Transcript of Nicole Lovell

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Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 544. Of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

Hey, I'm doing good, man. How about you?

Having a great week.

Yeah.

Um, you know, fall weather. I love the fall. The only problem with fall is it quickly turns to winter. Not as big a fan of winter.

Yeah.

And they keep predicting we're gonna have a bad one.

That's what I hear.

And I don't like the sound of that.

I might have to get a snowblower.

Yeah. I would seriously be thinking about it.

Yeah.

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Vance.

Hey, Vince.

What did you think? I should correct mine before you say, hey, Vince? I said Vance for some reason. We had Vince.

Hey, Vince.

Lisa.

What's going on, Lisa?

Chris Derry.

Well, hey, Chris. Oh, Derry, like in, uh, the balloon guy.

The balloon guy.

Yeah. In the sewer. The red balloons.

You mean the clown?

The clown. Yeah.

Okay. Why are you calling him the balloon guy? That's the most important thing about him?

What's the

balloons?

What's his name?

I don't know. I forget what his name is. But the show is It.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I forget what his exact name is.

Yeah. Was that since that's in Derry, right?

Derry, Maine? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Is that right? I don't know.

Chris is like, my name says Chris Derry, dudes.

It has nothing to do with that.

Yeah.

We had Lisa Marie.

What's going on, Lisa?

Luis Calvillo.

Ah, Calvillo.

Sarah Hyde jumped out at our highest level.

Thanks, Sarah.

And last but not least, Jessica Blair.

The Jessica Blair, by the way.

And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Angela Perpingan.

Perpingan.

So we appreciate all the support, new support, continued support. You just like to say that last name. I

did. Perpingan.

Weird emphasis, but hey, let's go with it. So we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved where we're talking about Trish Haynes. She disappeared under mysterious circumstances after traveling from Florida to New Hampshire in 2018 to appear in court. And this is a, a one of those cases, Gibbs, where it is unsolved, but there is a lot of speculation both in the community and online. About who might have been involved in her death. Yeah.

Well, there's definitely some interesting twists.

Yeah. So make sure you check that out. And then on next Thursday's TCAT, we're talking about James Robertson, a Florida inmate who was executed just earlier this month, right in October, nearly 2 decades after killing his cellmate because he wanted to get the death penalty.

And I'm actually surprised this doesn't happen more often.

Well, yeah, I am too. But it is a, uh, kind of a, a very intriguing case.

It is.

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

I am.

We're talking about Nicole Lovell. 13-year-old Nicole Lovell went missing from her home in Virginia on January 30th, 2016. Investigators analyzing her phone activity discovered that for months she had been messaging with an 18-year-old freshman at Virginia Tech who immediately became the prime suspect. And how could this person, right, not become the prime suspect? Number one, you're an 18-year-old messaging with a 13-year-old.

Yeah. What, what, what the heck are you doing?

And then You know, what are the, the messages about, right? We'll get into some of that. But then this person goes missing. Yeah, police are gonna wanna talk to you. They're going to be looking into you. Nicole Madison Lovell was born on May 3rd, 2002. She lived in Christiansburg, Virginia, and was a middle school student at the time of her death.

13.

13 years old. According to 48 Hours, Nicole was born with a damaged liver and needed a transplant before her first birthday. She had to take anti-rejection medication every day to prevent organ failure. Oh,

that would be rough.

It would be, especially, you know, you have a child, that baby's not even a year old and needs a transplant, a liver transplant. Man, as a parent, you would be worried sick. And then even after that, right, if she's got to take this medication every day just to prevent organ failure, that's got to be on your mind as well.

For sure.

She also underwent a tracheotomy. Her illness and treatment left her with scars on her stomach and neck, and sadly, Nicole was bullied in school because of her Kids

are assholes.

Well, you and I have talked about it. I don't know if it's as bad today, and I hope it's not. I don't think it is because of all the anti-bullying campaigns that have been started that are out there. But when you and I were in, you know, elementary school, middle school, even high school, there was a lot of bullying.

There was.

And unfortunately, I was on the receiving end of some of it, not a lot of it. I was a fairly quote-unquote normal kid. I hate to say that.

Yeah.

But I, I know there were a lot of kids who were looked at as different. They got picked on a lot.

Hate seeing that, you know?

Yeah. But, you know, when you're young, when you're that age, I would love to have thought that I would have stood up for them. Sadly, I didn't. I didn't participate in it. I was just keeping my head low.

Yeah.

You know, I, I didn't want to be the target, so I wasn't going to stick my neck out. Now, if I could make myself go back and do it, I'd do it differently.

