Transcript of Finding Mr Fox: 6. What does the Fox say?

So we just arrived in Norwich, and we've got an address for Fox. And we're gonna try and see if we can see where there's any signs of life there.

So far, we've heard Daniel Rodrigo's account of what happened. We've heard from the Brazilian police and from Fox's colleague, Robert Delbos. But we also want to know what Fox has to say. Thanks to our colleague, Guillaume, the social media sleuth, we think Fox might be at a house on this residential street in Norwich, a small city in the east of England.

It's quite a narrow street, but it's not an awful lot of cover.

But unless we see him,

we won't know for sure. Yeah, you're all right. You've got about 3 feet. Keep going.

So now it's just a waiting king. All eyes are on the house. No 1 wants to turn away, even for a moment.

The street is very quiet. I'm sure we'll spot him if he comes out with his dog. Of course, we don't even know if he's definitely here or not. We've been here for a while now. See a cat wandering over the road.

No sign of a fox, though.

After a couple of hours cooped up inside the van, Colin decides to have a closer look.

Sort of wandering up to Fox's house now. The window is open. So if the window is open, maybe he's in.

Okay.

Time marching on. Still no sign of Fox. Now reduced to eating, the children's sweets that 1 of my colleagues has got in her bag.

Then all of a sudden, the

front door opens. There's some

of that.

But it's a woman. We decide if we can't confirm foxes inside, we're not going to knock. Whoever is home could alert him before we get a chance to speak to him ourselves.

It's now dark, about 7 o'clock. Been stuck outside a slip in house for about 8 or 9 hours. We've seen no sign of him at all. It's a little bit frustrating. I was hoping that today we could at least get it confirmed that he is actually coming and going regularly.

And right now, that seems a bit uncertain.

Just before calling it a day, Colin goes for 1 last walk around the street.

So I've just been up to take a quick look around the front and side of Fox's house just to see if there is any signs of life or not. There isn't to be honest, but there is 1 slightly intriguing detail, which is that on the front door there is a brass door knocker in the shape of a fox's head, which suggests that this is indeed the house where Fox lives.

Finally, it feels like we're getting closer to Fox.

This is World of Secrets.

Season 5, Finding Mister Fox, a BBC World Service investigation with me, Yemisi Adegoke.

And me, Colin Freeman.

Episode 6, what does the fox say?

He was very handsome,

charismatic. Meet someone we're calling Sam, a former associate of foxes.

Fun to be around.

An associate from Norwich whose words are spoken by an actor to protect his identity.

He used to quote a lot of Guy Ritchie movies.

You know the ones. The gangster movies with the cool soundtracks, smooth talking roads, with endlessly quotable dialog.

He really liked Snatch, and he used to quote things that Brad Pitt's character used to say, you know, in the Irish accent. And he used to quote lock stock and 2 smoking barrels too. That was the main 1. He was quite interested in that sort of personality. That's the sort of lifestyle, you know, skirting around the edge of the law.

He would always carry a lot of cash. I don't think he had

a lot of cash. I think it's just he carried a lot of cash

to make it look like he had a lot of money. You understand what I'm trying to say there?

The name Fox almost sounds like a character from 1 of these films. Is that a name Sam ever heard him use?

No. Never. Did he choose it? Seems odd. Maybe Fantastic Mister Fox?

Cunning as a fox?

He used to call himself Saul. People used to call him Gorgeous George. Now Gorgeous George definitely sounds like a character from a Guy Ritchie movie,

probably because he was good looking, good with women.

As well as finding Fox, we want to understand who George saw is, and we think Sam can help.

He was always well dressed, always well dressed, always wore a shirt and jeans and brown leather shoes, and he was always well groomed. You know? His facial hair and hairstyling. You know, he looked after his body from a physical point of view. He's very into sports.

He's very interested in fitness and in martial arts. When I heard it sailed to Brazil, I thought, yes, that's him. He was very adventurous.

I asked Sam about Fox's military past. He told Brazilian sailor Daniel that he'd served with British forces in Afghanistan.

From what I understood, he was in the military.

And I tell him about something Daniel had told me, about how he noticed a scar on Fox's stomach, which Fox said was a result of being shot in Afghanistan.

Yeah. That's not true. There's no way. There's no way that's true. Afghanistan, there's no way.

When we spoke to Fox's former colleague, Robert Delbos, he told us a different version of this story.

Ex British army took 3 bullets in the stomach in Africa from a kid with the Kalashnikov.

We asked the British Ministry of Defense. They said they couldn't comment either way.

