Transcript of Julia Gets Wise with Jane Goodall

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Lemonade.

In California, when you live near the mountains like I do, every once in a while, you get to see a bear or even a mountain lion, and it's a reminder of the wild world this place used to be and that we've tamed it thoroughly and perhaps tragically, but not completely. So when the opportunity came for our family to go to the Galapagos Islands many years ago, the miraculous volcanic archipelago off the coast of Ecuador, we knew exactly how lucky we were. And, boy, off we went. And I got to tell you guys, it was way, way, way beyond my expectations. I mean, I don't, honestly, I don't think I'll ever experience anything like that again. I mean, you're 550 miles off of South America, right on the equator, the very place that gave birth to Darwin's origin of the species. And for an animal person, and I'm certainly an animal person, it's just magical. You know, I really mean that literally. It feels like it's a magical place because you see, you step onto these rocky little islands and you are instantly and absolutely surrounded by the most incredible variety of spectacular animals. Blue footed boobies and galapagos penguins and giant tortoises and waved albatross, who are amazingly beautiful, and Sally lightfoot crabs, and of course, the famous marine iguanas, who are sort of the stars of the show down there.

And the thing is, is that none of these animals give a shit about the humans. It's awesome because you are in their world. You aren't king of the hill. You're in the minority in numbers and in status. And then you put on a snorkel or a scuba tank and it's bottlenose dolphins and seals and hammerhead sharks and sea turtles and more penguins and iguanas. My son Charlie and I were just talking about this the other day, his memory of the experience. And we were both remembering that when we were swimming, how all of these seals, particularly the little young ones, the baby seals, and they're so cute, by the way. They would follow us and they'd start to play with us right there. They'd be somersaulting around us and they'd blow bubbles like little kids. They'd blow bubbles at us. It was like they were laughing at us. It was completely playful. Or a marine iguana would climb up onto a rock and puff itself out. And I swear to God, it really does look like some guy in a godzilla suit. And of course, I realized that I just anthropomorphized all these animals, but that's what we do, I think, when we try to understand them.

Anyway, when I got back home to Los Angeles, I had to promote a tv show, so I went on the Tonight show, and the main guest on the show was Nancy Pelosi, which was fantastic because, of course, I'm Nancy Pelosi's greatest fan and admirer. So I was telling a story about the galapagos trip on the show, and I was talking about the giant galapagos tortoises, the biggest of all tortoises on earth. We went to go see them with this naturalist guide, who is wonderful, and she was telling us all about how the tortoises live for 100 plus years. Maybe we should have one of the tortoises on this show. I mean, they really do get that old. Anyway, while she's talking, this giant tortoise behind her starts to rub himself up against a rock, and he gets an erection. I am not kidding you. This actually happened, and it was a giant erection, okay? Because it's a giant tortoise. And I realize, oh, my God. Holy crap, this thing is masturbating. This tortoise is masturbating. And right when I get to this part of the story on the Tonight Show, I suddenly think, oh, my God, I'm telling a tortoise jerking off joke on national television, and the climax of this story is the actual tortoises climax.

And then I also realize I'm sitting next to the first female speaker of the House in the history of the United States Congress, and she's so classy and so catholic, and I am so not classy telling this story. What the fuck am I doing? And it kind of threw me off my game. But of course, Nancy Pelosi was very polite, and she laughed at all the right places, even the. Anyway, I digress. My point is that the world was once a much wilder place. Humans weren't at the top of the food chain. We shared the world with our fellow creatures. Not because we were uncorrupted innocents. No, no, we had to share. But at some point, we stopped sharing. And what a shame, because even in the controlled safeway that I got to experience the absolute wonder of seeing those creatures cavorting in the galapagos, there is just so much to learn and so much joy to be derived from the living things we share this planet with. So as we embark on season three, I've been reflecting on how quickly the world is moving. Today. Work, social media, and politics often separate us from each other, from our own feelings, from our relationships to the natural world, animals, and community.

But the amazing women on this show are out here fighting to stay connected and reminding, reminding us of the importance of finding our place alongside each other and nature and everything that surrounds us. So today, as we begin this new season, how lucky then, are we to talk with Jane Goodall? I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is wiser than me. The podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. With nothing but a notebook, binoculars, a pair of incredibly chic high top converse sneakers, and an intense fascination with wildlife, Jane Goodall, at age 26, ventured into the jungles of Gampe and introduced us to our nearest living relatives, the chimpanzees. She immersed herself in their world, observing them, living alongside them, learning their social dynamics and behaviors firsthand. Slowly, through trial and error, patience and pure determination, she built a thorough study of the species. Jane Goodall was first to observe that chimps aren't just passive vegetarians, they are hunters, meat eaters and tool users. This shattered the long held belief that only humans made and used tools, and led to the redefinition of the term man. Leave it to a woman to redefine man.