Well, yeah. I mean, hindsight, sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I think there's a lot of kids that go along with it just because they don't want to be a target. So they'll go ahead and Laugh or join in, maybe, because it's better to do that than not do that and be the next, you know, target.

Or they're trying to fit in.

Trying to fit in.

I think that, that could be a big part of it as well.

Yeah.

According to 48 Hours, Nicole's social media posts revealed that she was lonely, experienced suicidal thoughts, and thought no one cared about her. And that's, uh, Unfortunately, you know, some of the things that bullying can do.

It really can. It makes me sad thinking about that, right? That anybody has to feel like that.

Nicole's mother, Tammy Weeks, also said that Nicole had a difficult relationship with her father, David, who spent time in prison for a drug charge. David left Tammy weeks before Nicole was born, and they were never married. According to Tammy, she wanted his attention. She wanted his love. David Lovell told 48 Hours, I have regrets that I wasn't there. You know, what did I do wrong? Why wasn't I there for her more often? Nicole went missing on January 27th, 2016. Investigators believe she snuck out of her bedroom window. Her mother Tammy discovered she was missing when she went to the bedroom and found a nightstand pushed up against the door And the window open. She called Nicole's friends and drove to the police station. Okay, that would be frightening. It's one thing to open up the door and, and not see your daughter when you think she's asleep. It's the other thing to try to open the door and realize that there's a nightstand pushed up against it and the window is left open.

Yeah, you're being kept out. They're trying to keep you out.

Who though, right?

Yeah.

Is it your daughter because she left out the window, or was it someone else who took your daughter and left out the window? Either way, you're scared.

Yeah, you have to be. And I think initially you would, you would probably think somebody had to take her because why would my daughter ever want to leave me?

After Tammy reported Nicole missing, a neighborhood mother called Tammy and said that Nicole had been playing with her daughters. And mentioned she was going on a date. Tammy feared Nicole left to see someone she met online. Tammy also knew that Nicole would not leave home for an extended time without her daily medication. And it was important, right? We talked about it. She needed this medication to prevent organ failure after her transplant. Investigators found usernames and passwords To Nicole's accounts on her bedroom wall. FBI computer forensic experts traced Nicole's account information and established that she used Kik, a messaging app. Tammy told 48 Hours that when she saw Nicole had the Kik app, she made her delete it, but she believed Nicole reinstalled it.

What, a kid doesn't listen to you?

And goes against your wishes. Yeah, I mean, let's face it, that's what kids do, right? It's a, it's a constant battle over certain things, especially with the proliferation of social media. You know, that constant battle of how much time should kids be allowed to spend on their phones. But let's face it, keeping them off of them, or it's very tough.

Uh, almost difficult. I mean, almost impossible.

Almost impossible, right? I mean, nobody talks on the phone anymore. Everything's messages or, uh, comments on social media. The FBI put in an emergency disclosure request to Kik and discovered that in the last 2 days before she disappeared, Nicole was messaging a person with the username Dr. Tombstone. The IP address was traced to 18-year-old David Eisenhower, a freshman engineering student at Virginia Tech. David was described as an ambitious and focused student. He was a high school track star who earned straight A's. In high school, he was named Boys Indoor Track Performer of the Year, and he chose Virginia Tech to pursue engineering while still competing in track.

So based on that, I mean, he sounds like an overachiever.

Yeah, I mean, straight-A student, high school track star, you know, he's going into engineering, which is not the easiest thing in the world, right? That's a tough field.

Yeah,

the workload is going to be tough.

Virginia Tech's a really good school.

On January 30th, 2016, David was picked up for questioning. David's roommate, Jeremy Bastillo, told 48 Hours that David's behavior the night Nicole went missing was strange. According to Jeremy, David put on boots even though it wasn't raining hard. He returned at 2:00 AM. David normally kept a knife on his desk, but that knife was gone when the police showed up to their dorm room on January 30th.

Okay. Some suspicious activity.

Well, you know, think of dorm life. You are living with at least one person, if not more, sometimes in the same room, right? You're sleeping, this guy's got a knife on his desk. I assume you would have had multiple knives all around the dorm room. It'd be like a Dwight in The Office situation. You're just hiding throwing stars and knives and things all, all over the place.

It's preparation.

