Transcript of Venezuela Escalation, Shutdown Layoffs Paused, Military Pay

President Trump talks of striking Venezuela over the drug trade.

We've almost totally stopped it by sea.

Now we'll stop it by land.

That was as he said, he authorizes covert CIA operations in the country. So is it about drugs or regime change?

I'm Steve Inskeep with Leila Fadel, and this is up first from NPR News. The President started mass layoffs during the government shutdown. Now, a federal judge has stopped him, at least temporarily. Did the President overstep his authority?

And troops got their paychecks this week after the White House got involved. Seeing that come through was a big relief. As a family, we have four kids. It's a concern for us, and so it was nerve-wracking. But many military families are still struggling amidst the government shutdown. We'll tell you why. Stay with us. We'll give you the news you need to start your day.

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President Trump says he authorized a covert CIA operation inside Venezuela.

The President was answering a question about a New York Times report of that operation. Trump portrayed it as part of a pressure campaign against the Venezuelan drug trade.

We've almost totally stopped it by sea.

Now we'll stop it by land.

On Tuesday, the US military struck a fifth boat, which the administration said was carrying drugs. The US has built up forces in the Caribbean in a way that prompts questions about whether the operation involves something larger, regime change.

Npr White House correspondent, Franco Ordonias, joins us to talk about this. Good morning.

Good morning, Lynn.

Okay, so, Franco, we've seen these strikes on boats, which legal experts have called a flagrant violation of international and domestic law. The Trump administration disputes that. And now we're hearing this threat of land attacks. What more can you tell us about that?

Yeah, the administration has been talking about the boat strikes for weeks, but yesterday, Trump actually took it a step further. When he was asked about the reports on the CIA, Trump appeared to say that he had authorized the spy agency to take action inside Venezuela.

I authorized for two reasons, really. Number one, they have emptied their prisons into the United States of America.

Now, the administration hasn't provided any evidence that Venezuelan leader, Nicolas Maduro, is sending prisoners to the US. The second reason was the amount of drugs entering the US via Venezuela. I'll just emphasize that we don't know more details about this operation inside of Venezuela.

Okay, so tell us more about this military buildup, because it's led to a lot of questions about whether Trump is on a dangerous path to a bigger military conflict.

Right. I mean, we're talking about a lot of military hardware including destroyers and thousands of sailors and marines just off the Coast of Venezuela. Benjamin Gidan, who led the Venezuela portfolio at the Obama White House, told me that he doesn't think, quote, anyone plausibly believes this is merely a counter-narcotics operation.

It's such overkill in this naval deployment that there could be no justification if all the United States is trying to do is to attack a couple of small boats and intimidate drug traffickers. It's either a bluff meant to scare the pants off the Venezuelan generals or actual preparations for some war with Venezuela.

Now, the White House is defending its actions, saying Trump campaigned on a promise to take on the cartels and that he'll do whatever it's necessary to stop the flow of dangerous drugs coming into the US.

I mean, Franco, it seems really contradictory because you have this President who portrays himself as a President of peace and is pledging peace in one part of the world and then threatening military escalation in another.

Yeah. I mean, it's really quite the pivot, especially for a President who sometimes is characterized as an isolationist and is definitely inward-looking. But I'll just add that Trump has used military force before, but it's been in more limited ways. I mean, for example, take out the strikes this summer against Iran's nuclear facilities.

But, Franco, the big drug concern is fentanyl, which is trafficked by land through Mexico. So why such a focus on Venezuela?

Yeah, Leila, Trump We discussed this a bit yesterday as well. As we heard Trump say, some of this is about immigration and the number of Venezuelans who have entered the country. But these tensions date back to his first administration. I mean, let's just remember the context. Trump tried to topple Maduro in his first term. He spent a lot of political capital opposing him, yet Maduro is still there. And as Benjamin Gadan told me, Trump may see this as a bit of unfinished business.

That's a White House correspondence Franco Ordoñez. Thank you, Franco.

Thank you.

For now, the shutdown layoffs are on hold.

Yeah, a federal judge, at least temporarily, halted the Trump administration's attempts to slash the federal workforce during the government shutdown.

Npr's Andrea Hsu joins us to explain. Good morning, Andrea. Good morning. Okay, so in recent days, President Trump indicated that the layoffs were just getting going. What happened now?

Yeah, well, the judge overseeing this case, US district Judge Susan Ilston, right off the bat, she made pretty clear she believes these layoffs are probably illegal. So the plaintiffs in this case, Leila, are two labor unions representing federal workers. The judge said they were likely to prove that the administration is overstepping its authority, that what's happening with these layoffs is, quote, arbitrary and capricious. She granted the unions a temporary restraining order, halting the 4,000-some layoffs that are already underway and stopping agencies from sending out more layoff notices. This applies to 30-some government agencies where the unions have members.

Okay, so you mentioned the unions brought this lawsuit. What are they arguing?