We have been able to confirm another bit of Fox's career history, though. He used to work as a doorman in Norwich.

I don't think he'd look for trouble. Don't forget, he's not the biggest guy on the door. So I think the gift

Sand describes Fox as being from a good family, well spoken, upper middle class. He says Fox was a keen Yotsman who sailed around the east coast of England in his youth.

His dad was a solicitor. And apparently, at 1 point, Fox started a law course at college, though he never finished it.

He seemed like he was off to some sort of career probably down the line of his father, but he was interested in making, I guess, quick money.

There's another reason we wanted to speak to Sam. He has knowledge of the way the Norwich drug scene used to work.

Another reason he wants to remain anonymous.

He would buy marijuana from big distributors in the area and then cut it up and give it to certain people who would then distribute it on his behalf. I think he was a little bit lawless in that respect and, you know, quite quite full of himself and a sort of sense of being untouchable.

Sam and other sources I've spoken to make similar claims that Fox became a kind of marijuana middleman. They say he'd buy large quantities, split it up, and sell it on to other dealers, and that at first this was all in the UK. Then Fox started buying it in the Netherlands and bringing it over by boat.

He started bringing either marijuana or hashish back.

If you look at a map, the Netherlands are only about a 100 miles from the east coast of England, not too much for a keen sailor like Fox.

I'm looking at the Brazilian police files that we got hold of. There's a reference to Fox having been arrested in 2011 when he was picked up by Dutch police on board a yacht with 60 kilos of cannabis. Police there can't tell us what happened because they no longer have the records, but we don't believe he was charged. When did you first find out about what had happened on the rich harvest?

When I heard that George was wanted by Interpol for attempted smuggling of a lot of cocaine for Brazil, I was, like, gobsmacked.

Sam says he hasn't spoken to Fox about the rich harvest, but says he feels sorry for Daniel and Rodrigo and can imagine how Fox's personality might have won them over.

Maybe he lured them into a false sense of security by using his charm and his charisma and his demeanor, which ultimately ended up, as we know, with these young men in trouble.

We've spoken to a number of people who knew Fox. None of them wanted us to use their voices, though, some of them because of their own links to the drug world.

And it's hard to know what to make of their claims, which is another reason why we need to hear what Fox has to say about all

of this. So I go back to my colleague, I am, a social media sleuth, to see if he has any more ideas. Yeah. We thought this was it, but Colin unfortunately had a really unsuccessful time of trying to stake out Fox. I was wondering if you had any ideas, what else can we look at to try to find him?

Yes. He's part of a of a business networking organization, like, he belongs to 1 of their chapters there in Norwich. He goes to a meeting with them.

Do we know, do they meet up? Do we know when they meet up?

He's got a profile page on the website, of the chapter, and and on the social media accounts of the chapter, they say that they meet every Thursday morning at 7 AM in the morning, at a hotel in the outskirts of of Norwich. So we know the location, and we know when Fox goes there.

That's a really, really good lead. It's an exact time, exact location, much better than just sort of waiting outside his house for hours on end.

Hey, Yemsy. It's Colin here. Can you hear me?

Hey, Colin. Yeah. I can hear you. Can you hear me?

Yeah. I can hear you loud and clear. Yep. It's Thursday, a cool, bright summer morning. Yarrissi is sitting in a car with a clear view of the entrance to a hotel car park in the small city of Norwich.

I'm waiting in a van parked about 20 meters away behind some trees.

For the last few weeks, we've been planning how we're going to finally approach Fox and ask him about the rich harvest. We want to know his side of this story.

A member of our team has been coming down and watching to see if Ahlum's Internet research is correct. Has Fox really been attending a business group at a local hotel every week?

And yes, Fox has been arriving at the same time, always parking in the same spot ahead of his 7 AM meeting.

Are you in the car sort of ready to spot him if he comes, into the hotel?

Yep. I'm right in position for really good view of the car park.

Our plan is to approach him during the short walk he has

to make from his car to the hotel entrance. That's a very narrow window of time. And on top of that, we know he always brings his dog, a Belgian malinois, a fairly large breed known for being very protective of their owners. There's a chance it might try to attack us if it thinks we're being threatened.

And what about Fox himself? We know that Fox likes to keep fit. He used to work as a bouncer, likes martial arts. If he felt provoked, might things become physical?

It feels a bit nerve wracking. There's a lot riding on this next quarter of an hour, really, and spending a lot of time preparing for this.

We've decided only 1 of us should make the approach, and that's going to be Colin. He's all ready with his microphone, clearly marked with the BBC logo, so there's no confusion about who we are. Meanwhile, I'm going to act as a lookout.