But how suspicious is this that the roommate notices, okay, this knife is always there and suddenly it's gone when the police show up? During his interview with the police, David admitted that he recently encountered Nicole on an anonymous chat app. And then they moved over to Kik. He said, as quoted by 48 Hours, she's like, hey, do you want to message me on an app called Kik? And I'm like, sure, whatever. He claimed he met Nicole in person just once, on the night she went missing. He went to meet her, saw how young she was, and left. David said, I see like she's like 11, and I go, oh no, I got to get out of here. Gotta get out of here. Gotta get out of here.

Well, if that's how it went down, good for him, right? I mean, maybe she portrayed herself as being older during their conversations.

I think that's what he's trying to relay, right? I didn't know how old she was. When I finally did see her in person, I was like, oh my gosh, she is very young, and I just left. But Nicole's Kik account records discredited David's statements. It showed that they had been chatting on Kik for months, had met in person at least once before, and most likely had sex.

Oh, see, so not a great guy after all.

Well, but is it surprising to you that this guy, when questioned by police, is going to try to spin a story, right, is going to downplay his involvement. He's a smart kid.

Sure, yeah.

He knows how much trouble he could get into for meeting this 13-year-old girl, and especially for having any sexual contact with this 13-year-old girl. David volunteered that he purchased a new snow shovel. and said, would it help to mention I had someone with me when I bought the shovel for snow purposes? Her name is Natalie Keepers. Okay, uh, I don't know what you make of that. Would it help to mention I had someone with me when I bought this snow shovel? Is he trying to set up his alibi?

Sounds like it.

Also, why does a freshman in college need a snow shovel?

Maybe he's out there trying to make some money.

Well, I guess that could be a possibility. I mean, you don't have to shovel the snow at the dorm, right? They have somebody who does that. Now, if we're talking something to maybe get it off your car, that would be one thing. But 19-year-old Natalie Keepers was also a freshman engineering student at Virginia Tech. She wanted to follow in her father's footsteps. And worked for NASA. She had interned at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, led science experiments at her church's Bible school, and hoped to have a career in aerospace or ocean engineering.

Well, wouldn't those be some tough shoes to fill, to follow?

Yeah, your dad worked at NASA, but no doubt she was setting her sights high, right? Her goals high. In her interview, Natalie detailed a shocking plot to kill Nicole. She claimed that David feared Nicole was about to expose their inappropriate relationship, and he asked for help brainstorming ways to kill her. On the day of her disappearance, they bought the shovel, went out to get food, and then David dropped her off at her dorm. He had prearranged a date with Nicole. So right away, my first thought is, It seemed to me that David thought bringing up Natalie was going to be good for him, right? Like she was going to be his alibi, or she was going to help clear him in some way. Obviously, that's the exact opposite of what happened. She throws him under the bus immediately.

Yeah, she says, here's some things you need to know.

But here again, If you're planning on killing someone, why are you brainstorming with other people? And how do you not believe that that's going to come back and bite you at some point in time?

Yeah, because it seems like it always does.

Boy, it does, because the more people who know about it, the more people, you know, who can rat you out. According to Natalie, David picked Nicole up, drove her to the woods, And stabbed her to death. The next day, they went to Walmart for cleaning supplies and disposed of the body. Natalie claimed her body was on the road by David's grandparents' house. And on January 30th, Nicole's body was found 90 miles from home, just over the state line in North Carolina. She was found naked and her body was concealed off a road. She suffered 14 stab wounds. Including a lethal wound to her neck. And this is a horrible situation.

It is.

We're talking about a young 13-year-old girl. So first off, shame on this guy for, you know, having inappropriate conversations with a 13-year-old, instigating any type of sexual contact with her,

grooming her, really

grooming her. Yeah, you're right about that. And then ultimately making the decision that he has to kill her because he's afraid she's going to reveal what they have been up to. And I don't blame her at all. She's 13 years old. Does she know right from wrong? It's tough with a 13-year-old.

No, she's going to be very influenced.

Yeah, she's going to be naive and She probably thinks, oh, you know, this is an older guy, but he's 18 years old. 100%, Gibbs, he knows this is wrong.

Exactly.

A straight-A student. There's no doubt in my mind.

Yeah, he knows what he was doing was not okay.

David Eisenhower was charged with first-degree murder, abduction, and concealing a body. Natalie was charged with improper disposal of a dead body And accessory after the fact. The Blacksburg Police said in a statement, based on the evidence collected today, investigators have determined that Eisenhower and Nicole were acquainted prior to her disappearance. Eisenhower used his relationship to his advantage to abduct the 13-year-old and then kill her. Keepers helped dispose of Nicole's body. And this whole thing is shocking, right? The murder of a 13-year-old girl by an 18-year-old, you know, freshman college student. But add in this female freshman college student making the decision to participate in the disposal of the body and the cover-up of the murder. Yeah.

