Transcript of Oklahoma’s governor on Trump, immigration and tribal lands

After disagreements with President Trump, Oklahoma's governor talks of his party's future once Trump is out of office.

We have to get back to integrity. We've got to get back to a limited federal government.

Kevin Stitt talks of Trump, immigration, and more on a special edition of Up First from NPR News. I'm Steve Inskeep. Kevin Stitt is the conservative governor of a very red state who also objected to the President's retribution campaign.

That's on American. We cannot be a pendulum swing where we are going back and forth and we're killing different projects based on our political views, right?

Also, how does Stitt think about his heritage as a member of the Cherokee Nation? He takes pride in that identity, which has not prevented him from court battles with Cherokee leaders. Stay with us for Kevin Stitt, one of the conversations that shed light on our time. This message comes from Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. Or visit wise. Com. T's and C's apply. This message comes from CBC. Do you want kids? The mother of all questions is questioned in, personally, Creation Myth. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, Lulu here.

Whether we are romping through science, music, politics, technology, or feelings, we seek to leave you seeing the world a new.

Radiolab adventures right on the edge of what we think we know wherever you get podcasts.

You come to the New Yorker Radio Hour for conversations that go deeper with people you really want to hear from, whether it's Bruce Springsteen or Questlove or Olivia Rodrigo, Liz Cheney, or the godfather of Artificial Intelligence, Jeffrey Hinton, or some of my extraordinarily well-informed colleagues at The New Yorker. Join us every week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts. Kevin Stitt is governor of Oklahoma. He's also an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation and chairman of the National Governors Association, which put him at odds recently with President Trump during a meeting here in Washington. We had a conversation that ranged from immigration to tribal lands to Trump. Welcome to Washington, DC.

Thank you so much.

I want to note that we are talking in the middle of the National Governors Association meetings. People will mostly see this after this is all over, but we'll just note the place we are in time. I want to begin with the controversy of sorts that you're in the middle of. What went through your mind when you first realized that the President did not want to see all of the governors in meetings at the White House that are very normal as part of the NGA?

I thought, My goodness, that's such a wonderful time to be the chair of the National Governor Association. But here's the deal. The National Governor Association is bigger than a single meeting, and it was started in 1908 by Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt was President of the United States, but before that, he was governor of New York. He started the National National Governor's Association to bring Republican governors, Democrat governors together. He believed in states rights. He believed having different voices at the table. This idea of federalism that we believe that the federal government should be limited and the power belongs to the states or the people. That's what we believe. We believe that Maryland is different than Oklahoma, Oklahoma is different than Texas, or different than Florida, or different than California, and that's okay. We want to get back to that. I think It's a very, very important organization. The President can ask whoever he wants to the White House. But I just simply said, Hey, if it's not going to include all the governors, I represent all 50 governors, we can't facilitate it from the National Governor Association. So that's where the confusion got, and everybody was saying, Well, you've canceled the meeting, and the press was running with stuff.

And of course, I didn't cancel a meeting. I just simply said, We can't facilitate it from the National Governor Association.

When the President called you, as I believe he did at one point, how do you think about your different roles in that moment? You're the governor of Oklahoma. You're a Republican. You've been supportive of the President. You're also friends with people that he wanted to exclude. You're a citizen of the United States. How do you manage all of that? You're the head of the NGA.

Yeah, well, I mean, we had a conversation, and I think that the President was confused about the two different meetings. I don't think the staff did a very good job of briefing the President.

There's a meeting and a dinner.

Meeting and a dinner. After the phone call, the President said, No, it was my intention to invite everybody to the meeting, to the governor's meeting. I clarified that. We got those invitations out. Now there's been some other further confusion around that business meeting. Just a lot of confusion around that. But after that call, we literally got an invitation out to every single governor for the business portion of that meeting. The President, he's got a tough job and can't imagine all the things he goes through. But I've tried to tell all of my Democratic colleagues and all the Republican colleagues, Hey, it's important to have a good relationship with our federal partners. When Biden was in office, I sent all of my cabinet secretaries three times a year to meet with their federal counterparts. Rights, right? Whether it's USDA or Buttage Edge when he was the Transportation Secretary. I just think it's important that we have a good state-Federal relationship. Obviously, there's personalities and politics get involved, but the plays an important role, and I hope that we can get past this.