See, the thing about Jane Goodall's work is that it embodies how women often approach challenges. Since 1960, she has merged good science with empathy and revolutionized how we see primates and how we talk about them, not just as categorized species, but as fellow beings with emotional complexity. For more than six decades, Jane has shown us the critical need to protect chimpanzees from extinction, while expanding the idea of conservation to include local communities and the environment. In 1977, she founded the Jane Goodall Institute for Wildlife Research, Education and Conservation. Today, she's a global, global advocate for chimps and wildlife. And our planet crisscrossing the world to speak about the urgent threats facing the planet, calling on all of us to act. It is not an exaggeration to say Jane Goodall has inspired millions. She is the winner of the UNESCO Peace Prize and has been named messenger of peace by the United nations and dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire. Shes a mother to her son Hugo, who is known as Grube, and of course, Mister H. A stuffed monkey who sits beside her right now. She's an author, a trailblazer, and let's face it, she's Tarzan's.

True Jane. Wiser than me and probably so much wiser than all of us. Jane Goodall. Welcome, Jane Goodall to wiser than me.

Well, thank you. And I'm very happy to be talking with you.

I'm very happy to be talking with you too. What a treat. So, first of all, Jane, are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

Yeah, I'm 90.

You're 90? And how old do you feel?

I don't feel any age, to be honest. I don't think about age. I just be.

You just be?

Yeah.

What do you think is the best part of being 90?

The best part of being 90, I suppose, is because I've lived all these years, I've acquired knowledge. Yeah, I've seen change. You know, when I was young, the television wasn't invented, let alone all these zooms and things like that.

Right? Incredible, isn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, how you just described the best part about being your age is really why we do this podcast. It's exactly why. Because we're talking to women who have, you know, been alive for decades and have so much to share and have a perspective that's unique to the experience of living a long life, which we're so grateful for. So you just turned 90, I believe, right? Didn't you just.

It was in. No, April. In April, I saw. I'm 90 and a half.

You're 90 and a half. How'd you celebrate the big day, Jane?

Well, everybody wants to celebrate with galas, or galas, whichever you say.

Yes.

I happen to hate them.

Yes.

But there was one event, and only one that I really, really loved. What was it so far?

Tell me.

In California, on a beach, I was greeted by 90 dogs. Big dogs, little dogs, pure breeds, muds, you name it. 90 dogs. And it's an off leash dog beach. So we played in the water and got wet, and it rained, and it was just glorious.

Oh, God, Jane, that is so fabulous. You're a dog lover, obviously.

But my favorite animal is a dog.

Oh, God. Yes.

People think it's gyms.

No, but it's dogs.

Yep.

Yeah. Do you have a dog now?

Actually, I can't. Can I? Traveling 300 days a year.

No, you can't.

Sad.

Yeah, it's very sad. I want to share with you something, since you're a dog lover, because I found this so remarkable about animal behavior. So we have this dog who's kind of high strung, but he's a really good guy. And we used to have a small, little, like, dinghy boat out in front of our house, and we would walk by it every day. And then it got sold. And then the next day we went walking by, and my dog George stopped in his tracks as if he'd seen a lion and wouldn't move because, of course, the dinghy had disappeared. And I thought, my God, the fact that this is meaningful to him, that his world has just been adjusted. And he clocked it, and I had to coax him to walk by that space where the dinghy was. And I thought, wow, that really. I don't know exactly what it means, except to me, it means a kind of intelligence. Do you agree with that?

Oh, dogs are amazingly intelligent.

They really are.

When I went to study the chimps, I'd never been to college because we couldn't afford it.

Yes.

And so I finally managed to save up money. I went to stay with a friend who'd invited me and met doctor Louis Leakey. And he's the one who suggested, asked actually if I would be prepared to go and study chimpanzees. I would have studied any animal, but he wanted someone to study chimps. So that's how I got there. And after I'd lived with them for about two years and learned a great deal about them, he told me, now I have to go to college. Now I have to get a degree. And I got to Cambridge University to do a PhD with no undergraduate degree.

Yes.

And I was told I'd done everything wrong. I couldn't talk about your personality, mind or emotion. Those were unique to us. I'd been taught that they were talking rubbish. And who was my teacher? My dog, Rusty.

And explain to me how Rusty was your teacher. Explain exactly.

Well, you've got a dog, you know, your dog has a personality.

Yes.

And a mind and emotions.

Yes.

Well, all dogs teach you that.

Yeah. They pick up on energy in a room. They know if someone's upset. They're caregivers, actually, in fact.

Yeah.

And speaking of caregivers, I want to talk about your wonderful mother, who is certainly a hero in the Jane Goodall story. Was she an animal lover like you?

Well, she wasn't a crazy. I mean, she, the whole family, you know, love animals, but not, not out of the ordinary loving animals, but.

But you're out of the ordinary loving animals, would you say?

Probably. I began watching animals when I was one and a half, according to mom. Yeah, she's. I took a whole lot of worms to bed with me, and instead of being angry because of all the earth, she said, I don't remember this. I was one and a half.