Why? Yeah, I don't know why she's doing it unless maybe there's some type of, uh, attraction that she has towards him

and maybe she thinks by helping him out one day they can get together. Yeah, I don't know. Investigators looked deeper into David's online activity and were led to Bryce Dustin, David's online gaming friend of 6 years. David went to Bryce frequently about girl problems. He spoke about a problem with one particular girl whom Bryce later came to believe was Nicole. David told Bryce that he found out the girl was underage and she wanted to be with him and she was going to expose him if he wouldn't be with her. David was worried about being outed. Bryce offered David some advice, which he shared with 48 Hours. He said, If she wants to be your girlfriend, you know, let her, but don't be the greatest boyfriend. Just like, don't text her. Just ignore her. She'll go away.

Well, the old, uh, just go along with it. Be a jerk, a piece of shit. And she'll be like, yeah, I don't want to be with this guy. I'll break up with him.

Yeah. I'm not sure it's the greatest advice. I'm not sure it's the worst ever, but, uh, certainly maybe not the greatest. But let's step back and dissect this a little bit, right? Why was David so worried about being outed? And my thought, Gibbs, is that he would only be worried if he had gone to a place that he knew was illegal, right? That he shouldn't have gone. Because if it was simply a case of him talking to a girl online that he thought was 18 or older, And then later found out that she was younger. What trouble would he get into?

None.

I mean, certainly not to the point where you would feel like you needed to kill someone.

No, maybe you feel embarrassed a little bit.

Yeah.

But outside of that, unless you took it to one of those other levels you were just talking about.

Or you knew she was underage.

Or you knew she was underage. And you were trying to groom her.

Yes. And that's my thinking completely. He's making it seem like they had been talking and then he all of a sudden, right, found out that she was underage. On July 26th, 2016, David was indicted for kidnapping, first-degree murder, and concealing a body. Natalie was indicted for accessory before the fact and concealment. An accessory before the fact is interesting. You often hear of it as accessory after the fact, but there's no doubt she was involved in the discussions prior to the murder happening.

Yeah.

Testimony in David's murder trial began on February 6th, 2018. Prosecutor Mary Pettit told the jury that David killed Nicole because he feared his inappropriate relationship. with her would be exposed. They had communicated online for months and met in person before. Natalie Keepers, David's accomplice, told the police that David was worried Nicole could be pregnant. David told Natalie he may have had sex with Nicole at a party but couldn't remember because he blacked out and later woke up in a ditch. You believe in that one?

I'm not believing that one.

Me neither. But maybe it's because I just don't believe what this guy, you know, is saying to a bunch of different people.

But when you meet her at this party, are you not going, huh, she doesn't look old enough?

Yeah, I'm probably— very, very hard to mistake a 13-year-old For an 18, 19, 20-year-old. I get it, some people look older than what they are.

Yeah, with makeup and all that. Yeah.

But the difference between 13 years old and 18, 19 is pretty stark.

Yeah.

And now we add in this idea that David thought that Nicole was pregnant. And that takes it up to a completely different level for why he might have been worried that she was going to out him. You cannot get past the fact that you had some sexual contact if this girl is pregnant with your baby.

Yeah, because at that point it's sexual assault.

Yeah, it's going to be sexual assault, but you can't explain it away. You can't say, no, we didn't Have any type of contact. There can be no he said, she said. There's only proof, right? At that point in time, David and Natalie plotted to kill Nicole for nearly a month. They brainstormed ideas about the best way to commit murder. David and Natalie planned to kill Nicole somewhere out of the way. They scouted locations and settled on a remote stretch of road. 15 miles from campus. Craig Creek Road cuts into the thick woods that form the George Washington and Jefferson National Forest in a remote area of rural Virginia that feels a world apart from the teeming university. Virginia Tech students are known to camp and party in the area. And man, what gives? I gotta go back because we know that Natalie was an accessory before the fact But now we find out that they had been plotting this murder, uh, together for nearly a month. I

mean, Natalie's really involved.

Very involved. And I still want an answer to the question, what? Were these lifelong friends? Were these people who just met in engineering school as freshmen and somehow got to the point where She was willing to help this guy plan a murder, or like you said, was she in love with him?

Yeah.

And she was doing it for, you know, reasons along that line. After midnight on January 27th, 2016, Nicole climbed out of her window to meet David for a secret date. David lured Nicole out of her home and took her to the remote spot where she was killed. He stabbed Nicole 14 times and cut her throat. Natalie helped load the body into the car and dispose of the body in North Carolina.