The President specifically included by name two Democrats, Westmore of Maryland and Jared Polis of Colorado. I've seen you with Governor Moore, you're friends. I can tell that. I don't know specifically about Polis, But I want to ask what you thought of the reasons the President gave for excluding first Westmore of Maryland.

Well, he didn't really give me any reasons for Westmore.

Said he's a bad governor, and other than that, it was hard to tell. But go on.

First off, I just want to say I have a lot of respect for Governor Moore, and I think that's what Americans want to see. That's why I did a TED Talk with Matt Myers, the governor of Delaware, and that's why I've done a lot of... That's why I'm part of the National Governor Association. A red state governor, Republican governor from the state of Oklahoma, I would have never had these relationships to meet a guy like Wes Moore, who's a Democrat governor of Maryland, and become friends with him and understand his heart for he's a great American. He loves this country. He served in the military. He loves the citizens of Maryland. And what I think Americans would find very interesting is we agree on much more than we disagree. We can have great conversations about permitting reform, the need for reliable, affordable energy, immigration reform. We even agree we have to have a strong border. And so I think that when people watch the news, they think that there's 17% of the people that are on these fringes. Most people think that that's where all of America is. But you know what? The Americans I know, the Oklahomaans I know, they're just saying, Governor, I want the best education for my kids.

I want the best infrastructure I want the best healthcare system. I want the best economy. I always tell Oklahomaans, Let's focus on those things. Let Washington DC play politics, and let's make Oklahoma top 10.

Some people took note that Governor Moore is the only black governor. Was that a role Here? Is that a factor here?

Oh, I don't think so. I don't think so at all. I think there's politics involved, and I can't speak to the reason, but no, I don't think that has anything to do with it.

The stated reason for Governor Polis being excluded is that there is a woman in state custody that Trump once released, a woman involved in a voting case. As someone who believes in federalism, which you mentioned, what do you make of the President saying, I want to pressure the governor of Colorado in that way to get someone out of state custody?

I mean, he's the President of the United States. He uses his bully pulpit, and that's part of something we all do as politicians to push our agenda. But Governor Polis, it's his decision to not do that. And I respect that. We have to believe in state's rights. I think that's the big thing that really frustrates Americans right now. And let's say Kamala Harris would have won. Oklahoma doesn't want to turn into California. Right now, Minnesota doesn't want to turn into Florida, or we can't have such a strong federal government that it's a one size fits all. Our founding father, specifically, took the power and said, You know what? There's going to be states and there's going to be federal government, and we're going to delineate those powers and those authorities, and we're going to give most of the power to the states. And that was such a brilliant move, because now we have 50 different laboratories of democracy. And what happens in Utah should be different than Idaho or than Maryland. And so, again, those are just two people trying to use their bully pulpit, and that's It is what it is.

Are you saying the President can have an opinion but should largely stay out of state matters where it's state authority?

That would be what I would say, yes. I would say the President needs to lead our country country needs to put forward different ideas, and then the legislature or the Congress has to pass those. But where the states have authority, it doesn't matter if it's Biden in the White House or if it's Trump or the next administration, we have to respect state sovereignty. I think that's a very critical point.

I'm glad you mentioned Minnesota. During the immigration operation in Minnesota, you spoke out and expressed concerns about it. Why did you think it was important to speak up at that time?

First off, Oklahoma, this is something that amazed people. We are number three in the country behind Texas and Florida and true numbers of turning over violent criminals to ICE and getting them out of our state. There's broad agreement we need We need a strong border, and we need to get criminals out of our country. But when we saw federal agents in states, a sovereign state, and I started thinking to myself, if the shoes on the other foot and the Biden administration would send federal agents into Oklahoma to enforce a law that he thinks is important, Oklahoma would be very, very frustrated. I just call a spade a spade, and I said, The President needs to tell us what's the end game. Is it truly to deport every single person here in the country? I don't think that's what America wants. We need immigration reform now, and I think we're overthinking this issue. I really do. I think other countries have figured it out, and we need to match employers with employees, and the states need to control those workforce permits. We're closer to our agriculture community. We're closer to our construction community. We're closer to the hospitality needs of our citizens.