Yeah.

And she said, jane, you are watching them so intently. I think you must have been wondering how do they walk without legs? So very gently, she said, we'd better put them back in the garden. They might die in your bed. So we took them back into the garden and that's how she was. She supported my love.

Oh, God, you're so lucky. That is such. That's the dearest story. Everything about it I love. She handled it so kindly and so respectfully and nurtured in you what was the best in you, obviously. I love the story of you being in the hen house waiting for the hens to lay eggs and everyone was looking for you for hours and hours. And did you actually get to see them lay an egg?

I can see the hen now. She came in. I'd waited 4 hours. And she came in because I couldn't think where the hole was, where the egg came out. Yeah, of course, you know, I was four years old.

Yes.

And I can still close my eyes and see the egg coming out slightly soft and plopping down on the straw.

That's cool. That's so magical. Are you like your mother? I mean, she was obviously an adventurer because she came with you to Gombe and was your chaperone. She obviously supported you to sort of push back against the norms, sort of push against the edge of the cultural envelope. So you had that in common, didn't you? I mean, I guess you were sort of working in tandem like that.

Well, you know, the reason she came to Gombe is that at that time, Tanzania was Tanganyika, part of the crumbling british empire.

Yes.

And the british authorities wouldn't allow me to go on my own. They said, no, she's got to have someone with her. So it was mom who volunteered to come. She came for the first four months and after that the authorities, I think they thought I was a bit crazy, but they guessed I was okay.

Right. First of all, I was hoping to sort of talk a little bit about those four months because what you were doing was hard. You were living in a tent and you both got malaria at the same time. Can you describe what that was like, Jane?

Yeah, well, first of all, the first four months were very frustrating because the chips would take one look and disappear, you know. So I was only getting information through my binoculars quite far away. And mom had this, you know, she boosted my morale. She kept saying, well, Jane, you're learning more than you think. You're learning what they're feeding on. You learn how they make nests at night up in the trees. You're learning. Sometimes they travel alone, sometimes in little groups. And so it was really sad. She left just two weeks before that breakthrough observation.

Oh, you're kidding.

David Greybeard using and making tools. Yeah.

Oh, I didn't know that part of it. Wow. Okay.

So when we both got malaria, she was much sicker than me and she nearly died. She had a temperature of 105 for three days. And all we could do, we both lay there aside. We shared a tent. We only had money for one ex army tent and all we could do was pass the thermometer back and forth to take our temperatures.

Oh, you poor souls. But you survived it.

We survived.

Speaking of the moment, the pinnacle moment, when you saw, well, you saw two things. You saw them eating meat and then you saw them using tools.

It was the same chimpanzee, David Greybeard, I called him at this beautiful white gin. He was the first one who began to let me get a little bit close.

Yeah.

And it was him who showed me tool use, and it was him, the first chimp I saw eating meat.

So when that happened, Jane, were you in the moment struck at the enormity of what you were witnessing? Did you realize as it was happening that this is huge, or were you just taking it in? I'm curious.

I knew it was huge in the scientific world.

Yeah.

I wasn't surprised because a book had been written by an austrian, Wolfgang Kohler, and he was studying a group of chimpanzees in captivity in a big space, and he wrote a book called the Mentality of apes. And it was very, very clear how amazingly intelligent chimpanzees were, how they very quickly learned to use tools to reach a fruit that was high up, for example. But the science brushed it aside and said, oh, but these were captives, so obviously they're not really intelligent, they're just aping humans. I mean, which is ridiculous, you know?

Ridiculous. Yeah.

I mean, humans don't pile boxes one on top of the other to reach a fruit suspended from the ceiling.

Right, right. Or even when I was reading about that moment and you talked about how David Greybeard had taken not just one blade of grass or stick, but multiple, and put them next to him, so that as it. I guess the stick or the blade sort of degraded or fell apart, he would have more tools next to him. He sort of created a tool shed next to his body. Right?

Yes, that's right.

Incredible. And then when you were writing this and sending messages back, who heard about it first?

Oh, I sent it to my mentor, Louis Leakey. The one who got me the money for six months.

Yes.

And he wrote a famous telegram. I wish I'd kept a copy. But, you know, back then, you didn't think of things like that. And he said, well, as we were defined as man the tool maker, now we must redefine man, redefine tool. Or I accept chimps as humans.

God Almighty. That is just. You must have been out of your mind. I know it happened a long time ago, but to hear it from you, the story of watching it as it happened, it must have been a truly awesome experience.

Yes, it was.

Yes.

It also led to the National Geographic showing interest and agreeing that they would provide money when my six months ran out.

Right. And then the ripple effect of this, of course, is that then there became an awareness of the area, the animals, the conservation. I mean, so much was born from that moment that we're also thankful for. I know you've said that you would spend countless hours sitting in one spot, which you called the peak. I wonder if you learned anything about yourself spending so much time alone. Was there something that grew inside you as a result of that?