I mean, to me, Natalie is just as guilty.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she is involved in every step of this, right? From the planning to she's there helping load the body into the car.

Which means that she might have been able to stop it and chose not to.

Well, I think she could have stopped it, right? Anywhere along the path, she could have stopped it by just going to police.

Absolutely.

And saying, hey, this guy I know came to me and said that he wants to murder this 13-year-old girl.

And how brutal. 14 stab wounds, sliced, you know, cut her neck. She's just 13.

Yeah, it's hard to think about. It really is. Prosecutors noted that David's DNA was found under Nicole's fingernails and her blood was found in the trunk of his car. David's defense tried to shift blame to Natalie Keepers. Defense attorney John Lichtenstein said Natalie was fascinated with knives and deeply motivated to kill Nicole. They argued that the evidence would show someone else was at the scene. Although Nicole insisted she wasn't present for the murder. I don't know, if she wasn't present for the murder, what did she do? Drive out there afterward and help load the body?

Yeah, doesn't make sense, does it?

Well, I mean, she could have done that. Obviously, she had to have known the exact location, or he had to have called her. The defense said the evidence would show someone else was at the scene. The defense argued that Natalie killed Nicole and a bloody handprint on the shovel proved it. According to the defense, David wanted to wipe his cell history clean, but Natalie wanted to talk about killing Nicole. She was exhilarated and excited when she discussed killing Nicole with David. According to attorney John Lichtenstein, it was Natalie Keepers who said she wanted a more permanent solution. Nicole's mother, Tammy Weeks, was the first witness at trial. She testified about how she discovered her daughter was missing on January 27th, 2016. Law enforcement testified about the forensic evidence in the case, including a bloodstained shovel and a large bloodstain inside the trunk of David's car. Police also found a piece of paper with Nicole's address on it in David's dorm room. Detective Dena Jones from the Blacksburg PD analyzed spreadsheets of data from David's GPS. The prosecution also had a Walmart receipt matching the time from GPS records. David purchased a shovel and aerosol from Walmart.

The GPS showed movement to a cookout restaurant in Blacksburg, then cut off at Craig Creek Road. It showed movement again on Fairfax Road where Natalie lived. The GPS moved through Blacksburg again to Christiansburg and around to the Virginia Tech campus. On January 27th, the GPS marked points on Craig Creek Road, then back to Wytheville, then to the Walmart. The prosecution presented photos of Natalie and David. walking through the Walmart in Christiansburg on January 26th and purchasing and leaving with a shovel. So I think, you know, the prosecution has some, you know, fairly good evidence.

I think so too.

They have proof that the 2 of them together bought this shovel, a shovel which later has Natalie's blood on it, right? There's this big bloodstain from her in David's trunk. Her address is written on a piece of paper in his dorm room. And obviously they have the, the logs, right? The text logs, the chat logs. They have his GPS movements. It's not looking good.

Oh, I feel like he's pretty much screwed.

But what is the defense trying to do? They're not saying that David didn't do some of these things. What they're trying to do First and foremost, to say that it wasn't David who killed Nicole.

Yeah.

It was Natalie.

David wasn't out there alone, and he didn't do the worst of the deed.

An officer from the Virginia Tech Police Department testified that he searched an overflow parking lot on campus in connection to the missing persons search. He looked in a dumpster and saw a blue plastic glove with yellow residue on it. He also looked through a blue dumpster with a plastic Walmart bag and a bleach bottle inside. And I don't know what you would make of those things, right, without any context to go with it. Now, obviously down the road later on, those things might mean something different. Yeah,

if you can remember that.

But at the time, okay, a blue plastic glove, a plastic Walmart bag with a bottle of bleach in it. I mean, that could be anything from anyone, could have nothing to do with anything.

That could be my trash can right there.

Exactly. A Blacksburg officer testified that he collected evidence that officers had previously pulled from a dumpster on the Virginia Tech campus. Those items included a wad of napkins, a cleaning wipe with a red stain, 2 rubber kitchen dishwashing gloves, And a blue latex glove. The jury also heard that a green-handled knife was found in a hole on the property at the Virginia Tech Vet School pond. A forensic science supervisor testified that David's DNA could not be ruled out from clippings of Nicole's nails. DNA collected from the tire, trunk, and backseat of David's car, as well as a container of cleaning wipes and a shovel belonged to Nicole. There was blood on all of these items. The blood on the cleaning gloves, including the ones collected at Virginia Tech, also turned out to belong to Nicole.

