool. When a singular part of your identity falls apart, it's easy to forget the rest of who you are. Listing out all your identities, all your values, all your relationships that are still intact can restore stability in moments of apeival. These insights remind us that change isn't just something we endure. It's something that can expand us, strengthen us, reveal who we're becoming. And the best thing is that you get to choose who you become on the other side. If you resonated with Maya's wisdom on turning change into transformation, make sure you go grab her book, The Other Side of Change.

It's packed with stories and signs that will shift how you see every curveball life throws your way. And before we go, I want to spotlight a YAP listener who took the time to drop us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Mike BH says, As a neophyte podcast creator and host of Do You Ever Wonder, I'm astounded by the guests Hala brings to the party. Add to that the value each episode provides, and it's a must listen to channel. Five stars for sure, only because there's no option for 10 stars. Mike, thank you so much for that awesome review. That was so sweet. I appreciate you. I'm cheering you on your podcast journey. I know you're going to crush it. Yeah, fam, I'd love to hear from you, too. I love to read your reviews. Literally every day, I check for new reviews. So if you love this show, let me know why. Tell me what you love about it. Tell me your favorite episodes, your biggest takeaways. Drop a comment on YouTube, Apple, Castbox, wherever If you listen to the show. Your insights help us craft even more better conversations. You can also hang out with me on Instagram at Yapwithhala or LinkedIn.

Just search for my name. It's Haletaha. All right, Yap, gang. This is the end of the show, and this is your host, Haletaha.. A. The Podcast Princess signing off.