I don't think so. Because, you know, I'd always loved. I used to spend hours and hours out in the garden watching birds and insects and anything. Squirrels.

Yes.

And then walking out. We live by the sea. And walking there, of course, with my dog, Rusty. So. Can't be alone when you're with a dog. But sitting out on the peak, you know, I really just had the feeling I'm where I'm meant to be. This is where I'm meant to be. And, you know, I still look back over my life and think, well, I've got a mission. I was put here for a reason, and things have followed, and here I am now.

Yeah, it's kind of. It's just mind blowing, really. We'll be right back with Jane Goodall after this quick break. Okay, guys, you know what's a huge and totally overlooked problem for the climate? Food waste. It's actually heating up the planet faster than the entire global airline industry. Let that sink in for a second. Yeah. So, a while back, I found out about this invention that's supposed to help fix all this. It's called the mill food recycler. And I got to tell you, I am really a believer because it's got that special quality any new idea needs to catch on. It's insanely easy. It's roughly the size and shape of your garbage bin, but it also kind of looks like an iPhone, which makes sense because it was invented by the main engineer behind the iPhone and the iPad and the nest thermostat. So, like every life changing invention of the last 20 years, you just drop your food scraps in and your old, neglected leftovers in the mill, and, well, that's it. It works overnight while you sleep. You don't even need to push a button. You don't have to think about garbage or smell compost or schlep a bag out to the curb every day because you don't have to empty mill for weeks on end, sometimes over a month in our house.

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Instead of letting it go unused, why not list it on Airbnb and welcome guests who are eager to experience your neighborhood? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com. host you've said that without patience, you never would have succeeded at this work. That's obvious. I'm assuming you've always been patient, or has your patience evolved as you've gotten older, as you've had your child and grandchildren? Or has it been sort of a constant for you that you've used in your life to great effect?

Well, I mean, think. When I was four years old, I spent 4 hours waiting for a hen to lay an egg. Yes, that's patience. So it's always been there.

It's always been there, yeah. Right. God. As I was reading about your adventures and watching you, and I really do believe that you're one of the bravest people I've ever met. Can you talk about the scariest thing that ever happened to you when you were there and how you managed it?

There were two scary things.

Okay?

For some reason, I was scared of leopards.

For some reason. Jane, please. I think there's a strong reason to be scared of the leopard. No, Jane. Absolutely.

But I always had the conviction that if you don't harm an animal, the animal won't harm you unless the animal previously has been harmed by someone, therefore hates people. Anyway, I was sitting on this peak, and suddenly there was a little dip, and the grass was tall, and I heard a mewy sound. And I could see the tail, wide tipped tail of a leopard coming directly towards me along a little trail. And I was scared, so I made a lot of noise. And then I went rather rapidly in the other direction. You know, I never knew whether to go back or not. I think it was four or 5 hours later, I thought, well, I have to go back. And on the very spot where I always sat, the leopard had deposited his poo. Oh, this is my place.

He was letting you know.

Wow. But anyway, after that was okay. But the other scary thing, just when the chimpanzees were beginning to get used to me, it was raining a lot, and I was walking along the trail and I heard chimps make this screaming, threat noise.

Yes.

So I think because it was raining, the chimps were cold and miserable, and there were about six adult males, and they all started swaying in the trees above and screaming at me. And so I sat down. I pretended that I was very busy digging a little hole, eating leaves on the ground, just hoping they would go away. One of them actually charged up behind me and hit me on the head. But then, fortunately, they went away. That was scary, what was happening there?

How do you understand what that was?

They were treating me as if I was a predator. That's what they do to a leopard.

Wow. And yet you carried on with your work after that.

Yeah.

So it didn't dissuade you, obviously.

No.

Huh. By the way, I'm in California, and just a couple days ago we had a bobcat on our property, if you can believe it.

Oh, how lovely.

The most beautiful animal. We also have rabbits everywhere. And he was stalking the rabbits. I don't think he got one, unfortunately, because we have a lot. But it's really incredible when you see the natural world come into your life here in a. You know, I'm in a city.

Yep. At home we just have foxes. And one fox got very, very tame when I was a child. The fox made a den under our little summer house, and the cubs would play in the moonlight. It was so lovely.

Well, they are incredible. They're very much like dogs, you know, fox. And in fact, we have fox here, too. And get a load of this. We had some people staying with us and they had left their shoes outside. And then she said, oh, did you take my shoes? And I said, I didn't.

Why do foxes have this thing about shoes?

I don't know, but they take them. They do. And it happened to multiple people. And then one day I was cleaning in some brush down the hill, and didn't I find a bunch of chewed up shoes that belonged to my friends from the year prior?

It's really strange, isn't it? Yes. In England, this man in London, he went into a. Into a new house and he was sort of gardening and he found an old fox den.

Yeah.

And inside, I think there were 15 shoes, individual shoes. So he had a railing outside with spikes. So he put these shoes along the railing and said, if you've lost a shoe, maybe it's here.