Well, this is not going to be good for David or Natalie.

No, they're in it together, but to what degree, right? What role did each of them play? And I think the defense is wise enough to know they can't get out from under all All of this, the best they can do is shift the majority of the blame onto Natalie. A forensic scientist testified that he found 7 latent prints on a container of cleaning wipes. 5 out of the 7 belonged to David. 2 prints were of poor quality. There were 3 prints on a shovel, 2 belonging to Natalie. The 3rd print was not identifiable. 4 of Natalie's prints were also found on a bleach bottle. On the Walmart bag found in the Virginia Tech dumpster, 3 prints were found and they all belonged to Natalie. On the 4th day of the trial, David pleaded no contest to first-degree murder, abduction, and concealing a body. On June 26th, 2018, David Eisenhower was sentenced to 50 years in prison And 25 years probation.

It's a, uh, healthy amount.

It is. Now, we don't know at what point he would be up for parole, but you think about it, you know, an 18-year-old, or however old he is at the time of sentencing, to think you could possibly spend the next 50 years of your life in prison.

He was 18 when the crime was committed. Say by the time He goes off. Yeah, he'd be almost 70 years old, right?

Yeah. If he spent the whole time in.

Yeah.

But by entering a no contest plea, David waived his right to an appeal. And that can sometimes be a big thing.

Sure.

Right. Not only to the prosecution, but to the victim's family as well. We've heard for years how tough those appeals can be on the family. Not to mention all the different, you know, hearings and, and all of that that they have to show up to. So with this, you, you get rid of all that.

Well, and you're going to tie them up in prison for a long time.

Yeah, absolutely. At the sentencing hearing, Nicole's parents described the effect their daughter's murder had on them. David Lovell said, He was diagnosed with severe depression and PTSD. Tammy Weeks Dowdy said she sees a grief counselor and has trouble sleeping. She celebrated what would have been Nicole's 16th birthday at her graveside. Man, you feel horrible for them. It can't be easy for anyone.

No.

To lose a child, but to lose one in this way, right? This is not an illness. that suddenly springs up and, and claims a life, that would be tough enough. This is another human being making the decision to kill your 13-year-old child. Not just one, 2 human beings, right? Mm-hmm. The defense called 2 teachers and a former classmate from Yakima, Washington, where David lived before his family moved to Columbia, Maryland. Both teachers said David was a smart and kind student, but appeared to have trouble following social cues. His 10th grade English teacher said David needed clear rules to be successful and would follow someone off a cliff if they convinced him it was the right thing to do. 2 mental health professionals testified that Natalie orchestrated the crimes and David wouldn't have wanted to kill Nicole. Without her influence. Psychiatrist David Scheiderer, who didn't speak in person with either defendant, said David showed no signs of psychopathy, but he believed Natalie is a psychopath. He said in court, as quoted by news outlet WSLS, I think Keepers was the mastermind. I think she's the driver of the process. I think she found someone that she can manipulate.

So this is kind of interesting from an individual who didn't speak to either one of these people.

Right. Just an observation.

Just observation, I guess, from maybe the trial. Clinical neuropsychologist Joette James, who had 3 sessions with David, testified that David has autism spectrum disorder. She believed Natalie had an ability to influence him. Although David has an IQ of 123, he scored low on tests for emotional intelligence.

That can happen.

It definitely can. But what's interesting here, Gibbs, to me is that you have a number of people who are saying, number one, David is easily influenced, and number two, that Natalie had the ability And for some people saying did influence him to kill Nicole. On cross-examination, prosecutor Patrick Jensen noted that David wasn't influenced by law enforcement who interviewed him immediately after his arrest, and he lied to them multiple times. David also spoke at sentencing saying, I'm sorry for the pain my actions have caused Nicole Lovell and her family. It is my deepest regret. And I'm aware my actions have consequences. Nothing can ever undo what has been done. And for that, I'm deeply, sincerely, and forever sorry.

I always find it strange when they say my actions, instead of just saying what it was. I'm sorry that I killed your daughter. Or I'm sorry that I was part of the murder of your daughter. I mean, I just feel like when you say, I'm sorry for my actions, are you trying to limit what you actually did?

Or are you trying to just encompass everything? Because it would be hard to list everything out.

Yeah.