Okay. So he's due to come in in that white Land Rover that we spoke about before, is he?

That's the plan. Keep an eye

out. Okay. Alright. Well, look, we're parked up just out of sight. So, what we'll do is we'll wait for your signal if you see him coming in, and then let us know when he actually gets out the car, and we'll, try and, wander over and ask him a few questions then.

Okay.

Okay. Good luck. The pressure

is on. Our plan hinges on Fox turning up at the same time he always does and parking in the same place. As the minutes go by, I'm feeling anxious. What if I don't recognize his car? What if I don't notice him coming in and we miss our chance?

And he's already late.

Yaris, is there any sign of him yet? He's normally here by now. I think it's just coming up to 6:45. No.

Still no sign

of him. Car park is

getting busier. His usual spot's been busier. His usual spot's been taken. Fingers crossed he just burned his breakfast or something.

Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, I think the meeting starts at 7, so he should be here in another couple of minutes if he's turning up.

Alright. I'll keep get pasted.

Okay. Cheers. It's hard to concentrate. I keep running through all the questions I want to ask him, but then getting distracted by all the ways this might go wrong. There's plenty of

comings and goings, though, so let's just hope the fox turns on.

Mike is just driving in. White Land Rover. Just about to reverse into the parking lot.

Alright. Alright. Thanks. This is it. We're on.

Walking towards you to stand by. Tracksuit, white trainers, got black bags with him, but he should be with you within the next 30 seconds to stand by.

Alright. Okay. Right. Cheers. We're gonna get going.

It's time to get out the van.

Colin manages to reach Fox just meters from where he's parked his car. He looks older and a little grayer than in photos with Rodrigo and Daniel, but it's unmistakably him.

Excuse me. For the BBC.

At first, he looks relaxed. He smiles politely at Colin, this random man who appears to be making conversation, until, that is, he hears what we want to talk to him about.

Just wondering if I could ask you a few questions about your yacht, the rich harvest. No.

His whole body seems to tense up.

Can you explain why more than a ton of cocaine was found onboarded back in 2017? Go away.

No? Seriously?

Brazilian police say that you are an international drug trafficker Well, I'm not. So you that you masterminded this operation to put a ton of cocaine on the rich harvest boat. Okay.

At this point, Fox stops making his way towards the hotel entrance and turns back the way he came, towards his car.

Listen. I'm not doing this, so I'm not here to There were 4 sailors, innocent sailors, who went to prison as a result of the drugs that were found on that boat. Guys, this is such a strange Do you accept that it's your fault? This is such a surprise. You you're walking away.

Is that is that what you do if trouble takes place? Have you got any remorse over what happened? Happened? Would you consider going back to Brazil to face justice there? There's there's a case to answer there isn't there?

We've got the wrong individual. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Carry on.

Yeah. Yeah. We're here to listen. Yeah. Yeah.

And we're here to talk on the brakes. Okay. If you want if you want to there's probably you probably got your own version of events here. If you wanna give us your side of the story, you're welcome to. Yeah.

Oh, he's driving off. Didn't want at all.

It's all over in the blink of an eye, but our hearts are racing. So much build up, and suddenly, it's over. We write to Fox outlining all the allegations against him, offering him another chance to respond. We email.

We text. But he never responds.

Whatever his version of events, he won't talk to us, which won't be of much comfort to Brazilian sailor Rodrigo.

I hope that justice will be served. That's the only thing I hope for.

The problem is Fox is in the UK. The cocaine is put on the rich harvest in Brazil. British law enforcement doesn't usually have the jurisdiction to arrest someone on suspicion of drug smuggling crimes committed abroad.

Unless the Brazilian authorities put in a formal extradition request. But both the Brazilian Ministry of Justice and the UK Home Office, which would handle any such request, have told us that the process is confidential, so they can't comment.

And anyway, the extradition process can be long and complicated. And British courts have turned down some requests from Brazil on human rights grounds. Prisons there are notoriously overcrowded and violent with poor health care.

When we contacted the National Crime Agency, they told us that they were unaware of Fox having committed any crimes in the UK and that there was no current UK arrest warrant for him.

Then there's Interpol, who say they can't tell us if Fox is still wanted by them either. So for now, he's still able to live in Norwich, his hometown.

He won't, though, be going to those business breakfasts anymore. The networking group told us that after the allegations against Fox came to light, they spoke to him to get his side of the story. He played his cards close to his chest, they told us, but said that it was all in his past. As the networking group refers members on for business opportunities, they told him he couldn't continue to be a member. It was sad to see him go apparently because he'd made some good friends there.