That's hilarious. Maybe it's the smell. You know, dogs like shoes, too, to chew on shoes. Maybe it has something to do with the smell.

Smelly feet.

Yeah, smelly feet. So going back to chimpanzees for just a moment, you've said you've learned a lot about human behavior from chimps, and you specifically talk about a chimp named Goliath. You described him as an alpha male and almost like a psychopath.

Goliath. He was actually a very brave, courageous chimp.

Oh, really?

Yes. So he got to the top because he wasn't afraid of. Of being attacked by a high ranking male. He wasn't particularly big, but he was brave. And he was David Greybeards best friend. And he would sometimes go to David like all the other chimps, because David was gentle and calm and David would reassure him. If Goliath had been attacked, he would embrace him.

Wow.

Then others, like Humphrey was big, aggressive, he got to the top by attacking, and he didn't last long.

You mean as the alpha?

Is that what you mean, as the alpha?

Oh, how fascinating.

So the, you know, and then Figun got to the top because he only charged at a higher ranking male when his older brother was there, and they charged together. So when you use your intelligence to get to the top, you last longer. So figen lasted for ten years as alpha.

Isn't that amazing?

Yeah.

In addition to studying the hierarchy of chimpanzees, you said that studying them helped you understand motherhood, and becoming a mother helps you understand the chimps. So can you talk about that and tell me how you applied that to your own mothering of your son?

Well, I realized, of course, now we have proof of it after, you know, the studies in its 64th year now. So we've got all the back data and it's very clear that the young chimps who have supportive mothers, like my mother, that even a low ranking female will run in to defend her child if the child is hit by a playmate whose mother is higher ranking, nevertheless, the lower ranking mother will run in even though she knows you're going to be beaten up. And those chimps, the males tend to rise higher in the dominance hierarchy, the male dominance hierarchy, and the young females grow up to be better mothers. And it's the same, you know, the first few years of life. For a child to be supported by a tiny group of people that they can depend on, I think makes all the difference in the world.

Yes, it certainly does. You know, there's something about your son HUGO I'm so curious about. Why did you call him grub?

Oh, well, there was a little chimp called goblin, and goblin, I don't know if he was playing with other youngsters at the end, they would just be normal, but he would be covered in bits of grass and stuff. And it was when we were feeding the chimps bananas. And I remember once that he had this huge banana and he'd eaten too much already, so he took a big mouthful, chewed it, spat it into his hand and smashed it all over his face. And it was just so funny. My son, when I was weaning him, he didn't want baby food, and so he always, his whole face was mucky, so it was silly. They became goblin, grub and grublin Gob. So Grub's real name is Grublinde?

Okay, that's just so adorable. It sounds like Harry Potter characters or something. But what about those early years raising your son, because I know that you lived not only there, but you were in the Serengeti with your husband and stuff. And so what were those early years like in the wild with him? I mean, I'm thinking diapers, for example. I'm assuming they were cloth diapers. You were washing them somewhere. I mean, I don't know. What was the practical life like with a baby out there in the wild?

Well, as we were totally in the wild.

Yeah.

And as it was never really very cold, mostly he was naked.

Yes.

And it was very interesting because. Because he was naked, and he mostly didn't wear diapers, or we would call them nappies in England.

Yeah.

And when, you know, when he was in one and he wetted, he hated that feeling. Of course, he was potty trained at one.

Yes. Because he was naked all the time.

Yes.

Okay, so I have to tell you something. So I have two boys, and both of them have summer birthdays, so it was possible for them to go naked a lot during the summer. And that's how I potty trained them, was just get them naked, and they sort of become aware of their body and how it feels and so on.

And they don't like the wet feeling of a wet diaper?

No, they definitely don't. So we were in France on a holiday, and we were staying at a swanky old house that had a lovely salon with tapestries and so on. And my son Charlie, I can't find him, and I go and I find him in the salon, squatting on top of a medieval tapestry, taking a poop.

That wasn't very good, was it?

No, it wasn't very good, Jane. But I did tell him, oh, good potty. Good poop. That's a great poop. And we cleaned it up, and it was all okay, but it reminded me of that. So when Grub reached school age, you sent him to live in England with your mother. And that I just. I can only imagine that that must have been a very hard decision to make. How did you come to that decision?

And, well, when we were at Gombe, when he was a little bit older, I would spend the morning just going up to chimp camp and looking, talking to the students, but every afternoon was his. And I thought I could home school him, but that was not possible. He wouldn't learn from me. So we got a student who wanted to come to Gombe, and so I said okay in return, but you try and teach my son to read and write. Didn't work. So he was eight years old when I took him to England, and, you know, we're an extended family with mom and her sister. My grandmother was alive, and he lived in this. He really was still in an extended family. And then every summer, he would come out to Africa, and in the Christmas and spring, they would go to England. So we weren't separated that much.

I mean, it sounds like you got him in an ideal situation, ultimately, and that it was the right one. Was it hard to do?

Oh, it was horrible.