Why are we not given three a year work permits? As long as you've got a job and an employer is vouching for you, now we know who's here legally. They're paying taxes. If you break the law, you're out. If you're on government services or you're taking advantage If you're out to Medicaid and not working, you're out. But this is a simple solution that other countries have figured out.

What would happen in Oklahoma if everybody here without legal status who is working a job disappeared tomorrow? What would happen?

It would be devastating. I I went down. I was in a very rural community, Trump voters. Trump won all of Oklahoma. So I went down and talked to a rural part of our state. These are Trump voting, Oklahoma from the rural part of our state. And I asked them these questions. I said, What are you guys thinking about this immigration issue? Just like I said, said, Governor, Trump won. He won on the issue of border security. We absolutely need to vet people coming into our country. We absolutely need to get criminals out. But they also whispered to me and they said, I run a construction company. I own a company that does this. I'm a farmer, and I have some illegals that work for me. And they're like family. They've been here for 15 years. They go to church with Their kids go to school. They're great people. They're trying to get workforce permits, and we can't figure it out. And that's when they're saying, Governor, you need as the governor to be able to issue these workforce permits so they can pay taxes, they can be here legally, and they can work. I'm not saying give them a citizenship, but let's figure this out because it would devastate the different industries across the country.

And you can talk to the Wisconsin dairy farmers or the Vermont dairy farmers or the The fisheries in Louisiana. We all need labor at some level, and workforce is very important for states and for our economy, and we need to figure this out.

If it was up to you, would you be giving those permits to people who are already here, who are here now, as opposed to saying, you've got to leave and come back and reply.

I absolutely would. I would figure this out, and I know it's nuanced, but I think that's where the American people are. You could make the argument, they have to leave and then come back, or... I I don't think that's practical either. But now, even from the people that say, let's get everybody out, think about this for a second. If everybody, either an employer had to vouch for them and they were here, now you know who the non-workers are, or you know who the gang the hangers are, the people that don't have a job. You get them out. The countries that do this, they don't have the crime because they don't overthink this thing. I just think this immigration piece has been so politicized, and now It doesn't feel like Congress is going to do anything until after the midterms because Democrats think they're winning on it, Republicans think they're winning on it, and there's just this stalemate. But states should be at the table to lead on this issue. States build bridges and roads. We are hiring teachers and building schools. It's not the federal government that builds and teaches our kids. So why do we give this to the federal government to handle the immigration?

Give it to the states.

In a moment, we continue conversation with Governor Kevin Stitt, and here is the question, why would President Trump ever agree to let workers stay if he imagines they're voting against him? This week on the NPR politics podcast, the CBS Stephen Colbert dust-up is part of a pattern.

Corporations are changing to avoid angering President Trump and his administration.

It's really the first time I can remember so many of these organizations have bent because of their His own business interests. This week on the NPR politics podcast. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of Republicans, the President included, connect illegal immigration with other issues. The President has repeatedly stated the belief that people without status are voting and voted against him by the millions. Has that ever happened in Oklahoma?

In Oklahoma, I'm glad you're asking about this. I believe you should have to show an ID. I think that's It's already law in Oklahoma. I can't walk up to the voting booth and look at the sheet of paper and go, Yeah, that's me right there. That feels weird to me. I think it feels weird to most Americans. I have to show my ID and say, I'm Kevin Stitt. There I am on the list. And Can you hand me a paper ballot. I fill it out. It goes into a machine. We keep it. Oklahoma's election laws are fantastic. I wish every state had that. We have some states right now in America that are sending out ballots just to every single person. They just mail them There's no real control. I think that is a problem. How you prove, I think that ID is a very normal thing. I think that's the big picture we're trying to get to.

I get it, but do you think that this happens? Because this seems to make it very difficult to imagine a solution if the President believes people here without status are voting. There's no way he would agree to let them stay here to work, but it doesn't seem to be happening. I should just note, there's no evidence of more than a handful of cases over many years.