But to use their words, he took it on the chin.

Life goes back to normal. Right? Or at least that's what I tried to do. There was a feeling of starting over. You know?

Back in Brazil, Daniel and Rodrigo were trying to rebuild their lives.

I really wanted to be a captain, but I couldn't make that dream come true. I wasn't able to. I was disappointed, so I had to look for something else.

Daniel was forced to abandon his plan to become a professional captain.

After leaving prison, he did manage to get a bit of work on boats, taking researchers out on trips to see humpback whales.

But it was only for a few months.

Instead, he became a driver.

I couldn't stay still. I had to do something. And so I did Uber for a while. And then when the pandemic started, everything changed again.

It's a similar story for Rodrigo.

I couldn't continue my dream of becoming a delivery skipper. Boat owners, they don't want someone working for them who has been involved with the police or justice system in any way. Whether you're innocent or not. So I couldn't continue my life project of traveling the world. And so I had to start again to look for something new.

But Rodrigo hasn't lost his love for the sea.

Today, I still work sailing just in a different way. I take sailing trips, give sailing lessons. But today, I work for myself because I'm the only person I can trust.

In Brazil, Rodrigo shows me where he learned to sail. This is his actual voice. Explaining in Portuguese that the boat he first learned to sail on looked a bit like a bathtub. As we talk, I can't help but notice his wallet. It's got a little picture of a boat on it.

He says he takes it everywhere.

So this wallet here, it was made in prison in Cape Verde. The leather has been stitched together by hand. I thought it was really cool, pretty.

Rather than hiding from his past, Rodrigo accepts his ordeal. It's just part of who he is.

Yeah. It's part of my story. Of course, I went through a lot of bad things in Cape Verde, But a lot of those things also made me grow and become a better person. I think I've left all the suffering behind me. And I've learned to value the little things in life.

Today, Daniel is living by the sea on a remote part of the Brazilian coast, where he's built a house on the edge of a sand dune. He's also discovered a new way to experience adventure, to make the most of his his freedom.

Kite surfing.

It's a combination, he says, of his true passions, sailing and surfing.

Only unlike sailing, I don't depend on anyone else to do anything. I can just be at peace by myself.

Like Rodrigo, Daniel also now has trouble trusting other people.

And he's also picked up a habit from his old friend, filming everything. Filming the construction of his new home.

Documenting life with his wife. He got married in 2022. In February 2023, almost 6 years since he saw that job advert, the 1 offering a once in a lifetime opportunity to cross the Atlantic on the rich harvest, Daniel was finally cleared, Rodrigo and their Brazilian crewmate Steve too.

Their case was transferred from Cape Verde to Brazil. After considering the evidence gathered by inspector Andre Goncalves and the rest of the Brazilian police, the court ordered that all charges be dropped.

That was just an explosion of happiness, of pure joy. It was like a weight had been lifted after all those years.

Today, Daniel has a few more gray hairs than when Osturi began in 2017, but he's still smiling. After everything Daniel's been through, what's his secret?

My secret for smiling? You only have 1 life. Right? 1 of the things I learned from all this is that we only have a little time here. Just 1 life.

So I don't want to waste it complaining or crying.

Daniel pauses to wipe a tear from his eye.

You know, after Cape Verde, I can't cry anymore when I'm sad. I'd blocked out a lot of feelings. I used to be a much more emotional person, you know? But thank God, it couldn't wipe away my smile.

This has been episode 6 of 6 of Finding Mister Fox, season 5 of World of Secrets from the BBC World Service.

We hope you're enjoying World of Secrets. Subscribe or follow now till you get all episodes on our next investigation automatically. And if you haven't already, check out our other seasons.

You can also watch a documentary film about our investigation. You'll find Africa Eye Finding Mister Fox on YouTube and on BBC iPlayer. I'm Colin Freeman.

And I'm Yemi Siedegegegege. The producer is Charlotte McDonald. The executive producer is Joe Kent.

The series editor is Matt Willis. Sound design and mix by Tom Brignall.

Additional production is by Iam Le Roy, Christine Kist, Nick Norman Butler, Kiara Francavilla, Matt Preci, Julian Sturdy, and Julio Rodriguez.

Sam, voiced by Jim Frank.

Rodrigo by Edison Alkaiga. Daniel by Antonio Fernandez. The BBC World Service senior podcast producer is Cat Collins.

The podcast commissioning editor is Jon Marnell.