Yeah.

Awful.

Yeah.

I mean, up until he was three years old, I didn't even leave him for one night. We were totally always together.

Yeah.

And then when he was eight, it felt like, you know, I was betraying him. Oh, yes. He was happy, but I wasn't.

Does he remember that as being a difficult time, or does he look back on that as a happy thing?

He doesn't seem to really remember how he felt. I mean, he was going to a little day school. So living with his extended family. A loving grandmother.

Yes.

A loving great grandmother. A loving great aunt. So, yeah, you know.

Yes. One thing I was struck with, Jane, in reading about you and your work and your life, is how you have been able to facilitate change in very challenging places with people who are challenging people. You did it multiple times. You did it with conocophillips, the oil and gas company. You developed that relationship, and they helped you build the chimpanzee rehabilitation center, and then you convinced NIH to stop animal testing on chimps. I'm just curious about this, Jane, because in today's world, where it seems as if compromise conversation between people of opposing views is hard to come by, I wonder if you have advice about or if you can share your experience as to how you did that successfully.

Well, when I meet somebody who's doing something that I feel is wrong and shouldn't be.

Yeah.

You know, the first time I went into chimpanzee lab, our closest relatives who can live for 60 years in a five foot by five foot cage with bars all around. I mean, it was so shocking. And I was. I was almost in tears when I came out and all the head people of NIH were sitting around a table, and I was sat there, and I realized they were all waiting for me to talk. So what came to me, some people would have started immediately saying, you know, how can you keep our closest relative? Don't you understand how cruelly. And blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, I imagine you're all caring, compassionate people, so probably you all feel the same as I do about what's going on in there. And then I showed them videos of how the chimps actually live in the wild. And I could see, in a way, I could see them thinking in a way they'd never thought before. And it took a very, very long time, and many other organizations joined in. But right now, there's no medical research going on on chimps. And no, we have to do the same with monkeys because they, too, are sentient beings and dogs.

What you're really talking about is finding common ground.

Something like that.

Yeah.

Also, I think the key is when you meet people like that, it's precious little use arguing with them because they're not going to listen. You've got to reach the heart. And how do you reach the heart? With stories. So, luckily, after 90 years, I got many, many stories. So I try and find out a little bit about the person I'm going to meet and try and think of right at the beginning of something, a little story that might reach his heart at the start, make a common ground, and then really important to listen to that person very carefully and see, well, maybe there's something I never thought of as to why they do what they do or think how they think. Anyway, it's worked for me.

And you say, listen to them really carefully and maybe there's something you hadn't thought of. Can you recall an example of exactly that?

I mean, when you talk to an oil and gas company that's really trying to do things right, like Conoco. Before it was ConocoPhillips. And I thought, here am I going out to Africa on an airplane. It's using fuel. I'll get there. I'll get in a car. I'll drive to wherever I'm staying. I'm using what they're searching for. So how can I be so hypocritical? And of course, now we're into trying to find alternatives. But back then, nobody was right. So I thought, well, as long as I don't compromise my values, let me talk to them, listen to them, understand why they're doing what they do. And, you know, people do it to make money, to survive all sorts of things.

Yeah. So you're finding connection.

Yeah, connection and reaching the heart. I think that if we use head and heart together, yeah. We can achieve our true human potential. Right.

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Oh, it was a huge asset, especially in Africa. You know, Africa, Tanzania had been a british protectorate. Big white men coming in and dictating to the Africans how they should live their lives and having all the top jobs and so a resentment after independence. But being a woman, a frail young girl, they wanted to help me. They weren't threatened by me. And I found it immensely helpful. And, I mean, you know, when I, when I first began working with the geographic, and it was a very, very different era, so there were scientists who were jealous and the rumor was going around, well, she's only got that money. She's only on the geographic cover because she's got nice legs. So now you'd sue that person, right?

Yes, of course.

But back then, all I wanted to do was study the chimps. And if my legs were helping me get money to study them, I said, thank you, legs.

Yes, of course. Yes.

And they were nice legs. Let's face it.

I'm sure they're still nice.

No, they're not. They're old legs.

Oh, no, but they're.

They are. I'm 90. Come on.

Yeah, I know, but they're legs that have brought you far, so I don't want to trash them.

No, they. They still carry me around very happily.

Right, exactly. Well, Jane, moving on, I would love to talk about your marriages. Can you tell the story of how you met your first husband, Hugo?

How I met Hugo? The National Geographic wanted to document what I was discovering about chimpanzees for their magazine. They wanted photos and ultimately film. So they picked, well, Lewis Leakey. Leakey picked Hugo van Laueck, who was working in Kenya at the time, where Louis Leakey lived, and he suggested to the geographic that Hugo would be the perfect person for them to send out. And so he came and I resented his coming. But then I soon found that he loved animals as much as I did. He was patient, like me, and it was just perfect somehow.