I don't think I think there's a broad issue with... I think there's problems state by state, but nationalizing our federal election system, I don't think is the solution either.

Which is the thing the President has talked about recently.

It needs to belong to the state level. We need to tighten it up. I think we should. It's already Allah, by the way, that you have to be a US citizen to vote. So we need to somehow make sure that's happening, what the solution is. I'll let Congress debate that. But I will also say, even my Democrat governor colleagues, they're not trying to get illegals here to turn them into voters. I don't believe that's what Democrat politicians are trying to do. And just like Republicans get a bad rap that people think that Republicans don't like immigrants. That's not true. There's some common ground that if we can sit down together, we can figure this out. But politics drives you to your corners.

How do you find common ground with people who are Conservatives who worry about cultural change to the country? That that's their reason that they're worried about immigration.

This is a melting pot. It's been a melting pot for a long, long time. I get those concerns when we see what's happening in some of those communities. That's why we need to have workforce permits. I think by the states, we have states rights for a reason. You can choose to move to another state, I guess.

Ryan Walters, who for a very long time was the superintendent of public instruction, that was one of his education positions in Oklahoma, made a move on immigration before he left office. We'll just acknowledge for people not from Oklahoma, Long history with Ryan Walters, went back and forth, ultimately had to leave office. But I'm interested specifically in Walters' support for an effort to require students in Oklahoma schools to disclose their citizenship and for the parents' citizenship to be disclosed. You thought that was a bad idea. Why?

Well, first off, with our law enforcement, like I said, we're number three in the country for getting illegal criminals out of our state. In the entire country. We've done this all behind the scenes, working with ICE. Like in our jails, we actually turn them over to ICE to deport them. I'll say that off the bat. But we're not going to pick on kids. I'm not going to make a first grader a criminal. And so when I saw that happening, I put a stop to that. And I said, Listen, there's nobody that's going to go into use a kid as a pond to try to get to a parent. I just thought that was ridiculous. We're going to educate young people in Oklahoma. And again, if we fix the immigration issue, this issue goes away. They're not a US citizen, but they're here working, doing a job, whether they're working for Boeing or they're working for the local farm or they're working for a wherever it is, whatever the employer needs. I just think we're overth that issue.

There's a larger question there that people debate, and there's one point of view that if somebody is here illegally or their parents are here illegally, the kids should not be in school because taxpayers are paying for the schools and it costs the state money, and you don't want to spend that money. There is, of course, this other point of view that a kid, if he's here at all or she's here at all, they should be in school because that's better for society. Where do you come down on that?

Probably the latter. But again, if they were here and had a job, what is wrong with that? Do I want to take care of and have people on Medicaid here that are illegally? 100% not. But if you have a job and you're working and a company is vouching for you, that's the difference. Then, of course, we're going to educate the kids. They're paying taxes like everybody else. They're in the society. We need more workers here. We know that. We broadly know that. If you talk to the dairy industry, if you talk to the, let's say, big sheep farmers, they already have these certain visas, and we have a lot of people, Peruvians that come in, and they'll have a three-year contract for sheep herders. There are solutions, But the federal government is way too slow. We would absolutely kill some of these industries if we don't have some immigration thought process to how we have companies vouch for I appreciate you saying Peruvians in Oklahoma, because I think maybe people who haven't been there don't appreciate that it's a rather diverse place, maybe more diverse than they would realize. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm an American Indian.

We have 400,000 natives proud of our heritage in Oklahoma. But yeah, I mean, very diverse people in Oklahoma.

When people hear the Republican Kevin Stitt identifies as an American Indian, they're often surprised. In a moment, continue our conversation by asking what he makes of that native heritage and why he has battled with Cherokee Nation leaders in Oklahoma. Greenland has said it is not for sale. Denmark has said it can't even legally sell Greenland.

Whether Trump can or will or should try to control or purchase a territory that does not want to be sold is one question.