So by saying my actions, you're taking everything into account. I don't know. I don't know. I think what's most important here for me is that the prosecutor saying, All right, everybody is saying David was easily influenced, but he obviously wasn't influenced by law enforcement. He didn't go along with what they said. In fact, he argued with them, he lied to them multiple times, and then at sentencing, he's basically coming out and saying, yeah, I did this and I'm sorry for it. He's not saying I'm sorry for what Natalie did.

Nope.

He's not saying I'm sorry for what Natalie made me do. On August 14th, 2018, Natalie Keepers pleaded guilty to concealing Nicole's body. Natalie's trial for accessory before the fact began on September 18th, 2018. Prosecutors argued that Natalie was closely involved in the planning of the murder. She helped him buy a shovel, helped him pick out a spot to commit the murder, and texted him about their plans. The defense argued that Natalie believed the talk about murder was just a fantasy. A combination of mental disorders made her prone to being easily coerced and manipulated to please other people. The jury watched several videos of Natalie's interviews. In one video, Natalie gave a detailed account of how David stabbed Nicole to death. She said, as quoted by WHSV 3, He wanted me there to help. He wanted me to help kill her. However, David drove her to Virginia Tech before the killing and she went to her dorm room. She was not present for the stabbing. This is all according to her, obviously.

Right.

She also told police that she and David talked about different ways to kill Nicole. She said, he was bouncing so many ideas off my head, I couldn't keep track of them all. He was the one who officially developed the plan. Natalie also described David's messages to her on the Kick app. According to Natalie, yeah, he would say, off her, kill the bitch, kill her. Natalie said about David, there was no emotion. He became a sociopath. He thought of me as his sociopath in training, I guess.

So she's holding to her guns. I wasn't there. I didn't kill her. I didn't plan this.

And all the stuff we did talk about, I thought that was all just kind of fantasy talk, right? I didn't think he was really gonna do it. Now let's keep in mind, she's fighting for her freedom as well. Not as serious of charges as what David faced, but you know, still serious charges. The defense called forensic neuropsychologist Dr. Jonathan Mack. As their first witness, Mack was allowed to present his diagnosis of Natalie, but the effects of the diagnosis had to be presented to the jury in a way that pertained to individuals with those disorders. Mack examined Natalie a couple of months after her arrest. He interviewed her for several hours and performed multiple tests. According to Mack, Natalie has 6 types of mental disorders. Depersonalization, derealization disorder, which are classified as dissociative disorders, post-traumatic stress disorder, borderline personality disorder, dependent and schizotypal disorder, panic disorder, and persistent depressive disorder.

Well, that's a lot.

That's a lot going on. Some of those I've heard of, some of those I haven't. According to Mack, a person with borderline personality disorder would have extreme impairment in their sense of self and would be emotionally numb. This diagnosis may cause an individual to fight to feel anything, including self-mutilation. These individuals often make threats to kill themselves but do not follow through with the act. Dependent personality disorder may cause individuals to be overly dependent. on other people, and they could be easily manipulated. People with borderline personality and schizotypal disorder shift between fantasy and reality. A person with all of these diagnoses together could be easily coerced and manipulated to please other people or to earn others' love while having difficulty discerning what is real.

And this is what the defense really wants to get in front of the jury.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is a professional who is helping to bolster and at the same time, right, mitigate. The final defense witness was 18-year-old Bailey Browning. She testified that she met David Eisenhower in an online chat room from December 2015 to January 2016. They communicated through the Kick app. David told her about his plans to kill a girl. Now, he never mentioned Natalie Keepers. However, he told her he was discussing his plans with a friend who had, quote, military knowledge. He never shared the friend's name or gender. Again, I guess, you know, a lot of people chat with other people online, but why are you telling someone you meet online that you're planning to kill someone?

Yeah, I mean, if you actually plan on doing this, why would you ever want to put it out there like that?

In closing arguments, Commonwealth Attorney Patrick Jensen said that Natalie helped David plan the murder. Her statements to police were reliable because they were corroborated by the physical evidence, surveillance photos of David and Natalie buying a shovel, and the GPS coordinates. Showing her helping David pick out a spot to commit murder. The texts between Natalie and David prove she aided in the plot to kill. The defense urged the jury to focus on reasonable doubt. Defense attorney Chris Olin read statements from Natalie's initial interrogation. Natalie said she didn't think David would actually kill that girl and she was just playing along with his fantasy. Because Natalie didn't know Nicole, she had no motive to kill her. Natalie loved being part of the plan, not because it was a plan to murder, but because it was a plan to be close to David. Olin argued that playing along was not the same as shared intent. And it's a fascinating argument, and it does kind of go back to a theory that you had. that possibly she was either in love with David or wanted to be with him, wanted to be closer to him, and that's maybe why she did what she did.