And you had obviously a common love of nature, and you read somewhere that you both thought that you could change each other, and you said you think that that is something that the young people think. That's a thought of the young. Once you learn that you can't change people, all you can do is, of course, accept them as they are. How did you learn to accept people as they are? Because it's obviously not an easy thing to do sometimes.

Well, I'm not sure that I always can accept people the way they are. There are certain people that I could never accept the way they are. Certain politicians, for example.

Yes. I can't imagine who you might be referring to.

I'm an ngo where apolitical.

Yes, I understand. We'll just say that. Who shall not be named?

Well, you know, chimpanzees live in a male dominated society, and sometimes when the males are competing, they stand upright, they swagger, they may shake their fists, they kind of scowl. And that does remind me of some male politicians.

It does, actually. It really does. The physical part of it. It certainly does. So, Jane, going back to your early life here for a moment, a few years after Grubb was born, Hugo's work was drawing him back to the Serengeti. And you were being called back to Gambe and you ultimately decided your marriage wasn't going to work. And my mom and dad divorced when I was quite little. And I think she had a lot of. Or I know, actually, she had a lot of angst about that. I believe you said you consider the divorce, one of your biggest failures, and you have guilt about it. Do you still feel that way or have you kind of come to terms with it?

No, I've thought about it so much, and I've thought of the reasons why it was the best thing to do, not reasons I'm prepared to talk about. But yes, of course there were certain behaviors and certain attitudes that were of alien to me, and I knew that I'd made the wrong choice. Except it's strange because I married Hugo. We got photographs and film which helped the world to understand chimps. So when I married him, I got a son called grub. And because I got a son called grub, I've got three incredible grandchildren.

Yes.

And so you see, you look back and you say, well, that was the right decision after all.

So you've come to terms with it, which is phenomenal. And it doesn't sound like you have any guilt about it anymore. You said you've thought about it a lot, and I'm delighted to hear that because, yes, you're absolutely right. There's so much to celebrate. Out of that relationship was born. So many gifts came out of that relationship.

Lucky me. Indeed.

Yes, yes. And I know that your second husband, Derek, tragically passed away just five years after you were married. Grief and loss is something that comes up a lot on this podcast because we're talking to women who have endured loss and walked through grief, given their age. Have your observations of grief in the animal world help you understand your own grief? Because I think the story of a baby chimp losing his mom is just mind blowing. Maybe you can tell it.

Yes, well, he was a mummy's boy. His little baby sister died and she was old, flow, flow, and he was eight years old by this time. And she took him back, let him ride on her back until he was too heavy and her legs would collapse. And he died about, I can't remember now, a short time after his mother, he stopped eating, and it was definitely dying of grief. And so I think it didn't help me understand my own grief, but it helped me realize that animals feel the same kind of grief as we do. And I'm sure you've experienced deep, deep grief at the loss of a dog that you love.

Oh, yeah.

And it can be just as strong a grief as if you lose probably not a child. I can't imagine losing a child. But, you know, grief is grief. Grief is grief, and it can knock.

You out and you have to sort of sit with it, I think. I mean, that's my experience. Anyway, I lost my father, and I've lost friends and my sister. And when it first comes upon you, it's. It's gutting, but it is.

I felt it when my grandmother died, my mother's mother. But especially when I lost my mother, it was just. And I still feel it.

Do you?

Yeah. Not the same. I mean, obviously it's different, but I still miss her. Yeah, I bet my sister does, too. We hear her voice sometimes.

Do you talk about her together?

Yes, we do sometimes.

Yeah. I bet that's a huge comfort.

Yeah.

She's sort of alive in both of you, then, I think.

Yes. But, you know, three years ago now, I was asked a question I'd never been asked before.

Tell.

It was a woman in a very big audience of about 10,000 people.

Oh.

And there was a q and A, and she said, what will your next adventure be? I'd never been asked that before, so I thought. And I said, well, if it was ten years ago, and I was, you know, much physically fitter than I could ever be again, I would have said, I want to go to Papua New guinea, where there are mountains and undiscovered species, and I'd love. But I couldn't do that now. So I said, well, I think my next great adventure will be dying. There was a hush and then a few nervous giggles, and I said, well, when you die, there's either nothing, in which case, okay, nothing, or there's something. And I happen to think there is something because of experiences I've had. And if that's true, what greater adventure can there be than discovering what that something is? And people have come up to me and said, I used to be afraid of dying, but now I'm not afraid anymore.

It's a remarkable thing to frame dying as an adventure. And, I mean, really, it's remarkable. It's a wonderful lens. And have you prepared for that next adventure in any way?

No, I just. I don't think about it very often, but, you know, I just live each day. I think I live in the present.

Yeah, you sure do. Jane Goodall. You sure do. Jane Fonda was on this podcast, and she does. Has done something called a life review. She talks about going back in her life, reviewing her life to understand it fully, so she can understand where she is now. Has that been the same for you?

No, I don't think so. I mean, I've always lived in the.

Present, but I get the sense that you have always understood where you were.