But on Planet Money, we are more interested in how we even got to this moment and how we might gracefully get out of Listen to Planet Money on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. I want people to know, if they don't, that you're an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation. What does that identity mean to you personally?

Yeah, very proud of my heritage. But I would differ in the fact that a lot of people think that, well, Indians are owed something or they need special treatment. If If you read anything about me in Oklahoma, I'm in a little bit of a conflict with some of the tribes because I don't believe we should be divided based on race. I think we should be a meritocracy. It doesn't matter if you're black or white or Hispanic or Asian or American Indian. We're all Americans. Go chase the American dream. There's no such thing as equal outcomes, only opportunities. I went to public schools. Then I went to Oklahoma State, then I started a business. I've lived the American dream. I I started my company with $1,000 on a computer. My parents weren't wealthy, and I created a company in America. This is only in our country. We live in the greatest country in the world. I'm just afraid that we're teaching young people that, Oh, because of my race, I deserve this, or I should get something special. I think that's a loser strategy. We can't teach that to the young people. We want you to go dream, work hard, achieve things.

If you invest capital, take risks, work hard, get an education, you should be rewarded for that.

Couple of follow-ups on that. I don't want to get into all the details because it's complicated, but we should explain for people that part of Oklahoma was historically Indian territory. There are tribal lands there. There have been lawsuits for many years before you were governor over who has authority where there was even a Supreme Court ruling. The question on the table for you is, what authority, if any, does the state have to enforce state law on tribal There's a court ruling that's found that you don't have that authority. You're even being sued by some of the Indian nations over this right now. What is your fundamental concern in asserting state authority to enforce state law on tribal lands?

Sure, absolutely. Well, first off, the case was called the McGirt case, and he was a child rapist. In a 5-4 decision, Gorsich was the fifth vote.

conservative justice.

conservative justice that said that The reservation still exists in Oklahoma. Even though we disbanded our reservations at Statehood, 1907, we allowed it out all of our land, 160 acres at a time. It used to be a reservation, and it so had been bought and sold. Tulsa, Oklahoma now is considered, according to them, half the Creek reservation and half Cherokee. So what is the fundamental problem with that? Fundamental problem is an Indian, somebody that looks like me, they're saying that I don't have to pay taxes if I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. But a person of another race has to. But yet our kids all drive on the same... We go to the same schools, we drive on the same roads. That's the problem. That's the rub. They're also saying that the district attorney can't prosecute me for a crime. And so the max penalty to me to do something would be three years in prison versus somebody of another race can get 20 years. We have cases right now. Two guys, same crime on the same day. One is in prison for 20 years. One is out because he's an Indian. That, to me, is not fair.

And this is a huge problem that we need to talk about nationally. We can't have two different systems based on your race.

I think Justice Gorsuch or tribal leaders would probably say, Well, it's not about race. It's about sovereignty. There's this historic nation that was never totally extinguished, and it's still there, and they have certain rights. What are they missing?

Well, number one, they're missing that you can't apply the reservation in the Navajo reservation. All that land was held in reserve by the tribes. It's not fee-simple land been bought and sold for hundreds of years. Can't apply that here because the state of Arizona doesn't build roads on the reservation. They don't build schools or hospitals. You can't be part of the Medicaid system if you live on the reservation. They have their own health care system. If you apply that same rule to Oklahoma, think about that for a second. Oklahoma builds roads and bridges and schools and we police that part. How can we police and build roads there, but yet all the money from Western Oklahoma is going to Eastern Oklahoma? That'll literally tear our state apart. That's what I tried to explain to people is that we have an equalization formula on everything. You cannot have a system where this race doesn't contribute the same amount and has a different set of rules.

How did you find out you were Cherokee?

I've known my whole life.

Your mom told you when you were a kid?

Yeah, my cousin's all rodeo in the Indian Rodeo Association. There's no blood quantum, right?

It's just that you're descendant from people who were put on a list in the-That's right.

It was the Daws roles. From my mom's side of the family, Robert Dawson was on the Daws roles at Statehood, and he had his blood quantum on there. I'm his descendant, and so I'm on there. So when my six kids marry your six kids, then now your kids will be Indian. So there is no blood quantum. All six of my children are, and now I have my first grandson. My daughter, thank you. My daughter married a young man from North Carolina, and they met at Baylor. So it will just keep going is the point. And so I think it's an important question, what is race anymore? We're all a little bit of something. And I just don't believe we should be divided based on that.