They say the Trump administration is illegally using the shutdown to engage in what they call politically driven rifts or reductions in force. In their briefs and in court, the unions brought up the harm that federal workers are already suffering as a result. They say it's been a tumultuous year for federal workers, and now thousands are getting laid off during a shutdown, which means the HR staff they need to go to for paperwork, for information about how to continue their health care, those people are furloughed. The union's attorney said there are employees who are pregnant who are worried they won't have health insurance when their babies arrive. The court also heard that some employees didn't get layoff notices sent to them because they were told not to check their work email during the shutdown. Still, others were locked out of their email because their passwords had expired and the IT staff who could help them are also furloughed. Judge Ilston said it's clear the administration is doing things without fully thinking them through.

President Trump has spoken very openly about using the shutdown to get rid of what he calls, quote, Democrat programs. How did the government press its case in court?

Well, the government's attorney, Elizabeth Hedges, tried to convince the judge that she shouldn't even be hearing the case at all, and that cases involving personnel issues in the government have to be heard by a particular agency that handles such matters. And Leila, that agency is also shut down right now. Hedges also said most government agencies have not come to final decisions about whether to lay off staff or how many to lay off, so it would be inappropriate for the court to issue a blanket pause. But Judge Ilston kept pressing Hedges to explain why the government believes the shutdowns are legal, and Hedges repeatedly said she was not prepared to give the government's position on the merits. You know, Ilston seemed pretty frustrated by this. She said, The hatchet is falling on the heads of employees all across the nation, and you're not prepared to address whether that's legal.

Okay, but the judge issued only a temporary pause on the layoff, so how long does that last?

Well, typically two weeks. There will be another hearing on October 28th when the judge will consider indefinitely pausing the layoffs. Now, temporary restraining orders are meant to be stop gap measures. They're not generally appealable, but that hasn't stopped the Trump administration in the past, including in another case presided over by the same judge. So we can expect the administration to fight this pause all the way to the Supreme Court if it has to. Already, the Supreme Court has signaled a willingness to side with the government in cases about the fate of federal employees.

Npr's Andrea Hsu. Thank you, Andrea.

You're welcome.

After a Last minute intervention by the Trump administration, troops didn't miss a paycheck yesterday.

The fix did not resolve the underlying anxiety, though, felt by military families as the government shutdown continues.

Yeah. For more, we turn to Steve Walsh with W CRO. He covers the military in Norfolk, Virginia. Steve, welcome to the program.

Hi, Leila.

Take us through what's happening. So paychecks for active duty military did go out.

It looks like they did, though it was touch and go. Normally, during a government shutdown, lawmakers pass legislation to keep the paychecks flowing for active duty military who have to show up for work, manning bases and ships around the globe. The military has never missed a paycheck during a shutdown. Over the weekend, President Trump announced his administration would move $6. 5 billion in unused research funds to make payroll. Wednesday, troops report paychecks hitting their accounts. Department of Homeland Security officials have said they'll do something similar members of the Coast Guard.

Okay, so checks cleared on Wednesday. Does that fix the problem, at least for now?

Not really. Unemployment is an issue for military spouses since they move around the country so often. The Biden administration had encouraged spouses to take jobs with the federal government, including at their local base. Now, those spouses are not being paid along with other federal civilian workers, meaning their families are down a paycheck. The Navy Marine Corps Relief Society reports that a father of five couldn't buy groceries and approach them Friday for an emergency loan. A military spouse called because she faced eviction. Overall, the group has provided over 200 loans since October first, which is an enormous spike for them. Remember, food insecurity was already an issue for young military families before the shutdown. Given the run on food pantries that cater to military families, some are forced to close early since the shelves are empty. The armed services YMCA operates 22 food banks near military installations. They had seen a 30% jump in demand over the last couple of weeks. I dropped by their pantry in Virginia Beach yesterday. Given all the uncertainty, a military spouse with a 10-week-old child who asked not to be identified says she is worried that she won't be able to pay for her son's autism treatment.

Seeing that come through was a big relief. As a family, we have four kids. It's a concern for us, and so it was nerve-wracking. Okay, so one spouse is impacted, even if the military troops, active duty troops, get their paycheck. Steve, are there other factors explaining this surge in military families seeking services?

Well, the timing is particularly bad. Every year, over 400,000 military families pick up and move across the country or around the world. Military pays for the move, but Blue Star The family says the average family incurrs about $8,000 of moving expenses that are not picked up by the federal government. Everything from enrolling kids in a new school to replacing broken furniture. At the Arm Services, Wy, in Virginia, I talked to a Navy spouse Morley Proctor, who moved from Tennessee six months ago. The Navy hasn't reimbursed a couple for the 20 days when they were living in a motel.

I've been doing DoorDash on the side to help fill that gap, which is rough right now, too, because everybody else around is in the same position.

Talking to several sources, this shutdown feels very different from previous shutdowns. The next paycheck is due at the end of the month. Families are worried it may not happen on time.

Steve Walsh with member station WHRO in Norfolk, Virginia. Thank you, Steve. Thanks, Leila. That's a first for Thursday, October 16th. I'm Leila Fouledon.

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