That's the sense I have at a certain point. It hit me. And, you know, this may sound strange, but I truly believe I was put on this planet with a mission. And the mission right now is to give people hope. Because if we lose hope, we become apathetic and we don't do anything. And if we don't take action together around the world, then the future is going to be more than grim for our children and great grandchildren.

Well, that makes me cry, because you give me hope, and I'm a hopeful person, believe it or not. But you've even inspired me further, and I thank you for that. I really do. I think you're such a magnificent person.

Well, thank you. And, you know, so many people have said thank you for giving me hope and then taking action, doing something about it.

And I am totally am taking as much action as I possibly can, believe you. Me.

Yeah, you are.

So, Jane, I ask little silly questions just to wrap up our conversation. Is there something you wish you'd gone back and said yes to in your life?

Something I wish I'd said yes to? No. I think I said yes at the right time.

That's what I thought you'd say. I think you've always said yes to just the right things. That's the sense. Well, Jane Goodall, thank you for being with us today. This has been a true delight and a profound honor for everybody who works on wiser than me, because you are, in fact, much wiser than all of us. Thank you.

It's been wonderful talking with you and sharing some things, and it was fun, too.

It was fun.

Yeah.

Enjoyed it very, very much. So I give you my love. Thank you so, so much.

And love back to you.

Thank you, dear Jane.

Okay, bye bye.

Well, it's only episode one, and I'm already in tears. Oh, my God. I I know. My mom is so excited to hear about this conversation, so let's get her on the zoom right away. Hi, mama.

Oh, hi, love.

Don't you look nice.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

I have a new t shirt on, green.

It's so great. You match your. Your bookshelves behind you.

I think I'm camouflaged.

You've been styled by a costume and set designer by a librarian. You look very good. I love it.

Thanks, dear. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so happy to hear that. And you two look beautiful.

Thank you.

And I cannot wait to hear about your interviewee today.

Well, mom, Jane Goodall, of course. I started crying at the end because I love her so much and what she's done for the world and for human beings and for animals and mom, can you believe her name? Goodall. You know, I had this acting teacher who used to say, pay attention to the names that Shakespeare gives to his characters because it tells you so much. And her name is Goodall.

Right.

And then at the end of the conversation, she was talking about hope and how hope requires activism. To be hopeful, requires doing. And mom, get a load of this. So when she first went to Tanzania and she was in Gombe studying the chimps, she was 26 years old. It was required for her to have a chaperone. So her mother was her chaperon own.

Oh, so. And what kind of relationship did she have with her mother?

Very close.

Oh, great.

So she and her mom lived in a tent. Mom. In the tanzanian jungle for months.

That's incredible. Incredible. How old was her mother at the time, I wonder?

56. Gosh, that's.

Yeah, right.

Isn't that amazing, mom?

Yeah, that's amazing.

Paula wants me to ask you what it would be like if you and I were in a tent together for four months.

Well, you know what, what we could find out.

I mean, are you inviting me to pitch your tent?

We've got a state park here. We can, you know, we have to keep out of the way of the hunters because the hunters come by three times a week and they, they have bows and arrows, so it's a little dangerous.

First of all, we're going to start by arguing where we pitched the tent, because I'm not pitching a tent in the state park where there are people with bows and arrows.

Yeah, well, see, what you want is a state park that has a four seasons very close by.

I would like a tent where I could call with a phone. I could call and get room service and turn down service and stuff like that, that would work well for us, mom.

Sure, sure. A little massage every now and then. I'm not against. So tell Paula that if she and I want to go, if she wants to find a tent there with me, I'm willing to try it. And we'll keep a journal and we'll let Julia know how we're doing.

I actually, I think we should bring Paula in. Okay, you guys, Paula Kaplan is my longtime best friend who actually makes this show with me. Paula, you need to come onto the zoom right now, and you need to start making plans with my mom because it looks like you're going to be spending some time together in a tent.

Yeah, Judy, exactly. You know, as long as we've got a little, you know, deodorizer to spray around so we don't have a stinky tent. It'll be all good.

Oh, oh, no, no, I'm sorry. No aerosol, nothing like that.

Oh, boy. Already there's a conflict and we'll get.

We'Ll get some lavender leaves or something.

Perfect.

Perfect.

And we'll do that for four months and it'll be so, yeah, it'll be.

So trying to do Julia.

We'll let you know how that goes.

Does, thanks. I appreciate it. I'll just be a phone call away. All right. Love you, mommy. I'm going to now say goodbye to you and I'm going to call you later today as a matter of fact, to check in.

Okay, that's lovely. I love you, sweet. Bye bye.

There's more wiser than me with Lemonade premium on Apple, you can listen to every episode of season three. Ad free subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the wiser than me podcast logo in the Apple podcast app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following wiser than me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiserthanme and we're on Facebook at wiserthanmepodcast. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louie Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamila Zara Williams, Alex McOan and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of new content and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts and if theres a wise old lady in your life, listen up.

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