Yeah.

But here's the one problem I have with it, Gibbs. He said, you know, playing along is not the same as shared intent, and I get that, but at a certain point, doesn't this have to go To an extent that is much more than just, quote, playing along. You're buying the shovel. You're picking out a spot. This is not role play.

No.

At a certain point. And she had to have known that.

Yeah, she had to know it's real. It's going to happen. And I better do something about it, or otherwise I'm going to be a part of

it. On September 20th, 2018, Natalie Keeper was found guilty of being accessory before the fact of first-degree murder. The following day, the jury recommended 40 years in prison. And on November 27th, 2018, Natalie Keepers was sentenced to 45 years in prison. She received 40 years for accessory before the fact and 5 years for concealing a body. The 5 years were suspended. And she'll spend 10 years on probation after being released.

I mean, she only got 10 years less than David.

That's what I thought. Now, I'm not saying what she did was right in any way, but it did seem like there was more than 10 years worth of difference in what they were charged with and convicted of. He was convicted of first-degree murder and only got 10 years more than she did. But there's no doubt she played a big role in it.

Because he got 55 or did he get 50?

I think he got 50 with 25 years of parole.

Okay. And she got 45 with 10 years of parole.

And 5 years suspended.

5 years suspended.

So really she got 40.

Yeah. Okay.

I don't know. I just thought there would have been a bigger chasm.

I would have thought so too.

Between the two. And I'd argue that he easily could have got life. Maybe life with parole or maybe life without parole. It was first-degree murder.

And maybe that's why he did the deal.

Yeah. And that's, you know, something that I'm glad you brought up. The plea in that instance probably helped him quite a bit. Natalie said at her sentencing, as quoted by 48 Hours, I wish I could have stopped him. I never intended for this to happen. But could she not have stopped him, right? During that month of planning, could she not have called the police? Could she not have alerted someone?

When you say, I didn't plan this to happen, what did you think was going to happen?

Well, fantasy role-playing, according to her.

Yeah,

if you buy that, but I don't. You know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, Nicole Lovell Didn't have an easy childhood. We talked about it, not because of a bad family life per se. She had, you know, medical issues. She went through a lot, and her life was tragically cut short at just 13 years old. David Eisenhower engaged in an inappropriate online and in-person relationship with Nicole. He lured her From her home and murdered her, then disposed of her body with the help of his accomplice, Natalie Keepers, to avoid exposing the relationship. Nicole's case highlights the dangers of the internet and messaging apps for children and young teens. And I definitely think it does that. It shines a spotlight on just exactly how bad things can go.

Well, this is about as bad as it can get.

Yeah. Do you really know who you're talking to online? And especially if you're deciding to meet up with people. And in Natalie's case, you know, she was only 13. She's meeting up with an 18-year-old. Again, I don't wanna blame her in any way. I blame David because he was the one who should have known better and should have known this was something that should not happen.

Exactly.

But then what? He got scared because he knew all those things he had done were wrong, and he made the decision that he was going to kill Nicole to make sure that she never was able to out him.

Yes, because that would have not been good for him.

No, it wouldn't have been.

Now, you can argue that if he didn't do all this and she did out him, maybe he would have received, what, 10 years? Oh,

I have no idea what, what the sentence would have been.

But it would have been a fraction of what he got.

Yeah, it wouldn't have been anywhere close to, to 50 years. But then also what fascinated me about this case was that this Natalie Keepers kind of Just goes along with all this.

Yeah.

And is an integral part in the planning and carrying out of everything.

I think it was said at one point, she might have been excited about it.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's a shocker. No doubt about it. But that's it for our episode on Nicole Lovell. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

Let's hear it.

Hello, my name is Laura. I'm calling from the Grooming Cottage in Washington, New Jersey. I just have to say that I grew up in Cranford, New Jersey, and my mom is all from the area her whole life. I had her listen to the Don List story, and because growing up in the area, knowing the story from when it happened, she was blown away by the amount of details and facts that she never heard of or knew, and she was very impressed. And we're from Cranford, which is the next town over from Westfield. And I was very impressed. Thank you so much, guys.

Well, thank you very much for the voicemail. And that, that means a lot to us. You know, we do strive hard to get as many details in as, as we can and be right as much as we can.

Absolutely. It's not always easy.

No, you can't always accomplish it, but you can do your best. But those types of voicemails obviously make us feel good. Yes,

sir.

Appreciate it very much. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike

and Gibby,

stay safe and keep your own time ticking.