How would you want Americans to think about other Americans that have different identities, whether Cherokees in Oklahoma or Somalias in Minnesota or any number of other people that we could name across the country?

It's so fun to get to know other cultures and other races and other people. Traveling is so good for us. Like Westmore, an African-American governor from another party. We like each other and hang out and we have the same interests. I've invited him to go duck hunting in Oklahoma. Did he come? He hasn't come yet, but we're going to. He's a big duck hunter. He wants me to come out to Maryland with him as well.

They got ducks. They got ducks. Yeah.

Go on. Anyway, when you break bread with others that are different than you, that grew up differently, I love that. I love meeting Kathy Hochul. Here's the New York governor that grows up totally different than a guy from rural Oklahoma. It's just so fun to meet them. We're all Americans. That's what makes our country so great is that we are diverse, and we all come and bring different perspectives perspectives to this idea that we believe in free markets and entrepreneurship. The American culture is amazing.

One final thing. What conversations are Republicans like yourself having about the future of the party and what it should stand for after President Trump leaves the stage?

Well, I'm trying to just really bring the States forward a little bit right now as my job as the Chair of the National Governor Association. But I think if we talk about getting government out of our lives, limiting government, lower taxes, unlocking the entrepreneur spirit, stop the pendulum swings. When I think about, we had President Obama killed the Keystone Pipeline, and then Trump brings it back, first Trump, and then Biden kills it again. Then Trump tries to bring it back. Well, finally, the developers are saying, Forget this. I don't want to do it anymore. I've wasted all this money, and then you guys just keep changing the rules on me. And just like today, governor of Rhode Island. They have a win project that they did everything right. They've been working on it for eight years. They have all their permits. They're 90 % complete, and they just get the plug pulled on them. That is un-American.

By the administration?

Yeah.

You said that's un-American to do that.

That's un-American. We cannot be a pendulum swing where we are going back and forth and we're killing different projects based on our political views, right? I think America needs to get back to get government out of our lives, let businesses go innovate, meet the needs of Americans. At the same point, what they did to President Trump's businesses and attacking him in the court system in New York and raiding his home in Mar-a-Lago in Florida, that's wrong. At the same sense, when we get into power, We can't politicize the Department of Justice. That's just such a turn off for Americans right now. I just think that we have to get back to integrity. We've got to get back to a limited federal government and putting States back in charge.

I feel like you're telling me you want to go to the 2012 Republican Party or name a date, but sometime before 2016. Am I right?

Listen, I believe that we should just get back to putting those things forward that we've always done.

Governor Steed, it's a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

This has been a special edition of Up First from NPR News, one of our all-platform interviews, as we call them. It's a podcast. It's video. It's on the radio. On Morning Edition. This episode of Up First was produced by Adam Bieren with engineering support from Margaret Luther, David Greenberg, and Tiffany Vera Castro. Our Deputy Executive Producer is Kelly Diggons, and our Executive Producer is Jay Shaler. I'm Steve Inskeep. Thanks for joining us. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks?

Amazon Prime members can listen to Up First sponsor-free through Amazon Music.

Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get Up First Plus at plus. Npr. Org. That's plus. Npr. Org.

I bet this guy on the bar train one time, and I had my bass with me, and he goes, Man, what do you want to do? What's your dream?

I'm Jesse Thorne on Bullseye, Raphael Siddique. He's nominated for an Oscar. He played bass for Prince, and of course, he co-founded Tony, Tony, Tony.

When I go, I want to be in a band with my brother.

That's on the next Bullseye. Find us in the NPR app at maximumfund. Org or wherever you get podcasts.

Life Kit can help you change your life in record time. In just about 20 minutes, a Life Kit episode gives you evidence-based tips you can put into practice that day. No fast forwarding to get to the good stuff. Just smart, straightforward advice right away. Listen to the Life Kit podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.